AL-QADHDHAFI RECALLS PRE-REVOLUTION DAYS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400430033-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 14
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 2, 2012
• Sequence Number: 33
• Publication Date: May 3, 1988
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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FBIS-NES-88-088
6 May 1988
But the French general is mistaken. Instead of venturing
into the quicksands of Chad, he should think of the fate
of the Chadians suffering from the acts of the Ndjamena
authorities and over whose fate Amnesty International
has expressed concern.
Libya
Al-Qadhdhafi Recalls Pre-Revolution Days
LD05 05 085 788 Tripoli Television Service in Arabic
1822 GMT 3 May 88
[Interview with Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi by two uniden-
tified men and an unidentified woman in the presence of
two prisoners recently freed by AI-Qadhdhafi; date,
place not given-recorded]
[Excerpts] [Announcer] Ladies and gentlemen, revolu-
tion is (?fraternity). It is the road to freedom and the
result of an unlimited flow; hence, it is freedom. Since
revolution is freedom it is, therefore, the state of con-
stant departure from the customary and from stagnation.
It is also the daily birth of the new and the glorious.
Revolution, as the student Al-Qadhdhafi wrote on his
wall newspaper at the Misratah secondary school, is a
sun that shines for everyone. Let us add, however, that in
order to shine for everyone,. this sun had to travel a
distance of 4,000 days, which is the time of torment
spent by Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, the student, who was
called an agitator by the education authorities in Fezzan
Province. He was also called a heretic dreamer when he
arrived in one of the streets of the poor town of Sabhah
and destroyed the regional map, shouting slogans in
favor of a united Arab republic.
Then, the officers of the decrepit Royal Army attempted
to contain his dream of a sun shining for everyone by
sending him to Britain, and also by providing for him a
life of luxury in a comfortable house in a barracks, in
addition to other absurd and comic allurements.
In order to make this beautiful, warm, joyful, and friendly
sun shine for everyone, Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi had 'to go
through 4,000 days of tiredness, bitterness, anxiety, pain,
and suffering, while others wanted no sun, let alone a sun
that shone for everyone. For this beautiful and clear sun we
recall tonight the memory of the 4,000 days, which lasted
from 1959 to the dawn of September 1969.
[Unidentified interviewer] Welcome brother leader.
Freedom has been established and with it the march of
the Great Al-Fatili has been reinforced. Indeed, it has
received echoes in many countries of the world where
peoples are subjected to oppression and arbitrariness.
Now their situation is becoming worse and there is a
pressing need for these masses to rebel against their
governments. If the matter concerned, let us say, ordi-
nary sections of the population, it could be explained in
terms of a revolutionary mind like yours. However, this
amnesty, leniency, and action on the whole was aimed,
in fact, at groups that harmed the revolution, some of
which harmed you personally. Yes, some of them tried to
assassinate or betray you. In all the revolutions of the
world, the conventional thinking is to make those people
and those political movements that have outdated pro-
grams and thinking pay a very high price in order to
allow the popular movement to progress, continue, and
be enriched.
From the beginning of the revolution you have always
shown leniency, even when the revolutionary ideas
risked being jeopardized in the cradle of the revolution,
in Fezzan, due to the tyranny of the family of Sayf
al-Nasr. Even then you did not respond with the conven-
tional retaliation which a revolutionary would adopt in
confronting a feudal. family and a feudal antirevolutio-
nary program. You did not take revenge. Why did you
not think of revenge and why did you not take revenge?
We are discussing this matter because we are confronted
with a situation in which you have released various
prisoners, some of whom tried to rob the revolution and
harm the Libyan people, the Arab nation, and the history
of this revolution, which our colleague has just discussed
and which was 4,000 days of suffering and torment.
Those people tried to rob you of your efforts; they tried
to liquidate you. They, therefore, tried to undermine the
march of the Arab people in Libya. You personally knew
of these attempts to rob you of your efforts. We would
like to hear something about the history of the revolution
in order to see whether those people played any role in
the revolution or had any credit for the liberation of the
people, or if they had any right to claim that they could
guide the revolution or that they could express their
views about it. Why? What have we done to them? Why
did you grant them pardons?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] [laughs] This is a multifaceted subject,
and somehow (?complicated) in parts [words indistinct].
What we can affirm is that we will find difficulty in
moving these contradictory things. Indeed, all these facts
and proposals contain some opposing, contradictory
elements. What we can say regarding the [word indis-
tinct] of the revolution, which I have announced, is that
none of the people who were arrested after the revolution
were remotely related to the founding of the Free Union-
ist movement, which subsequently became the Free
Unionist Officers movement. This was founded in 1959.
No one who was imprisoned after the revolution had
knowledge of this action, and none of them took part in
beginning that movement. The Libyan people as a whole
were not aware that a revolutionary movement for the
liberation of Libya was founded in 1959-60.
Proceeding from this, the attempts made after the revo-
lution, the attempts aimed against the revolution, were
not operations to liberate Libya because the liberation
was carried out by the revolution. The revolution liber-
ated Libya from the reactionary monarchy and foreign
forces. It also destroyed tyrannical relations. There was
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(?no justification) for the second operation, after which
people were sentenced to death, to life imprisonment, or
detention, without investigation.
What was the reason for this? In reality, those people
were trying to claim the revolution for themselves after it
had accomplished its national mission. That is why their
punishments were execution, imprisonment, or life
imprisonment because this was not like stealing a loaf of
bread or [words indistinct]. They were stealing a sacred,
historic action that concerned a futuristic revolutionary
program with a direct impact on generations of the Arab
nation and on the world, especially the Third World-
Africa and Latin America-in the same way as you see
the effects of the Libyan revolution on the world libera-
tion movements.
A historic schedule was about to be stolen. Those who
steal material things have their hand cut off according to
the Koran. According to the laws of revolution, those
who steal the revolution itself will have their head
chopped off. I had a great role in postponing the chop-
ping off of the heads of those who attempted to steal the
revolution. Those who were permitted to live were
released (?this time). I do not believe that anyone know-
s...[sentence incomplete as heard] We used to hear about
[word indistinct] in Egypt or something like this, or its
tyranny and injustices, but all the people, the Libyans
who were in prison, many of them did not know what
was taking place in Egypt. [Words indistinct] the tyr-
anny. This is not because I am who I am, but because of
the revolution. I had a revolutionary schedule that
opposed [word indistinct].
I had to undergo much suffering in order to establish the
revolution at the beginning. I made it a reality that began
to appeal to the youth who joined it in groups and as
individuals under circumstances that [words indistinct].
No one knows about this. None of these people had
knowledge of this. That family's tyranny and ruthless-
ness were not directed at me. They were only threatening
the revolution. Of course, it was possible for them to
destroy the revolution at the beginning. However, in
fact, Libyan tribes, groups, and individuals suffered
from that family's tyranny. It is important that we use
this occasion to end this subject. It should be explained
and ended.
First, this family which [words indistinct] and which
attempted to destroy the revolution from the beginning,
attempted to eliminate it-but it is not the whole family.
[Word indistinct] that this family does possess arrogant
thought or haughty spirit or [word indistinct]. They were, of
course, living and being blessed at the expense of others. But
not [words indistinct]. Only one of that family bore Muham-
mad in the era I observed. He was the [words indistinct], the
one of arrogance and of [word indistinct]. He inspected the
regions and [word indistinct]
This family had some mujahidin; one of this family was
called Ahmad. He was a mujahid, but he was smeared by
the French [words indistinct] as a result of shortsighted-
ness or [word indistinct]. He was not an opponent of the
people nor was he a tyrant; he was an ordinary person
[words indistinct]. Another one was called (Omar Abd
al-Mighwani). Poor man, he minded his own business
[words indistinct] this last group; there is one called
Muhammad. At first he was a (?spy for the Italians), but
[words indistinct] good people. [Words indistinct] some
of them are still working in the Jamahiriyah; working
diligently.
They do not have all this [words indistinct]. They mind
their own business [words indistinct]. I do not [words
indistinct] that he must then be on the blacklist. No, no,
[words indistinct] those whom we put in [word indis-
tinct] the blacklist and on the firewood of hell are those
like Muhammad Sayf al-Nasr and Abd al-Jalil Sayf
al-Nasr. It is possible that these two can be considered
tyrants; as the ones who [words indistinct]. They con-
spired against all the residents of Fezzan, what they call
Fezzan. They [words indistinct] people on a wide scale.
