JPRS ID: 8890 NEAR EAST/NORTH AFRICA REPORT INTERVIEW WITH CARLOS, INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST

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• Collection: JPRS
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP82-00850R000200040059-1
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• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 43
• Document Creation Date: November 1, 2016
• Sequence Number: 59
• Content Type: REPORTS

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i ~ ~ J J > > L, I

29 JANURRY 1980 EFOUQ Sf80) 1 OF 1

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I~OR OF1~1('1,11. l~til�: t)N1.1
JPRS L/8890
29 Janua~y 1980
ar East/ North Africa Re ort
e p
CFOUO 5/80)
Interview with Carlos, International Terrorist
_ FBIS FOREIGN BROADCAST INFORNiATION SERV!CE
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JPRS L/8890
29 January 1980
NEAR EAST/NORTH AFRICA REPORT ~
(FOUO 5/80) -
~ IN?ERVIEW WITH CARLOS, INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST
Paris AL-WATAN AL-'AR.ABI in Arabic 30 Nov-6 Dec, 7-13 Dec,
14-20 Dec 79
[Three-part interview with the international terrc�-rist, Carlos, by 'Asim
- al-Jundi]
[30 Nov-6 Dec 79 pp 6-10)
[TextJ Part I: "AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI Interviews the Man Who Is Being
Sought by Police Everywhere in the World: Carlos Reveals Everything;
'My Real Name Is Ilyitch, and Salim Is One of My Numerous Aliases; My
Family Is a Petty Bourgeois Family; My Mother Is a Fine, but an Ordinary
Woman, and My Father Is a Doctor of Jurisprudence; I Studied 2 Years in
London and Continued My University Studies in Moscow'; Did Carlos Partici-
pate in Lebanese War?"
Our colleague 'Asim al-Jundi has succeeded in "finding" Carlos. He con-
ducted a series of interviews with him that lasted long hours. During
- the interviews Carlos agreed to relate his full story.
AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI is publishing the extended interview in installments.
The interview is corroborated by several "documents" in Carlos's own -
handwriting. As it sets this precedent, AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI will not fail
to affirm its commitment to the primary principle upon which the freedom
of ttie press is based: The reader's right to know the background of events -
and to know about those who make the events, especially since publication
of this interview does not necessarily imply [that AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI ie
- taking] a certain position on the opinions or secrets which Carlos reveals
here for the first time.
Here is the first installment.
"I have been treated unfairly many times in everything that has been
written about me. I am placing my life, my humble history in your handa;
you can act freely [as you wish]_"
1 [III - NE & A- 121 FOUO]
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He added, "I have never done this before, but I have felt that you were
different from the others, and I have come to trust you even though I rarely
trust anyone."
I had met him more than once, but it had never occurred ~-o me, not even for
one instant, that this fair-haired, elegant, extremely cuurteous young man
was Carlos, the man I had been looking for for a long time and had been
trying to meet,
A few days after these interviews I came upon a newspaper that had printed
a lengthy article about Carlos on the last page. The article was entitled
"The End of a Fox," and there was a picture of Carlos wearing prescription
glasses. It was the picture that French ~olice had been able to take one
day with the help of (Michele Mikarbil). It was afterwards circulated
among all the intelli~,ence and INTERPOL agencies in the world. -
I did not pay attention at the outset, but then I looked at the picture
closely. -
This was Salim.
Is Salim Carlos?
- ( became certain that our very courteous good friend--"the good student" _
r~s tie often jokingly called himself--was no other than Carloa who had in
_ time become a semi-legend or "a man in the world of the imagination."
Salim is one of his numerous names.
The interviews recurred. '
And our relations became stronger.
He would often come to my house at a late hour of the night, and we would -
begin drinking and talking until the early hours or the morning. -
_ ~Ie spent the night at my house a few times, but in spite of the fact that
we stayed up Iate, he would prefer to go to his home [whose whereabouts]
I did not know. I had to await his sudden appearance which could come
after one day, after days or perhaps after months.
When I proposed to him the idea of an interview, he replied with thoae
words with which I began this article/interview. Thus did the verbal
journey begin.
The most prominent feature of his personality, and what attracted me to
- him in a special way, was a kind of romantic chivalry, if one may use such _
an expression.
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His relationship with children is strange. One senaes that he yearne for
them. The hours he spends with the children of a friend, who may not know
him as he really is, becoming acquainted with them, bringing them gifts or
playing wi.th them become for him tlie best of times.
Id Did No* Find You at Ttao 0'Clock
Signs of affection torn by grief and deep joy would appear in his eyes when
he was with children. This may be due to a deprived and a frustrated child-
hood in his distant past.
When I returned home one day late at night, I found a note on the door in
which he had said, "I came by to bid you farewell, and I did not find you.
It is 2 am. So long."
I felt very sorry, and I continued to expect him to show up or to hear newa
of him, but I did not know in which country he was.
Whenever I would hear about a new revolutionary operation or about the
- liquidation of one of "the terrorists," I would pursue the news of the
operation with trepidation in my heart lest "my friend" be the one the
ne~as was referring to.
One time after his return from a short trip, I told him about my fears, and
he l.aughed [and said]: -
"When I am on an operation, you do not need to gather information.
"Only when the operation is a big one, when it has the touches of Carlos
and when it generates considerable clamor can you then be certain that I
am the one who carried it out, planned it or at least was behind it."
Where is he now? Is he training others? Is he being trained? Is he making -
preparations for a new operation?
Has he been killed by one of the intelligence agencies which are pursuing
him, and has his assassination not yet been ar.nounced?
Let us begin first with the life and early youth of Carlos.
~
"In politics, I am orthodox, that is [I pursue] a clear line. But in life
I am an adventurer, it runs in the family.
"I have tackled many things all over the world and even in Beirut for the
sake of adventure only."
"What about Beirut?"
He laughed before he replied. "Leave Beirut alone. At least for now;
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"I do not intend to hide anything from you, but some things mu~t not be
revealed before due time.
"Everything that has been said or published about me so far--as I have ,
already told you--is a lie. They are mere lies. That is why I want yau
to come as close to the truth as possible. _
"I trust you, and I am giving you the freedom to act as a writer. I will
not interfere in your work at all.
, "During the events in Lebanon a division flying red flags on some Jeepa
that were equipped with Dusl:ka machine guns called itself Carlos's divi- ~
sion."
During the recent Israeli aggression on South Lebanon, there wer2 rumors
that Carlos was in South Lebanon fighting to repel the aggression, and I
can imagine that.
[Question) Let us then begin with your life: ,
His attitude became serious, and he considered my question at length with
what seemed to be hesitation.
[Q~iestion] And let us start with the early begin~tings, and with details,
please.
He smiled sorrowfully.
[Answerl I was born in Caracas the capital of Venezuela on the 12th of
October 1949. :
My parents are Venezuelans from the Tachira region in the Andes Mountains.
It is curious that a11 of Venezuela's dictators came from this region.
