NATIONAL TOWN MEETING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01315R000300730002-0
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 38
• Document Creation Date: December 16, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 30, 2004
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: December 10, 1975
• Content Type: TRANS

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NATIONAL TOWN MEETING
12/10/75
This is Josh Darcy, speaking to
you from the Eisenhower Theater of the John F. Kennedy
Center for the Performing Arts. In the moment another
program in. the continuing series of National Town Meetings
will be getting underway. The topic of this National
Town Meeting "Investigating the CIA." The principal
speakers will be Congressman Otis Pike, Democrat of New
York and William Colby, Director of the CIA.
Following the initial presentations, members
of the audience will have the opportunity to present
questions to the speakers. These National Town Meetings
are aimed at presenting distinquished figures from various
fields, discussing with you our radio audience, and with
the audience assembled here at the Kennedy Center, some
of the most important issues of the day.
And now the moderator of this National
Town Meeting, Walter Pinkus, of the WASHINGTON POST.
MOD: For almost 20 years, one or more
members of Congress have suggested that the Central
Intelligence Agency needed to be investigated. In almost
every case in the past the request came because a Senator
or a Congressman disagreed with some CIA activity that
had popped into public view. In the 1950's Sentor
Joseph McCarthy wanted to go after what he considered
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Communists in the CIA. In the 1960's, Senator Gene
McCarthy wanted to flush out CIA officials who were
manipulating organizations, such as the National
Student Association, and making them fronts for anti-
.Communist operations. An irony in this is that one
particular CIA official would have been the target of
both investigations. He was involved in both programs..
Senator McCarthy would have considered him a Communist,
the second Senator McCarthy an unreconstructed anti-
Communist co-warrior. The only thing this proves
is that times change and so do the whims of the public
and the roles played by government agencies.
In the 1950's CIA successfully participated
in the overthrow of anti-US regimes in Iran and Guatamala.
Thereafter, books were written praising those agency
operations and there was no complaint. In 1973, a leftist
regime in Chile was overthrown and CIA is still trying
to make people believe it had nothing to do with it.
And last December, thanks in good part
to a series of stories in the NEW YORK TIMES on domestic
operations of the CIA, the Senate and then finally the
House approved select committees to investigate the
agency and the rest of the Intelligence community.
Almost a year has passed and the nation has laid before
it an unprecedented amount of information about CIA.
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Has the surface just been scratched?
Or has the agency been permenanty scarred? Has Congress
done too little or done too much? Has the foundation
been laid for future reform or have those reforms already
taken place?
And then there is a more philosophic
question. Do we as a nation.want an agency to overthrow
governments, manipulate foreign agencies, subvert foreign
news media, possibly cause assassinations of foreign
leaders? Or do we want only the results of such
operations and no knowledge of how. it was done?
There are some practical questions. What
information should CIA supply the Congress, who can
release that information? Congress alone? Congress and
the Executive?
These are just a few of the questions
but I think deserve to be faced in a serious discussion
of the problem and we have with us Congressman Otis
Pike of New York,.a member of the House since 1961
and Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee since
July. Mr. Pike was given the job after an internal
dispute broke out among members of the first committee.
Thus he inherited both an enormous task and a staff and
only six months to do a job that had been put off for
almost 30 years.
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William Colby has at least one pleasant
thing with Mr. Pike, they both graduated from Princeton.
He has. served with CIA for over 20 years. and since
1968, Mr. Colby has. been near the center of almost all
the recent controversial agency operations that have
been the focus of much of the Congressional attention.
On September 4, 1.973, he became Director of CIA in the
midst of all this turbulance. He too inherited a staff,
an enormous problem and last month he learned from
President Ford that he too had only a short time to
solve them. (LAUGHTER)
Mr. Colby is to be replaced by Ambassador
George Bush, but only apparently after the current
Congressional Investigations are over. We will now
hear first from Mr. Colby.
(APPLAUSE)
MR. COLBY: I'd just like to make
three rather simple points in introduction to this
morning's session. First I think is one that all Americans
will agree on very quickly, and that is important.-.
that Intelligence is and will be important to our
nation in the years ahead. It has been important in
the past, in the days of the Cold War, I think it will
be important in the future as we face the problems of
the future - over population, food shortages, nuclear
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proliferation, terrorism, things of this nature, plus
the continued existence of closed societies with major
weapon systems. And desires for hegemony around the
world.