That means that the inhabitants of Fezzan were all under
the control of these people.
Take a tribe like the tribe of (Hissun). The truth is that it
was alike [words indistinct] United States. By God, it
was [words indistinct] and they are a small tribe. And
[words indistinct] this family, and this family, in fact,
was (?controlled by) the Italians, and it was called [word
indistinct] Al-Nasr, in the old days.
In the [word indistinct] latter period the Italians [words
indistinct]. As for the other tribe, not all of it was, in fact,
as I told you. There is a tribe, the tribe of (Milaha). The
same thing happened. The Italians aimed at it [words
indistinct] and living under terrorism, under repression.
The revolution, in fact, rid them of this yoke and of this
control over them. And [word indistinct] it rid them of
[word indistinct] Muhammad. If the monarchist era had
continued, somebody else like [words indistinct] could
have come up.
Thus, in reply to some of the questions, I was not [words
indistinct]. I did not think of arresting any of this family.
Until 8 September 1969, when my name was mentioned
on the radio, this [word indistinct] Muhammad himself
came to the radio station to congratulate me when he
heard my name. I heard [words indistinct]. I did not
want to give him importance. I did not want to go and
see him or to give him importance. When they told me
about him, I laughed and that is it. But afterward,
officers came and arrested him. They said [words indis-
tinct]. So, I did not even know of his arrest until later,
after he (?contacted me, my father told me). He said: Let
Muhammad Abu Minyar come! [words indistinct] After-
wards, my father came to me. He said Muhammad
[words indistinct] is in jail, under arrest. He is [words
indistinct] and afraid [words indistinct]. I told them to
transfer him to the hospital. They transferred him to the
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hospital and I think he died there. He collapsed, I mean,
as a result of the revolution; he had a breakdown. [words
indistinct] The pillars of the former regime collapsed.
[words indistinct]
This family (?in fact, are tyrants). They mobilized tribes
with them, like (Awlad Sulayman) and [words indistinct]
in order to fight [words indistinct] (Awlad Sulayman)
and the (Hissuns) are brothers and neighbors, and they
are in one district, the district of Surt. They are (?inter-
mingled) and they are all Muslims. I mean [words
indistinct] they are brothers and close to each other.
Their interests are mutual and their interests require that
they cooperate.
However, because his family was hostile to Hasun, it
mobilized [words indistinct] against these tribes [word
indistinct] against the Garha tribe, while the Garha are
brothers of these people [words indistinct]. This meant
dividing brothers in order to control. Afterwards, it tried
to make them hostile to the people who were not from its
ranks and divided the people into ranks-a higher rank
and a lower rank. All of this because of [word indistinct]
in reality.
Not all of those who came to serve [word indistinct],
such as the tyrants Abd al-Jalil, Muhammad, [words
indistinct] participate in the era as far as I knew. Not all
the members of the family said bad things against the
Garha or Hasun. They did not even know them; their
relatives might have known them. Afterwards, I did not
see direct enmity between the sons of [word indistinct]
(Salman), Hasun, or Garha as it was not their interest
and they did not have bad intentions towards each other
because they were brothers and neighbors. In order to
exploit them, the chauvinism of the Za'rawa tribe and
the racism of one member of this tribe was activated.
[words indistinct]
[Unidentified interviewer] (?What is the date) of your
release of those who stole the revolution.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] How can you say such things? [laughter]
[Interviewer] Take the case of (Shaykh al-Nasr). Why did
you not take your revenge on this family? All right, why
did you not take your revenge on Muhammad?
[Unidentified woman] Despite the fact that he was
directly responsible for expelling you from Sabhah.
[Interviewer] It was possible for the revolution to be
finished, and it was possible that it would not take place
at all. It was possible for them to prevent the leader from
studying and there was a possibility that they would
destroy these ideas, this freedom. It was possible that the
monarchy would have remained, together with the for-
eign bases, the underdevelopment, the reaction, and
everything else and prevent you from studying [word
indistinct].
ARAB AFRICA
[Al-Qadhdhafi] As a revolutionary, it is not possible for
me to take revenge [word indistinct] at all. In reality
revenge, malice, (?egoism), and the desire for power or
any other desire is a disease and it is not possible for the
revolutionary to be sick. If he is sick, has one of these
sicknesses, it means he is not a revolutionary. Personal
revenge is not compatible with being a revolutionary. It
is not possible for me to take revenge for personal
reasons.
Naturally, (Bey Muhammad) [word indistinct] pre-
vented me, expelled me, and caused me a great deal of
family and personal trouble at an early age. It was
possible that this would have an influence on the revo-
lution, and it was possible for us to be in a position where
we could not build the revolutionary cells [word indis-
tinct]. However, after the revolution triumphed he was
not important. He had no arms and I did not even think
to arrest him because he had become an ordinary person.
He got this [word indistinct] from the monarchy and
when the monarchy was destroyed he became nothing. I
was not interested in him at all or in arresting him.
[words indistinct] Some members of this family are
friends [words indistinct]. He was a police officer and I
saw him after the revolution. I told him: Continue as a
police officer. However, he joined a conspiracy; he
admitted it and was sentenced to death. But, I inter-
vened and stopped the death sentence and he is now free,
knowing [words indistinct] he was lured. A relative of his
lured him and escaped. The one who lured them ran
away, like one among the Muslim brothers. I do not
know his name [word indistinct] lured the people and is
still abroad. Under the protection of U.S. intelligence he
trains some people [word indistinct] enter Libya. They
will either die or be arrested and he is staying abroad. He
has companies and (?is protected) by U.S. intelligence.
[Interviewer] If we go back to the dangerous liberation
operation which you led step-by-step before the revolu-
tion, you mentioned at the beginning of your speech that
those who were arrested after the revolution or who had
conspired had no role in the liberation of Libya; that
their aim was not to liberate either the Libyan land or the
Libyan citizen, as the revolution was based on these
supreme goals. It implemented a dangerous program: the
expulsion of foreigners, the elimination of the monarchy,
and the building of a free national economy. It is enough
that the revolution of [word indistinct] expelled the
Italian fascist community which was settling in Libya.
Leader, is it possible to give us a few details of some of
the events and suffering you had to personally undergo
while building the movement before the revolution? Is it
also possible to tell us about some of the prisoners who
have now been released? What was their position regard-
ing the revolution? Did they have revolutionary ferver
before the revolution? This may be of interest.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Thanks be to God we were able to
overcome difficult circumstances. [passage omitted] In
my second year at the secondary school there was revo-
lutionary activity and the class deliberately participated
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in demonstrations in order to get to know the revolu-
tionary elements who constituted the revolution, which
liberated people from [words indistinct]. From that day
on, activities were concentrated on getting to know
revolutionary elements, setting up revolutionary cells,
and planning the revolution.
The government of Fezzan became concerned about the
revolutionary activity and demonstrations, and Mah-
mud [words indistinct], in particular, became upset
because our activity was threatening their sultan. They
expelled me. [words indistinct]. I was not prepared to
confront any hard or severe [word indistinct] because the
family was poor and I could not afford to be away from
it. I was living with my mother. She was staying in
Fezzan because of me and had left my father in Surt
[words indistinct]. She stayed with me so that [word
indistinct] Sabhah. She was staying in the house, which
you have seen [words indistinct]. We stayed in that
house. Naturally, they thought I was preoccupied with
[word indistinct] getting a job and money [words indis-
tinct], but my main preoccupation was planning the
revolution. I submitted a petition explaining that I was a
poor student and did not even have a relative who was
educated and had a job who could help me. [Words
indistinct] question marks regarding us, on my fate as a
student [words indistinct].
The first strike directed against me on a personal basis
and against the revolutionary action, on the family side,
the first harmful action. [incomplete sentence as heard]
It is known that I did not even have [words indistinct]
Sabhah or anywhere I studied. Moving from Sabhah, I
found that in the army I had a relative, a soldier in that
army. [words indistinct] I went to Misratah. The army
was moving toward Tripoli, but they sent me to Misra-
tah. I only had a suitcase and a bag for my books. I
stopped at a gas station and left the suitcase-it was a
large one-and my book bag there. I walked to [word
indistinct] and went to Uncle Khalil and told him the
story. I told him that [words indistinct], but keep it to
yourself because we do not want anyone to hear of this
and [words indistinct].
