AL-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED ON RELATIONS WITH EGYPT

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400053-3
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 1, 2012
• Sequence Number: 53
• Publication Date: August 7, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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v. Is Aug 85 NORTH AFRICA
LIBYA G T~ 1 '
AI-Qad6dhafi Interviewed on Relations With Egypt
PM/413/0 Cairo AL-AHALI in Arabic 7 Aug 8S pp 6, 7 ,,,
breathing outlet for the Zionist enemy. It has given the enemy a
breather which has enabled him to concentrate all his efforts on
the northern front. This has encouraged him to try to destroy
Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians, after which he will turn on
Egypt once again in order to capture Sinai and the Nile. divide
b r`'~ Egypt into a Coptic state and an Islamic state, and divide each
[Interview with leader Mu`ammar al ad~~y Faridah of those into ministates. All these are well-known plans and not
al-Nagqash, Sa'd Zughlul Fu`ad, `Abd al `Azim Munaf, and a secret;' it is the plan known as the balkanization of the Arab
Salah `Isa in a "bedouin tent" in a Benghazi suburb -date not homeland and its aim is to settle,3 million Jews during the first
given]
stage, increasing to 24 million at a later stage and then to 100
[Text] Al-Nagqash: Before we begin the dialogue we would like,
Mr Colonel, to convey to you a complaint by Egyptians working
in Libya regarding the manner in which the decision to terminate
their work contracts .in Libya is being implemented. We are
confident that the political decision was not meant to be like this,
yet it is being implemented in a manner that will leave deep scars
and unpleasant memories among the Egyptian people. This is
despite the fact that we are confident of the goodness of the
Libyan people and their goodwill generally.
AI-Qadhdhafi: I was informed of this today and I will follow up
the matter personally.
Fu`ad: I have walked about in Tripoli harbor among the Egyp-
tiansawaiting departure and I have found that they are suffering
severely from the measures that are being taken. They have no
objection to the decision but are surprised that things should go
as far as confiscating a refrigerator or washing machine or even
stopping them from leaving if they are in possession of a flatiron.
Fu`ad: They do exist. But these people bought these goods with
their toil and sweat. They will add no significant income to the
Jamahiriyah's revenues. The problem is the manner in which
they are being seen off, which suggests a deliberate wish to hurt.
Munaf: Mr Colonel, we would have liked to leave discussion of
this matter until after this interview, but having broached it we
might as well carry on. This represents a new problem between
the two peoples. Disturbances occurred in 1977 between the
people in Libya and Egypt with which the Egyptian people had
nothing to do. During that time not a single Egyptian in the
Jamahiriyah suffered. Why should this happen now, when we are
celebrating the anniversary of the 23 July revolution, the mother
of Arab revolution. We realize that there are differences between
governments, but unfortunately these differences have begun to
affect the relations between peoples.
AI-Qadhdhafi: First of all we are not a government. We have
no government (!). There is no dispute between us and Egypt
either regarding borders or regarding territorial waters. What is
between us is not like what is between the ruling regimes in Syria
and Iraq. Our quarrel with Egypt is only for one reason, namely
the "national problem"; we are not alone in quarreling with it.
There is a quarrel between the Arab nation in general and
Egyptian policy, which is based on recognition of the enemy. We
believe that this policy should be toppled; it should be contained
in every possible way and liquidated so that we can solve the
national problem, particularly since Egypt has become a
million, to be brought in from all parts of the world in order to
settle in Sinai, the Negev, the West Bank, and Lebanon. This will
be a new nation that will rise up on the remains of the Arab
nation. It was the Camp David policy that opened the door to this.
Al-Nagqash: But what about the measures that are being taken
against the Egyptian people, Mr Colonel?
AI-Qadhdhafi: They are responsible for changing their govern-
ment's policy with their own will. The Arab nation's future is in
doubt. Israel has become capable of manufacturing atom bombs;
nuclear missiles are now deployed in the Negev and the Golan.
All the Western states agree that Israel should be a nuclear
power; there is no end to the tricks they play toward attaining
this end. Every other day they announce that nuclear waste has
been smuggled to Israel or an American scientist has smuggled
equipment to it for the nuclear industry. Our destiny is in danger.
I recall that once `Abd al-Nash said: If we become certain that
Israel possesses an atomic bomb we will attack the enemy bases
and we will enlist 4 million soldiers. Now that this danger has
become real we must march now in order to eliminate this danger
because it is a threat not only to our aspirations but also to our
very existence.
They destroyed the Iraqi reactor because it was contrary to
Israel's security. Well, the existence of Israel itself is contrary to
the Arab nation's security and therefore it deserves to be
destroyed because it represents some kind of a "veto" on our
future, our strength, and our very existence. They now have a
free hand in the area because the Egyptian policy has allowed
them this. Egypt has been turned into a bridge which they cross
in order to carry out their plans. Even the Israeli chief of staff
came as fai as the Libyan border and inspected the Egyptian
bases on your territory. The United States deploys its B-52
bombers in the western desert, which is a Libyan or Arab desert.
If Egypt wants to give it to the United States, let us take it. All
this is happening while the Egyptian people are silent.
AI-Naggasl: The Egyptian people are not supposed to pay for
the mistakes of the government. The movement by a people to
change a policy or rebel against it depends on objective cir-
cumstances. Every revolution has its own circumstances and its
own rules.
AI-Qadhdhafi: These are very ancient marxist justifications
that are no longer valid.
`Isa: Mr Colonel, there are specific reports on the nature of the
situation on the Libyan-Egyptian borders. You have announced
that there are military concentrations while Egyptian officials
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have denied this. What exactly are the reports you have and how
did you ascertain them?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We are not interested in this subject, we have
no army on the Egyptian border, we have no buildup, and we will
not declare a war, but we are certain that Egypt is concentrating
its forces on our borders. I have seen this with my own eyes and
through aerial, naval, and electronic reconnaissance. They are
mining the desert, deploying tanks, and stockpiling ammunition.
There are three new military airfields that have recently been
built on our borders. These are the Habbatah, AI-Barrani, and
AI-Sallum airfields, which have been built with the Egyptian
people's money and at the expense of their livelihood. Why don't
you build airports in Alexandria, or Port Said, or even Suhaj
instead of building military bases on our borders?
`Isa: Would you allow some frank talk? Egyptian officials say
that they are afraid that Libya will carry out terrorist actions
inside Egypt. Last year they accused you of mining the Red Sea.
