PREPAREDNESS INVESTIGATING SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES AND COMMITTEE ON AERONAUTICAL AND SPACE SCIENCES VOL. 4

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP91-00965R000601250001-9
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 57
• Document Creation Date: December 23, 2016
• Document Release Date: October 17, 2013
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: February 3, 1960
• Content Type: REPORT

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Vol. 14
Ettitrb :4,tateri t Inter
Report of Proceedings
Hearing held before
Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee of the
Committee on Armed Services and
Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences
STATEMENT BY VICE ADMIRAL H. G. RICKOVER?
ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, REACTOR DEVELOPMENT
(NAVAL REACTORS) ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION
AND ASSISTANT CHIEF OF BUREAU OF SHIPS
FOR NUCLEAR PROPULSION, NAVY DEPARTMENT
Wednesday, February 3, 1960
WA
Washington, D. C.
D PAUL
1760 PENNSYLVANIA AVE.. N. W.
WASHINGTON. D. C.
NATIONAL )8-4268
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8-4266
)8-4267
Statement
Executive
RELEASED
given in
Session
8 Feb. 1960
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CONTENTS
TESTIMONY OF:
Vice Admiral H. G. Rickover,
Assistant Director, Reactor
Development (Naval Reactors),
Atomic Energy Commission and
Assistant Chief of Bureau of
Ships for Nuclear Propulsion,
Navy Department
A
PAGE
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STATEMENT BY VICE ADMIRAL H. G. RICKaVER,
ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, REACTOR DEVELOPMENT
(NAVAL REACTORS) ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION
AND ASSISTANT CH/EP OF BUREAU OF SHIPS
FOR NUCLEAR PROPULSION, NAVY DEPARTMENT
ser sza
Wednesday, February 3, 1960
United States Senate,
Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee of
the Committee on Armed Services, and the
Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences,
Washington, D. C.
The Committee and Subcommittee met, pursuant to recess,
at 4:30 p.m., in Room 235, Old Senate Office Building, Senator
John C. Stennis presiding.
Present: Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee:
Senator Stennis (presiding).
Present: Committee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences:
Senator Stennis (presiding), Young, Cannon,
Wiley, and Case (New Jersey).
Also present: Senators Jackson and Bush.
Edwin L. Weisl, Special Counsel; Cyrus R. Vance, Associate
Counsel; Kenneth E. BeLieu, Staff Director of Space Committee
and Preparedness Subcommittee.
Staff MeMbers, Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee:
Stuart French, Associate Counsel; and Robert M. Neal,
Attorney.
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Staff Members, Committee on Aeronautical and Space
Sciences:
Max Lehrer, Assistant Staff Director; Everard H. Smith,
Jr., Counsel; William J. Deachman, Assistant Counsel; Dr. Glen
P. Wilson, Chief Clerk; and Dr. Earl W. Lindvelt, Assistant
Chief Clerk.
Dr. Edward C. Welsh, Assistant to Senator Symington.
tai? OM MO
Senator Stennis. Admiral Rickover, we are very glad to
have you here, sir. It is always a privilege to obtain the
benefit of your views.
In keeping with the custom of the Committee, please
stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that your testimony here before
this Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Admiral Rickover. I do, sir.
Senator Stennis. Have a seat, sir. We are very glad
to have you here, sir.
I don't know whether you had in mind making a prepared
statement before counsel proceeds. If you do not have a
prepared statement, counsel will proceed with his questioning
for forty-five minutes, after which each Senator will have
ten minutes.
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dm 3 TESTIMONY OF VICE ADMIRAL G. RICKOVER,
ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, REACTOR DEVELOPMENT
(NAVAL REACTORS), ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION;
ACCOMPANIED BY ROBERT PANOFF AND TBEODORE
ROCKWELL
Admiral Rickover. I have no statement, Senater Stennis.
Mr. Weisl. Admiral Rickover, will you briefly tell the
Committee just what you are doing at the present time?
Admiral Rickover. I am in charge of the Naval Nuclear
Propulsion Program for the Navy Department and the Atomic
Energy Commission. This is a joint effort of the two
agencies.
I am also in charge for the Atomic Energy Commission
of the Shippingport, Pennsylvania Atomic Power Plant, the
first large scale Central Station Atomic Plant.
Mr. Weis/. You spent some time recently in Russia,
did you not?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir. I was there with the Vice
President.
Mr. Weisl. And on that occasion you had an opportunity
to talk with some of the leading figures of the Soviet Union
and inspect some of their places?
Admiral Rickover. I did.
Mr. weisl. Who were some of the leading figures of the
Soviet Union that you had occasion to talk to?
Admiral Rickover. Mr. Khrushchev, Mr. Mikoyan, Mr.
Koslov, and other members of the Presidium; also with top
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dm4 people in industry, in science, and in education, the same
people Vice President Nixon talked with.
I also talked at length alone with Mr. Koslov when he was
in this country.
Mr. Weisl. You also had an opportunity to inspect the
Soviet atomic icebreaker, did you not?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir, the Lenin.
Mr. Weisl. You also, I understand, have done considerable
reading and studying of the Soviet capabilities?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. Weisl. Would you please tell this Committee how,
in your opinion, the technological race between the United
States and the Soviet Union is going at the present time?
Admiral Rickover. I think unquestionably we are ahead
of the Russians right now. I also firmly believe that as far
as rate of technological progress is concerned, they are
ahead.
Senator Wiley. A little louder, please.
Admiral Rickover. I said, sir, I believe we are ahead
of them now technologically, but as far as rate of progress
is concerned, they are definitely ahead of us.
One of the most significant phenomena that has occurred
in the last 40 years or so is that a very backward country
could, in so short a time, attain such high technological
and educational levels.
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dm 5 If we say this is due entirely to their totalitarian
system, we concede that totalitarianism is a better system
than democracy. We cannot admit this, nor is it true.
That is., if We say their totalitarian methods are
responsible for getting the ahead faster than our democratic
methods do, then we are admitting that our system is not as
good as theirs. 2 am sure no one in this room believes that.
Therefore, we must look for other reasons for their
getting ahead so fast0 I believe their progress is not
peculiar to their particular form of government.
Mr. Weisl. Will you please elaborate on that, Admiral
Ridkover?
Admiral Rickover. In essence the contest is really
between two different systems of administration, between two
different bureaucracies. If we place the issue on that basis,
if we stop talking about a contest between democracy and
totalitarianism, we can get at the root of the problem and
find out why their rate of progress is greater than ours,
why they are getting ahead of us.
In Russia only the most determined and most competent
people can get the best jobs. If they don't do a good job,
if they botch a job, they are fired. And if they are fired,
they don't have a private company to go to for a job. The
Russians don't exercise too much favoritism, either.
One of Khrushchev's closest friends was recently removed
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dm6 from the PresidiuM because he hadn't done a good job. He
didn't even get -a letter from Khrushchev saying how much he
regretted his leaving. He was just told to go.
Now there is anothe:c. interesting fact that may surprise
most Americans, that today. therp_is a. greater proportion of
college graduates'in Russian industry than there is in our
industry. This is a very surprising fact. This certainly
was not true 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago but it is
true today.
