DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200030007-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 48
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: April 22, 2004
• Sequence Number: 7
• Publication Date: January 1, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

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DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS
Tape: #6
Date: 15 February 1962
Time: 0915 hours
Frank, lets start out this morning by talking first about
your cell mate here and we'll get on the record and try
to find out who he is and chances are we... we can find
some trace on him and suppose you give us a run down
who he is, what you know about him.
Powers: Well, he was here at the prison when I arrived at Vladimir.
His name was Diguarv...I don't recall the middle name
right now... I know the initial was B... Kruminsh and that's
spelled K-r-u-m-i-n-s-h.
Interrog: That's... that's the last name ?
Powers: Yes.
Interrog: What was that first name ? How do you... would you spell
that, please ?
Powers: I think D-i-g-u-a-r-v.
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Interrog: Could I have that again?
Powers: I have that in the book downstairs.
Well, lets pick it up later... if you're not sure on the
spelling.
Powers: This is his writing here on the back of the photographs.
I have two photographs of him that he gave me the night
that I was notified that I was leaving. One was taken, he
said, in Germany several years ago, some time after the
war in '40. The other was taken the same time I had my
last photograph taken there. I believe it was. . . August
or September of last year. So it's a recent photograph
and the likeness is very good.
Did he give you the photo ?
Yes.
Did the... did the prison officials know that he gave you
the photo ?
Powers: Not that I know of, and as far as I know, they did not go
through my baggage when I left. I know that the prison
officials there didn't. They kept my baggage in Moscow
for...well, they. . . it was available to them all night while
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I was there but I couldn't tell that it had been touched,
and I saw it the next morning. I had to re-pack it. I
had a box and had to re-pack it into a suitcase that they
had bought for me the night before.
Did he... did he send out any message by... by... by way
of you?
Powers: No, he asked me to do something for him if... if I could.
He said just suggested... if there was any way I could
ever get in touch with the British people there, the
authorities, that he had left some photographs, a watch,
and some ...I don't know what other gear, but some other
stuff, and that he would certainly appreciate the photo-
graphs being sent to his mother and father if possible.
Uh-huh. Did he say where they're... where his mother
and father are located?
Powers: Yes, they're at a place... a place north of Riga called
A. . . Aluya.
In Latvia?
Uh-huh. What did you find out about him? What did he
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tell you about himself ?
Powers: He told me quite a bit of his story, or a story, and I
think it's his story. He was in school when the Russians
first occupied Latvia in, I think, 1940...I don't remember
the date... also in school when the Germans came in....
Here's something that might be interesting. His father
was a member of the Red army during the revolution.. .
not an officer but just a soldier. His father is now trying
to get a pension and this has been come... has come up in
the correspondence between the two.... The Germans came
in, stayed couple years, then when the Russians were com-
ing back, he joined the German army until it retreated
into Germany. He mentioned he had been in Czechoslovakia
..lets see here, seems like to me, he was in some sort
of anti-tank otfit. I think he said something like a bazooka
or something, but I'm not sure. I don't even know if they
had such things at that time and. . . anti-tank. When the. . .
it was obvious to the people that the war was going to end
in favor of the Allies, he and other people started heading
for the west. They did not want to be captured by the
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Russians.... When the war did end, he was in a British
POW camp. After release from that, he was in a dis-
placed persons camp.... He said he tried to emigrate to
Canada, the States but. . . since he had been in the Ger-
man army, it was not allowed, and he seemed to be very
bitter about that. His enemy, he said, was Russia. He
joined the German army to fight Russia and yet the
United States and Canada a few years or after the war
were friends of Russia and because he had fought the
Russians, they would not allow him to immigrate... .
While he was. . . after the DP camp, I think he even got
kicked out of the DP camp because of his affiliation with
the German army.
Did he indicate to you that he ever worked for British in-
telligence service ?
Powers: Yes, I'm coming to that in just a second. He worked for,
at first after getting out of the DP camp or maybe even
during the time he was there, he had a job as a guard...
night watchman or watchman service he called it. I don't
know what that is in the British, but it was apparently
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guarding a military reservation or something in Germany
in the British zone. Later on, some time in the early
'50's I think it was, he was approached some way, I
think by other Latvians... about working for the British
intelligence.... He went to England, took training as a
radio operator, then repairman second.
Say where ?
He said he lived in this sort of artist district of London,
but where he took the xxutraining I don't know.
Mention any addresses ?
Powers: Not of a school or anything he went to. He mentioned
this section of London that he lived in.
Chelsea?
Chelsea. I'm pretty sure that's it.
Did he give you an address in there ?
Powers: Not that I know of and even if he had, I would never have
known where it was or anything....I don't know how long
his training lasted there, but apparently after the x train-
ing, he was taken to West Germany.. .1 think still in the
British zone. In fact, I'm sure it was, and there was...
