NOMINATION OF JOHN N. MCMAHON TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 62
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 21, 2007
• Sequence Number: 3
• Publication Date: May 26, 1982
• Content Type: REPORT

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NOMINATION OF JOHN N. McMAHON
HEARING
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
NINETY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
NOMINATION OF JOHN N. MCMAHON TO BE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
95-3060 WASHINGTON : 1982
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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona, Chairman
DANIEL P. MOYNIHAN, New York, Vice Chairman
JAKE GARN, Utah
JOHN H. CHAFEE, Rhode Island
RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana
MALCOLM WALLOP, Wyoming
DAVID DURENBERGER, Minnesota
WILLIAM V. ROTH, JR.., Delaware
HARRISON H. SCHMITT, New Mexico
HOWARD H. BAKER, Ja.,
ROBERT C. BYRD, West
WALTER D. HUDDLESTON, Kentucky
JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., Delaware
DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
LLOYD BENTSEN, Texas
Tennessee, Ex Officio Member
Virginia, Ex Officio Member
ROBERT R. SIMMONS, Staff Director
ABRAM N. SHULSKY, Minority Staff Director
DoRTHEA ROBERSON, Chief Clerk
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CONTENTS
Page
Opening statement of Chairman Goldwater--------------------------- 1
Statement of Senator Moynihan_____________________________________ 2
Statement of John N. McMahon----------------------------------- 2
Statement of Senator Chafee---------------------------------------- 5
Statement of Senator Leahy---------------------------------------- 6
THURSDAY, MAY 27, 1982
Opening statement of Chairman Goldwater___________________________ 8
Prepared statement -------------------------------------------- 9
Statement of Hon. Charles McC. Mathias, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Maryland------------------------------------------------------ 9
Statement of Senator Moynihan_____________________________________ 10
Prepared statement__________________________________________ 10
Statement of Senator Huddleston____________________________________ 12
Prepared statement____________________________________________ 12
Statement of Senator Roth----------------------------------------- 13
Statement of Senator Leahy ----------------------------------------- 13
Testimony of John N. McMahon____________________________________ 14
Financial statement-------------------------------------------- 16
Ethics Committee report_______________________________________ 36
Statement of Senator Inouye_______________________________________ 36
House support -----------------support---------------------------------------------------- 88
Letter to Senator Goldwater from Congressman Boland________________ 38
Letter to Senator Goldwater from Congressman Robinson-------------- 39
Statement of Senator Wallop________________________________________ 39
Prepared statement____________________________________________ 41
Committee Questioning____________________________________________ 43
Duties of Deputy Director______________________________________ 50
Recruitment Process___________________________________________ 51
FOIA Legislation needed_______________________________________ 52
Sharing of Information----------------------------------------- 52
Thorough Background Review__________________________________ 53
Statement of Senator Biden----------------------------------------- 54
Prepared statement-------------------------------------------- 54
Statement of Senator Bentsen_______________________________________ 57
Statement of Senator Chafee----------------------------------------- 57
Unanimous approval----------------------------------------------- 57
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NOMINATION OF JOHN N. MeMAHON TO BE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE
WEDNESDAY, MAY 26, 1982
U.S. SENATE,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:32 o'clock a.m., in
room S-407, the Capitol, the Honorable Barry Goldwater (chairman
of the committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Goldwater (presiding), Chafee, Moynihan, Hud-
dleston, Jackson, and Leahy.
Also present: Rob Simmons, staff director; Abram Shulsky, minor-
ity staff director; Victoria Toensing, majority counsel; Peter Sulli-
van, minority counsel; Dorthea Roberson, clerk of the committee; and
Dan Finn, Herb Kline, John Elliff, Ed Levine, William Working,
Sam Bouchard, Michael Mattingly, Ellen Burkhardt, Robin Cleve-
land, Diane Branagan, Stephen Flanagan, Jean Evans, Evelyn
Chavoor, Dan Childs, Spencer Davis, Tom Connolly, Gary Schmitt,
Angelo Codevilla, Larry Kettlewell, Michael Epstein, Ed Brynn, Bob
Butterworth, Lot Cooke, and Ben Marshall, staff members.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN GOLDWATER
The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order.
I have a short statement.
The Senate Intelligence Committee is meeting today in closed ses-
sion to consider the nomination of John N. McMahon to be the Deputy
Director of Central Intelligence.
This is a very important position and first off, I would like to
congratulate you, Mr. McMahon.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. For being nominated to this high position in the
intelligence community. I understand you joined the CIA in 1951 as
a GS-5. You have been kind of busy since then.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. John McMahon has had a very distinguished 31-
year career with the CIA. The purpose of today's closed hearing is to
give the committee a chance to review his career in detail without
compromising sensitive sources and methods or classified informa-
tion. Tomorrow we will have an open session beginning at 10:30 a.m.
in room 5110 of the Dirksen Building, where the public and press
will have a chance to look at him and hear him speak.
Because we will have to be a bit more careful about what we say
tomorrow, I would urge my colleagues to ask all their sensitive ques-
tions today. Also, if any members have detailed questions regarding
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covert action, I would ask that they hold them until the end of today's
session and we'll clear most of the staff before asking him to respond
to these questions.
John, we won't ask you to give your formal statement today unless
you want to practice it.
Mr. MOMAHON. No, sir, that's fine. I pass.
The CHAIRMAN. I think it is best that we just start off with our
questions unless you or one of my colleagues would like to say a few
words. Pat ?
STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOYNIHAN
Senator MoYNrgAN. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think it would be helpful to hear Mr. McMahon for a bit, if he
would just talk about this assignment. It is not the culmination but it
certainly is, for a career intelligence officer, there is only one position
higher that you could hold, and in normal circumstances the highest
position you could aspire to would be the Deputy position.
I wonder if I could ask you two things randomly. First of all, how
do you think things are going and what would you plan to do differ-
ently at the Agency and in the community, and then I would like you
to talk about your sense of the relations that you expect to have with
our committee and our counterpart with the House.
I don't mean to press you, but I think it would be-I just would be
interested to hear you.
STATEMENT OF JOHN N. McMAHON, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE
Mr. McMAHON. Yes, sir, I would be happy to respond to that.
I think that the community is on a footmg right now which shows
great promise. As you recall, Admiral Inman was very instrumental
in devising and also selling both in the executive branch as well as in
the Congress the 1985 capabilities study which laid out for the first
time in the intelligence community a roadmap of where we ought to go.
That study addressed what we estimated would be the problems con-
fronting the intelligence community in the outyears, 1985-90, then
assessed our capabilities to meet those problems and out of that cor-
relation came where the gaps were. And those gaps drove the various
program managers in the intelligence community to build a request for
resources to address them.
So I think we now have a roadmap and a yardstick by which to
work, and we are satisfied that we have a fair appreciation of the
intelligence problems which will be confronting us, what our policy-
makers will be seeking from us, and we can build accordingly.
I think the morale throughout the intelligence community, and par-
ticularly in CIA, is very high at the moment. As far as my ability to
assess all that, I think I have a fair, broad background to address all
aspects of the intelligence problem, and that stems not only from my
exposure in the Agency in all four directorates within the Agency,
but also the experience I have encountered in the IC staff, first as
the Deputy to Admiral Murphy when he was the Deputy DCI for
the intelligence community, and then afterward for almost a year as
the Acting Deputy to the DCI for the intelligence community. And
in that phase I was able to get a fair appreciation of the military
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3
needs that confront us as well as the needs of the overall policymakers,
both in the economic and political side of the house, as well as the
military.
So my background as depicted on my vitae does suggest that I
should be well equipped if I have prospered and waxed well and strong
in those positions to address the problems which will confront a Deputy
Director of Central Intelligence.
Senator MOYNIHAN. And you say morale is good in the community?
Did it take-were there troubles? Good compared to what?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir. If you take a look at the record throughout
the entire intelligence community, the past 10 years have been a draw-
down. It has been a drawdown of manpower and dollar resources so
that the constant dollar line was always down.
If you took, for instance, just our operational directorate in CIA,
[classified testimony deleted].
And the CIA as well as the other members of the intelligence com-
munity were constantly on the defensive to argue why they should
exist because the resource crunch was al nays upon us. That fact, plus
the
Senator MOYNIHAN. If I could just interrupt just in a friendly way,
there wasn't any resource crunch in those years. People were just-the
decision was made to give less money to the Agency.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes. As far as the intelligence agencies were con-
cerned, we didn't have the resources, and as a result, the program man-
agers, and in fact, any manager within the intelligence community
was constantly confronted with a tradeoff. When a crisis came up or
another higher priority intelligence need came up, he had to take
resources from one good thing and put it on that new one, and that
has a debilitating effect on a manager who wants to try and cover all
the bets that he feels are important.
We also felt that because we were in an downward trend, in a re-
trenchment, that no one liked intelligence, and you can well recall,
Senator Moynihan, that we did go through some very dark ages in
the 1974-75 timeframe, and that had a lasting effect and a very chill-
ing effect among our people and when that was coupled with not
having enough resources to do the job that we saw should be done, then
that had a morale impact, and as you recall out at the Agency, we did
have this RIF and that further sent a chilling effect throughout the
Agency.
So the Agency indeed was down in.1978, and I think since then we
have begun a rebuild, and a great deal of credit for that rebuild belongs
to Congress because Congress led the charge to give the resources, both
manpower and money, to the Agency and to the intelligence com-
munity to start that rebuild, and we now have been blessed in the last
fiscal year, and it looks like from all indications, out of our author-
izing committees, for the next fiscal year, a rebuild which will begin
to put us back on track.
And that confidence which Congress has shown to us has been a
great boost in the morale and the spirit of people in the intelligence
community.
Senator MOYNIHAN. I am glad you think that. I mean, it is at least
arguably the case that the Intelligence Committee has provided a
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relationship which has enabled this to happen, one in the absence of
which might not have happened.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
I failed to answer another question that you raised, Senator, and
your comment reminded me of that, and that is the relationship of the
oversight which I feel is essential to any organization that must con-
duct its activities in secret. I think the American people deserve that,
but more importantly, the agencies deserve that. I for one, as an indi-
vidual who ha; had to testify before the oversight committees, drew
a great deal of comfort knowing that I was sharing with them, with
the representatives of the American peop)e, our programs and what
we were up to, and that comfort was derived not only from the beauty
that exists in that coexistence between the two branches, but more
importantly, it was a protection. It was a protection to me as an indi-
vidual and it was a protection to the institutions to know that Con-
gress was a joint partner in these programs.
And I feel that oversight is a vital part of our existence in the intelli-
gence world and welcome it. In fact, I was mentioning to the staff.
director the other day that back in 1963 or 1964 when I was at a far
lower position in the Agency, I suggested that the Agency seek an
oversight committee and I did it not for the comfort of oversight-
in fact, oversight did not even cross my mind in the manner in which
I know it today-but what I was looking for was an advocate because
we had no one beating the bushes up on the Hill for us. We were left
without a father, so to speak, and I wanted an oversight committee
much like the Joint Atomic Energy Committee, so that someone up
on the Hill who understood and appreciated us could carry our message
to the rest of Congress.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Well, that is a very reassuring thing to hear.
As you know, you are in the former hearing room of the Joint
Committee on Atomic Energy. There are no windows where Russians
can spy on us.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Mr. MOYNIHAN. One last question, if I can, Mr. Chairman, Senator
Chafee, Senator Huddleston.
Could I ask you, sir, knowing how you feel on the value of this
relationship and how you feel about some of the results, you know
that on our part it is in some sense a dependent relationship. We have
to be able to believe that everything that we need to know you will
tell us. We have no independent sources of information. We have to
trust--we have to have a relationship of trust which in fact is war-
ranted. And that is the most difficult thing to be sure of. We have a
responsibility which at some levels we don't have fully the capacity
to carry out, only to make judgments about, and sort of the nodal
points in this process are when persons such as yourself and Mr. Casey
come along and are appointed, and I would like to put to you then this
question.
Can this committee count on your sense of responsibility as deputy
in this whole system, as the No. 2 man in American intelligence?
Can we feel that if you ever learned that wrong information is being
given to this committee either by superiors or inferiors, that the com-
mittee is being misinformed or misled-that can mean two different
things, people telling us things that are not so, who are not themselves
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necessarily aware that they are not so, but also persons telling us some-
thing that they know not to be the case but they are not being forth-
right, wishing in fact to mislead-would you consider it a matter of
personal honor and professional responsibility to tell this committee
that that was happening?
Mr. McMAHON. Yes, sir, under both circumstances, under both pro-
visions, I should say, as a personal obligation as well as a professional
one. I cannot imagine anyone in the intelligence community in a posi-
tion of responsibility ever attempting to mislead or misconstrue facts
or events to Congress. To me that is anathema to our way of life, and
if it did happen, I would think that it was done out of oversight and
feel totally free to correct the record.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Fine. I thought that would be your answer.
I just want to make one final thought, and that is it is not your job
and ought never to be your job not to imagine something bad
happening.
Mr. McMAHON. I stand corrected, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. John?
Senator CHAFEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to pursue that thought a bit, Mr. McMahon. Our prob-
lem, as you realize, perhaps, is that we are up here supporters of the
Agency, anxious to see it succeed in its job, but to a great degree, to a
tremendous degree dependent upon what you tell us. People say is any-
thing going on out in the Agency that is contrary to law now, and I
firmly answer no, that we are staying on top of things. But we are stay-
ing on top of things because we meet with you and the Director and
others frequently, but if we are being deceived or misled or-and those
always are possibilities, but the more likely possibility, it seems to me,
is neither of those but just not being given full information, not being
given bad information, but just not being given enough information,
and if that should occur, we really are out on the end of a limb, a limb
which, if sawed off, will take us down, but I guarantee it will take you
with us.
And so it is of tremendous importance that you tell us the good
and the bad. We don't expect everything always to be going right over
there. We expect, problems. We have had those experiences. We know
that. And as long as we know, we will do our best, obviously, to work
with you and solve all the problems.
So that is what we really have to have from you in your position,
complete candor with us up here.
Mr. MCMAHON. I certainly subscribe to that, Senator Chafee, and
will abide by the instructions to keep Congress fully and currently
informed.
I can see that the only failings there might be are ones of judgments,
certainly not intent.