I entered the school [words indistinct]. An Egyptian
teacher helped me and wrote down my grades so that
there was no objection to my transferring to another
school. [passage indistinct]
There was nothing, but I was determined to study. I went
and, by God, I had it in my mind to sleep under a tree
and go to school in the morning. It was in my mind to
study, but how [words indistinct]. [passage omitted]
[Interviewer] Were you ever detained?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I was arrested twice in Sabhah when I
was a student. This study is known. They brought me
before the court, but the court in its turn said I was only
a small student and innocent [words indistinct].
[Interviewer] And when you became an officer?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Of course the criminal period was
between March and September 1969. An order was
issued for my arrest. There was an officer in the military
police named Al-Masri, and he is still serving in the
military. He wrote to (Al-Shuqayfah) and (Al-Shilhi). He
wrote them an arrest warrant in my name. I was on leave
at the time. Then, after they were given the warrant, the
two fell out with each other. One said: Arrest him! And
the other said: No! One said: If we arrest him maybe it
will lead to pressure and a revolution in the army, and
the king will be angry. He will say: You assure me of the
army's loyalty and here is the army (?taken) by junior
officers behind your back!
That was the opinion of (Al-Shilhi). He said [words
indistinct] those are junior officers and I am a colleague
of some of them. We will disperse them! Send them on
7-, 5-, or 4-year courses. (?Send them) to the air defense
section. We were all candidates for the courses. The first
batch was sent to Britain; the second batch was sched-
uled to leave on 1 September. In it were about 25
lieutenants from the movement, and 12 lieutenants from
the movement went before them to Britain. [words
indistinct] The other said: No, he must be arrested. They
fell out with each other. [words indistinct] It would have
been serious if the order had been carried out. I mean,
people were not aware when we used to meet at [word
indistinct] Sabhah and the village of Hajarah. [Words
indistinct] meetings at night, meetings during the day;
the leaflets we used to write; and the books which we
used to steal from the library and distribute. [words
indistinct] I remember going to inform the group in
Misratah, when I was a student in Sabhah, of the shape
of the organization, how separate cells begin [words
indistinct].
I saw a car halfway between Sabhah and Misratah in the
winter, and its occupants gave me a lift to Abu Qurayn.
I spent the night there and stayed somewhere between
Darnah and [words indistinct] until the car arrived. They
said: The boy who was with us wants to volunteer.
[words indistinct] In my case, I reached Misratah after
much pain, and there I met the group and they saw that
I had suffered. It was Ramadan, and I was walking to
organize the free officers from Banghazi to Al-Khums,
Misratah, Tripoli, and back, about eight times on Thurs-
day and Friday.
I used to travel all this distance in such a short time, and
I used to go to that small cafe which opened at 0500 in
the morning to have a coffee in order to wake up a bit.
Sometimes the car would drop me on the road, and on
one occasion when I got to the cafe I saw a bus [words
indistinct], and I met a U.S. soldier named Pomegranate.
I asked him where he was going. He said that he was on
leave and was going to take the bus. I told him to forget
about the bus and drive with me to Tripoli; just forget
the bus. I had to get to Tripoli that night to secretly meet
with officers and return to Gar Yunus without anyone
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noticing my absence. If I had travelled on my own, I
would probably have fallen asleep in the car because I
was extremely tired. In fact, these revelations are known
to no one, and then somebody comes and tries to [word
indistinct] from the person who spent sleepness nights
and suffered from exhaustion.
When I was a student at the military academy, they used
to keep me from going on leave by punishing me,
charging me with insubordination and rebellion. So I
was banned from leaving the barracks on Thursdays and
Fridays. But, I used to go over the wall wearing my
military uniform, not civilian clothes, so as not to show
that I was banned from leaving. Any student banned
from leaving who put on civilian clothes could not go
out, and if he was caught they shaved his head to
humiliate him. Therefore, I used to wear my uniform
[words indistinct] and go out in all kinds of weather and
head for Banghazi to meet with students from the
military academy. If I wanted to meet with them I told
them that the meeting was set for Thursday and Friday.
Even if I was banned, I went ahead and met them and
then returned to the academy secretly. This happened on
many occasions at a time when the officers were trying to
launch the revolution. Those were memorable years.
[words indistinct]
[Question] How did you spend your leave after you
graduated and after you became an army officer, espe-
cially since we know how life was then and that leave was
only rarely granted?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I did not have any ordinary leave after I
graduated in 1965. I grouped all my leave together prior
to the revolution. During those leave periods I was under
arrest or made to repair cars [words indistinct]. We used
to meet only on festivals and anniversaries. After many
months I would meet them for about 5 minutes, on the
occasion of a feast [words indistinct]. We were deprived
of all these things, feasts and our parents, and we could
not have the pleasure of their presence nor could we live
with them. It was a painful time [words indistinct] and
then some people come to...[changes thought]. In any
case it is the revolution, and we are stronger than those
who try to (?achieve something great).
And then, the question of amnesty has a different status.
I have said that a human being who has a good side, if we
[words indistinct]. I am sure that a number of those
people who were reprieved will undergo a complete
transformation and become guards of the revolution and
become [words indistinct]. If it is a matter of treason,
they have paid the price. I was moved when I saw people
who were [word indistinct] and were in good health, and
yet I found them destroyed. I even asked them: Why
have you done this to yourselves? There were those who,
when they came [word indistinct], the first. word to come
to my tongue was: Why have you done this to yourself?
I found him very ...[changes thought] having done to
himself, I mean, weak like this and broken down, and I
nearly failed to recognize him. I was very moved. I did
ARAB AFRICA
not think that people could change in prison in this way.
[Words indistinct] the price of treason. He who has a
good conscience and wants to do something good, now
(?has the chance) to build the Jamahiriyah. He who used
to say freedom to the people; he who used to say
democracy; he who used to say socialism; he who [word
indistinct] things more than Trotskyism, more than
Marxism, more than communism, more than anarchism,
more than [words indistinct].
There is he who wants Arab unity; there is he who wants
a pan-Arab party like the Bath party, and so on and so
forth. [words indistinct] I mean, I kissed Bourguiba's
filthy head because I want Arab unity and [words indis-
tinct]. I kissed AI-Sadat's head and [words indistinct]-
all this because [words indistinct] because Bourguiba or
Al-Sadat's dirty and rotten heads. What are they that I
lay my hands on them, or touch them with my mouth. By
God I kissed them all because of this unity. We eliminate
borders, barriers; we remove them with bulldozers and
[words indistinct]. It will not benefit us. I [words indis-
tinct] with every Arab country. Thus, the Ba'thist and
[words indistinct] something in Iraq and something in
Syria, so what, apart from unity. That is (?an aberration),
even though he is Bath and (?loves) Arab unity and
thinks that we are not unionists. And then there is
another side; there are other people who were wronged. I
do not say that all the people who were in prison, from
those who had the death sentence passed against them to
those who were arrested and interrogated-sure, these
represent the people who were wronged because the
presumption in those periods [words indistinct]. At
times of transformation many innocent people are sac-
rificed. Sure, it is possible that there are people whom we
consider traitors that are not traitors. It is possible that
they did not betray us. It is possible that [words indis-
tinct]. It is possible that there was a wrong name; it is
possible that there were suspicions; it is possible [words
indistinct]. And then the [words indistinct]. We were
with Egypt when we used to say that. At that time those
who used to utter words against Egypt, those who used to
say the Egyptians come [words indistinct] when we open
the borders, it was said [words indistinct] you became
isolated from the Arabs and [words indistinct]. [passage
omitted]
[Interviewer] All right, let us return to the beginnings of
the revolution and the beginnings of your work as a
caller...[Al-Qadhdhafi interrupts with words indistinct
followed by laughter]
[Interviewer continues] Tell us now about the propa-
ganda side. At the time of (?our revolution) did you
speak about the paper in which you drew a picture of the
sun [word indistinct]? Did you issue any revolutionary
newspapers before the revolution, and at what stage?