The second point that I would like to make
is that, is perhaps a little more debateable but I think.
it's clear enough and that is that we have the best
Intelligence in the world. I think our Intelligence
has become a professional operation, both in the analysis
function, putting the various things together, and I am
not saying that we haven't ever made a mistake, of course
we have, and analysis is not the same as looking into a
crystal ball. But I think that also the technology that
America has brought to Intelligence has revolutionalized
Intelligence and brought to our eyes and to our ears things
that we could not have dreamed of knowing a mere 15 or
20 years ago.
And lastly the clandestine aspects of
Intelligence today are in my view the best in the world.
The training is professionalism of the staff who engages
in these I think has brought us to a situation where that
type of effort does provide returns against, even against
the closed societies, the difficult to learn subjects
around the world, the imponderable, and the indefinite
aspects of our lives on this planet.
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The third thing that I'd like to make,
point I'd like to make today, is that Intelligence is
American. It is being brought under our Constitution.
There is no question about it, that some years ago,
Intelligence was one of those unpleasant necessities that
should be carried on over in a corner and please don't
embarrass all of us Americans by telling us what had to
be done and so consequently it was'left to itself. Its
supervision was poor, it was given very fuzzy guidelines
and it was told to go out and do the job. It did the job
but in the inevitable result of that kind of a. charge
there were things that happened that should not have
happened. There.were mistakes made, there were even misdeeds
involved in that experience. And the work that is underway
today as a result of the work of the Senate and House
Committees and of our general American desire that our
government truly be a constitutional one, is the process
of bringing Intelligence within our constitutional framework.
It can be done, it will be done by better
guidelines, by better supervision, and by continuous
effort to keep it doing the things that we Americans want
it to do. We think this process maybe a little traumatic
to some of us in the Intelligence business who have not
been exposed to this degree. I think we are going to have
to ask the Americans generally to allow us to have some of
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the necessary-secrets of Intelligence and I think we
Americans recognize that if an Institution in America
needs secrecy, it can be given it. The ballot box, the
grand jury proceedings, all these kinds of institutions
in America recognize the need for secrecy.
Intelligence needs some secrecy, not
total secrecy as it was in the past, but it does need
some and I think we Americans are going to run an American
Intelligence system in which will be the best'in the world
ahead where we are going to need it. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
PIKE: There is much in what Mr. Colby
said which I would have no difficulty agreeing. I think
it is rather a tragedy however that I can sit in a room
like this and think of all of the places that a microphone
might be planted that I was not aware of. It is a pleasure
to be able to talk into a microphone which you can see
and I think that - and I am saying this not in any sense
in detriment of Mr. Colby, I am making one point right off
the bat and that is that what we have been investigating
is not merely the CIA but it involves also the FBI and
unlawful surveillance of American citizens. It involves
the National Security Agency and unlawful surveillance
of American citizens. And the CIA is frequently called
upon to be the scapegoat, that the label CIA attaches
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to too many of. these things.
Of course we need some secrecy in the
conduct of our foreign affairs. There is no question
in my mind that some secrecy is essential to a healthy
America and a strong America. But I believe.very very
strongly that this.country has gone way overboard on the
issue of secrecy. We classify documents that have no
reason for being classified whatsoever. We perform acts
that the American people would rise up in righteous
indignation against if they were aware of these acts.
And I think that if our nation is to stand for what
our founding fathers intended for it to stand for, we
must be something more than just. strong. There has to
be some kind of a moral content in America. There has
to be a moral content in the conduct of our foreign
affairs and so frequently we have seen ourselves doing
things only because the Russians were doing it. The
Russians'are doing this so we have to do it.
If we are going to put ourselves in the
same position that the Russians are in, if we are going
to perform those acts which they perform. If we are going
to conduct our society in the kind of secrecy in which
they conduct theirs, haven't they really in a very large
sense already won? I think this is the question which
we must address as a free nation. Yes we must be strong.
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To me, the greatest weakness in America today is not the
danger of Soviet arms or nuclear war, it is the fact that
millions upon millions of Americans believe reluctantly
that their government lies to them. Millions upon millions
of Americans have lost faith in the fact or in the concept
that the government tells them the truth. They just don't
believe it any more. This is the greatest weakness that
I see in America today and I think we have to get back on
the track of a government which tells the truth to its
people and a people which believes in its government.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: Now it is your turn, the audience
to question our speaker.. There are floor microphones
on the far right and far left aisles, politically arranged.
(LAUGHTER). Please -- please give your name and the
person to whom you are directing your question. Over
on the left.
