INSCOM GRILL FLAME PROGRAM SESSION REPORT

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: STARGATE
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP96-00788R000200530001-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 60
• Document Creation Date: November 4, 2016
• Document Release Date: April 4, 2000
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: September 17, 1980
• Content Type: REPORT

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INSCOM
GRILL FLAME
PROGRAM
T CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH
D: 051630ZJUL78
NOT RELEAS EG { ONALS REVIEWDON~~/~ Ge-r~
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REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-4$
1. (S/NOFORN) This report documents a remote viewing session conducted in
compliance with a request for information on a target of interest.
2. (S/NOFORN) The remote viewer'Is impressions of the target are provided as
raw intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate
analysis, evaluation or collation Interpretation and use of the information
provided is the responsibility of the requestor.
3. (S/NOFORN) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document
Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated.
4. (S/NOFORN) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during
the remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer
reference his impressions of the target site., At TAB B is targeting informa-
tion provided the remote viewer. At TAB C are control analyst comments.
F
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REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-48
#66: This will be a remote viewing session for 0900 hours,
17 September 1980.
#66: Relax and concentrate now. Relax and concentrate. Relax
and focus your attention; focus your attention on the object
in the photograph contained in the sealed envelope I have
provided for you. Focus your attention on the target object.
Maintain your focus in present time, in present time, and
move to the target object at this time. Move now to the
target object at this time, and describe your surroundings
to me.
#07: Got..uh..tat(phonetic)..uh..is..spotlight tac(phonetic)
scanning this small bits and pieces wherever I look. Bu..h
(phonetic) have a (cough) impression...a grid like...city
streets...I saw a close up of one end of a buildin' in
particular. 'Den(phonetic) I got something...iss..(phonetic)
very strong it had nothing to do with all of this. Seemed
to be very deep, tubular...shape..'an..I can see the inside
'an outside of the tube...what I thought it went below
ground.
+05 #66: Focus narrow now. Focus narrowly, completely, and only
on the object. On the target object, and describe the target
object to me.
#07: Nah(phonetic)...ummm...gotta flashes of something-appears
to be tall...'an rounded on top...times ...'at it looks
like a watertower. Times it looks like.....a dome shape.
Round.
#07: 'Tay(phone.tic)...mmmmm...Ah...I gotta. . .very strange room-
like shape wi....inside of a building.... it's like looking
at a cu-cu-cutaway. Appears to be thick walled, uh...in the
basement...uh...valut-like thick walled shape. No windows.
no windows. Structure has....shallow peaked roof....'at's
at least one wing is a shallow peaked roof.
#11 #66: Okay. Listen very carefully, now. We're interested only in
the target object. Anything in the target area that blocks or
attracts your attention... only prevents you from describing
the target object. So, at this time ask yourself only for
imagery of the target object. We are interested only in the
target object. Now, ask yourself only for imagery of the
target object itself, and describe your imagery to me.
PAUSE
I
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#07: Ummm...ummm...I.....I guess for a moment there, I don't
know why.....I.....didn't fit anything I'd seen before, but
....when you said ask question, I...I got unstable imagery
of..uh..looked like armor of some kind....I don't know
where the hell it was. Very close, close-ups of armor;
heavy equipment. Has..ah (phonetic) muss' be lost because
it has nothing...in common with...the previous imagery.
#66: Ask yourself now, ask for a more detailed and clear picture
that you.might understand. Ask yourself for a more detailed
and clear picture that you might understand, and describe
your imagery to me.
+15 #07: Uh...I'm seeing... long interior... space, uh, which appears
to be arched at the top. But, it's very, very long...
space...inside. 'Bou meh(phonetic) 'bou meh(phonetic)
columns I see.. .stanchions... .must be supporting.... very
heavy load... I've got..uh..large interior with lots of
posts, stanchions.
#66: Ask for a picture of the object. Not the location of the
object, ask for a picture of the object once again.
#07: Umm...Goddah'(phonetic)...hum...I'm getting... something I
didn't expect..uh..I..uh..getting extreme close-up of a cone
..uh..cone shape..uh..hollow cone shape. Thought I..
recognize..uh..exhaust nozzle of..uh..some type of propulsion
device like you'd see on a rocket or something like that.
I thought I was gonna see tanks, but...I see extreme close-
up of shape like propulsion nozzle. Everything has gone
blank.
#66: Okay. Now, in the location where......
#66: That's fine. Just listen to my voice while you have a black
screen. Just listen to my voice while everything is black.
Ummm, in the location where you are now, where you're
perceiving, there are many, many things that are very
fascinating. Let us examine in detail only that, the target
object, and so that we may obtain this description let's start
with piece by piece of those things that you've come up with
so far. Beginning with your perceptions of armor, and your
opinion that you thought you might see tanks I want you to
explore in detail now those inputs before we move on to
others.
#07: Uh...It's just a fleeting thing...right over there to my
left, I saw...front, right corner of...two, two track type
vehicles. It flickered out of the way 'an about ten feet
further I passed a second one. I saw-real quick cut on a
....great big tube mounted on a ...heavy vehicle, which I
thought was.....might be tracked....it looked awfully heavy.
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#07: Tube appeared to be...I dunno, four, five feet diameter, but
it was empty, but...ay (phonetic) tracked vehicles were
about six feet away the first one. Back over there my...
oh, there it is, back over to my...to my left. There's
something funny about...I see a real bright hotspot...under
the.front glacis plate ...uhhh...right of center. ..just
bright, it don't... something about...eighteen, twenty inches,
uh...in from the box inside. It's gone, now, but dat was...
a tracked vehicles dat was...uh, closest to me.
#66: Is this the one with the tube?
#07: Oh, I dunno if the tube is the third one over there where
the...one, two... three... it's about, I dunno, thirty feet
away...over there.
#66: Do you recognize this vehicle?
#07: No. I don't recognize it.
#66: Describe it to me.
#07: I can't see all of it.
#66: Move over there.
#07: Jus' a minute ...Naw...I swear I think it's got tracks on
the damn thing. There's a big, a big tube on it's back.
It's got a...it seems kinda raised...somewhere? near the
front of this thing. Like, where I guess the driver sits,
or something. It's a big tube that's got little tubes an'
aah...structural shapes on the outside that...breaks up the
smooth rubular shape. Looks like it must be...twenty,
twenty-five feet long. But, I don't think, I don't think
it's a, I don't think it's a rocket, it...I don't see any
nose, it looks like, uh...I would think a rocket would
look.....like. I get the feeling...very heavy, thick skirting
below the tube on the vehicle carrier. Uh...I been trying
to get around to the rear.
#66: Where is the skirting?
#07: I was aware there was some kind of skirting... below the
level of where the tube was, uh... I was aware it was
thick, an', an' I think it goes over part of the wheels.
Wheels or track, or whatever the...an' I feel it's track.
#66: All right, I want you to stay with this...
#07: Track is...track...track that gets hot, for some reason.
#66: 'Kay, I want you to stay with this object for a few minutes,
here. But I want you to explore it for a minute in deep
concentration without reporting, and then come back to me
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#66: in a few minutes after you've explored it. Do so now.
#07: Okay. It was awfully hard to hang on there, I...kept slip-
ping away from me.. But I was getting ...extreme closeup
of...the thick plating that...seemed to...'stead of coming
straight down vertically, it appeared about midsection to...
taper underneath, there. An' the darn thing, I got a very
clear, distinct image of, uh...real heavy, black wheels.
I felt they were...were rubber, it's, uh...like a very heavy
rubber wheeled armored type thing with this...uh, tube on
top of it. It...if it wasn't for the wheels the thing
would almost have a...crude landing craft shape to it, uh...
kinda...flat plate...wellanted (phonetic) angles ...uh...
there was...
#66: Wait...say that again, please.
#07: Flat plates, uh...not, not warped t-t-to the shape of a
boat, but flat, straight, plates welded together to form...
armraff (phonetic) boat like shapes like...old fashioned
landing craft.
#66: All right.
+30 #07: Definitely appears to have...h-heavy tires in front and
multiple tires behind. Appears...longer 'an it did before.
'Cause I'm standing up beside of it looking way back...
you know.
#66: You no longer feel that this is tracked?
#07: What I saw when I tried.to look close was...tires, not
tracks.
#66: All right.
#07: An' the...vehicle appears longer than I...had thought. But,
I.,y.iwas having trouble really hanging on to the imagery,
it felt like I was on a slippery roof just slidin' away
from it an' I'm tryin'...tryin' to hang on.
#66: Okay. Let's examine the plates that you've been talking
about; the thick plates that are welded that you've been
talking about.
#07: Oh, I don't know that they're welded it jus' looks like...
they're welded. At least the outside one is, the weld
appears to be...inch and a ha...an inch and a quarter wide.
They's not a curved plate...I can't see any curved plates
on this thing.
#66: Describe the substance of construction of the plates.
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#07: Ummm... It looks to me like it's jus' a...uh...the...
right ...midsection...below ...halfway point ...down ...kinda
cur...uh...'tween the tires goin' underneath ...it...jus'
about an inch thick...three-quarter inch thick. Let me...
let me-sample somewhere else. The very top of it...
underneath the tube...can't be mor'n...it's a little thin-
ner...it appears to be a little thinner than, uh...it's
plate on the bottom side.
#66: All right. Now, let's explore some of the other imagery
that you've had. This response that you've given me was
the query as to your feeling of the armor and tanks. Now,
you had some other imagery at this location that you felt
might be the target relating to...a cone shape. Explore
that imagery now...
#07: Ahh, I only got a real closeup of that thing to...about eye
level.
#66: You talked about a propulsion type ...(mumbled).
#07: I thought it was, uh...business end of some kind of a...
It looked like the business end of a big...uh...rocket
like device. Uhhh...with the tubes leading to it, I felt it
was, uh...not solid propellant... Seemed to be...
#66: What size is this?
+35 #07: I.forgot how close I am...looks like the outside...uh...
biggest diameter is...twenty-five, thirty inches. An,
around the sdie there, I see some, uh...some plumbin'...
uh, um...tubes.
#66: Okay.
#07: '.Ere's a strange things...been happenin' to me here...
this is buggin' the hell out of me...
#66: All right...
#07: Jus' for the record. I been having trouble with my...
whole right side of my body tensing up very tight. Great
tension. I come aware of it, become aware of it...I make
it all relax. Two minutes later I find my right side is
very... muscular ...uh...muscular tension is...quite severe.
#66: Okay.
#07: It's jus' for the record.
#66: Now, in accessing the target object in the photograph in the
sealed envelope I provided you-
#07: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
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#66: In accessing the...object; the target object, in the sealed
envelope that I have given you, you have come up with the
cone shape, and you've come up with armor rand tanks. I
would like you now to ask yourself again, for a clarifi-
cation of the imagery you've given me. Ask yourself what is
the meaning of the imagery you've given me in relation to
the target object, and describe your answer to me.