In the year 1957 the Russian 10-year schools graduated
at age 17 about 1,600,000 students as compared with 1,458,000
who graduated from our high schools. But the Russian 17
year olds had to pass examinations which are roughly comparable
. . ?
to what students in this country couldpass_only_after two
_ .
years of college.
These examinations were not in ideological subjects.
They were in subjects such as algebra, geometry, chemistry,
physics, geography, foreign languages, history. There are
no ideological connotations to these examinations, except in
history.
Now, of these 1,600,000 students, about 30 per cent
were permitted to go on to university, so you can see what
a tough competition there is. At university all tuition is
free, and about 84 per cent are paid their living expenses.
The higher their marks, the more they are paid.
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dm 7 In order to be paid while attending university, the
students must obtain the equivalent of the Dean's list in the
United States.
(:) This gives you a pretty good comparison of how tough
their educational system is and why they are advancing so
rapidly. You listen to people tell you that we are now able
to anticipate a missile by 15 minutes, and I suppose you
would be willing to appropriate several billion dollars if
we could significantly extend that time. Yet our country has
been warned for more than six years about what is going on in
Russia, particularly in education, and has not acted on this
information.
For example, this year the Russians are graduating
two and a half times as many engineers as we. We have been
warned about this for six years, but we do little about it.
We will not remain ahead of the Russians in military matters,
in scientific and technical matters, in art, in music, in
literature, unless we heed that warning. Today education
is indispensable for survival and progress.
M. Weis/. Do you believe that the Russians are bent
and dedicated to world domination?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir. It is hard for us to
believe anything like that, just as it was hard for us to
believe when we read "Mein Kampf" that Hitler meant what he
said. The Soviet leaders have consistently stated what their
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dm8 program is. They have never, deviated from that program.
Their program is world domination, and no Russian Communist
leader has ever deviated from that principle. Our main
4:) enemy is wishful thinking. Only those who learn nothing and
forget everything refuse to look at the record.
Senator Wiley. What do you mean by "they"?
Mr. Weisl. The Russians.
Senator Wiley. Does he mean the ruling class, 6 million,
or the 200 million?
Admiral Rickover. The Russian Government, sir. The
great mistake we make is to believe we are in competition with
the Russian people. We are not in competition with the
Russian people. We, the American people, are in competition
with the Russian Government.
Russia is ruled, as you know, by about 4 per cent of
their people, the members of the Communist Party. Now how
do they choose members of the Communist Party?
When the young people graduate from university, they
must go to work in a factory. In Russia no young college
graduate starts to work in a government agency as a management
expert. He must work several years in a factory. They are
C.) observed carefully, to see who does a good job, who are the
potential leaders. These are selected to become members of
the Communist Party.
Once he becomes a member of the Communist Party, he must
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work hard and he is watched all the time.
Take Xhrushchev? for example. He did not get his start
as a government bureaucrat. He had to do all kinds of
practical work, before he could get a position in the
bureaucracy. He finally got in, but only after many years of
experience, of proving his ability. This is the route for
preferment in Russia. It is through practical experience,
through demonstrated success. It is not by an inexperienced
man getting into a government agency and starting in to
administrate without really knowing and feeling what he is
administering; and this, gentlemen, is one of the reasons why
they are getting ahead of us in administration. This is one
problem we must face.
Mx. Weisl. We have been told repeatedly, Admiral, that
the Soviet Union has a gross national product Of only one-half
of ours. How is it that they are beating us in the missile
race and in the space race?
Admiral Rickover. They have the advantage of speed in
decision-making, the ability to concentrate on a few definite
national objectives to which they apply the necessary energy
and resources. They decide what is important technically
and industrially, what is important for the political and
military power of the State. These items they give national
priority. They place a man in charge of a project, they hold
him responsible and they let him alone.
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If he fails, they get rid of him. They don't hound
him day after day and literally prevent him from doing his
work, which is the way we treat the men in charge of our
large-scale governmental projects. This way of doing business
we can no longer afford.
Weisl. Let me be a little more specific, Admiral.
You are the man who was able, against heavy odds, to
bring about the nuclear submarine, which is about the only..
new military weapons system that we are ahead of the Russians.
You did this and, as I understand, the cost of accomplishing
this great feat was less than we have spent on the attempt
to get a nuclear airplane, and we are still years away from
developing a nuclear airplane.
Now please tell the Committee how you were able to do
this.
Admiral Rickover. I was not able to do the job all by
myself. I have a group of devoted and dedicated men and
women working with me, people who could get much higher pay
in industry than they get by working for the government.
Nor could I have done the job without the help of
Congress, particularly the Joint Congressional Committee on
Atomic Energy and Senator Anderson, the Chairman, and of
Senator Jackson, both of whom have always helped me. I would
like to pay tribute to Senator Anderson and his Committee.
I am indeed very grateful to Congress.
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The only chance of salvation I have in my program, and
others in their programs, rests with the Congress, because
no one else is sufficiently willing to help. Whether you
can do what is necessary, I do not know. I am aware of the
limitations of the Legislative Branch. I know you can exhort
and urge the Executive Branch, but you can only go so far.
But the crisis we are in today is great. This was borne
out by my observations in Russia.
If there ever was a time when factionalism -- political,
industrial or military -- should stop, this is the time. If
we don't stop factionalism right now, / am afraid for our
country.
I am frightened by what appears to be a tendency in
some quarters to prefer letting this country sink into second
place, if the alternative means uncongenial effort, goes
counter to deep-seated convictions as to the proper place
of government in a democracy, or requires financial sacrifices.
We cannot afford to be second in anything that affects
our security. We must lead, or we must have parity as a
minimum. If we don't have parity we will inevitably lose our
freedom. We must never forget that their objective is
conquest -- by peaceful means if possible, but conquest just
the same. Our objective is peace.
To conquer the world they do not have to excel in
everything. They need only excel us in one thing, for
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dm 12 example, missiles.
We must not delude ourselves they share our horror of
modern war. Their people fear it, but not their leaders.
They are not bound by any legal or moral principles to
desist from war. Look what they did to Poland; look what
they did to the Baltic States. They had non-aggression
treaties with them. Look what they did to them.
They do not fear atomic mar as much as we do, for the
simple reason that they are using their people. Our Govern-
ment serves our people. Their people serve their government.
We should bear in mind the statement China's Mao made
when the question of nuclear was was raised he said, "china
does not fear atomic war, if she won it was worth losing many
people. If she lost she would have a greatly diminished
population, thus solving her population problem." That is what
he said publicly.
We, of course, can't take an attitude like that. There-
fore, if we are to persevere in a situation of this kind,
we must face up to reality. We must realize we have an under-
educated population which does not understand history and
its lessons. It is one of the great faults of our educational
system that we are not adequately aware of historical
processes. We believe that democracy is self-executory. We
believe we can have democracy without taking the necessary
measures, and without the sacrifices to makelt work.
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Senator Bush. Isn't the question one more of discipline
than facilities, Admiral?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir.
Senator Bush. Expand that, will you? What should we do
to create this discipline? / have been reading your, speeches
for two or three years, and have been particularly interested
in those you have made since you have been back from Russia.
