AL-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED BY AL-MAJALLAH

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400390043-6
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 12
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 31, 2012
• Sequence Number: 43
• Publication Date: January 23, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/01/31 :CIA-RDP05-015598000400390043-6
Further Reportage on Visit of Saudi Crown Prince
Holds Talks With Prime Minister
LD232304 Algiers Domestic Service in Arabic 1900 GMT
23 Jan 85
[Text] Algerian-Saudi political talks commenced this morning in
the (?Manktada) Hotel under the chairmanship of Brother
Abdelhamid Brahimi from the Algerian side, and His Royal
Highness Prince `Abdallah ibn `Abd al-`Aziz, the crown prince,
deputy prime minister, and commander of the National Guard,
from the Saudi side.
The talks, which continued for 2 hours, covered ways to consoli-
date relations between the two fraternal countries in the eco-
nomic and commercial fields. Within this framework, the two
delegations listened to a report on the progress achieved in
economic cooperation. The two sides stressed [words indistinct]
the commercial exchanges.
They discussed issues relating to the international oil market and
the coordination of the positions of the two countries in the
interest of the OPEC countries.
During their talks the two delegations also discussed interna-
tional issues in general and Arab issues in particular in both the
Maghreb and Mashriq. They also discussed existing bloody Iran
and Iraq war.
The Algerian delegation consisted of Brothers Djamel Houhou,
the miniiter of public health; Belkacem Nabi, minister of energy
and petrochemical industries; Mohamed Aberkane, deputy min-
ister of external trade; Mostapha Nenawar, deputy minister of
finance; [name indistinct], head of the Arab affairs department
in the Foreign Affairs Ministry; and a number of senior officials.
The Saudi side consisted of Faysal al-Huyajlan, the minister of
health; `Abd al-`Aziz al-Zamil, minister of industry and electric-
ity; 'Abd al-`Aziz al-Tuayjari, assistant deputy commander of
the National Guard; Nasir al-Rajihi, chief of crown prince's
court; Prince Turki ibn `Abdallah, adviser to the crown prince's
court; and Muhammad Hasan al-Fazi, the Saudi ambassador to
Algeria.
Concludes Visit, Departs
LD2500/3 Algiers Domestic Service in Arabic 2300 GMT
24 Jan 85
(Text] Prince'Abdallah ibn `Abd al-`Aziz, crown prince, deputy
prime minister and commander of the National Guard in the
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, has ended his 3-day visit to Algeria
during which he was received by President Chadli Bendjedid, the
FLN Party secretary general and president of the republic.
Talks were held between the two countries' delegations dealing
with ways and means of strengthening bilateral relations between
the two Fraternal countries in the economic and commercial fields
Y
and the situation in the international oil market. Major interna-
tional issues in general and Arab issues in particular were also
discussed.
AI-Qadhdhafi Interviewed by AL-MAJALLAH
PM24/239 London AL-MAJA/.LAH in Arabic
23-29 Jan 85 pp 10-16 ~~
[Interview with Colonel~Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi y chief editor
`Imad al-Din Adhib in ipoli -date no gi-date no given
[Text] `Imad: You realize that every theory is the outcome of a
socioeconomic condition at a given historical stage. My question
to you is, was the historical condition in which the Jamahiriyah
is now living, the socioeconomic situation the reason that
prompted you to do what you are doing`? In other words, was
there a real and inevitable need for your theory?
Mu`ammar: 1 have not done what 1 have done because I was
compelled to do it. But after the idea of revolution ripened in my
mind, I felt that the world in which we live was going through a
real political crisis. My study of history - as I am specialized in
history -has proven to me that the base of political opposition
in the world is broadening, while the base of political participa-
tion is narrowing. For this reason 1 devised a theory that enables
the base of both participation and opposition to broaden simulta-
neously, so that the forces are not divided into oppositionist and
participant. 1 devised a system that does not make one deputize
for the other.
The parliaments we see today have become obsolete. The parlia-
ments today approve, the governments decide, and the peoples
come out to demonstrate against the parliaments they have
elected, as is happening in Western Europe. This shows that the
parliament does not really reflect the people's will. European
governments approve of wars and nuclear missiles while the
European masses are against wars and nuclear missiles. This
shows that governments and peoples are far apart.
This political controversy will eventually lead to "all the people"
participating in the authority. According to this view the parlia-
ments, governments, regular armies, and police will come to an
end and the state will be administered by the masses.