#07: I don't know, just a minute, 'm gonna have t' try again,
uh...I got off track, there. All I could see was a dagwood
sandwich.. I'm not hungry. I, uh...jus' a minute.
+41 #07: I see a...a shell... projectile... part way into...a flat
material...that:would seem to...indicate a...interest in
penetrability...of...of certain type projectile, or...res-
istance to penetration... by the material. I tried to...
tried to...determine which one, and I couldn't.
#66: All right, now I want you to return to the imagery of the
dagwood sandwich. Now listen very carefully. In your
mind...
#07: Oh, 'at's just overlay...it's jus', I jus'...I donno why I
said it...
#66: Listen, listen very carefully. Listen very carefully. In
your mind, say that you have a picture of a dagwood sandwich.
In your mind....
#07: Okay.
#66: ...say that you have a picture of a dagwood sandwich, and
ask yourself, "What is the significance of this picture?"
Report your answer to me.
#07: I can't get the dagwood sandwich again, but...I got...I
got...a six inch square section about...lemme see, it that's
six inches, this is...uh...six inches, this-is ...close to
three inches thick. It looks kinda like a...cutting a sec-
tion out of a...a layered cookie or something, you know,
it's got a...different kinds of a...layers of goodies inside.
#66: All right.
#07: Waid, I (phonetic)...I think this is another view of the
dagwood, iss (phonetic)... it's metal...it's metal. The
outside...the top, the top is metal.
#66: All right, now...
#07: The top is metal..
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#66: Now concentrate on this entirely and completely, I'm going
to examine this in detail. I have to turn the tape over now.
#07: I don't know where it is...
#66: Just hold on to it, I'm going to turn our tape over now, and
then we'll examine the dagwood sandwich.
#66: All right.
#07: I...I dunno. It was like a...a six inch square, or a thin...
quarter to...half inch funny, funny, uh...metal. Doesn't
have paint on it. It's bonded, uh...bonded, uh...the
intershufface (phonetic) of this where (phonetic) metal
is, uh...
#66: (mumble) don't understand you.
#07: It's rough, am it's bonded. I've, I've got it pu-pe-peeled
apart, now. Just, uh, under this plate is, uh...I dunno,
it's a...kinda brownish, uh...tannish funny. layer of a-
of bonding, or something. I have the feeling that, uh...I
see fractures in it. It appears, uh...be kindaibrittle,
brittle, brittle stuff. I'm havin' trouble seeing the rest
of this stuff, but, uh...Damn thing keeps changing from
something important to something to eat. Yeah, there's a
'lastic, uh...stuff with, uh...'lastististisity (phonetic).
It's, uh...like, uh...the damn thing reminds me of, uh taffy.
It wa...it's tough, but it don't shatter, it's uh, it's
uh...stretchy stuff. Viscosity...increases with inertia.
Whatever the hell that means. Humm...I...I musta got mixed
up there, that don't make no sense.
#66: Continue.
#07: Oh, I just wrestle dis thing, wanted tuh...I was tryin' to
figure out...why the viscosity of this, uh....taffy-like
material-changes. There's something about the taffy's
viscosity increasing under certain conditions.
+50 #66: All right, remember it's not your job now to figure out
whatyou see, simply report it to me. Move on, now.
#07: Where do you want me to go?
#66: Continue to describe this that you perceive as a dagwood
sandwich.
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#07: Oh. I dunno, I...I got some...I got some ...other layers
of this thing that...Well I see one. I got a layer peeled out
here somewhere. It, uh...feels like a thick "space blanket."
Like'e..a..like coated, uh...plastic mylar or something.
Uhhh..I don't know if it's anythin g to do with it or not, but
I...I see a...a black..uh..a black..uh..Wait a minute. I
lost it. I forget what I was gonna say...a black..uh..charcoal-
like consisisitency (phonetic). Like a high density, uh
..it's light, like a high density... Like a high density
...glass foam or something. It's a (mumble) must be...
must be proous 'cause it's light...uh..in weight. But, it's
dark in, uh...color. But, I'm tryin' to get close enough
to see the proosity, but, porosity but... It appears to
have a very tiny, uh...very tiny voids in it. An' they....
they're not all perfectly round like bubbles, I don't know
what it is. Some reason...it has irregular ...uh, void
shapes in it. I don't know why that is. That's uh...that's
apparently below the vas-a-visc-a-(phonetic)...uh, the
sticky stuff, flexible stuff.
#66: So far now, so far, you've talked about metal, you talked
about sticky stuff, you've talked about a space blanket,
and, you've talked about this...other stuff...uhmm...
that's black, but it's light and porous. Before you
continue, put these in their proper order as they appear.
#07: Okay. I...guess I made a mistake, I peeled these damn things
apart. I got 'em spread out here...got to work a
little while t' see how they go back together.
Ibbouter(phonetic), (mumble) three more pieces over there
I didn't separate, uh..seem to be pretty thin. Aah, the
stuff that I said, uh..used the word sticky, I...I
guess I said sticky because it reminded me of...reminded me
of taffy. I guess I mean, uh..stretchy, I guess.
#66: As you deal with the stretchy, sticky stuff that reminds
you of taffy.....
#07: I'm sorry. What'd you say?
#66: As you deal with the stretchy, sticky stuff that reminds you
of taffy, touch it with your hand, and expand your mind, and
ask for a name.
#07: Whoops.....Goddamn, I "zapped" all the way back to the
factory where the stuff was th...sticky stuff was, uh...
I dunno, the (phonetic)...this may be important an' I jus'
dump it, uh.. I don't understand it, but...while I was
looking for , for a name of the stretchy stuff, I saw.....
I saw a shiny steel ball.... pressing the flexible stuff
into a.....stuff that...a light stuff behind it that.....
shattered into tiny pieces....an' the stretchy stuff dimpled
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#07: ....dimpled into the....the....the....material that
jus'...seemed to shatter into a...a million pieces
behind the.... stretchy stuff. But, the ball jus' made a
nice...nice, black hole-dimple.
#66: Okay.
#07: Funny thing is.-that's impossible, but...I looked at a cross-
section of that an' I swear that it looked like, uh...looked
like the...stretchy stuff.... seemed to shrink slightly on
the.... outside, above the ball to where the ball wouldn't
come out, momentarily. Jus' like the...like the shock of
the...stuff that fractured jus' pushed up around it, an' formed
the sticky stuff... stretchy stuff almost around the...the
ball. An' there's some kind a...damn, I dunno...what this
ball's got to do with it...but...I jus' saw that very
clear an' crips an' sharp an' I...thought I'd let you worry
about it.
#66: Okay. Move now to the part that you've described that's
charcoal black, porous, and light.
#07: I think that's a material that jus' fractured all to pieces.
An' kind'a let the stretchy stuff...press into it an'
rearrange its structure. I think it...I think as the dimple
....of the stretchy stuff pressed into it, an'...after
the charcoal stuff had fractured in the vicinity, it...
looks like...the density is greater in this area.
#66: Placing your hand on the part that is........
#07: That Goddamn thing is hot!
#66: All right. Disregarding the heat, disregarding the heat
now, focusing your attention on the charcoal stuff, this
light, porous material, expand your mind and ask for a
name.
#07: Waahno(phonetic)...I was trying tuh...hold on to it...
I kept getting the...the sound of the letter "R" somewhere
in it..... Is a.... I'm sorry, I don't handle names very
well.
#66: All right. Now, let's move through the layers. You said
you have not described to me three layers yet, that you
hadn't peeled them off. Let's move through...........
#07: That was another three layers over here to the left that I.
they were thinner, an' thinner, an'.........
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#66: Okay. Let's start from the beginning, starting with the
metal and move through......
#07: Well. Wait a minute.
#66: Briefly move through.
#07: I've got a...I dunno, I...looks like some kind of a...I
guess about a quarter inch, uh...like some kind's quarter
inch uh, a metal like material. An' there, there was a
brownish-tan, uh...stuff that I peeled off to.......
look at the bond between it, an' the metal stuff. An' it
reminded me of a....I didn't know whether I was looking
at the bonding agent or whether I was looking at a layer
of stuff, here, but.....an' I.....somehow (mumble) myself
examining a...a stretchy... material... an' I thought it
might be...stuff ...the brown stuff, I...I didn't get
that doped out, I'm not sure.
#66: What is the thickness of the sticky material?
#07: I dunno, it mus' be....I keep wantin' to say an inch, but
I think it's a little less than that.
#66: Okay. Continue.
#07: It's a nice, uh...it's a nice, uh...I dunno, it's a ...
(mumble) smooth...it's not like rubber, it's...it, don't
...it don't seem to have snap-back..uh..elasticity like
rubber, it...resistance of its stretching...seems to
increase rapidly with distance stretched, but it doesn't
seem to have memory. It doesn't seem to come back real
fast.
#66: Move now to the next layer.
#07: Layering next to it...it's dark, charcoal, porous light
stuff.
#66: How thick?
#07: (Mumble) I think it's a little over an inch. It's..uh..
I've seen stuff something like this somewhere.
#66: Okay. How does this relate to the.....
#07: Wait a minute. I dunno why, I dunno why....the word...
the damn word ceramic jumped into my head for some reason
very strong .... big white letters, ah...big white letters
with, ah...oh, I know .... a friend of mine handed me a......
block of material from the outside insulation of the...
of a..an..orbit..a device. This stuff reminds me of that
stuff a lot. It's ..uh..like a ceramic.
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#66: Okay.
#07: And, let's see, one, two......
#66: You had mentioned before a space-blanket type thing. Do
you still perceive this?
#07: Yeah. It's ah..whamido? (Phonetic) Wait a minute.
For some reason, I get the feeling. that..uh..I get the
feeling..I'm trying to locate the position of this, uh,
blanket, uh, like thing. It's thicker than a space-
blanket. But...I have a feeling that...its purpose
might be to...very rapidly, reflect, uh..heat, I guess.
I dunno. But..my remaining sandwich, there, is, uh..
all the stuff together must be..'bout an inch, uh.
Having trouble..separating 'em. I'm getting all confused.
'eye's a...there's a...relatilaleeik(phonetic) relatively
thin ...layer a' material behind the charcoal. I, uh..
maybe quarter inch. 'en there's a stack of about three
things I couldn't separate.
#66: Okay. I understand everything you said with the exception
of where is the space-blanket in relation to the others?
#07: Well...It's not on the...it doesn't appear to be on the
bottom as I...would like to say, it's up in the...mess
here somewhere. It is.. .appears to be closer to the
charcoal than it is to the bottom side.