Now, talk about that.
Admiral Rickover. I can suggest certain things. Some
you may not find pleasant, so I am not going to tell you.
Senator Bush. I wish you would. How are we going to
meet the problem if we don't face up to it?
Admiral Rickover. I have said them many times. If I
get off the subject, please stop me.
Senator Stennis. All right, proceed.
Admiral Rickover. I consider education to be the most
important problem that faces us, because unless we solve our
educational problem, we will not be able to solve any of our
other national problems.
You will remeMber Aristotle said that the primary duty
of any legislature is to take care of the education and training
of its youth. We certainly are not doing that adequately.
We have permitted our children to be trained in life
adjustment, where the primary purpose is having a good time.
The reason that we can afford to let our children think
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mostly about having a good time is because our, country is
so rich. We don't realize that this wealth may be transitory.
Xt may not last. We are not using our children's teenhood
as a period of education and training for adulthood; many
of our children remain permanent adolescents, unaware of the
deep responsibilities of adulthood and of citizenship in a
democracy. For this I must blame the parents who by their
own lazy habits and non-intellectual life set a bad example
for their children.
Now that is not the case in Russia. Some day, should
they achieve the affluence we have, they may have the same
problem; but they certainly don't have it today, nor do I
believe their leaders are going to let their people get to
that point. They realize if their people start having it
too good, if they get too many ideas about freedom, their
system will break down. For this reason they cannot tolerate
freedom anywhere in the world. There must be no freedom
anywhere, because as long as freedom exists, no matter where,
and with rapid means of communications with other countries,
there is the ever-present danger their own people will rebel.
So they carry friendship with us up to a certain point,
and they will throttle it should it appear that their people
are getting out of hand.
It is quite significant that a few days ago the 1-residium
urged all the party leaders to insist' on greater party
ci
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party discipline.
We must not place too much faith in the smiles of their
visitors. If we give them anything, it must be quid pro
quo. None of us in this country, must he so soft-hcaded as not
to realize that everything they do and say is in furtherance
of a long-range objective to conquer, to dominatel the world.
Now what can we do? I have said that education has
first priority. And what must we do to improve education?
I have frequently proposed a simple first step.
Senator Stennis. Give it again. Give it to us now.
Admiral Rickover. All right, I will give it to you.
Congress should set up a permissive standard to define
what a student should know when he finishes high school.
In every country of the West it has been found there is no
other fast way to improve the educational system, until and
unless they set up standards.
Now as an engineer, I certainly can talk about standards.
I know that we cannot make progress in atomic power plants,
or in missiles, or in space, unless we have standards. The
setting of educational standards is the most urgent thing
Congress can do, and it is a very simple thing. It doesn't
cost anything. It doesn't make anyone angry, either.
You may know that I was on "Meet the Press" ten days
ago. Mr. Lawrence Spivak told me he has received more
mail and requests for transcripts of that program, which
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dm 16 discussed education, than he has ever had on any "Meet the
Press" program. "Meet the Press" as you know started in
1945. The mail was overwhelmingly in favor of what I said
about improving our school system. And you Senators, who
are used to opinion polls, know what that means. It
is evident our people are quite concerned about the poor
education their children are getting.
Mr. Weisl. Do you think. Admiral, that Mr. Rhrushchev
would give greater priority to achieving the Seven Year Plan
than to building up his military striking power?
Admiral Rickover. He definitely would give priority to
building up his military striking power in selected areas. The
promises in the seven year plan are the same as our political
party platforms. People read them and forget them quickly.
Mr. Weisl. Admiral, getting beck to your particular
field of atomic propulsion, what have you been doing in the
last two or three months?
Admiral Rickover. During the last two or three months
I have been writing reports, I have been defending my program.
Not only myself but all of my leading people have become
involved in this.
Mr. Weisl. Why is it necessary for a man who has
accomplished what you have accomplished to spend so much time
away from your technological duties writing reports and
defending your program? Let's get to the nub of that.
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Admiral Rickover. W1i, I don't want to be parochial
or persona/ in this matter. I would prefer to talk about it
in a general way. I can be more helpful that way, I believe.
We have too many administrators and staff people in the
Executive Branch of our government. I am not saying this
in a manner "let's clean house," or anything such as that.
But it is a fact that when there are too many people,
work stops. Parkinson's Law takes over. It is as simple as
that.
These people are smart. They have administrative jobs
to do and in so doing they take up the time of the very
few people who do the real productive work.
Over the last ten years there has been a constant
increase in difficulty in getting a job done in government.
In fact it has gotten to the point now where it is almost
impossible to do a good job.
It isn't money. You don't get jobs done with money
alone. In fact, you can slow jobs with too much money,
because it takes time to spend money. Also it takes lots
of people to spend lots of money.
The situation is comparable to a fire department with
one first station and many fire alarms. We have only the
one fire station but we keep on adding more fire alarms, and
more people are ringing alarms; the fire station can't take
care of all the demands being made on it.
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Similarly the few people doing the actual technical
work are being overburdened by constant requests for
information, justification, rejustification, and so on.
It is not only me. I am not talking about myself alone.
/ am talking about our whole government. ?what I have said
is one of the basic reasons we are falling behind, and why we
are going to continue to fall behind until and unless the
Executive Branch of the Government realizes it has this
problem and takes steps to free the working people from
domination by the non-productive members of Government.
What you can do I don't know. I don't know what you
can do in the Legislative Branch. I have thought about this
problem for a long time and I can give you no panaceas.
But / do believe if there is anything that you can do
to protect the few people who are really doing a job, that
will be well worth while.
For example, why don't we judge people by results? A
nom who is truly dedicated to a job will not want to take on
work he doesngt believe in. If he doesn't believe in a
job, he just won't do it.
Another thing, I have been urged numerous times to take
on additional projects. I won't take them on because I don't
believe they are worthwhile or will interfere with what I
am already doing.
I consider if I or somebody else has produced results,
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dm 19 he certainly should be let alone to devote his time to his
job.
There are many groups in Russia such as mine. They are
not bothered. They are permitted to make some mistakes, but
they are judged by results. They, are not. judged by the
number or thickness of their reports, or by their methods.
Many things cannot be justified, in detail, particularly
in research and development. Day after day people ask
abstruse questions: Why did you use this physics formula,
why did you do that thing; you can't explain those things.
All you can do in scientific or technical matters just as
in politics, is to judge people and results. It is the
only thing you can do. There is nothing else. In final
analysis yedjai_tustaL242,9_,EsopLme.
Let me recapitulate: If a man is doing a job, for
God's sake, let him along. This is not the case in our
Government. That is the real issue; that is our real problem.
Many people who are competent initially and who mould
keep on doing a job finally succumb to the pressure of the
system, and they become hacks. The tendency of any
bureaucracy is to force people into its system. This is
inevitable. The bureaucrats say: "We like what you have
done but we don't like your methods," whereas the fact is
the job could not have been done without those outworn
methods.
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Instead of saying " Here is something new," perhaps
there is a categorical imperative in the new methods,
perhaps we can leara, perhaps we can improve our own work
by these new methods. They don't look at it that way. They
say, "You are using the wrong methods." This goes on day
after day, year after year. One must have great fortitude
and love of country to keep on under these circumstances.