In our theory we have the slogan: No democracy without
peoples' congresses and committees everywhere. Every peoples'
congress held anywhere is like a parliament. Instead of having
one assembly representing the people, the people are divided into
multiple assemblies.
`Imad: t understand from what you say that you favor a system
that enables "everybody" to participate in power, and enables all
to have freedom of expression...
Mu`ammar: (Interrupting) Oh, 1 am with the contemporary
law, which is power for everybody.
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INTER-AFRICAN AFFAIRS P ~
Further' Reportage on OATUU Congress in Lagos
SDAR Observer Status Discusses
AB240910 Lagos NAN in English 0850 GMT 24 Jan 85
[Text] Lagos, Jan 23 (NAN) -The observer status granted to
the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SDAR) at the current
4th Congress of the Organisation of African Trade Union Unity
(OATUU) was today in Lagos withdrawn by the organisation's
secretariat.
Conference sources told the NEWS AGENCY OF NIGERIA
(NAN) that the withdrawal was sequel to a point raised by some
delegates that the recognition of SDAR by the OAU was not an
automatic qualification for its participation in OATUU. The
stand of the congress, the source said, was that since the SDAR
had not applied formally for membership of the organisation; it
was not entitled to a seat at the congress. To qualify for member-
ship,the SDAR must apply through the secretary-general, to the
executive council whose decision is subject to ratification by the
congress, the source added.
The NLC [Nigerian Labour Congress] information officer,
Malam Salisu Muhammed, told NAN the SDAR delegates were
erroneously invited by N LC as observers at the congress. Malam
Salisu said that the SDAR delegates would however be allowed
to remain in their hotels until the end of the congress.
The Moroccan delegation yesterday walked out on the con-
ference following presence of the SDAR delegation. They
returned to their seats after the N LC officials had explained that
they were observers at the congress.
Secretary General Reviews Activities
AB241I52 Lagos NAN in English 0928 CMT 24 Jan 85
[Text] Lagos, Jan 23 (NAN) -The Organisation of African
Trade Union Unity (OATUU) intervened in 16 cases~of 'trade
union rights violations in Africa in the past four yea~s,'~its
secretary-general, Mr. Dennis Akumu, said in Lagos today.
Delivering a report on the activities of the union's secretariat to
its fourth congress, Mr. Akumu said that the interventions which
occurred in 16 countries resulted in the prevention of attempts to
ban trade union movements, release of detained union leaders
and revocation of death sentences against unionists. Others, he
said, were the stoppage of a bill to split trade unions in Nigeria
and protests on administrative interferences in the internal
affairs of national labour centres.
Mr. Akumu further said that the OATUU Secretariat had
within the past four years increased its campaign against the
apartheid regime in South Africa, adding that a number of
international conferences and seminars had been organised by
the union on the subject. "We are now co-ordinating with the
Maritime Unions Against Apartheid (MUAA) on the possibility
of embarking on an oil embargo against South Africa," he said.
He said that 10 of the 13 proposed pan-African federations had
either been formed or were in the process of being formed.
Among those already formed, he said, were the Pan-African
Workers of Commerce (PANACOM) in Congo, the All-African
Teachers' Organisation in Ghana, the Pan-African Federation
of Mineworkers in Algeria, the Pan-African Federation of Agri-
cultural Trade Unions in Togo and the Pan-African Federation
of Petroleum Energy and Allied workers in Libya.
Mr. Akumu said that officials of the OATUU Secretariat had
also visited Europe to "acquaint themselves" with the life of the
African migrant workers there and had also discussed the "Ame-
lioration of their living conditions with a number of European
trade union centres."
Mr. Akumu told the delegates that OATUU had embarked on
joint programmes with a number of Arab institutions under the
auspices of the Afro-Arab Trade Union Conference on Co-
operation. .
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U , '
'Imad: (Interrupting) This leads me to discuss a phrase you said
in explaining the Green Book. Regarding freedom of expression,
you said "if thereisa community of 10 people. in which nine agree
on a certain view, I do not care about the view of the one
individual who opposes the view of the nine." In fact 1 totally
disagree with this view, because it is not fair to the one individual.
Suppose that a person does not believe in your Jamahiriyah
system. Where will his ,place be with you?