#66: Okay. I am going to...try to...report back that which
you've told me, and you correct me if I...mis-describe that
which you are seeing.
You have a. ...sandwich picture with metal on...one side,
.a bonding. material, a...the metal itself is approximately
three-quarters of an inch thick, than the bonding material.
Then a...sticky variable viscosity material, about an
inch thick. Then a...charcoal black light porous material
about an inch thick. A space blanket like layer. Another
three quarter inch metal like layer, and three other
layers you have not described.
#07: You know. I don't recognize all that. If I may...laying
here on this table is...haha(phonetic) three-quarter inch..
metal. The bonding agent may be a bonding agent or it
may be the sticky, uh, uh, uh...the stretchy stuff. I........
#66: All right.
#07: I couldn't dope that out. I...I'd try an' separate 'em, an'
they....I can't see a dividing line between them, so
it may be the same thing.
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#66: Yes.
#07: Then, there's the...the, brittle charcoal stuff.
#66: Yes.
#07: An' I get a little mixed up here...I see... One time
I see ...a quarter inch thick...stuff. But, I... And I...
the space-blanket thing... feeling could be right here.
It could be just below that.
#66: All right.
#07: I don't remember the...metal thing except...metal seemed
to be part of the last three ...things sandwiched together.
Let's see, that'd be one, two, three... four... three
things like... seven... wait a minute. I seem to be missing
something here somewhere. The transmit...the transition
between the...hum...the stuff behind.. .the charcoal
stretches pretty good, too, you know. I just...went back
to look at a cross-section of that...steel ball...thing.
And, the charcoal's all fractured and...dimpled into the
material below it an' it didn't shatter. I dunno, there's
seven or...seven or eight..uh...seven or eight layers of
whatever this damn stuff is.
#66: What is the overall thickness?
#07: Well...overall thickness?
#66: Umm, hum (affirmative)
#07: I dunno, you can add it up if you want to. I guess. Maybe
a little more'n three inches, I guess. Say, four inches.
I dunno. I don't want to think about adding.
#66: All right. If you put one hand on one side of it, and one
hand on the other, what does it look like between your
hands? Without adding, what does it look like between
your hands?
#07: I can' t see it...that way, but...I've got my...thumb
on one side, and...I'm feeling the other edge with my middle
finger. That's funny, I can't see it, but I'm feeling
it. Trying very hard to keep from ...wrestlin gwith numbers,
but, I have an awareness of... about the thickness of two
telephone directories.
#66: Okay.
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#07: Humm...that don't make sense, uh...how thick is a telephone
directory? Let me see...... All I can say is I got...
my thumb looked around one edge an' I...I'm feeling the
other edge with my...middle finger.
#66: Now, as you look at your device, as you look at this
sandwich device that you have in front of you, describe
the setting in which you see that......
#07: Oh! Hell. I was just sitting here to...everybody's gone.
An' I...I was sitting here, an' I...I guess it's a big,
uh...engineering shop like place, an' I was sitting here at
this work bench, an' first I...saw the dog...dagwood
sandwich in blank space. You wanted me to go back an' look
at it again, an' I saw this metal thing... sandwich... in
space...an' you started asking silly questions about it,
an' I...to answer it I sat down at this...work bench on a
stool, an'...started takin' it apart...piece by piece, an'
laying it out on a table. I don't know how I got it apart,
but, I can see tear lines... It's...I got it apart. Feeling
real life.... I mean...I think I willed it apart. I didn't
just take it in my bear fingers, and pull it. apart. It'd
come...it'd just tear all to hell if you did. You couldn't
do it. You couldn't delaminate it...without losing it.
But, I did. I just wanted to see it, an' it was laying
out on the table in front of me. I don't know how it got
there...in pieces, except, uh...except, ah those last three
...those three. The setting is..uh..some kind of shop, and
I'm sitting at this ... workbench. Parts of a...armor
vehicle's over there behind me. There's a big hangar-like
door over there, that looks like it comes up and down. An'
it's cold in here.
#66: Okay.
#07: I don't know what else to tell you.
#66: Thinking of the sandwich itself, thinking of the sandwich
itself, I want you to expand your awareness in all directions,
in all directions. Expand your awareness now in all
directions beyond this target, and ask yourself, "Is
there a device which will defeat or penetrate this sandwich?"
Is there a device which will defeat or penetrate this sandwich?
PAUSE
#66: Feel free to go wherever it's necessary to obtain this.........
#07: Defeat it, uh....
#66: ....information.
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#07:
You say this is some kind of barrier. Right?
it must mean a barrier.
Defeat
#66:
Simply ask yourself the question, "Is there a device which
will defeat or penetrate."
#07:
Oh,
it's
with
yeah, you can defeat it. Let me look an' see
.... You oughta have trouble.... gonna have
that, uh...taffy, uh...'cause it's molecular
if
trouble
structure
changes where it...hangs on, an' you gotta drag the damn
stuff through. with you. But...you use one of them big shells
over there; even the shaped charge won't do it. It, uh...
surface area is too great. You wanta get through this thing
...the... extremely high density.. .high density.. .high density.
Small, small cross-section...so....so, that... inertia with...
inertia with.. .inertia. . .inertia with, uh, small ...small ...
cross-sections...generate tremendous amount of...'sere's
(phonetic) a tremendous amount of...heat an' energy. Very
small area. But, such a device ..cannot..cannot..cannot be
explosive-must be extremely dense.. and have it's mass..
concentrated in..concentrated, uh..linearity so that density
increases with, uh..density increases with deceleration.
An effect of..effects of..effect of..'ere(phonetic) the effect
of..extreme escalation of density..an' dissipated energy.
Something.... I don't know what the hell I'm sayin'.
#66: Does this device exist now?
#07: I.......
#66: ....Present time. Does this exa...device exist now?
#07: Same..same..I'm all mixed up here. I dunno what the hell I
am.
#66: Report.
#07: Wait a minute. I..I lost my position on the..stool here, an'
I'm up in the air here, upside down.
#66: Go through space. Search for the device that you've been
describing. Does this device exist now? Present time.
#07: Research, uh..research is ben' ...conducted. I don't...
I have a feeling that..the people who..made the sandwich..
is also aware of..counter..countermeasure. Get the feeling
that-they are supporting people..who are..developing counter-
measure. I been tryin' to figure out..vwe(phonetic) got
this..stretchy, sticky stuff. I don't know who it is. I,
uh..it's like-it's like-like, uh..I dunno. It reminds me
of something silly. Like tryin' to beat your way out of a
marshmallow room, you know. You just beat the hell out of
it, an' you can see where you hit it, but, it don't do any
good; you can't get through it.
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#66: All right.
#07: 'less you.....
#66: I understand that the problem to this..sandwich is the sticky
stuff. I understand that completely.
(ADMIN NOTE: Tape changed)
#66: All right. This sticky, stretchy stuff which changes is the
problem...is the big factor in this sandwich now.....
#07: I don't think it's a problem. I think it's....I think it...
I think it might be part of the...I guess the word solution,
uh...
#66: It's what makes the sandwich work.
#07: Yeah. But, it wouldn't work by itself.
#66: All right.
#07: If it didn't have that crumbly stuff behind it, it would..it
would get to the point of no return, an'.., an' give way.
I guess, I dunno.
#66: All right. Now, we have examined the device which could
defeat or penetrate the sandwich. We have disam...examined the
possibilities, and the research for such a device. Now expand,
once again expand your awareness, once again. Is this
research...and this device...
#07: (Hiccup.)
+90 #66: Whose research is this? Whose sandwich device is this?
Whose sandwich is this?
#07: Uh, (mumble) Hell! I never asked myself any of that. I
jus'..I just went somewhere out in space, uh(phonetic) saw
some imagery somewhere. But, I'm aware of..three different
factions..doing..getting great..great breakthroughs in..
this-this thing.. It's three different..' I see four different
peoples-pursuing this actively, but..three of them seem to
be doing..pretty good, but..s-slightly different. That's
funny. I get the feeling that, uh..I get a..contradictory
feeling..that..thing that's gonna go through this is..very
small, and blunt ended.
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#07: I woulda thought it'd been like a spear, but I..I see..I'm
now looking at a..looking at the end of a broom handle, which
I think is representative..of..of a..device that will..defeat
this.
#66: All right. The sandwich itself, who owns the sandwich?
Whose sandwich is this?
#07: I dunno, I..it felt so good to go after pure science without
getting political that I..didn't even..didn't even look.
Lemme get out here an' see if I can figure out where I am.
Ah, there's one way of doin' it. That's funny, I..I get the
feeling that it's U-S, a funny awareness that it's U-S, but
the fact that I..sittin' here lookin' around..I don't see
anybody-tells me that..must be..after working hours, uh..
in some other part of the world. Possibly Soviet Union.
That's a sort of a, uh, uh, uh logic cut on the thing.
#66: Only because you don't see anybody around?
#07: I don't see anybody around here.
#66: All right. You say the sandwich device, you have the feeling
that it's U-S.
#07: I just have a fleeting..gnawing thing in..left side of my
head that said, uh..U-S, or..no, it didn't say U-S, it said
ours.
#66: All right. Who owns the broomstick?
#07: We do.
#66: All right.
#07: But, there's somebody else, uh..an' it's not a secret.
We're not the only ones...playing with a mop handle.
#66: All right. Do the Russians own the broomstick? Do they
have a broomstick, too?
#07: Yeah. But, it's ah..this is weird as hell. But, when you
said that, I saw..I saw..a long broomstick that was just
goin' like a bat out of hell, an' then when it hit this big
thing hangin' out in a field, this big plate hangin' down, it..
on impact it, uh..got another kick in the ass..an'..charge
went off, uh..direetional that give it another kick, uh. And,
the thing, uh..that's weird. The thing fired at a..extremely
high speed, an'..as soon as it hit, uh..this thing hanging
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#07: down in the field, it, uh..it, uh..like it..set off
another charge. It..it kicked it in the..direction of the..
the sandwich. Damn, it went right through jus' like uh...
went right through. Oh, and funny thing about is uh, it
didn't seem to blow a big jagged hole like you'd expect a
shell to do. It..just like a hot rod, a hot, a very hot rod,
just melted through the thing. But, it's so fast you couldn't
see it. You couldn't see it melting;it jus'...like, uh..
like, uh..stickin' a hot wire in butter, it jus' "pssssst',
an' it just kept going across the field there.
#66: This penetration that you've seen....
#07: Yeah. But, it didn't blow up.
#66: ....describe the area surrounding this.
#07: I dunno. It's just a big, flat, dirt field here.
#66: Fifty thousand feet.
#07: Oh, yeah. There's..over there..over there..way over there....
there's a big berm.......
#66: Fifty thousand feet. Look down from fifty thousand feet.
Where is this?
