CIA CAREER COUNCIL 6TH MEETING 4:00 P. M., 21 DECEMBER 1954 DCI CONFERENCE ROOM - ADMINISTRATION BUILDING

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000700030010-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 25
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: October 3, 2002
• Sequence Number: 10
• Content Type: MIN

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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
6th Meeting
4:0O p.m., 21 December 195+
DCI Conference Room - Administration Building
3 4
(Va IzI
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CIA CAREER COUNCIL
6th Meeting
4:OO p.m., 21 December 195+
DCI Conference Room - Administration Building
Harrison G. Reynolds
AD/P, Chairman
Matthew Baird
D/TR, Member
Richard Helms
COPS-DD/P, Alt. for DD/P, Member
Lyman B. Kirkpatrick
IG, Member
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H. Gates Lloyd
ADD/A, Alt. for DD/A, Member
SA/DD/I, Alt. for DD I, Member
xecu ve Secretary
Executive-
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Office o
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r.
Guest
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The 6th Meeting of the CIA Career Council convened at E4:00 p.m.,
21 December 1954, in the DCI Conference Room, Administration Building, with
Mr. Harrison G. Reynolds presiding . . .
MR. REYNOLDS: The meeting will please come to order.
I presume you 'have all read the minutes of the 5th meeting which were
attached to the agenda. Any comments or additions, changes or other remarks?
If not, they stand approved.
At the request of the Inspector General, this meeting was called to
handle item 2 on the agenda, which reads:
"The Director has requested that the CIA Career Council consider
whether the Agency should have a uniform policy for the payment 25X1
of overtime in senior grades. The problem has arisen due to
the establishment of different policies by the several components
of the Agency in implementin aragraph 5a.2. of Notice
g
Memorandum from Assistant
Attachments: Notice N
Director for Personnel dated 17 Dec 54; summary of overtime
policies presently in force in the several components of the
Agency."
Kirk, did you want to address yourself to this problem?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think the problem is prefaced very well in the
summary you have prepared of the overtime policies presently in farce. It
seems to me this illustrates what we are heading into, which is going to be
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a considerable morale problem throughout the Agency, by the components exer-
cising different criteria in paying overtime.
In an effort to join the battle as quickly as possible,I think
the best solution that I see here is the one adopted by the DD/P that indicates
where an individual cannot take compensatory time off due to the fact that he
probably can't take all of his annual leave, that he be paid, and~that otherwise
it be compensatory time off; and that that be a standard policy throughout the
Agency for grade 11 and above.
MR. REYNOLDS: The Office of Personnei recommends, in the last para-
graph, grade GS-11 or higher be granted compensatory time off.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: . . . Be granted compensatory time off unless their
leave status is such that they cannot possibly take it, and if that is the case,
that they be paid for it. In other words, it's true in many parts of the
Agency that your senior officers simply are hard pressed to take whatever
number of days of annual leave they get. Many of them, in fact, sacrifice it.
After they have accumulated the 30 days it is just wiped out. Consequently,
if they can't take their annual leave they obviously aren't going to be able
to take compensatory time off. My point is that if the individual is one of
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those who is forced to work overtime at a particular problem but is not in
such constant demand that he can take compensatory time off, them fine;. but
if he is one of those individuals that is in such constant demandithat he
can't take compensatory time off, let's pay him, and let's make it a straight
across-the-board Agency policy. I know perfectly well some offices are going
to say, "We can't afford it." I don't think that should be an office prerogative.
I think it should be Agency-wide and the offices will have to adjust their
budgets accordingly, with the aid and assistance of the DD/A. But I think
if some offices say, "We can't do that because we need so much money for travel,
and so much for paper clips, etc." - we are going to have an awful problem.
I think it is as simple as that. I think it should be standard across -the-
board. I wouldn't want to ask for the money, but basically speaking, if the
GS-15's in another office get it, then I owe it to my family to ask for it,
too. We are going to have a morale problem in the Agency. The Agency can be
criticized for having a group of associated offices rather than one organization.
MR. REYNOLD:: Has the Comptroller's Office any comment. to make on
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I agree with you that there ought to be one of the two
for overtime. In other words, basically what you say, I think, is that all
grade 15's should get equal treatment. Now the only question that I have is
whether the reverse of that should be that you would grant overtime to all
persons as long as there is sufficient money for it, and otherwise you grant
them compensatory time, because it seems to me that that is really what the
intent of this law was, that they be paid for overtime. It is true, Congress
doesn't provide any money for it, but I think the intent was there.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: The intent was there. My point, in answer to your
specific question, is that when an office starts running low on its budget
so it cannot pay overtime, then I think it is a supervisory responsibility
to say to the next echelon up: "I am running into this problem. We have
work to do which is going to call for overtime. What do I do about it? Can
you give me more money to last this Fiscal Year or shall I cut out some of the
work?" When we get that pressure we will get a better Agency as a result of
it, frankly. 25X1A9A
MR. My idea differs from yours to the extent that you
would have everybody granted compensatory time first - I mean, if I under-
stood you correctly.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me rephrase it again. What I say is that those
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that can take the compensatory time - grade 11 and above - should; be granted
that time. It should be mandatory that they take compensatory tine rather
than be paid for it. But those that cannot take compensatory time, due to the
fact that they cannot be spared long enough from their jobs to take compensa-
tory time off, should be paid for it.