We appreciate your views regarding the Camp David situation,
but what do you have to say regarding the accusations that you
are preparing for terrorist actions inside Egypt?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Who can convince Egypt that this is not true?
the United States is lying and Egypt is repeating its lies. The
Israelis lie and the Egyptian Government and the world repeat
these lies. Do we have the capabilities to mine the Red Sea? It is
conceivable that the United States mined it. Why should we be
blamed for what the United States did? Moreover, the Red Sea
is not an Egyptian sea. It is logical for Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia,
or the PDRY to complain. What has this got to do with Egypt?
`Isa: It is said that you aim to strike at the Suez Canal and the
gulf.
AI-Qadhdhafi: We would have mined the Suez Canal. More-
over, the gulf is now under Israeli control. In addition to Tabah
Israel has taken 18 new border posts. We had no information on
this before. The problem with Israel has thus become one of
boundaries and not of existence. They now talk about Tabah and
forget about the problem of Palestine; they have forgotten that
this is our country. Did you come here in order to discuss with
me the choice between one kind of treason and another?
`Isa: Mr Colonel, we are journalists who have come to ask you
questions and to obtain clarifications from you. Political discus-
sion issomething different and is not part of our role and our task.
AI-Qadhdhafi: You are politicians representing popular forces.
You must halt this total collapse toward which Egypt is leading
the Arab nation. If you do so then the nation can.
Fu`ad: Should we reopen the door to further exacerbation of
the situation and open the door to estrangement between the
Egyptian and Arab peoples?
AI-Nagqash: Is there, Mr Colonel, actually a decision to ter-
minate the work contracts of Egyptians in Libya?
AI-Qadhdhafi: If the egyptians working in Libya support the
Egyptian regime via the hard currency they remit, then it means
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that they are indirectly helping Israel. For this reason they must
be sent away.
Al-Nagqash: Is it of any benefit to replace Egyptian workers
and Arab workers in general by workers from Ghana, Korea, and
the Philippines?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The decision to terminate the contracts of for-
eign workers in Libya is general and does not concern the
Egyptian workers in particular. Since you are journalists and you
are now in Libya you might as well look for the truth yourselves.
Go and see those who are being sent away. Are they only
Egyptians or are they all the foreign workers in Libya?
Al-Nagqash: The majority of those being sent away, Mr Colo-
nel, are Egyptians.
AI-Qadhdhafi: The majority of the workers in Libya are Egyp-
tians. Instead of saying thank you, you are saying "God's curse
be upon you" because the majority of those working in Libya are
Egyptians. We Arabs are accustomed to ungratefulness.
(Several voices) No, Mr Colonel.
Al-Nagqash: We are not saying this. What we are saying that
the Egyptians have contributed to the development plan in the
Jamahiriyah. This is beneficial for the future of all the Arab
nation and not just the future of the Egyptians.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, we do not deny this. They have been
working with us for 16 years. I was the one who brought the
Egyptians to Libya and I have asked for unity with Egypt more
than once.
(Adding bitterly) But you responded to us with rejection and
refusal.
Munaf: With your permission, we do not wish this point to take
up all our time. Yet we have heard that contacts are taking place
between you and Egypt and that an envoy from the Jamahiriyah
visited early this month in order to mediate. What progress has
been made in these contacts?
AI-Qadhdhafi: There are no official contacts. All meetings of
this kind are carried out by individuals on their own responsibility
as such.
Munaf: But brother Ahmad al-Qadhdhafi al-Datum was
recently in Cairo.
AI-Qadhdhafi: He is a junior officer; he has no powers or
function. He has been a friend of the Egyptians since he studied
at an Egyptian college. If anybody in Egypt summoned him -
a friend of someody like Ashraf Marwan - he would go off on
his own and might bring back messages. I personally have no.
contact with Egyptian officials.
Munaf: Is not the objective to ease tension between the two
countries and to clear up whatever mars the relations between
them?
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AI-Qadhdhafi: Our view of Egyptian policy is well known; we
accept no dealings with it in its present condition.
AI-Nagqash: Is there any connection between the present ten-
sion in relations between the two countries and what happened
in Sudan?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Of course. The Egyptian policy did not wish
Sudan to be liberated. It wanted and still wants to impose
trusteeship on it. What happened in Sudan was a blow to this
policy in the eyes of the Arabs and in the eyes of the world. It
was a blow to the Americans as well. And so Egyptian policy lost
its nerve and began launching a mad campaign against Libya. It
was openly said that Al-Qadhdhafi was behind the revolution in
Sudan. This is an insult to the Sudanese people who staged the
revolt. It is true that I incited revolution against the Numayri
regime, but it was the Sudanese people who carried out the
revolution. Furthermore, Egyptian policy is afraid that the fever
of revolution, in its various forms, such as civil disobedience, will
spread to Egypt. Actually, I do advocate this, which you may not
like because, obviously, you have come here to defend the regime
that rules you. (Loud Egyptian laughter reverberates in the tent.)
I will not stop doing so until the Egyptian policy changes and
Egypt turns away from AI-Sadat's policy and withdraws its
recognition of Israel. We will then give you everything -oil and
weapons. You can even take Libya. Come and rule us. As for
Israel and the United States ruling us, no.
`Isa: What is the state of relations now between the Jama-
hiriyah and Sudan following the uprising?
AI-Nagqash: On what level -economic, political, military?
AI-Qadhdhafi: On all levels. We give aid to the Sudanese
people. Trucks cross daily to Sudan carrying supplies there.
There is now a major shipment of plows in order to help the
Sudanese till the land after the rain has fallen. They say that we
export terror. Is it terror that we are exporting with plows, food
supplies, and seeds in order to rescue thousands of Sudanese
children from hunger?
AI-Nagqash: Is it true that you have been helping the rebels in
southern Sudan?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Of course. Before the downfall of Numayri we
supported the revolution against him. All the arms with which
they fought in the south were ours; we trained all the fighting
units, but we have stopped this since 6 April. We are now bringing
pressure on the people in the south to get them to stop the war
and accept negotiations with the new regime in Sudan. We are
against the continuation of the war since the uprising.
Munaf: Does the Jamahiriyah, Mr Colonel, insist on Sudan
applying the jamahiriyah system applied in your country?