#07: I'm, uh..I..I getz(phonetic) Moscow over there. I be, uh..
somewhere to the..southeast. Think that's right. Looks
like...yeah, (mumble) southeast of..uh..Moscow. Uh, southeast
of a big city, an' there app.... there appears to be a big
river, uh..let's see that'd be..running diagonally from the....
well, it's alined, uh..from the upper left to the lower
right. It..from the northwest.
#66: All right. Let's move back now on the ground again where you
saw the broomstick go through the thing hanging. Stand right
there on the ground,and move up very slowly. We want to be
very sure where this location is. So, stand on the ground
where you actually saw this happen, and then move up very
slowly and maintain your continuity so that we're certain
were this is. Move very slowly now.
#07: Well, I'm having trouble here. This thing hanging looks
like a...a big...slab of middlin' meat (phonetic)...I mean...
it looked like a..a side 'a pork hangin' there, you know...
lean and fat meat layered. Jus' a minute I gotta..I gotta get
rid of that. Okay. I'm going up. I.-I'm up..three hundred
feet up..What'm I lookin' for, I forgot.
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#66: I want you to describe this location from fifty thousand feet.
#07: That's a firing range... It looks like a firing range
that's, uh..I thought at first it was..lying in a north-
westerly direction, but I...I flashed back down to the ground
an' I feel it's, ah..East, an', uh..down range is in a ...
westerly direction. Ah...There appears to be a river here;
a big city up there.
#66: Move to a hundred thousand feet.
#07: I lost it. I lost it. I'm north of the....wait a minute...
little better than halfway...up in a northerly direction...
little more than halfway between the equator and the pole.
#66: What continent?
#07: I'm trying to figure that out. There's a big...it's like
looking through a lot of how(phonetic) clouds and haze.
But, I get...
#66: Simply make the clouds go away.
#07: I didn't think of that. I'm aware of a big lake here,
somewhere, below, and to the right over there. I dunno. I
guess I'm awfully tired. I'm just having....it comes and goes,
and when it comes back it don't look exactly the same, and I've
got to figure out if it connects.
PAUSE
#66: Are you on the coastline or the interior?
#07: Oh. It's interior somewhere.
#66: All right. I have one last question. Previously, you had
talked about three factions and four parties that were
working on the...
#07: Well, I think tha... I'm sorry. Go ahead with your question.
#66: You had talked about three. Do you have an answer for
(mumble) now? Do you have a location that you'd like to
report?
#07: No. I was trying to... trying to think what your question is.
#66: Okay. You had....when you were talking about a device which
would defeat or penetrate this sandwich, you talked about
three factions, and four parties that were working on this
situation.
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#07: What about it?
#66: I'd like to know the raw data that made you say that.
#07: I don't know what question I was asking myself, but...I saw
four distinct, separate location inside. Uh... engineering type
laboratories. Ah..and I asked myself if I was seeing multiple
views of the same place, and...my awareness said that they were
separate. Then, I was then aware of asking myself if.....
same country would ..... have multiple labs approaching the
same problem, and my awareness said no........
#66: All right.
#07: It was three different places. I...I had the feeling...
this is very, very raw vague...raw. I didn't pursue it.
I thought England was one, France was another, Soviet Union
and the U-S. For some reason, I started to ask myself,
"Who is having the least success?" and, I thought it was
France. That's just...raw garbage that I was sidelining
there, and I didn't get a chance to really concentrate
on it. But, ah..think that was, ah..that that was the gist
of the raw, the raw impressions.
#66: All right. Thank you. Now, in a moment I'm going to be
asking you to draw the sandwich that you saw...
#07: Oh God! I mean...
#66: Is there anything you'd like to add before drawing?
#07: I'm so confused with all the things I've been looking at that
I can't remember what the heck I got to draw.
#66: All right. I'll be able to refresh your recollection with
the notes I've been taking. Is there anything you'd like
to say before we draw?
#07: I just...you're really going to have to help me because
there, for a part of it, I...I can't remember what I was
doing. I think I've got a feeling for what this thing is
now.
#66: All right.
#07: I don't know whether it's a question you asked or what this
thing developed into, but this is a..I saw the raw data.
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#07: Okay. When you said something there I saw the Germans in
World War II putting reinforced concrete on the glacis plates
of their tanks. Building up a layer or two. It give-them
a chance against our shells. So, I found myself wondering
if this wasn't a modern version of the same thing. Some
kind of stuff you put over armor to help it-help it
do its job. I guess. Some kind of, some kind of protective
armor. Just an impression. I would have thought some kind
of, some kind of graphite fibrous steel would have been the
way to go, but,....Well I'll be damned! I just saw a.....
I just saw a police, ah...bullet proof, bullet proof vest.
#66: Can you now name the object in the photograph in the sealed
envelope?
#07: I forgot what we're going after, but....see any connection
between this police vest, we're looking at some kind of.....
some type of projectile stopper of some kind. Okay. I'm
seeing a tank indoors, tube pointed aft, kind of...that's
funny...oh, the sides of this tank, don't appear to be
like big, fat castings... They-appear to be...flat slabs..
that only change direction at a abrupt angle rather than the
full compound curve as a casting. This tank is like if you
took real thick sheets of plywood, and sawed out the component
parts and glued them together at angles-rather than a
smooth, graceful curve.
#66: Do you recognize this?
#07: Just now, I thought that-an the way it approached me was
(mumble) damn that looks an awful like an XM-l. But, there's
no reason why somebody else couldn't build something like an
XM-1, too...also. But, ah..and I found myself... looking at the
XM-l going...going like a bat out of hell across the Arizona
desert. I think that was just...that could be just......
spurious imagery.
#66: Okay.
#07: Noise of some kind.
#66: Do you have any other comments now before we draw?
#07; Naw, I don't think so, except that I'm awful tired.
#66: Okay. Return your awareness now to me in the room. Move
your arms, move your legs, take a deep...deep breath several
times, and let's prepare to draw.
(Admin Note: Tape off)
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#31: Hit it. Okay. I will, ah..I will give you a quick review of
the first part of the session. You had a...for your
continuities, for your continuities' sake, you had a spot-
light, a grid, feeling of city streets.
#07: Spotlight?
#31: Spotlight, grid, feeling of city streets, close up of a
building. Deep tubular shape, long arch...then little
later on you had long archway; stanchions, columns, lots of
posts...words like "the post would hold up a heavy load",
okay. Then you had closeup of a cone...a hollow cone shape
which you took to be the exhaust nozzle of some type of
propulsion.
#07: Umm (affirmative) I remember that.
#31: Ah...at that point, it seems, my notes say you thought of
tanks, but something to do with the closeup of the shape,
you sort of felt that it was more rocket-like. Then, you
were focused on some sort of an object, and you said, "is a
bright hot spot under the front glacis to the right of center
...eighteen to twenty inches in from the bow, inside." Okay.
You were asked if you recognized...no....you were asked to
describe it. You couldn't see it all, you were directed to
move over to it closer. You had tracks, big tube on its
back kind of raised; something on the front like where the
driver sits, about twenty-five feet long. You don't think
it was a rocket; thick skirting below the tube on the vehicle
carrier. The skirting goes over part of the wheels/track, ah
...wheels slash track...
#07: Aha (affirmative)
#31: Closeup of the plating appeared to taper underneath. Clear,
distinct image of real heavy black wheels; rubber wheeled
armor type thing with tube on top. If not, if not for wheels,
it would have a crude landing craft shape. Heavy tires in
front. Some kind of tires which I did not catch; we'll have
to look at the transcript. Some kind of tires behind. It
was longer than you thought. Okay? What I would like you
to do for sketch one is to draw your perceptions, this
composite perceptions of your perception of the... object...
that you were describing at that time.
#07: Composite of the object?
#31: Aha (affirmative) Tha..as you perceived the thing with the
wheels that was roughly landing craft shape.
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#07: Yeah. Okay. I'll try an...sometimes it's hard for me to
visualize shape on a piece of paper, so, I'll try an' rough
this in with regular pencil, and then fill it in with...ah...
#31: Well, if you don't feel.....
#07: .....with ink.
#31: a composite would be justifiable, then, go ahead and draw
the various shapes individually as...as the session.
#07: Aha (affirmative) Okay.
PAUSE
#07: I guess I should talk while I'm doing this, but I'm trying
to visualize.
#31: That's okay.
#07: It, it, it's ...the thing reminded me of a...if you took
flat sheets of cardboard, and.just cut out sections triangles
and what have you, and, and glued them together at the edges,
rather than having... rather than having, ah, compound curves.
It was...multiple wheeled at the back, and this thing had
a...the widest part was just about the equi.... halfway up the
side of the vehicle. It appeared to slope inward below
that line, and inward above that line. I can't remember what
the, the back end of it looked like, but it seemed like there
was a lot of parallelogram and....triangular shapes in this
thing. And, there sin(phonetic)be tubes and things on the
outside of the thing. I can't remember the exact position of
them, but, seemed like a great big hollow tube that....I
felt a rocket or a missile might of...maybe was supposed to go
inside of it or something. I, I didn't see a sharp nose or
anything like that.
#07: Something wrong with the cab of this critter. Looks too
much like a sports car, but'Iremember there was a lot of
slope to it, and there was some slits on it. I dunno,
something like that, but, the whole thing seemed like it
was put together with...like, cardboard cutouts.
#31: Okay. All right. That's sketch one.
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#07: It's as though the sides were of a material that could not be
stamped into a curve, like in building trucks or things like
that.
#31: Okay. All right.
#07: Ummhumm(affirma,tive)
#31: Umm. Associated with this at sketch one, I'll continue with
my notes now....
#07: Aha, aha, aha (affirmative)
#31: ...to bring the tracking through. You were asked to examine
the plates which you had been talking about which are on
the vehicle sketch one.
#07: The plates on the vehicle?
#31: The plates. You said they were welded at least outside.....
#07: Oh, yeah, yeah.
#31: ....about one and a quarter inch weld...wide.
#07: What it is...there's a little flat seam between the two.
They come up at an angle. Lemme draw that. You want me to
draw that?
#31: Okay.
#07: It's almost like a...an' there was a...I'm talking about
this. There's a flat right there between the two...flat
surfaces.
#31: Aha, aha (affirmative)
#07: It was a kind of a little flat about an inch wide itself.
#31: 'kay.
#07: Like a...a weld was in there or a glue was in there or
something like that. I don't know why I said glue, but it was
...it was like that. Like you was...take two plants an'
put 'em edge to edge, and then bend 'em ov...from the hori...
flat surface n' then fill that edge with something, is what
it looked like.
'kay. Now....
#07: I'll label these plates.
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#31: ...You said that you can't see any curved plates on this
thing.
#07: Weld ... or ... filler.