25X1A9A MR.O Could we all look at paragraph 3.a.2, which is marked
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in red, because that is the Agency policy right now - just what you have said,
Kirk, and that Notice was coordinated throughout the Agency before it was put
out. It's on page 4, on the left-hand page. That is the Agency Oolicy, which
we presume was coordinated throughout the Agency before it was issued. Now
it's a question of interpreting this rather than changing the policy, as I see it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Making sure everybody understands what this means.
That it is uniformly applied. I think the DD/P policy,
implements this policy in the best way it can
MR. REYNOLDS: Any other comments from members of the Council?
which I got from Mr.
be stated.
Signal Center and the Cable Secretariat, which is not mine, have Qvertime every
I have a slightly different problem. The
week and nights when the traffic piles up, as it did in PB Success. In PB
Success they pulled in everbody they could get and worked on night. shifts.
So I ruled that overtime would be paid, because they can't take compensatory
time because their work is so scheduled that if they take their annual and
sick leave, that's it. but if there isn't enough money to go around those
other people who have to work are going to take compensatory time, but the
scheduled people are going to get the overtime because they work Saturdays
and Sundays. They are scheduled to do that, certain ones of them.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There is a basic operational supply and demand
to this. If you started saying you are out of money, then you are going to
have to get more people or more money.
when it comes to a special processing you have to have the overtime work.
I said a GS-9 or above in my Office - for the sporadic overtime - if he spends
a couple of hours a night or comes down Saturday morning for a couple of hours
to get something out he doesn't get it pay for the overtim], but if it
There are enough people to do the job but,
happens regularly, and I have them down there every Saturday morning, that is
the law permits employees in grade GS-9 and
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below to make the choice, so that the break point must be between:the 10
This is something that I put out just by
word of mouth, that when you are a GS-9 you are an officer, and an officer
should be available 2L hours a day when an emergency requires it.; but if they
are regularly required to spend more time, then I think it is a question of
MR. REYNOLDS: Any comments from the DD/I or the DD/A in this matter?
MR.I I We think the way it is written is perfectly satis-
factory. Obviously there are going to be differences throughout offices. I
think the important thing is to enforce tblis policy strictly, and; make certain
that everybody understands it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'd go to the extent of suggesting that after this
meeting today a clarifying Notice might be put out as to exactly what this means,
so everybody can read and understand it.
I
I'd like to point out that we had one office drop
30 percent in hours of overtime under this policy because the higher grades
were not paid but they had been paying them before, and, by golly, some people
were not dropping in on Saturdays - which was good.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is the second subject, actually. After we
deal with this I would like to deal with supervisory responsibility for the
control of overtime.
MR. REYNOLDS': That is the most important point, in my opinion.
There can easily be people who lay aside their work in a basket and say, "This
is Saturday work." It has been done, and we know it only too well. That is
supervisory responsibility.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There seems to be general agreement on the policy,
though. I haven't heard any strong, dissenting voices.
MR. REYNOLDS: I assume the DD/A and the Director of Training also
MR. BAIRD: We can live within the motion, but, as I pointed out,
is an entirely different problem, and as long as we are running as
many courses as we are, and there is a demand for them, we don'tfeel that
we can cancel a course. The only way we can give compensatory time is by can-
celling a course and saying, "There will be no course given in February, and
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"Feasible" is not a very strong word.
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you take off."
MR. HELMS: I think you are well protected under this.
MR. BAIRD: We can live within it. But I was very interested to hear
what you had to say, because, on the Fitness Report, I just signed a piece of
paper saying that everybody who is delinquent on a Fitness Report; will come
in Saturday and complete his Fitness Reports, and there will be rzo compensatory
time for it. He does. it on his own time. And they will do it.
MR. HELMS: What a slave driver you are. fLaughter7
MR. BAIRD: I don't know any other way to get these Fitness Reports
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Well, I hope you like them.
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MR. REYNOLDS: Are you ready for the question, gentlemen?
MR I What is the motion?
MR. REYNOLDS: Do I hear a motion that paragraph I be adopted by
the Agency as an overtime policy, and that a clarifying Notice be issued?
MR. HELMS: I so move.
MR. BAIRD: If it is necessary.
MR. REYNOLDS: I believe it is necessary, Matt, because there has
been confusion already today on it.
25X1A9A MR. BAIRD: A clarifying Notice on the existing Regulation would do it.
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I would prefer that. When you say
"cannot use
annual leave" - does that mean toda .
MR.
MR
Any person who has accrued more than a normal amount.
Maybe he hasn't been around long enough to accrue it.
MR. REYNOLDS: A clarifying Notice on the existing Regulation.
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I think it is going to be equally hard to judge
what is meant by "cannot use annual leave".
MR. REYNOLDS: The motion has been made. Do I hear a second?
MR.I I would like to have one other thing clarified before
you pass on this motion. In drawing up this paper you show the various differ-
ences in these offices. Now, for example, as I remember it, the; Office of
Personnel has adopted a policy of giving compensatory time off as the general
thing, in lieu of paying overtime. The Comptroller has adopted the opposite.
The Comptroller has, in exercising administrative judgment, said: I can't
spare people generally for compensatory time off so I am going to pay them
overtime for all overtime they work now, as long as I have sufficient money
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to do so. He makes this one exception, that where there is a person who has
very little annual leave, because of his newness in the government, that he
would perhaps make an exception, because it would be to that person's advantage
to take annual leave in lieu of being paid for it. Now, is the objection to
that exercising of administrative judgment that way? The way this is worded
it gives you the opportunity to say that you can't spare compensatory time,
and what I understand you are trying to say is that you believe that people
should be spared compensatory time except where they themselves can't take
that much time.