Mu`ammar: It is the Jamahiriyah system that gives freedom of
expression to the individual. In a system like this, a minority is
not oppressed. Even in the people's congresses we find that if one
expresses s diffievestt ~s-rr, st i~ reex~eeted ipe tine ~si~t~ artd tei~
view is heeded. For example, if some of tfie congresses recom-
mends acertain system for land reform, and a minority opposes
it, what happens? The majority applies the system it approved
and the minority does not approve it until it sees the outcome of
the system once implemented.' When the General People's Con-
gress, which includes representatives from all the people's con-
gresses, tneeis, its task is to recoucite variocas thews. But. this d~
not discount the .minority view. For this reason, we are against.
having out person express the view of 10 ~ I O , express the
can represent aaather ar express We13 tle fee3iags aad interests
of ethers. Everyone expresses his own views.
'Essaad: was is surr.s3li: g ~a ovhisb or.~ ~a3d ~~ m~ a~~
it con:td be considered one of the positive matters. But w3iat l do
not consider positive and can never agree with, is that a people's
congress shoa9d meet in the Jamafiiriyab and decide at tfie end
of its meeting to pass a death sentence. against afl individual or a
gz-~np -~' people. IJu ~rnu apt,+suve of s~ dec~ious~
I~m`a~uua.r_ '~ is a tea 37~? c~cer~ dbe? as.>~s~s &~
tfx t-rrsa4 sad f;~ ~ ~~ tie es~x~,
F~r1 wills iI~ ? ~.sy cuusas. #rs Alsece ~?uses tbt . p~o-adc
eFc a~ a d~a`~ ~>ti3~ ~ ~y t;~ r. ~ A~ ,~~
a~3 Eist aiEE
CJrdinary cases are dealt with b_y nrdi.nary courts, which ]iaue aII
the abitit:ies in pass a fair judgement against the accused. But in
exeepii~at esse3 thei+e pia be rervt$tiarrar4 fitce t~+c
art ~ aftrr thr L~-stoci StaACS srai~i ~ > ~ ~~
13~ ~ a~ sue! ~ ~ Qi`ac ~ ~ ~ asA
IA ~ Arc if, tea dl~2s ~ ~+t.
f~osl. ta~xf SIt~.: s ads: attri +g~ t'~eg?
weed in Yaice shC3trs is ~ , ~ me~a3rers of
aEss "-4s~~ ~i3y dm. ~ `'
a~ ~e;ta ae?~x ems. ~-;~+,,?,~a - iar~caa ~ h~
TB~e:csgsr"t src~ 4Psti s?t! fhr 4l~iffi sxt~s
Qaar ~~ dl~~a a~ as,~nr.~e~. A traaq>9c~c-~s 4'~?B
a,~tsi~ ?t~~ess~ffi -~.s
4.'a ~ eae~ate tY~e.'ra.
B~II g~L93~?' 4I~' 4& t~ @$3L >&s54s l71rp~3@i~t 4WP i7err Tg'.
`Itffi3{~ Y~ ~9i'eS~e3Ti Sui$ !'fi>731 t'~ 3rd ~'L'.
r~saass~:s is t.a~_ !"~ Yl~ aa?sz~'
~-im'~a: 6t ~ ~ tc~ ~ ~~..dt~ arm saxr~es.
`Imad: Yesterday 1 performed the Friday prayers in a mosque
in Sabratah. In this mosque and through my tour of the Jama-
hiriyah, Ifelt that Islam is strong Ifl Libya. Is there a possibility
of the Islamic fundamentalist trends' taking part in political
activities in the Jamahiriyah? Is there a dialogue with these
trends, and do they have any future? Or should they participate
only in accordance with what the Green Book says?
Mu`ammar: Anyone?who has a view to express can be a mem-
ber ofthe people's congresses; he may come and say whatever he
wants, particularly since the Holy Koran is the source of legisla-
tion, and our constitution says so. We arc with freedom. Nobody
Carr tse ~PP9 tgrritiss tee is free. "Need lies irr freedom.?~'
`Imad- [have read scores of ptacards'which say, ".Need lies in
freedom." Frankly I did not understand the meaning- of this
phrase.
Mu`ammar. A needy person is eat Free. If yon are my servant,
t~ t~ ace ~ cite ir+ov. !? ~ r+~f a$ ;~
buIIding, then you are not free` Therefore, "need ties in freedom."
`1r 'lam p.s ~ sm .. airs is
t>g treedoari:'~
?tafs ~u~au~a- itf .211g~iiFtg~ tTf~s ~fl0t itxe.p~- W.Itai ~ woa.Yd 3I~CQ
~ ~!'e &~ +'. g~ SI~Ict $a~Ct+&45R1fl~, ti 4~t41 !
is eat free..
