(UNTITLED)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000800070013-7
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 14
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 8, 1998
• Sequence Number: 13
• Publication Date: July 23, 1958
• Content Type: MIN

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. . . . The 51st meeting of the CIA. Career Council convened on
i
25X1A9a
Wednesday, 23 July 1958, at 3:30 p.m., in the DCI Conference Room. The
following were present:
Gordon M. Stewart, D/Pers, Chairman
Robert Amory, Jr., DD/I, Member
25X1A5a1 W-DD/P, Alternate for DTR, Member
Alternate for DD/P, Member
25X1A9a L n B. Kir , atrick IG, Member
D/CO, Member
Lawrence K. White, DD/S, Member
25X1A5a1 Executive Secretary
eporter
. . . . The Board remained in executive session (interviewing nominees for
the Senior Officer School of the Foreign Service) until 4:00 p.m.,
at which time the Chairman opened the meeting and it proceeded as
follows:
MR. STEWART: The minutes of the last meeting, are they approved?
L Members indicated in the affirmative.
Item 2 is the memorandum from Colonel White on "Agency Policy on
Length of Overseas Tours of Duty." Any comments?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Yes. I have no objection basically to what the DDS
proposes, but I do feel, particularly in the operational side of the house, that
it is to the best interests of the Agency to get away, really, from a "tour of
duty" per se. We now see this, actually, in some of our people who are staying
over for 4+, 6 or 8 years. I think as far as this is primarily an administrative
mechanism, it's all right. I agree completely that two years is an absurd tour,
in this business, and that applies as much on the administrative side--not so
much in Commo, but in other parts--as it does on the operational side.
It applies in the higher grades in the Office of
Communications. But a radio operator or a radio cryptographer - he has to plan
pretty definitely what he is going to do, with kids in school, etc. We are
following this now, exactly.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: As far as the Clandestine Services are concerned, if
we find that somebody works out very well in a particular area, that it is to our
advantage to leave him there until he starts to deteriorate or needs reacclimation
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in this country, or needs to be brought back for some desk work--in other words,
my opinion simply is: let's not solidify a folklore or a feeling around the
Agency that it's a two year period or it's a four year period - it's an overseas
duty.
COLONEL WHITE: I thoroughly agree with that. We, at least in the DDS
side, have been the ones, actually, who have been adhering pretty closely to the
policy, because at the time we got this thing started we had so few people that
had been overseas. But I did feel, as a result of my trip--you would find a Commo
man or a Logistics man, or one of Bob's people, or one of Dick's people - and they
all had different standards so far as overseas tours were concerned. And in most
every case if everything is working out all right it certainly should be something
longer than two years. My idea was to encourage making it longer than two years
rather than putting a limitation on how many. But regardless, if he stayed overseas
any number of tours, he would be coming home on home leave every two years,
theoretically, anyway.
MR. AMORY: Yes. We have great sympathy with this, and we feel in many
of our cases they're sufficiently flexible. So I have no argument with it. But
there is a different kind of objective that we have; for instance, the JIB ones -
where we treat it as a two year school, and if I have one slot over there I would
rather put 15 people through it in a generation than 10 people through it, because
there is more to fertilize the boys back here in M Building. So long as this is
understood to be a rule of reason and not a mechanical one, it's all right.
25X1A5a1 The Boss needs some education on this. If you said to him
somebody's tour was up he would say, "What do you mean - his tour is up?" He needs
a little education on this point.
COLONEL WHITE: One thing I am interested in in this is that a mechanic
be set up which requires us to do certain things at a certain time. What I am
proposing here is that it be standard practice that when a man has completed one
year then sometime between one year and 15 months we say, "All right, you're going
to stay another year" or "You're going to come home on home leave."