Tit. KIRKPATRICK: By "they themselves" I mean by their: supervisors
not permitting them to take it. For example, anybody who has been in the govern-
ment 10 years gets 26 days' annual leave. What is the maximum leave they get?
26 days.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: How many people in senior positions,jGS-11 and
above, can take 26 days' annual leave in this Agency? There aren't many.
MR.F__ IThen you aren't objecting or don't see any;objection
to how the Comptroller interprets this?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: No, because I think you are saying almost the same
thing the DD/P has said except in slightly different phraseology: Am I wrong?
MR. Then I don't quite see what these differences are. There
are a lot of differences as to how it is applied, but if the only difference
is that you are saying-that they must get compensated for their overtime, whether
it is paid or time off, that is one thing; but if you are saying that generally
they should receive compensatory time off in lieu of being paid for it, that is
still another thing. I'm not quite sure whether you are saying both or not.
121R. Doesn't the Notice say that generally people should
take compensatory time rather than be paid for it?
MR Yes, it does, but it leaves it up to administrative judgment
as to which way you apply it. I think this is alright. I don't quarrel with this
as it is written. but I am still not clear whether your point is that there are
those who are not giving anybody any compensation, whether it's time off or pay,
as compared with those who do. And if that is the main point then I think that
is the point you should get across in this Notice.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think everybody should do the same across this
Agency. I don't think we want our Junior Edgar Hoovers operating this office
and somebody else operating this other office, and somebody else; saying, "I
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25X1A9A don't want to see any overtime show up in your time and attendance records."
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You are going to get different administrati re practices.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Anticipated in advance, recorded on four different
forms, authorized and ordered.
MR. REYNOLDS: I don't think you pay fndicatirg Mr. unless
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you have a copy of such an order.
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No, we don't.
MR. REYNOLDS: It must be authorized in order to get the pay.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think you will find that your administrative
officers in the Cable Secretariat send the Comptroller a monthly notice.
Oh, yes.
MR. LLOYD: but your point is there are certain offices' that don't
order it but expect the work to be done.
0
Then if that is the main point here, then you have a
point that needs clarifying.
25X1A9A MR. HELMS: Those boys can't read, then.
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If you are just trying to get uniformity of application
then I don't think leaving this as the policy is going to get that, because you
have all the opportunity in the world to exercise a variety of administrative
applications on it.
That is correct, and it has been done.
end it is going to continue to be done.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It's already understood in the language the DD/P -out
MR. BAIRD: But you have an Agency policy.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: An Agency policy but there has apparently been -
like a tax law - we have allowed so many gaps that every lawyer in the Agency
has gotten away with murder.
MR. BAIRD: I don't see why you need worry if your Agency policy is
clear enough.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'm worried about employee morale, and the fact that
I don't think any organization looks good if you have 18 offices and have 18
different interpretations of a policy.
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MR.I I The only way you are going to do that is to say
they will be paid up to a certain grade. Unless you have a strict policy you
are always going to have the same kind of differences. The General has offices
where they have to work scheduled overtime, and we have some. That little group
are going to get paid in any situation where you have any judgment here that
is allowed to the office, and only by an absolute cutting - say G5-11's and
above get no pay - then you have an Agency policy.that will be uniform.
there isn't scheduled overtime from now on into
the future. Nobody has scheduled overtime like that, do they?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That was part of my second subject, when we get
through with this. That, of course, makes a farce of ceilings, T/0's, and
everything else.
You have a 6-day week.
MR. BAIRD: There are certain things that are done overnight.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I am talking about scheduled overtime, for normal
operations. Now, your Cable Secretariat and your OCI operations where they
have a 6-day publication schedule, are what I would call exceptions.
MR. BAIRD: Our night problems are an exception.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would say there are very, very few exceptions for
ORR, unless they got an order from above. I would see very few exceptions for
OSI. I would see no exceptions for OCD. And it's across-the-board like that.
But you have to have a standard Agency policy. I still don't seeVon's point,
that with a policy laid down like this you get 18 variations.
MR Because you have every office interpreting whether
he can let this fellow go or can't let this fellow go; you have differences
where you make that interpretation.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: If we could write a regulation that eliminated
supervisory judgment then we could probably eliminate supervisors,.
GJ/\ I/"~J/"~ MR.I I You have two extremes where in the Office: of Personnel
no overtime is ever paid for GS-11 and above, and the Office of the Comptroller
where every person is paid overtime as long as it has money. Well, those are
the two extremes, as this policy permits that interpretation according to each
person's way of handling the language. Well, it is the interpretation of this
policy which has permitted the two extremes beyond which you couldn't go further
in either direction.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: I would say this, Rud, I don't think they are incon-
sistent with what I am saying - to have these two extremes. In the Office of
Personnel I cannot conceive of too many situations requiring mandatory overtime
of high level personnel. In the Office of the,Comptroller, on the other hand,
I can see situations where they have accounting crash projects and other things,
or if, as has been the case in certain areas of the Comptroller's; Office, where
the T/O's are unrealistic for the work burden. That, of course, is part of what
I have to say in my part II. I think we have some very unrealistic T/O's in
this organization, or there is somebody that has his hand awful deep in Uncle
Sam's pocket for money.
I think the regulation as it is written is appropriate.; I think if
you tie it down much tighter you are not going to help the situation. But I
would - going back to the motion, which is half across the table I would
recommend that the DD/P's statement as it is written on Attachment C, be used
as a basis for a notice. I think there are certain amplifications of this
required, but I think basically that is the interpretation that we would like
to make standard across the Agency.