Q: Mr. Pinkus.... a ... story of yours
this morning. Mr. Colby two painful questions. I ask
your most thoughtful comments especially for young
Americans on the CIA horrors detailed last night on
public TV which Getline(?) captioned "How the CIA grew
into a monster." Have it in my hands. And number two,
would you recommend that this vivid documentary be
installed as part of a permanent exhibition of atrocities
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which have stained our national honor to discourage
repetition of the same? (THIS WAS VAN LEER)
COLBY: I have about decided this morning
after seeing that documentary which was no please I must
say, that I needed to ask for equal time. The ... (APPLAUSE).
I found it a very highly contentious and one-sided
presentation of a very complicated story and a very
complicated history. I think that I can comment at some
length at another occasion in the detail of the stories
there and I think that consequently that the thing was
so one-sided and so partial that it does need a full
response rather than just a one-line response.
MOD: Over on the right.
VAN LEER: Not answered.
MOD: Mr. Colby.
COLBY: No I don't believe that - I certainly
have no either right or interest to suggest censureship
of it, but if you asked whether it is a fair presentation
of the history of CIA I would say no.
MOD: Over on the right.
(APPLAUSE)
Q: Mr. Colby, did the CIA in any way
have any involvement with the assissnation of John F.
Kennedy?
COLBY: No.
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(APPLAUSE)
MOD: On my left.
Q: My name is Ruth Blond, I'm from
Washington, D.C. My question is directed to Congressman
Pike.' Will any real reform legislation come out of
your Committee for a better Intelligence system?
PIKE: In all honesty I can't say that
I know the answer. I hope that it will and I know that
or I believe that our Committee will recommend legislation
which will combine a decent respect for necessary secrecy
with a reasonable oversight of questionable acts. The
problem is going to be to get the Congress and the
American people to have the will to look at what is going
on. It is a lot easier.you know for Congress and
Congressmen to sit back and second guess rather than to
move in and participate in the decision-making process.
It takes a lot of will andmoral commitment and above all
stamina to do this job. What I hope that good oversight
legislation will be passed. I think honestly it would
make Mr. Colby's job easier and the CIA's job easier.
It would make Congress' job a lot more difficult and I
hope we have the will to do it.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: if I can interject a question on this
point for Mr. Colby. In the years that you've been director
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and been discussing matters with the Ford Committees in the
past that have had oversight responsibility, has there been
any time when any member of the House or the Senate has
suggested something that you were doing was wrong?
COLBY: Well on one occasion I brought
up to the Committee certain things that we did that
were wrong. Certainly in the oversight process there
have been a number of occasions on which members of
either the Committee of the House or the'Senate have
expressed their opposition to a certain course of action.
Not that they said it was wrong in.that sense. I don't
think that they said it was illegal, they said it was
a wrong thing to do. There were situations in which
that has happened.
MOD: Question on the right.
Q: Mr. Willridge(?) Washington, D.C.
Mr. Colby would you explain the Phoenix operation in
South Vietnam in which you were in charge of. Why were
so many thousands of the Vietnamese citizens murdered or
killed or whatever - the reports we got, and will this
will the government take responsibility for this not
happening again ever throughout the world?
COLBY: Well I have testified on the
Poenix Program many times before the Congress and
spoken-publicly about it.
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(SOMEBODY YELLING FROM THE AUDIENCE)
To summarize very quickly, the Phoenix program was an attempt
to identify who the members of the Communist apparatus
and the terrorists were. It was an Intelligence program
to try to identify these people so that they could be
taken out of the population. And preferably by capture
or by getting them to rally. 200,000 people rallied.
We captured a certain number of them but in Vietnam
at that time there was a very vigorous war going on.
And a lot of people got killed in the process and a
certain number of those were identified as the leaders
of the Communist apparatus. And those figures that
I reported to the Congress in 1971, were the figures
that we had from the field as to the extent as to the
number of people that were captured, the number of people
who were rallied, and the number of people who were
killed. There was a very energetic effort made to
improve the procedures so that they met reasonable
standards and eliminate the lawlessness that prevaded
the villages and back country: of Vietnan in the mid.-
60s. The Phoenix Program had an effort to improve
the legal procedures as well as the detention procedures.
I do not say that there was never an abuse. Certainly
there were abuses. The abuses occur in wars. And abuses
occurred in the Phoenix Program that I did frankly admit.
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But the use of the numbers that I reported is an example
of that contentious and one-sided presentation of the
case against us without recognizing the circumstances
in which the event was happening and the full background
of the program and of the activity by the Communists,
terrorists whose figures of terrorism victims were quite
high also.
down on cards.
or Mr. Colby.
