DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200030005-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 49
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: October 3, 2003
• Sequence Number: 5
• Publication Date: February 14, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

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DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS
Tape: #4
Date 14 February 1962
Time:
Present: Mr, Cunningham
Mr. Powers
Cunning- Well Frank, I think, Kelley told me as were leaving
ham:
he was real glad to have had a chance to talk to you.
Not just from a technical point of view but as a human
being type person. He's retained a very strong interest
in your whole situation ever since the first day, and he's
really a wonderful guy. I dontt know whether you got to
know him at all during training, but -
Powers: No, I didn't but -
Cunning- The rest of the gang of whom you knew all or got to know
ham:
him -- some of them got to know him pretty well back at
Edwards think he's pretty swell. But, he was very genuine
about your associating with the company if you wanted to
and the first thing he said to me when -- Oh,
- Chief cook, bottle washer.
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Cunning- What did you do?
ham:
I donXt know, I just went up the road...
Cunning- Have you had something to eat?
ham:
Powers: I had something to eat.
Would you like a coke or something? How about you, Jim,
would you prefer a coke?
Cunning- No, I could use a little of that hot stuff, itts so damn cold
ham:
up here.
I can give you a coke too if you like.
Cunning- No, thatZs all right.
ham:
Cunning- The first thing he did was to call me and ask if he should
ham :
make a statement to this effect if any inquiry came.
Powers: Naturally.
Cunning- I said, well, I didntt think so because obviously he hadn=t
ham:
had a chance to talk to you and also the whole question
of people making statements had been pretty well centralized
by that time, but hets quite sincere about this. In fact, we
talked about it in the car coming up, but he was unsure as to
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exactly where you might want to locate but you may
now know this, and I=m sure you have had time to think
about it, but the C-130 operation down at Marietta is
quite actively along with the Jet Star, which I think you
may vaguely remember.
Powers: Yes, I remember, twin-engine.
Cunning- Four-engine now. They=ve added, the original prototype
ham:
had Bristol Orphus engines on it, and then when they
finally built it for the Air Force, they built it as a four-
engine job with a little, ah, what is it, it weighs about,
less than 600 pounds each of these engines, and they kick
out around 3, 000 pounds of thrusts a piece.
Powers: It looks big enough.
Cunning- It's a real beautiful little plane. Of course, the Air Force
ham:
bought them in modest quantities. They're horribly ex-
pensive like any jet airplanes today, but that's going on
down there and then, of course, since the President has
taken some active steps regarding reemployment of people
in depressed areas why Lockheed has opened a plant in
West Virginia for sub-assemblies on the 130,
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I said why don't you stop in here and tell the employment office
you'd like to hire somebody knowing that Fairchild which was
right down the road was having trouble keeping their labor
force together, and he said, hell, Lockheed's going to sub-
contract the leading edge of the wing of the new C-141, which
is the, this is the monster cargo, all purpose cargo airplane
which Lockheed has a contract for. So, he said, we have
Lockheed plants all over the east and I said, well, have you
got any thoughts as to which one of these Frank might be
interested in. He said, I don't know, Georgia seemed like
an absolutely first.
Powers: Well, for the ...
Cunning- But, as you think about it
ham:
Powers: I'm qualified for little today exc ept flying , and I don't
even know how I can do that now. So, it would mean that
Cunning- Have you had any, my one experience of getting out of an
ham:
airplane in a hurry from 7, 000 feet -- you know how they
do, they usually jam you back in the next morning and take
you up for a ride.
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Cunning- Have you developed any reservations about flying at all
ham:
since that time?
Powers: No, none at all. I've often wished I could. I saw several
Soviet jets fly over occasionally and it looked awfully nice
just seeing a jet aircraft, even if it did have a red star on
the wing. I believe I have to do a lot of thinking about this,
I don't know. Itm sure that the Air Force is letting me out.
Cunning- Have you talked to
ham:
on the subject.
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Powers: Yes, and he said we prefer not to have too much to do with
this, and I can understand that, and that brings up the prob-
lem too because see I would have had something like, what
is this, '62, about twelve years in the service and retire-
ment would be closer.
Cunning- Age closer -
ham:
Powers: Uh huh, and that, I had planned, I mean I had thought that
when all of this was over maybe I could. I hadn't thought
that there would be a lot of reasons why it wouldn't be a
good idea, but I can see that there is, so that's all right.
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Cunning- Well, I think you need not be concerned that somebody is
ham:
going to just pull a chain on you at a certain point here, I
mean if it isn't Kelley, it will be somebody else, and we
have the responsibility in which we will see is filled. Of
course, as you know, the purely flying jobs are not falling
off trees these days.
Powers: Right. Well, it might be pretty difficult. It's been almost
two years since I've been in one of them, and I'm sure I
could fly but
Cunning- Well, you know, it's amazing. I've been away from it a
ham:
lot longer than you have, and I got an aircraft in the spring
of last year while I was on a trip, and I had, that was the
only choice I had, to either charter an airplane or walk.
Powers: Um hum.
Cunning- So, I said well abba kadabber and a way we go, and I had
ham :
to cock the check and a fast fifteen minutes with the
manual and got in and flew- it away. I wouldn't say I made
the world's greatest takeoff and landing the first time.
Powers: You might have.