MR. REYNOLDS: You have heard the Inspector General's amendment to
25X1A9A Mr. Helm's motion, is there a second?
an important part.
Could we have a part in wording the Notice? That's
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Mr.
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staff could draft the notice and
circulate it around to us.
MR. REYNOLDS: The Plans and Analysis Staff of my office will draft
a notice and circulate it to the major components for concurrence.
MR. BAIRD: Rud, can you do all of these things without taking over-
time? Your life is going to be changed.
No, not at all, because there hasn't been a week in
the last 13 years that I haven't worked overtime, and I have never been paid
for it - just to answer your remark.
MR. BAIRD: I meant your staff.
I think there ought to be an exception for the
regularly scheduled overtime, such as Cable Secretariat and the Signal Center.
MR. HELMS: You could have one paragraph cover those things.
If I had enough people in Signal Center - but
I don't have that T/O. I can live with that if nobody comes around and bothers me.
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MR. BAIRD: That is what I am afraid of in this thing. My lawyers
are smart enought to get around the regulation, and I want the regulation to
stay there because I have to get around it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Gdhere are those boys on your staff? Laughter]
MR. BAIRD: I don't know what night problems we are going to run into
in the next four months. We may change them and change them tomorrow.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But what is there about this regulation--
MR. BAIRD: As long as I am allowed to interpret it, I am satisfied
with it. I think my interpretation I can live with. But don't try to tighten
it too much.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That leads to a little dissertation I want to make
on PHASE II.
MR. HELMS: Has this action passed?
~ There's no second yet.
1R. BAIRD: I second it.
MR. REYNOLDS: It is moved and seconded. Those in favor will signify
by saying aye. Contrary minded? ;lotion carried.
Now, Phase II, Mr. Inspector General?
MR. KIRK-PATRICK: The second part of this, of course, is the obvious,
long-term implications of this business of overtime. think it's highly unreal-
istic where we have a unit that consistently runs up a high overtime bill, as
reflected in the reports the Comptroller's Office get out. And if it is a
justified overtime bill, as I am sure it is in the Cable Secretariat and other
units like that, but if it's not justified it simply means that we are operating
with too few people to do the job that is required to be done. Now I think
there is a sound management principle which indicates you may cant to operate
on this basis in certain units because: (a) you can't get more people because
they are so highly qualified; or (b) you have a fluctuating workload, But, on
the other hand, I don't think there is any justification whatsoever for consistent
overtime in units that do not have problems like that. I think overtime is
something which is taken to do a rush job in an emergency, but a'soundly organized
unit operating under good management does not run up overtime as!a regular
practice. I think that we are going to get watched an awful loth closer by the
Bureau of the Budget and the Congress on this particular subject.
I would think,
too, that the use of overtime as a device to subvert a T/O, which is a fairly
common administrative practice, is something that should be highly criticized.
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Now, Matt, I don't think you and your lawyers have a thing to worry
about where you run a night problem and have to run into overtime one week,
25X1A2G but if it was happening every week at
I'd be highly suspicious.
MR. BAIRD: It does happen every week. I am not asking for more
neonle, but it will happen every week.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Then that will fall in category 1, where you operate
more efficiently with a smaller group and you pay the overtime.
MR. BAIRD: That is what we are doing. Now, there is aiway of getting
around it - by cancelling courses for a month.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: But by going on the supervisory responsibility it
seems to me the most important thing written in this law is the fact that the
supervisors have a greater responsibility now for the supervision'of overtime,
because it is a lot more expensive proposition and a lot more people are involved.
Then it can cost the Agency a tremendous jug of cash if it's allowed to get out
of hand. I would not tolerate it on my staff because I don't think our work is
that urgent. I don't think there is anything in the type of work!that we do,
that requires overtime. I would say the same thing applies to the Management
Staff and the staffs here as supporting units and not operating units. On the
other hand, I would think there would be areas in the DD/P or DD/I where, for
crash intelligence estimates and reports, it would be justified. The same would
be true on the part of the administrative offices where they suddenly had a
tremendous support burden. But I have noted in some areas of the Agency there
are those who are sympathetic to overtime simply because some young gal has
a large family to support and wants to supplement her income. That may be
very nice from a humane point of view but not sound from a financial management
point of view. And the consequence is that I think it is the responsibility
of all members of this Council to ensure the word goes down through the ranks
and right down to the branch chief level, that this is a type of regulation
which they are going to be held accountable for.
MR. BAIRD: Kirk, did you get all the clerical positions on your T/O
that you wanted?
L4R. KIRKPATRICK: I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the 1st, 5th and 18th amendments.
MR. BAIRD: A lot of this Saturday and after hours load'is an attempt
to get the work typed.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: We do run into clerical overtime. Any staff would.
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MR. BAIRD: Pooling all of them together, we still can't do it during
the week. Our overtime went on our reports. There are a lot of deports that
.and they are
have to be made in this Agency that must be typed by a GS-4 or 5.!
doing a lot of overtime. I remember in this room when Mr. Dulles spoke about
this overtime - you have to tie this overtime problem with your ceiling problem.
It takes half an hour to write a regulation on overtime and 6 months to get
try to tighten
another clerical position over the ceiling. I just hope we don't!
this thing up-until we look at all aspects. There are some offices that have
sufficient clerical help, and others that don't.