MOD: We are also taking questions written
And one of them is addressed to Mr. Pike
comment on suggestions
from just intelligence
agency?
PIKE:
that would be a very
there is no question
with Mr. Pike. Would you
that covert operations be separated
gathering and analysis in a separate
Yes, I don't -- I don't think that
meaningful reform.
I think that
but that covert action and
covert
operations should be scrutinized separately and very
carefully, apart from Intelligence gathering operations.
To set up a new bureaucracy however for the purpose of
conducting covert actions separate from Intelligence
gathering, I .think would be rather meaningless. There
is some'overlap in some areas of covert action between
actions and intelligence. All covert actions are not
murders or attempting to rig elections in other countries.
There are other covert actions that come very close to
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being of.pure intelligence. I don't think that getting
another layer of bureaucracy - in other words would be
meaningful. I think that oversight, overall of the
activities of the Intelligence agencies is required.
One thing I must say, we cannot use
the euphamism of intelligence activities to describe
the kind of operations which have been conducted in
the past. Again, I get back to the basic principles,
we have got to tell the truth to the Congress and to
the people about what we are doing.
(APPLAUSE)
COLBY: I agree with Mr. Pike, what he
said on that. We had an experiment one time 25 years
ago in which the covert action operations were separated
from Intelligence gathering and they spent half their
time trying to find each other. This was really not
a very productive exercise and it has worked a little
better being combined. I thoroughly agree with Mr.
Pike on the need of careful supervision and careful
control of such activities.
MOD: On the left.
Q: Mrs. Percy Leon from Sarasota, Florida.
I'm rather disappointed Mr. Colby, in that last statement
of yours. I was going to ask you if you didn't think that
this nieve publicity and action by Congress has practically
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ruined the effectiveness of the CIA organization.
(APPLAUSE)
COLBY: This is a situation in which we
have had the usual problem of being neither thoroghly
black nor thoroughly white. There has been effects on
our Intelligence gathering as a result of the publicity
and I don't just mean the investigating committees but
the other leaks that have occurred in the past year or two.
Individuals have decided that they no longer can risk
working with us. Americans have said that they no longer
can give us the assistance of their companies abroad.
Foreigners have said that they are concerned as to
whether we can keep the secrets that their services
give to us. There has been an effect. But on the
other hand, the operations are continuing. I think
the daily and the periodic products of our Intelligence
are still of the highest quality and I still say they
are, by far the best in the world.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: Mr. Pike.
PIKE: If I might just comment on that
briefly. First I think that we would all like crime
to disappear from the streets of America. But I don't
think we accomplish anything in that regard by ignoring
the fact that it exists or by failing to r oport i t.
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If America is so weak that it cannot stand the truth about
itself, then I think it is far weaker than either Mr. Colby
or either believe it to be.
Finally, I would like to say that as a
result of our inquiry, my personal evaluation of the
Central Intelligence Agency has improved. I think more
highly of it than I did before I started. I think
less highly perhaps of the FBI than I did before T
started. And I think as far as the CIA is, concerned,
it was not a rogue elephant going off by itself and
doing things it was carrying out orders which were
given to it and I tend much more to que scion those
that gave the orders than those who carried them out.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: Over on the right.
Q: John Teale(?) Washington, D.C.
I would like to ask a question of the Post and also
a comment by Mr. Pike. Don't you think that since Mr.
Pike has set this program with a moral tone, wouldn't
it be in order first to ask Mr. Colby should be resign
as the head of the CIA so we can have a rebirth of
confidence in the new CIA? (SURGE OF OHS FROM THE AUDIENCE)
And also, I would like to ask Mr. Pinkus, since he is
the Moderator, he represents the freedom of the press
of the WASHINGTON POST the Katherin Graham(?) empire
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has imported a professional union buster from Canada
.from canada (BOOS FROM THE AUDIENCE) we would like to know
why -- we'd love to know why, this is no reflection on
Mr. Pinkus why the POST isn't telling the truth, why
they brought in this professional union buster. (LOTS
AND LOTS OF BOOS)
PINKUS: Well we will have to have a
panel on labor practices some other time (APPLAUSE)
PIKE: Of the first question of course,
I'm afraid that the question is as the lawyers say moot.
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
MOD: The question has come up on a card
from Steve Taylors, for Mr. Colby, and that is, how
can the United States justify its contribution to the
Civil War in Angola?