Was it when you were a student or when you were an
officer?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] There was a newspaper at Sabhah
school. I issued a (?war) newspaper, which I called THE
CHALLENGE to draw the attention of students to its
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name. My intent was to attract revolutionary people and
bring them with me. In Misratah school, as we said, a
newspaper [words indistinct] a (?war) newspaper called
THE SUN. I called it THE SUN because it symbolizes
freedom, and I wrote that the sun shines on everybody.
With regard to publications, when I was an officer, and
also when I was a student, I used to write them with my
own hand-especially when I was an officer-first, so
that the officers to whom I handed the publications
would be reassured, and second, so that' I personally
assumed responsibility. I did not want (?others to
assume responsibility) because responsibility is a serious
matter. How can you when you are an officer? They
might arrest you for carrying out a secret action. This
means a death sentence or life imprisonment, first, and
expulsion from the army. Thus, I wanted to assume the
responsibility personally because I was the one carrying
out this action. I assumed responsibility in case there was
any danger in it, just as is the case now [words indistinct]
Responsibility is still like this. And then, in order to
encourage them and give them confidence, I personally,
an officer, wrote the publications with my own hand and
made copies (?with a stencil duplicator) and distributed
them. This gave them confidence.
[Interviewer] The suffering and pain which you some-
times recall and suffered for long years, you and the
soldiers you organized into the movement of free union-
ists, do you not fear that their goals will now be elimi-
nated due to occasional unconsidered tolerance? And
somehow, some people who are not generous and kind
might appear? Do you not fear for our achievements and
acquisitions as popular masses, which have achieved the
revolution for which you worked hard and made, for its
freedom, its glory, its progress, and its march on its land?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] There is no fear. It is as if the great
slogan put forward now in Libya is: Laissez-faire; laissez-
passer. [Let it go; let it pass.]
[Interviewer] That means: Let it go and let it pass. [words
indistinct]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] That is a famous slogan in a foreign
language, (?known to) all the educated: Let it go; let it
pass. Even so, it does not. mean that the results ensuing
[words indistinct]; let someone exploit the others; let him
strip the others of their freedom. Others have the right to
(?commit injustices). Let them rule over others. And
others have the right to stage a sit-in or strike in protest.
But, here one can only operate without exploiting others.
In fact, one should not fear this. It confirms the new
jamahiri theory, the era of the masses, and the new
socialism. There is no fear for the gains of socialism. One
might think that this is a relinquishing of socialism or of
the revolutionary program. No, no, on the contrary, what
happened before was not an implementation of the
Green Book. I think that what is taking place now is
implementation of the Green Book.
Before, we used to imitate traditional forms taken from
the nationalist regimes-in the Third World in particu-
lar-which had failed. State capitalism has failed; pri-
vate sector capitalism of the superpowers, which are
currently suffering a crisis, has failed. The Third World
used to have' a form of socialism under the shadow of
nationalist rule [word indistinct], but it was stumbling
and did not solve the problem. When its [word indis-
tinct] to capitalism fails once and for all, [word indis-
tinct] state capitalism.
Now, the practical implementation of the Green Book is
taking place. It is the fear of the private supplier, for
example, or this small merchant. Someone would say
that this is commerce and exploitation, and you would
say about commerce what Malik [founder of one of the
four Islamic denominations] said about wine. It is true
that commerce still equals exploitation and profit is
exploitation too, and admitting it is the same as admit-
ting exploitation.
But, what is currently taking place is not at all alarming.
Nor does it lead to (?exploitation). First, the people's
markets exist and will prove their worth in the future.
The merchant being next door, people will understand
the meaning of the voice of the people. The customers
exist; they will be laborers; they will have socialist
interests.
In addition to the people's market there are quality
consumer associations belonging to their founders only.
These do not involve any exploitation. People gather
money, purchase (?goods), put them in a place, and sell
by themselves.
There are markets or stores belonging to public institu-
tions, such as, say, the Jihad Fund, which invests our
money in a market, and the income from this goes to the
Jihad Fund. The Islamic call, for example, founds [sen-
tence unfinished]. The international platform sets up a
market and the income from this market belongs to it.
Any institution sets up a market and the income of that
market belongs to it. This does. not involve any exploi-
tation or any profit. going into some private person's
pocket.
Last, there are the private suppliers, whose number is
limited in every municipality depending on need. This
will naturally be limited as long as those institutions are
beside the private suppliers. External trade is in the
hands of 'society, and so is internal supply. This did, in
fact, solve a bottleneck situation because people used to
stand in line in public markets, which do not cover all
the Jamahiriyah.. The private supplier is everywhere
now. There are no longer any goods which [words
indistinct].
Then, let the Libyans who want workers from Tunisia or
Egypt on their farms [words indistinct]. What matters is
that your effort is not lost. There is no fear. Your effort
is not lost. Even if you set up a cafe-I know that work
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in cafes is nonproductive work; a hairdresser is nonpro-
ductive; a baker is nonproductive. I have mentioned this
so many times. What matters is this: If it is a compulsory
service, it means that the, bakery does not work for
someone else; that the cafe does not work for an owner
who is staying at home. [passage as heard] No, the cafe is
yours and the work is yours. The most important thing is
that you yourself should have the fruits of your efforts.
The producer should be able to consume his product;
you should have the fruits of. any effort which you have
exerted to produce goods or services. This, is the new
socialism because anyone would have the fruits of his
efforts. This is justice and equality.-This is also social-
ism, without a doubt, as here there is no place for
exploitation. Furthermore, the basic people's congresses
have adopted and will adopt bills against exploitation. It
is not possible for someone to rent out a house to
someone else because he would be breaking Law No 4.
Also, if someone with a farm hires a wage earner to
cultivate instead of having a partner, the latter, can
always seek a writ against the. former and his right as
partner should be accorded to him. Thus, if you have a
farm and I join you in order to work with you on- it, I
should be considered as your partner [words indistinct].
Your house should be returned to you.
[Interviewer] It seems to me that within the. framework
of the need for continued coexistence between the old
culture and the new culture of the jamahiri society-as
well as what one can say given that the old culture is still
stronger than the new jamahiri culture-the aforemen-
tioned might lead to an attempt to distort even the
procedural forms which have so far been adopted. How-
ever, your excellency has already stated that what is now
being implemented is a true and correct embodiment of
the Green Book. On the other hand, given the prevailing
cultural situation, this might jeopardize a number of
society's revolutionary orientations, particularly those
related to the transformation of society to a producer
society, from a consumer society to a producer one. We
can see now a frenzied envy of the position of the
individual distributor. It is taking place to the detriment
of the innovations which the Libyan is beginning to show
in various artisan and producer occupations. Many
people are now leaving artisan occupations for services,
particularly the distribution service.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Well, well, I know what you mean. I had
in mind that we set up a producer state and an exemplary
producer society. [words indistinct] so you may now do
whatever you wish in a country in which freedom
prevails. You are free even from exploitation. There-is
no exploitation, no repression, no abuse, no government.
The people govern themselves. Whether the people pro-
duce or. not, I myself had hoped that all of us would go
into production and learn to be craftsmen. I have,
however, found that it is difficult for some. people to
plant, a tree and wait for it at least a full. year [words
indistinct]. Social backwardness is of a subduing nature,
like senility, which is hard. to overcome. It has to go full
cycle. Social backwardness cannot be ended by decree.. It
will -not end with time.
I have already spelled out everything that can help in
creating a producer society; how the family should gain
self-sufficiency from its own garden and not buy any-
thing from the market, and I have even told how the
relevant institutions will furnish the necessary tools to
plant trees and for husbandry. You just have to go to
these institutions for your needs to be met. This pro-
vided new orientation for production at the beginning,
but at .the same time it was accompanied by shortages,
scarcity, lines, propaganda, and people 'who would only
look after their own interest. [words indistinct] [passage
omitted]
[Interviewer] What is the function, in the current situa-
tion, of the movement, the movement of the revolution-
ary committees?
[AI-Qadhdhafi] It has not changed. It is pro-people,
safeguarding their freedom (?so that it becomes) a pop-
ular revolution. We are now more in need of the revolu-
tionary committees than ever before. The need for the
revolutionary'committees is more than ever before. We
even want to prove, as the revolution-which is pro-
freedom-proved to us. We want to prove that the
revolutionary comittees are the allies of the people, that
they are biased toward the people...
