AFTERNOON SESSION... THE BOARD RECONVENED AT 1515HOURS,24 FEBRUARY 1962 WITH JUDGE PRETTYMAN ABSENT

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200080012-9
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 35
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 5, 2003
• Sequence Number: 12
• Publication Date: February 24, 1962
• Content Type: COURTFILE

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A,kTB NNOON SESSION
. . The Board reconvened at 1515 hours, 24 February 1962
In your testimony you indicated that sometime
during the first night after he arrived in Moscow, Mr. Powers was administered
a d~`ug of some kind -- a hypodermic injection of some kind in the buttocks.
The question is, have you any evidence from
your relationship with Powers as to whether or not he was subjected to
II
GM-HAL:BUI.L: In your relationship with him;, you find no
indication whatever that there may have been.
0
No, sir. I think this would be hard to determine
but the only thing that I found, as I mentioned, namely: the patches of
unstable memory for certain periods -- loss of memory.
GLIERAL BULL: The only thins you have been able to testify
in connection with this is this injection.
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GENERAL BULL: Followed by a whole day of interrogation.
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Followed by a half day of very marked uncertainty
of events. The latter half of that second day, as you recall, he was on
a ride around Moscow, and he remembered that.
GENERAL BULL: But he doesn't know what happened that morning.
He doesn't.
MR. HOUSTON: He said he might have been interrogated that morning.
II
He has the impression that he was interrogated by
some high ranking officials, but he is not certain. I questioned him rather
thoroughly to find out if this half a day that he is unsure about might have
been longer -- to find out for sure whether it might have been a day and
a half or two days and a halt. He is relatively certain that it was only
a half day, since during his next interrogation there was a calendar which said
the 3rd of May in the office in which he was in and he was able to reconstruct
days with the exception of that half a day, so he is reasonably sure it was
only a period of a half day. Now if there was real confusion, most anything could
have happened, such as hypnotism, and he doesn't remember anything.
MR. BROSS: Apart from this half a day, or apart from I
believe the second day after his appearance in Russia -- apart from that
experience we have just been talking about -- I believe you have talked with
him at some length about his experiences under interrogation while in prison
and you asked him about his physical reaction and symptoms and I think he
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told you in some detail he was nervous, had a stoiuuch disorder and other
reactions. Were you, from these, able to draw a coherent picture of, or
were you able to form a reasonable opinion as to what had happened to him,
or forma any opinion as to whether there were other gaps or whether his
orientation of his physical reactions and his orientation of what he did
or was asked to do and the routine Qf the prison -- were all these left to
his opinion as to whether there was any likelihood that there were other
gaps during which he couldn't recall what was going on?
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No, I can't say that there were any other saps that
cane to ray attention.
I. BROSS: 4ould you have any positive feelin; or opinion as
to whether there were not any gaps?
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I can only say there weren't any major gaps such
as that morning gap. There were, in describing; the symptoms for example,
he was uncertain whether they occurred in the fall, spring, or winter, which
may or may not be significant. It was more retrograde. It was more a very
fuzzy kind of memory regarding the events leading up to the flight in
certain respects such as his briefing, but also in the period of say January,
February, March -- certain things regarding his wife and his --
MR. BROSS This is in 1960, before the flight:
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That is right, but as far as what happened to him
in prison I did not get the feelin;,, other than this first morning, of anything
that came to my attention as a potentially significant gap of memory. His
symptome made sense in terms of their development. He can remember the
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sy!a~f;orne, what was done with him, anti the things he remei.iuers were appropriate,
medically speaking.
Gk;IWAL DULL; Purely in the field of hypnosis, first, are you
an expert in this field?
0
standpoint.
No, I em not.
GUBRAL BULL; Do you know auythinLi about it?
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GBIMkAL DULL; If during this period after his arrival in
1oscow and before the interrogation began on the third day, he had been
subjected to hypnosis would it have been possible for them to have put
the thoughts in his mind as to what he testified to under the interrogation?
I would expect it might be possible for them to do this in certain specific
C ERAL BELL. For a lojiU sequence of events?
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Yes I know something; about it from a theoretical
First of all, qualifying this, I ran not an expert.
I feel this would be Post unlikely.
b1R. 110USTQNN; I would like to address some of these same
GENERAL BULL; That is what I intend to do.
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with the ,Teat assurance he had of the details of events at the point that
his flight became in trouble and all details of his desent in contrast
of his not beinZ so sure of events leadin; up to the 2lil;ht itself and
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and the first day or two after arriving in Moscow. I rac struck with the
clarity with which he seems to remember that. This could be because of
the terrifying aspects of it which would bring it very much in his
awareness,, but it wasn't in keeping with the other degrees of confustion
both before .and after.