(He was insisting that his parents were from Venezuela. It seems that he
- was hurt by what had once been said about them being from Colombia.) , _
- I grew up in Caracas with my brothers, Lenin and Vladimir. My real name
_ is Ilyitch. Thus the three of us have names that are taken from Lenin's
full n~+.me.
[Question] Does this mean that your father is a communist?
~AnswerJ He is a Marxist, but he is not a party member. _
[Question] How did you acquire the name, Carlos, then?
[Answer] It is one of my many names, but it is the most important one, _
especially in my organization.
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P1y Eather�s name is (,Jose I?lstagrap Ramiroa Tavas). ~
My mother's name is Alva Maria Santchez.
My full name is Ilyitch Ramiros Santchez (part of the father's name and
part of the mother's. All Spanish names are like this. As you can see
it is a logical and a fair matter. Some people take two names from their
fathers and two names from their mothers to be more grandiose.)
I Am the Oldest of My Brothers
_ I am the oldest of my brothers. Then there is I~enin and then Vladimir.
I stayed in Caracas until October 1958. Early in our lives the three of
- us did not go to school. We were taught at home by private tutors, and
this was unusual.
[Question] Does this mean that you did not associate with others during
your childhood?
[Answer] This is correct.
_ At that time my three brothers and I went with our mother to Mexico City,
the capital of Mexico, for 5 months. Then we went to Kingston in Jamaica
(where we stayed] for 6 more mnnths.
My father is a doctor of jurisprudence, and my family is a petty bourgeois
family.
At that time my mother traveled t-o Bogota, the capital of Colombia, with
my brother Vladimir who was sick.
My father came and took me and Lenin back to Venezuela.
' We stayed in Venezuela for a few months. Then we all travele~i. My brother,
my father, my grand:nother and I went to live with my mother in Bogota.
We lived there for about a year. After that :ay father left ua and returned
to his business in Venezuela.
A year later, Father went wir_h Vladimir to Costa Rica.
(Question] Why all these travels?
[AnswerJ My father and my mother were separated. My father had sent my
~ mother there to see if the climate was suitable so we could live with her.
[Question) Why did they separate?
He laughed.
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,
Is Not Separation Better? ~
(Answer] Is not separation better after years of living tagether?
' At first, we returned with Father to Caracas until Mother Ahould arrange
matters for our settlement with her. My father also had to assure himself
about our education.
Before settling [anywhere] my mother went to Panama, Costa Rica, Gua.temala
and then to Mexico with which she fell in love. My brother and 1 went to
meet her in Mexico City. But we only stayed there a few months until we
left for Miami, Florida in the United States where my father wanted to buy
a house.
Thus we lived in the United States for some time while we looked for a house
in Florida.
At that time something unexpected happened in Venezuela. [The value of)
Venezuelan currency fell, and taking money out of Venezuela was no longer
allowed.
- For this reason we went to Jamaica for a few montha, and then we returned
ro Caracas. -
At that time we went to secondary school.
Uuring the first year we attended a private institution. In the following
year, my father enrolled us at the Lycee (Firene Toureau) and then in a
high school in Venezuela that was lrnown for the fact that all the revolu-
tionaries had attended it. This was against my mother's wishes.
But it seems that Father agreed to enroll us in that school merely because
my mother did not want us to be enrolled there.
[Question] Were there problems between your parents?
[Answer] By the way, nry father was not an ordinary man. For example, he
did not lose a single case in 34 years as an attorney. ~
We were all born during the days of dictatorship, but he, neverthelesa,
gave us all communist names, and this was a kind of challenge.
_ At home he was very tender, but outside he was cruel and powerful.
My Mother Is 8eautiful and Elegant
My mother was a good and a fine woman, but she was an ordinary woman.
She was beautiful and elegant--and she is until now. She has a cheerful
disposition, and she loves social life, but she is extremely sensitive.
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My mother's grandfather was one of the Venezuelans who had immigrated to
Colombia and then returned to VenezLiela. They were 60 men who had :r~ught
Hc~ver+il. b~ttles a~ainat a large army. Then they entered Caracas hnd ~rtzed
;~~?wrr nlter a major revolution in 1899.
Years later they were overt"t?rown by a coup led by the vice president who
remained [the country's] dictator for 30 years.
During that time my grandfather carried out several daring operations with _
a suicide group to assassinate the governor of (Tatchira), the president's
cousin. After the attack on the governor failed, he fought alone until he
enabled his entire group to flee to the mountains. However, he was captured.
When they took him into custody, they did not kill him because he was one
of the rebels who had originally carried out the action. They did, however,
torture him for a long time to make hi.m reveal to them the names of [members
of) his group. But he refused.
He was a tall, huge man. He emerged from this torture with his back bent,
but he had not revealed the name of a single member of his group.
He remained 7 years in jail at hard labor, tied with large iron chains.
_ He was a handsome man. The warden's wife fell in love with him becauae of
his virility and his beauty.
He was then released, but the family had been destroyed and had lost every-
thing.
His Grandfather Is the Model
I sensed as he talked to me about his mother's grandfather that he considered
him a model of some sort.
~ And even more.
It were as though there was some private, secret mysterj~ that had Ied him
- to believe that his grandfather's spirit had passed into his body and that
he had suddenly become that ancient knight who had risked everything so as
not to betray his comrades. He was strong, handsome and popular among
women and he had an enormous capacity to endure torture. This is Carlos.
_ When he talked tc me about his grandfather, it were as though his voice
were coming to me from a distant "legend." It was not so much Carlos who
was doing the talking as much as it was the grandfather, the legend.
And the Journey Began _
Then I interrupted him.
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[Question] Will you take us back to your school days?
(Anawer] All right. I began political life in that school.
ln 1964 I joined the Cocmnuniat Youth Organization. it was a secret o~~gani-
zation, and I was very active in different atudent organizationa.
In 1965-1966 I became responsible for the school organization which had
200 members.
The school was in the center of town. I participated in numerous demon-
strations, and I was one of the leaders of those demonstrations which had
deprived former Venezuelan President Raul Leoni of sleep.
I joined the university in 1966, but my father feared for my future. He
would feel something close to terror whenever he would watch me closely
or find out about my actions which had become known in student circles.
My father and I had several problems for political reasons. (It had never -
occurred to me when I used to hear about Carlos or keep up with his news,
and especially after his famous operations, that I w~uld one day meet him.)
At this stage my father wanted to send me to London to study. In a prac-
tical way he wanted to keep me away from the rebels in Venezuela. Thus
i~e sent me with Mother to London where we arrived in August 1966.
_ During the same year the first World Student Organization was established
in Britain. A British communist woman was e~.ected president, and there
were two vice presidents; one of them was an Iraqi.
tn 1955 there was a worldwide communist movement, but today the situation
is different.
We stayed in London till 1968 where I only completed two preparatory years
for the university. Afterwards I returned to the University of Moscow. By
_ that time my mother had been divorced from my father. Afterwards I went
to Lumumba University in Moscow with the help of the Venezuelan Communist .