Senator CHAFEE. Now, how do you address the problem that some
associated with intelligence activities for some time raise that for the
first time-you can correct me, I may be wrong, but we now have two
civilians in the top jobs as opposed to the traditional-and I'm not say-
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ing it's always been so, but the usual form of having a civilian and a
military in the two top jobs.
First the question is have they ever had two civilians before ?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir, when the Vice President, George Bush, was
the DCI, his Deputy was a CIA civilian, Hank Knocl.e. 1 believe that
tenure was somewhere between 6 months and a year.
Senator CHAFEE. But outside of that, it has always been -
Mr. MC1VIAHON. Either a military or retired military in one of the
jobs.
Senator CHAFES. Now, how do we handle the suggestion that it is not
wise to deviate from that system? Why are you any different?
Mr. MCMAHON. Well, I think Congress in its wisdom, back in 1947,
suggested that the Agency could have two civilians in the top but not
two military, and I am quite pleased with that foresight that Congress
had. [General laughter.]
The greatest concern and problem I see there, Senator Chafee, is
with the operational military. The operational military commander
in the field has to have confidence that someone back in the DCI arena
is worried about his concerns and his needs. Now, fortunately I have
been exposed to them for a number of years. I have been in national
programs beginning in 1959 which involved me very deeply in not
only military operations but also the requirements by which we were
driven to conduct those operations. And so I have an appreciation of
what the military needs are. And that appreciation was further honed
during my tenure in the IC staff when the needs of the theater com-
manders were very much in the forefront of our national programs
and I would venture to say, if you look at our technical collection
systems [classified testimony deleted].
So I for one am confident I can represent the military requirement.
I have also, as a result of the President's nomination, received a host
of laudatory congratulations from military commanders and partic-
ularly military intelligence officers, and I have to feel that those con-
gratulations are genuine, and therefore they feel that I will represent
their interests. [Classified testimony deleted.]
Senator LEAHY. I'll withhold that question.
Let me ask one basic question, and I would prefer doing this in a
closed session rather than out in the open, I mean this type of a closed
session because it is the sort of question that simply by asking it I
can see the heyday the press may have, and I have no problems with
Mr. McMahon's credentials. I think they are very significant ones.
In fact, when you look at his background I am constantly impressed
that we have people within our Government who with all the other
problems of Government service, even outside an agency like the CIA
and adding on the further difficult problems of lifestyle and every-
thing else that go with the Agency, I think we are very fortunate to
have people who will have a background like yours, that are willing
to stay, certainly not for either fame or fortune, I might say, but out
of a sense of loyalty to the country, and to stay and to develop that
kind of background.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Senator.
Senator LEAHY. And I think certainly a number of people that you
know in your Agency we could say the same about.
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Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Senator LEAHY. The question I have is, in your position as Deputy
Director of CIA you are going to have to be in a unique position of
policymaking and carrying out policy, but also the political one of
having to deal with our committee and the House committee and the
kind of unique oversight that we have created during the past few
years.
If you are aware that others in the CIA, whether the Director of
the CIA or anybody else, had given us misinformation, either inten-
tionally or negligently on matters that come within our jurisdiction,
would you correct the testimony that had been given to us?
Mr. MCMAHoN. Yes, sir, I would either correct it or cause it to be
corrected by those who gave the erroneous information.
Senator LEAHY. Whether that was given by somebody over or under
you?
Mr. MCMAHON. I can't imagine anyone over me doing that. I can't
imagine anyone doing that purposely, but I would certainly correct
the record.
Senator MOYNIHAN. If you recall my remark, I asked a parallel
question, if I could ask the Senator to yield for a moment, and Mr.
McMahon said he couldn't imagine such a thing happening, and I said
that he is not in the business of not imagining bad things happening.
That is sort of asking it the other way around.
Mr. MCMAHON. I would correct the record, Senator.
Senator LEAHY. I don't mean to embarrass you or anybody else in
asking the question, but it is one that is essential.
I might say, incidentally, I would ask this question of anybody up
for confirmation in this position, whether in this administration,
subsequent administrations as long as I am on this committee, irrespec-
tive of who is Director of the CIA or anybody else, I will ask this
same question of somebody coming for confirmation as Director or as
Deputy Director, and the question will be asked by me as long as I
am on the committee, so I don't intend to single out you or anybody
else in asking it.
Mr. MCMAHON. I don't think an oversight committee can expect
anything less.
Senator LEAHY. I agree with you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Senator Jackson.
[Classified testimony deleted.]
[Whereupon, at 11:22 a.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
immediately for the consideration of other matters.]
[Classified testimony deleted.]
Senator MOYNIHAN. I think you are going to make it tomorrow. We
will go over a good deal of this ground in a somewhat sanitized way,
but I hope you will be prepared, on issues of your philosophy, on serv-
ice in the intelligence community, to speak with the candor that you
have spoken today.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Senator MOYNIHAN. I think that will be good. It will be good for
the Agency.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Whereupon, at 12:14 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene in
open session at 10:30 a.m., Thursday, May 27, 1982.]
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U.S. SENATE,
SELECT COMMrrrEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:29 a.m., in room 5110,
Dirksen Senate Office Building, the Honorable Barry Goldwater
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Goldwater (presiding), Moynihan (vice chair-
man), Chafee, Wallop, Roth, Huddleston, Biden, Leahy, and Bentsen.
Also present: Rob Simmons, staff director; Abram Shulsky, minor-
ity staff director; Victoria Toensing, majority counsel; Peter Sullivan,
minority counsel; Dorthea Roberson, clerk of the committee; and
professional staff members.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN GOLDWATER
The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order.
The Senate Intelligence Committee meets in open session today to
consider the nomination of John N. McMahon to be Deputy Director
of Central Intelligence.
With 31 years of service in the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr.
McMahon certainly has the background to do a good job. I believe that
he is a top-notch professional who is highly regarded within the intel-
ligence community. His nomination should have a positive effect on
morale within this community.
All of Mr. McMahon's working life has been spent at the CIA where
he accumulated a distinguished record. During that time he served in
all phases of CIA operations including top jobs in electronic intel-
ligence, technical services, administration, operations, and analysis.
John, you will have a tough job because you will be replacing an
unusual man in Admiral Inman whom I consider to be one of the
best intelligence officers I have ever known. We were lucky to have
Admiral Inman. Nonetheless, I am pleased that someone with your
qualifications and experience has been nominated for this post.
You have been before us previously to testify on different things,
so you are no stranger to us. Yesterday you testified before our com-
mittee in closed session on a number of sensitive intelligence issues
which we could not address in open session. You were very candid in
that session. I have no doubts that we can expect a good relationship
with you in the future as DDCI, to the benefit of our people and of the
country.
John, would you please stand? You have to be sworn in.
Raise your right hand.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MCMAHON. I do.
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The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.
I believe Senator Mathias would like to introduce you. That will
have no deleterious effect upon your nomination. [General laughter.]
Mac, you can go ahead.
Senator MATHIAS. That is the first time that Senator Goldwater
has ever endorsed a note for me.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is all right. I will not say any more.
You can introduce John.
[The prepared statement of Chairman Barry Goldwater follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN BARRY GOLDWATER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
THE STATE OF ARIZONA
The meeting will come to order.
? The Senate Intelligence Committee meets in open session today to consider
the nomination of John N. McMahon to be Deputy Director of Central
Intelligence.
With 31 years of service at the Central Intelligence Agency, Mr. McMahon
certainly has the background to do a good job. I believe that he is a top-notch
professional who's highly regarded within the Intelligence Community. His
nomination should have a positive effect on morale within this community.
All of Mr. McMahon's working life has been spent at the CIA where he
accumulated a distinguished record. During that time, he served in all phases
of CIA operations including top jobs in electronic intelligence, technical serv-
ices, administration, operations and analysis.
John, you will have a tough job because you will be replacing an unusual man
in Admiral Inman, whom I consider to be the best intelligence officer I have
known. We were lucky to have Admiral Inman. Nonetheless, I am pleased that
someone with your qualifications and experience has been nominated for this
post.
You have been before us previously to testify on different things, so you are
no stranger to us. Yesterday, you testified before our Committee in closed session
on a number of sensitive intelligence issues which we could not address in open
session. You were very candid in that session. I have no doubts that we can
expect a good relationship with you in the future as DDCI, to the benefit of
our people and of the country.
Congratulations on your nomination.
John, this is a solemn occasion and before you begin your statement, I would
like to swear you in. (Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?)
Now you may begin your statement unless one of my colleagues, or Senator
Mathias, would like to say a few words. I understand that Mac wants to
introduce you because you live in the fine State of Maryland.
STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES McC. MATHIAS, A U.S. SENATOR
FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND
Senator MATHIAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think it, is no secret to the chairman or to other members of the
committee that I personally have a strong preference for professional-
ism in Government service. I think we do better in diplomacy when we
have professional diplomats. I think that in many of the highly tech-
nical fields of Government, professionals can do a better job simply
on the basis of training and experience and maturity.
I would say, Mr. Chairman-and this is a conclusion I have come
to somewhat painfully over a long period of years-that even in the
Congress we do better with professionals. But we do not always. get
them.
And so it is a particular pleasure to me to present to the committee,
not to introduce to the committee because you already know him, but
to present to the committee a professional.
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10
My own knowledge of John McMahon goes hack over a number of
years to my service on the Select Committee on Intelligence, and prior
to that, as a member of the Intelligence Investigating Committee, when
I served with the chairman. So I know him well, and I know he is a
professional and that he values the standard of excellence which ought
to characterize the Central Intelligence Agency. That is not an agency
in which we can either be amateur or inadequate. It has to be profes-
sional, and it has to be excellent, and John McMahon, I think, will
strive to maintain those kinds of standards. He has been a member of
the Agency since 1951, which goes back, John, I guess almost to the
period in which my wife was one of you.
And so in the intervening 30 years he has had an opportunity to
observe and participate and be a part of the modern Agency, and I
think that in itself will be an enormous contribution, to provide a
thread of continuity which is so necessary in an agency as delicate and
as sensitive and as important as the CIA.
As the chairman I am sure is aware, he already holds two distin-
guished medals, the Intelligence Medal of Merit, the Certificate of
Distinction, and the Intelligence Distinguished Service Medal.
Mr. McMahon is to be congratulated on having received the Presi-
dent's nomination, the evidence of the President's confidence in him,
but I believe that President Reagan is also to be congratulated in hav-
ing the opportunity to work with John McMahon and to have the
benefit of his services and his experience.
And so, Mr. Chairman, it is with great pleasure that I do present
him to the committee as a distinguished citizen of Maryland and as a
distinguished American.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator Mathias.
I can say to you, Mr. McMahon, that you could not have a more
qualified person introduce you. He was not the father but the grand-
father of this committee and has for all the years I have served in the
Senate with him been a man deeply interested in the intelligence
family.
So we thank you, Senator Mathias, and publicly we thank you
for our new room.
Mr. McMAHON. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate Senator Mathias' con-
tribution to this committee, and I am very grateful to him for taking
the time to introduce me.
The CHAIRMAN. I think Senator Moynihan has some remarks.
Senator MATHIAS. You are on your own.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. Pat g
Senator MOYNIHAN. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement which I
would ask to be included in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Without objection.
[The prepared statement of Senator Moynihan follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
THE STATE OF NEW YORK
Mr. Chairman, I would like to join you in welcoming Mr. McMahon to our
public hearing on his nomination to be Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.
I share your admiration for the distinguished record of service to his country
which Mr. McMahon has compiled during his thirty years with the Central In-
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telligence Agency. During this period, he has won 5 significant awards and has
served in leadership positions in all four directorates of the CIA, as well as in
the Intelligence Community staff. He comes before us as highly-qualified a
candidate for the position for which he has been nominated as we are ever
likely to see.
The confirmation process is important not only because it gives the Senate a
chance to make an independent evaluation of the qualifications of the nominee,
but also because it offers a major opportunity for the exercise of the Congres-
sional oversight function. Nomination hearings enable us to take stock of where
we have been and where we are headed. During my 5% years on the Select
Committee, we have concentrated on two major tasks. First, we have estab-
lished mechanisms for Congressional oversight. Second, we have tried to provide
the resources necessary for the rebuilding of our intelligence capabilities.
In today's hearing, Mr. McMahon will tell us what he sees as the current state
of intelligence and its requirements for the future. Also, we shall question him
on his views on Congressional oversight.
A proper oversight relationship demands that the Director of Central Intelli-
gence and his Deputy be willing to provide this Committee with the information
it needs in a forthright and candid manner. During the hearings on the nomina-
tion of William J. Casey to be Director of Central Intelligence, I asked him a
question that we might ask of all nominees for that position, and for the Deputy
Directorship, as well. I put the matter as follows : "How do you feel about telling
the Committee things we need to know (that) you would just as soon not more
than two people in the world knew?"
Mr. Casey responded as follows : "Well, Senator, I intend to comply fully with
the spirit and the letter of the Intelligence Oversight Act. I intend to provide this
Committee with the information it believes it needs for oversight purposes. I
believe the detailed implementation of that general intention is something we will
work out as we go along. . . I cannot conceive now of any circumstances under
which [questions of the President's Constitutional authority] would result in my
not being able to provide this Committee with the information it requires. I would
obviously have to be subject to and discuss with the President any particular sit-
uations which I cannot now foresee, and I would do that in a way that this Com-
mittee would know about."
I am confident that Mr. McMahon's response will be equally satisfactory.
Mr. Chairman, in welcoming Mr. McMahon to this hearing, we are in a sense
welcoming an old friend, since he has appeared before us on numerous occasions
during the six years the Committee has been in existence. I have every confidence
that our relationship in the future will be as open and beneficial as it has been in
the past.
Senator MOYNIHAN. As you know, yesterday we had a very extensive
and intensive private hearing and to some extent we will be going over
that material again today. But first I just want again to welcome Mr.
McMahon, whom we have seen frequently before our committee. As he
knows from his past visits to this committee we have had two principal
tasks in the last 6 years : the first, to establish the mechanism of con-
gressional oversight of the intelligence community, something that
had not existed but which we now feel does; and the second, to provide
the resources for a community that had been running down for a long
period, which we think we have done.
We would like to hear today your opinion of the present state of
American intelligence, having especially in mind that it is the agencies
of the Intelligence Community, more than any other on which the
United States will rely for the verification of any agreements on
nuclear arms reduction we reach with the Soviets. We would like to
hear also your judgments about the future needs of the community, a
community which you have served with such great distinction for 31
years, and if I dare correct the Senator from Maryland, from which
you have received five department awards.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Are there statements by~any other members?
