(DELETED) INTERVIEW WITH. (A PROFESSIONAL HYPNOTIST WITH 15 YEARS EXPERIENCE)

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00140394
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: September 25, 2024
• Document Release Date: January 16, 1990
• Publication Date: February 25, 1952

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25 February 1952
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Interview With.
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� 1. On Thursda 21 Februa 1 2 the writer had an extended
interview with
The conversation lasted om :0 M o approximately
. The interview was laid on through the Contact Branch and
, �
A- ...introductions, were made through of the New York City.Con-'
'
� tact Office. No. difficultics,w encountered in this matter......
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11.7?,7f!".ty
s about six feet tall, wears horn-rim glasses,
has a strong, agressive look, and, physically, is quite impressive.
He appears highly intelligent, was courteous, amiable, and co-opara-
u hout. Before getting to cases, the writer fenced with
g: or approximately three-quarters of an hour, talking
gener y about hypnosis and not disclosing positive security interests.
After establishing in the writer's mind that as competent,
and thoroughly understood the meaning of secrecy, e writer opened
up and discussed positive matters.: Set out below are a series of ,.r...
�questions and answers w cover, in substance) the details of the
�
.* interview with
. ,
C:7 2. is a professional hypnotist of exceptionally
good repll'tation. He apparently has other means and has been a pro-
fessional engineer and accountant s apartment is in a deluxe
C' apartment ne od in and is in exceptionally good
C.:taste:- reel'. es ere with.his sister.- -- '
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Qi What are your experiences in general with hypnotism? .
A: I have been a professional hypnotist for at least 15 years.
At present, I am employed on a ver confidential
da s a week workin in the
ntly
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rk con nuously wit all types of
patients at I am not teaching hypnotism now,
.but I have aug many individuals hypnotism in the past.
art 'do.' ou'think; did hypnotism play in the
and other show trials by the USSR n,their
A: � In my personal opinion, hypnosis possibly combined with
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duress, and possibly drugs, is how the "confessions' were
brought about. I have long been interested in these trials
and I believe it entirely possible to bring these things
about through these techniques. It would take a great deal
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of continuous application and study of the individual to
produce these results but the enemy has plenty of time and
is capable of using any methods.
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� Can you obtain information from an individual, willing or
...unwilling, by hypnotism?
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Az .Definitely, yes. 'Many of the medical cases I work on are
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. 'involved in obtaining peraonal,intimate information and . .
� 'through hypnotism, I have been quite successful in obtaining.
��this. If an individual refuses to co-operate with hypnosis,
� the doctors with whom I work use drugs, always sodium amytal.
�Q:. Do you think that.this system would be useful.in obtaining
. ...information from a recalcitrant, obstinate, and entirely
: unco-operative individual? '�,�; , '� :!-� � *�" !''' . � � � � � � � � � � �-.:
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PC' � 'A0'.'Tes, definitely, That is the'only.way to approach thie'-'-;
type of individual, but even at that you would have to
study your individual psychologically and the matter would
.' require great skill. All people have to be approached in
different manners as far as hypnotism goes, but if you
could gain their confidence or at least indicate so, they
. -.would clearly understand you were not hostile.to them and
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.your battle would .be more :than half won,
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far do you.think,individuals could be controlled by:.
. .
: This is a very difficult subject, Post -hypnotics will
� last twenty years and will be very strong if re-enforced
.from time to time. However, if direct control is wanted,
� and particularly without re-enforcement, perhaps twelve
hours would be the most you could expect and even then a
. possibility exists that the person under hypnosis might
suddenly be awakened by some external stimulus.
Have you ever had any experience with drugs?
"
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A: Tee, many times. I have worked with doctors using sodium
"s:..'amytal and pentpthal.and'have.obtained hypnotic control
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after the drugs were used. In fact, many times the drugs
were used for the purpose of obtaining hypnotic control.
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:.' Were any other drugs used? Do you know any "new" drugs or loowe-
are there.any "wonder" drugs that can be used in this busi-
ness? �
A: No. I have known doctors to try other drugs but they do
not have any success and almost without exception in my �
'work, sodium amytal and pentothal are the weapons used.
If I had to tackle a case, tough and unwilling, I would .
rely on. sodium amytal. I do not knoivof any "wonder" �
drugs. .1 do not believe they exist�and none of the psy-
chiatrists and doctors I work with use anything but those
I have mentioned.