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I feel, in view of what Bob said, plus the fact that
you have three or four different kinds of apples in your basket, what we have to
maintain is the flexibility, but what we want to lay down is a general policy that,
generally, we are going to follow. Because it seems to me that every guy you do a
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little differently: when you're sending an ~ out to the Station you say one 25X1A5a1
thing, and when you're sending a Finance officer you say another thing, and if
it's one of your production types you're sending you say a third thing. But Dick
is absolutely right, the Boss doesn't understand "a tour of duty." When he sends
"x" out to he expects him to stay there until he calls him home. 25X1A6a
There would have to be one modification of this.
We frequently have to extend them 3 months or 6 months to keep the place covered.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a So it shouldn't be limited.
really.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Maybe what we need is more a statement of philosophy,
MR. STEWART: I thought that was what this was. I honestly took it that
way, as not a limitation but simply a way of doing business. And I might speak
on the question of DD/P, since Dick hasn't--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: We are talking for him. JLaughterJ
MR. STEWART: I find that it helps a little bit to know where you stand,
and particularly the fellow who is standing in line waiting to go over and replace
somebody - he likes to know whether that fellow is in fact coming back. There has
been a certain amount of fuzziness in this business. The Divisions always have
difficulty--they plan a replacement and then at the very last minute the fellow
sends a wire and says, "I'm not coming home, I'm going to extend a year." I think
it would be orderly and helpful to have these things pinned down a little bit.
Now, everybody can make exceptions. We are not talking about Station Chiefs--I
think Station Chiefs are a category by themselves, and a matter which the Boss
would be concerned about.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: If this is going to be a published document I would
recommend that we change this to "Agency Policy on Length of Overseas Service" -
then we start getting rid of the semantics of "tour of duty." And then perhaps
expand this philosophy a bit. There are other factors involved. Cover factors
are involved in certain areas where if we stand out too much we are going to
destroy what little facility we have.
25X1A9a A tour of duty has to be in some manner related to the
tour of duty of the cover organization.
COLONEL WHITE: There are two things you want to get into the philosophy,
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first, that it is implied that we want longer tours of service and not shorter,
and second, early notice as to whether the guy is going to come home or stay
over there.
MR. STEWART: That is right - reasonable notice.
Well, let's turn out a piece of paper which expresses all of this
and let the Board look at it.
We now turn to the Uniform Overtime Compensation Policy, which is
the subject of the Staff Study here, which includes recommendations. In addition
to those recommendations made here--which are mine--there have been numerous
others. One that I quoted was Kirk's. There was also a recommendation made
recently at a meeting that I held that we ask people in grades 13, 14 and 15 not
to draw overtime; in other words, to put it in the reverse, that we not authorize-
overtime for people in those grades. That is simply a variation of the basic
?5X1 A9a
principle. The recommendation tha made this morning was that
we accept Mr. Kirkpatrick's recommendation and add to it paragraph h of my recom-
mendations, which permits or allows for exceptions, and also my paragraph g, which
25X1A9a refers: to lump sum payments for persons who serve over 72 hours in hazardous, trying
or unusually arduous jobs. Also, I imagine you would want to
do something with the duty officer assignments - which is $10 per tour. Would you
object to that?
25X1A9a This is the first time I had seen that. I hadn't
really thought about that. I had the idea that a duty officer was like an OD.
I have an addition which I would like to take up, if I may.
25X1A9a
MR. STEWART: Certainly. I am merely introducing this.
25X1A9a
Before you leave that one--I did have a slight
change in Kirk's paragraph e.(l). It should be specified that the approving super-
visor must be a grade 12 or above, so that an 11 isn't approving overtime for himself.
And in the next paragraph I thought there ought to be a saving clause such as Mr.
Stewart has in paragraph h of his recommendations.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me say here that Kirk has no pride of authorship
in these proposals., and I simply threw them into the mill to get the pump primed.
I really have only two principles which I think we ought to have: uniformity and
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records--because I think we suffer certain major losses as a result of the lack
of these. So that is all I really had in mind, and any formula that is reasonable,
practical, and not too complicated, I think we need.