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12
STATEMENT OF SENATOR HUDDLESTON
Senator HUDDLESTON. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement I also would
like put into the record, and I would just indicate here, this is one of
the few times that we have an opportunity to conduct our business in
public, and we are fortunate to have a witness who has had some 30
years experience in the intelligence community. I think all of us have
some concern as to the direction we are headed as far as intelligence
operations are concerned and the responsibilities of this particular
committee. So I hope we have an opportunity to explore some of those
areas as we proceed today, and I would ask unanimous consent that
my full statement be included in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. That will be done.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Senator IIuddleston follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. WALTER D. HUDDLESTON, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
THE STATE OF KENTUCKY
Today's hearing is one of the few opportunities we have to conduct our busi-
ness in public. So I think we have a duty to discuss some of our concerns about
the intelligence community. On these issues Mr. McMahon can speak not only
as nominee for Deputy DCI, but also as the current CIA Executive Director with
thirty years' experience in the Agency.
This nomination comes at a time of increasing uneasiness about where the
intelligence community is going. If there is one thing this committee has tried
to do, it is to keep intelligence free from partisan or ideological bias.
We must be a watchdog to make sure that intelligence operations serve the
national interest. We must be alert to the danger that an administration may
seek to distort intelligence reports or slant intelligence analysis.
Equally important is our mandate to protect constitutional rights and other
basic principles of our free society.
We need to monitor the safeguards that keep U.S. intelligence activities from
violating the rights of our own citizens. And we should also try to strike a proper
balance between secrecy and the public's right to know.
On many of these counts I believe we must increase the vigilance of our over-
sight efforts. No single event leads me to this cinclusion. Rather, it is a series of
issues which, taken together, make the prospects more disturbing.
In June of 1981 the Attorney General re-asserted the old claims of so-called
"inherent power" of the President to justify FBI intelligence searches in this
country without a judicial warrant.
In September, the Attorney General revoked Justice Department guidelines
adopted after the Supreme Court decision in the Snepp case to limit the risks of
unjustified censorship.
In December, the President issued his new executive order on intelligence activ-
ities. It widened CIA's authority to operate in the United States to collect for-
eign intelligence about American citizens who are innocent of any crime and are
not suspected of being foreign agents.
The President also ordered intelligence agencies to revise their procedures for
collecting information about American citizens by such intrusive methods as
wiretapping abroad and infiltration of domestic organizations.
In April of this year, another executive order on national security information
eliminated the "identifiable damage" standard for classification and the require-
ment to take into account the public's need for information.
There have also been troubling reports of possible proposals for a new counter-
intelligence organization with authority over both the FBI and CIA.
These are some of the reasons for concern about the direction the intelligence
community is taking. They may require more than congressional oversight to
make sure the community stays on track.
For example, some of us have joined in cosponsoring Senator Durenberger's
bill to prevent the new classification order from leading to excessive government
secrecy.
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I think it may also be time to reconsider some of the intelligence charter
issues we set aside two years ago. It might make sense to think about enacting
some basic principles into law, based on our experience with the new executive
order on intelligence.
We need a permanent framework for U.S. intelligence activities that provides
general standards for operations in this country and that does not change every
time a new President takes office. It could protect the rights of Americans, and
it could help keep the intelligence community out of politics.
Senator RoTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, have a statement
that I would ask to be included in the record.'
Mr. McMahon, first, I think we are very fortunate in having an
individual of your background assume this position of responsibility.
I would just like to say that it seems to me you are coming to this job
at a time when our intelligence services are rebuilding from years of
making do with too little resources. But I am concerned lest we lose the
consensus that has been built in this Nation in support of our intelli-
gence and defense capabilities.
It seems to me extraordinarily important that the CIA not be seen
by the people of this country as a threat to their freedoms and liber-'
ties; rather, the intelligence agencies must be seen for what they are,
the guardians of our security, the unbiased advisers of our policy-
makers, so that I think someone like yourself, a career intelligence
officer in a position of leadership at CIA, can help to bring a public
realization of the contribution the CIA makes to this Nation.
Again, I think we are fortunate to have you here.
Mr. McMAHON. Thank you, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Leahy?
Senator LEAHY. Mr. Chairman, I will try to be very brief. Like
everybody else on this committee, I was sorry to see Admiral Inman
leave. I know that is also a feeling that the designee shares with us,
that Admiral Inman is an exceptional and uncommonly bright mem-
ber of the intelligence community. I accept without reservation the
reasons that Admiral Inman has given for leaving, and I understand
them.
I think the one thing that has ameliorated the regret that each of us
has had is that the President has appointed you as Admiral Inman's
replacement. I think that I also concur that this is an area where
amateurs should not tread, and professionalism is absolutely called for,
is needed, desperately needed. And certainly I cannot think of anyone
within the Agency whose background or professionalism could begin
to match yours, or anybody within the Agency better qualified for the
position.
I know, Mr. Chairman, that in earlier sessions on this, I had had
only one real question to ask. I would ask this of any nominee either
for Director of CIA or Deputy Director of CIA : Would the nominee
make sure not only that this committee was kept fully informed, but
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if this committee was given erroneous information and the nominee
was aware of it, would he come before us and correct it ? Mr. Mc-
Mahon's answers have totally satisfied the concerns that I had on that
question. As I said, I will ask that question of any nominee now or in
the future coming before us, and his answer reflected the professional-
ism 'that we would expect, that indeed, he would correct it. This is
consistent with the way you have been before us before.
I agree with the Senators before me that this is one of the rare
times we are in open session, and most of the people here never get a
chance to hear you testify. I have found your testimony to be good,
direct, straightforward. I see no reason why it would be otherwise.
And Mr. 6hairman, I commend you for having these hearings, but
I will not have to consult Jimmy the Greek to be able to predict what
the outcome will be.
Thank you.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. John, you may make your statement.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN N. McMAHON, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE
Mr. McMAHON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Members of the Select Committee on Intelligence, I am honored
to appear before you today to discuss my nomination to be Deputy
Director of Central Intelligence. I appreciate the President's expres-
sion of confidence in me, and I approach this new challenge with
enthusiasm and determination.
-=--I have, as you know, served our Nation as an intelligence officer
for over 30 years. I feel fortunate to have had a varied, rewarding and
constantly challenging career, permitting me to serve in all phases
of intelligence, from operations to analysis, from research and devel-
opment of technical collection systems to administration. Let me
briefly review it for the committee.
I began my career with the Agency as a clerk in 1951. After serving
overseas for 5 years, I returned for basic training in the Army and
I then joined the U-2 program. In 1965 I became Deputy Director
for the Agency's Office of Special Projects which was concerned with
applying the latest in advanced technology to major intelligence col-
lection problems. L Ater I served as Director of the Office of Electronic
Intelligence; and then as Director of the Office of Technical Service,
responsible for technical support to our overseas operations.
In 1974 I became Associate Deputy Director of CIA for adminis-
tration. I then served as Associate Deputy and as Acting Deputy to
the DCI for the intelligence community until being appointed Deputy
Director of CIA for Operations in January of 1978. In this capacity
I directed the Agency's overseas operations. In April of 1981 I be-
came Deputy Director for National Foreign Assessment, responsible
for directing analysis and production of intelligence. I served in that
capacity until January of this year when I was appointed as the
Agency's Executive Director, responsible for the day-to-day manage-
ment of CIA.
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15
My assignments, many of which involved joint programs with the
military, have given me both a detailed knowledge of the Central
Intelligence Agency and a substantial appreciation of military re-
quirements and intelligence needs. My 2 years with the intelligence
community staff provided me with an in-depth understanding of all
national programs, military and civilian, the priority of intelligence
requirements associated with those programs, and the best means of
satisfying intelligence needs for the policymakers as well as our mili-
tary commanders in the field.
When I joined the Agency in 1951, Mr. Chairman, we lived in an
essentially bipolar world. In those days our adversary was obvious,
our mission was clear, and our efforts were focused accordingly. The
United States worked to build the democratic institutions and eco-
nomic capabilities of its friends while the Soviet Union strove to
subvert our efforts. The risk of atomic catastrophe was just then be-
ginning to become a factor in the struggle between freedom and totali-
tarianism. We focused intelligence resources on the Soviet Union and
its allies, and we analyzed world events mainly in terms of their effect
on the East-West balance of power.
As we move through the 1980's and beyond, it is clear that the in-
telligence mission must be geared to threats which are. increasingly
varied, subtle, and complex. We can never take for granted our ability
to accurately assess the military capabilities and intentions of our key
adversaries, and the Soviet Union must remain our first intelligence
priority. At the same time, we should also insure that we appreciate
fully the broad range of political, economic, social, and religious
forces whose interaction will shape world events and influence the
destiny of our country. Finally, we should never set aside the impor-
tance of more traditional causes of international conflict such as irre-
dentism and national pride.
The ability of the intelligence community to provide national policy-
makers with the timely, accurate, and insightful information they
need to advance American interests in the world requires that we
constantly strive to improve our capabilities to collect the right kind
of information, to analyze it effectively, and to present it in a relevant
and useful manner.
We are encouraged that the mutual determination of the President
and the Congress to restore the vitality of our Nation's intelligence
community is helping us translate these goals into reality. As we do
so, however, I would like to emphasize for the record that the activities
of the intelligence community involving Americans are and must con-
tinue to be limited, subject to strict standards of accountability, and
far removed from any abridgment of cherished constitutional rights.
I am firmly convinced that congressional oversight is beneficial both
for the American people and for the intelligence committee. The over-
sight system serves two key purposes. First, it assures the American
people that activities which are of necessity undertaken in secret are
being monitored by their elected representatives. Second, it assures
the intelligence officers who undertake those activities that the Con-
gress and the American people stand behind and support them in
their difficult and often dangerous assignments.
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16
The oversight arrangements which have developed and matured
over the past several years have also served to enhance congressional
understanding of the intelligence mission and of the need for the long
range commitment of resources to meet the challenges. which lie ahead.
The cumulative impact of the annual authorization of appropriations
for intelligence activities by this committee and its counterpart in the
House of Representatives, the review conducted in great detail by the
Appropriations Committees, and the statutory obligation to keep the
two Intelligence Committees fully and currently informed has made
the Congress an active partner in our Nation's intelligence activities.
This is as it should be, and I pledge to you that it confirmed I will
make every effort to foster and improve this vital relationship.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my prepared remarks. I would be
pleased to answer any questions which you and the members of the
committee may have.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. McMahon.
Before we start the questioning, I have a few insertions to make.
Rule 5.6 of the rules of procedure for our committee states that "No
nomination shall be reported to the Senate unless the nominee has filed
a background and financial disclosure statement with the committee."
John McMahon has filed both of these statements with the commit-
tee. Copies of these statements are available to Senators in tab D of
their briefing books, and I ask that the unclassified sections of these
statements be inserted into the record of this hearing.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Mr. Chairman, could I ask you to yield long
enough for me to state that if anyone would like to know what it means
to be a professional career intelligence officer in this country, they
would do well to read the financial disclosure statement of Mr.
McMahon, which consists of 30 blank pages. [General laughter.]
Mr. MCMAHON. There's a tin cup at the end of that, Senator
Moynihan. [General laughter.]
[The background and financial statements follow:]
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SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
QUESTIONNAIRE FOR COMPLETION BY
PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEES
A. BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
1. NAME: McMahon John Norman
(LAST) (FIRST) (MIDDLE)
2. FORMER NAME(S)- USED, IF ANY: N/A
3. DATE OF BIRTH: 3 / July /
DAY (MONTH) (YEAR)
4. SPOUSE'S NAME: Hugger
Margaret J QU-
LAST FIRST (MIDDLE)
5. FORMER NAME(S) USED BY SPOUSE, IF ANY N/A
6. NAME AND YEAR OF BIRTH
OF CHILDREN: Patricia Joy 28
Christopher John 27
Timothy Richard 23
7. EDUCATION:
DATES DEGREES DATES OF
INSTITUTION ATTENDED RECEIVED DEGREES
Holy Cross 1947-1951 B.A. June 1951
Georgetown Law 1951
Harvard Advanced 1968
ManaLJemelTr rr8gram
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June 1952 - June 1952
July 1952 - August 1953
August 1953 - July 1954
July 1954 - November 1954
November 1954 - February 1955
February 1955 - January 1957
March 1957 - September 1957
January 1964 - July 1964
August 1964 - September 1965
September 1965 - September 1970
September 1970 - July 1971
July 1971 - April 1973
Communications processing and
distribution clerk
Communications tech (crypt) (overseas)
Communications cable analyst (overseas)
Chief, Cable Desk (overseas)
Home leave and training at CIA's
training site
Administrative officer (overseas)
Assistant to Chief of Station (overseas)
Entered military service under Agency
auspices
Headquarters, European Division, counter-
intelligence
Deputy Chief, Central Processing
Case officer for U-2 pilots and contract
monitor of technical representatives
Executive Officer, Development Projects
Division; was responsible for CIA
reconnaissance activities, and support to all
phases of air operations
Chief, Program Analysis Staff/Development
Projects Division
DCI Program Analysis Staff
DDS&T Systems Analysis Staff
Deputy Director, Office of Special Projects
Deputy Director, Office of ELINT
Director, Office of ELINT
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April 1973 - August 1974
August 1974 - May 1976
May 1976 - April 1977
January 1978 - April 1981
April 1981 - January 1982
Director, Office of Technical Service
Associate Deputy Director for Administration
Associate Deputy to the DCI for the
Intelligence Community
Acting Deputy to the DCI for the
Intelligence Community
Deputy Director for Operations
Deputy to the DCI for National Foreign
Assessment
Executive Director
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20
LOCATION AND
POSITION OR JOB NAME OF DATES OF
8. EMPLOYMENT RECORD: TITLE DESCRIPTION EMPLOYER EMPLOYMENT
(List all positions Abroad and
since college, in- l(See attachment) CIA
cluding military as tng on, U.L.
1951-Present
service)
9. GOVERNMENT Excluding any employment listed above, list any experience
EXPERIENCE: in, or association with Federal, State, or local governments,
including any advisory, consultative, honorary or other part-
time services or positions.