25X1 A9A '<
time bomb and we can step on the fuse if we wish to, but I think t is desirable
for us to recognize that there is no true career service which even considers
for a moment the overtime problem. There is no regular Army officer who gets
Could I make a brief observation? This is sort of a
overtime and no Foreign Service officer who gets overtime. Those are the only
true career services as such. There is no such thing as overtime!in a true
career service because everbody is on 24 hours' duty. Overseas we interpret
our service on a 21t.-hour duty basis so that we.can take advantage!of certain
employee laws under the Bureau of Employee Compensation. But I don't see how
you can be on a 24-hour duty basis and, at the same time, draw overtime. But
that is a very tight interpretation of it and I think it would be!a long time
before we ever reached that point.
the Office of Security and Office of General Counsel have approved the procedures
It may take some time, from what has been said here.
The next item on the agenda is the report on the classi 'ication of
the application. I think you all have it here. It is all perfectly clear-
and I don't believe there is any necessity to do more than notify you that
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Until we decide to sever ourselves completely from
the Civil Service Commission and the way the Civil Service Commission runs
Federal employees, let's not worry about that aspect.
MR. REYNOLDS: Any further comments or thoughts on overtime?
We will attempt, in the Plans and Analysis Staff of the:Office of
Personnel, to get out a paper and have it concurred in by the six, major components.
The notification of acceptance.
MR. REYNOLD : It does, however, bring up the problem which Mr. Helms
discussed the other day with George Meloon on the question of the' classification
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of the application. And the final upshot of their conversation with each other
was that when an application enters the file of an individual it becomes a
classified document because our files are classified. The Execut4ve Secretary
took original exception to that on the ground that the application was an unclas-
sified document. I would like the opinion of the members of the Council as to
what they think the application is.
MR. HELMS: May I just expand a bit further on why it was that I called
Personnel about this? A couple of
took the position that they had
and otherwise, to hide the fact
individuals who work in the Clidestine Services
they
therefore, they felt that it would
scruuulous, in their social connections
associated with CIA, and that,
pretty
which they had signed applying for status
any sense to become
lists or show up in
compromised; in other
some other government
than privileged. Well, I think they have
damaging
them if j. document
Mr. Merton's suggestion on the way to handle this. Z-HGR: "Dick Helms called
Friday night about 6:30 and wanted me to allay his fears that the!Career Service
Application was an unclassified document and as such could lead to a security
breech if handled on an unclassified basis. He said he felt sure!that we had
an answer for this but it had been brought to his attention by several individuals
who questioned whether or not they should sign such a document on
basis when they were engaged in a rather sensitive operation. I
opinion that we looked upon
application forms
in the Career Service
words, that it should
agency, or in any way
a point. I was quite
that it was unclassified until filled in and then became
official personnel record Iwhich are classified "Secret."
answer he hoped to get, but felt obligated to check
same as
xpressed my
of CIA were in
get out in any
should be other
satisfied with
PHS, namely,
a part of the person's
He said this was the
with us." GFi7 There is
certainly nothing about the text of the Career Service application that couldn't
be used in recruiting or training, or any other way. But it did seem to me that
as soon as the name of an Agency member got signed to that thing it should become
a private document as far as the Agency was concerned, and, in effect, classified.
Lo putting it into a file which is classified would satisfy me that this was all
being taken care of. I know from the assurances I have been given that these
applications are very carefully handled during the period they are pending before
the Career Service boards, and so forth, and that there isn't any possibility of
compromise there; or, conversely, if anybody thinks that it would be desirable,
that when the application has been acted on it can be thereupon classified as
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far as the individual sheet of paper is concerned.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Why shouldn't it be classified the minute the name
is put on it?
MR. HELMS: 1 sent one along the other day that way.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: As soon as the name appears on it it seems to me
it's classified. I would think that would be the moment the paper becomes
classified. Then you don't have any worry about it going through the mill.
25X1A9A MR.
25X1A9A
hand-stamped. That can be done.
0
which have gone out should be
25X9A2
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Ask the people who have them in theirhands at the
moment to do that.
MR. HELiMS : It can be caught up later,
having been classified.
MR. HELsMS: As a matter of fact, I thought for a long time somebody
should go through the personnel files and stamp all of the papers in there,
because of all of the files that were filched out of OSS files by' people who
went into private pursuits. I know all kinds of derogatory statements were
actually stolen out of those files, and probably if you tried to prosecute
you would have a hell of a time, because there was nothing on the; paper which
MR. REYNOLDS: It has been moved and seconded that all application
papers when signed be classified secret. Those in favor say aye.; Contrary
minded? Motion carried.
be classified as soon as they have names on them.
MR. BAIRD: Do you want to say what classification?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Secret.
MR. HELMS: I'll second that,
said it was classified.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I move the Council approve that all applications
25X1AQA
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
look at that? Because that is a very closely related matter.
MR. REYNOLDS: That is on the last dittoed page.
I can see that no application is put in the file without
I have, on Sheff Edwards' concurrence here. Can we
Of the supplement.
MR. REYNOLDS: Dated 27 October, Subject: Notification of Membership
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MR. HELMS: As a matter of fact, when that came up I was going to
speak about the same thing I think Rud has in mind, which is 2.c.
"A personal
paper of a confidential nature" - I would assume that word "confidential" means
confidential in the personal sense rather than official sense.
25X1A9A MR.