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they had converted a PT boat that they used to make runs
to the Latvian coast, and he said he had been on at least
two, maybe three, I don't remember exactly, but I know
at least two runs to the coast where he did not ss stay
but just went there, and came back to Germany, and
then on one trip, he went there, stayed, was met by a
group of people and they went out into the Latvian forest....
He trained, he said, a few other people in radio operation,
code, and etc. , while he was there. By the way, he had
an old, old leather jacket, and it wasn't one that I had
seen anything like it in Russia. It was... it was definitely
western. He said in the summer times, they lived in
forests, sometimes moving from one place to the other,
camping out, or at other times, just... a permanent camp
somewhere in the middle of a swamp or something. In
the autumn when it got cold, they went to farmers they
knew, certain houses inside and lived through the winter
there. In, I think it was April of 1955, . . . lets see.. .
March, April, May. . . April 1955, he saidxlx that they
had received word that there was a big KBG built up in
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the district center close by this lax particular place
where he was staying and they had orders to move. They
left the farmhouse one night, went to another farmhouse,
slept in the barn, and while they were there they got vmxDdx
word that two hours after they left the house, the original
house had been xKx searched. They spent the second night
in the barn. There were three of them. The next night
at... after dark, I don't know... he said early in the evening,
eight or nine o'clock, they were to meet someone on a road.
They walked out, saw no one on this road. There was a
small clearing beside the road, he said. He picked up the
baggage, took it off the road into the clearing. The other
two men were standing there on the road talking; I think
i cx they had, he said, some vodka that they were drinking.
He had had, he said, one strong drink. He said he had just
eaten something xx sweet so he didn't drink much at the
time. Said the last thing he can remember is sitting down
or thinking of sitting down on this baggage off the road next
to the trees there. He said the next thing he can remember
was waking up, with his hands tied up, with his head hanging
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down and when he xqmcxxk opened his eyes he could see
a wooden floor, and... I don't remember whether he
said his hands were behind him or not, but later they
loosened his hands. He said they even... he even still
had his guns. He had two guns, one in k a pocket, another,
I think, in a holster. And he said. ..later on when they
loosened him, they didn't take those guns. And... when
he woke up they... they loosened him up. He said his
vision was very blurred for a day or two. He couldn't
read. He had a broken tooth and broken xkmx skin and
a sore head, like he had been hit over the head. He said
that... when he came a little to his senses there, they
turned him loose giving him something to drink. He re-
alized that he had his gun and he jumped up, pulled his
gun out, and tried to shoot somebody, but it just snapped.
They had taken the stuff out, the ammunition out he said.
And he thought, he said, at the time that he had another
gun. Maybe they didn't find that and he messed around,
got the other gun out of his pocket, tried the same thing,
and didn't work and gave it to them. That, I don't know,
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I
s sounds odd to me.
How much time was he doing ?
Powers: Fifteen years.
Fifteen years ?
Powers: Prison. No camps.
Uh-huh.
Powers: No work camps.
Did he say anything about what his kx targets were in there
for the British ?
Against... against the Russians ?
Powers: Well, he said that he was not being paid by the British... .
That he was not necessarily so much an agent for the
British but he.. he was a Latvian national.
I see.
Powers: But he got in there through the British. He had radio com-
munications with the British. The British were supporting
these people with money and aid. They would take some of
the people out ae xi occasionally in this boat. They weren't
so much, he said, spies or anything, but just to be there
ready.
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Uh -huh.
And he said that he and the others of his group had the
impression that it wouldn't be long until there would be
a war and they wanted them there. Said they did... and
had had training in observation and collecting intelligence,
but their job wasn't to go out and compromise themselves
in some position trying to get intelligence. They were
just to stay there ready.
Possible stay-behind facilities?
Powers: Yes, that's right.
Interrog: Weren't trained as saboteurs, were they? Dynamiters?
Powers: No, he didn't mention anything about it.
Well, if you don't mind, let me borrow thes photos, take
them down to Washington, and I'll get them kak back to
you. We'll make some copies of them.
Lets go on. I think from that we can possibly identify the
man. Now then, you recall our previous s.xaxx conversation
ended about the time you were on the ground and.. . . you were
being taken out of your helmet and all that. Now thogm then,
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lets go back to that point and there's... well, we may appear
to skip here... as you know we're pressed for time and I
want to get certain things on the record... so let me...with
that in mind why... lets go ahead.... When you got k on the
ground. . . You didn't try to escape ?
Powers: No, there was. . . while I was still lying there on the ground
with the parachute ami dragging me, one man was
helping me out iK of the parachute and the other was trying to
help me up, and the time I got on my feet and got this helmet
off, there was a large group around.
There a was just no opportunity to even think of escaping ?
Powers: I think I couldn't have gotten through this group if none of
them were armed. ..I don't think any of them were, but it
was just a large press of people and I could not have gotten
through any way.
Yeah, now then...
And they had also taken this .22 pistol away from me before
I had an opportunity to even think about it.
