CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01601R001300370002-9
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: December 14, 2000
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: November 23, 1971
• Content Type: OPEN

Approvedk For Release 2001/03/04: CIA-RDP80-01601R001300370002-9
November 23, 1971 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE S 19521
r. DOMINICK. I ask for the yeas and Several Senators addressed the Chair. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. objection, it is so ordered.
GRAVEL) . The Chair recognizes the Sen-
ator from Missouri.
Mr. MANSVIELD. Mr., President, will
the Senator yield?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I yield to the Sen-
ator from Montana.
, nay
? The RESIDING OFFICER. Is there
' a suffic nt second? There is a sufficient
, second.
The ye and nays were ordered.
! The PR ? MING OFFICER. The ques-
tion is on a eeing to the amendment as
modified of e Senator from Colorado.
The yeas a a nays have been ordered,
and the clerk 11 call the roll.
. The legislati clerk called the roll.
Mr. BYRD o West Virginia. I an-
nounce that the? enator from Indiana
I (Mr. HARTKE) , the enator from South
-0: Dakota (Mr. McGo aN), and the Sen-
ator from Maine (Mr. usicie) are nec-
ersarily absent.
? I further announce t t the Senator
from Idaho (Mr. CHURCH is absent on
? official business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I announ that the
Senator from Maryland (Mr. ALL), the
Senator from New Hampsh (Mr.
OtrrToN), the Senator from Ne York
(Mr. JAvrrs), and the Senator rom
? Maine (Mrs. SMITH) are necess 1y
absent.
The Senator from South Dakota (
MUNDT) is absent because of illness.
The Senator from Illinois (Mr. PERCY)
is detained on official business.
The Senator from Ohio (Mr. SAXBE) is
,
absent on official business.
If present and voting, the Senator from
fi Illinois (Mr. PERCY) and the Senator
from Maine (Mrs. SMITH) would each
, vote "nay."
The result was annoUnced-L-yeas 59,
, nays 30, as follows:
. [No. 393 Leg,'
YEAS-59
Aiken Fannin Nelson .
Alien Fong Packwood"
Allott Gambrell Pearson
Baker Goldwater Pell
Bayh Griffin Ribicoff
Bennett Gurney Schweiker
)3entsen Hansen Scott
Bible Hollings Sparkman
Boggs Hruska Spong
Brock Hughes Stafford
Brooke Humphrey Stevens
Buckley Inouye Stevenson
Case Jackson Taft
Cook Jordan, Idaho ? Talmadge
Cooper Kennedy , Thurmond
1 Cranston Magnuson Tower ;
CurtiS Mathias Tunney
Dole McGee Weicker
. Dominick McIntyre ' Williams
Ervin Miller .
NAYS-30
' Anderson Fulbright Mondale
Bellmon Gravel Montoya
Burdick Harris Moss
/Byrd, Va. Hart Pastore
I 1 Byrd, W. Va. Hatfield Proxmire
' Cannon Jordan, N.C. Randolph
Chiles Long Roth
Eagleton Mansfield Stennis
Eastland McClellan Symington
Ellender Metcalf Young
NOT VOTING-11
Beall Javits PercY '
Church McGovern Saxbe
Cotton Mundt Smith
Hartke Muskie
rEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
APPROPRIATIONS, 1972
The Senate resumed the consideration
of the bill (HR. 11731) making appro-
priations for the Department of Defense
for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1972,
EXECUTIVE SESSION and for other purposes.
Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, I ask Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, may
unanimous consent that the Senate go We have order?
into executive session, to consider cer- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The
tan nominations at the desk. Senate will be in order. Senators will take
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without their seats, and attaches will leave the
objection, it is so ordered. Chamber.
INTELLIGENCE?THE GREAT WASTE IN
-----corrrnmer
Mr. SYMINGT-O-V?Mr. President, a
premise to these observations, and the
amendment which I thereupon plan to
offer to this military appropriation bill,
isizass,d on a _belief that-the SenataiLas
moral intarestra in the ouastion of the
overall structure and functioninur
ence apparatus as is the House of
Representatives.
in' eits:SIDING OFFICER. Will the
Senator send his amendment to the desk,
so that it may be reported?
Mr. SYMINGTON. The amendment is
,at the desk.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The
amendment will be stated.
The assistant legislative clerk read as
follows: .
On page 49, between lines 2 and 3, insert
the following:
SEC. 743. None a the funds appropriated
In this Act in excess of $4,000,000,000 may be
available for expenses by the Central Intel-
ligence Agency, the National Security Agency,
and the Defense Intelligence Agency, and for
intelligence work performed by or on behalf
of the Army, Navy, and the Air Force.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, one
notes that earlier this month, in its re-
port to the House, the House Committee
on Appro riations made the following
serva ons; and inasmuch as those ob-
servations confirm both our own think-
ing and our findings over recent years, I
will read them into the RECORD at this
point:
The Committee feels that the intelligence
operations of the Department of Defense
have grown beyond the actual needs of the
Department and are now receiving an inor-
inate share of the fiscal resources of the
epartment.
Redundancy is the watchword in many in-
elligence operations. The same information
s sought and obtained by various means' and
y various organizations.
Coordination is less effective than it should
e.
Far more material is collected than is es-
sential.
Material is collected which cannot be eval-
uated in a reasonable length of time and is
herefore wasted.
New intelligence means have become avail-
ble and have been incorporated Into the
I am sure that Judge Allen will
program without offsetting reductions in old
? 1 his
So Mr. DommicH's amendment, asprocedures.
important office with great abMt and
modified, was agreed to. honor. As noted in this House report, their
Mr. DOMINICK. Mr. President, I move conclusions were based on extensive
to reconsider the vote by which the? hearings?let us note also that last year
amendment was agreed to. ? LEGISLATIVE SESSION this Ho e troi ? ??: ? - 011111Miliam e
LDwAppraved Rel ease. 2001103#041t? MAEIR LT:rui :f.43 , Fe 4 1.,:ren n ? " ? the
Mr. GtO
motion on the tanle. unanimous consent tnat tne bena e r eepar m- o ,
The motion to lay on the table was turn to the consideration of legislatio wine procesings were included in th
agreed to. bus1nes publio r0.22.S.d.
U.S.? COURTS
The assistant legislative clerk read the
following nominations, which were fa-
vorably reported earlier today by the
Committee on the Judiciary:
James S. Holden, of Vermont, to be a
U.S. district judge for the district of
Vermont.
Ralph V. Scalera, of Pennsylvania, to
be a U.S. district judge for the western
district of Pennsylvania.
Clarence C. Newcomer, of Pennsyl-
nia, to be a U.S. district judge for the
e tern district of Pennsylvania.
arles M. Allen, of Kentucky, to be
a S. district judge for the western
dist t of Kentucky.
Alf d T. Goodwin, of Oregon, to be
a U.S. rcuit judge for the ninth circuit.
Levin Campbell, of Massachusetts,
to be a S. district Judge for the dis-
trict of achusetts.
Mr. M FIELD. Mr. President, I ask
unanimous consent that the nomina-
tions be con dered en bloc.
The PRES SING OFFICER. Without
objection, the nominations are consid-
ered and con med en bloc.
Mr. MANSF LD. Mr. President, I ask
that the Preside t be immediately noti-
fied of the confi ation of these nom-
inations.
The PRESIDIN e OFFICER. Without
objection, it is so ? dered.
Mr. COOPER. President, I am
very glad that the ? ate has confirmed
this evening Judge C arles M. Allen of
Louisville, Ky., to b a U.S. district
judge for the western 'istrict of Ken-
tucky.
The nomination of J dge Allen by
President Nixon has rece ved wide ap-
proval in Kentucky. By rea on of educa-
tion, experience as a prac cing lawyer
and as an elected circuit ? urt judge,
a court of general jurisdic on in the
Commonwealth of Kentucky, dge Allen
has superior qualifications. He s a man
of fine and respected family ba ground,
of the highest integrity, and he i held in
high regard by the bar, his co eagues
of the judiciary and by the pe pie a
? Louisville and Jefferson County.
s 195APProved For Rele ae8Raftt4N4AelciAditaeao-ateniRo oI 30037000M 3 1
and later that day?Saturday?a mem-
ber of that organiza,tiorir delivered the
White House press release to my home,
stating.that the press release was all_the
Agency knew about -it- af the.-time.
It is clear to anyone familiar with the
executive branch that this reorganiza-
tion: First, could be turning over the
intelligence operation to the military?
exactly what the National Defense Act
of 1947 took careful steps to prevent?
and second, places policy control of intel-
ligence in a new committee in the White
House, headed by the Assistant to the
President for National Security Affairs,'
Mr. Kissinger, on this committee sit
both the Attorney General and the
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as
well as the Deputy Secretaries of State
and Defense.
This gives Executive privilege to the
final policymakers, and therefore, except
for the power of the purse, enables said
policymakers to, in effect, ake the entire
question of intelligence out of the hands
of Congress.
The fact that I do not think such a
development is right or proper, Mr.
President, is the basic thrust of the
amendment that I am offering this eve-
ning.
I thereupon made a short talk on the
floor of the Senate delineating this ex-
traordinary development, and protesting
that such a major change incident to
our overall security should not be made
without the knowledge let alone the ap-
proval, of anybody in the Senate; and I
ask unanimous consent that this talk be '
inserted at the end of these remarks.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without
objection, it is so ordered.
(See exhibit 1.)
Mr. SYMINGTON. The Chairman of
the newly formed White House Intel-
ligence Committee, Dr. Kissinger, there-
upon called me and said I was right, that
the change should have been discussed
with the proper committees of Congress,
that the reorganization details had been
handled by Mr. George Shultz, and that
e, Kissinger, would arrange for Mr.
hultz to come down and talk to me
During these hearings, the then As-
sistant Secretary of Defense, now Secre-
tary of the Army, Secretary Froehlke,
who had been directed by the Secretary
of Defense to review the intelligence pro-
grams, also testified that he was sur-
prised to find that there wps no Pamrtre-
hensi 'nvento of DOD intelligence
assets. He thereupon s a ed a he
concurred with the committee's expressed
? concern about duplication in the intelli-
gence cOmmunity.