MR. 33ROSS: Could you compare his ability to recall what happened
during the actual destruction and fall of the plane and let's say his
appearance in the couttroem in Moscow during his trial?
0
MR. BROSS; You said that the contrast that you found in his
ability to recall the actual incident involvint; his escape from the airplane
on one hand and the circumstances of the followint couple of days - in other
words, this incident stood out in very sharp relief in his mind as contrasted
with whathappened during the ensuing couple of days. I was wondering if
it stood out in anysharper relief than say other equal dramatic or significant
episodes in his life?
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trial in detail but I will say along these lines he seems to have a very
clear neinory of events just preceding and at the time'of his release.
MR. BROSS; Another question which is relevant is whether
there is any other episode in_this entire event on which Powers has been
interrogated and questioned as much as he has on this particular incident.
MR. HOUSTON; I think I can make a general estivate. This answer
is no. Everyone who has talked to him have concentrated on this particular
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MR. BROSS. Well, in the absence of a hypothetical question
which I will presume is what we are going to try with the next witness,
I can't think of further factual information that we could reasonably ask,
unless you, yourself, can think of some statement or reaction which, having
reviewed the situation in the light of the question that we are now concerned
with, unless there is some new thought that occurred to you that is
particularly germane to this.
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you a few minutes ago and in relation to this mainly, is he aware of why
everyone is so interested in this period of time from a national standpoint
or does he see this as a challenge to his honesty and integrity. The question
that comes to my mind is -- and I thought t&is over last night -- was that
if there were any even haziness about certain aspects of it or doubts I
would expect it might be difficult for him to admit to himself at this time
that it were so if he thought this honesty of his story were being challenged.
In other words, does he know that the interest in this is from a national
defense standpoint and not whether he is telling the truth or not?
14R. HOUSTON: It really comes back to the same thing that one
way or another his integrity would be challenged.
MR. BROSS: I should think it very unlikely that anyone was going
to forget this particular incident.
G&MRAL BULL: I think that probably would complete for us What
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elaboration in the field of hypnosi o and the aazwer is priimaarily no.
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Thbt is the only thins we do not feel, medically
:,pea mnw, our iaveetij ation is coiupleto from the standpoint of electroenc,:; halo;;raph
and certain paycholo;;ical teotin~; which could 1,o3:S ibly uitmicr :;ona C .ueatioima
re; ardini; this memory loss as to whether it i;. a real logic or whether
there haw been some brain da za'j%'e. That you can't detcr_:si ne without the test:;.
1ni. B O $; Certainly lay tonder::taixdin; is that all tiie teat:imo;iv
we have heard co far has indicates G O;iit rE l#iti v ly l:: i!Ur ; eficiancles in
Povera' physical condition; has indicated that he is in relatively wood
physical condition; that he is cosapletely in coxe and of hii:saelf; that he is
in possession of hiN faculties; that he has adjusted to his enviror.u:ieit;
that he i3 oriented and iaa%es aenee. iie is actin6; as a responsible person.
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Ga;EBAL BULL. Than;: you very ;:such. You may step down.
i?11. =iOU3TO.",. roe don't have the Jude to Swear
iris testimony is i%oia to be in the area of exert opinion.
I~;P. BROSS: :ie took Kelly Johnson's statement snawora. I
preoene we could ask the Doctor to certify the statement in affidavit fors if
this becomea desirable.
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I would :goy it is consistent with ,.y inpression.
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I I . hOUST011: I think that will be desirable and we will rake c:
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DiR. 1, UST0T1: Give your full name, and position for the record.
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I am Chief of the Behavioral
Ac-tivitie3 Branch of TSD -- Technical Services Division -- of the DD/P.
I represent the chemistry and psycholo;ical support and research arm of the
clandestine services of the AGeacy and I presume the reason for interest
in ray appearinli before you is that the Chemistry and P ycholoEical Divisions
of T,M have been engaged for a number of years in the study of brainwashinG
activitica of the Coimgwiisto, with emphasis on the Russians, and have been
concerned on the other side with trying; to inveetidate hypnosis, druGs,
and, the use of professional paycholol;ical and psychiatric techniques to
produce or to influence a person to the extent that one mizht determine his
behavior and even deterr:iine neiaories.
Our inforrantion on the brainwaehini study canes primarily
from individuals who have Gone through extensive Soviet and Chinese prizort
expericricer, and also # o:. iu 3: a:. t: Liao ao o :ice uef~ciors who had
,:oiic _ YLO~` cd e of what aaa uoiie in the Soviet Union.
GEP1ERAL BULL: You say, "who had"?
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Who had knowledge of the fact that not much waw
bei lG done from the standpoint. of using; professional p ycholo,;ical or
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hypnotic or drug effects in a pxison interrogation situation.