25X1A9a
A suggestion that I wanted to make is that since we have
a Career Service, that we divide this thing up and put in one category the
technicians, to include code clerks and people of that kind, in another category
the secretarial and stenographic personnel, and then in the whole other large
group those career officers in the Career Service. I would pay overtime to the
first two groups and pay no overtime to the other group - to none of them, on the
basis that if we are going to have a Career Service in which we take pride, and
get special compensations for, and special legislation, and all the rest of it--
people don't have to punch timeclocks, they have reasonable freedom of action,
get long home leaves from their overseas tours--this all works itself out in the
end. And any plan involving paying these fellows overtime is cumbersome, involves
an awful lot of administration and paperwork, and trying to fill out who does
more overtime becomes hopeless in the last analysis, and I honestly think we would
rather see the whole thing cut out as far as the Career Service is concerned.
25X1A9a
About that saving clause--in the Signal Center we
do have a. few GS-13's who are on all the time during something like the Middle
East situation now.
25X1A9a But your people I would put in a different category. They
work overtime because they are asked to. But just because some agent has to
rearrange his time so he can meet somebody on the street at midnight--that's differ-
ent. I think we have to regard this a little more the way the military services
do, that if it's a crisis you work on Saturday and Sunday and that's the end of it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: In private industry you're expected to.
COLONEL WHITE: And the professionals in the Career Service--
25X1A9a Give them no overtime.
MR. AMORY: That would be fine with me as far as most of it goes, but
OCI is sort of a law unto itself and it runs on sort of a newspaper schedule.
They work a great deal of overtime. They have a low grade structure, and they have
a nice stable method of doing business now that is, frankly, based on overtime pay
to these medium grade guys.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Those medium grade guys are there to stay at that
medium grade for their career. If they're on their way up, that is something
different. Both Dick and I are newspaper men, and I do know that United States
News said, "When you're a professional you get paid for 4+0 hours but you. will
work whatever hours are necessary to get the work done."
MR. AMORY: One of the problems is you can't separate--one guy may be
an Afghan expert with not much breadth of possibilities beyond that, so he's going
to remain a GS-9, but when there's a crisis in Afghan he expects the small bonus
that he gets.
But I must .admit that I am very sympathetic and if the Agency is
willing to put this into effect I'll say it's a good idea, and, if necessary, we
may have a look at the OCI grade structure.
25X1A9a I was going to say, couldn't a modification of that take
care of it?
MR. AMORY: You see, at any time of day a news message comes in and the
poor guy comes in all the way from Falls Church and looks at it and maybe changes
one word in an item.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There are admin techniques to lighten that burden,
like rotation, and so on. But it seems to me it's true in any form of professional
endeavor that a man, somewhere along in his early career, maybe between the time
he's 25 and 35, he makes the choice of maybe more take home pay today or be in that
category for advancement. And I think it has to be standard--because OCI is one
of the offices that people point to, "Why do those guys get overtime and we don't?"
MR. AMORY: What is done down at your desks?
25X1A9a Those fellows work around the clock on some of them.
MR. AMORY: Do they get overtime now?
25X1A9a Yes, at least in certain grades. That is one of the troubles
of this whole system.
MR. AMORY: In other words, if we adopted this OCI wouldn't be the only
people--
25X1A9a
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Oh, no--field stations--
We have no overtime schedule authorized anywhere
in my office. Overtime is paid for according to regulations.
Is 0
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: A good illustration is that at U. S. New when I
went from sort of the clerk category into the professional category, one week I
was making something like $87.00 because I had so much overtime and the next
week I went on a straight 40-hour a week paycheck, but I became a professional
at that point.
COLONEL WHITE: Gordon, I don't think there is any question that Dick's
proposal is the solution which you shoot for ultimately, but my only reservation
about it--and I'm perfectly willing to cross that bridge--is what the morale
effect might be if you just did it right now.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You have to do it some day.