You didn't resist in any way?
Powers: No, I gave no active resistance.
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Why didn't you resist?
Powers: Just too many people.
Uh-huh. It just would have been foolhardy in other words ?
That's what it g seemed to me. It just seemed that... well,
I'm alive right now. I could try to s escape which I wanted
to do. I was pretty much in shock at the time also, and I
don't suppose I was tbd=g thinking too clearly, but I was
looking around trying to see some mosway to escape or
something to do and all these people milling around.... It
was just impossible to do anything, in my opinion.
Now then, lets skip for a moment. They took in to Sverd-
lovsk, and then you went by this plane k in to Moscow.
When you got to Moscow, where did they take you?
To the... the place I stayed all the time.
Lubyanka Prison?
Powers: Well, I never did hear the name of this place. It's now on
Dzerhzinski Square. I heard later that I had been in that
prison, so...I don't know if it was from American news
source or western news source or not, but I stayed at this
same place all the time. It seemed to be more or less a
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KGB headquarters of some kind.
Yeah, that would be Lubyanka. Were you ever taken to
any other prison there in Moscow?
Powers: Yes, after the x trial when I saw my wife on the 24th of
August, they took me to another prison, ka brought her
there, and left us alone for three hours.
At the risk of trying to lead you, can you recall, was that
building sort of shaped like a "k" ?
Like so...like this would be the main wing and then there
was a wing leading off in this direction and another wing
leading off in this direction and there was a center area
about like that?
Powers: Not that I know of. I mean I didn't see anything that would
give any indication. There was more than one building
and they were not attached. All I can remember is there
was a wooden fence along the road that we came down. I
had no idea what was there. There was a lot of trees over
in here, looked like a park. They turned in here somewhere,
maybe 50... yards, I don't remember and there was a gate
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with guards on it. Went in that gate, through a dopxaw
doorway here, long building, the corridor with rooms on
this side... there was doors also back through here as if
this building had another wing that x=wVway. But we came
in here, went through a door here, down this corridor. The
last rooms were separated by... the hallway in front of the
last two rooms was separated by a partition with a door in
it. They put me in the last cell or room on the left. Kept
a guard out here. Well, that isn't very clear on this tape... .
And brought my wife there and allowed us to stay two hours
*idx ...three hours.... When I left, same mawFway, down
corridor, out the side, in the car, through the gate and away.
I saw what looked like a fairly large ck building out the wii ag
window here.
Interrog: Brick?
Powers: Yes, brick. It had bars on the windows and more than four
stories high.
Interrog: I'll look something up.
UNINTELLIGIBLE
Powers: No, I was in this position and this building was. I don't
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I
know if it extended that far. ..but it was back. These
were not prison cells. They had... this one here had a
desk and rE a E:kx chair in it I think... this one had a leather
couch, a table, and an easy chair of some kind.
Uh-huh. Well, we'll get into that in some detail later.
When they got you into Moscow and you went to this prison,
which appears to have been Lubyanka... tell us, did they
put you into a cell, what was. the routine, and when were
you first introduced into the interrogation process? De-
xx velop that for us if you can.
Powers: Lets see. As xmailo~ well as I can remember, we came
inside this building in an automobile into court yards on
the inside, made a turn, too, in k there, took me out,
took me upstairs, about four or five flights of steps,
down a long hallway, into a room, made me take off all
my clothes, gave me other clothes to put on. I sat there
about 30 minutes .... They... after about 30 minutes, they
took me into an office, very nice office by their standards,
with a fairly large gxm group of people and some high-
ranking people there. In fact, this... prosecuting general
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of the Soviet Union Rudenko... Is that his name ?
Rudenko.
Powers: Hex. was there, and I think, some other people that seemed
to be very high in the KGB. I don't know what their xxxci
ranks were. I think I saw one of them. Is photograph in the
Russian newspaper not too long ago as making a speech at
this congress, but... I'm not too sure it was that man, but
it was very similar to him anyway.... SAX Several
people in uniforms, stenographer, and a lot of people
standing around... and... well, I can't remember the exact
time of this. It was in the afternoon.
Interrog: This was after you'd been processed and had your physical
examination ?
Powers: No, no, this was before.
Interrog: Before ?
Powers: I had had... a little physical examination at? this first
little village they stopped me at to paint some scratches
and. ..I think listen to the heart was about all that happened
there. They immediately started questioning me, wxxN well,
at Sverdlovsk, I was questioned some, but they immediately
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started taking up the same line there: who I was, what I
was a doing, where I was a going, who I worked for, and
all this.... This didn't last too long. I can't remember
the exact time. I'm sure it was over an hour, but... or
near as long as some of the sessions I had there, and at
this time, well, af&w at Sverdlovsk I saw that the story I
had made up was impossible to tell them. I had, in this
airplane trip and so forth, made up my mind that I wanted
to xxmximx convince them I was telling the truth so that when
I racxa thought it necessary to tell a lie about something that
I didn't want them ever taKf to find out about, & that they
might believe me. So I was telling them who I a was, who
I worked for, and I knew also that they had my... this.. .