Party.
We carried out some operations during those years, but I cannot discuss
them now.
At any rate, they were modest operations.
Next week, my relations with the Popular Front.
a
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For the first time Carlos agrees to sign the back of his photograph in his
own handwriting: "To a wonderful poet from an apprentice poet, Carlos."
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This is the one true photcoraph of Carlos in which he appears clearly.
Carlos agreed to its being published despite the fact that the police have
only an old photo of him in eye glasses.
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Again for the first time, his handwritten signature in one of his many ~
names, "Salim"; it is a small card which Carlos left for 'Asim al-Jundi
and on it he writes: "Come to the house of 'Abd-al-Hakam (Abu 1 Hakam)"
to continue the interviews.
[7-13 Dec 79 pp 6-9]
. (Texc] Part II: "AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI Meets Carlos, the Man Who Is Being
Sought hy IJorld Police Everywhere; 'George Habash, the Popular Front and
I~~~
()~ir colleague 'Asim al-Jundi resumes his interview with Carlos, the man
wtlo is being sought by the world police everywhere.
In this article in the series Carlos speaks about his relationship with
the Popular Front and his initial contacts with the Palestinian organiza-
tions.
AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI is publishing the detailed interview in installments.
The interview is corroborated by several documents in Carlos's own hand-
- writing.
- As it publishes this interview which has been carried by major world news-
papers, AL-WATAN al-'ARABI will not fail to affirm its commitment to the ~
primary principle upon which the freedom of the press is based: The reader's
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righ~ to know the backgrcund of events and to know about those who make
t}ie ev~~nts, especially since publication of this interview does not necea-
sarily signify [that AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI is taking] a certain position on
the opinions and the secrets that Carlos is revealing for the first time.
Here is the second installment. ~
And the Journey Began
[QuestionJ When and how did your relationship with the Popular Front
_ be~in? Does it sti11 exist? Whut role do you play in the front, and what
- is the role of the front in all the operations that you have carried out?
~Answer) In principie I~iave my own private organization in all of Latin
America.
I be~;an my relations with the front in July 1970.
On that day I left Moscow on my way to Beirut with a message from a front
official in Moscow to Ghassan Kanafani. (It was from the secret student
organiza!-ion they have there).
I was invited to one of the Arab countries to join a summer camp for foreign-
ers and Arabs coming from abroad. On the surface it was a camp, but its
reality was otherwise.
On the following day I went to that country with a message from Ghassan to
Bassam Abu Sharif who was at the Information Office there.
On ttie 23rd of July I went with a group of Arabs and foreigners to the -
_ training camp. Por security reasons, however, the camp was brought to a
standstill 10 days after it had begun.
Most of the people who were there left, but few of them remained. I had
basically, however, gone there on a clear and specific mission.
[Question] What was that mission?
(Answer~ Let us ~o back to September 1968. At that time I had gone to
Moscow and had enrolled in Lumumba University to study, The Venezuelan
Communist Party was experiencing a crisis and was divided into two sections.
One section was in the highlands, guerrilla fashion. (There is no precise
synonym in Arabic ~or the word, "guerrilla"; it denotes roughly one who is
- willing to give up his life [for a cause), a terrorist, or both. Perhaps
mountain fighters are a closer parallel).
This section was led by Douglas Bravo.
But the other ser_rion had completely halted the armed struggle and wanted
to become democra[:ic and parliamentary.
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I triPd to organize withir. the Venezuelan Co~nunist Party organization in
Moscow a secret group in the interests of Douglae Bravo. However, another
comrade and I who were managing the organization--and we were also members _
af Veneziielan Youkh--werc diacovered late in 1969.
After that, early in July 1970, we were expelled from the university with _
the orders of the Venezuelan Communist Party. This is because all the
Venezuelan students there had been sent by the party to study in the
Soviet Union.
When the party asked that we be expelled [from the university], the Soviets
expelled us. Although I did not accept this conduct, it was a reasonable
matter.
Some of those who were expelled and also some of those who were not ex-
- pelled wanted to go to one of the Arab countries to engage in guerrilla
training operations.
We had in fact intended to go before we were expelled. The expulsion
changed our plans, -
i Was the Youngest
At first the plan was that we go [to one of the Arab countries] for train-
irig for a limited peri~d of time. We would then return to Moscow and then
to Venezuela. After our expulsion this was not possible. _
Although I was the youngest of the comrades, I was practically the moving
force for this group.
An agreement was reached that I should go to one of the Arab countries
because I had more experience than the others. I had also lived in Europe
and could speak several languages. I was also the first one to have con-
tacted the Palestinians.
The purpose of my trip then was to find out what exactly was the Palestin-
_ ian Revolution and to obtain information about the PFLP in particulAr as
wel~ as the other oi�ganizations. I would then write to my group in Moscow
telling them to come or not.
This was my mission, and these were the reusons for my trip. -
When the camp was over, I went back to meet with Bassam Abu Sharif, and
I told him that I wanted to join a real guerrilla camp.
When he approved my request, I joined the Popular Front officially and be-
came a member. This was early in August. I went with them to Jal'ad
Mountain.
~
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(When Carlos wanted to recall something, he would stare at the ceiling
at length.)
There I met George Habaeh who had come to visit the camp. He wae planning
to go to Korea.
Gle spoke a little about my homeland, my family, my Cuban wife and my
daughter. (My wife's name i.s Sonya Marin Oriola.) My daughter was born
in Havana when I left Moscow, and I do not know what they called her. I
- would like to call her Sonya a1so, but I am not sure of the name.
(What are a person's feelings when he does not know the name of a child
of his whom he had never seen?) I wrote to them many times, but I am not
receiving now any news from them.
[Question] Do you still love your wife? ~
[Answer] Yes. Can't you see that I am really moved even though I do not
like to be romantic?
After a few moments of inattention clouded with grief [Carlos said]:
The new camp ended early in September because fighters were needed. _
The best fighters were taken, and I was left with the young or with those
who were not fighters. I was very unhappy about this, and I protested to _
the officer in charge at the camp.
I was with a special combat group. We were guarding a large, underground _
weapons depot, and our station was near a small village.
The groups in the area were crushed in that attack. Those who were not
- killed retreated, and even the camp group had to retreat.
- The commander of our group was an off icer my age or slightly younger.
The commander said, "We mu~c protect this place and fight till death.
There is pler_ty of ammunition here, and it is very important for the
battle.
~ We were actually the only group that had remained in that area.
I remained there for about 1 month. After that we were transferred to
another training camp near Barama, between the Gaza Camp and Barama,
specifically in the mountains of Jarash.
During that period the commandpr of the group and I were wounded, and I
acquired good warfare experience.
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I was in that camp in October, [and I stayed there] until November. 4Te
_ were 60 men.
When this training camp ended, and this was in November, I came out first
' in the examinations and in everything. ,
Habash, Haddad and I
Afterwards I went to anot~�~ camp, and there was an important meeting for
- its command.