In addition, this report states that
the committee expects to review the in-
telligence program In total during the
hearings on the fiscal year 1973 budget
request.
rts
aluiter_esto&Senate committee's. we cart
find no comparable interest on their part
with respect to the billions appropriated
annually for intelligence.
Back in 1966, as a member of both the
CIA Subcommittee of the Senate Armed
Services Committee -and also the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee, I became
concerned that, because of their lack of
knowledge of certain 'intelligence mat-
ters bearing on foreign policy, members
of the Foreign Relations Committee were
not in a position to make intelligent
judgment of certain U.S. policies over-
seas. Accordingly, I presented this situ-
ation as I saw it to the then chairman of
Armed Services, the late Senator Russell.
t the be innin of t ess,
in Januar 196 Chairman Russell In-
vi e. ree members o ic s i Re-
lations CommittEe?t_n_eitrith_tha CIA
SubconurnEreeilmed Services, which
committee also included members of the
Senate Appropriations Committee. This
arrangement presumably continues, but _
the members of the Foreign Relations
Committee participate as a matter of
grace, not of right. I say presumably be-
cause in any case said CIA Subcommittee
has not mef-ca-------this year, ana troth
what I understand does nor-plan to meet.
Darrkiltuanarkun_lastazeekpf military
appropriations by the Senate Defense
ApproprWions anagonmittee. . then-
ton wig Made .2Ltb_e_mjag4illion dol- ton on the grounds the President felt
lar appropriation _requests contained in this way, or felt that way. Now let me about it.
this bill for-in--6-grorthe some Trififelli- repeat how the President feels about this I thanked him for his call, but said I
gence operating or/and adviso roups matter, according to this article: - felt any such a briefing should be given
in the executive-branc of this overn- President Nixon's "major complaints are to the committees, not to an individual
ment. faulty nitenipmace, runaway budgets and a Member. That is the last I have heard of
As an ex officio member of Appropria- disparity between a glut of facts and
tor, was told by a staff member?who
obviously does know abotit it?that he
could not tell the Senator even the
amount or anything else about this,
seems to me a shocking and unprece-
dented situation. I have never heard of
this before, except from the executive
branch. I have never heard of a member
of a Senate staff telling a Senator that
he could not tell him what he knew about
the relevant business of any committee.
? Mr. SYMINGTON. I thank the Sena-
tor for his contribution.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Does the Senator
know of any precedent for this?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I do not.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Did the Senator
ever have this experience before?
Mr. SYMINGTON. No; I did not.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. That is what I
mean. This is the only time I have ever
heard of it.
Mr. SYMINGTON. This means that
these billions of dollars of the taxpayer's'
money are being authorized and appro-
priated by the Senate with the knowledge
and approval of just five of its Members.
a result of tbair.,3,7,Koar_inie_sliga-
tion-1969-71?of our worldwide trea-
ties and commitment, both staff ta
ems
of the Senate Subcommifte-
ciTire-eTher-Ws?C?ind Commilments
AbToad of the Foreign Relatione ram_
mittee found heavy duplication?there-
fore, waste?of the taxpayers' money, in
the ir_ritsatgenee.fielT;?and, perhaps even
more important, they found many con-
ditions which were not known by those
on the Senate committees designated to
review our military and political policies
arid position with other countries.
The cover story in a recent issue of
Newsweek magazine confirms this confu-
s and waste, and details general dis-
satisfaction with much of it. The arti-
cle states that President Nixon's "rriajor
complaints are faulty intelligence, run-
away budgets, and a disparity between
a glut of facts and a poverty of anal-
ysis." .
Mr. President, several times today on
the floor, people have justified their posi-
tions because of being the ranking mem_ poverty or analysis.
ber of the Armed Services Committee, This article also asserts:
after the subcommittee meeting LgAllgii. Bureaucracy has transformed what began n
the staff olAppropriations to ask in gen- as an amateurish happy few into a sprawling -
made?namely, that the present setup
SI ? a- intelligence conglomerate encompassing more
tions_?.. tide went on:
to shape intelligence estimates.!' The ar-
? but I was told that, except for the than a dozen government agencies, 200,000 gives "the military considerable power
ffe-senioThembers et tile Senate Ay- employees and a budget of some se billion a
ir_
pi=717firg-Cbmmittee, they had n year.
ins r____Luele Whenever you're working on a problem
- As one Member of the Senate, despite
billion dollar intelligence appropriations, my committee assignments I do not that the military is deeply interested in?be-
billion it's affecting one of their programs,
even to the other members of the Ap- know whether those figures are accurate or their war in Vietnam, or something?and
p r o._,Iic(Tg3rCn9-6n iiiIrt e _ or inaccurate, too large or too small, you're not saying what they want you to say,
President, will E n .
rliAr ti
lts month, the news media the browbeating starts: the delaying tactics, .
the Senator yield for a question? began calling n_._le._..D7.1ng.___W;zelit a the pressure to get the report to read more
like they want it to read, in other words. In-
? That is such a shocking statement that major reorganiza on in the intelligence
, I thought some attention should be field that had just been announced by fluencing intelligence for the benefit of their
? called to it. ??this Government. I told them the truth? own operation or activity.
Mr. SYMINGTON. lam glad to yield that I knew nothin abouT A former member of the CIA establish-
to the able Senator. ?The press carr e a story about this ment, in a reply to these statements pub-
Mr FULBRIGHT The statement the?
aation the next morning,I there- lished in the same issue of that magazine,
In a recent article in the U.S. News 8,z
.World Report, - ritt,en by the former Ex-
ecutive Assistan ctor
a very serious charge was
S I 9 aurnimimmatea. ? - I.
Bondi:ppm:wed, kier Reitesaera20 Ofe4 t:h0M-ROFIEFOt-Obf8bli 0 0 an o o 2-9
k
AFfs roved For ReggleRiRla1d0T3A.04RiegA-31/PAR1401 R001 30037000219523
November , 1971
In both the Senate and the House there are
subcommittees of both Appropriations and
Armed Services. In the Senate, members of
the Foreign Relations Committee are invited
to join briefings of the other subcommittees.
And then states: I
.,
'I submit that there is no federal agency of
our government whose activities receive
closer scrutiny and "control" than the CIA.
Based on the facts presented above, the
reverse of that statement is true in my
opinion, and it is shameful for the Amer-
ican people to be so misled. There is no
Federal agency of our Government whose
activities receive less scrutiny and control
than the CIA; and the same is true of
, ther intelligence agencies of the govern-
t.
ent who reportedly receive billions of
dollars more each year than, does the CIA.
I have the greatest respect for the five
members of the Senate Appropriations
Committee who alone of all Senators
know the detail 8 of this multibillion-dol-
lar authorization and appropriation. But
I do not believe that they, and they alone,
should render final decision on both said
authorizations and appropriations with-
out the knowledge, let alone the approval,
of any other Senators, including those on
the Armed Services Committee ,who are
not on this five-member Subcommittee of
Appropriations, and all members of the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
The latter committees have fully as
much interest in our military and polit-
ical activities in foreign lands as do mem-
bers of this Appropriations Subcommit-
tee; in fact, the heads of the CIA in for-
eign countries operate under the super-
vision of the Ambassador; and those Am-
bassadors report to the Secretary of
State.
As a matter of fact, and as anybody
knows who has traveled around in these
foreign countries where we are at war or
In what might be called partial peace, the
heads of the CIA in these countries oper-
ate under the direct supervision of the
ambassador, and those ambassadors re--
port to the Secretary of State.
Today we all know this Nation faces
serious fiscal and monetary problems.
Our economy is in grave trouble and one
of the chief reasons for this condition
has to do with our vast military expendi-
tures at home and abroad. ,
With that premise, apprehension about
this situation can only be increased by
the fact the reorganization announced
earlier this month by the White House
in turn increases the influence of the
military in le 01 u a on o in e i-
gence_estilhati. in
the DefenseThEpartment when the NA-
Trollai 6ecurity Act of 194'7 assed?
frific mom ore e passage of that
bill foiT-Secretary Patterson?and-Th-Ea-
rire-know-this is-met/rWriat rreside
71-TilifiEifil-riChTS advisers, for the obvious
realons,-altempted to avoid.
-Tfle--7ordirivg-ETC-thself ,makes
th poinK raSlaiiranim-ous consent that
this wording be printed in the RECORD
at the conclusion of my remarks.
The PRESIDING OrViCER (Mr.
SPONG). Without objection, it is so or-
dered.
(See exhibit 2.)
this arialy7retft7friarPtintill
Mr. SY M.
?
?
_eft en unneesssamslollar_s_
will be added to the clefense budget be-
cal"?TsTiffirtbudgelbthasedanIntelligenee
I ati-rxiiites of the plans, program& and
production of the possible enemy; and
have been higher than these of the
civilians.
anowledge?intelligence--about the
plans and programs of the possible
enemy is generally considered to, be at
least as important as ahy other factor
in the formulation of the defense budget.
As but one example of that importance,
there follows a colloquy between the dis-
tinguished present chairman of the Sen-
ate Appropriations Committee and
former Secretary of Defense McNamara,
during the defense appropriations hear-
ings of 1967:
Senator ELLENDER. What part does the State
Department take in 'making decisions that
have resulted in the programs you are pre-
senting to us now?
Secretary MCNAMARA. That State Depart-
ment is informed of, but does not affect my
recommendations as to what ought to be
done.