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21
10. MEMBERSHIPS: List all memberships and offices held within the last
five years in professional, fraternal, business, scholarly,
civic, charitable and other organizations.
11. PUBLISHED
WRITINGS &
SPEECHES
12. HONORS &
AWARDS
List the titles, publishers and dates of books, articles,
reports or other published materials you have authored.
Also,-list titles of any public speeches for which there
is a text or transcript, which you have given in the last
10 years. Please specify whether it is a book, article,
report or speech.
None
List below all scholarships, fellowships, hoporary degrees,
military medals, honorary society memberships and any
other special recognitions for outstanding service or
achievement.
Distinguished Intelligence Medal (2)
Intelligence Medal of Merit
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22
During my 31 years of government service, I have had the good
fortune to work in all four Directorates of the Central Intelligence
Agency as well as on staffs supporting the DCI in executing his Intelli-
gence Community responsibilities. Within CIA, my responsibilities
in the scientific and technical arena have included reconnaissance
operations and research and development (1965-1974). As Associate
Deputy Director for Administration (1974-1976), I helped manage our
support capabilities, including communications, logistics, data
processing, personnel, security and training. I have also served as
Deputy Director of Central Intelligence for Operations (1978-1981).
In that capacity I was responsible for the collection of foreign
intelligence from human sources, counterintelligence, and conducting
special activities as directed by the National Security Council. As
Deputy Director for National Foreign Assessment (April 1981 - January 1982),
I was the Director's principal advisor on the analytical process and the
production of national intelligence, including Intelligence Community
estimates and CIA production. Finally, as Executive Director since
January of this year, I have been responsible for the day-to-day manage-
ment of the Central Intelligence Agency.
Within the Intelligence Community, I served as Associate Deputy
(1976) and then Acting Deputy (1977) to the DCI for the Intelligence
Community. In those capacities I assisted the DCI in executing his
Community responsibilities and served as his principal advisor on all
matters relating to the National Foreign Intelligence Program budget
and on Community-.wide collection tasking. I would also like to note
that during most of my career (since 1959), I have served in positions
involving national programs requiring coordination, and in many cases
joint efforts, with the military services.
I believe my long and varied career has provided me an in-depth
appreciation of all facets of the intelligence process, both within the
CIA and the Intelligence Community, and therefore qualifies me for the
position for which I have been nominated.
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23
13. REFERENCES: Please provide the Committee with the names and current
addresses and telephone numbers of five individuals whom
you believe are in a position to comment upon your
qualificiations for the office to which you have been
nominated. Please include the names of at least three (3)
persons who have known you for more than five years.
NAME ADDRESS
TEL.NO.
# OF YEARS REFERENCE
HAS KNOWN YOU
Vice President George Bush White House
456-7123
7
Deputy Secretary of Defense
Frank Carlucci Pentagon
695-6352
6
Admiral Daniel J. Murphy White House
456-6606
7
Admiral Stansfield Turner OPwit Road
McLean, Virginia 22101
Walter J. Stoessel, Jr. State Department
B. QUALIFICATIONS
State fully your qualifications to serve in the position for which
you have been nominated. (attach sheet)
C. FOREIGN AFFILIATIONS
1. Have you or your spouse ever represented in any capacity (e.g., employee,
attorney, business or political adviser or consultant), with or without
compensation, a foreign government or any entity controlled by a foreign
government? xxx
YES ~TNO
2. If you or your spouse have ever been formally associated with a law,
accounting, public relations or other service organization, have any
of you or your spouse's associates represented, in any capacity,
with or without compensation, a foreign government or any entity controlled
by a foreign government?
xxx
-
If the answer to either or both of the above questions is "yes
describe each relationship.
(NOTE: The questions above are not limited to relationships remuiring
registration under the Foreign Agents Registration Adt.)
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3. During the past five years, have you or your spouse received any
compensation from, or been involved in any financial or business trans-
actions with a foreign government or an entity controlled by a foreign
government? XxX
.If yes, please furnish details.
(NOTE: Questions 1,2,6: 3 do not call for a response if the representation
or transaction was authorized by the United States Government
in connection with your employment in government service.)
Have you or your spouse ever registered under the Foreign Agents
Registration' Act?
xxx
-YEES HO
If yes, please furnish details.
D. POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS.
1. List all of your and your spouse's financial contributions. of money or
services valued in excess of $500 to any political party, election
committee or political action committee during the last five years.
NAME OF ORGANIZATION AMOUNT DATE
None
2. Have you ever been a candidate for elective public office?. If yes,
please furnish details.
xxx
E-YS NO
FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST
Please describe any employment, business relationship, investment,
association or activity which might create, or appear to create, a
conflict of interest in the position to which you have been nominated.
(ee copies of 18 U?C 208 and-Executive Order 11222 attached.)
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
2. (a) As far as it can be foreseen, state your plans after completing
government service. Please state specifically any agreements
or understandings, written or unwritten, concerning employment
after leaving government service in particular concerning agreements,
understandings or options to return to your current position.
Undetermined - no agreements or understandings
(b.) Have you received any offer or expression of interest to employ
your services in any capacity? If yes, please furnish details.
(c) If you are presently in government service, during the past five
years of such service have you received from a person outside
of government an offer or expression of interest to employ your
services after you leave government service?
3. Do you have any commitments or agreements to pursue outside employ-
ment, with or without compensation, during your service with the
government? If yes, please furnish details.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
4. Please list below all corporations, partnerships, foundations, trusts,
or other entities toward which you or your spouse have fiduciary
obligations or in which you or your spouse have held directorships
or other positions of trust during the past five years.
Name of Entity Position Dates held Self or Spouse
5. List all gifts exceeding $500 in value received during the vast five
years by you, your spouse, and your dependents. Gifts received from
relatives & gifts given to a spouse or dependent totally independent
of their relationship to you need not be included.
$. List all securities, real property, partnership interests, or other
investments or'receivables with a current market value (or, if market
value is not ascertainable, estimated current fair value) in excess
of $1,000. (NOTE: The information provided in response to Schedule,A
of the disclosure forms of the Office of Government Ethics may be
incorporated by reference, provided that current valuations are used.)
Description of Property Value Method of Valuation
Home Estimated $170,000
7. List all.loans mortgages, or other indebtedness (including any contingent
liabilities) in excess of $10,000. (NOTE: The information provided
in response to Schedule D of the disclosure form of the Office of
Government Ethics may be incorporated by reference, provided that
contingent liabilities are also included.)
Nature of Obligation Name of Obligee Amount
Mortgage Richard.and Margaret $30,000
"L99., I -Iaws)
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 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
8. List all lobbying activity during the past 10 years in which you
have engaged for the purpose of directly or indirectly influencing
the passage, defeat or modification of any legislation at the
national level of government or affecting the administration and
execution of national law of public policy. List specifically
each appearance before any committee of the Congress, and any
other effort in any capacity to influence an action of a committee
of Congress.
9. Describe the financial arrangements you have made or plan to make-,
if you are confirmed, in connection with severance from your current
position. Please include severance pay, pension rights, stock
options, deferred income arrangements, and any and all compensation
that will or might be received in the future in your current Position
as a result of your prior business or professional relationships.
10. Explain how you will resolve any potential conflict of interest
that may be indicated by your responses to the above items.
11. Do you intend to place your financial holdings and those of your
spouse and dependent members of your immediate household in a blind
trust? If yes, please furnish details.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
28
12. List sources and amounts of all income received during the last
five years, including all salaries, fees, dividends,, interest, gifts,
rents, royalties, patents, honoraria, and other items exceeding
$500. (If you prefer to do.so, copies of U.S. income tax returns
for these years may be substituted here, but their submission is not
required.)
Salary
Fees, royalties
Dividends
Interest
Gifts
Rents
Other-.ceding $500
Total
13. Add schedule itemizing each individual source of income which exceeds
$500. If you are an attorney, accountant, or other professional,
attach schedule 1}sting all clients and customers whom you billed. more
than $500 wort-h of services during the past five years.
F. LEGAL PROCEEDINGS
1. List all civil legal actions in which you have been a party or a witness
since you reached age 21 and provide the name and location of the
court, the docket number, and a brief description of the nature of
the action and your involvement in it.
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 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
2. Have you ever been convicted (including pleas of guilty or nolo
contenders) of any criminal violation other than a minor traffic
offense? If yes, please furnish details.
3. Have you ever been arrested or named as a defendant in an indictment
or information for any criminal violation, other than a minor traffic
offense? If yes, please furnish details.
G. OTHER INFORMATION
1. Please advise the Committee of any additional information, favorable
or unfavorable, which you feel should be considered in connection
with your nomination. None
2. Are you willing to appear and testify before any duly constituted
committee of the Congress on such occasions as you may be reasonably
requested to do so? Yes.
3. Are you willing to provide such information as is requested by such
committees? Yes.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
I John N. McMahon , do swear that the information
provi e in this statement, including the confidential section
and other attachments hereto, is to the best of my knowledge,
true, accurate and complete.
Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
 Position for Which Filing
Lol catio- Pr-,sent Office
r- Entrant, Nominee,
or caner..'.
Terminellon
Report
Title o1 Position
Deputy Director of Central
Intelli ence
NOTE
All schedules must be tiled Enter "None" in armor
across
schedules where appropriate.
First Name ..,it Middle Initial
John N.
Department or Agency II( Applicable)
Address (Number, Street, City. State and Zip Coda)
Washington, D.C. 20505
&p ..tee,.. rd
Agency Use Only ODE Vse Only
drng ioonln. Sap. Veer,
-7.-IF
5-6-82 MAY I I Ic2
Dale of Appointment, Candidacy. Termination Date Ill Aop?caolel
Election or Nomination (Mo., Day, Yr.) (Muntn. Day, Yea,l
Room Number _ TelephoneNn (I/,cludeAreaCodof
7D55 [phone]
1 Prusic; -I Nominees
Name of Congressional Committee Cons.dering Nom;nal~pn _ D. you Intend to Create p Dualitietl Omeersilmed Titian
Senate Confirmation
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence fi yes 1X1 No
Title of Posihonls) one Delete) Held
Ppsniomsi ~.ic L4nn the Fetlcral
P, _
~
- '~'"- -- - - - -----
12 April 1981 - 3 January 1982: Deputy Director for National Foreign Assessment, Central Intelligence Agency
'
"'^nmc ' lSu^??a,AD:.r?el
4 January 1982 - Executive Director, Central Intelligence Agency
C I II
SgnaWre of Reporting Indioidoel PInil. Nf",'il 1 1:11.1 I iftlY 1IIT 1.1. 111 11. Dd'o (MOnflr, One. Yen,
C-AT
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ne ~ast
o
5-6-112
nyency Etn _s ou oral's Opinion
Signature of Designated Agency Ethics IIIG R7 p]y Ir1Y~ V411- IA,IN I l) ) t. GI .~f II 1,11: dll ) - Dale IMcnrn D,,y. Yad,
n e-
T ppn msclo~ he ms,1. _oc n c m e0 in ^hsr
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Office bG~? L?
SgndturB ,.... ... -r ~Ij 4'~ i ,~r '~Y'4 .. ? 'I y _ Daie lMOnll, C Yea _
Government
, CnecN hue ,, comments era oonnnr.en pit ma ,c?
..fair naie -as
 m
11 the,e ero any noise's in properly. purulases. sales, or ora,anues, e, u;
blhllos of a spouse or dependent Child which you have not reported bat
which would be reportable, but for the following:
't. They represent solely your spouse's or dependent child's financier In.
forest or respnnsibildy;
2. They are nor. In any way past or present, derived from your income,
assets, or activities:
3. You neither derive, nor expect to derive. any financial of economic bone-
III from them; and
4. You do not hove knowledge as to the composition of such interests or ref Na
liabilities, X
Do you certify to all of the above?
Page
Number
E Agency Use Only
bole?I F,mp rnl,"' D.,.
5-F-a7
schedule
A
Northwest Federal Credit Union
X
X
~ -..
H XI
I
I"
A
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 PURCHASES, SALES, AND EXCHANGES
This schedule is appltceble only in the goon of annual and lermlnetlon reporte.
Page s~+.enma
Number - 3 B
nT~Jolts N. McMahon -
Agency Usa Only
Report Applicable Transactions. Even it Also Reported on Schedule A
u,,,
Dare of F~nn0 ~MOntn ,.
S-F-A7 "
f~
Type
of Transa
ction
Dale (MOnfh.
Day, Year)
Categor
y of Amo
unt or Val
ue if
DC
Identificationo
Property (real and personal)
Pumnaae
Sal,
E.clvnga
wrcn.ae
ywM
anpe
s>;oo+
o
ss.000
s to
to
S+s.DOa
su.am
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to
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to
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None
------------------
. I Ill
411 ~'Y'
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 GIFTS AND REIMBURSEMENTS
This schedule is applicable only In the c.se of annual are termination report..
Page
Number
Schen?ir
4- C
John N. McMahon __j
Age., Use Only
C.- el t i 1.r5_,6-R2 . ,
1. Lodging. Transportation, Food and Entertainment-Litt each source totaling $250 or more in value
Seou Source (Name and Address) Brier Description
I None -- - - '
-
Valuc
II-All Other Gilts-List each source totaling Sr00 or more in value
S.,ec Source (Nano and Address)
None
l iIt?' ~l -4-1 . Qn?f Gescnplipn
p l } ~urrl VI1(~i L rl ~~( l' .I
-
~
'
I
III Fe mbursemnnt.-List each source rota mg 0250 or moro m value
i~
'
' ____--
-- esi?e
!Dice (Name enddddress) None
 this schedule, except as noted for the third section, is
Applicable in the case of .11 reporting Individuals.
LIABILITIES
John N. McMahon
Type of Liability
(a9. promissory hurt. maryin accounrl
Give dale. Intel st rate and, if ApphCUUle, Term
Nam and address of or...... ion
None
COMPENSATION IN EXCESS OF $5,000 PAID BY ONE SOURCE This section is applicable only in the case of nominees and now enlranls.
Source rName end Address 1
None
genet' Oso only lu?lu:.
'- l Page
5-6-82 Number 5 D
Gelogory of Amount or Value I / I_
1rO.Ql1 3,s.& iZ. SIOa IXII
1O usu ~+;'
flsgoo sw.oog ilamu Lu.+u ub_. __
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
36
ETHICS COMMITTEE REPORT
The CHAIRMAN. And I have here the Office of Government Ethics
report on John McMahon, and I ask unanimous consent that it be
placed in the record of these hearings.