Cunning- But, it was amazing to me just how much stuck with me and,
ham:
as I say, I haven't been flying actively since 1951, and since
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that time it's been, I really think its like driving a bike.
Powe rs: Or, driving a car.
Cunning- The only thing you've got to watch yourself on is your
ham:
habits, so that you dontt goof off and forget the checklist.
Cunning- And it's amazing how many old and bold boys still do for-
ham:
get the checklist. We had one not long ago where a guy
had 14, 000 hours and landed wheels up.
Powers: That happens quite often.
Cunning- It's the old story, he was too tired to see the light, and the
ham:
horn didn't make enough noise, and the samethings have
been going on since I can remember.
Powers: Well, that was very nice of you to mention this. Of course,
I'll have to wait and see what all happens and how every-
thing turns out.
Cunning- Well, I think, excuse me, I spoke to this 25X1
ham:
morning, and we, of course, have had your records until -
Powers: Yeah, I want to say something about this.
Cunning- He's got your records, your contract, and all that sort of
ham:
thing, so we can begin administering the contract all over
again in a sense, you know, because you are in a different:
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status right now. But you're not going to be just termi-
nated from the contract. You're still on it. You were
on it the whole time you were gone.
Powers: Well, I think, I didn't know what the contract would be,
but I think my father was telling me that Eisenhower had
said my pay wouldn't go home or something like that. I
was wishing at the time he wouldn't have said it, because
he said it in front of some of those people over there. Of
course, it didn't hurt anything. Even this is something
that surprised. me. Coming back from Moscow to Berlin,
the interpreter, seemed to me he was a lawyer, I'm not
sure, a fairly old man. Well, I couldn't guess his age.
Well, he said that he had read American laws and said
that they had to continue my pay.
Cunning- He's pretty right:'. In other words, the so-called missing-
ham:
in-action clause became effective, which simply freezes
the contract as it is.
Powers: Did we have a clause like that in there?
Cunning- Um hum. Well, this contract came under the provisions
ham:
of the Missing Persons Act, so-called, which was simply
a line in the contract that effects -
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Powers: That brings up something else, speaking of this contract.
See I told them, the papers, later I realized it was a very
stupid thing to do, but at the time I thought it was best, be-
cause I was trying to impress them with the fact that
everything I told them was the truth,, so that when I wanted
to tell them a lie they would not harp on it too much and may-
be believe it. And, I was trying to anticipate what would be
in the press. And, I can remember, never in something
like this, but when something happens to someone they
usually have what job hers doing, how much pay hers making,
etc. , and I thought it might possibly be this. And I was
pretty shook up at the time too, and I guess that kept me
from thinking too good. But, I don't guess it would ever
have been released if I hadn't said anything about it.
Cunning- No, we would not have, I don't think.
ham:
Powers: I thought that was one of the things that might have been
and,
Cunning- No, that certainly is an administrative detail which was
ham:
included among the things which we would have ordinarily
expected that would have been throw away items as the
trade talk goes. In other words, things that, of them by
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themselves were riot critical in terms of the actual point
which we wanted to preserve.
Powers: Um hum.
Cunning- So that the actual pay, while it was discussed, I think it
ham:
was more of a surprise to the Russian people than it was
to anybody on this side of the water.
Powers: Did they release the figure to the papers?
Cunning- Well, I believe at the trial was it not mentioned?
ham:
Powers: Oh yes, it was.
Cunning- I read newspaper reports saying it was, and all the murmur
ham:
of the crowds and everybody was saying ooh or something
like that.
Powers: Yes, I think that. Well, I was trying to do my best and
didn2t know quite what to do part of the time.
Cunning- Itts a little hard to get any close guidance under those
ham:
circumstances.
Powers: Yes.
Cunning- I gather you know about the group coming up here tomorrow
ham:
who will be here representing our operations interests,
and I just wanted to have a word with you on this. We have
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our portion of it, letts say, which deals primarily with
machinery and aerodynamics, and the mission itself,
and the briefing, and all that you received, so that we are
responsible basically for this portion of your--have you
got enough--so that my appearance at this point with Kelley
was simply to discuss a portion of this but not necessarily
to go into the depth that some of the boys from Mission
Planning Business will want to do. I think you know most
of these boys-
Powers: Thatts the name Itve been trying to think of.
Cunning- Hets been with us since he came back from over there,
chap, who is our intell chief in the division.
Powers: Oh, no.
Cunning-
ham:
are both in the division. There will be
also one guy who is coming in from Omaha,
whom Itm not sure you knew. He was major
at that point. He is now a civilian. A white-haired
Powers: Yes.
25X1 Cunning-
ham:
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is out with General Power now in SAC, and he and
another chap named
whom you dontt know,
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who is representing, well, he's from the Navy--hers a
civilian.
Powers: Um hum.
25X1 Cunning- There's who are here as representa-
tives of what has now- become since you gone the Defense
Intelligence Agency, which is the militant combination of
the old A-2, G-2, ONI combine, and General Carroll, who
used to head OSI, is the head man in that, and they're act-
ing, in effect, as a focal point for all the areas of interest
and, of course, you can imagine how many there are.
Every service has an item of concern.
Powers: Right.