Senator ELLENDER. Are your recommenda-
tions 'founded solely on what you get from
the JCS?
Secretary No, sir; they are not.
The JCS are, of course, the principal military
advisers to the President bylaw, and of much
more importance they are actually his mili-
tary advisers because of their experience. But
the national intenate_s are faken
in ? ? hen as well
as.? ler information.
Again, in that this year the CIA Sub-
committee of the Armed Services Com-
mittee has not met once, it would appear
there is now even more secrecy in the
handling of intelligence funds;? and this
at a time when there is a steadily rising
chorus among the people of this country
for less secrecy.
Apparently some people believe that
the very word "intelligence," in itself,
requires that all these, billions should
only be authorized and appropriated in
such great secrecy.
To me, this does not wash. We author-
' ize and appropriate, through the proper
congressional committees, tens of bil-
lions of dollars annually for the other
, component parts of the military.
There is nothing secret, foi? example,
about the constantly referred to cost of
a nuclear aircraft carrier, or the cost of
the C-5A, or the cost of the main battle
tank; but knowledge of these costs does
not mean that either the Congress or
the American public have been informed,
in case of a war, how, along with our
military personnel, it is planned to utilize
these weapons. That would be getting
into war plans, something which should
be studiously avoided.
B the
overa* cost_gL ntememire does not- in
any7way entail the ? so -.te
a., I' w e various intellioups
funclion, or plan W112Petlen
7EFS1-70-urd'There be greater danger to
national security in making public overall
intelligence costs than in making public
other overall security costs?
( I am certain in my own mind that we
'171r---:f" 1
?41101-'
II 4
killed?if pressures, combined_with_un-
waid-Serfeeid not been, chara,ez
teristic of our_intelligence knowledge and
aetiVities -an -that -country- because our
political and military actions were ap-
proved by the Congress on the basis of
misinformation and a lack of informa-
tion.
In summary, 'therefore, I do not be-
lieve the Senate can meet its responsibili-
ties, or exercise its "constitutional pre-
rogative" if this bill is approved under
these circumstances; therefore, I offer
this amendment which has been read at
the desk and which provides that the
Senate impose a ceiling on the amount of
funds in this bill that can be expended
for intelligence activities during the fiscal
year in question.
Responsible news media continue to
assert to the American people that the
cost of intelligence to the American tax-
payer now runs to between $5 billion and
$6 billion. I do not believe that figure is
necessarily correct, but if it is correct, it
but confirms the many informed reports
we have had about duplication and waste.
I now ask for the yeas and nays.
The yeas and nays were ordered.
EXHIBIT 1
CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT OF INTELLIGENCE
ACTIVITIES
(statement by Senator Stuart Symington)
Last Friday the White House announced
that the President had ordered a reorganiza-
tion of the intelligence community. I ask
unanimous consent that their press release
to this end be placed in the Record at the
conclusion of these remarks,
As renorted by the press, the Administra-
tion's plan creates an "enhanced leadership
role" for the Director of the Central Intelli-
gence Agency, turns more of the operating
responsibility for that Agency over to the
Deputy Director, and creates or reconstitutes
a variety of boards, comtnittees and groups
who are charged with important responsi-
bilities within the intelligence community.
The reported aim of the reorganization is
to improve the "efficiency and effectiveness"
of United States intelligence activities; and
nress comments on this move incleide ref-
erences to alleged concern over the size and
cost of intelligence operations; also to gen-
eral unhappiness about various specific in-
telligence estimates. Such reports have been
officially denied, but it is acknowledged that
this reorganization is the result of "an ex-
haustive study" of the United States intel-
ligence activities.
It could be that the reorganization an-
nounced last week by the White House is a
constructive move. In recent years there
has been a growing belief that there was
heavy dunlication and therefore waste
within the overall intelligence community.
Unfortunately, however, it has been imnos-
siple for the public, or even concerned
members of Congress, to obtain enough
information on this subject for informed
judgment. ?
By the same token, it is equally impos-
sible to determine, at least at this time,
whether the organization changes now de-
creed will accomplish their stated purposes,
or to determine what will be their prac-
tical effect.
One thing is clear, based on the manner
in which the reorganization was handled
and announced; namely, the Executive
Branch does not consider either the orga-
nization, or the operation, of the intelli-
gence community to be matters of concern
iteMialdita=fatwiheith vitt:
Approved For Release 200.1/03/04 ? ciA,Rogoim,F00130WQM219 23, 1971
S 19524 CONGREssioN AL -Kai)
Congress regarding this reorganization, or That at no time shall the two positions of
even any advance notice of what had been the Director and Deputy Director be occupied
decided. simultanecrusly by commissioned officers of
In 1917 the Central Intelligence Agency, the armed services, whether in an active or
was established by act of Congress. Its powers retired status.
and duties are specified by law. Its Director
Mr. GOLDWATER. Mr. President, if
and Deputy Director are subject to con-
firmation by the Senate. the Senator from Missouri will yield I do
Last year the Congress appropriated an not have a copy of the Senator's amend-
amount estimated by the press to be be- melt but I made a note as it was read,
tween five and six billion dollars for the It states:
activities of this agency and the other corn- The Central Intelligence Agency, the Na-
ponent parts of the intelligence community. tional Security Agency, and the Defense In-
As one member of the Senate, I will not telligence Agency, and for intelligence work
accept the proposition that the Congress' performed by or on behalf of the Army, Navy,
role in organizing the intelligence commu- and the Air Force.
nity ended twenty-four years ago with the
passage of the National Security Act, or . Now would the Senator break that
that our only current and continuing respon- down into, say, the intelligence that is
ability is to appropriate whatever number acquired by a photorecon flight, one, or
of billions of dollars the Executive Branch the intelligence
requests so as to handle this work. ? Mr. SYMINGTON. May I ask the Sen-
Last Saturday, when: I learned from the .,
s
press about this intelligence reorganization, ator if he is peaking on my time or on
as ranking member of the Senate Armed the time of the opposition?
Services Committee I wrote the Chairman Mr. GOLDWATER. I am not sure that
of that Committee, requesting hearings either I oppose it. I want merely to find out how
by the full Committee or by the CIA Sub- deep the Senator wants to go.
committee, of which I have been a member Mr. ELLENDER. I yield 5 minutes to
for some fifteen years. In that letter I pre- the Senator from Arizona.
sented the fact that this Subcommittee has The PRESIDING OrrICER. The Sen-
not met once this year.
This latest reorganization on the face of ator from Arizona is recognized for 5
it raises questions about past, present and 'minutes
future performance of our multi-billion dol-
lar annually intelligence community; ques-
tions such as
If it has been inefficient, what and where
were its deficiencies?
In what sense does it need to be more
"responsive?"
What is implied about the past by the
reference in the press release to the objec-
tive of insuring "strengthened leadership"
in the future?
The White House announcement offers gence we are discussing here and some
neither answers to these questions, nor ex- ,f which applies to intelligence needed
planations of the remedies which have now of
been unilaterally decreed. to Conduct a battle. But the thing that
In order to understand properly said action disturbs me is, is there any way to alio-
by the Executive Branch, Congress should cate Or to determine the cost of that kind
know the answers to such questions as the Of intelligence?
following: Mr. SYMINGTON. I say to the Sena-
How is the leadership role of the Director tor I do not know. No doubt millions of
of the Central Intelligence Agency "en- Americans have seen the chart in News-
hanced" by the creation of a new and obvi-
ously more powerful supervisory committee week magazine, however, a chart called
chaired by the Advisor to the President for , "The United States Intelligence C0111-
National Security Affairs, on which new munity." It does not give figures for that
Board not only sits the Attorney General agency which, to the best of my knowl-
but also the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs edge, spent by far the most money, but
of Stall? it does say in the chart that the Army
Has this new White House committee been has 38,500 intelligence staffers and a
given authority or/and responsibility which
heretofore was the responsibility of the budget of $775 million; that the Navy
CIA; and Whieil the Congress, under the NS- has 10,000, It does. not give the Navy
Menai Security Act, vested in the Agency? money; that the Air Force has 00,000
How can the integrity of the intelligence staffers with a budget of $2.8 billion. It
roduct be assured when responsibility for says the Central Intelligence's budget is
Mr. GOLDWATER. I thank the Sena-
tor from Louisiana for yielding me this
time.
What disturbs me, as the Senator
knows as well as anyone else in this
Chamber, the Army and Navy, the Air
Force and the Marine Corns are always,
constantly, engaged in obtaining battle-
field intelligence and information, some
of which applies to the kind of intelli-
the very elementary type of intelligence-
gathering that involves a patrol sent out
for intelligence purposes?
Mr. SYMINGTON. The figure I state
In the amendment is too high, according
to some?$4 billion.
Mr. GOLDWATER. I am not arguing
with the Senator about that. I am in-
clined to agree with him, but I think
the amendment would be better?and
better understood?if we did net get down
to the nitty-gritty of 1 and 1 is 2, at
the sergeant or the private level, who
Is sent out to undertake a photo recon-
flight.
I am speaking here to their problems
and their costs. The question I had is:
How far down the hole do we go before
we stop?
Mr. SYMINGTON. Let me answer my
able friend in this way. We had staff men
go in certain areas of the world and they
found great duplication. They found the
Intelligence units of the CIA, the De-
partment of Defense, the Army, the
Navy, and the Air Force all directed
to particular intelligence, tremendous
duplication, therefore waste.
If it is clarification that the able Sen-
ator wants, that is what I want?namely,
what we are doing month after month
with these gigantic sums of money being
expended in the intelligence field.
If we are going to have a Congress that
means anything, prerogatives, the proper
Senate committees ought to be informed.
Mr. GOLDWATEH.. I am not arguing
with the Senator.
The PRESIDING 0141010ER, The time
of the Senator has expired.
Mr. E'LLENDER. Mr. President, I yield
the Senator, from Arizona 1 additional
minute.