AI-Qadhdhafi: It is not our business. Sudan is free to choose
whatever regime it likes, even if it chooses to be an empire,
although the jamahiriyah system is the inevitable future system
for all world communities and all countries will become jamahir-
iyahs in the future. The broadening of the base of opposition and
of the base participating in power will stop at the point when all
the people are in power. This is the jamahiriyah, that is, the state
of the masses. The establishment of jamahiriyahs in the world is
inevitable and is confirmed by the current conflict. It is con-
firmed even by the multiplicity of parties, which is a sign of
greater awareness by the people and of their desire to give their
views on the authority that rules them and to determine their
future. The conflict will not stop until all the people participate
in power:
Al-Nagqash: You have concluded an agreement with King
Hassan II. This is despite the well-known fact that he played a
major role in paving the way for Al-Sadat's trip to Jerusalem.
We understand the necessities of politics, but how can this be
reconcilers with such a revolutionary stand?
Al-Qadhdhafl: I agree with what you say but, regardless of all
this, King Hassan came and said that he was in favor of unity
and extended his hand to us, saying he wants unity with us. So I
cannot refuse his request. I consider unity between two opposed
regimes -Jamahiriyah and monarchy -and between two
opposed persons -King Hassan and myself - as a historical
solution to a problem. Previously we made it a condition that
unity be between similar regimes, but now it is possible to
establish unity between opposed regimes. This step has encour-
aged me to submit my plan for Arab unity between all Arab
regimes, however contradictory they may be. The plan is based
on fighting the dangers threatening the Arab nation -the
emergence of the state instead of the nation and the emergence
of several nations instead of one single nation. Moreover, the
occurrence of social revolutions in the world around us even
before the' Arabs could achieve national unity has complicated
the problem of our unity. This was what led me to call for the
unity of all. opposites, a unity that will be the Noah's ark that will
rescue the nation and take it to the shore of safety. Once we reach
this shore, then let the natural conflict between the wolf and the
sheep, and the donkey and the hyena brought together in Noah's
ark, or the unity of opposites, begin.
`Isa: Did you submit this unity plan to Egypt?
Al-Qadhdhafi: It will be submitted to it but this has not hap-
pened yet.
Turning toward `Umar al-Hamdi, secretary general of the Gen-
eral People's Congress, who was attending the meeting,
AI-Qadhdhafi said: Please remind me, `Umar, to ask the brothers .
what happened to the message sent to the Egyptian president
because it should be different from all the messages addressed to
the others. We will tell him: You cannot join the federation so
long as Egypt recognizes the enemy. But we will not exclude ?
Egypt from the invitation to join the federation.
`Isa: Have any Arab countries accepted the idea? ?..
Al-Qadhdhafi: Messages have been delivered but we have not~,~~=?,
received any answers so far. The idea of a federation is based on ~?'~
the establishment of an Arab presidential council including? all. ~ ? ?
the Arab kings and heads of state, to be presided over alternately,.
by each of them, an executive council at the Arab homeland's
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level consisting of all the prime ministers, and a foreign affairs
council consisting of all the foreign ministers. The chairmanship
of the councils will alternate.
Thus the present regimes will not change and nobody will oppose
unity out of fear for his position or status; on the contrary, the
plan gives another advantage, which is that those who are in
power will have the opportunity to preside alternately not only
over their countries but also over the whole nation, even if they
are officials of the smallest and least populous countries.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Pardon... I am talking about the framework or
the form. But what is important is the content, which we will spell
out in the memorandums and subsequent studies attached to the
plan with regard to the establishment of economic institutions
and federal projects on the federation level that will enable the
Arab homeland to become an economic power. An example is the
setting up of an Arab authority for grain in order to provide food
for the Arab homeland on a federal level and only through Arab
resources; a plan for a gas system under which an integrated gas
system will be established covering Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, and
the area up to the Gulf; a single electric power grid linking the
whole Arab homeland so that there are uninterrupted power
supplies, as in Europe. Thus, no factory will stop nor elevator halt
for any reason. This is not a dream but a reality. The resources
are available. There can also be a water network. The Nile can
be linked to the great man-made river in Libya so as to form one
single water network irrigating the desert between the two coun-
tries. The rivers in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria can be linked in
one single irrigation network.
During this time Colonel al-Qadhdhafi was speaking in a dreamy
voice. His features were calm and he was constantly gazing at
the desert through the tent door. We all remained silent and
stopped taking pictures.
AI-Nagqash: In what is the state of the Steadfastness and
Confrontation Front and what impasse is it facing?
Surprised by the question, the colonel gave a low, shy laugh; our
loud Egyptian laughter broke out, disturbing the calm of the
night and of the desert.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, by God, it is a bitter reality. I believe that
the front did play its role under those circumstances. It was
established following Al-Sadat's visit to Jerusalem in order to
prevent a further collapse in the situation. There were Arab
regimes that were ready to follow AI-Sadat's example, such as
Jordan, Sudan, Somalia, and Muscat. But the Steadfastness
Front prevented that from happening.
AI-Nagqash: Are any efforts being made to revive this front?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I believe that we have now superseded it.
Munaf: This leads us to talk about the Arab League. Where
does it stand in relation to the unity plans and is it still qualified
to play its role or any role?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I believe that the federation I proposed is an
expression of the post-Arab League era. We can no longer remain
within the Arab League alone because this would be a real waste.
In the present deteriorating Arab situation we are far too weak
to achieve the unity of the Arab masses. We cannot remain within
the Arab League framework alone. Therefore, my unionist plan
is a transitional stage between the two stages.
Fu`ad: In the light of the present Palestinian situation and after
the agreement between King Husayn and `Arafat, how do you
visualize the next steps?
Al-Qadhdhafi: I assure you that King Husayn and `Arafat will
not remain companions on the road. Their alliance will not last.
The agreement is a tempest in a teacup that will soon die down.
There will be no Jordanian-Palestinian alliance because it is
doomed to failure.
`Isa: Does your excellency believe that the policy of Arabizing
Camp David has failed or is about to fail?
Al-Qadhdhafi: I believe that Egyptian policy is continuing its
efforts toward this end and that its only wish in life is to Arabize
Camp David. It is interested in neither the economic problem nor
anything else in life except trying to Arabize Camp David.
`Isa: Can Egyptian policy achieve its objectives if the Arabs
reject it? If Camp David becomes Arabized it will not be Egypt's
fault alone.