COLBY: Well I am not at liberty to talk
about the United States activities in that area. This
is in line with our refusal to discuss such activities
by any official. I do think it important however in
an Intelligence appreciation of what is going on in
Southern Africa to note the extent of the Soviet airlift
of arms to one of the factions in the - in Angola. The
fact that African nations on four occasions in the past
year have tried to bring about a coalition between all
of the three factions there. That there are something
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on the order of 4,000 Cubans working for the. factions
supported by the Soviet Union. That these are 122 mm.
rockets, tanks and so forth that having been given to
that faction,. and that there is clear evidence of
Soviet desire to expand its influence in that area and
to support one faction against the.other factions in
Angola. The other factions also fought the liberation
struggle over these years but somewhat as has happened
in other areas, the Communists are very monopolistic
about the degree of control they wish to have in a
situation such as that.
MOD: Can I interject myself in this
and put a hypothetical question to Mr. Pike. If I
cany.say hypothetically that the United States is supplying
assistance to elements of the Angolan peoples movement,
one of the different groups that is fighting for control
of that country, and if I can hypothetically say that
members of Congress have been informed about that how
does the Congress itself decide how we become. involved
in Angola?
START SIDE TWO
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..besides publicly whether there is a U.S. interest
in Angola and how the American people i.f all this is
going on, to make some kind of determination as to
whether we should be involved in this, if in fact it
is done convertly and can't be discussed publicly by
government officials.
PIKE: Well first of all I think I understand
your question. (LAUGHTER) If we are to become
involved in a civil war in Africa, I take the position
that we should not become so involved without the
American people and the United States Congress knowing
about it. That's number one.
(APPLAUSE)
Informing -- In forming questionnaires
I have always known that I can get any response I want
if you let me frame the question. (APPLAUSE AND LAUGHTER)
And .I believe that the Administration can get any
response it wants from Congress if they control the
information which is given to Congress as they make
their presentation. What has happened in the past
is that terribly few members of Congress have been
presented with loaded information on huge issues
and Congress has gone along with them accordingly.
I am not saying this was done by the CIA. I am saying
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this was done by the Administration, both Republican
and Democratic, there is no, there is no line here
whatsoever, there has not been legitimate oversight
because there has not been legitimate information
available to Congress. How we can - you are asking
how we can conduct such secret operations in the future.
I simply say that when you get to the point of involving
yourself in a civil war, then the American people have
a right to know what we are doing.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: On the left.
Q: My name is Gus Shick and my question
is Congressman Pike. Employees of the CIA undergo
intensive background investigations and periodic polygraph
investigations. Employees of the FBI. intensive backgrounds,
most members of the Executive Branch - if Congress demands
access to Intelligence community information, would
Congressmen and their staff people be willing to submit
to background investigations?
(APPLAUSE)
PIKE: As to Congressmen, my guess is that
the answer would be no. (LAUGHTER) My guess is,- well
let me goon a little further. One of the Congressmen
on my Committee demanded an FBI investigation of himself.
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before he went on the Committee. And I said "Who is
going to read your FBI investigation? Who is going to
evaluate whether you are fit to serve on this Committee
or not? I said, I guarantee you you're not going to
blame me for your youthful peccadillo." Now as for
staff we have had FBI investigations of every single
member of the staff. I am appalled by the quality of
the investigations. I thought they were just superficial
and asked most of the wrong questions. And I did say
to the members of the staff that frankly that if all
they had to show for their lives thus far were a couple
of speeding tickets and a traffic light I was embarrassed
for them. (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)
MOD: Over on the right please.
Q: (NAME INAUDIBLE) from Washington,
D.C. This. is really a two-part question. First of which
is - I guess to both panelists. What they see as the
need for covert as opposed to Intelligence gathering
activities. The second question is why not publish
for the American people at least the totals CIA
budgets?
(LAUGHTER)
For openers I am wholly in favor
of publishing, at least the total CIA budget. I will
only say that the figures given to us in even the most
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secret. of documents don't represent the total which
is spent by the CIA or under the control of the CIA.
So I think we have to do more than just public the
figures which they give us. We have to analyze the
figures. As to the other question, I am not opposed
to all covert action. I think that some covert actions
are meaningful and useful and proper.
COLBY If I may carry that on, with respect
to covert actions, I believe that these are a response
to the world in which we live. During the Colder days
of the Cold War, when we were engaged in a worldwide
confrontation with the Soviet Union and its allies,
there was cause for a great deal of effort in this
field because otherwise we were going to be overcome in
various parts of the world and our strength reduced.