There I saw George Habash for the second time. He was the one who intro-
_ duced me at that time to Wadi' Haddad.
There were special guerrilla groups in Camp No 201 [operating] under the ~
leadership of Fatah. I was a membPr of one of those groups.
The fact is that we were two groups in the front, and there were seven
persons in each group. These two groups were among those whose fighters
and combat capabilities were trusted. ~
It snowed on the mountains during that time, and we did not have winter
clothing or even tents. Our condition became very bad, and our bodies
became inlested ~aith insects.
About 3 months later we left the joint forces and went to a strategic
- farm belonging to the Popular Resistance.
We went there, but we did not fight. We stayed there a few weeks only for
emergencies.
- In practical terms we stayed there till the end of the year. I still re-
member that I had guard duty for 12 continuous hours on New Year's Eve. '
Bedouin Girls Have Special Charm. ~
The Popular I'ront resorted to new tactics. It formed guerrilla groups in -
the mountains, but I thought that there was a grievous error in the matter..
T told the political officer this. He used to go to the command meeting
every week. He conveyed my idea [to themJ, and he adopted it.
I knew that the idea was basically erroneous. I did, however, decide to
- go with them, especially since they insisted upon forming these groups.
They left us the freedom to choose [whether or not] we would join them.
~ The first place for the guerrillas was a cave that was located between
two Bedouin villages. I thus had the opp~~rtunity to live with those Arabs
and to come to know their lives closely. I still remember that Bedouin
- girls have a special arid a curious charm.
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- At the beginning I was in a group of seven fighters. We arrived at our
- station on a Sunday.
T`wo other groups came the following week, and we became 21 men.
We lived a real guerrilia life; we established good relations with the
Qedouins who lived around is, and each group had a function.
One group would fight; one group would make preparations; one group would =
rest; and we would thus take turns. -
I rlet Bassan in Beirut
At the end of January I went to London.
I wrote to my family in London, and my brother sent a telegram to the news-
paper, AL-HADAF, which they in turn sent to the meeting place.
_ I spoke with George Habash before [my] departure, and he approved the idea.
Z carried a Liberation Organization [membershipJ card because all front
fighters who had been captured had been killed immediately.
I arrived in London in February. I am still convinced that th` idea of -
guerrillas was a bad idea. Militarily, however, I did gain good experience.
1 returned to London then to resume my battle from there. I was a member
of the Popular Front, and our graup in Moscow had been dispersed and ter-
minated.
After my experience in that Arab coun*_ry, the battle for me was no longer
that of a foreigner who believes in the principles of the World Revolution. -
It became something within me; it became a matter of deatiny. -
~
After some time I returned to Beirut and met with Bassam Abu Sharif. He
told me what had happened after my departure.
Most of the fighters were in Lebanon: George Habash and also Wadi' Haddad. ~
It was at this stage that I resumed my communications with Wadi'. The
truth is that these communications had begun in the summer of 1971.
The front had a problem: The lack of money. It was very poor.
Early in September 1971 I went to London again to make preparations for
financial o~erations for the front in the area of foreign operations.
' These are usually secret operations that concern themselves with detaining
wealthy people, who are on the enemies' side, for ransom.
There is an operation that I do not want to speak about now, and I will go
past that to another.
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Next week: Details of the Operations
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Weapons seized by French police from one of Carlos's apartments in Paris.
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The only photo of Carlos distributed by the French police; he is wearing
glasses. `
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"'Asim, I am going, good-bye." Carlos wrote these words to 'Asim al-
Jundi before they separated. The signature is Salim, one of Carlos's
many names.
(14-ZO Dec 79 pp 6-llJ .
(Text] Par.t III: "AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI Interviews the Man Who Is Wanted by
- ttie Police Everywhere in the World; Last Installment: Secrets of All~
Operations; the Zionist Edward Operation; the Hapoalim Bank Raid; Bomb in
a Drugstore; E1-A1 Airplane and Orly Airport; the Hague Operation; Mishal _
Mikarbil Was Carrying Very Important Documents When He Was Arreated in
Beirut; 'I Am Very Fond of Women, but There Is Only One Woman in My Life;
- Iler Name Is Sonya
Ou~~ colleague 'Asim al-Jundi resumes his interview with Carlos. In this
irstallment Carlos reveals for the first time the secrets of the operations
_ that he carried out in London, the Hague and Paris. He also reveals his -
relationship with the Japanese Red Army. Here is the last installment of
the interview.
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- Carlos went on to say, "The following operation consisted of planning the
assassination of an important Arab figure who was living in Landon.
"'t9~e ~~l~~n was ready by the end of October, but the eperation wae delayed
~ f~ littlc~ bec~zuse the required capabilitiea were not available.
"Tt was a surprise [for us] when the Black September Group attacked thia -
figure before we did, but they were not able to get him.
"I do not know how some of them managed to give British police my real name
and also my �-ersonal address.
"On the 22nd of December a special branch of Scotland Yard carried out an
operation against me.
"There were three groups with seven cars.
"British police do not usually carry weapons unless there is a special
_ occasion. On that day the officers and the members of the raidiR~ force
were armed.
"They came at 7:30 in the evening, but they went to another house where my
brother was. It was the house of friends whom I had actually v{sited twice
on that same day.
- "They drew their weapons against the people who were in the house. When
they searched the house and did not find me, they brought my brother with
them and came to the houae in the area of (Chisili). They entered the
house from an underground tunnel and surprised me in the living room while
I was watching television with my mother.
_ "It was approximately 10 o'clock, and they had a search warrant.
"They searched the house, but they did not find anything. The police had
been watching me day and night before the raid, and had been behind me at
every moment."
They Did Not Arrest Me That Day
"They did not arrest me that day because they did not find anything on me.
I had not until then used the name, Carlae, in well-known operations.
"For a11 practical purposes they did not find anything because I had another _
secret dwelling and another secret name which they had not discovered.
"I contacted some people in Europe, and I received a message from Beirut
' to cease [all actionJ and to wait.
"I made other contacts the following year, and I was also advised to bide
- my time. Matters went on like this till 1973.
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"(For all practical purposes I was carrying out other revolutionary
actians. Waiting applien only ro my activities in the Popular Front.)
"In July 1973 I returned once again to Beirut to renew [my] contacts.
"During the October War I returned to Europe to devote myself exeluaively
to [revolutionaryJ action. I would not b e, as I was in the past, a mere
university student who would devote some of his time for action. This was
the real beginning of Carlos."
The First Operation in London
"The first target was in London. The operation was to be against one of
the most significant Zionists in Britain.
"Joseph Edward, who is a very important f igure, w~s chosen because he was
Lord (Sief's) younger brother. He used to support Chaim Weizmann in
Manchester. Weizmann was responsible for the Zionist School there: This
was not just an ordinary school, but its function was rather to plan, to
. provide guidance and to disseminate the Zionist ideology.
"It was this school that had usurped Palestine for all practical purposes -
and had begun the establishment of Israel.