Al-Qadhdhafi: There are certain Arabs who accept.
`Isa: The U.S. Congress recently approved economic aid for the
next 2 years, all of which is attached to political conditions. These
include imposing a trade ban on Libya allegedly because it
sponsors international terror. What is your comment on this, Mr
Colonel, and how much U.S. pressure is there on Libya? And
why?
AI-Qadhdhafi: As to why, I think it is known. The United
States has announced that Libya is its number one enemy and
the Soviet Union is number two. It claims that all that it wants
from the Soviet Union is merely to maintain a balance with it; it
has no designs to occupy it or use it as a stepping stone toward
another objective. As for Libya, it stands in an area which the
Americans hope to invade, dominate, and cross as they close on
the Soviet Union in order to encircle it. Therefore Libya has first
to be removed before the objective can be reached. For this reason
we top the list of U.S. enemies. This was said at the congressional
meeting at which certain economic prohibitions on the Soviet
Union were lifted and economic restrictions were imposed on
Libya.
AI-Qadhdhafi: No. Even if it does... the electronic components
[murakkabat iliktruniyah] they send to us are of no value; we can
live without them. As long as we have our guns in our hands
nothing will affect us.
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V. 15 Aug 8S'
Munaf: Have the visits by some Arab heads of state changed
the nature of conflict with the United States?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Of course. The United States is very keen on
fragmenting and penetrating the Arab ranks. In fact it has
succeeded in penetrating this front which once was progressive
and solid.
AI-Nagqash: Could this be the reason why the Steadfastness
and Confrontation Front failed?
`Isa: Mr Colonel, in the eyes of your adversaries and perhaps
of some of your friends you are an enigma. You say no to
everything yet you are the head of an ambitious state. Yes. [as
published]
AI-Qadhdhafi: A point of order: I am not a head of state; I am
leader of a revolution. There is no head of state in the Jama-
hiriyah because it is the people who are the head.
'Isa: I am sorry. You are a revolutionary leader in a small
country with limited resources and yet you say `no' to everything.
Some people say that you area `target in history" [as published],
meaning that you are the symbol of the nation's rejection of what
is offered to it, because there is a great deal of impracticality in
your policy.
AI-Qadhdhafi: I do what I believe is right and is my duty from
a national standpoint expressing the nation's desire. But from a
regional standpoint there are the shortcomings you have men-
tioned. We are a small, poor, sparsely populated desert state. But
a duty is a duty and what is right is right. Am I to say yes to the
United States when it takes the Gulf of Sirte? Am I to say yes
when it wants to dominate the Arab homeland? Am I to say yes
to recognizing Israel? Am I to accept that Palestine is its land?
Am I to agree that the Arabs should pay for Hitler's crime or pay
with their land and future the price of the persecution of Jews by
the Romans, the Europeans, and the Nazis? They shout "long
live regionalism!" Am I to shout with them? No. I must say no,
whatever the price maybe, even though I may be doing this from
a small and poor country, as you say.
`Isa: Does it not worry you sometimes to feel that you are
"alone" in the midst of a nation looking for compromise solu-
tions?
AI-Qadhdhafi: This is true. This has been realized by the
people who have written about me, the latest being a European
writer. He wrote a book about me called "the lone hawk."
AI-Nagqash: Do you not sometimes feel that you were born in
the wrong age?
AI-Qadhdhafi: By God, I do feel that sometimes. It is a natural
feeling. Revolutionaries are like prophets; they feel like strangers
in the era in which they live because they have a mission that
shocks the established order and the existing reality. Even Noah,
who, according to the Koran, lived to be 950 years old, despaired
and shouted: God be my witness that I have called upon my
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nation day and night and my calling has only caused them to
stray fuither. He also prayed: God, let not the heretics multiply
in the land. This means crush them. This was because every time
he called upon the people to do something in their interest they
would call for the opposite. This too is a tragedy that rev-
olutionaries experience, because they Gave awareness and feel-
ings that prompt them to rise up and rebel. Others do not have
such feelings, otherwise they would all become revolutionaries.
This anger and revolution against the established reality some-
times makes them strangers in the world in which they live. Even
the dreams of revolutionaries sometimes seem strange. The
revolutionary sees tomorrow and dreams of the future as a
reality. I am confident that what I see could be achieved. The
people do not see what I see or else they do not believe it is possible
to achieve it. For instance, I believe that the Arab nation can
become a paradise. It can become one powerful state. I imagine
that it is possible to link the Nile to the great man-made river in
Libya, that the Libyan and Egyptian deserts can turn green, and
that the western desert can yield fruits and become a green
carpet.
`Isa: In which case, Mr Colonel, we will not disagree over
whether it is Egyptian or Libyan. (laughter)
AI-Qadhdhafi: Of course not, because basically it is Arab and
will turn into a paradise. The AI-Nubariyah Canal has reached
Tubruq so it can be linked to the great man-made river that will
reach there. I would imagine that Nasir Lake will be linked to
Al-Kafrah, the source of the great man-made river. Will we not
thus create paradise on earth? How would you feel if you could
see this but people did not see it? Would you not feel alien and
that you were born in the wrong era?
Munaf: Mr Colonel, much has been said about your role in the
Iraq-Iran war. How true are the reports that you are supplying
Iran with missiles and what is the story of the strategic agreement
between the Jamahiriyah and Iran?
AI-Qadhdhafi: There are many misrepresentations regarding
our stand. In order to understand the matter correctly I must
remind you that that when Iraq ceded Shatt al-`Arab to Iran in
the 1975 Algiers agreement, we opposed this and rejected and
condemned the agreement. We said that the shah of Iran was a
fanatic anti-Arab Persian and we were the first to call for the
liberation of the islands which Iran occupied. We called for a
struggle against the shah and advocated toppling him. In the
meantime everybody else was shaking hands with the shah and
and considered our call for his overthrow to be nonsense. But we
continued to incite people against him. At that time Zulfiqar Ali
Bhutto visited the shah, who complained to him about me. Bhutto
told me later that the shah considered me a source of trouble for
him. His papers used to accuse me of being behind every explo-
sion that took place or mutiny that occurred. Nevertheless, I
continued to incite the people against him. The people now ruling
Iran were in jail listening to what I was saying and being
influenced by it. The revolution then broke out and succeeded.