In recent years we have done much less because the
change in the world climate has been such that we have
been called upon to do much less. As you look into the
future though, will there be occasion in which a little
quiet help to some. friends in a country can ensure their
control of that country and their control of that
country.'s military resources and, their control of that
country's desire to move into a nuclear weapon of its
own, or will we see it go to some other group with designs
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hostile to the United States. There are situations
in which it will be in our nation's interests and
I believe in the interests of world peace generally
for that kind of moderate, sensible approach to be
taken by other nations and for that kind of people
to be running those nations, thanks to some help that
we may have been able to give them quietly.
With respect to the budget question, I have
taken a position that it should not be made public.
had that out on the floor of. the House and the House voted
this year 260 to 140 that it remain secret. The reason,
not because this year's single budget would be any great
problem, although it would be of certain help but rather
in a very short time we would get to the immediate
question why did it go up? Why did it go down? What
does it include? What doesn't it include? And we would
repeat the experience of the Atomic Energy Commission
wich started out in 1947 with a single line figure, total
for our weapons expenditures in atomic energy, and
last year's budget presentation was 15 pages.of detailed
data on our weapons expenditures.
Now I think the same thing would happen
to our Intelligence structure and within a very short
time the secrecy would erode and we would be providing
a great number of details which would be of great
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assistance to the countries concerned about our
Intelligence activies and trying to blind us from
things that they don't want us to know.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: There have been a number of questions
that fit in one category and I will try to sum them up
in one general question for Mr. Pike. They have the
tone of can you recall any other great power, roughly
the Soviet Union, Great Britain, France, Germany, that
has - if one question says -washed dirty linen in front
of the public the way the United States has in the past
two years?
PIKE: The answer is no, by the same token
I think the American Constitution is a rather unique
document and I think that our abiding strengths in the
world is the fact that other nations look at us and say,.
"Well by golly they are doing all this but isn't it a
free society."
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: To the right. .
Q: My same is Alex Socewell(?) I would
like to address a two-part question, the first part is
directed to Director Colby and the second part to.
Congressman Pike. The first part of the question is
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At what.point will we continue to sanction the interence
in the internal affairs of other countries and the
second part is, and what assurance can be -nrovided to
the American people that the current probe on the legal
covert operations isn't only political window dressing?
COLBY: Well with respect to the first
part, I believe I answered it in my previous question
about the future of covert action. That there are
situations in which it should be conducted provided it
is conducted under firm control according to our laws.
PIKE: As to trying to convince the American
people that what is being done is not just political
window dressing, we don't have an awful lot of power
.over that. People in the media, can play what we are
doing any way they want to play it and people all human
beings,.tend to believe that which they want to believe.
And they hear that which they want to hear. And I can
I can no more control the thinking of Americans as to
what we are doing than I can control what the media
says about me, which is not always pleasant. And I
can only do the very best job I can to do the task which
was assigned to us by the House of Representatives and
let the chips fall where they may as to what the public
thinks about what we're doing.
(APPLAUSE)
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Q: I would like to go back a few
years, of course it was 1922, Disarmament Conference,
Geneva, when we put restrictions on armaments, (INAUDIBLE).
other countries did. The follow-up of that was .'...
the Russians leading and ... completely, totally disarm.
Now to lead into our question here. Isn't all this
Intelligence directly related to the escalation of
armaments? And how in the world can we stop our
Intelligence in the midst of a continued Cold War?
MOD: Who is it directed to? Either one
of you or both?
COLBY : I think the reference to the 20's is
a good reference because I think that during the 20's
many people in the world shared the belief that the
world had been made safe for Democracy. We took a brand
new battleship out of Cape Hattaras and we sank it to
show that we believed in naval disarmaments. Secretary
Simpson closed up a code breaking unit because he said
that gentlemen don't read each other's mail.. Secretary
Simpson about 15 or 20 years. later of course was reading
as much German and Japanese mail as he could and we
needed that battleship. (LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
Intelligence tries to bring an accurate
perception of what is going on in the world. It does
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its best to be objective and independent and not
reflect the passions and enthusiams of every moment.
It tried to call the dangers in the world - to nnini-
out that democracies are really not the majority of the
world. They are only 30 odd countries out of the 140
United Nations members who really could be called
democracies in any reasonable sense of the world,
we are very close to being an endangered species.
And I think that we need intelligence to warn us. of the
threats around the world. I think that Intelligence is
providing us however an ability to negotiate about those
threats rather than merely to deter or to defend ourselves
against them.
The SALT agreements. depend upon our
Intelligence ability to monitor whether the other side
agrees and follows the agreements made. If the other
side would not allow us to visit their country and inspect
and if they don't run a free press, where we can see what
kinds of weapon systems they are, we need Intelligence to
see whether we can confidently make an agreement to reduce
the expenditures on both sides in these enormous weapons
systems that have been developed.