#31: And..just hold on tb that because I think we may have to
go....describe the...you were directed the substance of
construction of the plates.
#07: Ummhummm (affirmative)
#31: You, uh, said it looks like on the right mid-section below
the halfway point kind of curved beneath the tires, uh...
goes underneath about three quarter of an inch thick. The
top part underneath the tube is a little thinner than the
plate on the bottom side, 'kay, we're talking about sketch
one again.
#07: Are the, the, the one flat, horizontal along the top.
#31: Okay.
#07: Yeah.
#31: That's the one that was a little thinner.
#07: Ummhumm(affirmative)
#31: Then, umm, okay, you were directed to examine some of the
previous imagery like the cone shape. You mentioned that
you only got a real closeup.
#07: Ummhumm(affirmative)
#31: I remember seeing a...kind of a...cone shape that looked
almost like a deep parabolic, very deep parabolic, uh..
reflector, that had, uh, and I'm talking about one deep,
uh..maybe twice as deep as it is wide across the open
part. There appeared to be pipes outside.
#31: Okay.
#07: Like a shaped..uh..nozzle.
#31: Why don't you split that one in half, there, sketch two,
and give me that on a.....
#07: Two, let's call this two-A...
#31: Okay.
#07: And two-B.
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#31: You felt that that was the business end of a big rocket
with tubes leading to it.
#07: Uh, hum. (affirmative)
#31: And, um, you felt that it was not a solid propellant. When
asked how big, you. said twenty-five to thirty inches was
the outsi....biggest outside diameter.
#07: Back at the base of the thing were some shapes I can't
remember, but I remember seeing these tubes back there, I...
running from around the nozzle, and I thought it was a
nozzle, I don't know.
#31: Yeah, and it had what you referred to as plumbing or tubes
around the outside.
#07: I put a note here: conical shape thought to be rocket
nozzle. That's what I felt.
#31: Aha, aha (affirmative)
#07: I don't know whether I said it or not, but 'ats what I
thought.
#31: Okay. All right. Now, umm...at this point in the session,
#66 reviewed essentially the three items of imagery which
you had previously provided; the feeling of tanks over on.......
I believe it was the left side, the feeling of this landing
craft; nozzle. Landing craft, rather with a tube on it,
and then this nozzle type shape at this point in the session,
you happened to mention all you could see was a sandwich, and
that you weren't hungry, so, you were going to try again.
The next note I have is that you see a shell, a projectile...
Oh, I'm sorry.#66 reviewed the stuff, the imagery, and "ask
yourself the meaning of the imagery in relation to the target
object," at that point, the sandwich, you were going to try
again, and you say you see a shell projectile partly into
some black material.... interest in penetrability of a certain
type of projectile...concern with the resistance of the
material. #66 directed you to return to the imagery of the
dagwood, and ask yourself what was the significance of that
picture; the dagwood sandwich
#07: Ummhumm (affirmative)
#31: At that point you didn't get a sandwich, but you got a six
inch square by approximately three inch thick thing looking
like a cutting away a section of a layered cookie. Different
kinds of layers of goodies inside were your words.
#07: Humm.
#31: And, then, boom, you said that the first thing, it was
metal on top;apparently, on one side of it you said it was
metal. Now, in this sketch, I'm going to ask you to...we'll
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#07: Oh! Wow! I hope I can...
#31: ...cookie slash sandwich...
#07: Okay. I thought you wanted a tank. So, I...
#31: ...feeling.
#07: Let me wipe this out here. I was going to draw tanks.
Okay.
#31: Now, while you're starting that, I'll go through my notes.
#07: You want.....you want the dagwood sandwich?
#31: Yes. The object which resembled the dagwood sandwich
or the cookie....
#07: Okay. I ....
#31: ....with the goodies inside.
#07: Oh. Okay.
#31: You had no paint. You had bonded, and it was rough. You
pulled it apart or mentally separated it. Just under the
plate is a kind of brownish-tannish funny layer of bonding
or something. Then, I believe talking about the layer
beneath the bonding or tannish-brownish bonding thing, I
believe you then talked about a...a dark charcoal like...
uh, but very light layering of material.
#07: Wait. I'll have to catch up with, with that. I...
#31: Okay.
#07: For some reason, when I looked at this thing it was above
me in space. Uhmmm..
#31: Can you qualify that statement?
#07: What statement?
#31: It being above you in sp....
#07: Oh! Ah ah For some reason, I don't know why, I felt
that I.was prone, flat on my back, and I'm looking around,
and everything's blank, and I can't see anything, and 't. was
(phonetic) when he asked some question, whatever it was,
everything went blank on me, and the only thing that came was
a dagwood sandwich, and this disturbed me, and aggravated
me because it was....to me obviously, had nothing to do with
the target, and I wasn't hungry. And, I dunno wh....I don't
know how I got there, but right after that...I saw a six
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#07: inch square sandwich about three inches thick that was
also above me, and kind'a away so I could see two edges
and ah..like...this...
(Admin Note: Tape change)
#07: Is it going yet?
#31: Yeah. It's probably going now.
#07: You got it turned over.
#31: Yeah. I got it turned over. It's on side B now for this
tape.
#07: Umm. Okay. At this point, I was still aggravated with
myself 'cause I was seeing.... shapes of the dagwood sandwich
...and I, I guess I must have been asked a question about
this..uh..this layer cake like thing.
#31: No. You were asked to ask yourself what the significance
of that imagery was.
#07: Oh. Okay. Well, anyway, in trying to look at these separate
layers my eyes was flickering between 'em. I was having
trouble holding vision on either one of them, I found that I
had somehow or another separated them, and they were laid out
on a, a bench top, and I was sitting there examining them,
and I remember looking at the detail such as...the bond between
the top layer of metal, and whatever was underneath. Aha...
like...like a bond that has given away...you can see it
attach here(phonetic) to it when it's pulled away. I remember
toying with that, and...I'm gonna have to draw these separate
but kind'a in the position I remember seeing them. There
was a square of metal that...I don't know, half three-quarter
inch thick, something... It was rather, umm strange
looking metal. Almost like it had, ah, had a gray to it
like it....might of had zinc or something in it. I'm not
suggesting it had zinc, but it had a gray like that. Uhl
one half to three-quarter metal. There was a thinner layer
underneath, and I kind's got lost and mixed up there. I
didn't know whether there was a bonding agent between this
stretchy stuff or whether the stretchy stuff, when I first
looked at it, was what I identified as a bonding agent.
They may be one and the same. I...I went back and tried to
count, and I, I don't know what happened there. But, the
next thing I'm listing is the, uh...stretchy sticky stuff.
#31: Okay. Now, I'd like to interrupt you here for a while, and
get some words from you.
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#07: How do you spell stretchy?
#31: Umm s-t-r-e-t-c-h-y, I guess.
#07: Yeah. That's what I got, stretchy, sticky...slash sticky.
#31: Now, you describe this as elastic stuff,. with elasticity,
like taffy. Tough, but doesn't shatter;it stretches.
Suddenly, you said: "viscosity increases with inertia",
then you thought about that a little bit, and you said
that that don't make much sense.
#07: Well, it sure don't now, either.
#31: Okay.
#07: Viscosity increases with what?
#31: Inertia. Okay. Well, if you don't....
#07: Well, it, it, it, okay, I wouldn't touch that with a ten
foot pole.
#31: And, you con...you were directed to continue, and you were
trying to figure out...you said trying to figure out about
the taffy increasing, and I believe you meant increasing its...
um, elasticity under certain conditions. You were.......
#07: I thought decreased, uh..I thought it..I thought it's, I
thought t's...what's the words I want...I thought its elasticity,
rate of stretch, decreased with, uh, the distance it moved
and the speed that it moved. If you stretched it very fast,
that its resistance to stretch would increase at a certain
rate, and I found myself toying with, uh, some kind of
mathematical curve as a rate that it...decelerates or...
stretches.or..its elasticity decreases, not increases is what
uh, is what I remember, but....
#31: Okay.
#07: I remember that feeling.
#31: Okay.
#07: That it...
#31: That may be an error in my notes, you know, I'ss..monitoring.
#07: The faster you stretched it, the faster it...resisted;
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#31: Okay.
#07: And, the resistance built up with speed.
#31: Okay.
#07: That's the way I felt about it, but I'm not sure I
understand that. There wa...oh, underneath that was a,
yeah, okay, underneath that was a...little bit thicker char-
coal like material, brittle and crumbly, but light and
porous, as I remember.
#31: Um hum (affirmative). It had irregular... let me remember
your words......
#07: Merifelike(phonetic).
#31: ...could see fractures, brittle stuff. Having high
density, but then you said it's light.
#07: Humm
#31: Glass foam or something; must be porous because light....
#07: That's contradictory, you know. How...how, okay, if I
said it.
#31: ....something must be porous because light in weight, but,
dark in color. Appears very tiny voids in it, not all
perfectly round like bubbles, irregular void shapes in it.
And, you said that it was below the sticky stuff. The
flexible stuff.
#07: I don't know whether that sticky word has any meaning or not.
Where I was....since I was relating it to taffy, I think,
#07: ...whether I got the stickiness from the taffy or whether
I really thought it was sticky. I just don't have a feel
for that. I've written ya..brittle foam like material, and
I remember sometime, somewhere in the session trying to
figure out why I said foam like, and I remembered having been
shown a block of insulating material for the space shuttle.
#31: Okay.
#07: And, I. thought this stuff reminded me of that kind of stuff,
and, the word...some word came to me...ceramic.
#31: Um humm(affirmative)
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#07: Ceramic. I'm going to write ceramic question mark. I
don't know.
#31: Okay.
#07: Okay.
#31: Okay.
#07: Now, let me see. Wasn't there some kind of unknown something
or another that, oh, no, wait a minute. There was another
material under the brittle foam, I felt that also stretched.
#31: Yes. That's later on.
#07: Okay.
#31: Okay. I wanted to.....
#07: Okay.
#31: ...ask a couple more questions....
#07: Okay.
#31: ....about this charcoal like thing.....
#07: Oh, yeah.
#31: ....going into the sandwich thing in order to bring this
back into context of the charcoal. Uh, you mat...you referred
to it as material that fractured, and let this stretchy stuff
press into it and rearraged or rearrange its structure, and
then you said density greater in this area, but, this is in
the context of the ball coming and hitting the sandwich.
'kay.
#07: Density what greater in the foam stuff?
#31: That's what I'm asking you.
#07: Just a minute.
#31: The density greater in this area, and you were referring, you
had been directed to talk about the charcoal porous...
#07: Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah, the stuff all, you know, crumbled and
got into finer, finer particles at the center of impact, and
the particulate matter seemed to get closer and closer together.
And the farther out from that point of impact you get the
greater, as I see it now, the greater the porosity.