On other words, if I may zumnarizo, our general summary
is that the Soviets have not been systematically using hypnosis or drugs
for interrogation of prisoners and have a general prejudice against using
it that is as strong as our own Agency has towards the use of these techanique:,
partly a distrust of the experts as much as a moral considdration.
MR. HOUSTON: Distrust of the results that they have obtained?
altitude with almost vertical desent in a matter of minutes and this is
the discrepancy before is, so he is familiar with that in some detail.
MR. BROSS: I presume somebody will formulate a hypothetical
continuing rougbtly on its path and then disappearing from observation.
the other hand we had Mr. Powers testimony of the event happening at
be obtained. My feeling is that the possibility of his having been induced
to produce a completely fallacious story if almost zero.
MR. iIOUSTON: Let we put that a little more specific.
Gsi RAL BULL; To what extent is the Doctor familiar with the
details of the episode, because that he3to do with rather lengthy questions
which we would like him to eventually address himself to.
MR. llOUSTOIt: Before we brought the Doctor in I explained to
him the fact there was firm information on a 36 minute period on the plane
Brill be asked for his opinion.
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I think, it extremely unlikely that they attempted
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MR. HOUSTON: Xnowini that Mr. Powers, upon his capture, was
taken into Soviet hands and was subject to Soviet interrogation for
approximately three months with no access by friends, American officials
or anyone but Russians, in your opinion do you think it is possible
that there could be eliminated from his memory and mind a flight desce t
involving 36 minutes and certain maneuvers to a point of fairly low
altitude and that there be replaced in his mind something that he would
be testifying to it as his belief of the truth, that immediately upon
the event happening which damaged the plane, the plane thereupon descended
acid he would be able to describe graphically and in detail the circumstances
of that descett?
of any action on the part of a group of interrogatoos using any possible
interrogation aids.
GMjERAL BULL: Including hypnosis?
1 :1
If I may qualify this a bit, part of my conviction
comes from the fact that he has been interrogated under fairly permissive,
friendly conditions on this episode for a period of nearly two weeks and
there has been no sign of his being uncomfortaU a or showing excitement
about the story that he has presented.
MR. HOUSTON: Would this be on the grounds that they might
have indoctrinated him on a temporary story.
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to indoctrinate him on a story. Assuming that they did, it would have been
broken by us in ten days. We would hire at least gotten a pretty sharp and
marked evidence in terms of behavior that he himself showed that would have
made it clear by this time.
MR. HOUSTON: A further question you might not feel qualified
to answer but I will put it to you. In trying to indoctrinate someone with
a story, is it in your experience difficult to indoctrinate a complicated,
somewhat technical story that without inconsistencies would stand up?
It is impossible.
GENERAL BULL: It can't be complicated if the technique is to
be used successfully?
brainwashed Americans from both Soviet and Chinese experiences have been
most carefully debriefed by us -- my Group of psychiatrists and medical
doctors. The closest that one can come to saying their attitude has been
changed is where the state, "They really treated me quite well," as they try
not to let you see the manacle r.iarks on their hands, but this is a very
detailed story that is being considered here.
G]IEIiAL BULL: With a complicated sequence.
The most brainwashed individuals -- the most
Yes. It would just be impossible.
GENERAL BULL: Even though the subject was thoroughly knowledgeaBe?
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Even though this subject was thoroughly knowledgeable
and assuming he will cooperate in a self-desire to produce such a story.
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COL. GEARY: He would have to help them.
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Even then I am quite convinced it would have
shown breaks by now.
ML BROSS: I want to develop a qualification again so there
can be no possible doubt about this.
I understand that as an official of CIA you made a
study among other things of techniques flr inducing people to believe things
that are not true. Is that right?
MR. BROSS: There has been interest on the part of the Agency
in the whole theory and practice of hypnosis that you were familiar with.
Are you familiar with all techniques known to the American intelligence
co:ataunity.
Of hypnosis and of the use of drugs and I think
I can say this without a shadow of doubt.
MR. BROSS Including behavioral indoctrination and hypnosis
and the use of drugs.
I
conducted in this country and the free world. Obviously we --
MR. BROSS: To which the American intelligence comtaunity has
access as far as you know and are familiar with?
At the present time we are supporting several
subjects in hypnosis, oriented toward inducing beliefs, inducing a fairly
detailed and complicated story in an individual that is factually not true,
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Now you are speaking of activities that have been
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1,3R. BROSS: I believe this is a matter of considerable interest.
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and have been for some time. We have been working on this for a matter of
nine or ten years. We have working; for us -- he is witting, knowledgeable
and cleared, and I will later suggest we might want to call him in -- the
top hypnotist in this country --
O
He has been concerned with hypnosis in the
interrogation situation and we have made available to him certain materials
to keep him copiizant and sophisticated in possible uses.