25X1A9A
MR.I I Paragraph 2.a. refers to overt personnel.' I checked
25X9A2
25X9A2
MR. HELS: I must say in all honesty that I think it is very bad
potatoes, indeed, for one to maintain, as I do, as a matter of fact, at my house,
a file of papers which is totally unclassified but which has the Central Intel-
ligence Agency on the top of it, as these inevitably will. I never thought
about it - not that it makes any particular difference in my case; nevertheless,
it is true that if you take this thing and stick it in a file drawer at home,
you have all the evidence as to where that guy works, what he gets paid and
everything else. I don't think this is enough. I think those things should
be kept in the office.
with Sheff before the meeting, and overt personnel is another term for vouchered
funds personnel. There are about If these actions written per month and
every person on vouchered funds gets this copy. It's not classified and it has
Central Intelligence Agency on it. This is a basic personnel procedure and a
Civil Service Commission procedure which would have to be changed.to implement
your suggestion. In other words, at the root of this is the philosophy that
the employee is entitled to know what he is being paid for and is entitled to
have in his possession documentary evidence of what he is paid and what his job
classification is, and his title. And in order that he can have it in his
possession it has to be unclassified because he has no right to retain a clas-
sified document. That is the philosophy behind this procedure, which concerns
~ieces of paper a month. Now that has to do with vouchered personnel
only. Unvouchered personnel do not get a notification of personnel action.
But all vouchered personnel throughout the Agency, and throughout the DD/P as
well, and
25X1
they are the only people who get them,' but they do
get these notifications of personnel actions saying they are employees of Central
Intelligence Agency, and that is unclassified. That is the pattern which was
used in developing this Notification of Membership in the Career Staff, which
is unclassified and which was coordinated with General Counsel, Security, and
the Director's Office, to use the Director's stationery for notifying individuals
of their membership in the Career Staff.
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MR. KIRKPATRICK: Rud, you say overt personnel overseas get an overt
25X1A9A
25X1
25X1A9A
25X1A6A
notice of their connection with the Central Intelligence Agency?
personnel are on vouchered funds, even though
they're overseas.
MR. HELMS: But the issue involved here is not so much the security
of the Intelligence Agency but the safety of its personnel, and, my God, the
Russians aren't going to distinguish between some nice guy in 0" and next 25X1
thing you know he might be floating face down in a river.
is true of the 25X1
We make no effort to hide onnection with 25X1
I have just been withl ~.nd they make no effort to 25X1
u
hide their installations.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: They are safe in a U.S.-controlled territory, but
what about when they're flying from
and their plane is driven off course
and they're found in the Black Sea and get picked up by a Russian destroyer?
The interrogation may disclose the guy works
isn't one of Helms' 25X1
stinkers, but is tnat going to make any difference in the propaganda war or
when the guy gets brain-washed?
MR. HELMS: There isn't any doubt in my mind that in the years that
the Central Intelligence Agency has been in business that unfortunately the
cover for the clandestine work has now been switched around so everybody else
around here is covert and the clandestine people are not. All you have to do
is read the newspapers. The Central Intelligence Agency doesn't do a damn
thing except blow up bridges, etc. And I think those who have emblems of CIA
overseas should give a thought to doing away with it, myself.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think this goes back to when the covert services
did have some cover in CIA, which has now been blown worse than the atom bomb,
and due to the fact the whole Agency is now tarred with the same brush, I
think we better pull in our horns a bit.
MR. REYNOLDS: Isn't this a matter for the Director to 'rule upon -
an order to the AD for Personnel to classify this document that employees will
MR. HELPS: I may be slightly out of order, Mr. Chairman, but I think it's
time some thought was given to this. It's getting a little rough when 11 airmen
are getting worked over - it isn't a big step to listening to broadcasts on espionage.
have in their file and if they ask for it can be shown it.
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MR. REYNCLDS: Will the Council authorize me as the AD/P to bring
this matter to the Director's attention?
25X1A9A MR.
This is the notification. I don't see how you
7
can classify the application and not do the same thing on the notification,
because it also has the guy's name on it.
25X1A9A
How will the individuals be notified? The Regulation
calls for their being notified.
MR. HELMS: Give them the paper and they can. keep it ina file in
their safe in their offices. As a matter of fact, when you're quite up and
about it, if you stuck it in your desk drawer it's safer than in your house.
25X1 A9A
MR. I: Then this notification would be alright if classified?
MR. HELMS: That is right.
MR. REYNOLDS: It's this document that worries me and it's this one
that I need a ruling on from the Director.
25X1A9A MR.
There is one important thing we must not lose sight
of. Any new employee coming to Washington has to have credit references. The
fact that he works for CIA cannot be classified, in that sense, because he can't
open a bank account or rent a house without CIA saying, "Yes, he works for CIA."
That is a fact, and that is the basic reason for giving the individual this
copy, the Employee Copy of Civil Service Commission - Standard Form 50 (SF-50).
The fact that an individual works for CIA cannot be classified in; the sense we
are talking about in the staff study. You have to tell outside people who are
not cleared. You can't clear every credit agency, bank, etc.
MR. HELMS: Rud, I would grant you we have a ghastly problem on that
score, but I don't think we need to move that back and include everything else.
I think we should close this gap and the more we close it the better off we will be.
25X1A9A
MR.1 I I am only bringing that up so that we don't take some
precipitous action and nobody can get any financial credit.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Actually, the term "overt employees" is misused.
There are only two overt employees of CIA, Mr. Dulles and Gen.eralCabell. No
one else is overt.
MR. BAIRD: Everybody in the DD/P that is in WashingtonHeadquarters
is on vouchered funds.
MR. HELMS: When I remember the pious statements that were made at
the time all the arms were twisted to get them to go over to unvouchered funds -
there was going to be.none of this hanky-panky, and as the years have gone by
the fig leaf has been torn off and there isn't anything left.