[The Ethics report follows:]
OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS,
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT,
Washington, D.C., May 14, 1982.
Chairman, Select Committee on Intelligence,
U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN : In accordance with the Ethics in Government Act of
1978, I enclose a copy of the financial disclosure report filed by John N. McMahon,
who has been nominated by President Reagan for the position of Deputy Director
of Central Intelligence.
We have reviewed the report and have also obtained advice from the Central
Intelligence Agency concerning any possible conflict in light of the Agency's func-
tions and the nominee's proposed duties. Based thereon, we believe that Mr.
McMahon is in compliance with applicable laws and regulations governing
conflicts of interest.
Sincerely,
J. JACKSON WALTER,
Director.
The CHAIRMAN. I have a prepared statement from Senator Inouye
on the nomination of John McMahon. I ask that that be placed in the
record as though read.
STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL K. INOUYE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
THE STATE OF HAWAII
Mr. McMahon, let me add my personal congratulations to those of
the other members of the Select Committee on Intelligence on your
nomination as Deputy Director of Central Intelligence. I believe it is
fortunate for the committee-and also the intelligence community and
the public-that an individual of your comprehensive managerial and
technical expertise in the field of intelligence has been nominated to
this important position.
Recent years have witnessed a growth in public awareness of the
importance of timely, relevant, and high quality intelligence. Many
current foreign policy problems require accurate intelligence informa-
tion for their satisfactory resolution-for example, the form and con-
tent of verifiable strategic arms limitation agreements; Soviet and
client state use of biological and chemical agents in warfare and the
general problem of Soviet compliance with arms control agreements;
the military situation in various parts of the world and the desirability
of proposed U.S. arms sales to such regions; and the status of national
nuclear programs and the prospects for control of nuclear
proliferation.
This committee has responded favorably since the time of its crea-
tion to the task of rebuilding the intelligence capabilities of the U.S.
Government and providing for adequate intelligence on emerging
issues. The committee has worked in close cooperation with the intelli-
gence community to insure, especially, that intelligence collection and
analysis be improved through new systems and procedures and, when
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
necessary and Justified, through new institutional arrangements. The
previous appointee as Deputy Director, Admiral Inman, has men-
tioned that he was persuaded to accept the post of Deputy Director of
Central -Intelligence in order to help rebuild and strengthen vital na-
tional intelligence capabilities. I believe that Admiral Inman is correct
in his belief that this task has been successfully commenced; I and the
other members of the committee will continue to be involved in this
important effort.
There is an indisputable need to enhance our national intelligence
capabilities to meet novel and severe current challenges, especially
through reinforcement of our intelligence collection and analysis capa-
bilities. But there is also a danger that increased attention to intelli-
gence functions, with their unavoidable aspect of secrecy, will cause
too great an expansion in the side of intelligence that is customarily
referred to as "operations"-clandestine intelligence collection, or
espionage, and covert action in support of foreign policy objectives.
Overstressing intelligence operations can be detrimental to the tradi-
tional intelligence functions of collecting and analyzing national
security information, and may also result in infringement of constitu-
tional rights and civil liberties. If such abuses were to occur, the public
credibility of intelligence efforts would suffer and the Nation could be
disadvantaged in its continuing pursuit of necessary intelligence
activities.
The public credibility of intelligence activities is now preserved in
great part through the process of congressional oversight of the ac-
tivities of the intelligence community. The Senate Select Committee
on Intelligence and its counterpart in the House of Representatives
review general intelligence programs, including their budgets, and
in addition are regularly notified of significant intelligence activities
at home and clandestine activities abroad. In this way, not only is the
public credibility of intelligence preserved but legal and constitu-
tional legitimacy is conferred on properly reported and approved
intelligence programs and activities. Through the oversight mecha-
nism, the actions of the executive in the area of intelligence are made
accountable to the public through their elected representatives in Con-
gress, while necessary secrecy is preserved. As the first chairman of
the Select Committee on Intelligence, I am proud of the record of the
committee in discharging its constitutional and statutory functions
and of its unblemished record of preserving necessary secrecy in the
interests of national security. I believe that the committee has success-
fully steered the difficult course between meaningful review of execu-
tive action and judicious treatment of highly sensitive information.
The oversight process I have described has been crucial in assuring
Congress and through Congress the public that intelligence programs
are properly administered and intelligence activities carefully super-
vised. It has also protected the intelligence community by assuring it
that its actions are being taken through regular procedures that insure
the support of Congress and the public. The previous appointee to
the position of Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, Admiral In-
man, succeeded to an admirable extent in gaining the confidence of
Congress and the trust of the public. He was a fine professional intelli-
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
gence officer; we could be sure of his abilities to grasp and manage
the complex activities of the intelligence community. tie established
a fine rapport with the oversight committees and a fine record in dis-
closure and discussion of key intelligence issues.
Mr. McMahon, I believe that you, in view of your long experience
as an intelligence professional, can have a similar positive effect on
the success of the Nation's intelligence effort, including the important
aspect of congressional relations. I would hope that you will turn all
your hard-earned professional skills to the difficult duties of this job,
by keeping a watchful eye on the managerial and technical side of the
activities of the intelligence community, especially the Central In-
telligence Agency, and by keeping this committee and whenever ap-
propriate, the public, fully informed of significant intelligence issues.
The CHAIRMAN. I have a letter from Congressman Edward Boland,
chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence,
which is the counterpart of our own committee in the House of
Representatives.
Chairman Boland writes in strong support of the nomination of
John McMahon to be Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.
Also, I have a letter here from Congressman J. Kenneth Robinson,
ranking minority member of the House Permanent Select Committee
on Intelligence, expressing strong support for John's nomination.
I ask unanimous consent that both these letters be placed in the
record.
[The letters from Congressman Boland and Congressman Robinson
follow:]
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
Washington, D.C., May 25, 1982.
Hon. BARRY GOLDWATER,
Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN : I write in strong support of the nomination of Mr. John
N. McMahon to be Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.
During the past nearly five years of this Committee's existence, it has held
frequent meetings with Mr. McMahon. He has impressed me with his honesty,
integrity and forthrightness. During those years, he has held several of the most
senior, sensitive and responsible positions in the Central Intelligence Agency
and he has carried out those assignments in an exemplary fashion.
As the Deputy Director for Operations, Mr. McMahon was responsible for some
of the most sensitive operations our nation's intelligence services carry out.
Under his guidance, the DDO enhanced its professionalism and reinvigorated its
morale.
During his tenure as the Deputy Director for Intelligence, Mr. McMahon tar-
ried out a major and long overdue restructuring of CIA's analytic assets, bring-
ing cross-discipline capabilities to bear on key issues in a more effective way.
In recognition of his managerial talents, Director Casey appointed John Mc-
Mahon to the newly recreated position of Executive Director of the CIA. Now,
with the retirement of Admiral Inman, Mr. McMahon has been chosen by the
President to become the Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.
When Admiral Inman's name was before the Senate Committee on Intelligence
for confirmation as Deputy Director, I wrote to you endorsing him for that posi-
tion. In doing so, I stressed his attributes of integrity, deep honesty and well
reasoned decisionmaking. The Intelligence Community, the CIA and the nation
can be gratified that those very same attributes apply to Mr. McMahon.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
John McMahon is an excellent manager, a widely experienced intelligence offi-
cer and a well respected senior government official. I am confident that he Will
do well in his new assignment.
I am certain that all the Members of the Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence join with me in giving an unqualified endorsement to this fine
American for the post to which he has been nominated.
With every good wish, I am
Sincerely yours,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
Hon. BARRY GOLDWATER, D.C., May 26, 1982.
,
Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, D.C.
DEAR SENATOR GOLDWATER: As the ranking minority member of the House
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence I want to join my Chairman,
Congressman Edward Boland in endorsing the nomination of John N. McMahon
for the position of Deputy Directorof Central Intelligence.
During the past five years I have known and worked with Mr. McMahon I
have found him to be extraordinarily responsive, forthright and trustworthy in
helping this Committee meet its oversight responsibilities of the Intelligence
Community.
John McMahon has set a standard of professionalism and leadership unequalled
in the intelligence field. He has distinguished himself as head of the Intelligence
Community Staff ; as Deputy Director of Operations and Deputy Director of
Intelligence as well as Executive Director of the CIA. No other officer of the
agency has held so many diverse and key positions and done so in such an out-
standing manner.
Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that his service in the position to which he has
now been nominated by the President will be of the greatest value to the Con-
gress and to this nation. Mr. McMahon has my full support and I urge speedy
confirmation.
Respectfully,
J. KENNETH ROBINSON.
The CHAIRMAN. Now we can begin questioning, and
Senator WALLOP. Mr. Chairman?
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Wallop $
STATEMENT OF SENATOR WALLOP
Senator WALLOP. I am sorry I was late, but a former POW is having
an art show at the Veterans' Administration, and I was asked to the
opening of it. He was an Army intelligence officer who spent 41/2
years in solitary confinement. I think it is worthwhile to spend time
with him and people like him.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a statement?
Senator WALLOP. I have a statement, part of which I will read and
part of which I will ask to have put in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Senator WALLOP. Mr. Chairman, I have no argument with this nomi-
nation. Mr. Casey wants Mr. McMahon because he believes Mr.
McMahon will do what the country needs to have done. There is noth-
ing in Mr. McMahon's background which disqualifies him and much
that recommends him highly.
Mr. McMahon will not have an easy task. Two years ago I had some-
thing to do with the platform upon which this President conducted
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
the campaign for the 1980 election. That platform specifically men-
tioned that a kind of revolution had taken place in American intelli-
gence just at the time when world events were demanding that it
change in ways quite opposite from the ones in which it did. The
platform specified some rather drastic measures to undo that revolu-
tion and meet the challenges of the 1980's. That was 2 years ago.
Recently around this town there has been a lot of irresponsible talk
about threats to civil liberties and the need for professionalism in
intelligence. Whether and how the latter and the former are supposed
to be related is a mystery. The only clear fact is that the intelligence
community today looks much as it did two years ago. Today the
agenda laid out by the President's platform is as valid and more
urgent than ever. The test of Mr. McMahon's fitness for this job will
not come in these hearings but in what he does to faithfully fulfill
that platform. Performance is the test of fitness.
In recent weeks a noisy and unenlightening and disturbing debate
has surrounded the "quiet resignation" of Mr. McMahon's predeces-
sor. The press, taking aim at Mr. Casey and the President who ap-
pointed him has somehow been inspired to write that the sole qualifi-
cation for holding high office in the intelligence community is pro-
fessionalism defined as never having had a job anywhere else but
in intelligence. Such talk is both hypocritical and wrong.
It is hypocritical because we heard no such talk 4 years ago when
a far higher proportion of the intelligence community's high officials
had no experience in the jobs to which President Carter had just
appointed them. Admiral Turner had never been an intelligence
specialist. His Deputy, Frank Carlucci, had been a Foreign Service
Officer and a budgeteer. Mr. McMahon, at DDO, had never been a
station chief. Dr. Bowie at DDI was a professor from Harvard. Mr.
Blee of the counterintelligence staff had no experience as a CI pro-
fessional. Why was there no outcry? Why weren't CIA bureaucrats
scurrying to the press to denounce President Carter and his appointees
in intelligence?
Whatever the reason, there was not then the petty bureaucratic
treason that we see now. And I will not speculate as to why so many
present and former officials of the CIA have objected less to Carter
and his appointees than to Reagan and his. That is a secondary
matter.
The primary point is that any insistence on bureaucratic qualifi-
cations in 1978 or in 1982 is quite wrong. Neither then nor now is
one's resume a sufficient claim or a sufficient disqualification for hold-
ing high office. The worst result of the current campaign for "pro-
fessionalism" in intelligence, however, is that it clouds the bases of
legitimacy in government. The only bases for legitimacy are, one,
performance, and two, election.
First, performance is paramount. There is no such thing as no-
fault government, no such thing as no-fault foreign policy or no-fault
intelligence policy. Regardless of an official's resume, if the area for
which he is responsible improves because of his stewardship of it, then
that official's tenure is quite justified. If the area is worse or unim-
proved, the fact that he had previously held a long string of jobs is
irrelevant.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
41
Now, I think that the professionals in intelligence, the people who
have held high office in the community over the past 20 years, and
especially since around 1976, do not have a record of which they can
be proud. On their watch this country has suffered shock after shock,
surprise after unpleasant surprise. Above all, this country was sur-
prised by the size, scope and purpose of the Soviet military build-up.
To this day no one in authority in the community has bothered to
explain why this happened and what should be done to keep such
things from happening again.
The list of past errors with which professionals have not yet come
to grips, much less fixed, is long: The deception concerning Soviet
missile accuracy, the Shadrin affair, et cetera.
My point, like that of the President's platform, is that while today
we need competent performance from the CIA more than we needed
it 10 years ago, we sometimes are less confident of getting it. The pro-
fessionals have a lot to answer for, and it is safe to say that the public's
verdict on the last two decades of the intelligence professional's judg-
ment is not complimentary. The feeling that something was wrong
with intelligence, and the public's confidence in Governor Reagan's
ability to fix it, may not have been a major cause for the outcome of
the 1980 election, but that feeling certainly contributed to the outcome.
Second, the second basis of legitimacy is election, the President's
election. President Carter had both a legal and a political right to re-
shape American intelligence according to his best lights. So does every
President who holds that office. What he builds is then tested in the
crucible of events,, and its worth or lack thereof is proved. President
Carter accomplished what he wanted. I think events showed his pro-
gram to have been ill-advised. President Reagan ran on a platform
which said certain things in intelligence ought to be done differently.
So let the President's changes be pursued faithfully and let them be
judged by, the fruits that they bear. Such a judgment will be impossible
if they continue to be ignored, pushed aside or sabotaged in the name
of professionalism.
Now I would ask that remainder of my statement which has some
words of praise and admiration for Mr. McMahon be inserted in the
record.
Mr. McMAHON. That's all right. You can say them, Senator.
[The prepared statement of Senator Wallop follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. MALCOLM WALLOP, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
THE STATE OF WYOMING
'Mr. Chairman. I have no argument with this nomination, Mr. Casey wants Mr.