ILL'?. BROSS: As I understand it, also ~n.your official capacity
you have made a study of such information as is available of Soviet
practices in this sphere.
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MR. BROSS: Are Soviet techniques in this field an object of
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intelligence research? Have we investigated this as a priority matter?
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We have not made a thorough reinvestigation of this in the last four years.
We have made available to us all the intelligence"information relevant to
this subject and it does core across my desk so that it would be unlikely
if any information came to the effect that they were involved that we would
miss it.
My general statement is that on the basis of fairly careful
interro;ntions of the Soviet defectors of the intelligence service, we have
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We investigated it thoroughly some years ago.
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cone up uith otronL; and absolute statei.,cIlt on their side -'art the
service is not doing to fool arotuid with these unreliable specialists cad
there is a stronG prejudice a 'air.st using this since they arc convinced
strcij,ht prison tac'ties produce i:Cuch more reliable rcoults than
~?.. tNUuS: Apparently, froi,l the standpoli~c of 'chest defectors,
and based on your research naterial, i:.telli cace iiutcrial and all information
available to this Agency, do you understand that the aoviets have a {:,renter
capacity or have any techniques which are not known to the lestern ?world
for inducing beliefs by practicing h;~p2uotisat?
It is conceivable, of course, but extremely
unlikely, partly because the Western world has not eoi:ipletely ignored this
tjucction, partly because it is tied in with studies of brain, studies of
behavior in other fields that are not quite interrogation situations but
which arc clo3ely enough related. There has been a research effort in this
;encral direction.
14ii. BROSS: These practices have a beneficial, therapeutic
hypnosis indeed has been used for decades as a
therapeutic aid. ,.yr :osi s is alas a potontial key to wu orstalu:inn Cora
a: o'at hiunen social behavior and certain types of attitudes. This
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has been particularly iliterested. e has also done done wort: for the
Gri:.vZaU DULL: Z ;;ould like to fol:'_o,: e lititlx.: differelt line
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now, specifically in
testimony as to information he elicited
from Powers after he arrived in Moscow, The first day was not a day of
interrogation, although he met certain people. Late in the afternoon or
evening he was given an injection in the buttocks, and according to
Powers' testimony the next 25 hours were in general -- a little less then
that -- extremely vague. He doesn't know what happened.
MR. HOUSTON: As I recall the night was fitful. He slept
fitfully and was somewhat confused and the morning was quite confused, but
in the afternoon, when he took a tour around Moscow, it cleared up. He
mentioned a few things he saw. During that period he feels he may have
been --
GENERAL BULL; -- brainwashed, hypnotised, anything also.
MR. HOUSTON: And that would be the morning of May 2nd, 1960.
GENERAL BULL; Now considering the time space, assuming they
did want to use science, or whatever it is -- hypnosis -- to work on
Powers, what would be the purpose of the pre-injection. Is that a pert
of the technique -- the shot?
Let me say this, that if they were going to
use drugs they would use drugs that did not require injection. They would
use drugs that are tasteless, odorless, colorless and are effective in very
small quantities that could have been slipped into their drink or food.
There would be no possibility of the person being aware of this. At times
drugs have been used, but it would be extremely unlikely that one would use
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an injection. It would be ridiculous. What the purpose of the injection
he received was I don't know. It may have been a sedative.
MR. BROSS: Would it be common to give a pilot who has crash
-landed under difficult and dangerous circumstances a sedative to quiet
his nerves?
Others who have been imprisoned wia who have been
taken to prison -- have been given sedatives.
COL. GEARY: We give shots to take carexf -anything they might
GENERAL BULL. You mean an inoculation?
fairly early in the game.
Inoculations have been given in prisons and often
MR. BROSS: By the Soviets?
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By the Soviets and by Eastern European services.
It me add one more thing, if I may, and that is if they
were going to use a course of hypnosis or other drug induced influence it
would be extremely unusual to do it that early in the game. First of all
the specialist:. would not be available. He would want to go through a course
of preparation of the individuals. He would want to get circumstances just right
and it would kK much more likely be produced later.
GENERAL BULL: Know more facts about the subject?
Secondly, if you just consider the practical
matter of getting all the sign-offs and all the approvals on something as
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1,-:R. HOUSTON: They were sure he would tell this story. That
is one of the arguments for his release.
That is ri;ht. The reliability of any of these
techniques is so ex-traordinarily low. There is no way in the world to
know whether a person is hypnotized or is faking. We have been trying; to
get an objective reliable criterian of whether a person is hypnotized.
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has proved that if you promote a person and motivate him he can
faint or do anythineth.e hypnotist irants him to do, but you can't be sure
he has been hypnotized. You can be sure it will not last through the kind
of experience he has been through now.