`Imad: Let me astc you a question whicfi is on my mind. flow is
Libya rrlled flow? (k ~flofe coffcctly, who fates Libya? Let tt~e
espiasa ~ you my view, aad carrecx me iY Z ~ urro~.
3 ~ i~ 1:b~a a ~a~a~r cef Tleese "Aloe beadoea>,
3s~`a~ar x4 a4rc ~eQ ..
tom. p~ag~te's ai3~e~.5, she e s oa~~esses. tide Ge~a3
C ~. it~e I Serreiari~ti i's~e
aa~l,1~, Hide A~,y, dl~ iu's~ cSiiuct~ry easeAAe~+, udf ~
~ asp Alex . l't4ee~. ~i~ ~ m ~aaazs iiB.~ 3~
outside L-hya co~as,~srin;, of caputaTifls and ~t~~~ Dates
this Writ c^~ti*~+P a c~flict wig tlte.autlaciriEi~s. aad v+iL! it aot
lead to intcrsa3 ea~ictx is #~ futm~'~
~?a`~s~r_ S~?aes~ i~ !!~ Jisa@e is d~s~ iiaSn s
ara3 p~o~de_s 3mc o
~w~9"~a~, #I has to d~ a~3t4 ~e estrs~ a~s~rs~al; .
fie ms`s ~ gmd toElmvf ~ ils~rse ~.
t~iiiSe g~;e o~Cn armd res~es !fit ~e sreaa~4se%aAa~v
a ' tii~ trans iie~te c~ida ate
~ " - - aaad tJ~ fail~ii~g ~ ut i
cls~e=x t~ ~ ss to sQ>,~ tie ester
?rl' ?Ise T~ >.4zi~as~r oam~itiarts +~ sit s
~r~ dues ~ Re,>~t~ G+o~s>~ ~_ ~ c4Q sent
exefcise t_ Erery~.l3a~ '~ beea t3~e ca;~et Its
beer ~ssst~ed. aax} 4'he 4te~ C?esreetassd Cs~nce~ has beetr
~~LSI~_
`~z~$ g fists ~3n mar ~f-(Sri s` a'r~-
sttstetiaanl ta~~
l~i~`~msnr_ ~~rr a l 1~ a~ell~ ~
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V. 25 ,Ian 85 Q 3 NORTH AFRICA
`Imad: You have a job. committees.
Mu`ammar: (Immediately) No, no, no, 1 have no job whatso- , 1,-?
ever. 1 do not have the power to sign any decision herein Libya `Imad: Which are the stronger, the people's committees or the
or abroad. revolutionary committees?
Mu`ammar: The role of the revolutionary committees is to
`Imad: (Interrupting) You get a salary. strengthen the people's committees.
Mu`ammar: Yes, 1 do get a salary... ~
`Imad: What if the revolutionary committees held a view com- ~
'Imad: You get a salary for what job? pletely contrary to that of the people's committees?
Mu`ammar: (Laughing)1 receive a salary since 1 was a colonel
in the Libyan Army. I was a major, and after the revolution I Mu`ammar: No, no, such a contradiction will never happen. ~
obtained the rank of colonel. Since then 1 have been receiving the The members of the revolutionary committees are revolutionary
salary of a colonel. men and they motivate the masses. How can there be contradic- ~
lion between a revolutionary person and the masses? The masses
'Imad: Only? may not respond to a revolutionary person's exhortation, but that ~
Mu`ammar: Only! does not mean that there is contradiction between them. l cannot
`Imad: Supposing you meet King Hassan I1, for example; in say that 1 rule on behalf of the people. No, that will never happen. ~
what capacity do you meet him? 1 will never rule on their behalf or in their stead. `Imad, do you
Mu`ammar: In my capacity as the revolution leader. know what `Abd al-Nasir's mistake was? ~
`Imad: If an agreement is signed between Libya and another `Imad: What was it?
state, who signs it, and how will you have the power to sign? Mu`ammar: Until his death, `Abd al-Nash was loyal to the
? masses, who loved him and had great faith in him. He began to
Mu`ammar: I have no power to sign any agreement with states. act in place of the masses. The "president" became the idol. He ~
Even if I signed any agreement, political paper, or anything with became everything. As long as he was there, he knew where the I
another state, such a signature would be only a "courtesy." But interests of the masses lay and he was the one to solve their
it will not be valid unless it is put to the people's congresses and problems. In that sense President `Abd al-Nash became every-
endorsed. It is possible for these congresses to say no to what~l thing.
have signed. It is their view that is put into effect. ~
`Imad: So what is the difference between you and `Abd al-Nash
`Imad: Let us assume that 1 am a Libyan citizen and that 1 have in this connection? i
stood up in one of these congresses and called for your dismissal
from your post. What post would that be? Mu`ammar: No, 1 am doing the opposite. 1 tell the masses:
If you really love me, then you rule instead of me, and so everyone I
Mu'ammar: Whose dismissal? There is no post you can dismiss becomes as powerful as AI-Qadhdhafi.
me from. There is no appointment or dismissal in the revolution.