McMahon because he believes Mr. McMahon will do what the country needs to
have done. Nothing in Mr. McMahon's background disqualifies him. Much recom-
mends him highly. We will see soon enough whether Mr. McMahon's performance
vindicates or impeaches Mr. Casey's judgment.
Mr. McMahon will not have an easy task. Two years ago I had something to do
with the platform on which this President conducted the campaign for the 1980
election. That platform specifically mentioned that a kind of revolution had taken
place in American intelligence just at the time when world events were demand-
ing that it change in ways quite opposite from the ones in which it did. That plat-
form specified some rather drastic measures to undo that revolution and meet the
challenges of the eighties. That was two years ago. Recently there has-been a lot
of irresponsible talk about threats to civil liberties and the need for professional-
ism in intelligence. Whether and how the latter and the former are supposed to
be related is a mystery. The only clear fact is that the intelligence community
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42
today looks much as it did two years ago. Today, the agenda laid out by the Presi-
dent's platform is as valid and more urgent than ever. The test of Mr. McMahon's
fitness for this job will not come in these hearings but in what he does to faith-
fully fulfill that platform. Performance is the test of fitness.
In recent weeks a noisy, unenlightening, and disturbing debate has surrounded
the "quiet resignation" of Mr. McMahon's predecessor. The press, taking aim at
Mr. Casey and at the President who appointed him, has somehow been inspired
to write that the sole qualification for holding high office in the intelligence com-
munity is professionalism, defined as never having had a job anywhere but in
intelligence. Such talk is both hypocritical and wrong.
It is hypocritical because we heard no such talk, four years ago, when a far
higher proportion of the intelligence community's high officials had no experience
in the jobs to which President Carter had just appointed them. Admiral Turner
had never been an intelligence specialist. His deputy Frank Carlucci had been a
Foreign Service officer and a budgeteer. Mr. McMahon, at DDO, had never been
a station chief. Dr. Bowie, at DDI, was a professor from Harvard. Mr. Blee at
the Counterintelligence staff had no experience as a C.I. professional. Why was
there no outcry,? Why weren't CIA bureaucrats scurrying to the press to
denounce President Carter and his appointees in intelligence?
Whatever the reason, there was not then the petty bureaucratic treason that
we see now. I will not speculate as to why so many present and former officials of
the CIA have objected less to Carter and his appointees than to Reagan and his.
That is a secondary matter.
The primary point is that any insistance on bureaucratic qualifications, in 1978
or in 1982, is wrong. Neither then nor now is one's resume a sufficient claim or a
sufficient disqualification for holding high office. The worst result of the current
campaign for "professionalism" in intelligence, however, is that it clouds the
bases of legitimacy in government. The only bases for legitimacy are (1) perform-
ance and (2) election.
(1) Performance is paramount. There is no such thing as no-fault government,
no such thing as no-fault foreign policy or no-fault intelligence policy. Regardless
of an official's resume, if the area for which he is responsible improves because
of his stewardship of it, then that official's tenure is justified. If the area is worse
or unimproved, the fact that he had previously held a long string of jobs is
irrelevant.
Now, I think that the "professionals" in intelligence, the people who have held
high office in the community over the past twenty years, and especially since
circa 1976 don't have a record of which they can be proud. On their watch this
country has suffered shock after shock, surprise after unpleasant surprise. Above
all this country was surprised by the size, scope and purpose of the Soviet mili-
tary build-up. To this day no one in authority in the community has bothered to
explain why this happened and what should be done to keep such things from
happening again. The list of past errors with which the professionals have not
yet come to grips, much less fixed, is long : the deception concerning Soviet mis-
sile accuracy, the Shadrin affair, etc. My point, like that of the President's
platform, is that while today we need competent performance from CIA more
than we needed it ten years ago, we are less confident of getting it. The "pro-
fessionals" have a lot to answer for. It is safe to say that the public's verdict
on the last two decades of the intelligence professional's judgment is not com-
plimentary. The feeling that something was wrong with intelligence, and the
public's confidence in Governor Reagan's ability to fix it, may not have been a
major cause for the outcome of the 1980 election, but that feeling certainly con-
tributed to the outcome.
(2) The second basis of legitimacy is election-the President's election. Presi-
dent Carter had both a legal and a political right to reshape American intelligence
according to his best lights. So does every President. What he builds is then
tested in the crucible of events, and its worth, or lack thereof, is proved. Presi-
dent Carter accomplished what he wanted. I think events showed his program to
have been ill advised. President Reagan ran on a platform which said certain
things in intelligence ought to be done differently. So let the President's changes
be pursued faithfully, and let them be judged by the fruits they bear. Such a
judgment will be impossible if they continue to be ignored, pushed aside, or
sabotaged in the name of professionalism.
The ills which were there two years ago are still there : a collection system
which would be mostly swept off the board in a major war, a data base on the
Soviet Union's political and technological developments, and production pro-
grams that virtually guarantees we will suffer major surprises in the future. We
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have an analytical system capable of arguing-on the front page of the Wash-
ington Post no less-that yes the Soviet Union does have mobile SS-16 missiles
at Plesetsk, and yes they're ready to shoot in case of war, but no, they're not
deployed ! We do not have a counterintelligence system, just a lot of disjointed
activity in the field. How people in this field can give the U.S. any assurance of
protection against the KGB and the other manifold threats that face us without
central all-source analysis is truly mystifying. As for covert action, the proposals
I've seen lead me above all to ask "so what?" The Agency may be able to carry
them out-they're usually feasible-and they're also usually well-intentioned
attempts to help out American foreign policy. But do they make a difference?
I really hesitate to put the country's money and prestige on the line for things
that don't make a difference.
Most disturbing, the intelligence bureaucracy appears to be digging in its heels
against improving its performance under the banner of professionalism and by
uttering indistinct incantations regarding civil liberties.
All of this is to say ,that much must be expected from anyone occupying the
job Mr. McMahon is about to occupy : insight, fidelity to the ideas of the Presi-
dent who appointed him, and ability to bend the bureaucracy away from self-
indulgence and toward the country's service.
I wish Mr. McMahon the best of luck and offer my support.
Senator WALLOP. I want just to conclude by saying that I have
strong admiration for John McMahon. My problem is this idea that
we can only have a professional in that job. After all, this is a govern-
ment of men. One of the things which everybody thought was wrong
in the CIA of the past was that nobody from the outside ever touched
it. I just wanted to point out what appears to me is some contemporary
hypocrisy. I believe that we are now going in the right direction. I
believe it is a good nomination. I believe John McMahon will do a
good job in there. But we ought not to fool ourselves that that is the
only way in which that job could have been given out.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator.
COMMITTEE QUESTIONING
We will begin questioning by Senator Moynihan.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have three questions of which the third might wait for a second
round. I will ask two.
The first question, Mr. McMahon, in open session will be the first
I asked yesterday in private session. In your opening statement you
said that there were two purposes of oversight, the first, to assure
the American people that activities which are of necessity undertaken
in secret are being monitored by their elected officials. As you know,
that oversight function necessarily involves a trust relationship be-
tween the committee and the community because we cannot know
what we are not told, and therefore we must trust to the leaders of
the community to inform us.
And therefore I ask you on your solemn oath before this committee,
can we have confidence that should at any time in your tenure you
learn that either by intent or by mischance this committee has been
given wrong information about intelligence activities or that impor-
tant information has been withheld from this committee, and regard-
less of whether this is the act of persons below or above you, you will
feel it your professional duty and your duty under law to inform this
committee of that fact.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir, Senator Moynihan, I subscribe to the
statement that I made' that I pledge to keep the committee fully and
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
currently informed, and in doing so, I really mirrored the words of
Director Casey during his testimony before this committee when he
was confirmed. And it is the intent I think of every intelligence officer
to make sure that this oversight committee receives the information it
deserves to have and needs.
Senator MOYNIHAN. And you will not hesitate to come before us
and say, gentlemen, you have been misled, or gentlemen, there are
things you should have been informed of which were withheld from
you.
Mr. MCMAILON. If I am aware that you had been misled, I would
correct it.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Fine. That is what you said yesterday, and we
believe completely that you would do it.
Now, the second question, sir. You said that the second duty of the
oversight committees is to assure that the intelligence officers who
undertake the activities, often dangerous and difficult, have the sup-
port of the Congress and the resources they need to do their work.
Could I ask, do you feel that over the past 6 years in the effective
life of this committee that that function has been served as well? Put
more directly, do you feel that over the past 6 years the long running
down of our intelligence resources has been reversed and that a fairly
steady, continuous rebuilding has taken place?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir, I think the downward trend has been re-
versed, principally on the initiatives of the Congress a couple years
ago that saw that we had drawn down too far and began to press for
the turnaround.
We still have a long way to go, and Congress has supported us in
our requests before it to increase the resources we need. So I am very
optimistic about the relationship that exists, with the appreciation and
the understanding that the oversight committees have toward our
needs and the job that we are trying to do.
Senator MOYNIHAN. I do not want to press you, but we might as
well get this on record since the matter was raised. I certainly would
not-I was surprised to hear it raised, but it was. You say this reversal
began a couple of years ago, by which you mean?
Mr. MCiMAHON. About for the fiscal year 1980.
Senator MOYNIHAN. For the fiscal year 1980.
Mr. McMAHON. Fiscal year 1980.
Senator MOYNIHAN. You do not mean January 20, 1981.
Mr. MCMAHON. No, sir.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Of course you do not, because that is not the
case. This has been a continuous development. It took some time to get
it into the fiscal 1980 budget, which began in 1979. The turnaround
has been the work of a bipartisan committee, and I know that under
our chairman it will remain a bipartisan committee.
And I thank you very much for your answer, sir.
Mr. Chairman, I have one other question on verification that I
would like to get to after everyone has had a chance.
The CHAIRMAN. You go right ahead now. That is all right.
Senator MoYNIHAN. Well, then, I will, because the issue of verifica-
tion is so central to my judgment, and I think to yours, about the
nature of the intelligence community and Mr. McMahon's work.
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45
Do you feel that the verification capacities of the intelligence com-
munity are adequate to the kinds of arms agreements we have reached
with the Soviets and the kinds we are likely to reach?
Now, I know you cannot answer the second part of that question
precisely, so why do we not go back to a specific agreement and give
you a peg on which to hang your answer.
Mr. MCMAHON. If we could go back, Senator Moynihan, to-
Senator MOYNIHAN. Could I just say, to be specific, one of the reasons
the Senate demurred on SALT II was the feeling that there had been
losses sustained in our verification capacity.
Would it be your judgment that we have restored that verification
capacity to a level adequate to the purposes of, let us say, SALT II,
and do you think that we are moving in the direction of enhancing it
further
Mr. MOMAHON. That is a difficult question to answer in a complete
and full manner given the unclassified nature of this hearing.
The verification issue is not standing still. Some capacities are erod-
ing, other capacities are being brought on line, but by the same token,
the Soviets are doing things a.little differently, and so what was true
last year or 2 years ago may not necessarily be true today. And it is
difficult to give you an answer on verification until we know the param-
eters of what we are trying to verify and the arrangement of any
treaty that may take place.
I think we can give you a more satisfactory answer, Senator, in the
privacy of your chambers or in a closed hearing.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Which of course we know, but it would help us
if you felt free to say what I think, which is that there have been
capacities added, and there are further capacities in prospect.
Mr. MOMAHON. That is true, but by the same token, the Soviets are
also doing things a little differently which may not permit systems
that worked years before to work now.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Well, both things are true. It is not a static
situation, but we are in a different situation from that of 1979, and
with respect to 1979, a better position, would you not say?
Mr. MCMAHON. I did not hear your last part, sir.
Senator MOYNIHAN. With respect to 1979, speaking just of our ca-
pacities, we are better off than we were, but the situation has changed,
and so have we.
Mr. MCMAHON. We are better off if we were trying to verify those
things that we were trying to verify then.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Exactly.
Mr. MCMAHON. But that may not be the case today.
Senator MOYNIHAN. And those changes are what you have to have
uppermost in your mind and be looking for all the time.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir, we do.
Senator MOYNIHAN. I am glad you are there.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Senator Wallop.
Senator WALLOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McMahon, what does the term "competitive analysis" mean
to you?
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46
Mr.MOMAHON. Well, it brings to mind a lot of squabbles that never
really resolved some things, but we have matured since then, Senator
Wallop, and "competitive analysis" means several things. It means as
the President wanted, that we make use of competitive analysis with-
in the intelligence community to bring all agencies with knowledge on
a given problem to contribute to the analysis of that problem. It
also means bringing in outside experts so that the mind sets which
may exist within the intelligence community do not prevail. And it
also means that we make available to our analysts all the capabilities
that exist in the United States, intelligence, academic and industrial.
Senator WALLOP. Let me ask you, do you believe that the academic
world can make a significant contribution to the intelligence processes
of the United States?
Mr. MCMAHON. They certainly can and they have considerably.
What was unfortunate in years past was that the academic world
turned away from intelligence during Vietnam and the Vietnam
aftermath. I must say that since then there is less pressure on the
campus to stay away from intelligence, and the academicians are
bringing forth their knowledge to us. We are integrating that into
our overall analysis, and I think that is a very healthy situation.
Senator WALLOP. Is their attitude more helpful than it was?
Mr. MCMAHON. The attitude is very favorable.
Senator WALLOP. On the campuses?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Senator WALLOP. Let me just switch briefly to the world of counter-
intelligence.
What does the term "coordinated counterintelligence" mean to you?
Mr. MCMAHON. Well, "coordinated" basically means that all con-
cerned parties have had a say in whatever you are addressing. It does
not mean that you have arrived at a consensus. There may be differ-
ences of opinion, but at least everyone that has a stake in the issue has
been aware of the problem and their opinions have been voiced.
Senator WALLOP. Does the President's mandate to study possible
changes in the way the community conducts its counterintelligence,
does that signify to you a mandate to handle it in a way that is funda-
mentally different from the way it is at present, and if not, why not?
Mr. MCMAHON. Not yet, Senator Wallop, and it may be because our
thinking has not evolved to that maturity as yet.
You must bear in mind-and I don't mean to preach-but the
President's platform does not drive the intelligence community until
the incumbent President and the National Security Council give us
directives, and right now, to that end, to the very point that you are
concerned about, the National Security Council has directed us to re-
view the counterintelligence programs of the United States, to look
at the threat that exists here, to try and assess what ought to be done
in the sense of goals to address that threat, what capabilities we have
to bring to bear on the threat, and the difference will be the gaps where
we need resources and adjustments.