AGO card and a few other pieces of my stuff... or very
likely to have it...I didn't know that they had it, but I knew
that it was in the airplane.
Did you tell them at that time that you worked for CIA ak
or did you... ?
Yes, I did.
Xx Yeah.... Did you try this NASA log... upper-air xk
weather pilot cover story at all?
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Powers: I told them, yes, that I'm flying from Pakistan to Turkey
...I don't R remember if I told them it was a weather
flight or what. I think so because we had, you know...
that was the cover story there at Odana and so forth and
that was one of the first things that would enter my mind,
but I can't remember exactly whether I told them that or
not. But anyway, the trip was outside the Soviet Union.
I didn't give them any route or anything, but they had
enough stuff xi right there to... they knew about it.
Uh-huh. Did they let you know right away that that story
was no good?
Powers: Yes, uh-huh.... Well, they showed me the Russian rubles,
the escape maps of the Soviet Union, and. . . some other
things. I don't remember what it was, but I knew that.. .
that was no good right there... .
Now this first interrogation that you got there at Lubyanka
with all these big shots, Rudenko was there. How many
people all together were there in that initial ii x interview?
Powers: There was... a desk, a small table in front of thisxJ? desk,
and I was sitting at the end of the small table.... Rudenko
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I
was on my right. Rudenko and another man was on my
right. There were two men on my left at the small table.
A stenographer and another man behind the desk and...
I would say... six to ten people standing around in the
room, back over to the left near the door.... I'd say at
least 15 or 20 people in there, a fairly large office..
maybe, say 15 gEawk people just as a rough guess. I
really don't know.
And who did the questioning ? One man, or did all of them
participate ?
Powers: All of them participated to a certain extent, but Rudenko
seemed to be the xW2edx wheel there, the one who k was
doing the most.
And how long did that session last?
Powers: I would say the main thing they was interested in there
was establishing that I was an American, that I worked
for the CIA, that the purpose of my flight wasxx espionage
... those... that seemed to be the line of questioning, and
it didn't take them...I know it was over an hour, but I
have no idea of how, unless it was one of the longest days
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I
I ever spent. ...It wasn't dark or it was just before dark
when it was over, and I don't remember what time I got
into Moscow.
Now, was this the same day you got to Moscow?
Yes, and I had been up very early the night before, very
tired. I was completely exhausted.
How'd they have you sitting ? Out in the middle of the
room or on a stool or... ?
Powers: No, I was sitting at the end of this small table in
front of the desk. The kz table was... about this. . . as
ax long as this table is wide here. That's what, about
four feet?
Uh -huh.
Powers: And about... two and a half wide, and it was sitting per -
pendicular to. . . to a large desk and I was sitting at the
end of the table facing the desk. Rudenko was either
sitting immediately on my right or up near to the desk at
this table. There were two other... the interpretor was
immediately on my right. That's a g right, he was a
State Department interpretor that they had borrowed -
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I
so he told me that day or the next, I don't remember.
But he was only there for two days.
Well, now then, . . . this initiated your... your... this intro-
duced you, you might say, to the interrogation process
that you went through from then on? Is that correct?
This was the beginning ?
Powers: This was the beginning or there was a slight investigation
at Sverdlovsk.
Yeah. But that was the "name, rank, serial number"
type thing at Sverdlovsk. This was the beginning in
Moscow?
Powers: Right.
Yeah. Now then, ideally and maybe some day we'll get a
chance to sit down in relaxation and try to go over and re-
construct all of these interviews, but time doesn't permit
at this time. Can you... can you say over all... from the
time of your arrival in Moscow, say on about the second
of... the first or second of May 1960, and you were tried
.. your trial started on Xg August 17... approximately
how many interrogations did you undergo, and... and how
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long were they? How long was the longest one ? I know
they would vary as to the time but... how intense and
how continuous was this thing ?
Powers: I have some information downstairs that will help me with
that later, but... this first one thatR I was talking about,
I know was over an hour, but I have no idea as to the exact
Idx length of time. The second day there was none. From
that day on, there was not a single day up until the latter
part of May,, I don't remember the exact day, I caught a
bad cold, and they let me off one Saturday or one Sunday.
I don't remember, but it was seven days a week and it
would vary as to length of time of the :ix investigation
I mean of the interrogation - and the numbers of times a
day, and there were several at night. I don't remember
exactly how many, butte this was mostly in the early part.
And in the latter part of May, they started skipping NX
Sundays. And later on, they would... maybe half a day
that I wouldn't go in there, but it... usually... I'd say al-
most an average of three times a day, and ... many times,
four times a day.
