THE UNITED STATES SENATE; REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS TESTIMONY - HEARING HELD BEFORE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIENCE ACTIVITIES - TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00095171
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 195
• Document Creation Date: July 13, 2023
• Document Release Date: March 8, 2022
• Case Number: F-2017-01793
• Publication Date: October 18, 1975

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Report of Pro-ccedinge
Hearing held before
Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities
Saturday, October 18, 1975
Wz.shington, D. C
(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
tz, the Committee for destruction).
WA1Z I) & PAUL
410 IIT ST R EET, s.
WASHINGTON. 1). C. 20003
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CONTENTS
ri�STIMONY OF
Sidney Gottlieb
--accompanied by--
Terry F. Lenzner,
Counsel
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STAFF INTERVIEW
Saturday, October 18, 1975
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United States Senate,
Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations with Respect to
Intelligence Activitlics,-
Washington, D. C.
The Staff net, pursuant to notice, at 10:2Q a.r in
Room G08, Capitol Hill Hotel.
Present: Elliot Maxwell and Frederick Baron, Profcssiona)
StafE Members.
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TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB; ACCOMPANIED
2 BY TERRY F. LENZNER, COUNSEL -- resumed
Mr. Baron. On the record.
Dr. Gottlieb, we are resuming now a session that we left
i off in the middle yesterday concerning executive action.
And before we pick up with the substance of this session, I
would like to go through the same formalities with you.
u- a_e-aware that you have a-rraht�to counsel.
9 !: Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
, Mr. Lenzner. Yesterday we stipulated to each and every
right, advice of counsel, warning and alert regarding Senators
being present that we have had on the record the last five
times we have been here. And it seems adequate for Elliot.
We stipulate and agree to the same directions and advice that
we have received on each occasion.
Mr. Baron. Then you arc satisfied that you have re-
ceived a satisfactory advisory as to rights, and you arc
willing to testify without a Senator present?
Mr. Lenzner. Yes.
Mr. Daron.To pick up, then, where we left off yesterday.
4111111111111111about Executive Action as best we could based
on your recollection and any refreshing of your recollection
that we can achieve by reviewing these notes and relaying
testimony to you. We were at the point where I was asking
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Mr. Baron. Yes. 4011110 testified that he had a,clear
. recollection of being called in by .45.0a,rd Bissell invbarry
1961 to discuss the launching of a Pr1i-ject-toidevelo
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assassination capabilities at the CI
-in that conversation to take charge o e. the developme44,-.
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'Bissellcalledan Executive Actiom:rrorc,t.:,_
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you whether the fact that's has testified that the phrase
"25/1"
On
his notes indicates to him that this consideration
took place on the 25th of January of a certain year.
Is that any help to you in placing the conversation in
5 time?
6 Dr. Gottlieb. Not really. Assuming that is true,
7 and I guess it is, it could have been January or any number
9
r_as I am concerned.
Mr. Baron. And the final bit of information I wanted
to give you to see if we could refresh your recollection on this
subject is the fact that wheneallilialM examined these
notes the final time he said that he was "almost certain"
that the conversation took place on January 25, 1961.
Does that in any way help you place the conversation in
time?
Dr. Gottlieb. No.
Mr. Lenzner. Did he express any factors that helped .
him decide that it was that year rather than a prior'o
subsequent year that might help Sid?
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was later established under the cryptonum ZRRIFLE.
agnift said that it was most likely, based on his recol
lection of his activities on Staff D and his shift over to th
Cuba task force, that the conversation would have taken place
in early 1961.
Dr. Gottlieb. I just thought of one other thing. The
? is mention in these notes of the U-2. It is of little help t
I feel �Alont s thprr._ T was trying tn rPcplirct_Wh_em
9 I first became aware of the U-2 project. And clearly this
1.3634.4
would have to be after that, if he and I talked about somethi
about the U-2. But my goodness, that just puts it in any -
n..Imber of years after a date that I can't remember.
Mr. Lenzner. I suppose one of the problems, too, is tha
Dr. Gottlieb has already testified that he had a conversation
with Bissell about something close to this subject, if not
directly on it early 1960. So it would not have come --
it not be a singular or aberrational conversation for
Dr. Gottlieb to have had this withal's, he obviously had
at least one, if not more, conversations of a similar nature
prior to this.
Mr. Baron. Let me give you One:more'bi.t:O.U:baCkground
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and sec if this brings anything backif I remind you of th,1
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fact that there was a change of administration on Jarivary 21,
1961, when John Kennedy took office, -:would that help you reca
whether your conversation with.41111011Vtook.plicc before or a
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2 the change of administration?
Dr. Gottlieb. That brings up only one association in my
mind, and that has nothing to do with this. And that was the
snowy night of his inauguration. But I can't hang this on that
5 ' ladder at all. I just don't associate this meeting with that
event.