When we address the adjustments is where one may decide to require
some tweaking or reorganization, but right now we are just doing a
plain study, trying to account, get the facts.
Senator WALLOP. Well, what sort of timeframe do you anticipate?
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84B00274R000200220003-8
Mr. MCMAHON. I believe that the first phase of that study, which
will give us a feel for the threat and the capabilities, will be completed
in July of this year.
Senator WALLOP. Will this Committee be made aware of the recom-
mendations that might come down?
Mr. MCMAHON. I believe that Admiral Inman in earlier testimony
had assured the committee that you would be made aware of the out-
come of that study.
Senator WALLOP. Does that include the concept of technology trans-
fer as well?
Mr. MCMAHON. At the moment we have included technology trans-
fer. There is a lot of attention right now in the Intelligence Commu-
nity, in the Government at large, trying to stem the tide of the transfer
of technology which is awesome.
Senator WALLOP. It is awesome. Much of it has to do with the same
sorts of techniques, though, does it not?
Mr. MCMnxox. I'm sorry, sir, I didn't hear you.
Senator WALLOP. Well, counterintelligence and the tracking of tech-
nology transfer.
Mr. MCMAHON. The large volume of technology transfer is done in
overt ways. What frightens us is that a great deal of very significant
technology which has military application is done through illegal
trade or through clandestine operations, and it is in these clandestine
operations where counterintelligence would be needed.
Senator WALLOP. Suffice to say, as you know, in the Budget Sub-
committee we have been pushing more than a little bit in that direction.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir, you have.
Senator WALLOP. We have tried to give more support than perhaps
has been asked for. This has also been the case in a lot of the commu-
nity's operations, not only there.
I wish you well in your job. I have no doubt but what you will be
confirmed in it, and obviously the committee stands prepared to help.
I would just say this for the record. I doubt that the problems that
the intelligence community had as a result of nonoversight by the
Congress could happen now because, aside from anything else, you
have enough people in the Congress who are advocates of the need
for intelligence and understand what intelligence is all about. I for
one, know there is risk in having this many people aware of the many
things that the country does in a secret way, but clearly there is great
benefit in it, too. I know you share that feeling.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, I do, sir.
Senator WALLOP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Senator Huddleston?
Senator HUDDLESTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I think some of the statements that have been made
already today indicate what I consider to be one of the major concerns
about the intelligence operations and maybe one of the most detri-
mental trends in recent times, and that is the politicizing of our
intelligence operation. And I am not talking so much about the ap-
pointments to the various positions as I am the use of the intelligence
product. And I have noted and watched this develop over recent years..
I certainly would not place the blame on any particular group of
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politicians, but as an example I would cite the Carter administration's
press conference and revelation of the development of the Stealth
airplane activity. I think during the Presidential elections there was a
considerable amount of selective leaking, there was a considerable
amount of the use of the intelligence product in a limited way to try
to support one particular position or the other.
I see this as probably the most damaging development as to our
intelligence operations that has occurred over the last decade, at least,
and I know that you recognize that intelligence estimates have to be,
certainly should be scrupulously objective. If justice needs to be blind,
in my judgment, so does intelligence, and to try to mold the intelli-
gence product to fit some preconceived notion or some preposition
taken by any element of the Government seems to me to be a very
dangerous thing.
Translating that into an actual policy sometimes is more difficult, I
think, than just stating it, but as Deputy CIA Director in charge of
analysis last year, I am sure you have had to deal with that. In your
new position what role will you play in assuring the independence of
intelligence analysis from any kind of partisan or ideological bias?
Mr. MCMAHON. In truth, Senator Huddleston, I really don't have to
play the role. The greatest protection that exists to address your con-
cern is the intelligence community itself. The analysts are very inde-
pendent people. They call them as they see them, and our job is to
produce intelligence the way we see it, whether it fits any particular
mold or not.
I think the American people can be satisfied that we have done that
over the years. We may have been wrong at times, but that was one of
competency and knowledge, certainly not one of trying to skew the
facts. And I just don't see that as a threat, I would certainly be alert,
and we would rebuff any attempts to cause that to happen.
Senator HuDDLESTON. But you have no control of it once you have
made your recommendations.
Mr. McMAHON. Once we publish it, sir, it is gone.
Senator HUDDLESTON. What happens then?
Can we depend on you to let us know, that is, the committee itself,
if there are undue pressures to distort in any way the intelligence
estimates that you are required to TI-Jake?
Mr. MCMAHON. I do not know if I would advise the committee, but
I think I would resign if I were pressured to do something that I felt
I could not do.
Senator HUDDLESTON. You would tell us why you resigned, would
you not?
Mr. MCMAHON. Maybe after the fact.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Last year the National Intelligence Council,
which writes the estimates, was taken out of CIA and put under direct
control of the Director of Central Intelligence.
Does this mean that national estimates are now the responsibility
of the Director and that they are supposed to reflect his views, and are
there any advantages or disadvantages to this arrangement?
Mr. MOMAHON. This is an item which the Director and I debated
long and hard because at the time that happened I was in charge of the
national foreign assessments, and I did not want it to happen out
of the symmetry of management. The Director wanted to have it be-
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49
cause he felt that intelligence was so vital, so important that it should
not be left to one person to manage and control. And so by having the
NIO's separate under himself, he could insure that he could get a bal-
anced view coming out of the Agency on one hand, coming out of the
rest of the intelligence community and the NIO's on the other. And
it was just his way of assuring that all alternative views or competi-
tive analysis, as Senator Wallop referred to, bubbled to the top.
And from the end result, I have to say that it is successful. In the
duty of managing it, that remains very difficult.
Senator HUDDLESTON. In other words, it is working that way.
Mr. MCMnxox. Yes, sir.
Senator HuDDLESTOx. Do you think whether it continues to work that
way will depend on who the Director might be from time to time?
Mr. MCMAHON. No, I think it depends on how the national intelli-
gence officers interface with the analysts who are basically doing their
work for them.
The Director is a mechanism by charging the-stating the prob-
lem and then receiving the intelligence. He doesn't get in there and
manipulate the intelligence in this process. And the NIO's, you must
remember, Senator, represent the entire intelligence community. So
they bring their input not only from CIA but also from the Army,
Navy, Air Force, DIA, and State Department, and where their various
views come forth is at a National Foreign Intelligence Board. When
an estimate is considered by the board, the Director insists that all the
principal managers of each agency set forth his position, even though
the estimate may end up being slightly different. And he also directs
that alternate views be included in the estimate so that policymakers
can see that there are varying views, and if there are minor issues, then
they are taken as footnotes.
Senator HUDDLESTOx. And you are comfortable then with the way it
is working?
Mr. McMAHox. I am extremely comfortable with the integrity of our
intelligence process today.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Now, back again on the level that I was dis-
cussing a moment ago, earlier this year we saw in the effort to sup-
port, to win public support for certain of our Latin American policies,
a press briefing in which a Nicaraguan prisoner was supposed to ver-
ify what we had been indicating was our intelligence on the situation.
That turned out to be something less than successful and satisfactory.
I am just wondering after that experience what your judgment is
on the advantages or disadvantages of attempting again to use certain
intelligence to influence public opinion?
Mr. MOMAHON. I think all intelligence has to influence public posi-
tions. That is indeed why we exist, in order to make sure that the
proper decisions can be made, and we pass that intelligence to Congress
so that they can in turn act accordingly.
I think you will find inherent in any intelligence organization a
certain reluctance to take selective events and publicize them. We
would prefer to provide intelligence and let the policymakers treat
the intelligence as they see fit.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Sometimes you have some concern about the
manner in which it is used, I take it.
Mr. MCMAHON. Occasionally.
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50
Senator. HUDDLESTON. Now, Mr. McMahon, yesterday in our closed
session we talked at some length about the President's new executive
order, and the area in which Senator Wallop has already discussed to
a degree of the operations within the United States of the CIA. You
mentioned that you are still in the process of studying that, determin-
ing where the responsibilities ought to be.
Are you working with the FBI in this area?
Mr. Mc HON. Very much so. What we have done, Senator Hud-
dleston, is, that we have drawn up procedures for implementing the
President's Executive order, Order 12333, and have done that in con-
cert with the FBI. After the Director and Judge Webster signed off
jointly on those procedures, we forwarded them to the Attorney Gen-
eral whera they are being reviewed at the moment.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Can we count on being informed whenever
intrusive techniques are used against Americans at home, this
committee?
Mr. McMAHON. I don't think CIA will ever be involved in intru-
sive techniques against Americans here in the United States-
Senator HUDDLESTON. Well, my question was-
Mr. MCMAHON. And should there be a requirement to do that, that
would require the FBI to do it, it would probably be done with a
court warrant.
Senator HUDDLESTON. My question was, if the CIA should do it,
would we be informed?
Mr. McMAHOx. You definitely would.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bentsen, do you have questions?
Senator BENTSEN. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, no other Senators being present right now,
I have a couple.
Has there been any understanding reached with the DCI or other
senior administration officials about your duties and responsibilities
as Deputy Director?
Mr. MCMAHON. The Director certainly talked to me about those
duties and what his present desires are is that I become an alter ego
to him and be able to bring the experience that I have both in the
community as well as in CIA to him. We haven't divided up the pie,
so to speak, as to what is his and what is mine since as Director he
is responsible for everything, but I think I can be a great deal of help
to him, particularly in the community, as well as in operations and
some of the analytical work.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
What role do you intend to play in the day-to-day management of
CIA?
Mr. McMAHON. The day-to-day management will principally fall
to an executive director who will be appointed to replace me. Because
of my background and interest, I think I will keep a close eye on that
operation, but the vastness of that job requires that a person devote
himself principally to running the CIA on a day-to-day basis.
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51
RECRUITMENT PROCESS
The CHAIRMAN. First let me ask you how are you getting along
with recruiting new people, particularly younger people, to come in
the CIA?
Mr. MCMAHON. We are doing very well, Mr. Chairman, and I must
say that I am gratified at the caliber and quality of the recruits that
we are bringing on board.
Our greatest problem is our own, and that is the time that it takes
to process people into the Agency. As you know,'the Agency has very
stringent standards that are both physical and mental as well as secu-
rity standards, and that processing often takes an inordinate amount
of time. As a result, a number of the good people that we would like to
bring on board cannot wait that long and go elsewhere. We lose about
20 percent of those that we want in that fashion.
If I could give you a yardstick, I would say that for every six people
that we decide we want and we put them in process, we bring one on
board.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you replenishing the losses you went through-
the level that I call the assessors, the people that you lost during the
period of the Church hearings who did your assessing work on the
intelligence submitted-are you replenishing those forces ?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes; we are, but as can be expected, you cannot
bring people in, the volume of people you want to bring in with the
experience level, so you have to bring in often young people who are
well trained, well talented, but they do not have the experience, and it
will just be a grooming process as they mature to bring them on line,
so to speak.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, that takes, what, 10 years to train a person
for that?
Mr. MCMAHON. No; it would not take that long.
A great deal of it depends on the individual's experience in the
country that we may have him working in, if he has the language, if
he has some experience traveling there or living there. So it varies,
and I don't think I can give you a pat answer which would be accurate.
The CHAIRMAN. You are upgrading language training, aren't you?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir; we are giving priority to that. Acad-
emia let us down, Mr. Chairman. Years ago they decided that it was
not necessary to have a language for graduate degrees, and as a result
a number of the students coming to us have never had any languages.
So we have to bring them on board and train them ourselves, which is
another year or two out of their useful life, so to speak, and their pro-
ductive capacity.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have the policy over there of promoting
from within so young people can say I'm going to make this my life's
work or my career because the ladder is there and I can go up it?
Mr. MCMAHON. I think that is very much the case, and the subject
before you is a living example of that.
One thing that the Agency does do, it does bring people in at lateral
transfer so that we can bring talent in at whatever level. That is from
supergrade on down, but the bulk of our promotions are from within,
sir.
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52
The CHAIRMAN. Of course, as you know, the secret of any successful
organization is the people in it, and if you have groups of happy
people, you have a pretty good job going. If they are not happy, it is a
difficult job.
Mr. MCMAHON. You are absolutely correct, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. President Reagan's Executive order requires new
procedures for the collection, storage, and dissemination of informa-
tion about American citizens. This includes the use of intrusive meth-
ods like wiretapping Americans abroad, searching the property of
Americans without a warrant, and infiltrating domestic organizations.
Now, will you make sure that this committee is informed of the new
procedures, before they are implemented?
Mr. MCMAHON. We have a commitment before this committee that
the procedures will be given to the committee and they will not be
implemented for at least 7 days.
FOIA LEGISLATION NEEDED
The CHAIRMAN. Do you think we need legislation to remedy the
intelligence family's problems with the FOIA?
Mr. MCMAHON. I certainly do, Mr. Chairman. It is one of the most
chilling pieces of legislation we have before us. I think it does not serve
the American people well, and it is a tremendous impediment to intel-
ligence organizations. It has frightened away agents. We have had
agents quit because of it. We have had would-be agents reluctant to
join us, and equally important, we have had a lot of friendly govern-
ments who really do not want to do business with us for fear that their
information would end up in a release.
I would certainly urge this committee and Congress as a whole to
give us the relief that we need from FOIA.
SHARING OF INFORMATION
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
There was much discussion a while back about the use of American
journalists, clergy, missionaries, or academics, and understandably,
without their permission, they would have some reluctance to volun-
teer.
Do you not think you could use these people with their permission
for the furtherance of intelligence?
Mr. MCMAHON. We certainly could use them. Journalists are a
tremendous wealth of information, and we would be more than happy
to have access to their knowledge. We presently have a policy that
forbids us to have any contract or arrangement with accredited jour-
nalists in the United States, or U.S. journalists abroad, and it is a com-
mitment which the Agency has made, and it is presently the Director's
policy to continue that.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, if any one of these categories that I have men-
tioned wanted to volunteer information, could they?
Mr. MCMAHON. We can always accent information voluntarily, pre-
suming that the person knows that they are giving it to CIA and we
know that they are voluntarily giving it to us.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever encouraged the Members of Con-
gress to make available to you whatever observations they may de-
velop after traveling in other countries?