� : Have you ever heard of hypnosis being used in connection
with electroshock?. -
.A: .No. I am familiar with the electroshock convulsion and P"'
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. coma but I have never attempted to-obtain hypnotic con-
�:;trol-thereafter and have never heard of anyone doing this. 7--
� However, some of my friends who are psychiatrists con- .
stantly use electroshock and I have complete access to
their work. I shall make some experiments along these
lines in the near future and when -I see you again, we
will discuss the results of this.
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Q: Are there any individuals you might know who would be
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�worthwhile in contacting along these lines?' '
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! As .Offhand I cannot think of an one except
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s perhaps one o e outstandin
e country, thoroughly understands drugs s well ac-
quainted with my work. As far as hypnotists are concerned,
I do not believe there are five competent professional
hypnotists in the today and I have nothing but con-
tempt for the college professor who talks about hypnosis.
�Only the professional who can handle hypnosis in front of
the public and on a large scale is capable of really giving
first-rate advice or information on hypnotic work.
.be willing to act as a consultant to this Agencyl
as fully informed that the writer was' making no
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offers and in no position to recruit personnel. This offer
was being made in -general terms.)
I feel that we are at war and if I can be Of any help
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whatsoever, I shall be glad to give my time. If you need
me on any given case, I will be glad to cone.
'ci: Would you accept pupils for private coaching?
(Same explanation as above.) .
Yes. I think I could train an individual or at least give .
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him a substantial backgrpund,intwo'weeksp.workinu out with
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-him three times a week.' ': � '. '' '
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Q: Do you have any ideas that hypnotism could be. used as a
weapon?
,A: Yes, I have thought about this Often. It could certainly .
. be used in obtaining information from recalcitrant people
particularly with drugs: Furthermore, it can be used as
a morale factor and in addition, it could be used as a re-
cruiting source forspecial'types of work: I will explain
�
the last two. You have large D.P. camps in Europe and Asia. '
You have to entertain these people. A good professional- -
-hypnotist is a good entertainer. Using mass hypnotic methods,
he could drive home thoughts that would be of great benefit
to our side. Individuals that he gained control of through �
hypnotic influence could be .converted to strong supporters
*of our viewpoint through suggestion. 'The opposite of
, of course, would hold true.' Furtheremore, along these lineal._ .-
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� ' . a good hypnotist running hypnotic shows for entertainment
.1, would pick up a great many subjects,. come of whom might be.
exceptionally good subjects for us. These subjects could
� 'easily be tabbed and put to our use.
,
Q: Have you ever been able to produce hypnosis without an in-
dividual's knowledge?
At Yes, through the relaxing technique and on rare occasions
. been able to produce hypnotism against a pnrson's will. .
However, you cannot count on this and to attempt to attack
an individual who did not want to be hypnotized alone would
be almost an impossible task: In that type of case, I would
� ..:use sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal..
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Q: Do you have any special techniques that you think are
valuable?
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techniques are valuable. I use about eighteen dif-
ferent approaches to individuals ranging from fear to
anxiety, to deception, etc., etc. All individuals are
different and a hypnotist always studies his subjects
carefully, psychologically and otherwise, before attempting
. hypnosis with them. Only skilled professional hypnotists
have proper training and work at it often enough to be
skilled hypnotists. I would be glad to show you all my
techniques when we have time to discuss them.
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There is a peculiar and somewhat dangerous technique in-
volving pressure on the carotid artery. The technique
of using pressure on this artery is largely a matter of
timing. Pressure in the right place cuts off the flow
� of blood to the brain, apparently causing a rapid coma-
like condition -- during this condition, hypnotic control
: can sometimes be obtained. The technique is not easy to
.learn. I have tried it onlysa few times but it has been-
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Q: How effective are post-hypnotics;-over what distances and
. time can they be effective?
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As Properly used post-hypnotics will last twenty years* They
can be made more effective by re-enforcement from time to
�time. Post-hypnotics are not affected at all by time or
.sg.;,.-travel or distance away from the person who placed the post-
hypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be 100% effective.,
. .in good subjects and they would certainly be more effective
than a person operating under direct hypnotic controll.since_
a person in a hypnotic trance can suddenly be brought out of
.it for various reasons,particularly after many.hours,while
a post-hypnotic will always remain strong.
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Q: Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that
they would not do otherwise?