ER. BROSS: Some people are more subject to hypnotism than
If I may comment at this point I would say if it is
possible I would like to propose that Nr. Powers be hypnotised by a good
hypnotist and the story be elicited under hypnotic trance, if possible.
M. BROSS; Why do you feel that is necessary?
I
here is the one that has been suggested -- a kind of hypnotic amnesia as a result
of terror. He forgot what happened at the time. Something happened to the
plane and almost unconsciously he produced a story to fill the gap -- a self
made story -- nothing that the position produced, but completely spontaneous
with the individual. This experience of having a 10 minute or 15 minute
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For slightly different reasons. The second alternative
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or 20 minute blackout, called a hysterical amnesia, is not an uncommon
experience for individuals who have had extraordinarily stressful experiences.
GME L HULL. ;ould that become a permanent obsession or
permanent reaction?
,,'ell, a?ain, if he had had a blackout and had, in
order to relieve the anxiety of not being able to retcmber, made up a kind
of unconsciously produced plausable story to account for what happened
after the plane was hit, again GoinG through it 15 or 20 tunes that he has
Gone through It in the past couple of weeks would almost certainly have
brou ht c vidence to bear that he was uncorifortable, an:sious, confused and he
himself would begin to sense that slight recollection of --
Nth. TOUSTON Aj,ain, here would it not be unusual to develop
a story that is really almost aphic to him. You can really just about
picture what was going on second by second. I think we all aa'ee: We have
a very clear picture of exactly what was going on. Would it be unusual to
develop such a concise --
D
Youihave to remember that he was probably
interrogated on precisely this event beginning the second or third
day after his capture and they pounded away, and pounded away, and pounded
away at the story perhaps trying to get the true story rather than trying
to build in a story.
COL. GEARY: You will find no statement that Powers
corroborated that the plane was shot down. He makes no mentionthat he
was shot down.
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A;R. BROS3: Let the record show I an
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the transcript of Tape Nunber 1, dated 13 February 1952, of 1r. Powers'
exeandnetion and am askin him to read the account of a destruction and his
c.-cape- from the airplane which begins on page 3#3 and concludes at the top
of pave 45.
I
Powers' interrogation and this Lives a complete account of what he says
happened. low I ask you whether in your judg;ericnt, based on your
e> erience in this type of case, or based on your studios of this sore of
circumstance, whether it is probable that an individual -- an e:;perienced
pilot with hundreds of hours of experience in fliht of aircraft, with
hundreds of hours extperience in the u-2, who has had other flyinG expetiences
with e_ucrgencies before in his career as a pilot -- I ask you whether it is
likely that he would be able to develop a story of this kind with all the
details given in this account.
25X1 It is possible. Certainly it couldn't have been
developed all at once, but over a period of tie, adding; a detail, adding a
detail, over a period of two or three months he could -have. i~:iveni:ed such a
story, but it is extremely unlikely.
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JLfl. BROSS: I asst= when you say "invented" you mean invented an--'
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believed. We are assuming, for the purpose of this question this didn't hup,,-,n
at al-1. Therefore, assume that he has forgotten what really happened to
him which was quite different than this. Would he be likely to create this
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We are getting; a little bit beyond my realia
of ex,ertise at this point, but assuming the person had a blackout for
a period of ti;11e and would be interoogated on this specific period of time.
He could not remember because of a spontaneous hysterical amnesia condition
or even a traumatic injury, but was under enormous interroLation pressure to
produce the story and sommieone says, "Cone on, Give, or it's your neck" or the
eeuivcl.ent of that. It is possible he could then dreap, up, bit by bit,
pieces so that at the end of a month or two or three months he would have
very detailed story and laccint; any conflicting evidence, because he had true
ai:meoia prior to it, would believe it. The question then remains, if he had a
blackout- for a perial of 10 minutes whether he could have continued to fly
the plane auboi:iatically. Presumably this is a possibility, but I'n not
really cure. I don't know enough about the plane or previuas erperiencea uit;h
this sort of thiiif;.
LL'.i. BW$30. 'r hen you say "dress up" I picsui+,e you can --
25X1 I I Luke up, or respond to suUgestions in this case.
The ir,ceraxLator ?:o a?i say, "D .C.ra". you do such and ouch" and re anted
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enough times it is conceivable under those circumstances that you
would then say, "Well, this is the coati+lauzible ex lnuation" ;:rud accept
it.. And this is where it happens - where you have no evidence to the
contrary.- %zhether it is this piece of evidence that you either invent
yourself or respond to the suggestion of some other expert because if
have no evidenct -b the contrary it becomes believable.
MI. LOSS; Do you know of any cases where this has actually
happened?