The PRESIDING OFFICER, The Sen-
ator from Arizona is recognized, for 1
additional minute.
Mr. GOLDWATEA. Mr. President, lack
of redundancy is the secret of what to
my opinion is the best intelligence of the
world, the British Intelligency Agency.
We have three separate groups that keep
piling in an input of redundancy, and
each of them becomes a problem of de-
termining which are the most valid.
I thank the Senator from Missouri.
Mr. SYMINGTON'. Mr. President,
again the House Appropriations Com-
mittee, this month, said:
The committee feels that the intelligence
operation of the Defense Departrrient is grow-
ing beyond the actual needs of the depart-
merit and are now costing an inordinate share
the most critical aspects of intelligence $750 Million. It says the Defense Intern-
analysis is taken out of the hands of career gence Agency has a budget of $100 mil- of the fiscal resources of the department.
professionals and vested in a combination$700 Redundancy is the watchword of any intelli-
of military professionals and the White House lion and spends an added million
through Armed Forces. Then it goes into gence operation. The same information
staff? sought to be obtained by various members
additional agencies?Six of them, no fig-
and various organizations is naturally less
ures. effective than it should be.
I am a member of Armed Services, an Naturally that stimulated my interest
ad hoc member of Appropriations' a
in trying to get at the facts.
member of the CIA Subcommittee, and a Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, I want
to speak after the Senator from Louisi-
member of the Foreign Relations Com-
mittee, and I would like to know what ana. However, will the Senator yield me
Is going on in this vital field. 2 minutes for the purpose of asking a
When we read that $6 billion is being question on that point?
spent on intelligence, that may be bil- Mr. ELLENDER. I yield 2 minutes to
lions of dollars too high, but I would like the Senator from Mississippi.
to know something about it. Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, I refer
Mr. GOLDWATER. The thing I am to the same sentence that the Senator
iltisfOMMATV giajekedilAspeet to the intelli-
40' a i 'IP Ake Navy, and the
EXHIBIT 2
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
SEC. 102. (a) There is established under
the National Security Council a Central In-
telligence Agency with a Director of Central
Intelligence who shall be the head thereof,
and with a Deputy Director of Central In-
telligence who shall act for, and exercise the
powers of, the Director during his absence
or disability. The Director and the Deputy
Director shall be appointed by the President,
by and with the advice and consent of the
Senate from among the commissioned of-
cersitethe armed ericesovehether in an
troved ,or eleseiOltalf
dividus civilian life: Provided, owev/ 0
I's
?
Novembh%romci For ReLemaRiNA/CeiRWPWAlfpl R001300370002119525
Air Force. The Senator does not mean to
include what we call tactical intelligence
that is done at the level of a battalion?
Mr. SYMINGTON. No.
Mr. ST.ENNIS. He does not mean where
a colonel would order a captain to go out
and patrol for the purpose of seeking
out and getting prisoners to try to get
Intelligence about the enemy.
Mr. SYMINGTON. I would not want to
Include the battlefield, but I do want to
include all military operations of the
Central Intelligence Agency. The Sec-
retary of Defense stated, in open session:
We have no Pentagon military operations
in Lace.
I believe that is true because he said it.
This means the Central Intelligence
Agency is running the war in Laos, and
if so, the Foreign Relations Committee
and the Armed Services Committee
ought to know at least something about
It.
Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, for one
illustration, the Senator's amendment
refers to what are in the budget items
here for the Central Intelligence Agency,
the 7Tat1onal Security Ageney, and the
Defe use Intelligence Agency. That is the
primary references and inclusions that
are in the Senator's amendment.
The? PRESIDING OFFICER. The time
of the Senator has expired. ? ?
Mr. ELLENDER. Mr. President, I yield
1 additional minute to the Senator from
Mr. SYMINGTON. No intelligence unit
should evade the purposes of my amend-
ment by delegating some of the work
they would normally do to the Army,
the Navy, or the Air Force.
? Mr. STENNIS. I agree.
Mr. SYMINGTON. I feel that with-
out reservation because in this article
they state:
Bureaucracy has transformed what began
as an amateurish happy few into a sprawl-
ing intelligence conglomerate encompassing
more than a dozen government agencies,
200,000 employees and a budget of some $0
billion a year.
Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, I thank?
the Senator. We will come back to that
point later. [know that the Senator from
Louisiana wants to speak now.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, will
the Senator yield?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I will be glad to
yield on my own time to the Senator
from Arkansas.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I
would like to say that the distinguished
Senator from Missouri has opened the
door on one of the great issues for the
country and for the Congress.
The Senator is quite aware that he
has touched on a very sensitive nerve
because billions of dollars of intelligence
funds are contained in this appropria-
tion. No one can tell where in this bill
those funds are. When they read a line
item and find that there is so much for
aircraft, or for a carrier, those may or
may not be the real amounts.
This practice gives rise to questions
about every item in the appropriation.
I want to ask the Senator why he thinks
it is necessary to keep secret the amount
of money to be allocated from this ap-
propriation ppraipeiling ()PROW
Agency. Everyone knows what the
NSA does. They read about it in the
newspapers. Why is it necessary? What
purpose is served by keeping it secret?
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I do
not know. Mitch of it slips out.
r'For example, on March 31, 1971, in the
Senate Armed Services Committee hear-
ing, I asked the question:
On page 2 of the congressional data sheet
the last item on the table of aircraft procure-
ment program is "classified projects" $579,-
800,000, requested for 72. This is almost one-
th of the total aircraft procurement re-
uest. Would you please tell us briefly what
re the major projects in this category.
General Crow replied:
Because of classification, it can only be
rovided in oral briefing.
That exchange was declassified and
then made a matter of public record.
In the published hearings last year of
the House Appropriations Committee,
then Assistant Secretary of Defense
now Secretary of the Army,
was plenty critical of the intelligence
setup.
He said the cost of all military intelli-
genceivTh.=E=EZElja-
rotict
riz"illion; and that
was pu lish
I want s-
lative history we do not counter what we
are trying to do, namely, get the facts.
/91E?FULISRIGHT. Every 111118 an ap-
prorifialibii-FolielMong, we are told that
the Russians are out-distancing us every-
where. We are told this by the same Sen-
ators. It is like the swallows coming back
to Capistrano. And I wonder how that can
be because ,v,ze mend a lot more money
he Russians spen
One explanation
may be that we devote so much of the
money in this bill to nonmilitary items
such as intelligence. That may be an ex-
planation. It has always been a puzzle to
me why we get so little in hardware for
our money. We are told that we are a
second-class power, that we do not have
as many airplanes or ships as the Rus-
sians. We hear this all the time.
Either we are, or we are not, as strong
as we say. Certainly we spend plenty of
money. Are hearings held in the Commit-
tee on Armed Services on this issue? Has
the Senator ever attended any hearings
on the question of the activities of the
National Security Agency?
4yivrimaTcim We were briefed by
the Director of the Central Tnt,euigerwe
Agency twice, the full committee, last
Janu r ? and then a ai
Mr. FU . pia he discuss how
much was silent by the National Secu-
rity Agency?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I asked but he did
not know.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. He does not know?
Mr. SYMINGTON. He does not know
about the others, only his own in any
detail.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Is he not the head
of what is referred to as the intelligence
community?
Mr. SYMINGTON. He is the chairman
of the National Security Council Intelli-
gence Committee. sentence.
I
I _I ?
? ? ? ? tit ?
Halrna 3R ?
MI ?
*
I I ? ?
this new reorganization, should it not b
Mr. Helms?
Mr. SYMINGTON. That is what we are
trying to find out. It is all plenty fuzzy.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Was there no tes-
timony on the question of intelligence
in the Committee on Armed Services
that the Senator knows of?
Mr. SYMINGTON, No.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. And the Commit-
tee on Armed Services does not author-
ize anything specifically for intelligence? .
Mr. SYMINGTON. There is no au-
thorization in any way to pass upon in-
telligence activities in the Committee on
Armed Services. The able chairman of
the committee is in the Chamber. He
could so verify.
Mr. FT,ILBRIGHT. How long has the
Senator been a member of that commit-
tee?
Mr, SYMINGTON. It will be standing
20 years next January.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Would not the Sen-
ator have heard of such hearings if they
took place?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I would think so.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. The Senator hears
of all hearings that take place in the
Committee on Foreign Relations. Is that
correct?
Mr. SYMINGTON. Yes.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. What is the motive
or reason for keeping secret the amount
of money being spent, for example, by
the National Security Agency, which I
suspect is the largest operation? Why is
the amount of money secret? I am not
talking' about who their spy is, if they
have one. Why do they insist on secrecy
about the amounts?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I do not know. ,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Do they think the
Russians do not know we have the Na-
tional Security Agency?
,Mr. SYMINGTON. The worst spy we
ever discovered was probably in the Na-
tional Security Agency, a sergeant who ?
was leading a gay and double life, a spy
who, when caught, killed himself.
The point of my amendment is to em-
phasize that we in the Committee on
Armed Services and the Committee on
Foreign Relations do not have anything
like the necessary facts to properly allo-
cate the increasingly limited resources of
this country between international and
domestic programs.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. In this overall ques-
tion the Senator spoke about secrets, and
there are classes of secrets, of course.
The Senator talks about battlefield
secrets. Nobody is asking how many men
are being sent out on a foray into enemy
territory. We are interested in the
amount of money that goes into this bill
for intelligence because it is a very large
amount, I have not heard any suggestion,
any legitimate reason, why that amount
should be secret, other than one last sug-
gestion. Is this just a way to cover up
expenditures so there can be no account-
ing to the public or Congress?
