SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN ACTIVITIES TESTIMONY OF BARBARA PINDAR ON 21 FEBRUARY 1974

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 01474405
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 6
• Document Creation Date: December 28, 2022
• Document Release Date: August 7, 2017
• Case Number: F-2007-00094
• Publication Date: February 21, 1974

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MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
OLC 74-0278
21 February 1974
SUBJECT: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities
Testimony of Barbara Pindar on 21 February 1974
1. The executive session hearing (investigation) was held in Room
G334 and went from about 1400 to 1800 hours. As in the previous hearings,
there was a technical sweep but the testimony was not monitored. Senator
Edward Gurney (R., Fla.) administered the oath in his office. Staff in
attendance were: Minority Counsel Fred Thompson, Howard Liebengood,
and Michael Madigan. A transcript was taken and will be kept in the Office
of Legislative Counsel.
2. Fred Thompson initiated the questioning and continued for about
2 hours, 20 minutes, during which the following points were developed:
a. Layout of Executive Suite
A great deal of time was spent in fixing on the physical
location of the various offices in the executive suite.
b. Phone Transcripts
Miss Pindar clarified that those which were her tran-
scripts, referred to in Mr. Karl Wagner's affidavit of
5 February 1974, were based upon stenographic notes and
not recordings and the notes had been destroyed in December
1971 as part of the routine clean up of the office in view of
General Cushman's reassignment as Commandant of the
Marine Corps. (Mr. Wagner's affidavit refers to the dis-
covery of "stenographer's notes" and "stenographic notes"
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and led Thompson to conclude in his 20 February memorandum
(paragraph 4) to Senator Baker that they existed and should be
transcribed by the Committee before Miss Pindar's testimony
on the 21st.)
c. Monitoring Phone Calls
In response to questions Miss Pindar explained that her
predecessor in Cushman's office said it was not her practice
to monitor Cushman's phone calls. The counsels attempted to
turn the fact of monitoring phone calls by Miss Pindar as spying
on Cushman, but Miss Pindar straightened them out, explaining
this as her normal practice in assisting her boss and that there
was nothing surrepitious about it at all. (Although counsels did
not pursue it, if it was not the practice of Miss Pindar's prede-
cessor to monitor Cushman's conversations, what explains the
transcripts we have on phone conversations prior to her tenure?
Recordings?)
d. Tape Destruction
Jim Woolsey, General Counsel, Senate Armed Services
Committee, may have been informed about the destruction of
tapes as early as June 1973.
e. Tape for Cushman
Thompson pushed hard to determine whether Miss Pindar
knew whether General Cushman had been provided a copy of the
tape of the 22 July 1971 Cushman/Hunt conversation and she did
not know. When Thompson resumed questioning later on, he
queried as to why she did not inform Cushman of the June 1972
retyped transcript when in January 1973 she took his dictation for
a letter to Mr. Ehrlichman concerning the identity of the White
House individual who called to request Agency support for Hunt.
Miss Pindar could not recall why she did not refresh General
Cushman's memory and indicated, among other things, that she
would not presume to interject herself. In response to a question,
she said Mr. Colby was in the room while at least one of the
letters was being dictated, but she did not recall any specific
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contribution by Mr. Colby. Finally, she indicated a vague
recollection that perhaps General Cushman had seen a trans-
cript of the conversation. (Thompson bore in quite unmercifully
on this area and as at that time we had been in almost continuous
session for about four hours, I passed him a note that I thought
we ought to offer Miss Pindar a break. Previously Thompson had
frowned upon what he took to be as my assisting Miss Pindar�in
fairness to Thompson neither nor I were present as
personal counsel and under the Committee charter as Federal
employees we are precluded from being so--and I did not want to
voice anything that could be interpreted as our wanting to break
the questioning because he was on to something. Thompson said
there would only be a few more questions, but when time began
to drag on I told him that we should break if the session was going
to be prolonged. Liebengood, in an aside, asked me if I knew what
Miss Pindar could be referring to and I told him that I did and he,
in resuming the questioning, did not follow through on this point.