0
I personnaly do not. This is strictly a
hypothetical case. I presume if one looks carefully at psychiatric
literature you will be able to find where a hysteric had produoed a story.
Certainly under certain types of hypnotic experiences somthing like this
has occurred.
Now if I uny et ahead of your nu;:t question, Ithi:1k CLIzo
this period - . this two-wee'h friendly interro6ation he has cone through
would have broufht evidence to the surface if this were a contrary story
to the facts and you would notice in overt behavior of confusion and
excitemen:t,palpitationa -- a real physical reaction on his part.
P-IR. BROSS: It would be to his advantage to change his story at
this point. IIe4iould have every inducement, every motive to change to have
the facts conforw to the plot which is suggested by the NSA track of him.
In ,is case if the story he is telling were an unconscious fabrication or
response to suggestion and the chanced story would make life easier for him
now I think certainly the true story would have emerged by now or at least
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evidence that there was a conflict which, so far as I am told, there has
been absolutely no evidence of.
COL. GTARY: In his response to suggestions in this type
of story, it would mean considerable knowledge on the part of the
Russians as to what this plane would be dos.
iLR. IIOUSTO::: He himself had never had an accident in the plane.
accident experience and I'm sure most of them have given some thought
to what they would do in case of accident.
GE 11AL BULL: Particularly that reference to an old friend
tel l in, him years ago of an expperience he had. I would think you wol' z't e.-sect
to find that in that sort of created hysterical story.
It is true, you certainly would not, no.
I brought this up because I feel also suite strongly in
the hands of a Good clear hypnosis it would be poslihle to resolve this
issue in a matter of a few minutes, almost.
- MR. BROSS: I ask you -- you have testified that it is possible
that Mr. Powers could have induced himself to believe this story and all
its details. Do.you think this is likely an improbability?
25X1 I would say extremely improbable and very unlikely.
M. BROSS; And if he did this very unlikely and improbable
thing do you think it probable that under the circumstances of his friendly
examdnation in friendly surroundings after his return to the United States that
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he taould cti11 believe and ro)eat anti appear to be conviticed of the
authenticity of the story that he i:u:uced himself to believe?
. The Board recessed at 1630 hours . . . .
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The board roconVened at 1750 hours, 24 February 1962
'4.7ith .?,ll iL'eiab r$ prackan: . . . .
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II
vino then sworn ac a i;itilesc. by Jude
:.a. iOUuTOii: Will you give your fi.11=aiie and pOSitiOil?
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0
I am Deputy Chief of the
Interro0ation Research Division of the Office of Security under Colonel
I,al. HOUSTON: Would you state for the record your experience
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in the area of interrogation with technical devices?
II
Since 1911 I have been in the field of interrogation
and security and I have been in the technical interrogation, or detection
of deception polygraph work since 1951 with CIA.
M. HOUSTON And during your experience you naturally conducted
a number of interrogations.
II
I would say that ny case load over the years everaves
well over 3,=interviews.
ITOUSTOIi: slave you conducted an interro2ationof Francis Gary
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I did. We started that interview with Frank
Gary Powers this morning at 10 a.m., the 23rd of February.
jLMC,2 PpM-D1P.: And how long did it continue?
II
That interview continued until approximately noon,
at which time we had a recess and then lunch and then we reconvened at 1:30
this afternoon and I stopped my teatinC and questioning; at approximately
4 p.m. this eveninG.
JiTDGG P ETT'i-Ail. how was this conducted -- in certain stages?
II
In considering; the issues at hand, since there were
several critical areas, it was felt appropriate to introduce the phasing
technique that we apply on occasions in order not to confuse the subject.
In other words, I presented to hid fromthe beginning questions pertaining
to his experiences as they occurred from jus?! pre-fliGht, then during the
fliGht, and than after the flight so that he would not have his mind
wanderinG in several directions.
was your test and sessions with hr.
Powers adequate in your opinion to fora expert conclusion::?
II
I jqould like to answer that question in this fashion
if I may. I found pram: to be in excellent spirits this morninc. He
was happy to see the sun shining for a change. He had been anticipating;
the iiitm'rview. He advised me he did not like taki1E a test. At first he
thought I was Going into a lot of personal bac!-Lrco-Lund covering a lot of
moral problems and I assured him in this case we..vere-not and he was ,featly
relieved. `"e was very cooperative. I spent the first hour or so in map
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interview with him discussing ratters.
JUDGE PRMLIM.-VULT: When you said he did not like to take the
test, does this mean unwilling?
II
said, "I want to take the test. I don't like to take the test", like anyone
else. It was completely voluntary and he signed our Agency waver to take
the test.
JUDGE P'i,."TT`,:ATT: You got the impression in his statement he
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d ion't like to take the test?