Mr. SYMINGTON. There are no five
gentlemen anywhere?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. That is not the
question.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Let finish my .
ratgawydas,gififilib,b oariegifalkaanitUnnitz,
S 19526 Approved For Rele,g9t,ChysqgqIii, gR,AUB.0525?PitR00130820704102AW3, 1971
than these four and one lady. But this executive session about the authoriza- funded from many different appropria,-
Protest of mine is against the system, tiori?a-nd-approprrgibriof moneys in tions included the bill.
not the people involved. thiriairligence category. Mr. President, as I said, this is a rath-
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I hope that the Sen- -M17"COOPEA.-I would make one coin- er ticklish subject. It is a subject that I
ti n is ment .,do not care to discuss in the open. I be-
lieve that the Senator from Missouri (Mr.
SYMINGTON), and, as a matter of fact,
any other Senator on the committee who
desires to be briefed by the Defense De-
partment or by the Central Intelligence
Agency may be briefed. We request it at
times. There is nothing to stop the Sena-
tor from Missouri (Mr. SYMINGTON) or
the Senator from Mississippi (Mr. STEN-
NIS) from calling Mr. Helms before the
committee to give them an idea of what
he is doing. But this matter of justifying
the amount of money asked in order to
carry on intelligence has been for years.
confined to a few people, became of the
sensitivity of the sUbject. I am very hope-
ful that that method can be continued.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President,- will
the Senator yield for a question?
Mr. ELLENDEH. In I minute.
When I first became one of the live,
I attended these hearings. The late Sen-
ator Russell was then chairman of the
committee. I attended the hearings and
took a - good deal of interest in them.
After hearing both the Defense Intel-
ligence as well as the CIA requests, I
thought that there was somewhat more
money asked for than needed. So my first
effort as a member of the five was to re-
duce the number of people engaged in
intelligence: As I recall, we asked that
the number of persons engaged in cer-
tain intelligence activities be reduced by
5,000, and that was done.
Mr. President, I wish to say that this
year, instead of trying to reduce the
number of persons, we actually reduced
ator does not infer uw.t my
based on any suspicion about any Mem- It is always a matter that is trouble-
ber. some because it could involve security,
Mr. SYMINGTON. No. but it is a fact we learned during the
Mr. FULBRIGHT. If the Senator wants last several years that without the
to raise that issue let the say that I have knowledge of Congress our country has
the greatest respect for the Senator from become involved in pressures that led to
. Louisiana and I am willing to turn the a long and costly war.
whole Senate over to him and go home Mr. SYMINGTON. The Senator is so
because he has the experience. I am as right. That is one of the primary reasons
fond of him as I am of any man in public for my amendment. 1
life. That is not the question. Mr. ELLENDER. Mr. President, I yield
Mr. SYMINGTON. I agree. myself 5 minutes.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. The Senator from The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen-
Louisiana is a Member of this body and ator from Louisiana is recognized.
has been for a long time, and I am sure Mr ?FLIZ,N_DER Mr. President, I re-
he does not take the position he sho
pass on all issues that come here because
he has had long experience. That is not
the system. I do not understand why the
overall amount for these activities has to
be secret.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Neither do I.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It is a very bad
practice because it casts doubt on this
whole appropriation. When you look at
an item in this bill you wonder if it is
really the amount of money for the A-14,
for example, or if, it is for the NSA. One
cannot tell what it is.
? Mr. SYMINGTON. The Senator is cor-
rect.
Mr. CRANSTON. Mr. President, will followed all these years.
the Senator yield? I would hesitate to have these programs
Mr. SYMINGTON. I yield to the able submitted to the committee of the whole
Senator from California. because of the highly sensitive nature of
Mr. CRANSTON. Are there references the material that come before us. In
In the appropriation bill to funds for order to justify the amounts asked, we
intelligence uses? are told the reasons why it is needed.
Mr. SYMINGTON. No. My fear is that if this material were the amount of money requested.
Mr. CRANSTON. How are they pro- made widely available, we would do harm I wish to point out that I have dish
vided for; by padding other categories? to our own intelligence operations., Of Cussed this matter with Mr. MAIION, who
Mr. SYMINGTON. I am not sure I course 'these intelligence operations are is chairman of the House Appropriations
have enough knowledge to answer. Pre- a very important part of our overall de- Committee. We discussed together what
sumably yes. fense. ought to be done to reduce the amount
Mr. CRANSTON. What is the Sena- I do 'not understand the extent of the a money that was requested for Intel-
tor's answer on what is provided to the amendment of my good friend from Mis- ligence. I gave him a few ideas of what
intelligence cominunitv? souri. The amendment reads: I proposed to do.
SYMINGTON. I have heard so The Central Intelligence Agency, the Na- The PRESIDING OFFICER. The time
many varying facts that is another pri- tional Security Agency, and the Defense In- of the Senator has expired.
mary reason I introduced the amend- telligence Agency, and for intelligence work Mr. ELLENDkat. I yield myself 3 more
ment. . performed by or on behalf of the Army, minutes.
. 44.r, CRANSTON. The Senator has no Navy, and the Air Force. I wish to say that he not only listened
ized or appropriated by Congress and the
that in any way could be considered re-
Mr. SYMINGTON. I have no estimate
estimare?
the purpose of the amendment is that
motely accurate.
Senator yield?
as these appropriations or the money
spent in these intelligence functions are
not known and are not directly author-
Mr. COOPER. Mr. President, will the gence gathered, whether it be tactical or
not, is gathered either by the CIA or the
Defense Department.
Well, of course, much of the intelli-
This? method of appropriating funds to me, but adopted some of the ideas I
gave him. So the House reduced the in-
telligence request by $320 million, and the
by $70 million more, making a total re-
Senate committee reduced the amount
duction for this year in the amount
cut back a good deal more than the cut
for these intelligence activities has been
Mr. SYMINGTON. I yield. asked of $390 million.
Mr. COOPER. Do I understand that I think that is a substantial reduction
in effect for at least 20 years that I know
is seen fitting. s as tee and by the House after careful hear-
in our intelligence. I want to pledge to
the Senate that as a member of the five,
I shall continue to look more deeply into
this matter, in the hope of being able to
made this year.
These cuts were made by our commit-
the Senate and Congress should actu- of, since I have been on the committee.
We Ave wile sit on this committee hear
the testimony of those applying for funds
The funds are justified to us We ask.
many questions. None of this 'info a-
tion is in writing, nor is it recorded, but
it is simply given to us and we weigh it
and then recommend Lppropriation
\
. Senate, that the Senator wants to make
it _a_raa ter af_preceetrit and right that
ally authorize and appropriate these \ ---Irh
e PRESIDING Ove'ICER. The time CIA. I would hesitate to suggest that
ings of Defense Intelligence as well as the
funds?
lair. SYMINGTON. That is. correct. of the Senator has expired. more Senators and more Members of thei
is specific the Senator yield for a question?
M" ELoreLENDER. I yield myself 5 min- House be involved in this sensitive work.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President
a matter of right, I believe there are cer-
le
will
A.s
1
tain committees, the Committee on ut:
I
gret that the Senator from Missouri saw
fit to introduce this amendment. Of
course, I am opposing it.
I have been in the Senate for 35 years.
I have been on the Committee on Appro-
priations for about 22 or 23 years. Ever
since I have been on that committee, all
the appropriations affecting our sensi-
tive intelligence program have been
handled by only a few Members of the
Senate and a few Members of the
House. Twenty years ago we started out
with two Members. That number has
been increased to five, who are chosen
from the Committee on Appropriations.
That has been the method that has been
Armed Services and the Committee on There no appropriation for
Mr. ELLENDER. I yield.
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. at-ig151580-01601R001300370002-9
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N ovembeiNT Tipp For RMmgannieM_D_FstlfR,H01 ROO 1 30037000259/9527 ?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. This intelligence
covers a lot more than intelligence gath-
ering. Does it not also cover, for exam-
ple, the cost of the organizalion of the
war in Laos, supported by the CIA?
Would that not be included in this same
amount of money? It is financed through
the CIA. This is no secret. It has been
published.
Mr. ELLENDER. I saw it publicized?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Perhaps the Sena-
tor does not agree to it, but it has been
published. But supndse, as a hypothetical
case, that it is carried on by the CIA.
Would not that operation be carried in
this. amount?
Mr. ELLENDaat. For that activity?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, for the man-
power. It has been stated that the CIA
has 06,000 there. It is no secret. Would
the Senator say that before the creation
of the army in Laos they came before
the committee and the committee knew
of it and approirdd it?
Mr. ELLENDER.Wbably.. so. .
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Did the Senator
approve it?
Mr.?ELLENDER. It was not?I did
not know anything aboUt It.
MT: A7L1310- the whole idea
of Congress declaring war is really cir-
cumvented by such a procedure, is it not?
Mr. ELLENDER. Well, Mr. President,
I wish to say that?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Is it not?
Mr. ELLENDait. No; I do not think so.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Well, if you can
create an army and support it through
the CIA, without anyone knowing about
it, I do not know why it is not. That is
a hypothetical question I am asking.
Mr. ELLENDER. I understand. But,
Mr. President, I wish to say that I do
not know. I never asked, to begin with,
whether or not there were any funds to
carry on the war in this sum the CIA
asked for. It never dawned on me to ask
about it I did see it publicized in the
ewspapers some time ago.
f Mr. FULBRIGHT. Well, this has been
I publicized often. But the CIA has many
large operations. They operated a revo-
lution in Guatemala some years ago, and
threw out the government. But does not
the Senator think Congress ought to
know?
Mr. ELLENDER. W let Congress
change the rulea, if it so delis, Let
Congress designate--nion- the _five
we have. But I would-like to see it_pro-
ceed in an orderly fashion, the same as
it has in the past; "and-rif?tin-
guislied SenatEir frorli-75
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Let me ask, why
does the Senator seem to think it is so
necessary to keep secret the operations
in Laos, as opposed to Vietnam? We have
great publicity on Vietnam; why does the
Senator think it has to be secret, the
operation in Laos?