Cunning- SAC, of course, you can understand the indoctrinal side of
it. Where do we go from here in our cefet~se of (prospering),
etc. So that they will be here,
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here simply as observers. On the other hand, they may
want to ask you a question, but they have not got an active
44 4-
role in the script as were.
if he can 25X1
get up out of the sick bed, he will be up as well, and I
think that's about it. Now, I've asked
chair the group, because he has worked, I think, more
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consistently on the whole problem from the operation
point of view than any of us. In fact, this book that
you were looking at in here was virtually his baby. And,
so this again is designed to give us a record of the
chronology beginning with the presumably the time you
and covering the whole thing, mission briefings,
weather, and the whole bloody business.
Powers: A lot of thatts hard to recall.
Cunning- I realize that, and I had suggested to them that they do this
ham:
gradual sort of thing because I think you'll find even though
there's been a considerable lapse of time, that as these
questions come up -
Powers: The questions will help.
Cunning- Things were going to be, Jesus, I hadn't thought of that in
ham:
months, you know, but come to think of it, this is what did
happen. Colonel Beerli would have been here, except he
got himself married last Saturday.
Powers: That's what I heard.
Cunning- And, I had more trouble finding him than I had finding you.
ham:
He apparently has left without a trace.
Powers: I heard he was going to Florida and then to Sun Valley.
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Cunning- He changed Sun Valley to Stowe, Vermont, at the last
ham:
moment, so, as near as I can tell, if he isn't south, hets
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north. But, their questioning I don't think is going to
take too horribly long, but you may find, of course, in
the course of these various discussions you may be going
over the same thing time and time again. This is not be-
ing done to trap you. But, for example, General Powers
called yesterday. He wanted his man tomorrow in this
act, etc. , and then we sort of moved it over and got a
channel through Defense Intelligence, but he said o. k. , but
I still would like, at some point further down stream, a
couple weeks from now maybe to have Powers flown out
to Omaha for a day up here, because some of the people in
the tactics side are going to be anxious to question you, and
I have a message in here which came in from Omaha with a
lot of detail, with a lot of things that they are interested in--
some of which are identical with the things we are interested in,
but others which pertain only to SAC's problems.
Powers: tiJm hum.
Cunning- And, Igx sure there will be others. I think probably the
ham:
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Navy has their interest is, oh yes, there's one more chap
who's coming up named
who's from our OSI,
I don't think you know him, but he's the ELINT expert on
readout of ELINT tapes, etc. I think he may want to ask
you some questions about ..... briefs, and that sort of
thing.
Powers: What could the Navy be interested in?
Cunning- Navy has a heck of an interest in the Granger.
ham:
Powers: Uh huh, that ah -
Cunning -
ham: Which and, of course, Kelly has. Because, Kelly at one
point, in fact, Kelly and I were talking about it last night.
One of the early problems we had with Granger under cer-
tain operative conditions, itt ended to reverse itself and to
act as a beacon. Now, this was rectified by, very early
in the game, long before it was deployed by simply in-
creasing the power output and redesigning the gear a
little bit. There's no indication since 1 May 1960 that
there has been a duplication of any such phenomenon,
and we don't say that there was but there's nothing to
lead us to believe that it operated in that way in your case.
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Cunning- But, everybody's got a piece of an interest in the thing,
ham:
and I know its going to be exhaustive for you, but I as-
sure you, it's being undertaken with the desire to increase
the information available to us, and not to embarrass you
or to make an issue somewhere else.
Powers: I don't think anyone, maybe we shouldn't say that.
Cunning- But, I'm quite sure that SAC will be interested in whether
ham:
or not any of the line of questioning you underwent involved
SAC, your knowledge of SAC and their tactics, etc. I mean,
you might just be turning this over in your mind as you
think about it.
Powers: Um hum. They were interested in SAC, but not as that.
I think .... they wanted to know if any of my (flights)
were flown in coordination with other (flights), I mean
the border (flights). I told them that was, well they know
nothing about some of these other things.
Cunning- Yeah. Did you ever get the feeling in the course of this
ham:
thing that there was an expert airman involved in briefing
you. In other words, were there any, debriefing, debrief-
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ing, were there any people whom you could clearly
recognize as knowledgeable aerodynamist or power plant
people?
Powers: They, they had what they called some experts in this with
questions, and the committee of them-
Cunning- Was this just prior to the trial, I imagine?
ham:
Powers: It was before the trial sometime. I don't remember what
year, but they talked about the equipment, were interested
in the airplane, they had one man I only saw him one time.
He was defintely a pilot, and I don't know whether he was
just trying to k4ix trick me or not, but pretty stupid ques-
tions, he asked. He just couldn't understand how I could
,undertake such a flight without practicing just inside the
border... He was probably trying to get me to admit I
had been across the border more than once.
Cunning- Did they ever ask you about your Middle Eastern flights?
ham:
Powers: They, I don't think they know about those. The only other
thing they brought up, the April 9th flight. They wanted
to know where I was on April the 9th. Of course, I was
there, and I told them I had no way of knowing where I
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was on April the 9th, I can't remember. What day was
that, and they said Saturday, I think. I said, probably
drunk at the officers club. And they let it go. But, they
kept-
Cunning- They didn't know how much you drank, in other words.
haiu
Powers: No, they kept harping on me. They didn't believe me
that I had only flown one flight. I never told them any
difference. They just, that there was one, and they kept
coming back to that and they also mentioned some B-57-
D flights out of Germany in 1956, which I think there was
a little mistake on the aircraft, but nothing about this
Middle East. They didn't bring it up.