[Second. interviewer interrupts] They become allied...
[Al-Qadhdhafi interrupts] They are not, as the people in
prison and the people abroad say, the enemies of the
people, and'the...[changes thought] If there are excesses
like' this, and it is possible that some people may have
been imprisoned and [words indistinct] and they may,
even have died because of this. This is not. revolutionary.
Perhaps this is the first time that this has been said: For
your'information, the revolutionary court sentenced to
death, and the sentence was implemented, a number of
revolutionaries because they damaged the message of the
revolutionary committees. Possibly this is the first time
that such talk has been heard. As far. as we [words
indistinct] revolutionaries, we consider them revolution-
ary, but they deviated in conduct or in ideology, espe-
cially their conduct.
[Interviewer] The movement, the question
movement...
[Al-Qadhdhafi interrupts] Deviated-they deviated,
harmed, tortured; they did...[changes thought] and the rev-
olutionary court sentenced theth ' to physical liquidation.
They were liquidated in accordance with Leaflet No 1.
[Interviewer] Leaflet. No 1?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] It suffices [words indistinct] Leaflet No
1. No one has immunity [words indistinct] at all if he
deviated. The revolutionary does not practice repres-
sion. On the contrary, ?I want to prove that the commit-
tees-the movement of revolutionary committees-are
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14. ARAB AFRICA
lovers of the masses, that they are biased in favor of
freedom and they support my resolutions. They should
now sharpen and prove their presence more than at any
time in the past.
[Interviewer] The revolutionary committees cannot be
biased in favor of tourism abroad. What is their relation-
ship to freedom?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] First, tourism (?internally).. If tourism
were, if tourism were...
[Interviewer interrupts] (?Not internal tourism).
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Oh, abroad, you mean? Libyans go
abroad? Not only [words indistinct]. It is a question of
consciousness, as they say, social consciousness. When
Libyans take their money and go abroad, causing a loss
to their country as a result, and when they should not go
abroad so as to save hard currency they themselves
[word indistinct]. But, if the consciousness of Libyans
has not reached this degree [words indistinct]. The
Central Bank (?does not want) tourism abroad. [laugh-
ter] [Words indistinct] revolutionary committees.
[laughter] But, this is a question of consciousness. [pas-
sage omitted]
[Female interviewer] [Words indistinct] measures of the
people's congresses. [Words indistinct] direct something
to the congresses as regards the process of legalizing what
has happened [words indistinct] the issue of freedom.
[words indistinct]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] [words indistinct] It has been confirmed
that the revolutionary resolutions which I drew up have
become legal [words indistinct], freedom, in a perma-
nent form. It is possible that a document could be drawn
up about this in the era of the masses, which shows
human rights, its sacredness, freedom. We will prove to
the world that it is the revolutionary committees which
defend human rights and that whoever (?parts with)
Libya is not a true revolutionary. Not everyone who
belongs to the revolutionary committees is a revolution-
ary. Not all of these people who are present are neces-
sarily revolutionaries. But, that does not mean that the
philosophy of the revolutionary committees is wrong.
The philosophy is 100 percent correct. The revolutionary
committees movement is like the Free Unionist Officers
movement. I would not have been able to [words indis-
tinct] before 1969 without the committees of free union-
ist officers, which were in every military division. Like
wise, we cannot now continue with the revolutionary
program without a revolutionary committee in every
basic people's congress. It is not possible if somebody
says [words indistinct] revolutionary committees. This is
(?deception). It is not possible. You cannot go ahead
without revolutionary committees. If somebody says
that the revolutionary committees are an assault on
people and are...[changes thought] that is also incorrect.
Never! That is not [words indistinct] an assault ' on
people.
[Interviewer] Leader, the congresses might meet and, for
example, might see it in their interests not to fully obey
your request to completely cancel the death penalty. And
they might consider it in their interest to restrict the
freedom of some people once they, I mean, begin to do a
particular harm to the masses, to their interests, or the
interests of...[changes thought] How did this issue
(?come about)?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Freedom is to the masses. [words indis-
tinct] The first time [words indistinct] it was a long time
ago, some years, when I suggested to the people's [words
indistinct] '
[Interviewer] And they rejected it.
[Ai-Qadhdhafi] I believe in the saying: -Only the Creater
has the power to end life. This saying [words indistinct]
who created life has power to end it. I was disgusted by
the death penalty when I saw the people's congresses
during the month of Ramadan some time ago executing
[words indistinct] with ropes and things. The truth is that
I was disgusted by it. [words indistinct] The method used
by the people's congresses to execute.[words indistinct].
They. had committed crimes and they did, indeed,
deserve to die. But, when I saw how the masses just came
along like that and executed, hanged, somebody with a
rope at a soccer stadium in...[changes thought] I was
indeed disgusted by it and I surely ceased to believe in it.
I am against this penalty. Execution by firing squad-
military style-is more honorable, but it all interferes in
the life...[changes thought]. What I can see for a particu-
lar period, of course, is that. it might not be acceptable to
those who carry arms, those who are under arms and
fighting. The truth is [words indistinct]. It might not be
acceptable that when a soldier runs away or [words
indistinct] he is not executed, according to military laws
[words indistinct]. But, I know there could be some
issues which affect the congresses-conspiracy or clan-
destine activity [words indistinct] U.S. intelligence,
Egyptian intelligence, which is tied to the Israelis. The
penalty for that is death. It is treason. I think that treason
should always carry the death penalty. But he [as, heard]
is against the death penalty.
[Interviewer] Because it is a threat to the life of others; it
damages life- itself, the value.of life per se: But the death
penalty remains necessary when the life of others is
endangered? ,
[Al-Qadhdhafi] By God, I ' do not 'know [words indis-
tinct]. I am suggesting the cancellation of this penalty. I
am against it and disgusted by it and...
[Al-Qadhdhafi] But the congresses are free to decide
what they want. It is not the first time that I have
suggested something that was then rejected by'the peo-
pie's congresses:
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[Female interviewer] Do you not think that an historical
fallacy has begun to reverberate in one way or the other,
that is, the claim that the day of freedom is 3 March?
[Unidentified voice] No, the day of freedom is [words
indistinct).
[Al-Qadhdhafi] [words indistinct] The day of freedom is
1 September 1969. [passage omitted)
[Female interviewer] [words indistinct] March 3, the
historical event of liberating the prisoners and demolish-
ing the prison, as an explosion in the revolution. What
does an explosion in the revolution mean?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] [Laughter] It is a military expression.
[passage omitted] These activating charges mean that
each time one explodes, then another...
[Interviewer interrupts] Is it in order to increase the
speed or increase the force?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes, yes, especially [words indistinct].
This operation is like the operation of the revolution, but
has activating charges one after the other. It is one of the
stages of the escalation of the revolution. This means
that the students' revolution is an explosion; the work-
ers' 1978 is an explosion; the 7 April is an explosion. The
explosion of activating charges in order to escalate the
revolution. What took place on 2 March is [words
indistinct].
[Interviewer] This means that the successive cries for
freedom which you used to make at every stage of the
revolutionary escalation indicated your determination,
and indeed your attachment, to the principles which you
set out to achieve 30 years ago. But, as a person, I still
need many clarifications in order to know what these
political forces are that you pardoned? How did you
know them and what is your knowledge of them? Are
they indeed forces which indeed deserve pardon?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] No, no, they cannot be called forces. The
group which we saw in prison was brought together by
the prison only. At times, they were three people who
conspired together, or two who conspired together, or
one person got ten into trouble, a confused person on his
own. No, they are not political forces categorically: one
who uttered a curse; another who [words indistinct]; one
who wrote [words indistinct]; one who took money from
a party abroad, from a foreign state; one who deserted
from the army. Indeed, one of them was a deserter.
[Interviewer] But there is a group which had conspired
against you personally; conspired to kill?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes, but this is not politics. We do not
consider this a political action. These are not political
forces at all. This is an assassination plot and I pardoned
them, and I am confident that they will not try to kill me.
Even when I came they did not kill me. This is a known
incident [words indistinct]. One had a handgun and he
had several agents who had knives. He told them when
he arrived at [words indistinct] at night: I will shoot him
and you attack the guard accompanying him with knives.