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53
Mr. McMAHON. Yes, sir, we have, and we find that is a wealth of
information. When Senators and Congressmen return from abroad,
they usually permit us to have a debriefing. They tell us their observa-
tions and their feelings and the environment which they see in those
countries, and that is very helpful to our analysts.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Could I ask you just one quick follow-on ques-
tion ?
The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Just to be clear, Mr. Chairman, there is a head-
quarters regulation at CIA that if you use the services of American.
journalists, clergy or missionaries that it must be on a voluntary basis,
and even so, the Director has the right to waive that rule, with respect
to journalists only, isn't that the case?
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Senator MOYNIHAN. And I believe Admiral Turner made public the
fact that he had issued three waivers in his time, but that, in the event,
nothing had happened.
Mr. MCMAHON. Yes, sir.
Senator MOYNIHAN. You will continue to see that we are informed
when there are waivers.
Mr. MCM.AHON. Yes, sir, we will.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Fine. I think the press has a right to know that
if there is such a waiver, at least we know, and of course the individ-
ual knows.
Mr. MCMAHON. You will know.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Fine.
Mr. Chairman, could I say that there may be other questions, but
I believe Mr. McMahon today has been as open with us in public as
we could ever expect him to be. He was singularly so yesterday in our
closed hearing.
Mr. Biden has arrived; I am sure there will be some more questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have questions, Joe?
Senator BIDEN. No, I do not. I have had a chance to meet at length
with the nominee, and I am satisfied. At the appropriate time, when we
vote or just before we vote, I would like to make a brief statement.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
The question has been raised as to whether we should vote for
Mr. McMahon today or whether we should wait until after the Senate
recess. In addressing this question, I think that Senators should bear in
mind that the committee has been quite thorough on this nomination.
For example, we have taken the following actions with regard to
Mr. McMahon's nomination : Devoted a full 30 days to consideration
of his nomination before scheduling hearings; held a closed as welT-as
a public hearing so that all aspects of his background could be exam-
ined in detail-Admiral Inman had only one public hearing; assigned
four senior staff members to read his complete personnel file and secu-
rity file at the CIA ; submitted both a comprehensive committee ques-
tionnaire and follow-up questions from the staff, both of which have
been responded to in writing before the hearings were held-this has
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54
not been done in recent years; and inquired of other committees, CRS
and other agencies of Government about Mr. McMahon.
On the basis of this effort, we have not been able to uncover any
factual information which would reflect adversely on Mr. McMahon.
For these reasons, it seems to me that we should proceed with the vote.
Well, I think this is about as many members as we are going to have
present. We do have a cloture vote coming up some time, and before we
vote I would like to remind our members that rule 5.6 of our Rules of
Procedure requires that "The Committee vote on the confirmation
shall not be sooner than 48 hours after the Committee has received
transcripts of the confirmation hearing unless the time limit is waived
by unanimous consent of the Committee."
Now, because we are faced with the Memorial Day recess, I ask
unanimous consent that we suspend this rule for purposes of the nomi-
nation of John McMahon.
Mr. MOYNIHAN. Mr. Chairman, reserving the right to object-and
I will not object-can I just ask one detail, which is that it was the
judgment of the Staff Director, and I think a wise one, that just for the
routine of the matter we ask that there be an FBI background check 1
of Mr. McMahon as we do on all other appointees.
That has not arrived yet, but it will have arrived by the time the
nomination is taken up on the floor.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. MOYNIHAN. Could we have that understanding 1
Senator HUDDLESTON. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire whether or not
it is the intention that the nomination be taken up on the floor prior
to the recess?
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, no, I do not think we possibly can do that.
Senator HUDDLESTON. There is no way to do that.
The CHAIRMAN. No way. We have to get the report out. It will be
after the recess before we can vote.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have proxies and enough members here.
If you would like to make a statement, Senator Biden?
Senator BIDEN. If I could.
I would like to make a few brief comments from my prepared
statement and ask that the entire statement be put into the record.
The CHAIRMAN. That will be done.
[The prepared statement of Senator Biden follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF DELAWARE
I would like first to congratulate Mr. McMahon not only on his nomination to
this vitally important post but also on his outstanding service to the Central
Intelligence Agency and the United States over the past thirty years. Although at
times during the last decade the CIA has been a controversial and beleaguered
agency, it bears emphasis that the function of the CIA is absolutely essential to
our national security and that its personnel are among the most competent and
conscientious in government. Mr. McMahon exemplifies this kind of performance
3 Subsequent to this hearing an FBI background check as required was provided to the
committee.
 Approved For Release 2007/03/21: CIA-RDP84BOO274ROO0200220003-8
and character. I think it is fitting that, in this instance, the nominee has been
drawn from the ranks of the agency. We therefore have an opportunity for the
American public to scrutinize in some detail the career record of this exem-
plary CIA officer and to realize the high standard of the individuals that
constitute that agency.
Mr. McMahon, as we discussed in our meeting last week, your upcoming task
is made a little more difficult by virtue of the individual who preceeded you in
its execution. Admiral Inman was in many respects the ideal intelligence
officer. He combined a vast knowledge of the technologies of modern intelligence
collection, a dispassionate understanding of the geo-political complexities of the
1980's, and an unusual gift for leading and motivating sprawling organizations.
As an individual, Admiral Inman unfailingly displayed only the highest levels of
character, personal strength, and candor.
During his tenure at various high-level positions in the intelligence commu-
nity, Admiral Inman frequently provided sound testimony to this Committee
and wise counsel to its individual members. His explanations and judgments
were clear and directly to the point. They were comprehensive. Most importantly,
however, they were forthright.
There was never any attempt to simply mouth those judgments which would
be the ones that he might have thought the Committee wanted to hear. Nor
was there any attempt to cover up intelligence mistakes through bureaucratic
obfuscation. There was no attempt to attenuate intelligence blind spots through
the iteration of prevailing or insipid slogans.
Of equal importance, however, your predecessor had the high principles, the
professionalism, and the sense of proportion to insist that U.S. Intelligence
collection efforts respect the civil liberties of U.S. citizens. He had the insight
to realize that the intelligence community could retain the support of the
Congress and the American people only so long as it scrupulously respected the
Constitutional rights of Americans. Only so long as the community applied
itself to legitimate threats could the intelligence agencies marshall their forces
in effective fashion.
Mr. McMahon, I describe the merits of your predecessor only in order to
emphasize the importance which this Committee attaches to a full cooperative,
competent, and forthcoming attitude on the part of intelligence officers.
Frankly, there have been instances over the last year-and-a-half when I have
felt that the intelligence community did not fully meet these standards. There
have been, for example, instances when, to put it mildly, there has been what
we might call "heightened political awareness" exhibited in intelligence analyses.
Put more directly, there have been occasions when intelligence has been politi-
cized to support this Administration's policies.
We hear in regard to El Salvador, for example, public statements such as
"Although we can't disclose the intelligence information, trust us. We are doing
the right thing in El Salvador" or "If you, the American public, knew what
we know through intelligence about communist involvement in Central America,
then you would support what we are doing in regard to Nicaragua and El
Salvador."
Well, as a member of the Intelligence Committee, I do, or at least think I
do, have access to this intelligence information. I don't think these matters
are so clear cut. I would, in fact, feel more secure if in this instance, there
were more dispassionate intelligence analysis of current developments in Central
America. It would be more helpful if there were better understanding of how
these events fit into large historical, cultural, and economic trends in this hemis-
phere and how they truly effect enduring U.S. national interests. When Intelli-
gence becomes too assertive and over-simplified in order to support the particular
policies of the moment, then America's fundamental long-term interests are
not being met.
The foreign policy and national security issues with which the United States
must grapple are complex enough. We cannot afford a situation in which mem-
bers of the Intelligence Oversight Committees have to make regular assessments
of the objectivity and accuracy of U.S. intelligence reporting.
Finally, Mr. McMahon, I am somewhat re-assured by your repeated statements
insisting that intelligence activities respect the civil liberties of U.S. persons.
As the controversy surrounding the drafting of the new Executive Order on in-
telligence Activities showed, there is evidently a certain hard headedness on the
part of some personnel in the intelligence agencies who are unable to benefit from
lessons of experience. You evidently realize well that the potential dangers to the
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U.S. are large and our needs for foreign intelligence extensive. Our security is in
no sense strengthened if intelligence assets are squandered in whimsical witch-
hunts or fanciful schemes.
I hope, Mr. McMahon, that the ability and professionalism which you have
displayed so consistently will continue to the great advantage of the intelligence
community and the United States.
Senator BIDEN. First of all, I would like to congratulate you, Mr.
McMahon.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Senator.
Senator BmEN. Not only on your nomination to this vitally impor-
tant post, but also on your 30 years of service for this Government. It
is going to be interesting seeing the FBI check on you. [General laugh-
ter.]
Mr. MCMAHON. I'm clean, Senator.
Senator BIDEx. Just out of curiosity I am anxious to see that.
Mr. McMAHox. You will find it very dull.
Senator BIDEN. Mr. McMahon, as we discussed last week, your up-
coming task is made a little more difficult, in my opinion, by virtue of
the individual who preceded you in this post. Admiral Inman was, in
many respects, the ideal intelligence officer. He combined a vast knowl-
edge of the technologies of modern intelligence collection, a dispassion-
ate understanding of the geopolitical complexities of the 1980's, and
an unusual gift for leading and motivating sprawling organizations.
As an individual, Admiral Inman unfailingly displayed only the high-
est levels of character, personal strength, and candor. During his ten-
ure at various high level positions in the intelligence community, he
frequently provided sound testimony to this Committee. and wise
counsel to its individual members.
Of equal importance, however, was the fact that your predecessor
had a heck of a relationship with this committee. I am probably going
to say something that I guess some would suggest would be better left
unsaid, but I said it to you in my office, and I feel obliged to say it
publicly.
With some of us at least, the utterances of Mr. Casey are not always
as-well, we do not always leap at them to embrace them as being the
whole story when he makes them. That may be a little unfair. Let's
assume it is. The fact remains, in my humble opinion, that lingering
doubt exists among some of us on the committee.
I and, I believe, others on this committee who probably wish I was
not saying this used to really rely on Admiral Inman because even
though we did not think that the Director was not telling us the truth,
we sometimes wondered whether we were getting the whole truth, or
we sometimes wondered whether or not it had been politicized. But we
knew that if we got Inman up here afterward, he would never varnish
it for us. If he disagreed with the assessment made, he would be silent.
You could always tell-at least I thought we could always tell.
You have a reputation within the Agency, to the extent that anyone
in your position is able to have a reputation because of the secret
nature of the job, of being a guy who is a. tough Irishman, who is a true
professional, and who is not afraid to stand up within the organization
and say-hey, that ain't the way to do it. We shouldn't go that way.
You have the reputation of being someone who is strong enough to
protect the agency from being politicized.
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57
My greatest fear is the politicizing of this Agency, not only by this
administration but by future administrations.
So I will conclude by saying, as I told you in my office, you have, I
think, a heavy burden on you. Many of us are going to look to you in
ways which we would not ordinarily look to the Deputy Director were
the Director different and the circumstances different. We are count-
ing on you to be straight with us.
I for one-and I suspect everyone here-will say that as long as you
are straight and candid with us, you will not have any problem. But I
promise you, if I believe you are not and others believe you are not, we
will try-I will try very, very hard to do whatever I can to make
things difficult because it is critically important that this Agency be
the best in the world. It is critically important that it be an agency
that is as devoid as possible of politics. Tire want raw assessments, not
political judgments. You have a reputation for providing raw infor-
mation and assessments. We are counting on you doing that. The guy
before you, in my opinion, did it, and that puts a higher burden on
you. I look forward to working with you.
But I wanted to say this on the record just as I told you this in my
office.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF SENATOR BENTSEN
Senator BENTSEN. Mr. Chairman, if I might just comment, there is
an old saying in politics that a man's worst two enemies are his
predecessor and his successor.
Bobby Inman is a fine gentleman, but do not try to pattern your-
self after anyone else. I am impressed with your credentials. You have
the kind of administrative background that I think is going to be very
important in this job. As long as you do what you believe is right
for your country, why, I think it is going to come out fine.
Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Senator Bentsen.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Chafee?
STATEMENT OF SENATOR CEAFEE
Senator CHAFER. Mr. Chairman, I had the pleasure of meeting with
Mr. McMahon both in my office and at the closed hearing we had
yesterday, so I am very familiar with the issues, his background, and
think he is an outstanding candidate and we are fortunate to have him.
UNANIMOUS APPROVAL
The CHAIRMAN. Just prior to taking the vote, I might, in response
to what Senator Biden said, Joe, I think if the new Deputy Director
will develop the habit that the admiral had of pulling up his socks.
when there was something being said .
[General laughter.]
The .CHAIRMAN. When you appear, you sit over here and the wit-
ness, if he is getting off a little bit, just pull your socks up.
Senator BInEN. Or else slide your chair back. He used to just slide
it back like this.
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Mr. MCMAHON. If I may comment, Mr. Chairman, and also to
Senator Biden, I think when the Director hears or reads of the per-
ceptions that you have, he will certainly move to allay your fears and
correct that, and I think he will do that personally in any future
testimony.
I will certainly be very sensitive to the comments of the Committee
and make sure that indeed you have the proper and correct in-
formation.
The CHAIRMAN. I think the time has come to vote.
Will you call. the roll, please?
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Goldwater.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Moynihan.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Garn.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Chafee.
Senator CHAFEE. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Lugar.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Wallop.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Durenberger.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Roth.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. RoBERSOx. Senator Schmitt.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Huddleston.
Senator HUDDLESTON. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Biden.
Senator BIDEN. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Inouye.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Jackson.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Leahy.
The CHAIRMAN. Aye by proxy.
Ms. ROBERSON. Senator Bentsen.
Senator BENTSEN. Aye.
Ms. ROBERSON. Unanimous.
The CHAIRMAN. It is the unanimous decision of the Committee that
you be approved, and at the proper time the floor will act. I just want
to add my compliments at this time.
Also I would like to include in those compliments my observation
that the intelligence family has made tremendous strides in the last
few years and, contrary to many people, I have great faith in the intel-
ligence system of our country. I think if we could change the attitude
of some members of the press, the media, and some Americans, we
would get along with the job very well in the future.
Thank you. Congratulations.
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Mr. MCMAHON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you and the
Committee for your confidence.
[Whereupon at 11:50.a.m., the Committee recessed subject to the call
of the Chair.]
O