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#31: Okay. All right. Now, I'll review for you the, um...the
imagery you had regarding the shiny steel ball pressing...
#07: Humm. Okay. I don't have this sandwich finished yet. But,
okay, get's...let's do it.
#31: Well, it may help us go on. I wanted to remind you.....
#07: Okay.
#31: ..uh, it of you now 'cause this is about where it came in
the...
#07: Okay.
#31: Okay. You had ball, the steel ball was pressing stuff like
light stuff behind it, stretchy stuff dimpled into the
material, the stretchy stuff dimpled into the material which
seemed to shatter into a million pieces. But, the ball made
a nice black hole, a dimple. You looked at a cross-section,
and it appeared that the stretchy stuff fell around the ball
or moved around the ball. I, ma...fell is my word because I
was scribbling very rapidly here. The stretchy stuff came
around the ball, so the ball couldn't come out momen...fo...
for a moment; momentarily is your word.
#31: The ball couldn't come out momentarily.
#07: Yeah. I can see that now.
#31: Okay. Anyway, you can go along with this...
#07: Did you want that...that ball thing?
#31: We'll do that in a...
#07: Okay.
#31: ...in another quick sketch, we'll go on with the layering.
#07: There was something below...there was something below the
foam like material that was fairly, was relatively thin,
but also stretched. An' I seem to remember getting the
color of tannish-browns or something.Was that.....
#31: I'm looking through my notes here.
#07: I seem to remember this was a flexible brown or tan.
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#31: Okay. Here you are, at what would be sixty-three minutes
into the session, I guess... No, not that long. Anyway,
my note says ten-eighteen. Relatively thin material behind
the charcoal. The others are thin and can't be separated.
#07: Yeah. I remember the three was below this section. One,
two, three. What we got here? One, two, three, four....
six; that's seven. There's another something somewhere..
I had trouble pinning down.
#31: You said......
#07: Oh! Yeah. It must have been that mylar like stuff.
#31: Okay. Here we are: stuff behind charcoal stretches pretty
good, too, you know. Charcoal dimpled into the stuff below
it, and it didn't shatter.
#07: Huh?
#31: And, I think, that's where you were referring to...the
thin mylar.
#07: Okay. Uh...let me get this. Below this point, I'm.....
having a little trouble with ...this is where the three-sandwich
thing was. This was the one I couldn't separate, and I was
trying to pinpoint the position of a...aluminized plastic-
like material. I don't remember if it was in the sandwich of
three or whether it was....it was below the charcoal...below
the foam-like material, and it was before...the bottom.layer.
Uh... I really don't know where it was in there. I remember
pla..... Did I ever establish where it was?
#31: Are you referring to the thing now that you s..you spoke of
as the space blanket?
#07: Yeah.
#31: Okay. No. You..you had difficulty locating that in the
overall...
#07: Let me just put a note here space blanket somewhere in
this area.
#31: Okay.
#07: Space blanket, eh..humm.
#31: All right. Is the space blanket thing...that which dimples
also behind the charcoal?
#07: Oh! Okay. You just sprung something. I felt that the space
blanket thing was below the second layer of stretchy material.
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#31: Okay.
#07: Okay. Now, let me go through the...the stuff. Now, I'm locking
onto it. I can see it. There's the-the steel like material,
the stretchy material, the foam-charcoal like material, another
stretchy..area..and, at one point, I remember thinking, well,
gee, this space blanket thing is right below this, and I
was getting, something about.... reflecting heat energy
something. I......
#31: Yes.
#07: I remember...
#31: You associated...
#07: ...and that was somewhere...
#31: ...that with the space blanket thing
#07: ...and, that was somewhere. I thought below the second
flexible material.
#31: Okay. Fine.
#07: Okay. So, okay, uh, I'm changing this. I got this thing to
.....it says space blanket somewhere within this area, and
I've got it including the second stretchy material. So,
I'm going to change that to show below that. I'm putting a
zigzaggy line over it to wipe that line out, okay?
#31: Um humm (affirmative)
#07: I'm going to put delete on that portion. Okay, okay. Got it.
Three layer, three layer undescribable material. I don't
think I described it. Did I?
#07: ...the three layers...
#31: ...difficulty separating the....
#07: ...I couldn't separate?
#31: Final three layers...
#07: Yeah, okay.
#31: Okay. Hey that's...
#07: That's about what I got there.
#31: All right. Let me take a look at it there.
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#07: Now, these things were laying out on a table. I've attached
them up...in the order they...I felt they were... This
seems different than something I did a month or so ago.
#31: Well, I was going to ask you, us...regarding that during this
debrief. It was much longer than a month ago. It was about
three months ago. Uh...there was, a...you received tasking
and did a similar function that is in analyzing.
#07: Oh. This is the cutaway of that mockup thing.
#31: Okay. Those are familiar words to me. Is...regarding what
came out of that session, and an admin note will be made
somewhere through here as to what session we're talking
about. You just mentioned, now, that this was different than
that.
#07: Yeah. It...if my memory serves me rig...right, it ...this
is different.
#31: Okay. In, in..what are your gut feelings regarding the
differences. I mean are they abstract differences or are
they very s...significant, material differences.
#07: I'm not working from memory, 'cause I.don't remember how the
other stuff was, was together.
#31: Well, we can let that sit.....
Yeah, I....
#31: ....during the course of the debriefing.
#07: I just have a, I just have a, a feeling that, uh, I have a
feeling that this is intentionally different.
#31: Okay.
#07: Not a mistake, but a difference.
#31: Okay.
#07: I dunno.
#31: I'll ask you some more questions when we're done with the
sketching, then.
#07: Okay. Item four (mumbling)....
#31: Well, I would like to come back to three, here.
#07: Okay.
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#31: ..uh..you have the one half to three quarter metal on the top
of the stack.
#31: Through the session you did discuss other thickness that
you perceived, okay, and I'd like you to.....
#07: Oh, Lord, I....
#31: Okay. Well, I can recall them.
#07: You'd like me to put them down, huh?
#31: Yeah. I'd like you to put them down in your hand. I'll
recall them here on my notes those that I was able to catch
and write down.
#07: What about the s.ticky...second layer of sticky material?
#31: I'm looking at that right now. I'm looking for it. I
believe there is a reference in here.
#07: Or the first sticky layer, I guess or stretchy layer.
#31: We worked it over so much, it's,the various data is
scattered throughout my notes in different places.
#07: Would you like me to shut this off until you catch up in your
notes?
#31: No.
#07: Save tape?
#31: No, that's fine.
#07: Okay.
#31: I'll be...okay, at one point, you were...right after the
incident with the heat...the hotness that you perceived.
#07: Yeah l
#31: Umm. You were asked to expand awareness and try to come up
with some name or word for the thing, and you couldn't. Umm.
.Then you mentioned there's this other three layers over here
on...on the left. They were thinner, and you spoke about a
quarter inch metal-like material brownish-tan bonding that
you had peeled off; that was a quarter inch metal like material....
#31: Humm..
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#07: ....brownish-tan bonding. There's one. Gonna have to put
this on the tape, 'cause I...
#31: Okay. Here you are...
#07: I'm so mixed up, I can't...
#31: At thirteen minutes after ten o'clock. How thick? Was my
interjection to #66. #66 asked you, "What is the thickness?"
And, we were referring to the sticky material at that time.
#07: Um hum...
#31: You said a little less than an inch, nice, smooth, not like
rubber, doesn't have "snap-back" elasticity like rubber;
doesn't seem to have...and you used a very interesting ward,
there, do you recall the word you used? You used the word
"memory," It doesn't come back real fast.
#07: Lord. I don't know.
#31: Okay. So, that was a feeling of a little less than an inch.
#07: What'd I say, it had memory or it had no memory? It had
no memory?
#31: That it had no memory. It doesn't s... you didn't say it
didn't have; you said it doesn't seem to have memory.
#07: Ummm.
#31: It doesn't come back real fast.
#07: Less than an inch thick.
#31: Yeah. A little less than an inch thick. Okay. Now,....
#07: Little less than an inch thick...I made a note of that.
#31: Okay. Now, when you were ab...again, from the notes, when
you were referring to the...black charcoal like thing...
just before, you said the word "ceramic" jumped into your head....
#07: Um hum...
#31: ...in big white letters
#07: I've made a note of that on here.
#31: Just before that......
#07: Oh!
#31: ...you had, in response to a question of "How thick?" you had
a little over an inch.
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#07: A little over an inch. Should I write that down?
#31: Yes, please.
#07: Okay. I've made a note of that.
#31: Okay. Then, that's when you felt that it was similar to
the material you had been shown on the outside of the
orbital device.
#07: Yeah. Uh...yeah, which was the space shuttle. Uh, space
shuttle brick, whatever.
#31: And, we discussed, we returned to the space blanket idea.
Ah...you were asked if you till perceived this because
there was some question as to where it was in the order of
things. You said that the purpose might be to rapidly
reflect heat.
#07: Humm.
#31: And, that the remaining sandwich all together must be about
an inch.
#07: Oh. That's the remaining three; the remaining three layers
was about an inch.
#31: Okay.
#07: Okay.
#31: And, those were the three which were thin and couldn't be
separated. Am I right?
#07: I wasn't able to separate them.
#31: Okay.
#07: Okay. I've made a note that the last, uh, combined three
layers about an inch thick. I assume that this second
stretchy layer was probably, uh, probably similar to the first
stretchy layer. I dunno.
#31: Okay. Now, another entry here on my notes is...that metal
is part of the last three,comma, maybe the space blanket,
too; meaning maybe the space blanket is part of the last three.
#07: Um humm(affirmative)
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#31: Okay. Well, you seem to have cleared the space blanket part
up. What I'm directing my focus here at is the metal being
part of the last three. Could we discuss the last, the last
three layers there.
#07: Yeah. I...had a vague feeling that-there was a thin...
layer of metal like material, uh...I didn't feel that it
had a great deal to do with resistance to penetration, but
perhaps resistance of working abrasion from...the other side
or something. I.....
#31: Okay.
#07: I didn't feel it was....very important.
#6.5: I didn't know I was bustin' in on anything.
#31: We're in the debrief, sir.
#6.5: Okay. I didn't know. I'm sorry.
#07: No problem. No problem.
#6.5: (Mumble) I was bringing a visitor through the building and
I yelled and didn't hear anything.
#31: Oh. Well, okay. We heard you, but I thought it was like
#66, someone talking outside.
#6.5: Okay.
#31: Okay.
#07: Do you want this drawing?
#31: Yes, I do. I definitely do.
#07: What's my next number?
#31: Four.
#07: Oh. You wanted to talk about something ...the ball, or, uh,
the ball hitting this thing, sphere?
#31: Um, yeah. For four, now....