COLONEL WHITE: As far as I'm concerned, if Dick is willing to cross it
he has the most serious concern, and if he's willing, I am.
25X1A6a MR. KIRKPATRICK: We get a letter from the _
for example,
totalling up how many hundreds of hours these people sacrifice because they can't
get compensatory time off.
25X1A9a I think this is a bridge we have to cross.
MR. AMORY: The Foreign Service has no overtime?
25X1A9a Yes, it's authorized but they don't have the money so
they rarely pay it.
MR. AMORY: But certainly in the military the commissioned officers
never do a penny of overtime.
25X1A9a
Nor an enlisted man, and they're available 24
hours a day.
COLONEL WHITE: I would recommend we draw up a simple policy statement
along these lines, and publish it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Sure you're going to have people who are going to
gripe and maybe even quit. On the other hand, overtime can be abused, and it is
abused, in fact. Even around here people come in an hour early or stay an hour
late, or if they take sick leave on Friday then they work on Saturday to get the
extra overtime. They use techniques like that, and those people, frankly, I
would think the Agency could do better without.
25X1A9a
Gordon, would it be useful if I were to send you a memorandum,
V 1P
as Chairman of the Career Council, incorporating at least what I have been
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MR. STEWART: Yes.
MR. AMORY: Could you circulate it to us?
COLONEL WHITE: I'd like to speak to Kirk's second point. I'm not
too sure, Kirk, and I haven't done enough homework to take a strong stand on it,
but I'm not sure that the recordkeeping -if I know what you mean, and I think I
do - I think what you have in mind is that we ought to keep records on all the
hours worked by everybody, including those of us sitting around this table, for
which we don't get extra pay, and use that in the way that J. Edgar does.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You use it two ways. You don't use it solely for that.
It's a management tool, on the one hand--I mean, when you pull out somebody's
file to review it you want to know what his work habits are--at least I do.
COLONEL WHITE: Don't you have to depend on your supervisors for that,
rather than on a machine?
25X1A9a Couldn't we ask for that on the Fitness Report as an
expression rather than a mathematical total?
COLONEL WHITE: I'm concerned about two things on that: first, the
amount of work that it will entail to keep all those records, and, also, whether
they will be meaningful within the Agency. Now, Mr. Hoover does make capital of
this--
MR. KIRKPATRICK: A hell of a lot of capital.
COLONEL WHITE: --however, in the six years or more that I have been
going up to the budget hearings there has never been an occasion, that I know of,
in the six years of budget hearings that I have attended, where we would have made
any money, as far as our budget goes, in making a big point of this sort of thing.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Red, this isn't a life or death matter, and I would
settle if you would answer me two questions: how much more work there would be--
everyone of us has to fill out a T&A, so there's one filled out on every employee,
technically.
MR. AMORY: It just shows 4+0 hours..
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is my point, how much extra work would be
involved if whoever fills it out for you puts in 12 hours, or whatever it might
be. And that is what I am asking Red, how much extra work it's going to involve
if these are filled out accurately.
UPI
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25X1A9a Not for pay purposes but for record purposes.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And the other thing is if someone can check down
at the Bureau and find out how much work it involved there.
MR. STEWART: I can answer your question, its a lot of work. I have
talked to the Comptroller about this. He doesn't like keeping these accounts
for compensatory time because they are a great bother. It's not so much a matter
of recording, it's a matter of tabulating and totalling it up. In other words,
to really do it, it's a lot of work.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Hoover, every year at the time his appropriation
comes up, announces that the Bureau boys have worked the equivalent of six million
dollars of overtime without compensation. That is simply an illustration. Now,
Mr. Hoover is a smart enough administrator, in my books, that there must be a
reason why he is doing this. I'd like to know what the reason is. Because we
could look at the Ouija board and come up with some figure ourselves.