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25X1A9A
There is a Civil Service copy in this fanfold, also.
It's this procedure which has to be very carefully scrutinized.
MR. REYNOLDS: It's a problem squarely up to the Office'!of Personnel.
We will take it up with the Director, so I don't believe we need any motion on it.
MR.. KIRKPATRICK: As well as taking that up with the Director, will
you also take up the problem of taking the signs down on CIA installations overseas2
25X1A9A
25X1A6A
We
MR. REYNOLDS :
is the only one.
25X1A6A
MR. HELMS': I could never find that one 25X1A6A
MR. BAIRD: I think this is a matter for Personnel and the Security
MR. REYNOLDS: Certainly. It's our job and we have to try to straighten
it out somehow or another, and it's going to be a difficult one. But I have your
instructions and I will so follow them as you have told me to do.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let me introduce this subject. The subject is
25X1A9A
"Legislation for Career Service", and the status of it is briefly; thus: The
Director wished to give the Clark Task Force something to chew on'in the way
of positive recommendations that they could use to help CIA. General Clark
has asked this on several occasions. So the Personnel Office, assisted by the
General Counsel, has prepared a statement that was handed to General Clark
indicating, in general, the types of career legislation that we thought would
be beneficial, pointing out that in many instances similar type legislation
was being advocated for the entire Federal career program by the President's
group which is under Mr. Young and the Task Force headed by Mr. DuFlon. A
copy of the Legislative Task Force report that the Career Council did last
year, was also handed to the Clark group.
Now, in the meantime, the Personnel Office and others have had meetings
with DuFlon and been briefed on their program that they are planning to submit
to the Bluth Congress for career benefits. At the same time, the General Counsel's
Office has been working on two alternate career service pieces of legislation.
Piece 1 would assume that the DuFlon bills go through Congress and that CIA
benefits by all of their proposals; and, consequently, only puts.in for those
types of career benefits which are peculiar unto CIA. Piece 2 goes for the
works, assuming that none of the I}uFlon legislation will get through.
25X1A6A
did have one.
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Now, Harry, correct me if I am in error, but it is my understanding
that DuFlon has agreed that as long as we do not go contrary-wise,; in basic
principle, to any of the proposals he is advocating, and keep him advised of
our activities on the Hill, that we have pretty much of a free hand.
MR. REYNOLDS: That is correct. 25X1A9A
lation, come over this afternoon and just run over, very briefly,the major items
which we are going for, only one of which appears to be at all controversial, and
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And I thought it important that Mr. of the
General Counsel's Office, who is actually working on the drafting of this legis-
that one is the business of accelerated retirement. The DuFlon gxoup, generally,
is opposed to that. But it seems to me, in discussion with both Harry and Jack
that we have a peculiar problem for accelerated retirement, a problem
25X1A9A
peculiar primarily in the Clandestine Services where a senior operator may be
so blown at the end of 20 years that to be able to retire him and.iopen up a slot
for somebody coming up would be a valuable alternative for the Di'ector to have
in addition to the increased financial benefits people would get for hazardous'
duty at hardship posts, etc.
Well, picking up the recommendations for the legislative
25X1A9A
program - ones of a year ago - I want to go over them very briefly and see to
what extent you think we ought to change them now.
The first recommendation was for medical benefits. Now there is an
Administration bill - the DuFlon Bill - which goes further than the recommendation
of the Career Council in that the DuFlon proposal is to give the same medical
benefits to dependents as would be given to employees. Whether that will get
through in that way or not, you can't tell, because that is going pretty far.
It would seem to me it would be very unfortunate for CIA to put in a CIA bill
a proposal that didn't go as far as another bill that was passed for the rest
of government. So that is a little trickly, but I would think what we want
to do in our bill would be to go as far as any Administration bili that was in
existence went.
MR. By "medical benefits" - does that include travel?
{ MR. Including medical travel.
There is a limit on the benefits - that is the hospitalization for
chronic illnesses, those of 60 or 90 days - I've forgotten.
25X1A9A MR.
This DuFlon bill isn't what was referred toas the omnibus
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25X1A9A MR.I No. At least, I have three which you might call
the DuFlon bills. Here is one which is the medical benefits, and this one
is the Uniform Allowances Act of 1955. This is the little amendment to the
25X1A9A
Well, the Bureau of the Budget called today and said
that they had an understanding with our General Counsel that we were not
going to proceed-with legislation on our own because there was an!omnibus bill.
pending, but that there was not now going to be an omnibus bill, and that
State Department was going right along with their own legislation' and that we
could do as we pleased but they were advising us this was the situation. And
I have not yet been able to communicate that to General Counsel. ;Does that
conflict in any way?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That doesn't conflict .but proves our principle of
wisdom in going ahead on our own. I know these bills are going to start falling
by the board because it is inconsistent with the Administration cutting down
on expenditures.
25X1A9A . . . Mr. Helms was called from the meeting . . .
MR. Then I think everybody here is agreed we. should seek
the broad medical benefits.
The next item that was in the old legislative program was the death
gratuity of $1000. Now my understanding is that it has been decided not to go
for that, but there is nothing in writing or any formal recommendation. One
reason frequently advanced why we shouldn't go for it now is that. there is
Eisenhower insurance, and that that insurance to some extent makes the death
gratuity unnecessary. Gentlemen, have you any views on that?