- "I've told you all this so you would know who Lord (Sief) is. Joseph
Edward (Sief) was his brother's political heir.
"One of my associates gave me an old Baretta gun with five bullets.
"When one is zrying to kill someone, one must uaually have two guns. One
gun will have a silencer, and the other gun will be a powerful one for
self defense if something unexpected should occur.
- "One must also have two hand grenades and a chauffeur at one's disposal.
"This is the usual method, but I did not do anything like that. I re-
~ ceived tha old gun and the five bullets only, and I could not even try
out the gun because one would need at least three bullets to try it out."
I Cleaned the Gun and...
- "I cleaned the gun, and I drove an old car which I parked in front of the
- house. I went directly into his room, but he was in the bathroom.
This was 6:45 on the 30th of December. I had forced the servant in front
of ine into the room, and when I did not find the man there, I ordered the
servant to summon his master.
"As soon as he opened the bathroom door, I fired three shots at him, but
only one bullet went off and hit him in the upper lip under the nose.
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"I usually aim tltree shots around the nosE, and those definitely kill.
- The servant fainted,and so I left with only a switchblade knife in my
pocket and two shots left in the old gun. It took me seconds to get into _
the car and drive away.
"The strange thing is that the man did not die. In spite of the fact that
his injury was fstal, they were able to save him in the hoapital. w'hen I .
decided to repeat my attempt and I obtained the necessary weapons 2 weeks
later, the man had left London and gone to Bermuda from which h2 never re-
- turned."
Raid on Hapoalim Bank
The raid on Hapoalim Bank followed. This is the Zionist Histradrut Bank,
and it is located in the ~enter of town. I raided the bank wxth plastic
bombs each one of which contained 200 grams of explosives.
"What is curious is that I threw the bomb to the teller's window from the
main door, but when it fell in front of the employee, it slipped on the
smooth floor before it exploded. The man jumped away and was not killed.
"The bomb destroyed part of the bank and some of the employees were only
injured. The operation produced significant clamor in the media, and I
escaped after that without being apprehended. I had with me a special re-
ceiver so I could listen to the radio communications of the police.
"I thus knew the locations and the directions of their patrols, and I
avoided them during my escape. I did not fall into the traps they had set
up for me."
What was more important than the information that Carlos was giving me was
the fact that I was with him almost on a daily basis.
He used to insist during our interviews that the real "terrorist" was a
person who lived for a long time. He used himself as an example [in a
demonstration of] considerable self-reliance and self-confidence.
"L,~~;k, my friend, I love life. I like to live life fully and passionately
because I do not know when I will be killed."
He went on to say, "I only kiiow that I will be killed or~e day, and I will -
cease to be.
"It is for this reason that you find me extravagant in my approach to life."
These were sad moments. Afterwards we were silent for a lon.g time. Suddenly,
he pulled himself t~gether and overcame the situation.
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I Returned to Lebanon Once Again
Carlos elaborated in his discourse on the other operations. His desire to -
talk was good.
"I went back to Lebanon for other operationa. It was c~incidental that
the Singapore operation which had been carried out by the Japanese Red Army
and the Popular Front had occurred at that time.
"After a waiting period I returned to Europe and sp~ecifically to Paris to
supervise a new operation with a group against tl~ree Zionist newspapers and
a rad io and a television station.
"[These are] the monthly magazine, LAROUCHE; the weekly magazine, MINUTE;
" and the French daily newspaper, L'AURORE.
Our French associates assisted us in this operation. They asked us to hit
the radio and television stations too, and we did.
"We b egan the operation at 2 am. We had waited until this hour so that
these places would be vacant because we did not want to kill employees and
workers.
- "You can imagine the difficulty of carrying out such a large operation at -
once and in the heart of Paris against three Zionist organizations and one
government organization, especially when the government organization was -
well guarded.
"But the ope~`ation did succeed. '
"One of the explosive devices did not function. This was the one that had ~
been placed in the radio and television station. The timing device was the
reason for the malfunction.
"In general, it was a splendid operation that had repercussions. Unfortu-
nately, there are some very private things in every operation that may not
b e related or written about for long periods of time, It is truly un-
fortunate.
"During this period one of the Japanese associates came to Paris, but he
was arrested at Orly Airport. This was in July of 1974. We had to carry
out two operations together: One was to secure his release, and the other
was to back up [the first operation] in case samething were to go wrong.
"The idea was to attack one of the embassies in Europe, to take the ambassa- _
dor intc custody and to negotiate an exchange."
The Hague Operation: An Unexpected Problem
[QuestionJ What nd~pened?
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- [Answer) The Japanese Red Army aent three coaunandoes to work with us on
thia operation for which their conanand was responsible. -
We conaidered several embasaies and the homes of ambaesedora, and we ob-
served the ambaseadore themselves. Then we decided to arrest the French
ambaseador in the Hague, the Netherlanda.
We arranged everyth�ng, and the Japanese came. We took the weapons and
all the necessary things, and we met the Japaneae in the afternoon.
~ Meanwhile an unexpected problem had occurred.
In South Korea Korean citizens of Japanese descent had tried to assassinate
= President Park in the theater, but the gun with which they had tried to kill -
him did not go off the first time. When it was fired the second time,
President Park had thrown himself down on the floor. His wife, however,
was shot and killed. ~
But how were we in the Hague related to what happened in South Korea? _
The problem quite simply was that the passport of the person who had tried
to.kill President Park in Seoul and the pasaport of one of the Japanese who
was with us in the Netherlands had originated from the same soiirce and had
beeTi prepared by the ~a.me method. The police had been looking for that
passport.
We thus sent all the Japanese associatea outeide the country, and we kept
- the three commandoes only.
We met on a Thursday, and we 3ecided to carry out the operation on the
following day.
The plan was that I and the leader of the commandoes would go to the Hague
to find out when the ambassador and his chauffeur came to the embassy.
After that the leader of the commandoes would go to Amsterdam and would
return at mid-day between ~ and 2 pm. We would wgit for the ambassador
to return from his h~use; we would accost him in front of the embassy; and
~ we would force our way into the embassy with him. The Japanese were to
carry out the operation; they had guns and hand grenades. -
Four hours were left to zero hour. I had to watch everything closely and
to ascertain the soundness af execution especially since the American
Embassy was close to the French Embassy and its guards were armed. _
The Japanese associates did not come at the appointed hour. I stayed around
the embassy until 4:30 pm, and then I stepped back about 100 meters because
I noticed that the guards of the American Embassy had begun to become sus- _
picious of ine.
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Carlos paused briefly before going on to say, "After five o'clock I heard
the noise of polic% cars and the sound of people running towarda the French
Embassy. I went to see what the matter was, and I heard [the sound of]
gunfire coming from the embassy. I also saw an injured policewoman carried
, out of the embassy. I waited for a few minutes with the bystanders until
the police surrounded the embassyo
"Then I called the ambassador's office from a public telephone, but I die-
covered that the police had cut the telephone linea.