Mr. ELLENDER. It is apparently not
secret, since the Senator knows about it.
I think the Senator from Missouri (Mr.
YM] NGTON) has sent some investigators
lout there and secured a lot of informa-
ion that he made public.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Well, the news-
account, and then we sent the people out
there to check on it, it was so amazing.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Ajx.,__Presirlent if
the abl hairman wil ield
published any 0 ? 01 ? along this
line thaLwas _nnt cleared first.
--Yrr-FULBRIGHT. One of the reasons
why this committee was created was as a
result of reading in the newspapers just
such stories, because it was incredible
that we were supporting an army of 36,-
000 and paying for it without knowing
about it.
The PRESIDING 0.rae10ER0 The Sen-
ator's time has expired. Who yields time?
Mr. ELLENDER. I yield 10 minutes to
the Senator from North Dakota.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I wonder if the Sen-
ator would give us the reason why this
sh WA all be secret.
..Mr----YeUlga. Mr:. President, I have
served on this Intelligence Subcommit-
tee on Appropriations for 5 or 6 years,
and this is the first time I ever attempted
to defend what the CIA or any intelli-
gence agency does. In order to do it, you
would have to document your case, and
one cannot document intelligence and
pying. Spying is a dirty business, but it
is a business every nation in the world
engages in. Russia does a bigger job of
It than we do. You cannot disclose secret
Information. But it is very valuable to
us. It was very valuable to know, when
we had the showdown with Cuba, just
what the Russians would and would not
do.
This five-member committee was not
publicized or listed until about 3 or 4
years ago. The House of Representatives
does not list their names yet.
You always have to have some secrecy
In Government. For example, when the
atomic bomb was developed, if there had
been more than 10 people in the House
and Senate who knew about that, it
would have been public knowledge. But
this was one of the best kept secrets in
history.
You have all kinds of intelligence. For
example, the satellites are intelligence-
gathering vehicles. Would a weather
satellite be an intelligence-gathering ve-
hicle? It could be a part of military in-
telligence. That knowledge is very im-
portant to them. Does the Symington
amendment include this?
As to all these press stories we read
and hear, this is an interesting subject to
write about, of course. People like to read
them. I do, too. And if you want to read
something very interesting and authori-
tative where intelligence is concerned,
read the Penkovsky papers. Penkovsky
was a Russian spy who became very dis-
illusioned with.the Russian Government,
and told us all he knew about Russian
Intelligence, and he was caught. He knew
he was going to be caught eventually, and
he was caught and killed.
But this is a very interesting story, on
why the intelligence we had in Cuba was
so important to us, and on what the Rus-
sians were thinking and just how far they
would go. For the life nf inP_Lcautiot
unde f mnney
'we spend for intelligence would have to
do with the Come:fitters FnrPign Re-
papers published the information before
lations or Armed Services.
that We wexiirrted to the sit /aim
when I first vow otillWeas eaU0410310,,..._ 4r: ieloURDPEIONO
0 "
intelligearet. So far as I am concerned,
there_ is no_ObTeZtro-fito that corrinilttee
from whycnintel1inilble
-Mr. FULBRICiFIT. No; I am not inter-
ested in the spies and their mistresses,
and the GolcIfinger type of thing. But
here is a vast amount of money. I gave
one illustration. Does not the Senator
think it is our responsibility to know
about the kind of activity in Laos, which
I am quite certain is going on? In fact,
I know it. But we were first alerted
through the newspapers of the army
there.
The Senator says it was a tremendous
thing to keep the atomic bomb secret. As
a matter of fact, suppose it had been
known we were making one, what would
have been the harm in that? It was not
the secrecy that was significant, it was
the fact that we succeeded. I do not know
why the secrecy was all that important.
If they had known we would have it in
advance, it is quite possible that we
would not have had to drop it. I do not.
know; that is a speculative matter. But).
I am not impressed with the argument
that it was so important to keep it secret,
other than perhaps as far as the techni-
cal thing was concerned.
When Roosevelt asked for 50,000 air-
planes, everyone knew we were going
to build 50,000 airplanes. We did build
them, and used them.
But this secrecy and classification has
become a god in this country, and those
people who have secrets travel in a kind
of fraternity like a college secret society,
and they will not -speak to anyone else.
Yet the Senator wants us to appropriate
the money and Vote for the bill. I want
to say that I find it very difficult to vote
for a measure as to which I do not know
whether the amount involved is $5 or
$10 billion. When I think about what a
poor, second-class Nation we are said to
be militarily, although we spend twice
as much as the Russians, it occurs to me
that it may be $20 billion, for all I know.
I cannot understand why it is so im-
portant to be secret. As the Senator said,
we know that the Russians do it, and the
Russians know that we do. Everyone
knows that we monitor their shots, just
like they monitor ours. We all do the
same thing. There is no secret about
that, except that we do_not know what
we are spending on it and how auld-Ut
I.:_ltag...2EQ....alsa_cici-uat-Irrinw about the
opera ? ? ? - .l hence
gathering.
unusual that we have an
agency called an intelligence agency out
operating a war. That is like the Penta-
gon. It is not gathering intelligence in
Laos; I submit it is organizing and pay-
ing for a war. It is running airlines and
paying for them. That is not intelligence
gathering at all.
Mr. YOUNG. Is the Senator talking on
his time or mine?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I just ask the Sen-
ator, why should that be a secret? I really
do not know. If we hire citizens of other
nations to do in am o la, what our oa-sca
people are fori2jelaen..to_da_byjaw...eloes
the Senator think that is good?
-TErPRESIDING 0.eaoi-CER. The Sen-
tee10001601067000 2148 time?
Approved For Release 2001/03/04: CIA-RDP80-01601R001300370002-9
S 19528 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ? SENATE iv ovemver 23, 1971
Mr. ELLENDER. I yield 1 more I will not go into any further details last several years. It haajjeen_reducing
minute. on that. That is just one illustration. its budget- carries on its job in a
Mr, YOUNG. I read in the magazines As I say, you cannot begin to go into professional way, in the finest way.
y.. if
and newspapers where the CIA was sup- this matter. But the question has been There is n intelli ence
posed to be hiring soldiers in Laos. If raised about the secrecy, why the secrecy, some kind. I call it a p an, and we are
they hired some there, I am not op- and I refer now to section 6 of the going into it now. That came out of the
posed to it. The British have hired sol- amendments to the National Security White House. We can argue about that,
diers for 500 years. If someone was hired Act. The amendments were passed in make fun of it. But intelligence is not a
, to interrupt the movement of goods and 1949, as I recall. My time will be up laughing matter. We are going into that
equipment down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, almost by the time I read this special fully now. I was not advised about it
I am not opposed to that. section. This is the law that Congress beforehand. I do not expect anybody to
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Maybe it is a good Passed at that time for the security sys- give me a great deal of attention, but I
thing, but why the secrecy? I am not now tern we were trying to set up. wish the chairman of the Armed Serv-
saying that it is good or bad. I am asking, Section 6. In the interests of the security ices Committee and the ranking member
why should it be so secret? of the foreign intelligence activities of the had been advised about it, and Appro-
. Mr. YOUNG. You can find out that United States, and in order to further mi- priations. But they were not. But we are
poflemtheinst ttithlee, ptrhoavtisothoef Dseirceteiotonr 400f3(Ccle)h.tiai going into it now.
much without knowing the amount of
money they, are appropriated. The Intelligence shall be responsible for protect- My impression is that we are talking
amount of money is Certainly not so ing intelligence sources and methods from about someone being kicked upstairs and
Important as the amount of intelligence. 'unauthorized disclosure, the agency shall be denied authority- and some other fellow
The Senator can get thatas well as I can. exempted from the provisions of section 654 put in. I do not know whether that is
Mr. FULBRIGHT. If the money in of title v . . . true or not, but I do not believe it is.
l .
liere for intelligence is $20 billion, I think As I recall hurriedly, this relates to the elms does not think_so. But we are get-
ting to the bottom of it. As soon as I
that is very important for the Senate to disclosures. Some of these titles have heard this, I called him up and told
know. been repealed, but this is the -blanket
The PRESIDING OFFICER. Who that was put on it then. him:
yields time? You are the only man who has. been ap-
. . . and the provisions of any other law proved by the committee and the Senate to
Mr. ELLENDER. I yield 10 minutes to which require the publication or disclosure be Director of the CIA. You are the only man
the Senator from Mississippi. of the organizations, functions, names, ape- we approved, and you are the only man, so
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Could the Senator ? cial titles, salaries, or numbers of personnel far as I am concerned, who is going to be its
say what percentage the committee cut employed by the agency. 'rector, until we do something about it.
the budget? Would he say they cut the
budget 20 percent, or 10 percent?
Mr. ELLENDER. We cut the budget
$390 million.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Is that 20 percent,
or 10 percent?
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen-
ator from Mississippi is recognized.
Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, for
what length of time am I recognized?
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen-
ator from Mississippi is recognized for
10 minutes.
Mr. STENNIS. May I ask what time
remains to the two sides?
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The re-
maining time is 13 minutes on each side.
Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, I thank
the Senator from Louisiana for yielding
to me.
Mr. President,'to try to settle a matter
such as this, involving our activities all
over the world?open and secret?with
45 minutes of debate to a side, to me, is
tragic. I want to underscore that to every
Member of this body, and with great re-
spect for the author of this amendment.
He and I really have rather good feelings
for each other, I think.
__Yr. SYMINGTON. We certainly do.
r Mr. STENNIS. I think it is a great
tragedy, and I would like the elected
leaders of this body to hear what I am
saying about that. It is absolutely impos-
sible even to begin to state the facts,
much less argue or explain the proce-
dures about this matter. It is tremendous.