Cunning- I believe, as I remember-
ham:
Powers: Also, there was nothing about this operation we had in
1957, I believe it was.
Cunning- The one that
ham:
Powers: Um hum.
Cunning- Do you aei-k t-e attribute this, I mean, did they ever say
why they didnt?
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Powers: No, they were asking me what the job was, and I told
them I was hired primarily to fly along the border, and
we also did weather flights, etc. , and I played up this
border deal quite a bit, because I knew that they knew
that was going on. And, they asked about other flights,
and I told them I had even flown over the Mediterranean on
weather flights, but they asked no questions, and I volun-
teered no information on any of the Middle Eastern coun-
tries. And, as far as I know, it appears to me that they
didn=t even think of it, and I can't understand that.
Cunning- Of course, this is all hazardous guessing, maybe on my
ham:
part, but one of the things I have sort of suspicioned for
a long time is that they were trying to make you on this
one activity. yea You know, after all if a guy is, letts
change the analogy for a moment, but if you are involved
in a long career of breaking and entering, it may be suf-
ficient for the pu rposes of the law to bring the trial on
a single robbery. The rest of it is just too much trouble.
Powers: Well, they, I don't know, I don't believe that if they had
known that information they would have tried to have gotten
it out of me.
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Cunning- Did they ask you how many hours you had in the U-2?
ham:
Powers: Yes. I told them, as near as I could guess, the approxi-
mate truth.
Cunning- Um hum.
ham :
Powers: But, and that's why I played up this weather flightts im-
portance, because I had to fill up those hours.
Cunning- Sure. As we looked over the record of the number of
ham:
flights afterwards, you, like the .... you had more Middle
Eastern flights than anybody put together, you had eighteen.
Powers: I dontt know.
Cunning-
ham: Of which we could classify as Middle Eastern flights.
And, of course, I was always curious, and I know a lot
of as were, as to whether that had just been not discussed
with you.
Powers: That definitely surprised me, because I was expecting that
all the time, because it seems to me that even if they
didn't know that they would have assumed that an airplane of
this capability would have been good in that.
Cunning- Did they ever ask you in any kind of detail how stagings
ham:
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were undertaken? Any of the business of where you de-
rived your logistics support?
Powers: Yes.
Cunning- What kind of airplanes flew you into the staging area
ham:
and so on?
Cunning- Did that seem to interest them a great deal, or were
ham:
they just sort of passing along in the course of that?
Powers: It didn't seem to interest them very much. They didn't
refer to it very much, but just asked. I told them some,
because If igured they knew about it. I don't know
whether they did or not, but I know they do know a lot about
the border flights, because I had heard that when we would
take our border flights, there were other planes in the air,
and so they knew there was probably U-2s and other planes,
and they asked me this, and, of course, I knew nothing
about it.
Cunning- Did they ever say in so many words that they knew the U-2
ham:
had been flying on the borders to you?
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Cunning- They did not. Or, did they ever say that they knew that
ham:
the U-2 had been overflying the Soviet Union before, or
did they?
Powers: They mentioned April the 9th. I donit know whether they
said U-2.
Cunning- Other than the 9th?
ham:
Powers: But, I don1t think so.
Cunning- This was our old friend,
Ham:
25X1 Powers: No, that was
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Cunning- Oh yes, it was,
ham:
in the days I remember.
Cunning- Yeah, because I know I got the .... the day he got up from
ham :
down below ... .
Powers: They asked me about that, if there were any other nationali-
Cunning- How did you answer the question of the other nationalities?
ham :
Powers: I told them (no). The United States is made up of several
nationalities. We have French, we have Italians, Greeks,
ties working there, and they know nothing of
being with us.
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and there, and I said I know we have a couple of Italians
there. I answered it that way, that these people were
Americans, but their nationalities was-
Cunning- You couldn't tell what their nationality was from their
ham:
name ?
Powers: Um hum. But, they didn't harp on that either.
So, apparently they don't know anything about their co-
operation.
Cunning- I know the people over there were waiting around for
ham:
the other shoe to drop.
Powers: Boy, I knew they would be sitting there waiting.
Cunning- Even after the trial, there was a feeling on their part,
ham:
well, they're saving this one for the UN.
Cunning- The General Assembly meeting, and, of course, when
ham:
it didn't come about, it really mystified some people,
particularly
and the first thing I got on
Monday morning was a cable over there saying, don't
forget, we're still interested.
Powers: Um hum.
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Cunning- This was from
ham:
Powers: Well, they know nothing about it, as far as I know.
Cunning- Did they ever ask you if the Turkish Air Force was
ham :
involved?
Powers: No, they never did.
Cunning- They never asked you about any of the Turkish person
h.am:
alities who might have come into the act of it, and any
end of detachment? I realize that .... Itm concentrat-
ing on the air phase here simply -
Powers: They asked about the base, whether it was purely an
American base or whether Turkish personnel were on
the base, and I told them it was Turkish personnel.