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Powers: It would vary. At first... the first one started at 7 o'clock
in the morning, I mean on the third of May when they started,
I'd say, the official investigation. About 7 o'clock in the
morning, went until about 9, I went back to the cell
i x ... had time to go to the toilet, so... they called me back
at 9:30 or so... went is on until about 1 o'clock, I had an hour
for lunch, came back about 2 o'clock and this one lasted,
I'd say, 5 or 6 o'clock in the afternoon, came back about
7 o'clock and it went on until 9 or a little later. That was,
I think, maybe the first day, and I think that was maybe
the longest one I had. I tried to figure a it up later and I
know that... it was 12 hours or more, but I don't recall
what I... the figure I finally decided that it was at the time.
For each day ?
For... that... that... was for the first clay. The rest were
not quite that long. There too many at night, and later on
they started starting around 9 o'clock in the morning and
sometimes would extend up until approximately 1 o'clock
... and then 2 o'clock in the afternoon until 6 o'clock.
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Now, during this time you were in solitary confinement
in your cell in the off time ?
Powere: Yes.
Interrog: And were l ou brought always to the same room, Gary?
Powers: ...99% of the time. There was two or three times that
I went to another room. I had a couple of meetings with
Rudenko. I was taken to another office one time where
there was a colonel, anti Air Force colonel who was a
pilot, that asked me some questions.
Well now, then almost immediately you had to... to ar-
rive at some decision in your mind as to how you were
going to deal with these people, that is... you could de- ,/
cide to tell them to go to hell, you weren't going to talk,
or you z: were going to cooperate with them to a certain
extent, or you were not going to cooperate with them.
How did* you... what decision did you arrive at in this
regard and how did you arrive at it?
Powers: And when ?
Yeah.
Powers: At Sverdlovsk when I saw that my story that I had made
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up was no good whatsoever, I decided then...I remembered
then hearing this briefing that I i had that k there would
be a torture, that may as xwx& well, in an event like this
when there was capture, may as well,,tell them everything
because they would get it out of you anyway and just make
it last as long as possible because... the longer they
thought you knew something, the longer you would ? live,
and I decided then that I would cooperate with them to a
certain extent. There was somelhingc things that I was
never going to tell them.
Now this was briefings that you got from
prior to going or over a period of time ?
Powers: I think... I'm pretty sure they were all from
and not just prior to this flight but over aig period of time
before this flight. One probably when we... when this pin
was given to us and wex were told what it a would do and
we were told we could take it if we wanted to and so forth
...I think he briefed us some there, and I'm not positive
whether this particular question about telling everything
came up before my flight while we were studying the maps,
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or maybe before someone else's operation that I was
in on. But I do remember hearing it and I do that it
came to my mind at that time.
But finding yourself in this situation you had the back-
kxuxAxxmm I of briefing of that type ?
Powers: Yes, and that decided my course. I don't know what
I would have done if I had not thought of that. I have
no idea; but, you've got to realize that I was in a *
pretty good state of shock at the time, I. . . probably
wasn't thinking too clearly, althoughk it seems to me
I was, but I was nervous, my heart was. . . pulse rate
very fast, and, felt horrible. I don't remember how
long I'd been up atk the time but I was completely ex-
hausted seemed like. But anyway, this entered my mind
and when I saw that my cover story did not hold up or the
one that I had made up would not hold up. I knew there
was. ..I wanted to keep as much information from them
as possible... and I knew that there were some things
that... that it would be very embarrassing for a lot of
people if these people find out about it and I was going
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to do my best to keep that type of information from these
people; but I also decided at that time and between that...
diat that time and also on the airplane to Moscow which
took a few hours, I don't remember how long, that in order
to... to withhold this information that I thought was very
important, I had to convince these people that I was telling
them the truth. And doing that, I had to anticipate what
would be released in the press xgbdxbuK which I had no idea
what would be. And maybe my imagination ran away with
me in some of these instances because the press seems to
have a pretty good intelligence system of their own....
There was a lot of thoughts like this running thax through
my mind, but I definitely made up my mind that some things
couldn't be revealed. Other things that might appear in the
press, they would know that I was telling the truth in every-
thing. And I think it worked fairly good in several cases.
But this was the time that I thought of this and... 6
performed a plan, or originated a plan to follow during
the rest of the xax course.
And now... go ahead.
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Interrog: Before you had reached Lubyanka Prison...
Powers: Uh-huh.
Interrog: ... had any threats been made ?
Powers: No, no threats, but... a little, well, I don't `x know
where you would say no threats or not. They... no verbal
threats, no real rough treatment, but they didn't offer me
a chair and say sit down and so forth. I had some trouble
with my ears. The fast descents of the airplane or some-
m thing had caused an ear to plug up some xws way or
the other and I kept trying to clear it up and they would
come over and grab my hand and throw it down.... They
xiad said, well, I couldn't understand what they were
saying, but you could tell that they were... seemed k like
pretty angry.