It is perhaps the most important work
we do in all the national security ele-
ment.
There has been talk about it not being
That is the ban of secrecy that was
put on it when we enacted this law. That
Is indicative of what Congress thought
about it?suspended all the other re-
reqUirements, and all laws, and so forth.
Further:
Provided that in referring to this section,
the Director of the Bureau of the Budget
shall make no reports to Congress in connec-
tion with the agency under sections 047 . .
of title V.
. That was with all deference to the
deputy. I want a civilian in control of
that agency, for my part. We had to ap-
prove this man. He assured me that his
dominance over it, his effectiveness, his
powers over, it will not be diminished -
one bit. He told us that today. We had a
hearing on this matter.
That is just touching the high points.
But we are going into it, and we are
going to analyze it and study it and have
I understand that that is a reference an investigation?if one wants to use
to personnel, and I do not know what that word?if necessary. We do not take
else. Those sections have been repealed these things lightly. The stakes are too
a little, changed a little, reenacted, and high. .
so forth. f Now, about these other agencies. Sen-
But there is the secrecy. It was in the ators know what they get into. I am not
atmosphere of this ? guideline that men going to delineate any more. I mentioned
such as Styles Bridges, former chairman the U-2. I do not like some things about
of the Appropriations committee some intelligerice. As has been said, spying is
Members of the Senate knew him; the spying. But if we are going to have an
late Senator Russell?many of the Sen- intelligence agency, we have to have an
ators knew him; Leverett Saltonstall; intelligence agency, and it cannot be run
and a good number of others worked out as if you were running a tax collector's..
a plan, trying to carry out their func- office or the HEW or some other such
tions. They worked out a plan whereby department. You have to make up your
this matter would be taken care of. mind that you are going to have an in-
la_gpsdnes,s _talking about trying to telligence agency and protect it as such,
keep something secret from me other and shut your eyes some and take what
aria ol.'seiriebodY else Tryin?tg_EFro- is coming.
tect this country. It. is in that spirit that This is a great deal of money here. I
this matter has bee1,1- eied on?naLa want to refer now to the last few words
pleasant duty, by any Yneans. I will get in the Senator's amendment. I do not
Olit anytime someone holding a responsi- know how far down the line that lan-
ble position in the Senate. such as our guage goes, but I think it goes much
h
leader, says wo_h
as been selected and farther down the line of intelligence
Who will talc.eln.V j;11e,ae. _
---;-= than anything we handled in the method
e thin I have we talked about. .
seen come before the Senate, to han e it That language is broad enough. to go
this way. I have no criticism of my ifiend to tactical intelligence. Every military
Itemized in the bill. Vic' i you ever ape the here. But that is the gravity of it. It can unit in the field has an intelligence offi-
U.-.21temiz.eflAti_any_anpropriation bill? be proved by other sections of the law. cer. In Vietnam they have to go out?we
Of course not. But it was throne') the The whole Central Intelligence Agency have heard the Senater tell about it?we
U-.2 til a t we aat?th? ?IAA voLuahle_Le. is brought into focus here. I want to say send a major or a captain out with a
formatiqn that perhaps we pair have that I have been watching them for quite patrol to try to take prisoners, and the
gotten-. It saved us hundreds of millions a while. This Agency is conducted in a prisoners are quizzed, to try to find out
oufs tdoolalrafperre d tpeirikteil tt
eirse geaizotTimil*
motiVISPINVOlt?htthsatlasnog:tagoef
g g
?, inbiAppipyp,di For Re 919I actitop_m2,94pgi R001300370002-96
activity: tactical patrols. But it is not a
budgeted item in the bill or in any of
the matters I have been talking about.
We would not know where to start. I
do not know how much these tactical
intelligence activities cost. It is not a
budgeted item. There is no way to cal-
culate it. That is part of running the
Army. That is part of running the Navy.
Think, for example, about the big sums
of money that must have been spent in
Korea on such tactical intelligence.
Ad r. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, will
the Senator from Mississippi yield for a
question? .
Mr. STENNIS. I do not yield at thit
time. This is all so tragic?so little time
I have to yield to any Senator?I can talk
to l3enators about this matter in the
cloakroom, or in their offices, or in my
office, but here tonight, in just a few
minutes on this ending matter, I am
not going to use my time to try to answer
questions that way. I say again, I wish
the leaders were in here?they are busy
somewhere else?so that I could try to
impress upon them the necessity for fur-
ther time. I did not hear the unanimous
consent request about the limitation. I
was handling another matter then. It
will take hours and hours fully to explain
this matter, so that this body could intel-
ligently pass on it. The Senator is giving
an absolute figure here which, according
to the interpretation, is far, far beyond
what the Senator would intend to do.
So in the last 10 seconds here, let me
warn about the necessity that the only
thing to do now is to vote this amend-
ment down, and then take up the cudgels
and the problem again and work it out
some other way.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I am
impressed with the observations of the
chairman of the Armed Services Com-
mittee, his stating this amendment is
not drawn properly, and so forth. I wish
his interest in the subject had developed
to the point where he had held just one
meeting of the CIA subcommittee this
year.
To show the lack of respect the execu-
tive branch has for the Senate, there was
not one Senator who was approached in
any way before the White House made
this basic, major reorganization of our
entire intelligence apparatus.
Mr. STENNIS. We will attend to that
oneBenator_teo.
Mr. SYMINGTON. As a longtime
member of the Committee on Foreign
Relations, as an ad hoc member of the
Appropriations Committee and the rank-
ing member of Armed Services, I re-
spectfully plead with my colleagues to
allow me to receive in executive ses-
sion enough intelligence information to
in turn form an intelligent judgment on
matters which so vitally affect our se-
curity; and so I can vote in committee
and on the floor of the Senate on the
basis of the facts. There have been sev-
eral cases where I have not been able
to do that in the past. In my opinion,
this lack of disseminated information
has cost the country a great deal of
treasure and a number of American
lives.
Now,
to the
CRANSTON) , and then 1 minute to the
Senator from Arkansas (Mr. FUL-
BRIGHT).
Mr. CRANSTON. I would like to ad-
dress some questions to the distinguished
chairman of the committee. The chair-
man stalest. that he never wou=ave
thought of even asking about CrEMTias
bklInitia_conduct,_the_war_iia_Laos
I am sure I never would have thought to
ask such a question. But it appeared
in the press that perhaps that was hap-
pening. I would like to ask the Senator
if, since then, he has inquired and now
knows whether that is being done?
Mr. ELLENDER. I have not inquired.
Mr. CRANSTON. You do not know, in
fact?
Mr. ELLENDER. No.
Mr. CRANSTON. As you are one of
the five men privy to this information,
In fact you are the No. 1 man of the five
men who would know, then who would
know what happened to this money?
The fact is, not even the five men, and
you are the chief one of the five men,
know the facts in the situation.
Mr. ELLENDER.
Mr. CRANSTON. The Senator stated
that $390 million has been cut. I applaud
that action. Could the Senator tell me
what figure in this bill is cut by $390
million, or is there no figure that has been
cut specifically?
Mr. ELLENDER. No specific figure.
Mr. CRANSTON. What is the total
figure appropriated?the total amount
appropriated by the bill?
Mr. ELLENDER. The total of the bill
as reported is $70,242,513,000.
Mr. CRANSTON. When we run
through the bill, we find that there is
allocated money for pay and allowances,
for individual clothing, for subsistence,
for interest on deposits, for retirement
pay, for travel, for operation and main-
tenance, for medical and dental care,
for welfare and recreation, for medals
and awards, for emblems and other in-
signia, and then an itemization for the
hiring of people, and miscellaneous items
such as procurement of aircraft, procure-
ment of naval vessels, leasing of build=
tags, the purchase of milk, itemized fig-
ures on expenses of prisoners, figures for
each of those, and so forth. Is the way
these items are handled inflated, or
bloated, in fact?some of them, at least
?that will cover up what is in this bill
for intelligence?
Mr. ELLENDER. Yes, the Senator is
correct?some of it.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I
yield 1 minute now to the Senator from
Arkansas.
The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr.
TALMADGE) . The Senator from Arkansas
is recognized for 1 minute.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. The Senator from
Mississippi, whom we all respect so
greatly, I think "maatesteth too much.?
All the amendment does is simply to put
a ceiling on the overall amount which
may be expended for intelligence activi-
ties. The amendment has nothing to do
with secrecy. It does not in any way seek
to make public any of the State secrets
. s comments a on an see w p on
Mr. ArrlitietfletaidtarianetitilkOntitiaan ct'O
ivireaman tro to say
fi limita-
Sen ?
merely trying to ,put a ceiling on intelli-
gence expenditures. It is also rather odd
thatatjaeenator om Mississippi said
telligence, and yet the ehairman_of the
that we
ca it $39kmillion What was the orieinal
atiounrfroin which the cut was made?
The overall amount to which the Senator
from Missouri (Mr. SYMINGTON) refers
is the same thing the Senator from
Louisiana, who knows what he is talking
about and, as chairman of the commit-
tee, spoke to this body about. Yet the
Senator from Mississippi says he has no
idea what is spent for intelligence.
The Senator from Louisiana knows
what total he is talking about when he
says it was cut $390 million. The Sena-
tor from Louisiana certainly has some
figure in mind. He was not talking about
sergeants going out, looking for booby
traps. He had some total figure in mind.
It is strange that the chairman of the
Armed Services Committee has no idea
what the Senator from Louisiana is talk-
ing about.
Mr. STENNIS. Will the Senator from
Arkansas yield at that point?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I do not yield to the
Senator on my time. The Senator re-
fused to yield to me. The Senator from
Mississippi has tried his best to obfuscate
this matter. If he is as serious about this
thing as he says he is?and I think this is
a serious matter, as a matter of fact, the
most serious thing we have before us-. I
do not, think it is tragic to bring it up.
