(DELETED) INTERVIEW WITH... (RE ARTICHOKE)

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00140397
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 2
• Document Creation Date: September 25, 2024
• Document Release Date: October 4, 1999
• Publication Date: March 11, 1952

cc Memorandum � UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TO
Via
FROM
SUBJECT:
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Morse ':Allen.ti7.h3
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DATE: 11 March 1952
questing permission to interview . n connection with.the
1. Reference is made to my emorandum ted 6 February 1952 re-
Artichoke problem.
an e w Fier in
2. On 7 March 1 -vas interviewed from 10:00 A14 to
11:50 AM by
1,111111111,
. 3. Although . is a fully cleared Agency employee and
holds a responsib'e 'position Jnd the writer dis- '
cussed random subjects with nti it was established that
he-was competent, had a gene arinterest in Artichoke type work, and
appreciated the necessary secrecy inv i this type of discussion.
Having establishe s re ses, was interVIewed along
Artichoke line's. afte naving been given a brief resume
of the Artichoke or s a 4d that, whereas he was interested in the
problem, he wanted it clearly understood that he felt morally opposed
to the application of these techniques insofar as he personally is
concerned. He stat w ed the fact that we '
are at war and th are usi:g Artichoke
techniques and eve morC tal.Me oss or obtaining their ends. He
stated that while he could not carry out such techniques as injecting
drugs into an individual, he, nevertheless, felt that he could quite
legitimately study the problem from a scientific point of view and
point of view of one who is attempting to understand how the
obtained the results they did in cases like then11111,
4. thereafter, discussed at considerable length cer-
tain vi6ws that he holds on the psychological conditioning of individu-
als and how individuals could be conditioned to achieve most any result
provided time enough were taken and the individuals were studied in a
clinical psychological manner. He suggested that, whereas psychologists
and psychiatrists work toward the restoring and building up of a per-
sonality, it is obvious that the reverse of this would be true -- that
a personality could be changed, intense mental confusion could be pro-
duced by deliberately attacking an individual along psychological lines.
5. (11111111111,stated that, whereas he had studied themillippv A.
case, i had never occurred to him that he would ever cons oer using
:
these techniques from an Agency point of view, but he felt that as far
as he was concerned, he would gladly assist by attempting to fi re
4 out from point of view how they conditioned men like
11
before their riiis.
-
_
6. 11111111111
and the writer talked at considerable length about
possibl USei-Of hypnotism in connection with the Artichoke work and,
in general, it may be said th felt that there was a posi-
tive use for hypnotism. He a a in ividuals under hypnotism ...
will give informationp, but he pointed out that it could not always -be
-regarded as accurate, since fantasy and even hallucinations are present
in certain hypnotic states. I
7. stated-thathe had observed some work done with
drugs an e, himself, had participated in attempting to extract inf or-
ation from..individuals by drugs and hypnosis. In this connection
and the writer did not attempt to immediately pump
or technical information or studies, since it was felt t -
'ditional interviews wit11111111111Fill be held in the immediate future.
8.11,1111111rthroughout t:he interview, was entirely co-operative,
- ig appearshly intelligent, and obviously was intensely interested al-
though he insisted that morally he could not carry out any of the Blue-
:bird ideas although he recognized the necessity for such activity.
9. The writer very carefully pointed out t that the
riason for this interview was not to obtain information front
but rather to present a series of problems to h1m and let him think o
-theMand consider them in his mind, was also specifically
asked to consider any projects that n tnougtmight be valuable or.in-
dividuals who could be contacted and who would have information of inter-
est tO us. V�
�
10 tated that the problem was of considerable interest
and tha Ee regretted that he was unable to put full and immediate at-
' tention to it, but promised that he would he matters discussed
very serious thought and would cal or the writer when he
had culled the various matters disc ssed ovii-in his mind and applied
what knowledge he had in these connections.
� U. ..nd the writer feel tha forts will
be profitable and both are of the impression nderstands
the need for secrecy in this type of work.
matter of record, it should be noted that in order to ask
to come over to this office
xplained that the
reason for the interview was in connection w)ith th& fact tha
knew j� his work a
-
Pr* .