Today I do not exercise power. That is why the masses will be
'Imad: For example, when you send Revolution Command able to rule after 1 go. In `Abd al-Nasir's case, when he died the
Council members Major `Abd al-Salam Jallud'or Al-Khuwayldi masses found themselves without the president to whom they had
al-Humaydi on political missions abroad,:in what capacity do you entrusted their will. That means that their will died with him.
do so? When AI-Sadat came to power, he took that will to the stable
David (in the Jamahiriyah they call Camp David the stable
Mu`ammar: In a revolutionary capacity. We are only the ones David). 1 have given the people their will. l am here lest their will
who carried out the revolution. We cannot do anything. against die after me. The Egyptian masses did not die, but their will died
the Libyan people's will. Do you know that the people frequently with `Abd al-Nasir. Herein Libya it is quite the opposite.
reject proposals 1 submit to them? I have, for example, proposed
that a child's elementary education should be done at home by `Imad: Clearly you expect too much from the Libyan people.
his parents. You want them to practice democracy, pursue militarization,
solve sanitation problems, expand agriculture, have people's
committees, and so on. You want all that, even though Libyan
'Imad: When would the parents go to work if they spent their society is still suffering from fundamental problems such as
time teaching their children? illiteracy and the old tribal social structure. Are you not speeding
up the normal historical development cycle?
Mu`ammar (continuing): What is important is that the aim of
my proposal was to give the parents the responsibility for elenien- Mu`ammar: That is true. I do ask much of the Libyan people,
tary education. However, the people's congresses rejected the but 1 seek to strengthen the Libyan people's will and rev-
proposal. lalso proposed the reduction of subsidies for tea, sugar, olutionary motivation. 1 will tell you a story to explain what I
and many other consumer goods. They rejected those proposals mean. In the `Abbasite era, I think, one of the caliphs summoned
too. The decisions are made by the people's congresses. l have no a doctor to treat his wife who was suffering from chronic paralysis
power above theirs. If 1 go now, the masses can take my place of the left arm. Do you know what the doctor did to cure her?
and they can do without me and without the revolutionary (Here signs of extreme admiration appeared on Mu`ammar's face
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as he told the story.) The doctor tied up her good arm and then
pretended that he was going to tear up her dress completely. The
caliph's "wife was so upset and frightened that she moved the
paralyzed arm. "that means that there is a latent power in human
beings and that people have to be greatly provoked or challenged
to move and excel. The Arab nation can excel and it has a
tremendous latent power.
`Imad: Let us move to another point that 1' find difficult to
understand. 1 can understand the justification for the state's
control of production, but 1 do not understand why a ?barber's
shop or a sandwich kiosk should be run by a people's committee
or why the government should prevent such stores from operating
on their own. You have gone too far in your experiment. Don't
you think that it is against the laws of nature to prohibit man's
traditional consumer practices?
i
Mu`ammar: We only acknowledge productive people. I cannot,
for example, give a license to 10 people and withhold it from 100
others. Starting an unproductive project is one of the easiest
things to do. If we let that happen, the entire society would
become unproductive.
`Imad: People throughout the woi?Id -and this has been the
case throughout history -produce in order to consume some of
their products. There must be an awareness of natural human
needs and customs.
Mu'ammar: Herein Libya we do that. There are cafes, restau-
rants, and stores, but they arc all projects run by the people's
committees, and there is no special vocation. The Jamahiriyah's
socialism is different from Marxist socialism and from socialism
in Western Europe. Our socialism is based on the principle that
a society's wealth should be equally shared by all of its members.
You get only what you need. if you are entitled to a house, then
you can own one, but you have no right to have more than one
house. A worker is your partner, not your hired hand: You get a
share of what is produced. If you work in a car factory you get a
share of the cars. (Here Mu`ammar raised a tea cup.) If this cup
costs 5 piastres, then we sell it for 5 piastres, without making
profit from the people:
`Imad: (Interrupting) Yesterday 1 visited a textile mill in the
Janzur area. 1 asked the workers: Do you make any profits?
They said that the question of profits has not yet been resolved.