"What liad happened was that [our Japanese) associates had arrived late be-
cat~se of a small problem that they had had. When they did not find me,
they saw the ambassador's car with the chauffeur only in it. They
threatened him and went inside the embassy with him. Then they went to
the ar~bassador's office. The ambassador had four busineasmen with him who
_ are directars of French oil companies.
"What is curious is the fact that an ordinary police car was aceidentally -
passing by at the moment they entered the embassy. Two men and a woman
dashed out of the police car and rushed to the ambassador's office, and
_ the gunFire took place.
"The leader of the commandoes hit the woman and one man, but the third
policem~n was able to hit the leader of the commandoes.
"[dhen I was unable to speak to them by phone according to plan, I returned -
- to Paris where I had to carry out another opera~ion.
"I arrived in Paris on Fr-Lday evening, and, as I found out on Saturday, the
ope~ration ir the Netherlands was a very simple one. The French had taken _
the ,Tapanese prisoner to rhe Netherlands where the exchange was to take
_ place, but they kept him in.the airplane. _
"On Saturday evening I began thinking about carrying out the other opera-
tion in Paria to he1F [our associates in the Hague].
"'rhere were two points:
"First, I had to alert the Japanese so that they would not leave the embasay -
at night because this would be dangerous.
"The second point was the difficulty of contacting my acquaintances for the
purpose of obtaining the necessary weapons and requirements. This was
difficult because it was the weekend.
"On Sunday morning the Dutch prime minister was apeaking to the press in
Erench and saying, 'The French Government is responsible for everything
that may happen.' He said that he may break diplomatic relationa with
France.
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"In ~dditior. to the fact that Che French had kept their prisoner in the
sirplane, which ia considered French property even in the Netherlande,
they did not send the Boeing 707 that was to carry our associates to the
yiddle East. We did not understand why the Japaneae had not tried to kill
their prisoners one after the otrer.
"For all practical purposes, a stalemate had been reached: The Fr~-:h had
threatened that they woulc' kill the prisoner, if the Japanese tried to kill
anyone."
'Itao 0'Clock: The Operation Failed
"It became clear by 2 pm on Sunday that the operation had failed. We knew
r.hat they were not going to surrender, but they had also not killed anyone
for one reason or another. It was clear that another Munich was going to _
take place. We had to carry out an assistance operation in spite of the
difficulty of obtaining the requirements for such an operation in one day.
"The only thing that we had was my own personal gun and two hand grenades.
"I thus decided at two o':.lock to carry out an Algerian-style operation.
This meant that I would throw the two bomb~ in an ordinary coffee house.
"I threw a bomb after five o'clock into the St Germain Drugatore in Paris.
'[`wo people were killed and 30 people were injured.
"Then we released a statement in the name of the Japanese Red Army; we also
informed the press agencies and the press about the operation; and we left
messages in several places. These messages warned the government that we
would carry out successive operations similar to that one if it did not
comply w~.th the demands of our comrades.
"The French Government feared that public opinion would become rancorous
because of its rigid posture. It sent the Boeing 707 on the following day
and gave the group their prisoner. They flew to the Middle East in the
airplane, and the operation was successful."
- I interrupted him.
_ [Question) Where and how did you succeed in forming all these combat
experiences?
(Answer) My experiences are strange and numereus.
My first combat experiences were in Caracas, Venezuela. There were con-
flicts among students and mischievous acts carried out against the police
during political demonstrations. There were Molotov cocktails .nd guns;
cars were set on fir.e; stones were thrown, etc.
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During this period I was a member of the young men of the Communist Party.
Our office was in the center of town, and when we wanted to stop traffic
in tlie city, we did that easily.
We were also engaged in training exercisea even though we were in achool. -
This was in 1963; it continued till mid 1966.
We did these things sometimes to cover for the guerrilla activities. We
would carry out operations in other locations so as to distract the police
and the security forces.
~j We used to go to the poor people in the mountains surrounding Caracas and
work in their midst among the workers and the lower proletariat. Our love
and our sympathy for the poor became firmly established in our hearts ever
- since those days.
The Raid on Pan American
The guerrillas used to intercept the police in case they tried to catch up
wi.th us.
Tfie first real raid of my life was the one I was involved in with a group
oF cvmrades against the offices of Pan American in Caracas. We threw in-
~ cm~;i;.~7~y bombs into that office.
After t:hat some of our associates went to the guerrillas in the mountains.
- Others, meanwhile, joined patrols in the city, I was among those, and I
became responsible for organizing the school.
- I conducted several training courses abroad, but I cannot discuas those. ~
I conducred a good training course in Britain, and I also joined a firearms -
club so I can get firearms training. I was 17 years old.
, [QuestionJ Where did you try to benefit from those experiences of yours
after the Hague operation?
[Answer] Very well. Let us go back to where we stopped. Our general
condition was unfavorable after the Japanese operation. Action now re-
quired more courage, more competence and good ~xperience. This meant that
we tieeded a strong organization also and more trained fighters. -
E1-A1 Airplane and Orly Airport .
We 111C~ to attack one of the Israeli E1-Al airplanes. Sirce our principal
office thea was in France, the decision was made that %ur operation would
be at Orly Airport.
We made plans for this operation which had to be carried out in December
1974,
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Everything was ready. I had preaented the plan to the organization for
approval, and we were all set. But we were surpriaed by a strike in the
F.1-A1 Company, and the airplanes were no longer eoming. -
Thus we had to wait several more weeks.
These are surprises that occasionally thruat themselves on the most meticu-
lous of plans.
_
We carried out the operation in January 1975. Everything was going well.
The entire group had been mobilized, and I was responsible for the opera-
tion, which was a very sensitive one. Ev~rything in it had been considered
and planned to the second.
The man who had to fire the RBG-7 fired two shells, but missed the plane.
It appears that this was one of the cases of legitimate human frailty.
He was a brave and an experienced man, but he must have been disturbed by
something when he fired the gun.
Afterwards Mishal Mikarbil said, "We must try again."
And so before the week was over, we tried again.
I surveyed. the airport to discover the new observation posts of the police,
and i found out that we could carry out another attack.
(We had more than one floor plan for the airport. I had studied that floor
plan for 6 consecutive months and had prepared several contingency plans.)
Une of these plans was that we attack [the airplane] from the visitors'
gallery.
~ The problem there was that after hitting the plane, one would not have a
chance to escape unless one took hostages and used them for his escape.
In such an operation many people could be killed, and we did not want that.
- At the same time it was a dangerous operation for our men.
The first operation was on Monday, and the first reconnaissance for the
second operation was on Thursday. Only I and the bazooka man did that.
We carried out the actual reconnaissance on Friday. This meant that we
carried out the plan without weapons. On Sunday we carried out the final
reconnaissance, that is, the final check-up of the scene of the operation.