The tyrant, who was the ally of the Americans, the Israelis, and
South Africa, fell. How can I brandish arms in its face? The
strategic alliance that was announced recently is not an
agreement but a common outlook of our revolution and their
revolution, because the Iranian revolution rescued Iran from U.S.
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V. 15 Aug 85 Q 6
NORTH AFRICA
hegemony and proclaimed its stand on the side of the Arab nation
against Zionism, racism, and reaction. So we cannot fight it. I
am very sorry that a war is raging between Iran and an Arab
country. I am not happy because 1 am aligned against an Arab
state but, from an Arab standpoint, 1 cannot fight against a
revolution.
Munaf: But, Mr Colonel, Basra is now threatened with occupa-
tion.
AI-Qadhdhafi: My friend, the whole of Palestine is occupied
yet the Arabs are silent and do nothing about it. By God, the
question is not one of Iran fighting against an Arab wuntry but
of Iran being against the United States because incitement
against Iran would be American incitement. It is this incitement
that is stirring the Arabian peninsula, Egypt, and Jordan to fight
against Iran. Has Arab nationalism become so dear to the United
States?
As long as Iran is against the United States I am with it.
AI-Nagqash: The fact of the matter, Mr Colonel, is that the
Iranian revolution is subjecting the Iranian people to terrible
oppression. How can we differentiate between this and that? It
is the people who are resisting the United States.
AI-Qadhdhafi: These are internal matters. On 14 July 1958,
which we consider a glorious day in the life of our Arab people,
the waters of the Euphrates turned red, yet we did not call this
oppression. We said this was a great revolution. We said to hell
with those who were crushed because they were the enemies of
the revolution. During the French revolution there were guil-
lotines all over France. Nobody condemned this revolution.
Change has its price.
(Various voices) Why do we not mediate between the two coun-
tries, Mr Colonel? Why do you not mediate between them in
order to stop the bloodshed and spare their strength so that they
can confront the principal enemy?
AI-Qadhdhafi: This is a losing war. It is a loss indeed that the
two armies and the two countries should exhaust their military
and economic resources in a senseless war. Iraq will not annex
Iran nor will Iran annex Iraq. It is a war neither against Zionism
nor against the United States. But what has happened is that the
United States and Israel have exploited this war. If there was a
possibility of halting the war I would have done what you asked.
1 did in fact mediate to stop it when Rafsanjani visited mein this
tent. I spoke to him about the matter, but the Iranians are not
amenable to any mediation. I believe that the war, having become
a war of cities, has become a dirty war.
Munaf: Sudan's file has been closed and the Moroccan opposi-
tion file has been closed. Hat will the next file be?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The file of the revolution, which is an ever-open
file. It is a revolution that is bound to wipe out all the vestiges of
the past, the contradictions, and the corriplexes on the Arab land
-reaction, border issues, regionalism, backwardness, spheres of
imperialist influence, and the Zionist camp.
Munaf: In the light of the present situation, assuming that
conditions remain as they are, where, Mr Colonel, is the Arab
nation heading?
Al-Qadhdhafi: For oblivion. If the situation remains as it is we
will become red Indians and we will be scattered among the
continents as they were scattered.
The battle the Israelis are now fighting is a battle for water first
and foremost. All their battles now are aimed at dominating this
area so that Israel controls all the Arab waters, from AI-Litani
to the Nile via the Al-Yarmuk and AI-`Asi Rivers in Jordan, and
so that the Nile waters are diverted to the Negev. Once Israel
achieves its objective on the northern front, it will turn toward
you in Egypt and inevitably annex Sinai.
Al-Nagqash: That is not easy, Mr Colonel.
Al-Qadhdhafi: True, it is not easy. When they reached Beirut
in 1982 they thought that the dream was about to come true and
that when they left Lebanon there would be a state for the
Maronites, another for the Druze, a third for the Shiites, and a
fourth for the Sunnis. Once this was done they would destroy the
Syrian Army and partition Syria as they wished to partition
Lebanon. For this reason I beseeched President Hafiz al-Asad to
stop the fighting between the Syrian Army and the Israeli Army.
I told him that the objective was to destroy the Syrian Army and,
if they succeeded, they would have a free hand to do whatever
they liked in Lebanon and would enter Syria and partition it. We
would thus be realizing their dreams for them. Once this was
done they would move from the north to the south. Thanks to the
Lebanese resistance, the Israeli-U.S. plan was thrown into confu-
sion. The reason is that there is no government or army in
Lebanon. Is this not evidence that in countries where there are
governments and armies the Israelis have succeeded in achieving
their objectives, yet in a country where there is no government,
president, or army they have achieved nothing? Why? Because
they have found a jamahiriyah, an undeclared Lebanese jama-
hiriyah. An armed people without a president or regular army
tore up the 17 May agreement and expelled the Israelis. This was
the first time the Israelis have withdrawn from an Arab country
as a result of fighting by an armed people. This is why we call for
arming the people, because an armed people can never be
defeated.
The fate of countries that have a president who issues orders
declaring war or accepting acease-fire or withdrawal and truce
is in the hands of the president. In Lebanon, Sana` Muhaydali
did not ask the president's permission. Neither did those who
destroyed the U.S. Marine headquarters and the French consul-
ate. This is what a jamahiriyah situation is about.
Al-Nagqash: Is this why you are arming the people?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Yes, that is so.
Munaf: This gives us insight into the Libyan experiment. What
are your observations regarding it after this long experience?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I do not think that enough time has passed with
regard to a historic experiment like ours, which needs many years
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V. 15 Aug 85 Q ~
before it can be judged. But the basis of jamahiriyah rule has in
actual fact been laid down and our choice has been proven right.
It has been established that it is possible to set up a government
of all the people and to end the phenomenon of power seeking and
power conflict. In fact there is a shunning of power because when
power belongs to the man in the street it is no longer attractive.
Some people do not even bother to attend the people's congress
meetings.
AI-Nagqash: There is a very important point, Mr Colonel, since
you have used the term "shunning." For my colleague Salah `Isa
and myself this is our first visit to Libya. We have not yet seen
any experiment of people's power at close quarters, but we have
seen on television that people's congresses consist only of groups
of boys and adolescents. Is this a shunning of participation in
power or are there shortcomings in the execution?