It is almost impossible.
Mr. Weisl. Admiral, it is very disturbing I am sure to
the Committee as it was to me when I visited your place, to
find that with the great problems you still have in connection
with atomic propulsion and atomic energy, that you have been
unable to devote your great skills or the skills of your
great dedicated staff to your work, and have been swamped with
tremendous non-technical overhead.
I think the Committee would be interested in trying to
find out how such a situation can be alleviated, because that
applies to al/ our defense technological progress.
Admiral Rickover. Mr.Weisl, I don't think we can
easily eliminate it in this country. It has become a way of
life in this conduct of our business. We are not trying to
become more efficient because I believe we have gotten used
to the idea that we are a strong powerful nation; that because
a man is born an American he is inherently better than anyone
else; that the Lord has given every American a patent of
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superior ability.
No one has ever defeated up, because in every, war.
we have fought, every external war, we knew we would ultimately
win because the other side was inferior to us from a
geographical standpoint or from an industrial or, material
standpoint. we have never gotten used to the idea that we
might be defeated; that as a great nation we can be subjected
to the same international trials all other great nations have
been subjected to, that so far in our national life we have
been protected by friendly oceans and allies. We conceive of
our contest with Russia as a contest limited contest in time.
We do not realize that it is a contest between totalitarianism .
and freedom; that this contest has been going on from the very
beginning of civilization. Our progressive educationists have
neglected to teach history to our children so we lack a strong
sense of history.
We doWt realize, for example, that Byzantium was at war
with barbarians for 900 years; that Christianity and Islam
fought intermittent hot and cold wars for 900 years with one
side ahead now, the other ahead then; that it was only in
1536 when. Francis I of France signed a treaty with Suleiman,
the Regime of the Capitulations, he took the first step toward
peaceful coexistence of Christian and Moslem.
We also believe that freedom is growing throughout the
world. It is not. Freedom started growing with the
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dm22 Renaissance and with the Reformation, and kept growing for
400 years. But it is now decreasing and rapidly. 20 years
ago the Communists controlled one-sixth of the world. Today
they control one-third. They are the ones that are winning.
We are not the ones that are winning.
Mr. Weisl. Well what should we do about it, Admiral?
What can Congress do about it specifically?
Admiral Rickover. You are asking me to give an answer
to a problem which the collective ability of 100 eminent
Americans -- the U. S. Senate -- has not been able to
solve. I can only give you some thoughts to consider.
Mr. Weisl. You are the man, Admiral Rickover, who gave
us the atomic submarine and that is the one major weapons
system in which we apparently lead the Russians. Would you
tell us how you were able to do that and how perhaps we can
get other departments to do that and keep these administrative
types off the back of dedicated people like you and your
organization.
Admiral Rickover. I don't think I could do the Nautilus
again in the present atmosphere.
MX. Weisl. Sir?
Admiral Rickover. I don't think with the present climate,
the way it has changed in the last ten to twelve years,
I could develop the Nautilus again. Now that is a statement
for you to ponder.
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You asked what we have gotten for the money spent in the
naval program. For about 850 million dollars we got all of
our, laboratories; we got five land prototypes of atomic
power plants that are now operating; we got all of the
research and development over this entire period of time; and
we also got the atomic power plants for the Nautilus and the
Sea Wolf. We got all of this for less than one billion
dollars.
Mr. We/sic. And how much have we spent already on the
atomic airplane, which we haven't got?
Admiral Rickover. I don't know the exact amount, but I
believe it is more than I have spent.
Mr. Weis'. Based on your experience, what can Congress
do to help this country's military research and development
program, which is so important?
Admiral Rickover. You have me at a loss.
Mr. Weisl. Certainly we can't have technical men like
you writing reports and a.staff of dedicated technologists
and scientists spending their time largely writing reports.
Admiral Rickover. The fault is not that of the
Legislative Branch. I am sure you know I will not say nice
things simply because I am in this room. In previous testimony
before congressional committees, I have not always said nice
things.
In the broad sense it is not the Legislative Branch
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dm24 that is responsible for our shortcomings; it is the
Executive Branch. The Executive Branch must see to it
that the senior administrative people in the technical
4:) departments really understand the jobs they are supervising.
Perhaps the Senate should more thoroughly investigate
before it confirms appointees to certain important jobs to
assure that they are really qualified.
Mr. Weis'. Are there still many problems connected with
nuclear propulsion plants?
Admiral Rickover. There are many problems, and we are
not doing as much as we could or should. I finally got to
the point of no return about two weeks ago. At 11:00
o'clock one night a serious technical problem arose. For
the first time in my 12 years in charge of our project there
were no technical people in my organization available to
handle the job. The technical people were all off writing
reports at 11:00 o'clock that night.
Now that is a fine way to use the rare technical
talent we have in this country -- to waste their time on non-
productive work. Whom are we fighting anyway? Are we fighting
ourselves?
Mr. Weisl. Do you believe what is happening to you may
be happening in other technical areas?
Admiral Rickover. I have no doubt it is.
Mt. Weisl. Isn't that one of the reasons that our lead
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time in this country for developing new weapons is about
twice or three times as long as it is in Russia, or even in
Western Europe?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir, our lead-times are increasing;
theirs are decreasing.
Yes, our lead times are getting longer and they are going
to get still longer. Instead of resolving our management
and administrative problems, we follow the easier path of
going to Congress and asking for more money. "The Russians
have launched another sapce vehicle. Give us more money."
As if more money alone would solve our problems!
That will not do it, sir.
Mr. Weisl. Bow do you educate or train your staff?
Admiral Ridkover. I have testified previously, but it
may bear repeating, that everybody says: "Get good men."
But good men aren't available; good men already have good
jobs. A/1 you can do is recruit potentially good youngsters
and spend a great deal of time and effort educating and training
them.
This is what I did. I recruit the 2 to 3 per cent of the
best youngsters from the best schools in this country. I
train them. I have them work in an atmosphere where they are
surrounded by other people who are dedicated. It is the most
gratifying thing to see how these youngsters become devoted
to their jobs, how they work day and night, how they forget
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dm26 about their pay and simply do the job.
There are many youngsters in this country Who would
thrive in that sort of an environment, if given a chance.
But what happens? In most of the agencies the young
men are set to doing routine administrative paper work,to writing
reports, to justifying, and they soon become hacks.
Senator Stennis. They become what?
Admiral Rickover. Hacks.
r. Weisl. Admiral, I met a man, I think his name was
Leighton, a Commander, a graduate of Annapolis, a highly
skilled technical man, and I notice he isn't with you any
more. where is he now?
Admiral Rickover. He is now working at one of our Navy
yards. Due to the Navy rotation system I cannot keep an
officer too long at one job, no matter how valuable he is
or how much the job will suffer if he leaves. If I don't
transfer the man regularly it will hurt his chances for
promotion.
Weisl. Wouldn't you have been better off keeping
him here?