I entered. He had his gun and he [words indistinct]. He
forgot himself and said he did not come on a mission.
[laughs] The matter was discovered and he, an officer,
deserted the army and then he himself came and said: I
(?plotted) and got some people into trouble with me.
Who are those people? He said so and so and so. They
were arrested.
[Interviewer] He voluntarily admitted this?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] He himself did this. Indeed, this is a
trivial matter.
[Interviewer] But Leader, this has never happened in
history. Even if it is compared with the Al-Tulaqa
[citizens of Mecca who remained heathen] incident, I do
not believe it is true. The Prophet, God's peace and
prayers upon him, when he conquered Mecca he par-
doned the people of Quraysh who were hostile to him,
and this happened even when the Al-Fatih Revolution
took place. The royalist regime was not brought to
account. We spoke about Sayf al-Nasr. The period after
the revoution can be considered a stage of the Al-Tulaqa.
None of the men of the royalist era, despite their
misdeeds, whether general ones against the Libyan peo-
ple or, against you personally, were brought to account
for them. They were told: Go, you are free, whether it
was Sayf al-Nasr or others. But this incident did not take
place: A strong revolution decided to free those people. It
is possible that the great majority of them [words indis-
tinct], but the great majority indeed conspired against
the revolution, against the people's authority; conspired
against you personally. This has not come out of a
vacuum. Leader, is it possible for you to explain to the
masses of the people's conference how to prevent a
recurrence of this action. The people will not need
someone to pardon-a free people who have founded the
Jamahiriyah and established the authority of the peo-
ple's conference. How can it prevent people from hatch-
ing plots in this or that manner against them, whether on
their own or in cooperation with the outside, and this is
[word indistinct]?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] The guarantees should be constitution-
ally, confirmed. The Libyan people will sit during the
month of Ramadan and write the guarantees of its
individuals [words indistinct] and incriminate unaccept-
able actions. These include secret actions, the resort to
force, dealing with the outside, treason and plotting, the
exloitation of religion, because some of these newspapers
exploit religion. Religion will be endangered if it
becomes like a football game, with various groups
exploiting it. One group is called Muslim Brothers,
another the Islamic Liberation Front, another Al-Jihad,
another [word indistinct]. Suppose I am a politician. Let
it be said I am a politician and I have a political dogma.
As for religion, no! Religion belongs to all of us. But
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political dogma concerns you alone. You believe in it. As
for religion, and Islam in particular, it concerns us all; do
not play with it. Make it a party and exclude me. And
you, in the name of Islam, can go and make... [incom-
plete sentence as heard] Among the things that should be
banned is the encroachment of religion. He who
encroaches upon religion is a sinner and punishment of
the sinner is stated in the religion. He who employs
religion in politics exploits it, encroaches upon it. Reli-
gion is the dogma of us all and we do not allow anyone to
play with it.
I see freedom as the guarantee because when people
become free, and are certain of it, they become good
people and crimes, even ordinary crimes, disappear. But
this does not mean that all people become angels. I have
said that even `Umar al-Khattab had ruled justly, but
was later killed. Even if 99 percent of the people were
with him, it was still possible for the 1 percent to kill.
They killed `Uthman; they called Ghandi; they killed
Robespierre; killed Danton; killed [word indistinct].
Those were all [words indistinct] important killed. Christ
[words indistinct]. There was no one more prominent
than these people. They were all messengers.
Evil exists. It is in conflict with good. We are not so naive
as to say that evil no longer exists. But, because of this we
should clarify the acts of evil and that the one who
commits them is evil, and what punishment the jamahiri
society will impose on him. Each one can be responsible
for his own actions. If we catch someone tomorrow we
apply this punishment to him. We gave you freedom and
we said: This is an evil action. You committed it, thus
you are an evil person. We said: This is an evil action.
You committed it, thus you are an evil person and this is
your punishment. Go and appeal to any court and say
this man committed an evil action. Everyone is free to
defend himself. It was not confirmed that he had com-
mitted an evil act. We incriminated him and he seems
evil. So, what is the punishment for this evil man? What
is the punishment for this traitor? Because we said: This
is treason, and the one who commits it becomes a traitor.
What is the punishment for the traitor? It is so and so.
That is it [word indistinct] one is free afterwards. This is
like hell and paradise. You can take this path or you can
take the other path.
Take any political action, what does it mean now? It is
meaningless. One takes authority from the people. Well,
the people decide on the punishment of whoever tries to
steal authority from them. As for the previous attempts,
I considered them to be attempts to steal the revolution.
As I have told you, I built the revolution brick by brick,
with sweat, sleepless nights, study, tears, and suffering,
and consequently I pardoned those who tried to steal it
because it is now no longer in danger of being stolen. It
has now become the people's authority, the Jamahiriyah.
He who steals it now steals the Jamahiriyah, steals the
authority of the people, and this has now become the
responsibility of the people. He who steals the people's
authority steals the Jamahiriyah. The people will decide
his punishment and will decide the way he should be
arrested and the way he should be treated. But, today we
consider the past and the people I freed are my personal
responsibility. I felt they had tried to steal my effort, to
steal the work which I and my colleagues did without the
Libyan people knowing about it. And they themselves
did not know about it. Some were in the United States,
others were in Egypt, some of them were [words indis-
tinct], some were drinking alcohol, some of them used to
sing, some did not know and hoped that the monarchy
would continue. They spent the nights with the Ameri-
cans, with the Italians, while we were working for the
expulsion of the Italians, the Americans, the English; the
end of arbitrary rule; the elimination of the monarchy;
the restoration of the oil to the Libyans; raising the price
of oil from $1 to $40; to build homes, farms, schools,
hospitals; and to allow the people to carry arms.
This is the revolutionary program, the result of the
revolution about which I spoke. When the rain fell on me
in the back of the vehicle, when I used to fall asleep while
driving and the vehicle would overturn in a ditch, when
they brought the arrest warrant for me without my
knowing of this, when I was deprived of my family and
they were deprived of me. And instead of spending the
holiday with them, I used to go and plan the revolution,
organize cells, and write the leaflets with my own
hands-actions which lead to execution. All of this
suffering was for the sake of the revolution, which has
achieved the revolutionary program. And we feel those
people tried to steal this action on which I used to work
day and night. And none of the Libyans were aware of it.
Even those people were not aware of it. Subsequently, I
pardoned them because they tried to steal my effort and
I was able to defeat them, thanks to God. They were
sentenced to death or life imprisonment. They paid the
price of treason. I was sorry that they had wronged me,
wronged themselves. They even wronged Libya.
Now we have corrected this as though nothing had
happened. A new page was turned as far as I am
concerned. You were on the verge of falling into the fire,
but God has saved you from it. I consider them to be
born again, and, in fact, they have recognized this and
have said: We are born again. I consider them to be
newly born. And I consider them to be close to me and I
know that if I give weapons, by God, to all those I freed,
it is still possible for a person not among them to
assassinate me. Even to those who want to assassinate
me, I am willing to give weapons and [words indistinct].
I would have liked to give them arms and live ammuni-
tion on the day I freed them from prison and walked in
their midst.
[Interviewer] What is the source of this confidence?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I am confident of myself, confident of
the measures I have taken, and I am confident that if you
reach the positive side of man, he becomes a great man.
But sometimes, authority, the individual, and circum-
stances destroy the positive side of man and encourage
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the negative side. Man is pushed sometimes. Man can be
deceived or misled. Many of them were misled. By God,
many of them were misled. [passage omitted]
[Interviewer] Leader, during preparations for the revo-
lution, before the Great Al-Fatih, did you contact any of
those who later tried to usurp the revolution and try to
draw up a program with them?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Of course, earlier I gave for you three
examples of people. One category is those who were
arrested after the revolution and because I knew them I
freed them and told them: Go, you are free. This
concerns a group of officers. Regrettably, they plotted
again afterwards and I recently freed them for the second
time. I would like to say to you: Did I not release so and
so after the revolution while you were in prison? He was
arrested after the revolution, one of the officers who were
arrested. And I heard of this after a period and freed
them and told them: Go, you are free; consider your-
selves with us in the revolution. You were with me at
Gar Yunis. After a period of time they plotted again and
they are still paying the price of that conspiracy. Now, I
have freed them for a second time so that [words
indistinct].