AI-Qadhdhafi: But this is not the time of the meeting of
people's congresses. What you saw on television was a popular
celebration of the 23 July Revolution anniversary, which is
different from the people's congresses. You must see the con-
gresses in their reality. In the United States they consider theirs
an example of representative democracy, yet only 30 percent of
the people take part in the elections. They still call this democ-
racy. Inour country all the people meet in the form of a congress
and issue decisions and laws. It is the congresses that rule, decide,
and legislate. These congresses do not represent the people
because we consider representation charlatanry. For this reason
a people's congress is all the people, not just their representatives.
We have long discussed this matter and have come to the
conclusion that the only form of self-rule is direct democracy.
AI-Nagqash: When you say this is the only form do you not see
that this prejudging the future? Could not humanity produce
other forms?
AI-Qadhdhafi: Whatever it may produce, it will not produce
anything more than the masses. All the forms preceding our
experiment that were democratic represented less than the
masses, while a people's congress is all the people, not their
representative. For this reason there will be nothing greater or
more comprehensive in the future. I did not engineer this idea
but extracted it from world history. After the storming of the
Bastille in France and the masses' attack on the palaces of the
feudal lords monarchy fell. Popular congresses were then sponta-
neously set up everywhere in France. They were called councils.
The masses formed councils and local governments in towns and
villages. This was what happened here in Libya. The people heard
of the downfall of the monarchy and so they set up people's
congresses in certain quarters and discussed the situation; they
sent telegrams containing their recommendations to the Rev-
olution Command Council. Thus when the regime and the gov-
ernment fall the masses move in order to run their own affairs.
This was the experiment from which I drew inspiration in order
to derive the idea of direct democracy and people's congresses as
a means for rule of the people by the people.
`lsa: With regard to the economic aspect of the Third World
theory, Mr Colonel, don't you see that in a country like Libya
with a society...
Al-Qadhdhafi: (interrupting) No, no...
`Isa: Well, what shall 1 say, Mr Colonel?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I have been asked this question many times.
The country is poor and has greater need of this theory than a
rich country. Maybe Libya does not need chapter two of the
Green Book, which contains ideas for solving economic problems,
as much as a poor country with limited resources like Egypt or
Mauritania needs it. If a handful of people take over power in
such a country the rich become richer and the poor become
poorer. When wealth is limited it should instead be shared
equally.
As for Libya and its economic situation, of which you are aware,
the question was one of equality in power sharing. When there is
an employer and an employee there is no equality in expressing
views in the people's congresses. For this reason we have abol-
ished all forms of exploitation. I said: The house is for whoever
lives in it, the car for whoever drives it, and the land for whoever
tills it. Partners and not hired workers.
Al-Nagqash: We have observed that there is great enthusiasm
and emotionalism. Do you not think that excessive emotionalism
and the lack of public awareness could give the opportunity to
elements with greater experience and astuteness, like the army
for example, to take control of things?
AI-Qadhdhafi: There is nothing called the army in our experi-
ment. The army must disappear and so should the government
and the social classes. An army in a jamahiriyah society is a
temporary phenomenon that will disappear and be replaced by
the armed people. We stress that power, wealth, and arms should
be completely and equally divided among the people. This is what
will achieve the power of the masses. Even the revolutionary
committees which we have set up in order incite and enlighten
the masses at the people's congresses are temporary bodies. They
will be dissolved when the people's committees reach a rev-
olutionary level by exercising power and showing greater
awareness. Hence the people's congress will no longer need an
instigator.
Munaf: In the light of recent developments how do you view
relations between the one Arab people in Egypt and Libya?
AI-Qadhdhafi: That is a good expression; they are indeed one
Arab people. You know that 1 love Egypt and I quarreled with
all the world, including the Libyans, when unity was so close.
Some Libyans objected on the grounds that we are a small rich
country while Egypt is a big poor country. I attacked people who
thought thus and said that if the Libyans did not want unity with
Egypt then I would leave Libya. I quarreled even with the Arab
leaders; I became some sort of president for Egypt; 1 quarreled
for its sake with the students when 1 was a student and with the
officers when I was an officer. I quarreled with Boumediene,
Numayri, and everybody else in defending Egypt. l boycotted the
rulers who hated Egypt, but later Egypt rewarded me with evil.
Just imagine, the Voice of the Arabs Radio, which 1 spent many
nights listening to and which I urged the Libyans to listen to,
exhorting them to turn their radio dial from Libya to Egypt -
this very radio is now attacking us and insulting us. It signs on
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with `Abd al-Nasir's words. Let the next bean attack on us. [as
published]
`Isa: Let us go back to brother Munaf s question: How do you
view relations between the one people in the two countries in the
light of what is happening?
AI-Qadhdhafi: The continuation of the Egyptian policy is a
stumbling block that should be removed.
`Isa: Can we not maintain the ties between the two peoples
regardless of the form of government?
AI-Qadhdhafi: I am with you in linking together and merging
the two peoples in a manner that will cut short the life of the
ruling regime. Find me a way to do it. I am prepared to endorse
with my fingerprint and toeprint any action that would link the
two peoples, even if it is at the expense of the Libyan economy.
`Isa: A quick question: Do you consider the ideas of the Green
Book a development of 'Abd al-Nasir's views or do they go
beyond them? Or are they a substitute for them?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We believe that what `Abd al-Nasir said and
did was a forerunner of our experience and we consider ourselves
to be the fruits of his struggle. `Abd al-Nasir was aligned with
the masses. I have come and realized the power of the masses.
`Abd al-Nasir started with socialism and with combating exploi-
tation. Icomplement these things, but those who claim to be
Nasirite and lead Nasirite groups in the United States, Yugosla-
via, Bulgaria, or the Arab countries display doubts about this so
that Libya cannot lead the Nasirite current in the world. For this
reason they say that the Creen Book is against `Abd al-Nasir.
This is a cheap and mean ploy. Nobody can ignore `Abd al-
Nasir'sheritage. We do not deny that we have learned from `Abd
al-Nasir but we cannot remain immobile. If `Abd al-Nasir were
alive now and if he were my age or living in the present cir-
cumstances he would certainly have come out with new propos-
als.
Fu`ad: Let us go back once again to brother Munaf's question.
Allow me to say that I am afraid that there will be a break
between the Arab people in Egypt and in Libya as a result of
what is happening now. How can Libya be emptied of Egyptians?
There are no more than 30,000 or 40,000 Egyptians and the
money they send home in comparison with the remittances of the
4 million or so Egyptians abroad is nothing. The only loser will
be the relations between the two peoples.