A: This is a muchly debated subject and, in my opinion, As a.
general rule, no individual will do anything against his moral
code or upbringing under a hypnotic trance they would not do
. otherwise. However, it should be remembered that by the pro-
per type of conditioning and a very intelligent and understanding _
- approach using psychology, individuals could be taught to do �
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anything including murder, suicide; etc*Thie would be diffi-::''0
cult, but I believe it could be done by a careful process of
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conditioning a personpnychologically while under a hypnotic
state, setting a stage for the act as it were. I do not have
.much faith in test experiments in colleges because they are,
,';by their very nature, experiments or tests. 'I do believe
that you could carry out acts that would be against an in-
dividual's moral feelings if they were rightly, psychologi-
cally conditioned. Of course, it would not be as much of a
problem to have an immoral person commit an immoral act or
a murderer commit a minder, since by their nature they would
have no hesitancy to do such a thing in their normal life.
do not know of any drugs that would do this under any cir-
cumstances, but I do feelthat'thelliplitand other familiar
cases in which individuals confesse .cr es which they
could not have possibly Committed was brought about by hyp-
nosis, as I mentioned before, and lengthy psychological con-
ditioning. The question itself, of course, is one that has .
been debated a great many times but is difficult to actually
arrange a "practical" test.
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Do you have any special techniques or ideas for detecting if-:v.f-:**
an individual is under hypnosis or not? �
A:, Yes, I have several methods for detecting this and if I see
you again, I will go over them in detail with you. There
are certain tests that I make which I think are very effective.
Along this same line, I also use several methods for detecting
when individuals are faking or play acting with me or feigning
hypnosis� , ; ..;
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Q: Do you have any-system for' detecting good hypnotic subjects
particularly not along the lines:of stage entertainments?' �
'A: No particular system, but there are certain techniques that
I apply in looking for good subjects. Most of these are �
� tasically standard tests and are, undoubtedly, known to you.
� (Reference was made to standard tests.for suggestibility,
all known to the writer.) In this connection, when I see
you again, I will show you some of the methods I use along
these lines.
Q: Can hypnosis be broken by another hypnotist if specific
instructions have been given to a subject to prevent this?
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, A: .1 have been able to do this, but this is not easy and re-
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4,4quirea a great deal'of :time ,and,effort, but :I believe ;477
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that almost any hypnotic control can be detected and
broken if sufficient time and a careful psychological
,approach are used..
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Q: Does alcohol assist in the obtaining of hypnosis in a
subject?
A: I do not believe it helps. There are many other more
important aids to hypnosis than a social drink or two.
The first of these I believe would be anxiety, another
,would be fear,A.hird might be exhaustion. However, in
Hmany- casess'aleohol does make individuals more pliable'
and in that sense might have some results. "
Q: Do you have any material that you think might be of in-
terest to me along these lines?
.A: Yes. As you know, an individual who has been hypnotized
makes- a very excellent courier. They can be given messages
under hypnosis which'they:themselves do not know and
. only an individual knowing the code can get this message
� -' from this' courier. Dien assuming that the post-hypnotic
control could be broken or the individual hypnotized, it
could still be protected perhaps as follows:
A person could be regressed to a certain time
and date and then given the message and unless
. the person who subsequently gained control of
the subject regressed the subject to the cor-
,.,rect date and time set out, he could not get
the message. Even more .secure would be to move
the individual forward..: If he were moved from
thirty years of age to thirty-five years of
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age at a given date and time and then given
the message, unless the individual could guess
the age, the time; and date in the future, he
could not obtain the message,
In my opinion, the use of this hypnotic technique is valu-
able from your point of view; Certain it is that by hypnotic
control over an individual you can extract information pro-
bably better than any other known way. Furthermore, in good
subjects you can create complete amnesias which should be
helpful: In addition, as I mentioned above, I think this
technique could be.used on a mass scale as I explained both .
as a morale factor or for propaganda purposes. Some people
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the Army I.know'areigivinglhought to these itemso'but
. whether it can ever be sold at the top-level, I cannot say.
-I think it would be very valuable..'
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I will try when I return from m7 trip to contact a number
of individuals, psychiatrists, and doctors that I know
' And without discussing any reasons, obtain from them any
J.,,.%.9.information that they may have an new drugs or techniques.:
I do not believe that there are any new drugs and I do '
not believe there is anything such as the ftwondern.drugs
which willsproduce instant talking when given to an indi-
vidual. eve our h no caoacities are as good
as th and I also believe
that t e gs or any other drugs we
do not know about. The only thing they hovels plenty
of time and they care nothing for normal conventions.:
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For matter of record, rofessed great in-
terest in this type or .work stati.ng that in his opinion,
it had long been neglected by our Government. He :stated
he would contribute time and effort if he were called
upon to do so and volunteered to assist in any case if -
he were called upon for assistance.
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