Admiral Rickover. I have no choice. If I don't
transfer him, he will not be promoted. / cannot, in all
conscience do an officer such an injustice, so I let the
job suffer. Some day perhaps technical specialists will be
recognized as such. Just imagine if every good surgeon had
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to be transferred every few years to other, duties. And yet
this is the way we run our 40 billion dollar a year national
insurance company.
Mr. Weisl. Isn't it a fact though that when you have
certain Navy officers working for you they can't be promoted?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, that is correct. The fact that
they work for me militates against their promotion.
Mr. Weisl. Why is that?
Admiral Rickover. Well, they are not liked. You asked
the question. You have your answer.
Mt. Weisl. Is it because you do things differently than
anybody else?
Admiral Rickover. Yes. They rub people the wrong way.
They are not courteous in situations that demand discourtesy.
They are more interested in getting the job done than in
apple polishing, and the routine people whose toes are stepped
on take it out on them.
As a result we now get very few applications from
technical officere. The wore ha n gotten around that to do
nuclear technical work will not-get ahead. "Stay away from that
game. It's poison." And yet this is the field on which the
future of our Navy depends.
Mr. Weisl. Can Congress do something about that?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir. That is where Congress can
help.
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Senator Stennis. Admiral, I have been agreeing with
your testimony here a thousand per cent on that one.
Mr. Weisl. I am sure that this Committee would like
to be of help to prevent men like you and your staff from
getting so discouraged that eventually you just throw in the
sponge. Each of you could go into private industry and make
four to five times what you are now making.
Admiral Rickover. But we don't want to, Mr. Weisl.
We are not interested in making money.
If we were interested in making money, we mould have
quit many years ago when we were offered these lucrative
jobs. Our job is to do everything we can to convert the
Navy to atomic power. It will take many more years to
finish the job, to assure that our country is strong.
You might ask why do we keep on. / will tell you why.
The Lord has never given any man a certificate saying "If
you fight you are bound to win the battle."
No one who is truly a man will give up the fight, even
when he knows he faces certain defeat. This is the only
way he can fulfill himself as a man. Even though he loses
he will inspire others to fight. Throughout history, many
men have had to make sacrifices. So what else can we do?
Mt. Weisl. I think you testified that if it were not
for Congress, you would not have been able to build the atomic
sUbmarine.,
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dm 2S Admiral Rickover. Without the backing we have always
received from Congress we could not get our job done. Time
and again Congress has interceded to help us with the
Executive Branch. The case would be hopeless without my
being able to go to Congress.
This should not be necessary, but it is.
We are subject to daily and constant petty harassments.
You might ask me to give examples. Individually they are not
significant; collectively they waste much of our time. It
? is these petty actions by petty minds who are placed in
positions of authority.
A military organization is not geared to do research
and development. It is an operating type of organization.
Officers who have had command of ships and of fleets and have
done a fine job come to Washington and are given authority
over technical people. Those in line authority are frequently
not competent to make the technical decisions, but they make
them anyway.
Now that wouldn't be so bad if they stayed around long
enough to learn their jobs. I will quote a few figures to
illustrate the point.
During the time I have had my present jdb there have been
seven Secretaries of Defense, seven Secretaries of the Navy,
six Chiefs of Naval Operations, nine Directors of Atomic
Energy in the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, six
455
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Chiefs of the Bureau of Ships, four Chairmen of the Atomic
Energy Commission, six General Managers of the Atomic Energy
Commission and three Directors of the Reactor Development
Division,
Senator Stennis. What years now is that?
Admiral Rickover. From About 1948, to the present time.
Look at the situation we face. Every one of these
individuals and their multitude of subordinates -- and these
likewise rotate rapidly exercise authority over us. Now
ultimately you get to the point, what with explaining what
you are doing to many people, to satisfying Executive Branch
committees, to "educating" the many people who come and go
as on an asseMbly line, and to writing reports, that little
time is left to get any constructive work done.
This is the dilemma. They will not judge us by results.
Since they have no technical basis for judgment they can only
judge methods. For example, officers are used to running ships
and operating fleets on a basis of a rule book, a set of
regulations. This they understand. Now the Captain of a
ship is precluded from placing undue demands on his peopler
because his crew is limited in number and the ship will
quickly be unable to perform its proper functions. Further-
more, if he does anything wrong, this is quickly detected by
his superiors who are at least as expert as he is in the
functions of the ship. But when this same officer arrives at
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the Pentagon there are no checks on him. He has authority
and he exercises it. He exercises his authority, in a vast,
loosely coordinated activity where there are many people
and where the consequences of his actions are not immediately
apparent.
That the work suffers, costs more, or is delayed may
not came to light for a long time, sometimes years.
Frequently, / marvel that we get as much done as we do.
After two or three years the officer leaves and a new
officer takes his place. The officer is never around long
enough to start the job and Right it through to completion.
If the job fails, he is not responsible. There are few in the
Defense Establishment who are responsible for arything at
any time. You know that as well as I do. When you can't
point your finger at a man when something goes wrong and say
?You are responsible," then there is no real responsibility.
And that is the dilemma: that people who are not responsible,
who do not have technical ability, are judging and running
the technical people.
Et. Weisl. Can you tell us anything in connection with
your visit to Russia which would be helpful to the Committee
in evaluating our military posture?
Admiral Rickover. I did not see any military items,
sir. I saw atomic energy installations but not military.
What I did get out of it was this. They do have the
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ability to make decisions quickly. For example, this one
thing I would like to leave off the record if I may.
(Discussion off the record.)
Senator Stennis. Back on the record, Mr.Reporter.
Mt. Weisl. What impression did you get of the intent of
the Soviet leaders?
Admiral Rickover. The intent of the Soviet leaders
is to dominate.
/n one factory I asked the manager "Who will be ahead
seven years from now, the United States or Russia?" He knew
the "correct" answer: "Russia, of course."
Next I asked him, "Who will ultimately be ahead, China
or the United States." He knew the "correct" answer;
"China."
But when I asked the next question it was evident he
had not done his home work. He didn't remeMber the party
line. I said, "Who will be ahead, China or Russia." He
thought and thought for a long time and finally said
"Russia." The party line answer and the one he should have
given was that there can never be any contest between two
Communist countries. Be did have the "correct" answer when
asked him if there had ever been any strikes in his
factory. He replied that this was a foolish question because
the workers were always satisfied, they were working for
themselves, so why should they go on strike. The question of
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a strike had never occurred to anyone in that factory, he
said.
Mr. Weisl. A great many people in this country feel that
we don't have to worry because China and Russia will be
fighting it out between themselves. Do you share that view?
Admiral Rickover. That is wishful thinking. It
relieves us of our problems and shoves them on to the Chinese.
No, sir, I do not share that view.
This is the same as saying we are in mortal danger from
Russia, but let's not worry about it, they themselves are
soon going to be in mortal danger from China. Such wishful
thinking is an unwillingness to face up to reality.
Nr. Weisl. Couldn't this Committee, this Congress or
somebody do something to get these administrators off your
backs, so that you can do your work and not have to write
all these burdensome reports?
Admiral Rickover. It is not entirely an administrative
problem, Mr. Weisl. It is inherent in the system we are
using. This is why it is so difficult to advise you what to
do. I don't know how to give you any concrete advice.