After the hearing I refreshed his memory on Mr. Colby's role in
refreshing General Cushmas recollection at Mr. Ehrlichman's
request.)
f. Karl Wagner
The Committee probably will want to meet with Karl Wagner
because of his key role concerning the transcripts, etc. Miss
Pindar explained that upon General Cushman's departure she,
together with Wagner, had reviewed the Cushman material (aside
from personal. papers he was to take with him) for determining
which of it was of sufficient importance for retention in Agency
records. In response to a question why the ten transcripts were
retained, Miss Pindar said that she wasn't sure and I referred to
Mr. Wagner's decision as reflected in his affidavit concerning
retention of papers relating to conversations with members of the
White House staff. Miss Pindar made it clear that the final
decision was Mr. Wagner's.
Follow up item: Miss Pindar's June 1972 note to Mr. Wagner
that her file box contained a card dated 22 July 1971 on the Cushman/
Hunt meeting which indicated that a transcript had been made.
3. At 1620 hours, Mr. Liebengood began his initial series of
questioning and the following developed:
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SECRET/S.11 a 1.
a. Calendars
As a matter of standard procedure within the Agency,
and at least for Miss Pindar, the appointment calendars of her
principals are retained as permanent Agency records.
b. Spying on Cushman
Miss Pindar used a question by Liebengood to correct
his misunderstanding by explaining telephone monitoring as
just a simple normal secretarial practice.
c. Transcription of Room Conversations
Miss Pindar had earlier explained the circumstances of
her transcribing the 22 July 1971 room conversation and the
difficulty it entailed and was asked why she did not request assistance
from the technician's transcriber. Miss Pindar felt it just was her
job to do. (Thompson asked if she remembered conversation about
the President, which she did not. Miss Pindar referred to airplane
noise at the time of her transcribing, she was referring to the
noise on the tape, but counsel may have interpreted this as being
airplane noise at the time she was typing the transcript. To a
mind in search of a problem, this could suggest such things as
a re-recording of the original tape.)
4. At 1650 hours Michael Madigan initiated his questioning and
the following developed:
a. He focused on the removal of the recording system in
General Walter's office, asking Miss Pindar if she knew why
this was done. She said no. He pressed her hard. She said
she assumed it had been done at Director Helms' instruction.
b. It was established that the minutes of the executive
morning meeting were taken by Mr. Ben Evans, they were not
recorded, and did not involve verbatim text.
c. Photographs
A consistent preoccupation in the questioning of witnesses
has been the "photographs, " referring to the prints we developed
for Hunt. Miss Pindar believed that she saw Xeroxes of the
photographs in connection with the Agency's preparation of
material for the FBI.
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�,,
-- �
d. Interest in Whether Miss Pindar Knew
e. Colby Files
(1) Miss Pindar explained that it was two files set up
as material began to be accumulated following the June 1972
breakin; one for responses to outside requests from the FBI
and the other for backup papers.
(2) The file was in Mr. Helms' hands up until October 19 72
and turned over to the IG in May 1973.
(3) She was questioned on the meaning of the term "bigot"
and explained it was really a list of people who had access
to certain information. ( This interest probably relates to
the fact that Greenwood refers to Hunt as bigot and Madigan
apparently was trying to find out if this could have been a
project cryptonym. )
5. Joined Issue
Mr. Thompson started to question Miss Pindar about the ten
transcripts referred to in Karl Wagner's affidavit. I asked to go off the
record and explained to Thompson that I had just given him a paper on
the only two transcripts relevant to "Watergate" and requested that he re-
phrase his questioning to get at the particulars and not develop information
unrelated to the inquiry. This Thompson refused to do and insisted that we
go on the record. I restated our position that if he pursued this line of
questioning, as he had admitted, he would eventually get to the contents of
conversations which had nothing to do with Watergate and may involve
sensitive information. I said We had no objection if Miss Pindar was asked
if any of the material related to a specific individual. Thompson said that
the calls between the White House and the Agency are at the very heart of the
matter under investigation and they needed to pursue this information in
the manner he was following because he could not rely upon Agency witnesses
to know what was relevant to Watergate. I said that I thought as in the past
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we could work out some kind of arrangement to satisfy their legitimate
needs but we had no authority to continue on the present course and
would note his interest. Subsequently we all enjoyed Miss Pindar's
observation that she couldn't recall any of the specifics.
]Deputy Legislative Counsel
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