VISIT OF AMSAA GRILL FLAME PARTICIPANTS TO SRI, 21-22 AUGUST 1979

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: STARGATE
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 6
• Document Creation Date: November 4, 2016
• Document Release Date: June 29, 1998
• Sequence Number: 11
• Publication Date: September 19, 1979
• Content Type: MFR

Approved For Release 2001/04/02 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22
August 1979 (U)
1. (S-NF) The four members of the AMSAA GRILL FLAME Core Group visited
SRI on 21-22 August 1979 for discussions with the SRI staff and Hella
Hammid. Details of these discussions are presented in the following para-
graphs.
2. (S-NF) Hella Hammid has participated in the SRI remote viewing (RV)
program for the past 5-6 years. The core group was most anxious to meet
and spend some time with Hella as we had heard so much about her and the
successful RV work she has done and, most importantly, we have had very
little contact with other remote viewers due to the nature of our
participation and were looking forward to discussing our ideas and feelings
about RV with another viewer.
a. (S-NF) Hella briefly discussed the three weeks she spent in
Egypt with Steve Schwartz. The RV procedure she used in Egypt was basic-
ally coordinate RV in time instead of space; i.e., given that you are
at a site, you are provided with a date to view, such as 200 BC. Hella
didn't know much more about the results of the Egypt experience than we
did as she had not yet gotten any after the fact feedback from Steve
Schwartz.
b. (S-NF) Hella originally participated in SRI's RV program as a
"control subject", basically as a personal favor to Russ Targ, whom
she'd known for several years. She approached the area of psychic
phenomena with a positive, willing attitude, which has expanded as her
involvement has expanded; however, she is in no way an absolute believer.
As a matter of fact, out-of-the-body experience (OOBE) scares her. She
and Russ went to a two day OOBE experiential seminar led by Robert Monroe
as part of the Esalen experience and she said she slept through the whole
thing, which is very much out of line with her normal patterns. (Russ
was very hesitant to discuss his "success".)
Classified by: MSG, HQDA(DAMI-ISH)
dtd 7 Jul 78
Review on: 7 Jul 98
Approved For Releas
1221979
0.4 f 2 y A-l DP96-00788R002000240011-3
 Approved For Release 2001/04/02 _.[A-RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22 August 1979 (U)
c. (S-NF) Hella's approach to RV is quite interesting. She tries
to avoid focusing on the fact that she will be doing an RV session prior
to the scheduled meeting time and then uses only about a 5 minute quiet
time to relax but still stay alert. Her normal sleeping pattern is to
sleep 6 hours at night and take a short afternoon nap; thus, if she has
an afternoon session, she will take a short nap prior to the session so
as not to fall asleep during the session. Hella views lying down with
her eyes closed; however, as each visual impression comes to. her, she
opens her eyes and draws that image. After the visual/drawing portion of
the session, she lets her other senses come into play and quite often
perceives the sounds, smells, temperature conditions, etc. at the target
site. This raises an interesting point Hella made about her session
preliminaries: she always assumes a body position which is very comfort-
able so that body sensations associated with the room, couch, etc. will
not intrude or influence her ability to experience physical sensations
during the session. She mentioned that she is always very aware of her
bodily state and, if she did not feel physically good, she would not
expect to have a good session.
d. (S-NF) Hella works practically exclusively with Russ Targ as
her interviewer. They have been good friends for a long time and she
relies heavily upon him to suggest approaches, perspectives and directions
for her participation, particularly during sessions. This was interest-
ing to note as she often does sessions alone at home when called to do
so. Her dependence on Russ' guidance and her implicit trust of his
judgment on the way to do things and on the outcome of different approaches
and techniques was very apparent, because, when Russ was out of the room,
she was hesitant about making her own assessment on how well she did in
one sensory mode or another or in what areas she was particularly
accurate. It's as if Russ consfiitutes her self-assurance. Hella also
indicated that she derived a lot of help and confidence in her RV
abilities by talking with Ingo.
e. (S-NF) When we discussed our triple sessions (where the 3 viewers
participate in sequential sessions on the same target with feedback and
discussion among the entire core group delayed until after the third
session), Hella became very enthusiastic because it sounded like so much
fun to be able to talk things over with other viewers. We indicated
that this sort of discussion tended to serve as a sort of feedback of
its own, especially when the official feedback packages were rather
limited in detail. She thought the "triple" was a marvelous way to
handle these conditions and stated she would really like to do that type
of sequential session herself. (No real reaction from Russ on this
point in regards to doing this at SRI).