I can only suggest that wherever you have people who
are doing a job, somehow see to it that they are let alone
and judge them by results( not by their methods.
Mr. Weisl. How will you get your work done?
Admiral Rickover. Well, I will somehow get my work done.
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dm 34 I will keep on. We won't do anywhere near as much as we
could do or should do, but we will get some of it done.
Mr. Weisl. That is about all I have to ask. How is
your staff reacting to this report-writing and harassment?
Admiral Rickover. They are not reacting very well,
sir. They are disgusted.
/ don't have a staff of public relations people, ghost
writers or such. I only have technical people. Therefore
when these issues come up, the only people I can use are the
senior technical people.
So while they are engaged in report writing, the
technical decisions are being made by the inexperienced
youngsters. There is no one else to do it. This is the
horrible part of my situation.
If I had a public relations staff as many agencies do
-- the Space Agency I understand has 28 public relations
people -- correct me if I am wrong, but I read that in the
newspaper -- if I had such a staff of 28 people, I could
get along very well, because actually the reports we write
as you know, are never read by anyone except the steno-
graphers. You just have to keep on turning out reports,
but I don't have the people to do this.
Senator Bush. Admiral, could I just ask a question
going back to your comment about permissive standards for the
high schools. Now that is a concrete recommendation.
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Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir.
Senator Bush. But here is the thing. What authority
can the Federal Government use to do that?
Admiral Rickover. What authority?
Senator Bush. We don't have any authority over the
high schools.
Admiral Rickover. You don't have to exercise authority.
If Congress declares "This is what we think would be good
for a high school boy"
OWN FM
Senator Bush. In other words, it would be a statement
of opinion.
Admiral Rickover. Look, you regulate the co/ors of
lipstick, don't you? By what authority do you do that?
Senator Bush. By law, if it is dpne. You have me there
because I am not a lipstick man.
Admiral Rickover. No, sir, there is nothing ?in the
Constitution that says the Federal Government can regulate
airplane or train travel, because there were no airplanes or
trains in 1789, but you are regulating airplanes and trains
anyway.
Senator Bush. Yes, we are regulating them because it
is interstate commerce, and we can regulate and do regulate
interstate commerce, but education is an entirely different
thing.
Admiral Rickover. We do have a U. S. Office of
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Education.
Senator Bush. Yes, we do.
Admiral Rickover. We have appropriated money for
education. Why can't the U. S. Office of Education or
Congress say "This is what we think boys and girls ought to
know." You are not making them follow the standard. It is
not compulsory.
Senator Bush. It is a statement of opinion.
Admiral Rickover. It is a statement of principle.
You could set up a council of scholars to devise it for you.
Now in doing that be sure you keep progressive education
people out of it. You can very easily find out what is being
done in Western Europe and in Russia, this will help you. A
standard could be derived from the standards established in
those countries.
You might take the Russian standard as a lower level,
because the children in Western Europe are about one to two
years ahead of those in Russia. The children in Russia are
one or two years ahead of ours.
Our children should know at least as much as those in
Russia. But the educationists will say, "They will have to
work too hard. It will be bad for their health."
Yet the records show that there is a smaller percentage
of rejections for physical unfitness for military service in
Western Europe and in Russia than there is in the United
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States. So that argument won't hold water.
Senator Bush. They have a tighter discipline right
in the schools, don't they?
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir.
Senator Bush. Not only in Russia but also in Western
European countries.
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir, and they go to school
longer too. For example, our children go to school five hours
a day, five days a week for only 180 days a year. Their
school day is six hours, with no study period, six days a
week. In Denmark they go to school 280 days a year. So
they do in nine years what we do in 14. The average in
Western Europe and in Russia is about 240 days a year.
I can assure you the parents are all for improving our
school system. The vast majority of our people in this
country have children in school; just think how politically
attractive it will be for anyone who advocates better schools.
When you get thousands of letters overwhelmingly in
favor of improving our public school system, in response to a
TV program, that is a pretty meaningful poll.
Senator Bush. That is right. I have observed where
your theories have been tried out at the local level as for
instance in Glastonbury, Connecticut. They lengthened the
hours in school, tightened up on the discipline, and the
parents have gone for it.
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dm 38 Admiral Rickover. The parents are all for it.
Senator Bush. And the students accept it.
Admiral Rickover. But once we set up a standard, the
parents can judge for themselves whether the schools are
doing a good job, whether the teachers are competent. They
can learn where the deficiencies are. They can then take care
of getting better teachers or of getting the teachers to
improve themselves.
But we will never be able to solve this problem until
we first set a standard. We have 50,000 individual school
boards in the United States. We can't expect 50,000
individual school boards to set up adequate educational
standards.
Senator Young. Counsel, may I ask a question on another
subject. Admiral, should we assume that the Soviets do not
have atomic submarine? What about that?
(Discussion off the record.)
Admiral Rickover. We must maintain our lead in atomic
submarines and nuclear propulsion.
If we don't, we will give up ten years advantage, and
this is what I am afraid of is going to happen to is,
because of the vast amount of interference to which my
organization is subjected. I am worried. I am worried we
will lose our lead to the Russians in nuclear submarines.
There is so much we must do to keep ahead.
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dm 39 Let me tell you some of the things we are doing. We
are presently designing nuclear cores that will last much
longer. We can accomplish this if we are let alone to do
(:) our work. Such nuclear pores will last an entire war. just
think what that would mean if we get into a real devastating
war where our, bases may be destroyed, that we have ships that
are self-sufficient from a fuel standpoint.
We are increasing the life of our nuclear, cores and the
cost is being greatly reduced. That is what we can do. We
will save large sums of money, if we are just permitted to go
on and do our work.
That is all we ask. All of my people and I have given
up practically every bit of our personal lives.
Senator Stennis. Given up what?
Admiral Rickover. Every bit of our personal lives. We
don't have any. We have given it up.
Mr. Weisl. You are harassed all the time?
Admiral Rickover. We mould work just as hard one way
or the other, but it is much better that we be permitted to
work on strengthening our country. That is all we ask.
We don't want more pay. We just want to be permitted to do
OW work.
That may be an unusual request in this day and age,
but there are still people in this country who are willing
to do that.
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Senator Stennis. Admiral, may I ask a question right
there?
Isn't there someone that you could request protection
of, particularly in the matter of your highly critical
category? Isn't there someone that you could request protection
in that very field that you are talking out and get it?
Admiral Rickover. Let's take Congress. Can I go to
Congress every time I have a problem?
Senator Stennis. I mean within your organization.
Admiral Rickover. No, sir. The top people are generally
with me, but they have large numbers of subordinates whom
they do not control.
The Pentagon today is a big jungle, as you well know.
No one could possibly control that outfit with its large
number of people.
In fact, the Pentagon is the "fifth service." There
are the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. These are the
four services. So the Pentagon has become the "fifth service."(
The top people can no longer control adequately the
situation. They are busy with their own problems; some of
their subordinates in their small, petty ways are constantly
interfering with us.
Believe me if I knew how to stop it, I would do so, but
I can't go around and bother the top people every day.