Interrog: Were you, any time between your point of landing and Luby-
anka, handcuffed or... ?
Powers: No, they started to handcuff me abb= at Sverdlovsk. The
man took out a pair of handcuffs, and they talked about it.
He put them back in his pocket, but they hung on to each
xxxuxx arm. Took me in the car, took me out of the airplane,
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rushed me up the steps. Two men on each side; two on
the other side and no handcuffs.
And then, . . . again and I realize were skipping like mad
here to cover a lot of ground with a very few questions
but to illustrate this decision that you arrived at, that
you would anticipate what might appear in the KNEY
American press you had to convince them that you were
telling the truth so that you could lie to them when the
onax a occasion arose and you felt that there x was cer-
tdx tain information that you had to protect... and the
risk of being caught in a lie was always present. . It
appears from analysis of the trial transcript and other
information that has been published that... that you did
follow this process. Now then, let me refresh your
memory on a couple of things and maybe you can fill in
what went on, what caused you to withhold information in
these specific instances.
Powers: All right.
For instance, the ficti... your alias, Palmer, was dis-
closed at the trial, but you did have another pseudonym,
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did you not?
Yes.
Was that ever disclosed?
The name Osan never... ?
Did they query you about other pseudonyms and other
cryptonyms or code names of any kind?
Powers: I think they did, I don't remember any question right off
right now, but they did ask about these and they expected
me to have pseudonyms. At first I denied that I had any,
and then... well, they. . . you see, I did a lot of traveling
under this Palmer, and I assumed that it might be possible
that someone would get ahold of it and it might come out,
so I told them that. I knew that... that very few people
knew about the Osan, so that never came ,out. I don't
II
remember whether they asked me how many I had or
anything like that. I'm sure they did, but Palmer was the
only one that was released.
Now then, testimnny at the trial came out to the effect
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that you claimed that you... you admitted that you com-
pleted your Air Force service and being unable to find
civilian employment, you accepted a position with CIA.
Now it appears that that is some variation from the truth.
Yes, ... How was that again?
Well, the published account was that you had testified
that you had completed your Air Force service and being
unable to find civilian employment, you accepted a position
with CIA.... Actually, you were selected from the Air
Force for this assignment.
Yes, uh-huh.
Yeah, and...
Powers: I don't remember that line of questioning there exactly,
but that doesn't seem exactly all that was covered there....
Now this is only the published account, see.. .
Powers: I tried to keep the Air Force out of it as much as possible.
.. Well, I told them that I had been in g the Air Force,
that I had learned to fly in the Air Force, that I had been
discharged from the Air Force. I was offered a job K
with the CIA. I don't remember anything about being un-
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able to find employment. I don't remember saying any-
thing like that. I don't know, maybe I did. I can't un-
der stand, I mean, I can't remember .... I was... ap-
proached by the CIA for a job, not as a member of the
CIA directly, but as a contract pilot to the CIA.
Uh -huh .
... and, they got into the business about any intelligent
x training I had. Whether I knew any codes, etc. I
told them my job was to fly.
There was no reference to your training at I?
They wanted to know if I had x had any of that stuff, but
I told them I hadn't. I'd never been there, or I'd never
been in any type of training.
Interrog: Did they ask you if you'd been to such-and-such a place ?
Powers: No. Lets see...
Well, Watertown was referred to as a training place, as
an air training school.
Powers: Yes, I. . . mentioned that to them. That was my fault there.
I don't know exactly why but I think it was because I g figured
that the press would get ahold of that, because I x knew that
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this would be a big story, ..:k. and as far as I know they
didn't refer to this area but I referred to it myself.
Uh-huh, but you had in these discussions, am I correct
now, that you were aware that the Air Force had to be
protected?
Powers: I was try. ..I don't remember if I was ever told that
the Air Force had to be protected or not, but for some
reason or other, I didn't want the Air Force involved
because that... it seemed to me that that might cause
a lot of trouble. And I tried my best to kit play that
part down, but it was. ..well, the Air Force was asso-
ciated with us all the way and in order for us to operate
at Odana, we had to be with the Air Force on an Air
Force base and... supplies had to come in in Air Force
airplanes, so I knew that they knew that there was an
association. But as far as my working for the Air Force
even though they implied several times and even though,
.. when I was released here, just a day or two before
I was released, they kept referring to me as military
and that I could go back into the service. I would
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be all right and all this. They kept trying to bring the
Air Force in. This seemed to be later. At first, they
didn't seem interested in that. But it seemed later they
wanted to. . . to... seemed to me they were trying to in-
volve the Air Force.
Did anything in... was any mention made of the Lovelace
Clinic ?
Powers: No, but I think I mentioned it in a letter to my wife
at home, but not that I had been there in any capacity. I
mean under my contract or anything.
I think you mad reference to... to your trips to Albu-
querque in...
Powers: I think I might have said to Albuquerque for a physical
Reexamination. They didn't ask where or what.