#07: For four, that's this one, okay.
#31: for four, if you would do me a...lay this instead of a
vertical position, lay this in a horizontal position. Just
do it, you know, quickly, place them together, and.....
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#07: Place them together?
#31: Yeah.
#07: Contact?
#31: You can go ahead and place them together as though they're
actually in contact.
#07: You're saying you want the layers to go in a vertical
direction?
#31: Yes.
#07: Jus'. you see take this like this and put it like that, is
that what you're saying?
#31: Right.
#07: Okay.
#31: Right. If you would do that with a...the ball impacting,
causing curving....
#07: I tell you, I see it in a vertical position.
#31: Okay. A vertical position.....
Can I.....
#07: Okay. I'll turn the paper sideways, and then we'll rotate
the paper..
#31: Whichever, whichever is easiest for you, but.....
#07: Okay. I'll.....
#31: ....make your note as to the activity which occurs at the
level at each layer. What does each layer do when the
ball impacts.
#07: Okay. I'll try.
#07: God! This is weird as hell, but I had a feeling..... that
sphere is oval shape; it's supposed to be round. I'll label
it ball. The viscous stuff appeared to...stretch around and
snap back in above the ball some, so that.... momentarily,
at least, if the ball wanted to come out, it couldn't-stretchy
material.
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#07: Okay?
#31: Okay now. In discussing the stretchy material, now, what
other...... you've mentioned another na-now the stretchy
material might even encase or almost entrap the ball or
something like that.
#07: Um humm (affirmative)
#31: You're... discuss now this interplay of the elasticity.....
The diminishing elasticity of this viscous.... this wa..... sticky
material as it is more and more penetrated.... more and more
deeply penetrated, you know.....
#07: Okay.
#31: ....In other words, what action does that actually.....
#07: I thought, I, I don't know, I thought at first it, it
give way, stretched away from impact rather easily and
rapidly, but its resistance to stretch increased with the
speed that it was required to stretch. If you hit it very
hard, it'd.....decelerate or become more resistant at a
faster rate. I felt that if you put pressure on it, and
applied pressure continually and steadily, that it would
probably move further than if you hit it very far, very fa...
like, uh, like, uh, something they used to have years ago....
my kids, uh...crazy putty or something like..... it. If you
tried to move it fast, it wouldn't move; if you moved slowly
it would give way. Something like that. But, I had a.....
I had an awareness that deceleration or resistance to
stretching was relative to the speed that it was required to
move.
#31: To move. Okay.
#07: If that makes sense. I....
#31: All right. Now, proceeding on to the next layer, it should
be the charcoal layer, there.
#07: I'm calling it foam like because it's a shorter word.
Foam like material, and this stuff...that's a lot of dots...
but, it seemed that, the particulate matter was extremely
dense and closely packed in the vicinity of the center of
this thing and the space between particles became greater
the further away from the fracture impact point. I felt
that the particles were considerably larger the further you
got away from there. But, that they were very, very fine.
My God. If this is, uh, if this ..something that is
supposed to repeatedly stopped impact, it looks like
it'd be severely damaged...in the area of the impact....in that
it micht not resist...continue to resist impa....resist
impact in the same area repeatedly. I don't know, that just
now came on me.
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#07: It was...like instead of the nose blowing up, it was like the
tail end blew up. It had a, uh...and I don't even know if you
can shape a charge like that, but, I thought it blasted the
thing in the direction of the target. That's what I saw.
#31: Okay. Well, now, let me get this straight. Now it was moving....
what we would call down range....
#07: Towards the plate.
#31: .....the broomstick was blunt nosed broomstick thing was striking
the exterior of the target, and in association with that
striking action there was another secondary type explosion?
#07: A secondary type explosion that was....
#31:....associated with the.....
#07: ......not in the nose, that I thought was in the tail.
#31: .....that was not in the nose; associated with the tail, you say...
....of the overall projectile thing. Okay. Of the thing that
moved down range.....
#07: I felt it was not in the nose. It was further back.
#31: Okay.
#07: And, I felt the results was to kick it harder in the direction
of the target. It's already hit target.
#31: In the direction of the target? It had already hit the target?
#07: It'd already hit the target.
#31: Okay. But, you mean to....
#07: But, I felt...
#31: .....into the target.
#07: .....into the target.
#31: Okay.
#07: Not outward, not outward, not in all directions.
#31: Okay.
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#07: I felt that the pressure was probably in both directions, but
the inertia concentrated it in the direction of penetrating.
#31: Okay.
#07: I don't know if that makes sense or not.
#31: Wha...did you note any particular characteristic ...other character-
istic of the explosion that...you've not reported as yet?
Any other peculiarity associated or not associated with this
singular peculiarity?
#07: No. I just remember seeing... extreme stress lines that seemed
to get lighter in tone the deeper the material was stretched,
as it stretched into the hole. And, after it went so far, then
I couldn't see any further. But, the stuff had a nice, smooth
curve as though ..you dropped a marble in...molasses or something,
and it makes a nice...it didn't swirl, it didn't seem to swirl.
It just, like it stretched straight in.
#31: Um hum (affirmative)
#07: And, what was otherwise a rather smooth material took on linear
stress lines.....
#31: Okay.
#07: ....rather than shatter.
#31: Okay.
#07: And, I found that very interesting.
#31: Okay. Was the... that's... still working on this imagery, the
timing sequence of strike to secondary explosion. First...first
touch, first contact to secondary explosion, did you feel that
there was any...was it instantan...were both actions instantaneous?
#07: You mean contact and explosion?
#31: (Mumble) contact.
#07: No. There was a certain degree of penetration before the secondary
explosion occurred. I felt there was damn near molten material
in the vicinity of the blunt nose, and the extra kick, rather
than exploding out in all directions, and blowing a big hole,
kicked the small projectile straight on through, and i remember
seeing it almost in slow motion going in a very, very straight
line straight down range, and I was able to follow it close up.
I don't know how I was able to do that, but, I remember it was
just about eye level, and I was just behind it to the.... to the
?
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#07: left, and I could see it go right on down range, and I was
surprised it wasn't dropping very fast......
#31: Um hum (affirmative)
#07: Which now tells me it was moving very fast.
#31: Um hum. Okay.
#07: But, uh, there was a big berm great, big berm down range that
this thing went into.
#31: Well, that...which thing went into, the projectile or the....
07: The projectile that went through the plate....the thing that
was hanging between the..... posts.
#31: Okay. Now, understanding that at this time you were....had
been directed.... understanding that at this time, that you
had been directed to pursue the broomstick device, you were
directed to move up......
#07: Um hum (affirmative)
#31: .....to a high altitude....
#07: This is when I thought I was looking at, uh....someplace south
of Moscow. I guess.
#31: Okay.
#07: Now, this was...I was having trouble with this. I remember being
told, uh.....you know, get rid of the clouds, and....so, I could
take a good look. I :emembeT seeing a river running diagonally
from the northwest to the southeast, and there was another time
I was aware of a...a lake somewhere. Let's see that.....
that would be to the east. It gets kinda vague-in there. I
don't know whether I succeeding in naming this, or...I kinds
lose it there.
#31: Okay.
#07: I seem to be aware of.....
#31: ....that's essentially it....
SG1A
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MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD 17 September 1980
SUBJECT: Session D-48 Targeting Data
1. (S/NOFORN) This was #07's first completed session against 8003d (OPSEC
portion of Project 8003). A previous session (D-28) attempted on 5 September
1980, was aborted due to noise interference. Prior to that date, #07 had
performed four sessions against 8003a(CC74, CC87, CCC139 CCC15), three sessions
against 8003b (CCC98, CD40, CD42), and one session against 8003c (CD53) using
diverse targeting methods (geo coordinates, sealed envelope).
2. (S/NOFORN) It must be noted that sub-Project 8003d is an otherwise
unrelated OPSEC oriented aspect of 8003 directed against a commensurate piece
of allied equipment, as opposed to the primary hostile equipment. It must also
be noted that considerable time had elapsed since #07 had had any involvement
whatsoever with this project, the last consummated session having occurred
on 17 June 1980. #07 was unaware prior to this session of any contiguity/
relationship (however marginal) between this session and those in which #07
had had earlier invol ement. In fact, #07 was unaware of project analyst identity
until just prior to the debriefing.
3. (S/NOFORN) Interviewer #66 had been involved in 22 of the preceding 23
sessions concerning Project 8003, was aware of the project analyst for this
session, and was aware of the identity of the object targeted during the earlier
D-28/D-29 dual session as a result of post-session conversations with the project
analyst. Prior to this session, #66 was not informed of any data regarding this
session's target other than that contained at TAB B, this report.
4. (S/NOFORN) At session start, #07 was provided a sealed envelope by #66,
and was informed by #66 that the contents of the envelope consisted of a photo-
graph of the actual target object. #07 was at no time allowed to open the
envelope (which had been in a sealed condition since 5 September 1980) to observe
the photografp, nor had #66 ever seen the contents of the target envelope.
5. (S/NOFORN) The session was monitored by the project analyst from a separate
room of the facility. The analyst was cognizant of target identity, and was also
aware of basic areas of interest regarding the object as a result of earlier
professional association with OPSEC. The analyst was/is not aware of finite or
detained data regarding actual specifications/construction/etc. During latter
part of the session, the analyst provided considerable guidance/direction to the
interviewer. These elements are recorded at TAB B, this report.
KENNETH V. BELL
Analyst
CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH
DTG: 05163OZ JUL 78
REVIEW: October 2000
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#31: Okay. You wanna give that to me again #07? What you were
just saying.
#07: Oh. I was just looking at this drawing here, that...you
know, it looks like it'd pierced the outer metal skin, and
that the... structure of the foam like layer has been altered
and perhaps changed to something like a...a more powdery form
which looks like, you know, just looking at this thing.......
left brain, it looks like it'd probably be a weak point in the
future .....that you could not impact the same area more than
once and expect to have the same degree of resistance.
#31: Okay.
#07: That its, its effectiveness is spent in one....in a particular
area when it's impacted.
#31: Okay.
#07: Tha...that's just, I don't know....
#31: Fine.
#07: It's just a feelin gI had there, just looking at this...uhhh..
I've drawn in a layer just below that, that I felt also
stretched somewhat. It may be it's a stretchy material, but I
didn't feel that it was. Uh... I felt it was more, um, more
resistance. Its degree of resistance to stretch was greater
than the first layer.
#31: Okay.
#07: I kinda get lost after this area, here.
#31: Okay. Then, we should be space blanketing, and the final
three layers which couldn't be separated. I believe that's
all that's left.
#07: Okay. The space blanket, where ...I, I don't know, the space
blanket could be right adjacent to this second stretchy layer....
#31: Um hum. (Affirmative)
#07: ...or it could be after another layer in there, down in the...
down in the three layers somewhere.