Another category is of one who knew me before the
revolution-how I used to plan and what I did when the
Libyan people were not aware of what I was doing-
although he was not with me in the movement and I was
not with him. But we talked and I proposed to him what
he planned to do, what I was planning. But he did not
join me for political reasons, which concern him alone.
Another category is he who took part in the revolution,
but had prior knowledge of this historic action only from
[words indistinct] between [words indistinct) September
1969. And perhaps he did something against the revolu-
tion, but he says: This story from 1959 to 1969, all this
suffering, this rain, this torture, the sleepless nights,
[words indistinct]-I did not know of this and indeed it
seems that I was trying to steal something very serious to
which, perhaps, I have no right. [words indistinct] And
how he was trusted and how he then failed himself and
failed us. Maybe you could add something we do not
know. I recall when I got in touch with you in 1967. 1 do
not know who introduced you to me.
[Interviewer] Dr Madani.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Which Madani? Madani Siddiq?
[Interviewer] Yes.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I see, Madani Siddiq. Did you come to
see me or did I go to see you?
[Interviewer] Do you want me to remind you?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes, please remind me: I remember I
was in your car and I drove you out of the barracks at
Gar Yunis, and we sat. It was a stormy day.
[Interviewer] Dr Madani arranged the meeting. It was
the first meeting which you attended at the Damascus
Cafe. Then I waited for you at the cafe and the doctor
came and told me that you were not coming because I
believe there was a state of alert at the barracks. He also
said: Brother Mu'ammar will meet you behind the wall
of the barracks. He gave me the description of the car
and its registration number. That is how I met you. I sat
next to you in the car and you took me on a ride.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I remember what I told you then. I told
you: I know that you are a member of a party and the
issue is not about the party and it has nothing to do with
what I am going to ask from you. Where you work is not
my concern either. I told you: If there are youths with
you, bring them along and we will train them because we,
as military people, would like to carry out operations
against the British troops in Banghazi, at a barracks
called [name indistinct] and at another barracks called
[name indistinct]. These were all British barracks. So I
told you: If you have youths in your group, bring them to
us and let us train them in the use of weapons, and we
military people will be behind them to prepare them to
carry out operations against the British forces. I told you:
I see no objection in receiving support from a political
group, but this talk had nothing to do with a party.
[words indistinct]
I will tell you my side of the story and what I know of the
(?operations). I was later informed by (Muhammad
al-Tabu) [words indistinct]. I told them that there was a
lieutenant and would you please take him in [words
indistinct]. The person who was carrying the note you
had written was searched on the road between Sabhah
and Juhrah. When he saw that the cars in front were
being searched he tore up the paper. [words indistinct]
[Interviewer] I would like to briefly add something. In
reality we were not organized. We were individuals and,
though we knew one another, there were no links
between us. The party was in..a state of disintegration.
The organization which existed had dwindled for a
number of reasons, one of which was the fact that some
of those who were in the party. leadership undertook
liberal professions and gave up their jobs when the oil
wealth arrived. [words indistinct] Of course I was not in
that group, but I was still an employee.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] No, there were people like Sharaf al-Din
and the man who-was under secretary at the Oil Minis-
try. What was his name? [words indistinct] One was
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made under secretary at the Oil Ministry and another
was under secretary at the Housing Ministry. Yes, it was
at the time of the monarchy in 1967. It was. a Ba'thist
party group.
[Interviewer] I did write, but Dr Madani had given me a
clear idea about you. Among the things he told me was
the fact that you were indeed organizing something.
Once he visited me at the radio station in March, as I
remember, and I explored the radio station at Banghazi..
Even after the outbreak of the revolution, he was still in
Banghazi and he told me that the banner of this revo-
luion was brother so,and so. In other words, I had prior
knowledge of you and your activities and so on. In fact,
on our part at least, we were ' very anxious not to
implicate you in anything so as not to put you in any
danger.
We were under suspicion and the intelligence service, in
small numbers, was concentrating on some people and
was following their activities. We did not want our
connection with you to put you in any danger from the
security forces of the monarchy. When I said that so and
so got in touch and he wants such and such, I was all in
favor of the idea. But you were transferred to Tripoli and
this is what essentially broke the link between you and
me.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes, it is true what he says. Yes, they
transferred me to Tripoli and they contained me, and
consequently the program failed. .
[Interviewer] But I was personally enthusiastic about the
whole thing because you said: We military people are
prepared to supply you with the ammunition and weap-
ons and to train you in order to carry out operations
against British barracks.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes, I was a second lieutenant.
[Interviewer] And I even opposed the stand of the
monarchy then with regard to the aggression.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Indeed. Musa was a Lieutenant Colonel
and I was a second lieutenant, and officers of the
Military Academy were training me.
We planned to execute the revolution in March 1969,
but this was postponed, as you know. After the postpone-
ment of the revolution, I became more daring and began
to speak to other ranks, to get them to join the revolu-
tion, expecting good from them. Among those from
whom I expected good was brother Musa. I knew him at
college; he was an officer and trained us. I knew his
inclinations in general, despite the great difference in
rank between him and myself: lieutenant and lieutenant
colonel. I went to him and spoke to him. I do not know
whether the meeting took place in Susah or at [words
indistinct]. We had lunch with him at home. Indeed, he
told me: Despite the fact that. I am a lieutenant colonel,.
since you are in this I am with you. He feared the late
Muhammad [name indistinct] and said: He is related to
[words indistinct]. Then I said to him: No, this brother is
a revolutionary officer and he is with us. I remember he
said: The world is fine [words indistinct].
Then I contacted him again in Al-Marj, until one day I
told him that we had an important meeting in Tripoli
and after we finished it, I would come to him and tell
him about it. They put him in the' compulsory service
committees at Al-Bayda. I came to him on Friday,
together with Mustapha . al-Kharrubi, at his home at
Al-Bayda and he said: Did the meeting take place? I said
to him: We met. What happened, he asked? I told him:
We decided on the revolution. He thought that the
matter was in its beginning stages and that the revolution
would take place in 5 years or so. But the revolution was
scheduled for the day after, Sunday. Indeed, Brother
Musa was surprised. He said: How come? I said: This
action was planned. years ago, 10 years ago, and we
planned to stage the revolution last March. [words indis-
tinct] He said: Is it certain that the revolution will take
place? What is your, strength? I told him: We have
committees in all units and we have total control of the
enemy. There is nothing to fear. Be assured that we will
carry it out. He was touched and [words indistinct].
We are talking as an introduction to the emergency
meeting of the basic people's conferences in order to
confirm the revolutionary decisions which I took, to
make them permanent, to safeguard freedom and con-
firm it, so that people will no longer fear for themselves
and [word indistinct]. So that the people themselves will
decide on the criminality of these actions. Why should
the revolutionary committees incriminate people? Why
should so and so incriminate people; or the army incrim-
inate people; or intelligence incriminate people? The
people should decide if this is treason, if this is a crime,
if this is so and so, and the punishment for this is so and
so. That is it. Decide who should follow it up and its legal
procedures so that the people may feel assured. [words
indistinct]
Another category was all the people who did nothing. We
used to struggle against British imperialism, American
imperialism, even before the revolution. We used to
carry out operations of this nature, and Brother (Farid
Ashrafah) is a witness. [words indistinct] Brother Musa
used to be a very senior officer in the army with the rank
of lieutenant colonel. He entered the action with us
toward the end, but he had no knowledge that the story
began in 1959, or of our suffering [words indistinct] and
how people thought of usurping this action; how they
tried to jump on the bandwagon of the revolution. I do
not know how some tripped and how things happened.
Some people harmed themselves, harmed their health,
their age, their families. They left nothing positive. They
left pain for us and for themselves. Indeed, anyone who
did anything after the revolution in order to usurp it or
harm it, left nothing positive at all but suffering for
himself, for us, and for his relatives. He obstructed
himself and was destroyed in prison. What positive
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action is there in conspiring against the revolution?
[Word indistinct] there are three types of people, each
type different from the other. However, they are useful
as far as [word indistinct] we are concerned; we who are
talking about them. If you were not present it is possible
that some people would say there was no one who was
released from prison, and then conspire against those
who freed them [words indistinct] I recall Azuz, Husayn,
Saddiq, Makki, and those who were with them. I released
them from prison. They were under detention and- I
freed them. And I told them [word indistinct] with this
same expression and afterwards they conspired [words
indistinct]. (?If you were not present) some people might
say there were not such things, that there was not such a
background or story.