MR. IIRKPATRICK: I am sort of interested as to why we are not going
25X1A9A for it.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
MR. Does any other group have it?
MR All of the Armed Forces.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: At the suggestion of John Warner, we dropped it.
John was, again, expressing a personal view, Mr. Reynolds,
and in discussing it both Kirk and I wondered if anybody decided this point.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: My point, and one of the reascns I suggested to you
that Jack be invited over this afternoon, is that after the amount of blood,
sweat and tears the Legislative Task Force put into this, I would be most reluctant
to see items that were agreed to after great discussion, just drooped without
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I think that's a strong point.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There are two different things. The point of a
death gratuity is to enable the family to take care, immediately., !,of those
-problems incident to death - the funeral, getting the body home, 3f necessary,
and meeting the necessary bills. And the insurance, like most others, is probably
going to be delayed.
MR. BAIRD: And you foresee no delay in death gratuity?
25X1A9A MR. KIRKPTARICK: That would be automatic.
MR. You would have to have proof of deatI and all of
those things before any government agency is going to pay off, unless we pay
25X1A9A
MR We would pay.it ourselves. That is what the legislation
would permit us to do.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You are talking about the death gratuity and Von is
talking about the insurance.
25X1A9A
I
later, whereas the insurance is not within our hands to pay it ten minutes later.
. . Mr. Helms returned to the meeting . . .
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Dick, we are talking about death gratuity, which,
without being ma.caberous, is more pertinent to your part of the house rather
than any other part of the Agency. Apparently one of the General Counsel's
staff members feels that with the new Eisenhower insurance it isn't necessary.
MR. HELMS: The new Eisenhower insurance being?
25X1A9A
II
MR. REYNOLDS: Federal Employees Group Life Insurance.
25X1A9A
MR. It certainly isn't the position of the Office of General
Counsel this should be dropped. Various people, not only in the Office of General
Counsel, have said that now that we have Eisenhower insurance we don't need the
death gratuity.
MR. HELMS: I frankly don't think they are related, myself.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Is there any reason wly any more people would have
the Eisenhower insurance than they had before?
MR. BAIRD: It seems to me the thing is pertinent if you could write
the bill so you could pay from station funds, which is the purpose of it.
If in the bill that is passed it is as difficult to pay the X1000; from the
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point of view of time, as to get the insurance, I see no particular value to it.
$1000. So the death gratuity is in, then, is that correct?
The next point is the education allowance, and there the only thing
that would interest you, gentlemen, is that in the Overseas Allowance Act of
1955 there is a proposal to make that education allowance across-the-board
for all government employees.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
That, also, is in the Administration bill.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: We will have to go after that on our own, though,
because if what Bob says about that omnibus bill is true, State will be going
_ -after that, too.
MR.
I think we could write it so the Agency could pay the
Is this a part of the White House program?
Yes. There is likewise the statutory home leave benefits.
That tie& in with what Bob is saying. The omnibus
bill is used in two senses. At one point there was a proposal tohave all of
the departments that had a large section of their employees overseas, have it
covered in one bill, and have FOA, CIA, Foreign Service, etc., all covered.
Now when the man who talked to you referred to the omnibus bill that is what
he was referring to.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
But you still want to go ahead?
MR Oh, sure.
The next point is the Missing Persons legislation. Again, that is
somewhat in the same position as the death gratuity. Various people
have suggested
that you shouldn't try for that. Again, there has been no formal decision, that
I know of.
25X1A9A
That is absolutely essential to CIA.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Defense has got it in.
25X1A9A
MR. But it's only approved for a year.
MR It's approved until July of 1955 and then we will go
through the same thing. If we want to ride on the coat tails of Defense, that
is one problem.
25X1A9A
MR.
The Legislative Task Force and the Council approved
that we should try to get permanent missing persons legislation instead of this
hand-to-mouth, year-by-year, sort of thing., where it's likely to go out and
somebody will get badly hurt by reason of the legislation just haying lapsed
and no Congress in session.
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That Task Force put an awful lot of time on
these things and as far as I know none of this has been reconsidered as thoroughly
as it was then. I don't think we can sit down and decide these things in five
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't think we want to change any of it, frankly.
MR. REYNOLDS: It would appear to me to be in order for'this Council
to reaffirm the former action of the Task Force and request that legislation
be prepared on those things that are not in the DuFlon bill. It Yas been moved
and seconded. Contrary minded? Motion carried.
25X1A9A 1 MR I don't want to prolong this but there is one thing
on the retirement that Kirk mentioned. We don't know what the Administration
bill on retirement is going to be. It is in the mill, and DuFlon the last
time he was here, I think he said he thought it would be 40 or 90days before
that came out. So we won't be able to do too much on that. Any retirement
that we go after for CIA will have to take into consideration, to:some extent,
what the rest of the government is trying to get. ':.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: Let's get DuFlon over and find out what they are
trying to get.
42
MR. REYNOLDS: I haven't heard anything on the Cabinet meeting the
other day.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: He didn't mention career legislation. He talked
about foreign economic policy.
MR. REYNOLDS: Do you think we can get some report on that Cabinet
meeting?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I'll see if I can get something at the morning
staff meeting.
25X1A9A
MR. REYNOLDS: Jack, do you have anything more?
MR That is all that I have. Thank you very much.
MR. REYNOLDS: Any further business to come before this Council meeting?
If not, it stands adjourned until another call of a member - until next year.
. . . The meeting adjourned at 5:10 p.m. . . .
Approved For Release 200 01/2'3_CIA-RDP80-01826R000700030010-5
AIL.