Cunning- Um hum.
ham:
Powers: And, but as far as whether they had any concern with us
or not, I dontt think they -
Cunning- Did they ever ask you any leading questions in the area of
ham:
airfield information on domestic airfields in the United
States or airfields in Europe, or any sort of that thing?
Powers: No, but they got my jet letdown chart, and they had a
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radio fact chart of Europe? I think it was, but as far as
any information, they were only interested in Turkey
there and Adana.
Cunning- Um hum. They never asked you, for example, that you
ham:
flew from Cyprus or any of that sort of thing?
Powers: No. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, telling them about taking a
flight from Germany to the United States. It was actually
to the United States, but I didn't want to
so I changed it. to Germany, and
Cunning- They mentioned it to you, or you mentioned it to them,
ham:
or something?
Powers: I can't remember. I think I must have mentioned it to
them.
Cunning- But, they never asked you, or did they mention, ask
ham:
you any questions about the German Air Force, for
example, and their knowledge of these activities?
Powers: No, as well as I can remember.
Cunning- Did they seem to be astounded in any way about a range
ham:
as they presumably extrapolated it in the aircraft when
they talked to you about ferry flights, for example, from
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Germany to the states, did they ask you where you re-
fueled, or any of that sort of thing?
Powers: No, see they had my flight plan, the map, and that was
(Max) ranged.
Cunning- Did they know it was (Max) range, or did they just sort
ham :
Powers: I think they could figure it out by the fuel chart, etc.
Cunning- Did you get quizzed on how many gallons you had at
ham:
high (cone) and on a normal flight, or any of that sort
of business? What your radio communications procedures
were?
Powers: Yes. They were very interested in whether I had made a
radio call at the time this took place, and I didntt tell
them for quite a while. Later on, I admitted that I had
made none, because I had made some sort of a bargain
with them. You see, I thought they would not notify
the United States officials. I don't know, a lot of things
were running through my mind at that time. I was pretty
shook up, and I wanted you people to know, and also my
relatives, and I thought that maybe I would just be shot
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and forgot about. Of course, I didn't realize that they
wouldn't do that, because of the publicity they'd get from
it. I didn't realize at the time, so I told them I wouldn't
answer this question until they notified my people, and
they said-
Cunning- This was presumably though after this whole thing had
ham:
Powers: They had already been notified.
Cunning- By Khrushchev's, what was it, the 5th of May, I gues, -
ham:
Powers: And, I think it was somewhere around the 15th that they
told me that Khrushchev had mentioned it, and also that
some of the things, that my wife was on the way to the
states, and all that sort of stuff, or was with, or was in
the states, and since they know these radios better than I
do probably, and they knew what type they were, and they
know the range of them, I could see no reason to tell them
that I did contact you people because they could prove that
I didn't.
Cunning- Um hum.
ham:
Powers: That was my thinking.
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Cunning- Did they ever ask you whether you had any familiarity
ham:
with single sideband equipment?
Cunning- In other words, the SAC communications system.
ham:
In other words, did they ask you whether this aircraft
was completed any differently than any other airplanes
you flew at any time. In other words, in the sense of
there may have been some things on this one which might
not have been on some of the other detachment aircraft or
vice versa.
Powers: Well, I told them I knew nothing at all about the equipment,
and I told them that when the equipment was loaded, no one
saw it but the people asd thh- who loaded it, and the map
showed what to do, when to turn on the switch, etc. And,
they asked quite a few questions about this, but I couldn't
give them answers, because I didn't know what was on it.
I told them I assumed that there were different kinds of
equipment, because you couldn't take pictures at night.
Cunning- Yeah.
ham :
Powers: And I said also some was heavier than others, and that this
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one was one of the lighter ones, so that I could get up the
maximum altitude, etc.
Cunning- Um hum.
ham:
Powers: I don't know-
Cunning- Did they ever indicate to you that they thought that this
ham :
maximum altitude figure that you stuck to was possibly
not the maximum altitude?
Powers: Well, the only indication, they never indicated as such,
but they told me later that they had read, I think in the
American papers, that the U. S. planned to continue these
flights at 75, 000 feet, and wanted to know if, I think they
asked me then if this airplane would get to that altitude,
and I said not unless they had a different engine.
Cunning- Um hum.
ham:
Powers: Now, I don't know what their experts can do with the
wreckage, or whether they can figure out from everything
what it would do, but-
Cunning- Pretty damn hard.
ham:
Powers: They didn't seem to disbelieve me on the altitude.
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Cunning- They had the aspect ratio pretty well hacked. In the
ham:
public utterances anyway, so that they, as Kelly said to
me several times, they would know the lift characteristics,
of course. The only thing that might confuse them would be
range under certain conditions and speeds under conditions,
except that you're always working within the subsonic envelope.
Powers: Well, I told them the air speeds on different aircraft were
different, because of the errors and everything, so that
they couldn't or maybe would not take my checklist to be,
or my speed schedules, etc. , to be identical with others
and sothat-
Cunning- Did they go over the mission profile with you, for example,
ham:
and ask you what your set patterns were for climb out and
level off, and setting up cruise conditions, your power
settings? Did they get into all that jazz and everything?
Powers: No, they didn't get into all that, and there were some nota-
tions on my flight log and maps that had some of this in-
formation on it that they had, but they didn't pay much at-
tention to that.