Approved For Release 2001/04/02 2CIA-RDP9 ?db-A
 Approved For Release 2001/04/02 CIA-RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22 August 1979 (U)
f. (S-NF) As mentioned previously, Hella draws throughout the session
as the visual impressions occur to her. During a later discussion about
drawing, she explained that by drawing the imagery immediately after it
occurred, she could "let it go" and go forward to perceive other image
with a "clear screen"; she did, not want to delay drawing until the end of
the session and possibly embroider the basic visual impression by
analytic or memory overlay, i.e., noise. This particular insight is very
valuable, but has to be considered in light of each viewer's personal
preferences. Throughout the course of our discussions, it became fairly
obvious that Hella is a compulsive doodler. Whenever Russ was talking,
she always had a piece of paper in her lap, constantly doodling. When-
ever she returned from a break in the discussions and sat down without
any paper, she became visibly restless and uncomfortable within a few
minutes. She would then get up and get some paper and start doodling,
becoming immediately more relaxed. One additional point she made about
her drawing is that she frequently draws things 90? off on the horizontal
or vertical plane,
g. (S-NF) Hella asked us if we used psi in our daily lives and was
very disappointed when we told her we did not. She stated that she
always had feelings about people before she began RV; however, she now
trusts her feelings to be fairly accurate instead of just coincidental
and she has also set up numerous situations with her friends and family
to try them out. She also uses these instincts in her photography work
and says she can sense when a shot is right. However, her instincts
tend to work in situations where she doesn't want them to, like riding
in a subway and starting to receive information on the other passengers.
(None of us asked the obvious question.)
h. (.S-NF) Hella is a very warm, engaging and very alive woman. Our
discussions with her were both pleasant and profitable. She also seemed
to enjoy them and expressed her enthusiasm about meeting again to
continue the exchange.
3. (S-NF) Manny Gale had met with Russ and Hal in the morning of
21 Aug 79. Their discussions centered on the earlier visit of the Army
Science Board (ASB) to SRI and Russ and Hal's frustration with the ASB's
criticism of their evaluation procedure and statistical analyses, since
they had not presented their methodology to the ASB. They requested
that Manny set up a meeting between them and Drs. Tang and Snyder to
discuss their methodology. Tang and Snyder are the experts on the ASB
in this area and Russ and Hal feel that the other board members are
unlikely to understand the relevant statistics or be able to agree on
any methodology. We understand that this meeting is being set up, but
have no idea when.
NOT :E1 ; .B . O. F.up I. T_ NA IONALS
Approved For Release 2001/04/b`IYAS- nn788R002000240011-3
 Approved For Release 2001/0.4/a2-:;CIA=,RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22 August 1979
4. (S-NF) Russ was still very upset about our Phase I Interim Note,
even after a prior phone conversation with the Project Officer. Russ'
concern was that we didn't come right out and say RV was absolutely great,
etc. and he was worried that people reading the report would become non-
supportive of the SRI effort. Afterhaggling over the report for two
days, he finally dropped the subject when it was pointed out to him that
if we had come out with wide-eyed enthusiasm about RV, based on our
statistics, we would be out of business by now. This seemed to have
finally penetrated and he hesitantly agreed that the report was written
as it should be. At that point, he also admitted that Manny Gale had
commented very positively on our report to him and Hal the previous
morning. We also reminded Russ about the security limitations of tele-
phone conversations with any of us.
5. (S-NF) We very generally discussed Wayne's methodology for the
LaBerge task with Russ. He was, at best, unenthusiastic about it and
indicated he had not seen Wayne's ASB presentation (a fact which we
were fairly sure was not true and later confirmed as not true). Russ
discussed Ed May and Beverly Humphrey's work at SRI and also indicated
some work along similar lines was being done by Dean Robert John and
Brenda Dunne at Princeton. They have extracted 40 factors (essences?)
from target material and are apparently analyzing their frequency and
determining probability of occurrence (rarity?) Sounds interesting.
6. (S-NF) We discussed the use of the box technique for RV and how to
set one up with Russ and Hella (Hella did all of the box RV sessions).
Russ indicated that he had no compelling rationale for the 4x4, 16 bin
arrangement other than it nicely represents a geographical coordinate
grid (and he had planned to later use it for a bookcase and that was the
size he needed). Russ had a number of ideas about what sort of objects
should be used in the bins based on their experience:
a. (S-NF) Objects should not be personally distasteful to the
viewer. For instance, Russ had selected a gun as one of the original
objects, but never used it after remembering the fact that Hella hates
guns and might have reacted very negatively to the experiment if a gun
had been included. Hella strongly concurred with this point.
b. (S-NF) Objects should be instantly recognizable; i.e., the viewer
should be able to identify the object in a split-second glance by more
than just its name. As an example, Russ had also thought about using
a wrench in one of the bins, but Hella would not have known what it was
just by looking at it; only after it-had been identified as a wrench
by someone else would she have known what it was.