Uh-huh. Was that... did. . . did... Wright-Patterson come
up for discussion... ?
... in any xc:ec way in connection with this project?
Wait a minute.. .1 really don't know. It seems to me
maybe it did, but I don't know. I don't know. I can't re-
member ....
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It wasn't mentioned at the trial. The testimony of the
trial was to the effect... that your employment required
the passing of a physical examination, that the flight suit
was made and tested at a special chamber. But there
was no reference to a particular location?
Powers: I. ..I don't remember. See, this... this test and all of
this took place there, but I don't remember if that ever
came up by name; whether they were even interested in
where it was tested, but I do remember - this is very
stupid. I had a card in my belongings that said that I
had... member os the 100, 000-foot Altitude Club and
so forth, and I think it had Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base, date, and so forth on it. But I don't remember
exactly how this came up or what was said about that.
now
Maybe later I could recall what it is, but right k0Ew I
can't be sure.
Interrog: Gary, may I interpose just ashort question? Prior to fc
this last flight of yours, were you subjected to a physical
body check of what you were xa* carrying in your clothing ?
Powers: No.
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Interrog: That's all right.
Powers: ... on my person was, at the time, was only... the stuff
that I thought I would need on the flight, but I had x a
small bag. I had my wallet in it, which should not have
been there. It would never have been except I was landing
at another place and I knew how things were going to hap-
pen on this flight. Everything was going to be all right.
I had my wallet that had...I had taken a lot of stuff out
of my wallet before I left home going to Pakistan, but I
didn't take enough out.
UNINTELLIGIBLE
Powers: Uh-huh.
Going on here on another point now where it appears that
you may have evaded and caused them some confusion.
I believe it had been published that... that you said you were
hesitant about renewing your contract with CIA and did so
only because of lack of time to 3Edix bmxk look for another
job ?
Powers: Well now...
Do you recall that?
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Powers: Yes, I recall that. I didn't want them to think that I
was real eager to fly over the Soviet Union. And, but
in truth I was really anxious to renew my contract....
I thought it would just look better.. . as if...I was thinking
about trying to get something else and etc. I don't re-
member a exactly how that went, but I do remember
this coming up.
In other words, you were playing down your own role in
this thing to w ease the pressure on... ?
That's what I was trying to do at the time.
Now then, along that same line, I believe you denied any
... they asked you if you jK were a leader or a chief or a
boss of any kind?
Powers: Yes, and I was .. .
You denied any leadership function. You were just a. ....just a pilot.
Yeah .... Now then at the trial you, well, on this question
of seven civilian pilots... which... which was a neatly
turned trick or seemed to be at the trial.... What did
they... did they attempt to explore this thing during the
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interrogation and how did you handle that?
Powers: Yes, they were n very interested in getting the names of
them I'd only made one - on the pilots I just told them 'l
I will not answer the question, but I played this down in
the... the reason I gave them that I wouldn't answer was
not because I aikk disliked them so much but because it
might cause these pilots a lot of trouble in the United
States, and they seemed to like that. Now this might
have been playing into their hands some way, I don't know
but it kept their names out of it.
been there before. And I... well, on this flights, I told
didn't think there was any way possible they would ever
get any evidence that I had made any, and it was to my
own benefit anyway that they didn't know that I had ever
over the Soviet Union. I'm sure they didn't believe me
but they had no other evidence that I had made any and I
those pilots and I told them - no names - refused to answer.
And they didn't crowd you for the names ?
They pressed it and pressed it, but kept asking the ques-
tion; the same way with the number of flights I had flown
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And they gave you no indication of any knowledge of
any allied participation in this project ?
Powers: They asked me a direct question, other ...other ...na-
tionalities, countries involved with....]: lied to them about
that and told them that we as Americans, who were made
up a of a lot of nationalities and we had... I never mentioned
Greeks, Italians, Germans, I don't even know if I mentioned
British, but maybe I did. I Dlk'kdon't know because just
the make up of the population of the United States.
That was the way you got around this ?
Yes.
Were they... did they.. .
Powers: But they didn't press this, and that xx surprised me
because I thought they would know about... the
0
people being on the base, because all you have to do is
talk to one of those people or anyone talk to them you
know he isn't American. / But they didn't know this or
they didn't press the question.
Did they specifically inquire regarding participation ?
Powers: No. They mentioned. . . any other nationalities or countries,
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Powers: Yes. I told them to& that everyone there, as far as I knew,
I don't know if they were countries or nationalities.
But you parried that by referring to the fact that Americans
were all nationalities ?
had an American passport, an American citizen but they
might have been from other countries originally, but
were American citizens now.