Cunning- You had a knee pad that day, or did you, or were you making
ham :
your entries on your, in your-
9 AM MV
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Powers: Well, I had the knee pad, the flight log on my knees,
and I made a lot of notations on the map also.
Cunning- Had you been keeping that right up to the moment when,
ham:
huh?
Powers: Yes and, in fact, I was, I think doing that, or just com-
pleted doing that, reading the instruments and putting the
readings down when this happened, but some of that was
missing.
Cunning- Hum. You mean some of the actual document itself?
ham:
Powers: I didn't know that they had it in such a way that they brought
it in in a folder of some kind.
Cunning- Urn hum.
ham:
Powers: And showed the whole, the whole thing, and asked me a
few questions about it. I looked at it, there was a square
out of one place, was torn off, and apparently they didn't
have it. I cant remember just exactly what that covered.
My fuel and oxygen consumption chart was not on it.
Cunning- I see.
ham:
Powers: I don''t know where it was. It must have been torn off, or
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something, but there was an old, you know the printed
form of this. We made them all and pasted them on.
The printed one was on it.
Cunning- Uh huh.
ham:
Powers: There were some of these instrument readings left, and
also the altitudes, and I'm very thankful that I used plus
20, plus 20.
Cunning- I see, base, plus 20.
ham:
Powers: And, base is 48, so it made 68. The way I was thinking
there was, well I feel sure that they shot me down some-
where. That's my opinion, and I figured if they could do
that, then they knew fairly close what the altitude was. I
wanted to save as much as possible, but I didn't figure I
could go down safe to 65 because 5, 000 feet might make too
much difference, so I said 68.
Cunning- Did they ever discuss the maximum interception performance
ham:
of any of their Soviet manned aircraft with you, like the
MIG-19, the MIG-17?
Powers: No, they're aks-w always bragging about having airplanes
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that could fly that high, etc. , but-
Cunning- Did they ever mention zoom flying capability in any of
ham:
their aircraft? In other words, we've stripped down a
19 that can go higher than you can.
papers
Powers: No, but there were several releases in thethere
later when they said they set records with this E-66, I
think they called it, or something like that, but that's the
only thing. They never during the investigation, they
never said a word about it. They just were sorta bragging
that they had things that could fly that high, but I figured
they didn't have, or we would (have been flying them).
Cunning- But they never specifically mentioned the employment of
ham :
any Soviet man tactical aircraft against any U-Zs in the
past, or anything of that kind?
Powers: No, the only thing they mentioned actually when they said
there was a flight on April the 9th. I said well if there was
a flight on April the 9th, why didn't you shoot it down? I
intentions
was waiting to see what his ixb tx .K were, and he didn't
come in as far as you did.
Cunning- Oh .
ham:
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Powers: That's right.
Cunning- Could you draw an inference from that, that the thing
ham:
that excited their actions on the 1st of May was the distance
in as opposed to the mere fact that it was a penetration?
Powers: No. This was, their story was that-
Cunning- Alibi for themselves.
ham:
Powers: Yes, they were waiting to see whether the plane was,
what its intentions were, `arY-e trii iaa~e ii~rrrcnscx~ax~e when it
got so far in, they assumed that it was hostile and shot it
down, implying that they could have done it much earlier.
Cunning- Did they ever discuss their tracking of you in any way?
ham :
Powers: They gave me, showed me charts that had radar track on
them, but it was on the map.
Cunning- Would you say, that compared to the charts you've seen
ham:
here, that it resembled this chart in any way?
Cunning- I know they'll ask you other questions on it presumably in
ham:
the next day or so.
Powers: They didn't say very much about it at all, except just-
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Cunning- Do you want the largeone or the small one? This one?
ham:
Powers.: No, the other one. I think it was very similar to the one they
had on the wall there at Gorki Park, or whatever park that
was.
Cunning- Oh yes, Gorki.
ham:
Powers: And they had, every altitude reading they had there was
20, 000 meters, except the one they had at 22, 000.
Cunning- Yeah.
ham:
Powers: And I think, well, it wasntt like this.
Cunning- As I recall, the chart they had looked, the one that was on
ham:
the wall, they had squared it off this way, so that the line
looked as though it were going this way, the bottom down
here was down there, close to where we had it.
Powers: I dontt remember exactly.
Cunning- Um hum. Yeah. This was the hunch we had. In fact,
ham:
some of the photographs, not the photographs they handed
out but the photographs which we managed to get from people
who had gone through the display, they were a little bit
more indicative, although they kept from hustling through,
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they had a camera, indicated that the compartment back
there had been retained fairly intact.
Powers: It looked like-
Cunning- There was some sort of reflection on -
ham :
Powers: And, the tape, it was different. They had a couple of places
that I was making quite a few turns, where I didntt make
any turns. I mean weaving back and forth in some places,
and I definitely didn't do that in the flight. I noticed that,
in particular, they had had, what are all these?
Cunning- These are your flight altitudes reported on their net. In
ham-:
other words, 69, 9. In other words they were all screwed
up, as you can see here.
Powers: 68-8. Well, they had on the one they showed me, 20, 000
meters, 20, 000 meters, 22, 000 meters, and then back
down to 20, 000 meters.