25X1A9a
individual if on our Fitness Reports an evaluation could include the statement:
is always willing to work, worries about the length of time, or does just the
minimum amount required of him. When you get into the higher grades the xi
review panel could consider whether the fellow comes in and gets his job done--
and this clearly affects his promotion.
MR. STEWART: I have never experienced any difficulty in finding that
out about a person--I mean, as a practical matter, you know whether he is punching
the clock or whether he is really hitting it.
COLONEL WHITE: Kirk, I will be glad to undertake, for everybody's
benefit, a little more thorough study as to how much work it is.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'm just interested because of my experience in
private industry. I have never yet heard of an organization that didn't keep
accurate time and attendance records on all of its people.
MR. STEWART: To extend that to the overseas, Kirk, I think you read the
staff study--and I believe the facts I put in there are honest facts--you don't
know and you can't measure how much time those fellows are working because there
is so much gray area.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: You don't know that about the press people either.
MR. STEWART: When you were working with the U. S. News & World Report
and they paid you for 1l0 hours, did you turn in something that said, "I got
paid for 40 hours but I worked so many hours"?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The time and attendance shows it.
MR. STEWART: I'd like to raise a question which I think has very much
of a bearing on Dick's point, and that is, how do you differentiate between these
various groups--who in the Agency would fall into the technician class, and who
are your officers? Can you tell us in DD/P which is which?
25X1A9a
There are going to have to be some administrative deter-
minations, I don't think there is any question about that, but I think those
determinations are going to be easier to make than how much overtime Joe works
over what Pete works, etc.
25X1A9a
It's the same as an officer--on call all the
MR. STEWART: A simple way would be by grade.
25X1A9a I'd be inclined to do it this way: those fellows that are
rated as intelligence officers fall in this category, and the technicians in
another, and the clerk-stenos in another.
25X1A9a A JOT should be considered a professional.
MR. KIRKPACRICK: He's a professional the day he comes in.
25X1A9a He ought to be pounding on the door to get in to work.
MR. STEWART: I would make the suggestion that we sort out the people
first and then publish the policy.
25X1A9a I would like to make the observation that we have had
some experience in OTR trying to categorize people on a functional basis, and
it's very hard. It seems to me the general objectives of this policy are clear,
and it would probably be more acceptable, easier to MUM administer, and would
serve the same purpose, if we would have a grade cut-off point.
MR. STEWART: I think the Head of each Career Service can say who is
in the officer class and who isn't, and if in Training you want to say everybody
above 9 is in the officer class, I would see no objection--I don't see that that
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would be incompatible at all; whereas if Dick has grade 7 JOTS that he wants to
regard as officers, he would just put them in that category and that would be it.
Actually, what you will probably do is have your grades as a base, and then dip
below that grade to include those people you mean to include--as I had in my
proposal, that your junior intelligence officer be treated the same as your
senior intelligence officer.
25X1A9a I agree with this absolutely but I would like to sound
25X1A9a
this possible warning: that we may be backing into the problem of setting up an
officer and an enlisted man category in the Agency, which we avoided quite
seriously when we set this up.
COLONEL WHITE: We should avoid calling it that. We should define it
in terms of those people who can control their working hours and those who can't.
That is all that is involved, as I see it. This isn't a
question of first and second-class citizens, this is a different conception of work.
25X1A9a
If a man is a higher grade we say, "We expect more
of you"--we don't call them officers. A radio station chief may be an 11, and he
is on call any time a transmitter blows up, or anything else, and he doesn't get
paid for overtime.
COLONEL WHITE: Well, if we are agreed on the principle, we can work
MR. STEWART: There is one point we haven't taken up and that is these
night duty tours, whether we pay them according to the present formula or a flat
rate. I would strongly recommend the flat rate.
COLONEL WHITE: Under this concept why do we pay them? They can be
given compensatory time off. Certainly any duty officer would be a professional.