II
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11ow, if I r.ay --
JUDGE Pi?;T d?^i ii: Answer the question I:r. siouston asked --
was your testing sufficient in your opinion as an expert to perr^.it you to
draw a conclusion2
0
It was and his emotional make-up during the Entire
testinG period he was tense and this was natural. If I had not found charts
that indicated that he wasn't tense 'then I'd have been concerned but he was
tense like a noisal person under such circumstances. And in the detection
of deception we always strive for certain types of questions that are
cmu,io:ity known as control questions -- known lie type of questions where you
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know the roan will lie to the question. He will have to and thereby_?
when he does he knows he is lying and you get a reaction to the question.
Fortuaetely we were able to have out of these questions that everyone was
interested in built-in control questions which gave us a better validity
to the questions in comparison with the critical areas. He was a Good
reactor.
M1. HOUSTON: Would you;give the Board your conclusions in
regard to this test?
II
willfully any deception to any question I asked. It was just the opposite.
He tried terribly hard to get his memory to recall certain things that he
realized we felt he hadn't been able'to recall. There were no indications
of any serious deception to any of the questions I asked.
Now if I may do so I'd like to present these questions
to you, sir. The Phase I Test consisted of norm questions. They are
questions that everyone, both subject and interrogator, realize truthful
answers. They are true. This is to help establish a norm mom or less for
his present interview -- questions dealing with his name, date and place of
birth, family, where he was born, "Do you smoke?" and "Is today Saturday?"
and that test establishes his norm for the day.
We went into Phase II which consioted of the following
questions: "Prior to 1 May, while working for CIA, did you reveal
classified information to any unauthorized persons?" "Prior to 1 May 1960
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while working for CTA were you ever approached by anyone for information
about your activities?" "Prior to 1 May 1960 do you recall having committed
any serious breach of security?" "Are you knowledgeable of any serious
security breaches committed by anyone connected with the Project?"
To all these questions he answered "No" and there were no indications of
deception. There was a disturbance to the first question and we went back
again. What he had to fall on was that he had probably told his wife such
things that might be classified such as where they might be going or where
they had been, or something like that and we resolved this by asking the
question again and repeating in the second test, "Other than you have told
me," and there was no reaction.
Phase III. Questions pertaining to his name, age, and
then we asked him if he was stationed near Adana, Turkey to build him in
the area. "While stationed near Adana did you associate with foreign
nationals?" "Yes." "While stationed near Adana did you ever have contact
with any Soviet or Satellite personnel?" "Are you knowledgeable of any bad
or unusual security practices re?arding the U-2 just prior to your flight
of 1 ?fay 1960?" "Do you have knowledge of any security indiscretions or
flaps before your flight of 1 may 1960?" "To the beat of your knowledge was
your aircraft in excellent condition at the time of takeoff 1 I-lay 19607"
I found a disturbance to question: "While stationed near Adana did you ever have
contact with any Soviet or Satellite personnel?" I said, "IYank, what are you
thin :ing about?" He said, "I don't know that they were. To the best of my
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knowledge I don't know that they were Soviet or Satellite personnel."
And I said, "I will repeat the question and say, 'to the best of your
knowledueI" I did and there was no disturbance or reaction. lie asked me
also to change the question since he recalled - in the record you will
recall there was a story about FJlie Long and his wife end -Frank went
to visit some ruins near Turkey and they ran across a Canadian who was
intereated in the LT-2 Project who was working in Turkey and he thought of
"
this and I had to repeat the gtostion -- "other then z,faut ;rou'.have told r,ie,
and here. was no reaction. This is what I b;a -tall: nG about -- built-in
controls. ::e eAve a truthful answer and then realized soi othiug.
Gi L BULL: Is he ffee to break in on that?
II
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Pleat phase -- "liave you recently been in the Soviet Union?"
"Were you ever on a mission to fly over the Soviet Union for the United
States Governmnt?" "While on thiz niocion do you believe you were ahot
down?" "Do you believe you shot down?" "Did you actually see an orange
colored 1iyht or flash just before your aircraft went clown?" "Did you
and your aircraft go down South and East of Sverdlovsk?" He asked n.s during
the pre-interview, he said, "Southeast is not the correct description. I
was definitely South and I believe a little 14zt so would you please make
it that way;~o I may answer it that way -- South and a little East of
Sverdlovsk." "Did you parachute from your aircraft durint; this incident?"
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"Did you at any time fly beyond Sverdlovs1?" and ".Lave you withheld, wny
facts f'ro:. ua e6a to what happened to you and your aircraft during; your
mission over Russia on 1 Hay 19602" Now to these questions he had some
tension because he said, "Gentle ten, I have bot this radar staring me in
the face. They say I did and I :.ay I didn't." "Please, forget the radar.