Uh-huh. Now then, another point, and of course this
relates to the trial testimony, you indicated an unfami-
liarity and... and... passed it off as being completely ig-
norant regarding the air base at
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Powers: Yes. I just said that we had landed somewhere and they
figured out that that was where it was. I made a mistake
by tellin gkR them it was on an island and I guess that's
how they figured it out. I'd never been there. I knew
nothing about it and I was very glad that I knew nothing
about it. But we just landed there to refuel and go on be-
cause our airplane wouldn't go without refueling.
As a matter of a fact, did you know :bdx that that was a
base ?
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Powers: Yes. I did know tbc it was a
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form.
Another point is that you had familiarized yourself with
the I n 19 58 ?
Powers: Yeah - that was...
... and... it appeared to us... or it appeared&x in such
a way... or was presented in such a way in the trial as
to support a supposition that this familiarizationwwas
for the purpose of preparing a terminal, point for the
over flight of May 1.
Powers: ... The only thing I told them about this was a lot of their
own beliefs there. The only thing I told them about it -
I knew that theyA6nom knew that that was my destination.. .
and they asked me if I had ever been there before, and I
had been there before, and I figured it was best to tell
them I had because... I'd remembered... if I'm not mistaken,
a visa or so forth ,- I don't know k what it was - something
to do with passports, these people had a record that if I
wasn't mistaken, that I had been there and it might come
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out since that would be released as the destination of my
flight this time. It would be a natural question - has he
ever been here Ic before - so I told them that I had been
there before, but I knew nothing that wwas going on - all
my job was was to take an airplane there. ..I waited around
for transportation home. Went to night clubs, fished, and
so forth.
But you didn't tell the actual nature of purpose of your tdy
0
Powers: I told them I had no idea what the purpose was - my purpose
was to take an airplane there. This time I had heard this
particular thing you mentioned was during the trial when
they read it out.
Didn't it come out during the interrogation?
Powers: . . . This came up that I was just telling you about during the
1 :1
interrogation, but this about the familiarization with
didn't come up.
Well, it came up in that context in the trial that you... that
was their way of presenting it. . . tlEL t you had actually come
there in 1958 to prepare for this... flight in 1960, which you
indicated that you had withheld from them the actual pur -
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pose of your trip in 158 ?
Powers: No, I didn't...I didn't tell them that I went there to prepare
for this. I just told them that I went there, had no idea why
I went ther except to take an airplane -and I stayed a few
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weeks because I had no sway to get back. I was sk waitking
on transportation. My # job - I had no job while I was there
except my time was run on. I went fishing, went to nightclubs,
etc. So far as I know they had no purpose of that but that was
something I wish I had thought about.
Well, they furnished that. They jumped to that conclusion.
The thing... the thing about it is...I don't know if that is their
conclusion or not but... what they said in this thing is not nec-
essarily what they believe. But I didn't think of that or I could
have really played that up.
Now another point where... in which you appeared to have e-
vaded them was in this matter of other over flights. Now I
believe you took... or
took that up in some detail
yesterday so we won't belabor that one. You told them less
than the full truth ?
K Oh, yes.mx , much less.
In regard to your other over flights?
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Powers: I told them that I had had no others - and I had had others, and
I told them that I had never participated in any others, and
I had done that also. In fact, I told them that no one pilot,
unless he was involved, knew that there ever going to be
such a thing. That we had no way of knowing what the
other pilot's mission was going to be even the missions that
were flown out of Turkey and so forth along the border.
That we didn't know that someone was scheduled to fly, he
went, the rest of us minded our own business.
Now then, tell us if you ... can to the best of your recollection,
what went on during the interrogations and ... and the
meaning of this interplay at the trial regarding the tail
markings or the national markings on the U-2 or lack thereof.
Powers: Well, I know that there was no... markings on the tail.
I
Powers: A t the time I flew. But I didn't admit to them that I knew
because, I don't know, for some reason or other I got the
impression that... it might have been better if the airplane
was marked. I don't know why this came up or when it
came up but they were. They talked a lot about that -
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markings... I told them that there had been markings
on it when the airplane was down, that when I got into the
airplane I didn't look at the airplane. I didn't look to
see if they were there or not and I played it up, I think,
was as I can rememb4r that there was no reason why they shouldn't
still be there.
Then you - your evasive tactic had to do with your refusal to
admit that there was no marking on the plane when you flew?
A s a matter of fact, you know the system of ... marking,
placing markings on these planes and removing the marking,
don't you ?
And just to refresh your memory you will recall their
experts got up and said they removed the paint coat by
coat and that there had never been...
..any marking... ?
Well, that surprised me too. I thought maybe it was
just painted over. I don't know how it came off, but I knew
there was no marking on the aircraft.
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Yeah. Well... then... then to sum this up... hurriedly... this
... again I'm reluctant to do so because... there is so much
more we can talk about on this, but time is a factor... You
told them... what you thought they/Gvould find out or knew
anyway and you did on a calculated basis hope to withhold
material that you...
Interr-: Wait for another reel. This is concluding Tape #6 on
15 February 1962. Time is now 1021. Present: Mr. Powers,
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