(APPLAUSE)
PIKE: I don't have any trouble agreeing
with what Mr. Colby says, if it worked. The problem is
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that anybody who can confuse next year's defense
budget, which I believe is the largest defense budget
in history in peacetime, with total disarmament is
just plain not looking at what is going on as far as
where your tax dollars are going.
The second is, the second point I would
like to make is that one of the things that our Committee
has been looking at in our Intelligence investiation is
our inability to predict what is going to happen in other
countries., our inability to predict what is in fact
happening today in other countries and'I was criticized
loudly earlier, for saying something that I will say
again, and that is with all of our intelligence gathering
capabilities, the way we handle our Intelligence in America
today, is such that my belief that if an attack were to
be launched on America we would not be aware of it.
(APPLAUSE)
COLBY: As I have stated on various other
occasions I deny that statement.
(APPLAUSE AND LAUGHTER)
I do not believe that Intelligence is a crystal ball
that can predict with precision the future. But I think
what. Intelligence does do today is to raise the consciousness
of our governmental officials, including our Congressmen,
and even our public through the briefings given to the
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press and to the Congress about events, so that they
are better informed about things abroad. I think our
perception of events abroad has on a number of, occasions.
allowed us to act in a fashion which. has avoided a
crisis abroad by having identified its likelihood
some time in.advance. And I think that as for a
threat to the United States from abroad, I think we are
well-equipped with intelligence of not only the capabilities
but also the current. intentions of the major nations
which could actually threaten the United States. (APPLAUSE)
MOD: If I can deal with one aspect of
that and raise a question for Mr. Colby because it does
present a problem both for the press and I think for the
public and the Congress, going back to Angola, the American
press, particularly in Angola has been made fully aware
as you have this morning, of the total Soviet-Cuban effort
in Angola, and I think that has been brought directly
to'the attention of the American people. My question
is how do the American people make a judgement on the
U.S. role in that sort of operation? Or any similar
operations given the fact that no similar information
as to what's going on on the other side is made available
to those same journalists?
COLBY: Under a law passed in December of
last year, the CIA is not permitted to conduct any
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activity abroad other than Intelligence gathering unless
this is the result of a finding by the President that
the activity is important to the national security and
secondly, it is reported in a timely fashion to the
appropriate committees, count them six, of the Congress.
Any activities of the CIA other than Intelligence
gathering abroad are within the requirements of the law.
MOD: Go. one step further then, would there
be objection if either committees that hand out these
reports or individual members then made that information
available so that the public...
COLBY: There are certain activities which
by definition, if they are going to be secret they are
-- they cannot be made publicly available. President
Ford once said that he would be delighted to share our
secrets with 214 million Americans provided it didn't
go outside of that group. (LAUGHTER) But that is not
a practical matter -- way of doing business.
I think the law that I referred to does
establish the committees of the Congress. as, what they
are called, representatives of the American people and
their judgements are expressed in the briefings that
they receive.
PIKE: I just have to say that I find
this concept preposterous. Here we are.. (APPLAUSE) Here
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we are involved what? Not in intelligence gathering,
not in even the assassination of somebody, it is a war
going on over there. That's what it is. It's a war.
And for us to to sit here in this room, in this nation,
a free nation with a free press and read in our press
day after day about what the Soviets are doing, but having
no knowledge as what America is doing is to me a travesty
on our Constitution.
(APPLAUSE AND A BOO)
MOD Without really beating a dead horse
but I have all the advantages, could L ask (LAUGHTER)
could I ask you Mr. Colby if there are 4,000 Cubans
in Angola and there is a substantial Soviet involvement
in place on the ground, from who are we keeping secrets
as to what the United States is doing?
COLBY: We are doing exactly what the
Russians are doing which is to say no comment.
(APPLAUSE - SOMEONE YELLED)
MOD: There are two questions that deal
with the future and I would like to try to get to those.
Mr.Pike would you please evaluate the pros and cons of
a Congressional Committee on Intelligence as against
returning to the situation that existed prior to the
establishment of your committee and Senator Church's committee?
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PIKE: Well I think the pros lie in the
fact that if you could have a new joint committee on
Intelligence with a revolving membership, a limited
period of time on the Committee, and perhaps more
important a revolving staff so that Mr. Colby's
beguiling manner would not co-opt them all in the early
days of the Committee, you could get reasonable oversight
by Congress and you could also make it possible for them
not to have to brief six separate committees on Congress
on what they were doing. You could improve the bureaucratic
process. The difficulties with it are largely political.