You tell me what you honestly know and we will, ignore the radar incident,"
so he said, "Well, I would like the question re;urding whether I was
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shot down or not, 1To the best of my knowledge I was shot down.' I didn't
see what hit mae but in reviewing the situation after it happened and even
now and after I have been interrogated I still feel I was shot down
and this is to the best of my knowledge." I rephaased the question, "To
the best of your knowledge, while on this mission, you believe you were
shot down." He answered, "Yes" and there was no reaction. I changed another
question in this retard to read, "Do you feel that an external explosion
occurred and caused your aircraft to go down?" and he said, "Yes," and he
h? ed ne :. 'he ul; this question and there was no reaction. ;e ;.till was not
positive no to the South, or Southwest, or a little Southeast. He just knows
he was South of Sverdlovsk, but he says, "I'mu still not cc::-train whether it :?rr.::i
South, South by ,-st, or -_ "
Gma AL DUI; You are talking about the of o l;rdiny where
he touched the Grou::d.
0
Where the incident hwypcned.
The next ph se: "Other than you have told us did you
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1 May 1960?" -- nothing more than the two contrails that he mentioned.
"Did you follow your programmed flight plan to the best of your ability?"
"While flying near Sverdlovsk did you fly at an altitude lower than
69,000 feet?" "Was 69,000 feet the lowest altitude you flew while in
the Soviet Union before you went down near Sverdlovsk?" He said, "The
only problem with this question is that as I was on my way into soviet
Union I was probably lower. I was trying to build my altitude. I
could have been. I don't recall. It's on my record what my altitudes were
ao I entered the Soviet Union." lie could :Kay, "After I leveled off
I was never lower than 69,000 feet." So I said, "After leveling off was
69,000 feet the lowest altitude you flew in the Soviet Union before you
went down near Sverdlovsk?" "Did you attempt to activate the destruction
mechanism before you left your aircraft?" "lave you been cc pletely truthful
to all of us reyardinp the incident l.o:.dizG to the destruction of your
aircraft?" He went over the o_ranae color, the pound, motions, where he
was oriented in re(3ard to his flight plan. There wasn't any deception to
this question, but the question, "Did you attempt to activate the destruction
mechanism before you attempted to leave your aircraft?" -- he states now
that, "I looked over the situation. I don't understand just before I
unfastened my beat belt why I didn't flip the switches. I unfastened ray
seat belt and went up against the cowl then I couldn't C;et back to it."
"Did you attempt to activate the destruction mechanism before you left
your aircraft?" and there was no reaction to those questions.
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This is the last phase of testing. "While in custody
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of the Russians, did they interrogate you often?" "Did the Russians
threaten you in any way?" "Did the Russians torture you in any way?"
"Did you tell the Russians more than you have told us you did?" "Did
you make any deals with the Russians?" Now I tested him and he had
sensitivity to the question, "Did you tell::the Russians more than you have
told us you did?" and this was exactly what I was hoping I would get
because when I challenged him he said, "Gentlemen, to the best of my
knowledge I haven't told them any more thanI told you I did, but" he
said, "I'm sure as time goes on I am going to think of things I probably
told them that haven't been brought out in my memory -- I haven't remembered."
I said "As far as the major things -- important items -- and you know what
they,are because you have heard the interrogation by all of us -- are there
? now
any items you recall/that you told them that you didn't tell us?" Tie said,
'lido, they would be small things as far as I am concerned." I said,
"ALL right, other than what you have mentioned did you telllthe Russians
more than you told us you did?" There is a little sensitivity, which is
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natural because I dbn't think the man could answer and not react. The
reaction does not indicate any serious deception. Then I said, "Did you
make any deals with the Russians?" He said, "I did. I thought of them.
The deals were involving the Colonel that took me to the bridC'e for the
exchanGe. He asked me please, not to give his name to the press, and I
told him and promised him I wouldn't. I don't remember his name but
II
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Jhas his name." That is a boy from Security that went to meet him.
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He said, "I also recall et the time the initial interrogation they asked me
if I had been able to communicate with my base as soon as I was hit just
before I crashed and I told them I would not answer that question until
they showed me evidence that the American people knew I was down in Russia."
Nov he said, "Other than these two deals I made no deals with the Russians"
so I said, "All right, I'm going to make up a new question and I will also
repeat the question as follows: 'Other than you mentioned, did you make any
deals with the Russians?" "No" No deception. "Are you under obligation to
serve the Russians in any way in the future?" "No." No deception.
The overall analysis of the entire interview is one that
is very easy to analyze and very good test, sir,and I was very happy
to see it.
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II
No deceptions -- no serious deceptions to any relative
question that I mentioned here.
JUDGE PRETT)kPN:
were very helpful.
we thank you very very much. You
The Board adjourned at 1815 hours . . . .
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