Cunning- Uh huh.
ham:
Powers: But, they didn't have this. Penetration at 29?
Cunning- Yes, thatts where k they had penetrating, at 29.
ham :
Powers: And then, their chart implied or showed that they had
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picked me up back over Afghanistan somewhere.
Cunning- Oh, I see.
ham:
Powers: And, ah-
Cunning- As I recall, your chart also had the turnoff points, your
ham:
various abort points on here with your headings to home,
didn't they?
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I had it in my flight suit pocket, it was torn
up in my parachute.
Powers: It had up here. I had another chart that had turnoff points
Cunning- Oh, I see. They never confronted you with that?
ham:
I remember at the time-
Powers: There were several groups. Most of them were going
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Cunning- Yeah. At the time, when we finally got throughto Colonel
ham:
Shelton, and to
they recalled you having had
such a chart with these various headings to various homes,
bases you know, and the .... we never knew whether they
had it or didn't have it-
Powers: No, because it didatt show. I tore it in very small
pieces and it must have scattered over a big area. They
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couldn't have possibly have gotten it.
Cunning- Did you manage to get rid of anything else as you were
ham: dissembling your chute?
Powers: No. I felt around for my seat pack, but couldn't find it.
Cunning- Oh, that did not go with you, huh?
ham:
Powers: Well, I don't know, because they brought it in with me,
but I suppose maybe it slipped out or something, and,
well, I don't know what use it would have had.
The shook up condition I was in right then, but I was still
looking for that thing. I was going to open it up and try
to take some stuff out.
I had some more stuff in my pockets that I could have
taken out, but, well, I didn't know where I was going to
land, and some of that stuff I wouldntt need. I wish I'd
gotten rid of those escape maps and routes.
Cunning- Did they work you over a considerable bit on the escape
ham:
maps?
Powers: No. They went over the thing, showed them to me. In
fact, there was another mistake, I had more than just the
maps to cover my routes. At first, I think there were
two flights planned.
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Cunning- These are the cloth maps, right?
ham :
Powers: The cloth maps. One of these flights would be going,
and we didn't know just which one it would be, and
either in my seat pack or my pockets, or somewhere, I
had both sets of the escape maps.
Cunning- I see.
ham:
Powers: And there was writing on one of these packages that was
Cunning-
ham:
saying in case one is cancelled
here are the others and initials. And its, it wasn't too
good, but if I had made up a story, it wouldn=t have hammed
out with the one that was released Ibm to the papers back in
states, but it was impossible to stick to. The Russian news,
that was the worst thing, and only my escape maps of the
Soviet Union. I figured that if any flights like this were to
go in the future, it would be a good idea for the man to have
maps of an entirely different area. Say,
I
You mean as a sort of decoy?
Powers: As a decoy. I believe that maybe, well, with this camera
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equipment I'd destroyed completely, they probably wouldn't
have believed me, but I could have stuck to it anyway.
Cunning- Sure.
ham:
Powers: But, the way it was they had the evidence.
Cunning- Yeah.
ham :
Powers: They had it.
Cunning- Did the major part of their interrogation on the aircraft
ham:
systems, etc. , did that occur prior to or after your visit
Cunning- Prior to, which you figure in the month of May, wasn't it,
ham:
when they took you?
Powers: I don't remember exactly when it was, but it was in May.
Cunning- So there was no attempt to take you first to there, and then
ham :
interrogate you knowing, knowing how much they had-
Powers: That was what I had assumed. I had no idea what kind of
condition any of this stuff would be in, and when they were
going to interrogate me, and I told them politely that I
knew nothing at all about any of the equipment whatsoever,
and never gave them any information. I told them we had a
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tracking camera, because when they took me in, I saw
someone bring in a little tracking camera, and I said
that that was used to course directions for weather flights,
well, we used it on all flights.
So that we could plot the course, etc.
Cunning- What piece of equipment on the aircraft seemed to interest
ham:
them the most you had, looking back on the whole total of
interrogation?
Powers: Well, they asked a lot of questions about the camera, the
camera, but-
Cunning- Questions of what kind?
ham:
Powers: And they had some information. I donut know whether it
was correct information, but they had focal lens, etc. ,-
Cunning- Did they ask you about resolution of the finished product?
ham:
Powers: I told them I'd never seen it finished.
Cunning- I see.
ham:
Powers: And, they did not believe me.
Cunning- One of things which occurred to me, of course, afterwards
ham:
is that you were in the group down at i Iwhen Colonel
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Geary and I came down afterhaving been in
0
we had a, you remember, we had a display of selected
portions of the finished product?
Powers: Um hum.
Cunning- In the Operations Room, and I kicked myself in the shins
ham:
any number of times after that, because I thought that they
might, you know, ask you this question, had you seen the
finished product?
Powers: Well, they asked it, but I had never seen it.
Cunning- Yeah. Did they quiz you at all onl
ham:
Powers: Yes, they-
Cunning- Ask you what the hell it was for, or how?
ham:
Powers: They seemed to display quite a bit of interest in 1/ that
and weld had a briefing on that, and I knew approximately
how it worked, but I just told that that, as far as I knew,
it was nd that I knew nothing
about it, had never seen it. I was just told to turn on the
switch.
Cunning- They still had this, the on and off switch
ham:
take it, amongst their souvenirs, didn't they?