Hell hath no fury like the Committee Chairman whose
jurisdiction is threatened. And we would have a real
problem in establishing it because you can't. establish
the kind of committee that I would like to see without
removing the jurisdiction from those six committees
which have it now and if we were only going to add one
more committee to Mr. Colby's problems even I would
not be in favor of it.
(SLIGHT APPLAUSE)
MOD: Mr. Colby I know it's difficult
for you in your present position to do this but if you
could project yourself forward to a time when you don't
have your current responsibilities, do you have any
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ideas on a possible reorganization of the intelligence
community and perhaps a different role for the Director
of CIA or as has been discussed a new Director of
Intelligence who would then have control over all elements
of the Community.
COLBY: There of course, drawing bureaucratic
wiring diagrams is a favorite Washington pastime. I
really think that the points that I made earlier, the
need for better guidelines and for better superivisian
of our intelligence from the outside, are the keys to
making our Intelligence conform with the Constitution and
do the job that it's called upon.
There are inenumerable variations of
putting the Director downtown, separating him from CIA.
Dividing the CIA into different pieces. Having a different
relationship with some of the defense intelligence
activities. Use.... options there are quite numerable.
And we are going to look at them. The Administration is
looking at them, the Congress is undoubtedly looking at
its own variations that it is looking at, and in the
workings of this American constitutional process, something
will come out at the end.
I think in the process I am a little
conservative usually about the benefits to be brought from
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a sweeping reorganization because the.turbulence and
the upset frequently are very costly affair. I believe
the CIA is an entity which has established a certain
moral, a certain strength and confidence in its function
and one should be a little careful before one scatters
it td the wind in some search for some new potential
solution. So I think I really can't comment on the
specifics of it, pros and cons on. both sides and I
think they will be fully debated in the, months ahead.
MOD: Over on the left.
Q: James Rose, San Jose, California.
I would like to ask Director Colby if any violent actions.
in the last five years has been directed against
Americans and if so, compensation or some understanding
has been reached with them later?
COLBY: No violent actions have been
taken against Americans.
MOD: Over on the right.
Q: This is directed to Mr. Colby. ....
Based largely on Operation Phoenix, which was responsible
for the assassination and torture of tens of thousands
of civilians in South Vietnam alone, there is a process
going on right now to have you formally excumunicated
from the Roman Catholic Church. I would like your comment?
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-36
The process is already underway.
COLBY: Well I'll let the process
continue to work.
(LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)
MOD: We are coming down to the end
of our time. Do either one of you have a closing c
comment?
PIKE: I think this discussion has revealed
our essential differences as I think they are not as
great as might be presupposed by some of you. I think
we both believe in a strong and effective Intelligence
gathering operation. I think we both actually agree
that we have a strong Intelligence gathering operation.
I think where we come to the parting of the ways is where
we come down on the issue of strength through secrecy
as opposed to strength through honesty and to me
as I said at the outset, what is needed most in Amerjca
is to make our people believe that their government is
an honest government and that their government tells them
the truth. And if our people believe that the government
is an honest government doing the best it can, telling
the truth, that will contribute more to our strength than
any degree of secrecy can ever. do.
(APPLAUSE)
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COLBY: I think Mr. Pike said it very
well. I think that the need for renewed public confidence
in our government and our Intelligence service is there.
When I went into the Intelligence Service, some years
ago, : frankly never anticipated sitting in'this audience
like this discussing the activities of the-Intelligence
Service, but I think it's a necessary thing and I think
we have done what we could to react to this requirement
of our people for confidence in their servic,-We have changed some things in our Service
to conform better with our Constitution. We will have
some additional changes probably imposed on us through
Legislation and through new procedures. I think we in
the Intelligence business welcome this because we realize
that we are protecting the American Constitution. That
is what we swore to protect when we took our jobs. And
I think we can arrive at a necessary compromise between
those secrets that are necessary to provide Intelligence
as a means to protect America and those secrets that
aren't necessary and that consequently should not be
kept secret. And we are going to hammer those differences
out in this process, constitutional process, but I think
that the American people are going to be content that
their representatives knows some of the secrets that cannot
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be shared with 214 million Americans because they would
go to the other people in the world who might have designs
against us. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
MOD: I want to thank Mr. Pike and Mr.
Colby and thank the audience for joining us here today.
We hope you will all be back when the National Town'
Meetings resume again later this month.
(APPLAUSE)
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