AI-Qadhdhafi: There are 100,000 Egyptians and the one
responsible for this break is the Egyptian Government. More-
over, Libyans are banned from entering Egypt. What does the
Egyptian regime have to say to this?
`Isa: It is said in Egypt that it is you, Mr Colonel, who ban them
from visiting.
Al-Qadhdhafi: These are falsehoods which we challenge. The
Libyans are prepared to travel to Cairo tomorrow, but see what
would happen to them. They would either be expelled from the
airport or taken to jail, to the intelligence service, where they
NORTH AFRICA
would be subjected to electric shocks and humiliation. Those who
have suffered such things are still alive and you can meet them
if you wish.
Al-Nagqash: Are there any specific names or incidents; Mr
Colonel?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Good grief! We will bring you Al-Humaydi,
AI-Mughrabi, and Ahmad. These people are known to have
landed at Cairo Airport and were taken away. The marks of
burns can still be seen on their bodies. I tell you that Libyans are
banned from entering Egypt yet we have 100,000 Egyptians here.
Al-Nagqash: But the Libyans do not work in Egypt; this is quite
a different thing.
`Isa: What we are talking about, Mr Colonel, is that when the
Egyptians depart they should be seen off in a manner compatible
with the relations between the two countries, the relations that
we should all preserve regardless of temporary and transient
incidents because they are ammunition for the future.
Al-Qadhdhafi: I will personally make a statement on the radio
so that matters remain within the bounds of the decision that was
issued. In fact the people's congresses adopted a decision to
dispense with the services of all foreigners in general in Libya
because of a problem we have concerning hard currency. With
regard to Arabs, Egyptians or non-Egyptians, the congresses
have decided that applications by any Arab for Libyan citizen-
ship, or Arab citizenship as we call it, should be accepted, even
if 100,000 Egyptians come with their families to reside in Libya
and obtain Libyan citizenship. They are welcome. There are
thousands of Arabs who are obtaining U.S. citizenship. Once I
was visited by an American journalist who turned out to be
Egyptian in origin. Some 10,000 Egyptians obtained U.S. citi-
zenship after the setback. They were all engineers and profes-
sionals. They say that Libya is not technologically advanced and
there are no factories or skyscrapers there. For this reason
engineers are not encouraged to seek its citizenship. Well, what
about the workers and the peasants who work on construction
jobs? Why do they not come and obtain our citizenship? If a poor
Egyptian with many children comes and applies for citizenship
then we will give it to him. But we cannot continue with the
present situation because of the hard currency problem.
AI-Nagqash: How do you evaluate the reactionary forces in
Libya and where do they exist?
AI-Qadhdhafi: All the Arabs have been affected by regional-
ism including, of course, the Libyans, because of the continued
estrangement between the various Arab countries. We had
exploiting classes, such as the merchants, contractors, brokers,
and businessmen. All these have been removed and their
privileges withdrawn. But as ordinary individuals they are still
working. Of course, they are unhappy with our experiment.
Fu`ad: When a people's committee is elected to administer a
certain institution what is the criterion? Is it efficiency or loy-
alty?
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AI-Qadhdhafi: This is the ancient riddle: Is it the people to be
trusted or the people with experience? However, when the pea
ple's congress meets in order to elect a people's committee it takes
into consideration the qualifications required because the com-
mittee members must have certain qualifications in order to be
elected. W hat is important is that experience alone is not enough;
it should be combined with loyalty.
The people's committees run everything; even schools and univer-
sities have committees that include professors, academics, and
students.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Teaching in lecture halls and laboratories is one
thing and administering power is something else. But, of course,
some confusion might occur, not in the philosophical or political
sense but in the ordinary sense. As for the anarchy of Bakunin
and (Brodon), it is not very far from the jamahiriyah system. I
have asked some professors to prepare a study for me clarifying
the difference between the anarchy of Bakunin and (Brodon) and
that of AI-Qadhdhafi. (Laughter)
AI-Naggash: What is your attitude toward Marxism?
AI-Qadhdhafi: We consider it to be a progressive way of
thinking.
AI-Qadhdhafi: Rather we consider ourselves to have super-
seded it.
`Isa: At the end of this interview we are in a better situation
than we were at its beginning. At least we are laughing. We have
something to reproach you with: You said that we had come in
order to defend our government's policy and that we justify
treason. We have come neither to defend nor to attack but to visit
a country that we regard as ours and to meet with you.
AI-Qadhdhafi: In fact I was goading you. I never stop goading.
Revolutionaries never stop goading. [t is their role and this is their
message. (Laughter)
Arab League's Klibi Arrives in Tripoli 14 Aug
LD14/9/3 Tripoli JANA in English 181 S GMT 14 Aug 85
[Text] Tripoli, 28 Dulqidaa, 14 August, JAMAHIRIYAH
NEWS AGENCY - Chedli Klibi, the secretary-general of the
League of Arab States arrived this evening in Tripoli on a visit
to the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriyah.
Chedli gave a statement on his arrival at Tripoli international
airport saying: I look forward to meeting Colonel Mu`ammar
al-Qadhdhafi whom I got used to meeting with regularly to
consult him on what concerns our Arab nation, what brings about
its re-unification and consolidate its unity.
' Received by AI-Qadhdhafi
LD/42232 Tripoli DANA in Arabic 1920 GMT /4 Aug 8S
[Text] Tripoli, l4 Aug (JANA) -The brother commander of the
revolution this evening received the Arab League secretary gen-
eral, Chedli Klibi.
Tripoli Examines Expulsion of Foreign Labor Force
`Biased' Media Reports Condemned
LD/42/43 Tripoli Voice gJ'Greater Arab Homeland
in Arabic 201 S GMT 14 Aug 8S
[Text] Some information media have started a programmed
campaign against the Jamahiriyah's decision to get rid of the
foreign ,labor force, which is part of organizing the economic
course of the Jamahiriyah and within the framework of creating
the ideal productive society that is able to change itself unas-
sisted. ~~,
What attracts attention is that this biased campaign expresses
the hidden ulterior motives for those regimes that have exploited
this chance, which is a word of truth said for deceitful reasons,
and tried to discredit everything progressive and noble in this
nation: unity, revolution, liberation, and fraternity. These
regimes have tried to erase the call of all these aims and slogans
from the; hearts of deprived masses for one purpose: to tie the
masses to the wheels of these regimes by controlling them psy-
chologically and making them hostile toward all the uniting
principles and slogans which are being raised in the interest of
these basically oppressed masses.