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Powers: I don't remember seeing it, and besides this wasntt the
regular panel. It was different from
panel.
Cunning- Did they ask you at all about -
ham:
Powers: Let me say this here, from the condition of the tail,
they probably got
Cunning- This was the hunch we had. In fact, some of the photo-
ham:
graphs, not the photographs that they handed out, but the
photographs that we managed to get from people who had
gone through the display. They were a little bit more
indicative, although they kept the hustling through if they
had a camera, indicated that the compartment back there
had been contained fairly intact.
Powers: It looked like-
Cunning- There was some sort of reflection on the bottom part of the ho
ham:
housing, you know-
Powers:. No, I didn't see that.
Cunning- But, nothing up there in that little pressure-
ham:
Powers: They wouldn't let me get too close, I had to stay back be-
hind the ropes and look down from there. To me, the
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tail section didn't look as damaged as this shows, as
well as I can remember. I noticed particularly that
the wings had holes in them, and I had no idea, I thought
to myself that it may have been some sort of flak xx
but I think I would have felt-
Cunning- During that time you were getting out of the window or
ham:
dissembling, you did not see any flak or shrapnel, or
you saw no other airplane in the air making runs on bits
of pieces of the airplane, etc?
Powers: That's what surprised me, even in the parachute, and
on the ground, the only thing I noticed, I'm almost
positive of the, was the parachute. Well, I would say,
it was high, maybe 10, 000 feet. I could just see, and it
was, I think, colored. It might have been some red in it
or maybe something similar to the one I had, orange or
something, and I couldn't imagine what it would be, and
at the time the thought that hit me was when to my chute
opened, shot toward the seat pack, because I felt and
couldn't find it, and maybe the (dinghy) had inflated, but
then I got to thinking that the dinghy would have 6 fell
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faster than I would have in the chute, so Itm almost
positive that .... and these other men asked me-
Cunning- About two?
ham:
Powers: If there were two up there. They saw the same thing
up there.
Cunning- Did they at all, Frank, ask you about companies that
ham:
were involved in the project beyond Lockheed? Did
they ask you about any of the suppliers?
Powers: Well, you see they had some of this equipment made
by these different places, but they didntt ask me about
it. I told them that I knew nothing about this, and that
I never saw equipment loaded or anything. They asked,
well, they had the flight instruments, or what was left
from them, etc. As a matter of fact, they were at
such and such a place and even when going around,
they had me look occasionally at it and read it off. I
don`t
xntxthink they could have caught me with anything,
but as far as asking me questions about the companies,
I cannot remember saying one.
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Cunning- They didntt, in other words, assume that the companies
ham:
had representatives overseas with you?
Powers: I didn't get the impression that they had even thought
about that.
Cunning- In the course of the interrogation on this questioning,
ham :
did they ask you questions having to do with the number
of military versus civilians?
Powers: Yes, they were very interested in that, and I just told
them it was sort of a combination. Now, I got to think-
ing later, maybe that was a mistake. I didntt know quite
what to do, whether to make it military or civilian or
both, since I was a civilian. There had to be civilians,
and since we were operating out of a military base, there
had to be military, so I said it was sort of a combination.
Cunning- It seemed obvious that they had, in other words, Colonel
ham:
Shelton, did they give you the works on Colonel Shelton?
It seems as though they were paying an awful lot of at-
tention to him.
Powers: Yes, they wanted to know about him, and I told them again
because I thought that would be the thing to do.
Cunning- That was in the framework of your instructions.
ham:
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Powers: I thought it would have been there, and I wanted it to
appear that anything that might be in the papers that
I was telling the absolute truth to them, so that I could
hide some of this other stuff.
Cunning- As a result of another debriefing of another U. S. citizen,
ham :
temporarily in their custody, the interrogator of this
other party made a wild statement at one point. This
was oh, last summer. That in the eyes of the Soviet Union,
the master badmen, as far as they could see were, what
the heck was it, there were three people, President
Eisenhower was the first, the second was Allen Dulles,
and the third was Colonel William Sheldon. The arch
emeny of the Soviet Union.
Powers: They just didn't like any of the American Government.
Cunning- Itm afraid not. Did they ever attempt to discuss with
ham:
you who made the decisions on these flights?
Powers: Yes, they tried their best to find out about that.
Cunning- Did they try to slant your answers to the military, or
ham:
were they trying to slant them to the President, or did
they try to get f you to want to say they were .... ?
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Powers: Well, I told them all I knew was I didn't know until
shortly before, that we usually waited on a radio call
before taking off.
Cunning- Did they want to know where that call came from?
ham:
Powers: Yes, and I said I had no idea. They were interested in
communications also, and I said nobody could get around
those people, so I don't know nothing about it.
Cunning-
ham: You mean what kind of service the base had and all
that sort of thing?
Powers: No, the detachment. They were interested in that. I
think they even brought up, let's see, I don't remember
about that, but they were talking about the detachment.
I don't remember whether they brought up the base com-
munications or not.
Cunning- Did they try to push you on the question whether the corn-
ham:
munications, that is those pertaining to flight operations,
for example, were on different circuits than used by the
military, were they on agency?
Powers: Well, they were trying to find this out and I told them I
had no idea where they came from.
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