NOT. l'ELE .;ABLZ O i+.Q i . YATIOIYAL i
Approved For Release 2001
8R002000240011-3
(U)
 Approved For Release 2001/(, 4L92 : CIA-RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
Ilk
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22 August 1979 (U)
c. (S-NF) Objects should be easily distinguishable from each other
in terms of shape, texture, etc. This is an amazingly difficult re-
quirement to fulfill, even though it sounds relatively easy to do. For
example, SRI had a compass and a pair of eye glasses in their object
array. They sound very different, but a description of round, glass,
smooth is common to both objects. Based on their experience, Russ and
Hella thought it would be very difficult to do a box RV series containing
geometrical shapes only. Along these same lines, Russ indicated that
similar shapes should not be used in adjacent bins. After having selected
what they believed to be 16 very distinct objects, Russ said they went
crazy when they put them out on a table together and started seeing all
of the similarities, such as the compass and eyeglasses. Trying to
arrange the objects in the box to maintain as much distinctness as
possible took a long time. Russ also suggested toy stores and hardware
stores as being good sources of objects, again remembering the idio-
syncrasies of the viewer(s).
7. (S-NF) We discussed the APG target pool of twenty sites with the
location of the reactor as the objective. Russ and Hella thought this
would be a good experiment. Their only real concern was about the
precision of the coordinates provided to them; any coordinate errors
could be very detrimental to the entire experiment. They also thought
that other methods besides coordinates might prove interesting, such as
grid search, map dousing and pendulum techniques. Their suggestions
along these lines were quite surprising, since they had not seemed
that open to innovative location techniques prior to this. It's possible
that their association with Steve Schwartz has broadened their perspec-
tives.
8. (S-NF) We discussed the idea of more work to look for tunnels.
Russ expressed his frustrations with their past work in this area and
his distaste for taking it on again. When they had done their previous
work, they found tunnels which were known and the reaction was "so
what?". They got virtually no feedback on the new tunnel locations
they provided; no one was interested in following up the new data.
Therefore, SRI believes that the considerable amount of time and effort
they put into the tunnel work was a total waste. Russ mentioned that
the Marines had doused for VC tunnels and caches with some success and
had done some experiments at Quantico which were also successful. A
write up of this and other interesting dousing work is found in a new
book, The Divining Hand by Christopher Bird. Russ is adamant about
not doing any further tunnel work unless a response and follow-up is
assured.
NOT, Fu;LZAS. L:w T.O 07=1d-:T NNA T.I O1`dAL
Approved For Release 2001/040Q . ALA=RDP96-00788R002000240011-3
 Approved For Release 2OO11041Q. gL4-RDP96-OO788ROO2OOO24OO11-3
DRXSY-DS 19 September 1979
SUBJECT: Visit of AMSAA GRILL FLAME Participants to SRI, 21-22 August 1979 (.U)
9. (S-NF) We discussed our null target sessions with Russ, Hal and
Hella. They were frankly appalled at the idea of doing such a thing.
They considered it a form of outright trickery against the viewer which.
could be very detrimental to the process and, most significantly, could
tend to destroy the trust between the viewer and experimenters as well
as do a number to the viewer, since in effect he has been asked to view
something and yet denied that something to view at the same time. Hella
was particularly negative about the idea of such a thing occurring and
indicated she would not participate in a series of sessions even having
been told a null target was a possibility.
10. (S-NF) Russ and Ed May were very interested in our use of video
taping and thought it was a good idea. They might even try it themselves.
11. (S-NF) We discussed in general terms, due to the lack of time, the
new evaluation procedure put together by Wayne's group with Ed and
Beverly. They were very interested in our approach and Ed expressed
his desire to stop at AMSAA and discuss it further when he is out this
way in October.
12. (S-NF) We briefly discussed the training program for the INSCOM
viewers. Other than stating that things were going well, Russ did not
relay any details. Rather, he was totally exercised about the evalua-
tion of six beacon sessions done by one of the INSCOM viewers. Using
Ed May's concept evaluation procedure, Beverly correctly matched four
out of the six and switched the remaining two. Russ was beside himself
as he could not understand how she could have possibly missed the last
two. The two targets in question were a large stone building with
columns (we don't know the identity of the building) and a cemetery.
Russ indicated that during the session on the building, the viewer made
a drawing that looked exactly like the building. When we were finally
shown the original drawing, it turned out that the drawing of the build-
ing was one of seven or eight small drawings on a page and there were
other pages of similar amounts of drawing, Not having seen the transcript
or concept evaluation list, it's hard to make a real judgment, but it
seemed reasonable to us that Beverly might not have put the same
emphasis on the one small drawing as did Russ and, as we pointed out,
the drawing could also represent a mausoleum at a cemetery. Russ was
not at all receptive to our comments. In later discussions with Ed and
Beverly on the topic, they indicated that Russ had really come down
hard on them for not correctly matching the last two, but that they
stood firm by their results.
DISTRIBUTION:
John Kramar
ApproQe F W e 1@9 2001/
AMSAA GRILL FLAME
CORE GROUP
LI,A BI . + .... ' I N rTAT.L0NALS
NOT
0788ROO2000240011-3