I did not want the operation to be carried out that day because it was a
hoZiday, and many people have their outing by going to the airport. (They
go] to do some sightseeing and to amuse themselves. Airport traffic can
also change on a holiday. I would have preferred to wait until the
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following Thursday so that we would have more time and we could assure
ourseives of the practical details and observe the police. But Mishal
Mikarbil in~ieted that we haeten our etrike, and the other three men
aupported the ~wift action. On Sunday morning we conducted the laet and
the final check as I said, and we carried out the operation in the after-
noon.
Carlos added, "I accompanied the men to the airport, and I help~d them
- enter the building with the weapons. I went with them as far as the
terrace (the roof) and then they climbed by themselves. They were to
assemble the bazooka in the rest room.
What is curious is that there were many people in the rest room at that
time, and after one person left the rest room and they went in to assemble
the bazooka, the plane had begun its takeoff. `
The person who was in charge of the bazooka had to fire it from a distance
- of 25 meters, but when he got to the terrace with the bazooka, the airplane
was 350 meters, or a little more than that, away. The RBG that~we had
this time was an RBG-2; that is, it was smaller than the one we had before =
and it had a shorter range. I had asked the markaman to fire one shot only
because when he had fired the second time the laet time and misaed, he had
t~it a Yugoslav airplane that was standing in the airport. We were naturally
t~-~ing not to repeat this [incident].
At the same time a fight had broken out between our men and the police.
Our men took a group of hostages and returned with them to the restroom.
The government was forced to give them a Boeing 707 so they could fly to
the riiddle East. Meanwhile we were waiting in Paris. If the government
were to assume a rigid posture, we would embarrass it with other operations.
B~~t what did happen those days made us postpone or change a11 our plana.
At any rate there is no point in talking about these operationa as long
as they were not carried out.
Mishal Arrested in Beirut
rteanwhile Mishal Mikarbil was arrested in Beirut Airport where he had gone
to contact the front. He had many documents in his possession: Pictures,
names and plans.
This was a very seri~us matter, especially since he had no right to carry
these things.
Since he was known to the Israelis, his ordere were not to go directly from
Beirut to Paris or vice versa, but he did that too.
For all practical purposes, the customs police found more than one passport
in his suitcase. They searched his luggage, and they found the other
objects.
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He remained under arrest for 3 days, and then he was deported on the first
airplane to Paris. A measage was sent from Beirut Airport to notify French
police of his arrival time.
The French police thua picked him up. It seema that he was sub3ected to
different kinds of phyaical and mental torture. We felt that the French
police were behind us and that they were trying to take pictures of our
associates in the courae of their comings and goings. After coAanunicating
with the office, it was decided that we take swift action to change every- '
thing.
We expedited the departure of our associates. We sent everyone who was
related to us to other parts, and every day became mare difficult than ~
the day that preceded it.
Because of the position that he had not yet lost Mikarbil was able to
obtain some of the documents that pertain to the front. He went with one
of the associates and deposited the documents in his safety deposit box
in the bank as some kind of self protection.
It was then that I asked him to get these documents because he had no
right to put them in the bank. I had to go with him to the bank and to
bring the documents myself.
_ I did not see him after that until that night when he came with the police
to lead them to me. -
[Question] What about the Latin Quarter operation in Paris which ended in
the death of the Lebanese citizen, Mishal Mikarbil? _
[Answer] At 8:45 pm on the 27th of June 1975 the police knocked on my door.
I was in a small apartment in the Latin quart,er in Paris. The apartment
. belonged to two female students from Venezuela. Mishal Mikarbil used to
get in touch with me sometimes through these two young women.
That evening, one of the young women had gone on a trip, and the other was
going back to Venezuela. We had had a small farewell party for [the latter]
young woman who had left the apartment 3 hours before the police arrived.
At that time I was in the apartment with two young Venezuelan men and a
female friend of the two female students. One of them opened the door and
: said, "Police:" Agent (Hiran) and his assistant Officer (Douze) entered
- [the apartment].
They came in and asked about (Mayalara), the young woman who had gone on a
trip. We told them that she had left a week earlier.
We offered them a drink, and they sat [with us] briefly. Then the agent
asked to see our passports. We showed them to him, and he began to ask
questions.
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He asked me if I knew the Lebanese citizen, Mishal, and I replied that I
did not know that name. He said, "Mishal says that he knows you, and he
was the one who gave us this address."
Then the agent produced a picture of ine with Mishal that had been taken �
nenr the apartment that we were in.
1 askecl them, "What is the problem of this Lebanese man? Is it a narcotice
' probl.em or a terrorist problem?
Then I asked them to show me their [identification) papers, and they;showed
them to me. It was evident that they were counter-espionage intelligence
[agents]. I asked them where was this Miahal about whom they were talking.
Officer (Douze) then said that he was in one of the cars outside. I said,
"Bring him in here so that we may see whether or not I actually know him.
There may be some error in the matte�r.."
1'hey consulted with each ~ther briefly, and then Agent (Hiran) ordered the
officer to go out and get Mishal.
When I became certain that I had fallen into the trap, I prepared myself
to plunge into a battle.
F~.ft~en minutes later (Douze) came with Mishal Mikarbil and with Inapector
Uouati. ~verybody stood, and Agent (Hiran) asked me if I knew Mishal. I -
repliecl in the negative, and I atressed that I had never aeen him in my
life.
rlishal Was Perturbed
Mishal had actually changed a great deal. His misery was evident, and the
effects of exhaustion, emotional torture and even physical torture were
evident.
When Mishal asked me the same question, he feebly extended his right hand
to me and said in a broken voice, "This is the man to whom I had given the -
briefcase." (A few days after Mishal's return from Lebanon he had come to
me at this apartment while I was having lunch with the two young women.
He had a briefcase with him,)
Iie was nervous and perturbed, and he asked me to take the briefcase to him
at another address at 6 pm. It was then 2:30 pm.
When I refused to do this, wondering why he ahould give me a briefcase
that belonged to him, he pleaded with me arguing that he could not carry
it with him where he was going. He asked me to do him this favor, and he
showed me important papers that were in the briefcase. When I became angry
because he was carrying such documents, he became quite perturbed and he
told me the story of his arrest in Beirut. In a state of exhauation he told
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~ me that the police in Beirut had aeen those papers, and when I aeked him -
about other matters, he told me that he would tell me abouC them in the
evening when I gave him the briefcase.
When I walked out with the briefcase at six o'clock, someone was waiting
'~flr mP to take my picture with a telescopic lena, or ao it seemed. I
would be identified by the briefcase. This meant that Mishal was under
police observation, and perhaps this was [because of] his behavior. -
Zdhen Mishal made this statement and pointed at me with his hand, I sensed _
that this would be the decisive moment. I pulled my gun--a 7.62 ~ -
Russian (Tukariv) and not an ordinary 7.65 mm gun. This is a very powerful
and a precise weapon that officers usually carry. -
I fired first at Donati because he had tried to draw his gun, and I hit
hi.m in his left temple. He was known for being a fast draw, but I was
faster than he was.
Then I moved and shot (Douze) between the eyes. I acted quic~iy and shot
(Hi.ran). Suddenly the young woman was between us. She 3umped in fear, and
I pushed her aside and leaned over on my side and shot him. I hit him
under the ear. All these shots were fatal.