[At this point Al-Qadhdhafi apparently addresses some-
body who presumably participated in the revolution] Do
you not recall anything? Do you not recall when we came
to you [word indistinct], Mustafa and me?
[Unidentified person] Is it the Mustafa who killed Khar-
rubi just a day before the revolution?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Yes.
[Unidentified person] Because it was only the day before
the revolution that you informed us of the movement.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] That is what I was talking about.
[Unidentified person] When you talked to me after 28
March, you talked about who was in the group of 28
March. I asked you: What is the reason, because (?there
must be) some people with you who are not serious or
not this or not that? I remember you told me: Even if
there were two people and we are [words indistinct].
Naturally, at that time I had confirmation that the
operation was not easy. One might [words indistinct]. He
told me: No, there are these two whom we have dis-
carded and that. is it. I continued with them. [words
indistinct] Several meetings in fact. However, in 1969, I
do not know anything before that. Even if I was in some
organizations, they were failed organizations. Previously
[words indistinct]. However, the movement, [words
indistinct] in reality and I went along with them and
played a modest role. When you found me in (Sousse) I
told you [words indistinct]. This is the whole reality. I do
not claim that [words indistinct] never. This is the
reality.
[Unidentified speaker] Leader, I have a simple comment
to make here. I was hoping that you would be our
president or our secretary when you fully believed in the
ideas of the Bath Party. It does not matter if I say that to
you now. [laughter] I hoped that you would personally
lead us, despite the fact that I was in another organiza-
tion. I hoped that a person with dynamism, with creative
thinking, with all the (things) which you enjoy, would
lead this organization-not only at the Libyan level, but
even at the pan-Arab level because several members of
the Bath Party that I knew, young honest people, most
of them making sacrifices, whether they were in Jordan
or Iraq, during the days of...[sentence unfinished as
heard] Afterward,. the deviation or the mistake which
occured was a clash with the late Jamal `Abd al-Nasir in
reality. I tell you the truth. You might be surprised
[words indistinct]. When we were .working we were
not...[unfinished sentence as heard]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Has anybody else got anything to say?
[Female interviewer] On the occasion of the presence
now of Brother [name indistinct] and Brother Musa, let
us recall what took place on 3 March and ask: Was there
anything which had an effect on you the day the prison-
ers were freed, especially since there were among them
people with whom you had some link? [laughter from
Al-Qadhdhafi]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I cried just like others when I heard. And
as much as I suffered, that suffering that I told you about,
my will power was affected when I was a student [words
indistinct]. This standpoint had an effect on me. I
remember really that the song had an effect on me.
[sentence as heard] Whenever I read the words of this
song I feel tears coming to my eyes.
One of the prisoners, Musa, in fact-when he left prison
he came to the tractor and came to greet me. This had an
effect on me as I did not recognize him because his face
had changed. I was very touched. I had expected to see
him just as I knew him before. When Abdallah told me
this is Musa, -I was really very touched. I was very
moved, in fact, and I embraced him. [passage omitted]
[Interviewer] [words indistinct] Sorry for-bothering you.
We have bothered you a little.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] No, no, you are welcome, and all the
best. [words indistinct]
Sudan
SPLA Criticizes Government on Famine Relief
LD0300191800 (Clandestine) Radio of the Sudanese
People's Liberation Army in English 1300 GMT 3 May 88
[Excerpts] The Sudan is virtually daily in the world
major news media. The reason is that most of the news
items are bad ones; namely, war and its attendants-
death, political instability, the economy at the brink of
total collapse, and wooing of the country by foreign
countries in the Arab world.
These misfortunes afflicting our country and its people,
as expected, constitute the stock in trade of journalism.
No doubt these problems are real and immense in
magnitude and cause suffering to human beings, mostly
innocent ones. .
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However, one of the most outstanding tragedies facing
our country is the plight of the citizens fleeing from
famine caused by drought and death and death from the
Khartoum government-sponsored tribal militia.
In the face of these serious calamities, the able-bodied
citizens trekked to safety in places to find shelter and
food outside their country. The last 3 years have wit-
nessed an unusual exodus of the people from the south-
ern Sudan to the western part of Ethiopia where the
UNHCR and other humanitarian organizations have
tried to minimize the suffering of these innocent citizens
of the world.
Certainly, there is abundance of good will on the side of
some countries' nongovernmental organizations and indi-
viduals, but there are serious obstacles to grapple with.
The influx of the refugees is on the increase and there is
no sign of decline in sight since the solution will come
when the root causes, specially war, are satisfactorily
removed. [passage omitted]
How could the suffering of these people be mitigated? In
nearly every human activity there is direct or indirect
involvement in politics. While accusations and counte-
raccusations from the warring parties are difficult to
avoid, countries' nongovernmental organizations of
goodwill are asked to come to the rescue of these
unfortunate Sudanese.
As far as SPLM-SPLA is concerned about this issue to
help the famine victims is clear [as heard]: channel relief
items to the needy through those in concerned areas.
For instance, relief supplies donated to the victims in areas
controlled by the SPLA should be channeled through the
SRRA-Sudan Relief and Rehabilitation Association-
while the starving in towns under the Khartoum govern-
ment could pass through government agencies, provided
that coordination is carried out between concerned bodies
prior to the ferrying of relief items.
The reason is purely the security of the personnel conduct-
ing relief operations. The movement is also willing to permit
independent bodies to check that the relief supplies so
donated do not go to any of the warring Sudanese Army. If
the issue is approached realistically, then it is not as very
complicated as some are tempted to think.
It is only Khartoum which has turned this tragedy into a
political instrument. The argument that by sending food,
clothing, and medicines to the needy in SPLA-held areas
would morally strengthen the movement is understandable.
The SPLM-SPLA does not trade on human misery, other-
wise it would refuse granting permission to the delivery of
food to the starving in the government-held towns.
ARAB AFRICA
The government is aware of the fact that the policy of
starving the citizens under government-controlled towns
is a wrong weapon. It is Khartoum which stands accused
for obstructing the effort of relief agencies which intend
to supply the people under the SPLA-controlled areas.
Khartoum's insistence on sovereignty is another way of
saying: talking with the rebels even to save the lives of
the people will diminish national sovereignty. It is a
fallacious argument. It is the very starving people who
are suffering.
Government Troops Kill 21 `Outlaws' in Clash
EA0305194588 Omdurman National Unity Radio
in Arabic 1400 GMT 3 May 88
[Text] A large number of outlaws infiltrated into the
Khawr al-Dhahab region of the Qaysan rural area last
week. They clashed with a unit of the Armed Forces,
which inflicted heavy losses on them.
Twenty-one outlaws were killed and 4 were captured.
Many of the outlaws were wounded. It is known that the
outlaws infiltrate to carry out armed robberies on the
property of innocent citizens in the area.
200 Rebels Killed Near Waw
JN041205 Khartoum SUNA in Arabic 1059 GMT
4 May 88
[Text] Khartoum, 4 May (SUNA)-More than 200
rebels were killed recently by the Armed Forces when the
outlaws attacked an Armed Forces convoy on its way to
Tonj, 18 km south of Waw. Twenty members of the
Armed Forces, including a major, were martyred.
Citing unidentified sources, AL-AYYAM today reports
that the Armed Forces convoy was proceeding toward
Tonj with supplies for troops stationed in the area. They
were suddenly attacked by a full battalion of outlaws that
intercepted them.
The sources added that the Armed Forces inflicted heavy
losses on the outlaws and compelled them to flee leaving
behind 200 dead.
AL-AYYAM reports that the supply and food situation
in Juba, Equatoria Province, has become bad and that
minor skirmishes and looting have broken out on the
city's outskirts.
Authorities Investigate `Terrorist' Group
JN041205 Khartoum SUNA in Arabic 1030 GMT
4 May 88
[Text] Khartoum, 4 May (SUNA)-In accordance with
information from leaders in the Islamic National Front
[NIF],' the security authorities began investigations yester-
day, Tuesday, of four Arab citizens with Syrian passports.
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