25X1A9a Well, in the military an OD gets time off. He
makes his inspections after midnight and he gets called out when the guard needs
him, and then normally the Commanding Officer lets him go home and he doesn't have
to come back unless called for. It varies as to the hours of compensatory time he
gets off. He gets no money.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
He gets consideration but no money.
Consideration only, yes.
MR. STEWART: Well, unless there is something further on that, let's turn
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to the next item, which is the "Certificate of Merit with Distinction." This
is a staff study with recommendations.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I like it.
25X1A9a We found a psychological barrier to awarding the Certi-
ficate of Merit, which nobody can quite put their finger on. We budgeted for
100 Certificates in each of the last two years and we have only passed out 12
in two years. It is believed to be due to the fact that instead of being merit
it's a high honor. Actually, it's designed to award the working level. One
purpose in creating this would be to release this inhibition of awarding the Cer-
tificate of Merit, and then, further, it does provide the opportunity of rewarding
those who are in the higher grades. Let's say, in place of hazardous duty pay
you reward them for the merit that they show in accepting a hazard. We solve
two very difficult and troublesome problems with one fell swoop. In other words,
this would provide the opportunity of rewarding, in terms of dollars, those persons
who have demonstrated their acceptance of a hazard, rather than pre-identifying
the positions that they hold.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
It looks all right to me.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Move we accept it as presented.
Yes.
. . . Motion carried . . .
This will go to the Director now for his approval.
MR. STEWART: If I could detain you just one minute longer I'd like to
give you a follow-up on our early retirement proposal. Very briefly, we are
going in for the Ellsworth formula.
/-Mr. Stewart then quoted from paper entitled "Tentative
Detailed Description of Proposed Agency Retirement System."J
Now, these proposals actually translate what we took to be the
intent of the Council at the last meeting. This is not the Bill that we send
to Congress, by any means. We simply have to know what we are getting into from
an actuarial point of view, if we do these Various things, and on the basis of
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the statistics that we will be able to give them, and their analysis of these
statistics, we will know where we stand. I wanted to let you know that we were
doing more than just the Ellsworth formula on this.
25X1A9a Good.
MR. AMORY: Is this pretty parallel to the Foreign Service one?
25X1A9a It incorporates several things which the Foreign Service
have which the Civil Service don't have, and therefore, since the Foreign Service
have it, maybe we can get it. It incorporates the principle that we do not pre-
identify the group but that the retirement benefit is based on their overseas
service--which was the decision of the Council last time. It incorporates another,
new request of the Foreign Service--which has been cleared by the Bureau of the
Budget--which is extremely valuable, which allows a person to retire from CIA,
retain part of his annuity, and be reemployed elsewhere in the Government. That
will enable the Government to compete with industry for persons who are no longer
useful to CIA but may be useful to some other part of Government. Then a prin-
cipal feature is that it lowers the mandatory age limit of 70, which was passed
during World War II in order to avoid the retirement of certain persons that were
needed. The employee groups got that and they hang on to it in dead earnest at
the moment.
MR. AMORY: What is your schedule on this? Try to get something to
the Bureau of the Budget and then to Congress next year?
25X1A9a The schedule would be a review, actuarial analysis, and
a costing of this program by the actuaries in September, a review by the Council
in October, presentation to the Director in October or November, and get it to
the Bureau of the Budget in November or December.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let's speed it up internally so that we can get it
to the Bureau of the Budget by early November, otherwise you won't get it to the
next Congress, because to my mind I think the Congress will be more favorable
than the Executive branch.
25X1A9a The White House is almost committed to helping us get
what we have here.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I know, but there are a couple of Indians down the line.
25X1A9a It's almost certain the Civil Service Commission will
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COLONEL WHITE: Kirk is right, it's not going to be easy to get it
through. We are going to have to get the Boss steeled up personally to carry
the torch.
. . . . The meeting adjourned at 4:40 p.m. . . . .
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