I Carried Out His Death Sentence
There was no one left but Mishal. He came towards me, puttin~ hia har_ds
_ on his face because he realized at that moment that anyone who breaks down
in thig line of work is er.ecuted. These are the rules of the work in which
we had been engaged.
When he came in front of ine, I shot him between the eyes. He fell to the -
floor, and I shot him again in his left temple before leaving the rc~~. I
jumped with my briefcase from the third floor of Building No 9 where we
_ were to the first floor of Building No 11.
There were three bullets in the gun, and I also had an emergency supply t
of aaanunition. I put the gun in my back [pocketJ, and I walked normally.
It so happened that that day was the turn of the quarter we were in to
have the lights out in the street, and the darkness helped me conceal
myself.
There were policemen and bystanders to my right, but I paid no attention -
to them because if I did, they would have been able to kill me. They had
automatic rifles. I took a risk and did not look at them. I walked like
an ordinary person who had nothing to do with what was happening upstaira
� [in the building].
What also helped me was the fact that the entire operation had taken place
in a few seconds--only six seconds. The police who were outside could not
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imagine that I would have had anything to do with th~ altercation that had
taken place, especially since I was coming out of another building.
After I had walked approximately 100 metere from the place, I heard gun-
fire. I did not know who was firing ahota, but moat probably the police
had suspected someone else other than myself.
Although I had been very calm and very cool during the battle, I etill feel
somewliat nervous whanever I talk about it.
_ [The experience of] fighting, killing or being killed in the mountains and
in ~ther areas is qui e different from [that experience] in the city.
(There], everyone around you is an enemy; there are many enemies, and you
are [only] one person.
I Am Not a Professional
_ Carlos went on to say, "I am not a professional killer. Snuffing out life
from two human eyes that are staring at you is not easy especially if you
take four lives in six seconds as I did.
"You can imagine how calm my nerves were. I jumped from the third floor
to the passage of the next building, and then I continued to walk upright
as ~hough the matter were of no concern to me at all."
- I recall that wtien he was talking to me about the operation, it was after
3~m. We were alone in the house. After he finished telling me about
this operation, he appeared to me to be somewhat nervous. His face became
darker; it became flushed; and he began to breathe audibly.
I went to the refrigerator, and I got two cold bottles of 7-Up. I gave
him one, and we drank them quietly. He calmed down, and he apologized for
being perturbed. The memory of this operation was still painful for him
especially since he had had a strong relationship with Miahal Mikarbil for _
a long time: They had worked together; they had fought together; they had ~
lived together; and they had been exposed to danger together. Suddenly he
found himself compelled to kill him in this tragic manner. -
I Like Good Food and Cigars
Then I asked him aboi~t the Vienna Operation, the operation of the arm of
the Arab Revolution. He told me its details before I interrupted him to
ask about the other s3de of Carlos, his personal life.
[QuestionJ As you say, you are not a professional [killer]. What about
your other side? What do you like and dislike in life, for example?
- Carlos smiled before answering. '
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~Anewer] I like good food, good drink, good cigare r~nd good ahoes. Yes,
I am an epicure.
Epicurus was a good man.
He liked the good life, but the Greeka interpreted his life in the manner
that you know of.
I like dancing parties. I also like the theater, and especially the clas-
sical theater. But I do not like to possess thinga. What I have is for
me and for others.
But I would also in one moment give up all my worldly posaesaions for the
cause and for the revolution. As far as I am concerned, the revolution is
the strongest of elixirs.
He went on to say, "I like women; I mean I like the good life and not only
sex.
"Finally, I am very fond of friendship."
[Question] Is there a big love story in your life?
[Answer] There is no big love story in my life. I take love easily like
any mature student in a school.
I can love more than one woman at the same time. ' -
Sonya Is My Great Love
(Question] Does this mean that there is no real love story in pour life?
[Answer] There is one. A Cuban young woman. She is Sonya, and we have
a daughter. But we did not get married officially.
[Question] Do you love her or do you love your daughter?
[QuestionJ Did she not marry after you? �
[Answer] She was married before I met her.
[Question] And then?
[Answer] I don't know, but I do know that I can exercise self-Control
whenever I want to.
I like women very much, but I always like to have control, that is, the
necessary power of control.
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With Sonya I lost control [of the aituation]. She is embedded in my heart,
and I will never be able to remove her.
[Question] We talked about the World Revolution, but we did not talk about
world terrorism. Do you think that the expression terroriam applies
accurately to your situation?
[Answer] I do not like to beat about the bush in such matters. This is
the truth. ~
Then he asked me this question, "Has not thia interview come to an end yet? -
Have we not yet finished with the questions?"
I replied, "Let us atop then at this point."
- Carlos spent the night at my house that night.
It is curious that he cannot sleep unless he covers his eyes becauae he
_ cannot toleraCe any light from any source when he is trying te sleep.
Whenever he is undertaking a new operation, he tries to sleep so he can
think. He does not usually go into a deep alumber for hours because he
would be drawing up his plans at that time.
Cario:s is leaving tamorrow after having left with me all the secreta of
his life. I may never see him again.
_ During our last night he brought a collection of hia pfctures and told
me to choose one.
I know that his picture is wanted in a11 parts of the world, but he in-
sisted that I choose one. I chose one pictur~e that was simple and clear.
He wrote on it in his delicate and precise handwriting: "For a wonderful
poet; from an apprentice poet. Carlos."
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- -
i
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u~~ Sr 5-~1 J~(~ 5,.~:c I~.w ~J r,~;Y ~~It;~
The building raided by Scotland Yard in Baywater Drive in the heart of
London and in ~ne of whose apartments Carlos had hidden. "They did not
arrest me because they did not find anything on me. I had another safe
house."
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.
' ~
,
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, (tf~ yC M 3!'~{ . . w~ t C,.a`::. , t ~ . 'Y, ~,5~ L'~
Hijacking one of the airplanes. The police searched for the fingerprints
of Carlos, but....
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J
_ ,
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~r~~~ 41 �,~~i ~,b~1i 4~,~ ~J~ s.~~l~
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" Unclear profile shot taken by the French police and said to be of Carlos.
- It differs somewhat from the one real photograph which AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI
published and which showa Carlos in a front view.
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< r-
i ~ �
.
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L .:,2:~;`.' : ~a , 4 _
.~71~~..`~tY Y ~
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" ~'?~J~ ~`S' J"~~ ?j'!~I n 4;r,; 'l~�~'w~~ �J',y~~ ~,c .
[Photo caption on following page]
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This is another profile ahot said to be of Carlos and taken by a photographer
~~t the SIPA (Presa] Agency at the Algiers Airport following the Vienna opera-
tion. It also differe from the r~al.photo of Carloa publiehed by AL-WATAN -
AL-' ARA:B I .
COPYRIGHT: 1979 AL-WATAN AL-'ARAB I
8592
CSO: 4802 -END-
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