7 Mr. Baron. . So it doesn't help you either way placed onl
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either side
if the inauguration?
Dr. Gottlieb. No.
Mr. Baron. Let's turn to these cryptic phrases on the
of461111.0 and see if you can in for the record
notes fill
the meaning of any of these phrases or the discussion that
surrounded these notations.
At the top oft"... notes it says, 'Exec Actions".
Do you have a clear recollection of using the phrase
l'304(01Executive Action" when you discussed assassination capability
. withal]."
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Dr. Gottlieb. No, I do not.
Mr. Baron. Did inform inform you that he was estab-
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lishing a project to develop
assassination capabilities?
Dr. Gottlieb. I really don't remember that. In those
terms I remember the conversation being a sort of a wondering
one. It was clear to me that he wanted to know what I under-
stood the capability.of the clandestine service in this general
area to 1>e.
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But my recollection is that he wondered all over the lot,
asking what I was doing, and talking about things having
nothing .to do with assassination.
Mr. Baron. Once more for the record I would like to
5 ask you, what recollection do you have of anything that you
6 41111001frsaid dealing with assassinations or assassination
7 capabilities?
and
Dr. Gottlieb. I don't have any specific recollection,
9 I really don't. I can only make an assumption that I went
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over the materials at Camp Detrick, because that was the only
capability we had that was relevant.
Mr. Baron. So you assume that you would have explained.
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to 4111111.11110, the nature of the lethal, or potentially lethal,
14 ! or incapacitating materials that the CIA processed or had:.
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i access to?
Dr. Gottlieb. But even that is.an assumption.
Mr. Baron. amp said that although he didn't have
completely firm recollection on this point, he thought that
a
this conversation was held at your request upon your taking
a new job. And I will read you his testimony on this subject
o3
to see if this at all refreshes your recollection as tow
took the initiative for the conversation or when it too
page 53 in one of his early transcr1p15:
recall this converSation, this was a -*sort
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of an exchange of ideas in briefing session probably held at
the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after he
either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual
Chief of TSD,which was the Technical Services Division of
he received instructions from Bissell to create an Executive
Action capability, and that Bissell told
leimmthat Dr. Gottlieb had already been
discussions, and that he should talk with Dr.
Mr. Baron. I think that that is an accurate rendition of
But despite that act, he maintains that this particular
was occasioned by a switch of jobs.
become Chief of TSD until at
Mr. Baron.
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Dr. Gottlieb. I moved back from TSD from Bissell's
:ffice. I would have said it would have been after this date
Mr. Baron. When you say this date --
Dr. Gottlieb. best .I can say to that question that
might be helpful, if you look at the notes, which we haven't
;one through, a good many of them refer to work I was doing
t the time in my job as scientific advisor to Bissell.
things mentioned here were not TSD projects.
Mr. Baron. So this review of the notes then does
help you bracket the time frame of this meeting with greater
specificity than you were able to do yesterday, in that you
know that this conversation must have occurred before you left.
your position as science advisor to Richard Bissell?
thing is chat I was probably in that job.
by thCse notes asking mc what my job was.
Because I-sec him
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Mr. Baron. Once again, during what period of time were
2 you science advisor to Bissell?
Dr. Gottlieb. To the best of my memory, I would say
that would be in the period of late 1959 or early 1960 to
about the middle of 1961.
Mr. Baron. So would it be your assumption now that your
7 conversation with Harvey that is memorialized in these notes
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9
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nod of time?
Dr. Gottlieb. That would be an assumption.
Mr. Baron. Returning to the notes, then, what does the
11 phrase "magic button" refer to?
Dr. Gottlieb. I know of no project capability or
technique that we referred to by that name. And it doesn't
14 mean anything to me.
Mr. Baron. We have discussed the narcotics bureau.
!
1 � Do you know what "for a living" would refer to?
1.3(a)(41.
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Dr. Gottlieb. I am sorry.
Mr. Baron. The next note says "RIS 201 cover".
AndllOplphas testified that that referred to the Russian
Intelligence Service.
,
Do you have any recollection ,of,a discussion of the
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Russian Intelligende Service in the context of assassination
planning?
Dr. Gottlieb. No. But I don't know whether you have an
'testimony on-the 201 at all. But that means to me a 201 fil(
TOP
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Do you recall any such conversations?
Dr. Gottlieb.
Mr. Baron. I don't believe that he did.
I would say here he might be talking
I believe, to the bankruptcy of operational planning or pur-
suit that would lead to trying an assassination. And it
dicated to him that he was not in favor of assassination
planning at that point.
Do you recall any discussion like that with hir?
Dr Cottlieb No
Mr -Baron He has characterized his 'discussion wl
you as "a general philosophic discussion of assassination
and ai-sassination techniques" And he didn't mention the
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