So why do we not have an executive ses-
sion and talk about it at length?
If the Senator from Mississippi would
like to have an executive session, we could
talk about it all day, sometime next week,
when we return after Thanksgiving.
, We talk about intelligence. It is no
secret from anyone that we a-re waging
war in Laos and have been for a long
time.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, fol-
lowing the thought of the Senator from
Arkansas, if _the_alaleaelaairMAI.I.P.. 1.?.:12.nro-
priations, the Senator from Louisialca
(Mr. ELLENDER-) and 'tTie?able Chairman
of the Armed Services, the Senator-from
MisSiSsippi..(MraSTmsans)a_wilt_agree__to
a secret session next week, so we could
discuss this matter more thorougnIY7I
win-Withdraw my amendment tolifar
rniSk th-e-SMTator-from -Louisiana- and
'the Senator from Mississippi if they
would agree to such a session?
Mr. ELLENDER. Answering for my-
self, I wouid lign--to complete this bill. If
the Senator desires toetalkaahout it after
the bill is completecLineexaantive-ses-
sion, that is all right with me. But I
would nor-warint to interfeie with the
final passage of the bill.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Why not let the
bill wait until we get more facts about
the many billions of dollars involved?
Mr. ELLENDER. As I have said, we
agreed on the time for the Senator to
discuss the amendment. I am very anx-
ious to complete the bill today if possible.
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, there
has been much criticism of the time lira,
the Senator referred to Hi it ti d I themajorityhi
Yt?ii
s 1953A0 pp, roved For ReleseNEMMi cgtap800 simpipo o 1 3ovezomr923, 1971
Lion. But I did finally agree. I also agree Mr. SYMINGTON. One of the great The Senator from South Dakota (Mr.
with the Senator from Mississippi that surprises of my life was to find out how MUNDT) is absent because of illness.
there should not be a limitation on time. much of the money in this intelligence The Senator from Illinois (Mr. PERCY)
But if we want to proceed I ask unani- ? budget actually goes to the Central In- is detained on official business.
inous consent we have another 2 hours. telligence Agency. The Senator feels the a The Senator from Ohio (Mr. SAXElE)
Mr. GOLDWATER,. I object. situation in Laos is very wrong. We is absent on official business.
The PRESIDING OeVICER. Objec- could talk about other situations. If present and voting, the Senator
tion is heard. Who yields time? Mr. FULBRIGHT. T.e aSenator rP- from Illinois (Mr. PERCY) and the Sena-
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, hoar mings me_e_Lsomatlabag.about_Mr....Helnis tor from Maine (Mrs. Salmi) would each
much time remains?MrT-
_. ,Telaartts hasalaggralarabetter with the vote "nay." "
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Sen- Crari-gress than arayasither _intellie,ence The result was announced?yeas 31,
ator from Missouri has 5 minutes re- irlilio-Travadeala.T.-would_putr.him nays 56, as follows:
.
maining.afathea top. -.Thea-recentareorg,anization [No. 394 Leg.]
Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, I looks like araegartate_aurhylr. Helms in YEAS-31
Say to my colleagues that I have been - lai'v*--or of tilep. pa it a g o n , and this what I Bayh " Hart
Burdick ll tfield Nelson
how much money we were actu- rfr. SYMINGTON. I do not either, Byrd, W. Va. Hughes .?
C Humphrey
Inouye
Kennedy
Magnuson
Mansfield
, Metcalf
, Mondale
Montoya ?
told in confidence different figures con- do no Ike--
_
cerning
ally expending on national intelligence, moving into the hands of the military. Chiles
As a result of people going into foreign Mr MATHIAS. Mr. President, the old Cooper
lands we now know that much of what saying that some may apply to this Cranston
we are doing is both costly and unwise, amendment is that one should not stir Puitertit
, actions we would have undertaken if we muddy water. For the Senator from Mis- Gravelg
had had the right information. As the souri has focused our attention on water Harris
Senator from California pointed out, if that is not only muddy, but actually
we had had more information on certain murky. Many Members may be reluctant
important issues, we would have made to stir this water for fear of what they
different decisions. may find. I think we cannot delay much
All this amendment does is say we can- longer in turning our attention in this
direction for fear that what is there may
evade our examination and our concern.
But I find it intolerable that we should
4W:wt.-to debate and decide this ques-
tien withaalach a complete lack of firm
facts and reliable information, and with
the limitation of time and freedom of
expression that is necessary under exist-
ing conditions. Under the circumstances,
I feel unable to support this amendment
at this time. Lavould-aupports however,
a motion to hold an executive session at
airearry oate Ej.winch the whole issue
coua bet'll-Orhtfully
considered.
An alternative to an executive session
of the whole Senate miglatjap a joint
meeting :...of the Foreign_ Relations and
amount of money we spend than we were Arnie
at the time when the program developed. piiiiiii6.-te condifions that would- pe?Tinit
adequate itiVestigatiela thoutleopard-
It is important that the Senate, as a
izingasecuaity. While proper security is
whole, understands what the intelligence
a national requirement, yet the Congress
program is. I would think the Senate
must have the facts in order to resolve
would welcome an opportunity to have
the issues that are embodied in the re-
this explained. It would satisfy curiosity
arts of a secret war in Laos and other
about this matter. covert activities alleged to be conducted
occAalltoisotrhgaant Iizdeoannoatrsmeey,Ap.nvayrteh
we shoUld pass appropriations for the
anOdnecnoLtulicetthain
full-scale 1-1 sl acta lweo:aiers in
ne Lmaaosst.
reason
otnr oNovphsy, by one or another of our intelligence
le fought, has to be declared by Congreos.
et Congress did not know about the
?
agencies.
having expired, the question is on agree-
1
to the amendment of the Senator
from Missouri. Clm this question the yeas
and nays have been ordered, and the
clerk wiff call theyoll.
The PRESIDING OFFICER. All time
'.
Yet people of this country think we have
democracy in which a war, if one is to .
The assistant legislative clerk called
war in Laos until it was well underway.
the roll;
Today, while the war is known to.
Mr. BYRD of West Virginia. I an-
everyone, there still is no official ac- Mr.
that the Senator from Indiana
knowledgement. There is nothing in this
(Mr. HARTKE) , the Senator from South
bill to indicate how much money we will
Dakota (Mr. McGovaaar) , the Senator
spend in support of the army in Laos. It
from Maine (Mr. MusKie), the Senator
will be many millions Of dollars. I do not
from Louisiana (Mr. LONG), and the Sen-
see how we could support an army of the
ator from Utah (Mr. Moss) are neces-
size we do without that much money.
sarily absent.
I do not see what is wrong with know-
I further announce that the Senator
ing these things. This is an operation.
from Idaho (Mr. CHURCH) is absent on
This is not intelligence. It is the differ.;
ence between the 11-2 and the affair in official business.
the Dominican Republic, and upsetting Mr. GRIFFIN. I announce that the
the go tan t aplaterieg Maybe the Senator from Maryland (Mr. BEALL) ,
gross ought to know about them so that Maine .
not spend more than $4 billion on intel-
ligence this fiscal year.
I would hope that the Senate would
agree.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, will
the Senator yield?
Mr. SYMINGTON. I yield.
Mr. aIgHT. ?Mr. President, I
agree with what the Senator from Missis-
sippi said about the importance of this.
He said that we cannot dispose of all of
this in a few minutes. I agree. "
This amendment is a very important
amendment. It seems to me that when
this matter was brought up before, we
did have an executive session and did
discus S the matter.
Today we are much more critical of the
dServicesCommittees under ap-
these
r iaase2CISM zsYrivRIMIZETAV
:Ma
it can decide. sent.
Aiken
Allen
Allott
Anderson
Baker
Bellmon
Bennett
Bentsen
Bible
Boggs
Brock
Brooke
Buckley
Byrd. Va.
Cannon
Cook
Curtis
Dole
Dominick
Beall
Church
Cotton
Hartke
JavitS
Pell
Proxmire
Randolph
Ribicoff
Stevenson
Symington
Tunney
Williams
NAYS-36 r
Eastland ."" Miller
Ellender Packwood
Ervin Pastore
Fannin Pearson
Fong Roth
Gambrell Schwelker
Goldwater Scott
Griffin Sparkman
Gurney Spong
Hansen Stafford
Hollings Stennis
Bruska Stevens
Jackson Taft
Jordan, N.C. Talmadge
Jordan, Idaho Thurmond
Mathias ,? Tower
McClellan Weicker
McGee Young
McIntyre
NOT VOTING-113
Long Percy
McGovern Saxbe
Moss Smith
Mundt
Muskie
So Mr. SYMINGTON'S amendment was
rejected.
Mr. ELLENDER. Mr. President, I move
to reconsider the vote by which the
amendment was rejected.
Mr. STENNIS. Mr. President, I move
to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was
agreed ..to. .----------
TJNANIMOUS-CONSENT AGREEMENTS
MANSFIELD. Mr. President, it has
been a long and hard 3 weeks. I know
that ome Senators are getting tired.
Some ?ould like to put the bill over until
tomorr w. Others?I believe a majority-
would Ii e to finish it tonight.
It is in, understanding that as of now
We have o ly one amendment in conten-
tion, and tl e distinguished Senator from
New Ramps ire (Mr. McIaryau) has in-
dicated that e would be willing to agree
to a limitatio of 20 minutes.
I ask unani us consent that the Sen-
ator from New ampshire be allotted 15
minutes and th t the manager of the
bill be allotted 5 Mutes on that amend-
ment.
The PRESIDIN Or ICER. Is there
objection? Without objection, it is so
ordered. -
Mr. MANSFIELD. . President, I
' understand that anotl er possibly con-
tentious amendment wi not be offered,
mitt,Mmeith n amendment
shed Senator
from Nevada (Mr. CANNO ) and by the