Political Editor Comments
LD1504/0 Tripoli Voice 4f Greater Arab Homeland
in Arabic 231 SGMT /4 Aug 85
[Excerpts] Some of the news media have begun a programmed
campaign against the Jamahiriyah's decision to get rid of the
foreign labor force; this is part of the organization of the coun-
try's economic course and lies within the framework of creating
the ideal productive society able to change itself on its own.
The political editor of the Voice of the Greater Arab Homeland
-the voice of the revolutionary committees -commented on
this campaign. He stressed that the resolutions of the basic
people's congresses to dispense with the services of the foreign
labor forces have exposed the Arab regimes and revealed their
true nature, He stressed that these regimes are incapable of
sustaining their peoples and that in every one of their crises, they
put the responsibility for their problems on the shoulders of of
their neighbors. Now they have to pay for their treason and for
being agents of the West.
The editor stressed that the Jamahiriyah is able to absorb 10
million Arabs, not just 100,000, in fulfilment of the achievement
of unity, to fight Western imperialist influence, and exterminate
the local reactionary force inside the Arab wuntries. He pointed
out that unless these goals are being furthered, the masses of the
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V. 1S Aug 8S Q 10
basic people's congresses do not accept any Arab and will treat
him as a foreigner.
NORTH AFRICA
The editor asks: What is the difference between a person from
Bangladesh or Thailand and any person from the Arab countries
who rejects the Arab nation and the establishment of the united
Arab state?
The editor called on the Arab regimes to solve this riddle for him.
In this regard, the political editor points out that the basic
people's congresses have stressed in their resolution that Arabs
who want to come to or remain in the Jamahiriyah must consider
the Jamahiriyah to be Al-Madinah and themselves to be immi-
grants and its followers. They are partners, for better or worse,
in good times and bad, and on earth and in heaven.
In his reply to the campaign of doubt, the editor stresses that at
issue is not Libyan nationality but Arab nationality. He adds that
the decision to dispense with the foreign labor force is the decision
of the masses of the basic people's congresses, not the decision of
Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi, who does not have any legislative
authority in the Jamahiriyah. Hence, those who wish to live
among the Arab masses in Libya must bear the consequences of
this decision in order to be treated on equal terms with Libyan
Arabs as concerns foreign [as heard] transactions and training in
the use of arms to defend the Arab nation and its destiny.
The editor stresses that the solution is not to falsify the facts and
engage in childish bickering but to strive for Arab unity and the
establishment of one Arab state in which the wealth of the Arabs
is distributed equally among the masses of the Arab nation.
The masses of the people's congresses decided to dispense with
the foreign labor force, have taken into consideration that he who
is in need has no freedom of choice, because such freedom is
imprisoned within this need [quotation from the Creen Bookk and
the needy are pressured into becoming the victim of reactionary
regimes which are agents of the United States and the colonialist
West.
The editor stressed that Arab unity is the solution which will save
us from the whirlwind of unemployment crises, need, and exploi-
tation. All the radical solutions for these chronic crises and
problems are contained in Arab unity. There is no way to achieve
popular freedom and democracy except by hastening the collapse
of the bankrupt and decrepit reactionary regimes which usurped
by force the masses' legislative rights and sovereignty. The
political editor of the Voice of the Greater Arab Homeland -
thevoice of the revolutionary committees -ended his commen-
tary with a number of questions, including the following:
Is it reasonable or logical that the reactionary regimes should be
supported with $4 or $5 billion every year? Is that the price for
the hostility of these regimes to Arab unity? Or is that the price
for falling into the laps of the West and being its agents? Is that
the price for treachery to the Arab cause and alliance with the
reactionary forces? Is that the price for making one's territory
the bases, staging point, and facilities for the Western invasion
fleets?
Foreign Ministery Announces Resuming Iranian Ties
EA141613 Omdurman Domestic Service in Arabic
1 S00 GMT 14 Aug 85
[Text]The Foreign Ministry issued a press statement today about
the visit to Sudan by the Iranian delegation, headed by Mr
Hoseyn Sheykh ol-Eslam, deputy foreign minister for political
affairs.
The statement stressed that arising from the principles and aims
of Sudan's declared foreign policy, and for the sake of
strengthening Sudan's relations with its brothers in the Islamic
world, the two sides have agreed to resume diplomatic relations.
It was also decided to exchange diplomatic representatives in
Khartoum and Tehran as soon as possible.
The two sides discussed ways of strengthening relations in eco-
nomic, commercial, cultural, and technical fields. After taking
cognizance of the Iranian situation, the Government of Sudan
expressed its concern and regret at the continuation of the
destructive Iran-Iraq war which drains a lot of the energies of the
two peoples. Sudan called for an end to the war forthwith. The
delegation expressed Iran's readiness to provide necessary assis-
tance to alleviate the suffering from drought and desertification
in Sudan.
On the other hand, the prime minister and the foreign minister
accepted the invitation extended to them to visit Iran. The date
of the visit will be fixed later.
The delegation left Khartoum this morning, returning to Tehran
after a visit that last several days.
Daf alla6 Views Relations With Eastern Bloc
JN141858 Khartoum SUNA in Arabic 1800 GMT 14 Aug 85
[Text] Khartoum, 14 Aug (SUNA) -Prime Minister Dr al-
Jazuli Dat`allah will represent Sudan next October during the
celebrations to be held on the 40th anniversary of the establish-
ment of the United Nations. He will also visit Italy, France,
Britain, the Netherlands, and the FRG.
In a statement to the press today, Dr al-Jazuli explained that the
aim of this tour is to discuss relations between Sudan and these
countries and explain Sudan's new image and policies in the new
era.
Asked about the development of relations between Sudan and the
Eastern bloc, Dr al-Jazuli, affirmed that Sudan stretches a
friendly hand to all countries, and that the new era is basically
seeking Sudan's interests and sees no difference between the East
and the West in serving the country's national interests.
Asked about relations between Sudan and the Soviet Union, Dr
al-Jazuli said he met with the Soviet ambassador in Khartoum,
before the ambassador's trip to Moscow, and explained to him
Sudan's foreign policy as a nonaligned country stretching a
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