There might be a declaration of policy by Congress for certain
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selected objectives. You could say: "Don't harass these
people," something of that sort.
I don't believe Congress can go beyond that. Nor can
any man request or insist that his work not be judged. Mind
you, sir, I am not requesting that. I am not saying that my
work should not be subject to Budget review, to review by
congressional c'ommittees, or by anyone else who has a
legitimate need.
But when many people have the right to stop you for
questioning, that is a real problem. Nearly everybody in the
Pentagon has the right to question me, but with no obligation
and no responsibility to see that my job gets done. And every
year the number of people with this right is increasing.
This is why it would help to arbitrarily reduce the number
of people in the Pentagon by 20 or 30 per cent. This could
be one of the most significant steps that has ever been taken
to improve efficiency. It is significant that one of the
first steps Mr. Mrushchev took When he became Premier was to
reduce the Moscow bureaucracy by more than 100,000.
Senator Stennis. You can be frank with us. Do we call
you to the Hill too often?
Admiral Rickover. No, sir.
Senator Stennis. Or take too much of your time there,
or for reports?
Admiral Rickover. No, sir, that is not my problem. I
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dm 42 don't mind coming up to the gill. I don't mind getting a
chance to talk with congressional committees because I think
do some good.
1 have never been unduly bothered by Congress or by
requests from Congress.
A lot of people complain about Congress, that Congress
asks for too much. Maybe they are asking too much of
Congress. Maybe that is why Congress is questioning them
so much. They may not be completely straightforward with
Congress.
I have no complaint whatsoever so far as Congress is
concerned. I would like to wash that one up. My problems
are in the Executive Branch.
Mr. Weisl. I think you made the statement if it hadn't
been for certain members of Congress, you never would have
built the atomic submarine.
Admiral Rickover. That is right. Senator Stennis, do
you believe if I thought that Congress was holding me back I
would not tell you this?
Senator Stennis. I think you would. That is why I
asked you the question. I know that you speak your mind.
Senator Wiley, do you have some questions for the
Admiral?
Senator Wiley. I think I have a few. First r want
to compliment you, sir, for a very challenging statement.
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I would like to have a COPY, if it were possible, of what
took place on this Spivak television program.
senator Young. I will give you 10 cents and you can
get it.
Senator Jackson. Alex, I am going to put it in the
record.
Senator Wiley. Then you have it.
Then I have this question: I think your remarks in
relation to education are very challening. We have got
an education bill up now. But if in this Spivak meeting
that you speak of, did you outline the particular tests
that are necessary for the youngsters or anything of that
kind?
Admiral Rickover. No, sir, but they are available in
other things I have written.
Senator Wiley. I would like to get a copy of them.
Admiral Rickover. All right, sir.
Senator Wiley. Let me say that one of our problems
today is that, as someone has said, at least they said it
years ago when I was in college, a fellow came down from
Northern Michigan looked around, and he said, "I thought
all the smart boys went to college, but I think they stayed
home."
So the question is, whether we are spending a lot
of unnecessary money in what you might call the superficial
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470
in education.
Admiral Rickover. We are, sir. There have been esti-
mates made that about 200 to 300 thousand people in the
public school system are engaged in things that are not
essential for the educational process, such as amateur
psychologists, amateur sociologists, administrators, public
relations people, and so on.
Those functions should be performed by the church or
the home; they do not belong in tax-supported schools. This,
of course, takes up the time of the students in school and
keeps them from learning the things they should.
Senator Wiley. I wanted to get your reaction on one
other subject, because we have got now laws against youngsters
working, you know, if they are under lain certain places,
or 16, and in other places everybody that is up to 18 is
entitled to an education.
The result is we have a lot of waste energy, and we
have a lot of expense. We are talking about billions now
for increased buildings and the 'whole thing amounts to
whether or not it is a good investment.
If it is a good investment, that is one thing; if, on
the other hand, there is an element of waste, we are not
fair to the youngsters, we make loafers out of them.
I would like to get your reaction on that picture,
because to me it is a very challenging thing.
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Admiral Rickover. I have given this subject a great
deal of thought.
The problem is not so much with lack of opportunity for
education. It is with the.fact that the home does not
encourage youngsters to stay on at school and get an
adequate education.
I think we put the cart before the horse. In England a
Central Advisory Council for Education has just finished a
report entitled "15 to 18." Some of the best brains in
England have been working on this project for more than three
years.
This report proposes a national standard of requiring
youngsters to stay in school at least until 16. It will
cost them 200 to 250 million pounds extra per years but they
think it is worth while and essential for it he welfare of their
country. Interesting studies have been made, Senator Wiley,
in Russia, in England, in Prance, in Western Europe, in the
United States on the effect of home environment on desire
and aptitude for education. These studies invariably show
that the motivation received in the home is one of the most
important factors in education.
That is, if a child listens to adult intel/ectual
conversation he is helped to develop. If he listens
to inane trivia from hiS parents, from TV or radio, he is
harmed. The home is the greateSt influence in .
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keeping the children in school longer. In fact without this
home influence many children want to leave school as early, as
possible so they can start earning money. This places a great
responsibility on parents.
This shows up Oven in Russia where most children come
from proletarian families, those children whose parents are
in the civil service or white collar class stay longer at
school than those whose parents are manual workers.
So the problem really is to keep the children at school
longer.
I personally would not keep children in school after
16 if there, were definite indications they had no aptitude
for further academic work. But / certainly would do much
more to give academic work to all our children than our
schools presently attempt.
Now I am going to say something, Senator Stennis, that I
know will interest you. The United States Office of
Education issued in 1951 a bulletin entitled "Life Adjustment
Education for Every Youth." It is one of the most anti-
intellectual documents I have ever read.
According to this pamphlet, 60 per cent of the boys and
girls in the United States are incapable of mastering an
academic education. The level of education in our schools
has been lowered to take care of this supposed incapable
majority.
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dm 47 I maintain that far more than 40 per cent of our
children are capable of mastering an academic education which
would fit them to go to college, if the high schools knocked
off the frills, and if they, taught academic subjects. This
is where we are shortchanging our, children. We give up too
quickly and too easily in attempting to educate all our
children.
So the question is really the opposite of what you
stated.
I think 16 is About the limit where children should stay
in school if they have given definitelindications they are
473
not capable of further academic education. But up to 16 we
A
should force the.children as much as possible to develop their
intellects and not devote their time to learning how to
operate a lathe, and so on. They can learn that much
quicker and better in a factory. Our schools give up too soon
on our children. It is easier for the school administrators,
of course.
And how easy it is to take this easy course if we don't
have standards. It is easy for the teachers too, because no
one can judge them.
Senator Stennis. May I interrupt you just a minute,
gentlemen?
senator Jackson is going to have to leave. For the
benefit of those who are not familiar with the situation,
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474
Senator Jackson was on the Armed Services Committee when
the matter first came up About Admiral Rickover being retained
in the service. Senator. Jackson was very, well informed about
Admiral Rickover's outstanding work and was very helpful to the
Committee, indeed, in its determination to keep Admiral
Rickover in the Navy and keep the nuclear submarine program
going. The Navy finally saw the light and promoted Admiral
Rickover and the Nation has continued to receive the benefits
of his very great abilities.