#31: Okay. Fine. Why don't you just......
#07: And, I know that's contradictory, 'cause, if.....
#31: No.
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#07: ....it's down in there.....that makes four layers.
#31: No. I understand.
#07: But, I...I just can' t ...that's the best I can do.
#31: Why don't you just put a dotted line across there, and label
it remaining layers, uh.....
#07: Um hum..
#31: Okay. Sketch four is our result of impact.
#07: I wish I'd done that in the vertical... the other angle there,
and, I'da had more writing space on each side. It's okay.
#31: No. That's fine....
#07: No problem?
#31: That's fine. Okay. Um...overall thickness...
#07: I think I said about... somewhere I put my hand on it, and I
could feel one edge with my thumb and my middle finger was feelng
the other side. I know I said about three inches. Didn't I?
#31: Um hum (affirmative). You said three to four inches.
#07: Well, I was feeling it, but.....
#31: Um... You said it was like it was about two telephone directories.
I'm gonna ask.....
#07: It was kinda like closing your eyes, and feeling something,
and you don't know how far you've got your hand squeezed
together. But, you can feel the edges between your thumb and
your finger.
#31: Okay.
#07: So, I don't know.
#31: How much distance is there between there?
#07: What is that, five inches?
#31: Okay.
#07: But, somewhere in there I said something about three.
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#31: In looking at his hand in the proper position, he estimates
five inches thick. Uh...Okay. Now, there's a very interesting
aspect of this session, right now, which occurred. Uh...I, I
the analyst opted to drive the session in a certain manner,
at this time. I directed number 66 to have you expand your
consciousness, and to search for anything which could fully
penetrate the sandwich. Uh, now, I'm making admin notes here
on the transcript.
#07: What was presented.....
#31: Now, at this time.....
#07: ......to me was, I believe, defeat. I believe the word
defeat was used.
#31: Okay. But, these were my directions. Um...at this time um...
I informed 66 that this would probably bring you off target, but
that it would be the last area of questioning in any case. Uhh.
Number 66 tasked you then to go ahead, and do those things....
To, uh, expand your awareness of anything which could defeat
or penetrate the sandwich, I believe is the terminology he used.
Okay, and after he had given you that tasking, I interjected
once again into the...into number 66 to allow you to flow
wherever you needed to do this. Now, for your refresh...... for
refreshing your memory, I will read off.....read from my notes.
The trouble with taffy. Shaped charge wouldn't do it.
#07: Ohl That's explosive shaped charge, you know. It blows
inward, okay.
#31: Get through with high density, high density, small cross-section.
So, inertia, inertia, tremendous heat energy on a small area.
Device cannot be explosive, extremely dense, have mass concentra-
ted, density increases with deceleration, effect... effect of
extreme escalation of density is dissipated energy.
#07: I said that?
#31: You said that. I don't know....you know....this is....it was
spontaneous "dump" of verbage, is what it is.....
#07: Just, just a fast "dump."
#31: That's fine. It was very fast, and I want to spend some
time .... you to spend some time here reviewing that "dump", and
see if you can.....put "dump" in quotation marks, please,
reviewing this data "dump" and attempting, possibly, to provide
some more clarification of that.
#07: Well, I don't even understand it. All I, all I got was, uh.....
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#31: Now, remember this is gisting. I have...gisted the dialogue at
this point, because I did not have enough time to write it down
verbatim. Now, that .... your actual words may be more clear.
This contains only the essence of what you were saying at that
moment.
#07: I remember having a very, very strong excited feeling about.......
Yeah, you could, you could do it this way, and I thought......
I likened it to taking your fist and hitting something, and
backing off, and just taking one finger and striking real
hard, and real fast, and going right through it, and then when I
was looking at that I saw...... I saw someone with a (laugh)
someone with a swab handle, with the swab still on it, just back
off, and just ram it right through something that they couldn't,
couldn't bust through.
#31: Okay. Let me ask you. your definition of "swab handle." What
do you mean?
#07: A mop handle.
#31: Okay. All right.
#07: Ohl Okay, okay, a mop handle.
#31: Okay.
#07: And, it's someone with a two-handed thing, and they.....
visualize 'em,you know, trying like trying to beat through a
door or something, and they....picked up this...mop handle, and
put it in....like a ram.....
#31: Um hum (affirmative).
#07: ...the old fashioned ram.
#31: Um hum (affirmative).
#07: And...
#31: You likened it to trying to beat your...beat your way out of a
marshmallow room or something like that, at one point in time.
#07: Oh! I guess I was trying to see how you defeat this stuff, and
because of its given moving away from impact, and absorbing the
energy, I.... Yeah, I remember feeling like it was...like
beating a big marshmallow, and...not getting out of it. But,
I felt that, uh, a very small... and I said blunt ...mop handle
with extremely high velocity, should go right through. But, I
remember feeling that the device could not be explosive or it'd
blow up before it got through.
#31: Okay.
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#07: And- I remember asking myself, well, what good is the thing if
it don't blow up inside or the other side. ust punch a hole
in it. .....You know. I, I got lost there. I don't know what
happened. Maybe, someone asked me a question or something.
I don't know.
?#31: Okay. Now, let's, um, all right, this was, um...
#07: But, I remember playing with, uh, this feelings of heat and
melting, and..... things.
#31: Okay. This is all a continuous portion, now. This is a sub-
section of the...of the session. So, let me go on through the
notes, okay. You were asked .... in response to this....verbage...
spontaneous verbage earlier...does this device exist now?
And, the session was moving extremely rapidly at this time, and
all I have written down from you is...same ...same...something.
Then, you were directed to go through space and search for the
device. Does it exist now? And, your comment was research is
being conducted. Feeling of...people who made the sandwich also
aware of countermeasures. They are supporting the people working
on the countermeasures.
#07: Hum.
#31: Okay?
#07: Yeah. Okay.
#31: Do you have any clarifying words for that or.....
#07: No. In my mind now, I see people working hand-in-hand trying
to build the resistance, working with the people, trying to
overcome it .....
#31: Um hum (affirmative)
#07: ...and sharing data. Yeah. Sharing data... But, God, why
would you want to defeat it.....
#31: Okay.
#07: ...unless, you knew somebody else had it,....that the....I....I'm
...getting into logic now.
#31: No, let's not logic.
#07: I'm getting lost.
#31: Okay. I want to make an admin note here........
#07: Yeah. I'm getting lost.
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#31: .....for the sake of the transcript. At this point in time, uh.....
the remote viewer used the term "our" in relation to the
sandwich people supporting the countermeasures people. All right?
#07: Um hum. (affirmative)
#31: Now, later on the...also, admin note continued, later on this
point was re-clarified, but at this point, a review of the
transcript should reveal that the term "our" possessive plural,
was used in referring to the countermeasures. All right. At....
continuing on, then, you were again directed to expand your
awareness, and, uh.......
#07: We're towards the end of the tape, here. We're going to eject
here.
#31: (Mumble) Okay. Let's go ahead. We'll change it now.
(Admin Note: tape change)
#07: Okay. It's going again.
#31: Ummm. All right. Uh, you were asked...I guess we can go down
here, through... there was a little bit of dialogue here, at
this point in the session. You were asked, "Whose sandwich is
this?" And, you said three different factions: four different
peoples, and....again, you used the term peoples, as in social
groups, peoples, actively.... actively, but three pretty good,
but slightly different. Okay?
#07: Oh. Okay. I remember that. I remember that.
#31: Your......
#07: I can explain that.
#31: Okay ..... okay, and, uh...go ahead, explain that.
I, you.....
#31: We had a chance later on in the session to (mumble)...
#07: Yeah. Later on I, I think this, this came out. I.....
#31: (Mumble) clarify......
#07: I...I wasn't su...at this stage I wasn't sure. All I could see
was, uh....four different labs working at this, and I could see
that three....for some reason seemed to be having some success.
#31: Um hum (affirmative)
#07: And, it was three diff..uh..four different labs...four different
attempts, and three had great similarity, and seemed to be
having some success or perhaps had achieved success. I don't
know. But, I felt that one wasn't doing too well, and I think
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#07: ...I later came on, and I thought ...I thought these.. .four
represented, uh, the US, England, France, and Soviet Russia, and
I felt that France was not doing as well. I think that's the
way it came out.
#31: Um hum (affirmative) Okay. You were asked, "Who owns the
sandwich?" "Whose sandwich is this?"
#07: Um hum.
#31: Okay.
#07: One of the four....
#31: You said U-S.
#07: Hum.
#31: You didn't say "us," you said U-S. Ours, and then you
referred back earlier in the session..I'd said "our."
#07: Um hum.
#31: You said, "Who owns the broomstick?"
#07: Um hum.
#31: Okay.
#07: Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah!` I know.....
#31: What did you say then. Do you recall your.....
#07: I said the S-Soviet Union had the broomstick. I guess. I don't
know. I'm,right now, what I'm seeing now is I'm going up to
five...so...thousands of feet, and I'm looking at geography.
Yes. I know, but....
#07: .....for some reason, I guess I'm lost.
#31: I'm interested in your words here, because it is a very
difficult part of the session, because you were really
working. (Laugh)
#31: Okay. Umm. You said, "We do, but someone else, and it's not a
secret." Okay. "It's not a secret." Do you recall those words?
#07: Uh uh (negative)
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#31: Okay
and, you were talking about this long broomstick.
#07: I think this be about the time I was getting so tired.
#31: Okay. (Mumble) I'm going through... Now, this...long broomstick
situation... words which you used later on in the session,
which I take is the same thing as the mop handle idea.
#31: You had spontaneous imagery of.a hanging plate on something
apparently like a firing range......
#07: Oh yeah! Yeah. I'd forgotten about that
#31: and, the broomstick.....
#07: Just went straight through like it was greased.
#31: ...projectile type thing being fired at the plate, or...
#07: Um hum (affirmative)
#31: ...presumably, being propelled at the plate. I...firing, I
don't know. Uh, and, there was a peculiar, different,
recognizably different type activity upon impact associated
with the broomstick; and, if you would review that imagery
now, and would explain to..... and explain once again, putting it
together.
#07: I'm trying to get back, uh.....
#31: This is where you made...you used words such as "double kick,"
"kick in the..."
#07: Oh, yeah! Okay. I...I thought, and I don't know whether I
said it or not, but,. I thought this thing was a...I thought
this thing had a...was accelerated to speed... perhaps by rocket
or...projectile of some type...and, on impact, an explosion was
set off that give it an extra kick. It started accelerating again.
I don't know if that's feasible or not. But, that's what I saw.
I saw the thing hit, and then it...something in the tail of it
blasted, and the thing speeded up......got even faster .... went right
on through.
#31: Okay.
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