May we recognize Senator Jackson out of order, Senator
Wiley, for anything that he wishes to say or comment on what
the Admiral said?
Senator Wiley. That young man is never out of order.
Senator Jackson. Mx. Chairman, / don't mean to break
in here. I am sorry I was tied up in another meeting. I
merely wanted to say that I was sorry that I missed the main
remarks of Admiral Rickover, but I will read this entire
record with great interest.
do want to say that when we get into some of these
organizational problems at the appropriate time, I think we
could profit by Admiral Rickover's return to the Committee.
1 want to say to my colleagues that when I was in the
House on the Atomic Energy Committee eleven years ago, Admiral
Rickover at that time was coming up to brief us on the atomic'
submarine program. He stood alone in his determination,
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475
pretty, much alone, I would say, in his determination to
see that program through. I do think that in considering
critical projects that need to be pushed with vigor and
vitality and sensibility, I think that the lesson of how the
atomic submarine came into being under his leadership would
be a helpful guide in connection with some of our critical
projects today, and with that I yield.
Admiral Rickover. Thank you very much, sir.
Senator Stennis. You will be interested to know, I am
sure, Senator, that the Admiral has testified that the word
has gotten around that it is not too healthy a thing to join
his staff if an officer is interested in his promotional
chances.
Senator Jackson. I think that this is something that
our Committee, the Armed Services Committee, should look
into. I am concerned about it, and I am glad that it was
brought out here.
don't think that it is advisable, at a time when our
security depends on scientific achievement, to play down and
to degrade those officers who go into the kind of career
that can add immeasurably to our security through scientific
achievement.
Senator Stennis. This is the one time since / have
served on the Armed Services Committee, that the Committee
directly intervened, you might say, in connection with the
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476
promotion list, and saw to it that it was changed to include
Admiral Rickover. What has happened since shows that this
was a wise move that has benefited the Nation.
Senator Cannon?
Senator Cannon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Jackson. Thank you, Senator Cannon, for yielding
to me. I appreciate your kindness.
Senator Cannon. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any questions
for the Admiral, but I have enjoyed very much his discussion
here. It seems to me that what he has said is very important
information and should be made available to the public.
I wonder if we could ask the Admiral to go through this
record after it is transcribed, and indicate what is
classified, because we are in a closed hearing. It seems
to me that the bulk of this information would not and should
not be classified, and I think it is something that should be
called to the attention of the public.
Admiral Rickover. There is hardly any part of my
testimony that is classified. I will certainly check it for
classification.
Senator Stennis. I think that is a fine suggestion.
I want to say this to you. I am convinced, with the
greatest deference to our people and our nation, that we are
going soft. This is not a new thought for me, for I have
been making speeches in Mississippi and elsewhere about
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477
austerity year after year.
We have to tighten up our belts some and get some more
steel in our backbones and train it into our youth. 1 have
been surprised, Admiral Rickover, at the response that you
get from thinking people. They seem to be hungry to hear
something besides the soft line, so to speak.
Admiral Rickover. I know that, sir. 1 have experienced
this everywhere 1 have spoken.
Senator Stennis. I made the statement many times,
said we were robbing our youth.
Admiral Rickover. That is right, sir.
Senator Stennis. We are robbing them of the personal
satisfaction, as well as the opportunity to improve them-
selves in the future, by not teaching them more the lesson
that real personal advancement and satisfaction comes only
from individual effort and training and doing the hard
thing.
Then I said that the movement must originate in the
living rooms rather than depend on the church and the
schools, and there has been a terrific response and cheering
from various types of audiences on that very point.
am not pointing to my speech or my thought as anything
that is unusual, but, because of the way it was received
as evidence, showing that the American people realize and
sense that we have got to have somewhat of a changed attitude.
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478
dm 52 Admiral Rickover. I have had the same experience, sir,
everywhere.
Senator Stennis. You said that you got all these
(:) overwhelmingly favorable replies to your remarks on "Meet
the Press." I watched that very closely, and I wrote you a
letter asking you for a transcript.
Admiral Ridkover. Yes, sir.
Senator Stennis. I know we have all been interested and
moved by your remarks today. As Senator Jackson said, there
are other times too when your testimony would be very valuable,
particularly on those subjects we have not covered today.
Admiral, you referred to me awhile ago when you were
(:) discussing the problems of rotation and promotion for
technically trained officers. For the information of those
that would not know, you were referring to the fact that
I had served part-time as Chairman of the subcommittee of
Armed Services on Personnel.
Admiral Rickover. Yes, sir.
Senator Stennis. I haven't exhaustedly investigated
that problem, but I think that that would be a very fertile
field and that something could be done about it. I wanted to
(:) say that for the record so it would be clear.
Mow I want to ask you this specific question. You
referred to your own group that you are working with and your
own staff. How much help do you get from outside your own
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dm 53 organization, Admiral, in the problems that confront you?
Do you get any help outside of your own group?
Admiral Rickover. Little, sir.
Senator Stennis. I commend you very highly for what you
have done for the Navy and for the country. I think that
appreciation is reflected by. the public in response to your
television interview, as well as other things that you have
been recognized for.
Now this matter of the Armed Services Committee going
into the matter of who will be promoted and who will not,
and who will be retired and who will not, that is a very
delicate matter and I don't like to go into it.
1 don't think the Committee ought to go into it very
often. In fact, your case is.the only one that I think we
have aver gone into. But I certainly had my eyes opened in
that matter, and I want to pledge you my continuing support
as long as your record is like it is. I think you now have,
and will continue to have, the support of the entire Committee
on any set of facts where merit is on your side and you need
help.
479
1, for one, hope that you don't stop the efforts that
you are carrying on. I am not on the Joint Atomic Energy
Committee, so I don't have too much persona/ knowledge of the
details of what you are doing, but I know you are getting
results, and I don't know where we would have been if you
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dm 54 hadn't stuck it out, contributing what you have, you and
your staff. We know from what you have said that many of
them are entitled to great credit.
(:) I don't look on this as any ref lecton on the President
or anything of that kind at all. It is a matter of the
organization giving a man that can deliver, a chance to do
so without being harassed or overburdened with inconsequential
administrative chores. We admire you for your fighting
spirit as well as for your great ability and you may be sure
that the Congress will continue to give you the support you
need to continue your efforts in the national interest.
Is there anything further? Senator Wiley, do you have
anything further?
Senator Wiley. Nothing further except to say that I
have listened with profit to the discussion by the distinguished
Admiral, and I trust that he realizes and will realize how much
we hold him in esteem, how much we think of him. Because he
is no different from the rest of us, I am sure he appreciates
appreciation, and we al/ appreciate you, sir.
Admiral Ridkover. Thank you, sir.
Senator Stennis. We certainly are glad that we were
able to hear you this afternoon.
We are very glad to have had you with us, sir, and
congratulations again, and convey our regards to your staff
too. I know you have a fine group there with you.
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dm 55 (Whereupon, at 6:15 o'clock pl. m., the hearing was
recessed, to reconvene at 10:00 a. m. Thursday, February 4,
1960.)
WWI ea\ OS
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