Doesn't your socialism give the profits to the workers?
Mu`ammar: (Laughing) Profits? Yes, we give them more than
that. We give them~a share of the products. For example, let us
say that a car factory that produces 30 cars is based on the
woi?kets, the machines, and the raw materials. We distribute the
production proceeds equally among the workers, the machines,
and the raw materials. Here we do not have people who make
profit from other people.
`Imad: You could have a private sector with its own price law
and thus give individual initiative a chance.
Mu`ammar: No, this so-called prices law is a bourgeois solu-
tion. That is what we call a reform solution. They are a kind of
cosmetic solution. What happened to these solutions in Egypt?
They all disappeared with a stroke of Al-Sadat's pen. What we
are doing here cannot be eliminated with a stroke of anyone's?
pen. A house belongs to whoever lives in it, and the land belongs
to everyone.
`Imad: But, by saying that your theory is the best theory in the
world, aren't you being unfair to the other political theories in
the world? is it reasonable to say: "1 am right and everybody
else is wrong"?
Mu`ammar:. The capitalist world's corruption has been proven.
Marxism was a reaction to the class society of the capitalist
world, but even Marxism is in the grip of a crisis right now, as in
China. The Polish experiment has proved that the state, not the
workers, rules in a Marxist society. The communist party is no
longer the pioneer of the masses. There is an economic, political,
and social crisis throughout the world. Marxism has now reached
a dead end. Civilization should not simply view the crisis as a
spectator. That is where our theory comes in, and it overcomes
the crises of capitalism and Marxism.
`lmad: You know that there is a time and a place for every
theory. Theories are introduced to suit the historic, geographic,
social, and economic circumstances of the various societies.
Assuming that I am a~Swede and very happy with the system I
live under, would 1 conceivably say: If I were not a Swede I
would like to be a Libyan, because the Jamahiriyah has come up
iwith a third theory?
Mu`ammar: A Swede would be happier under the Jamahiriyah
system. In Sweden the regime imposes taxes, compulsory con-
scription, nuclear missiles, and military pacts or treaties that the
people do not want. The demonstrations against nuclear missiles
prove that 'the European people oppose the parliaments that
approved the deployment of missiles on their territory. The
European people are against their governments.
`Imad: Not all the peoples and not every individual is against
nuclear missiles. I am against nuclear missiles, but to be fair it
must be said that millions of peoples in Western Europe support
the deployment of nuclear missiles on their territory as a deter-
rent against any hostile nuclear attack.
Mu`ammar: All living peoples reject nuclear missiles. The
GreensParty, for example, agrees with the third universal theory.
Although we have not met with its members personally, they are
an extension of us. This is an indication that the peoples are
marching and will not stop until they achieve power in Europe
and then replace the armies, the police, and all the state institu-
tions.
`Imad: Let us now move on to discuss Arab and international
affairs. I was at the recent PNC meeting in Amman and I heard
some people ask: .How can Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi be sup-
porting Nicaragua more than he supports the PLO? How can the
"Greens" in Europe be a natural extension of you more than the
Palestinian revolution? .
Mu`ammar; (irritated) On the contrary, l am for the Palestin-
ian revolution with all my might. But let me ask you: Is the
Palestinian revolution Abu `Ammar [Yasir `Arafat], or is it the
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chairman?
, )IiJ . .
'Imad: Allow me, Mu'ammar, to convey to you the view of the
other side as I heard it from Abu''Ammar's leadership. And you
must understand that I am only trying to convey the other side's
view. If I were with Abu 'Ammar I would have sincerely con-
veyed your viewpoint to him. And if I were with Jibril's Fatah,
Samir Ghawshah, or,Abu Musa I would have conveyed Abu
'Ammar's viewpoint to them, and so forth.
Mu'ammar. Please proceed...
'Imad: They said in Amman that, in accordance with the
statute and in the.absence.of the. PNC chairffma for any reason,
the vice chairman would send out invitations for convening the
PNC and fix the time and place of the meeting. And, if there was
a quorum at the meeting, then the council and, consequently, its
recnl_.!tina would be considered legal and hinding_
Mu'amtnar: Aba 'Ammar, dear sir, appointed members to the
PNC, and therefore it was no longer legitimate. But let me tell
Inn that this is riot my Pritrcipal concern. Whetter Abe'Anm ar
remains or not is not my problem._I am not against Abu 'Ammar
in flesh and blood or in name. I am against his defeatist stands.
1 stand for armed struggle for the liberation of Palestine from the
river to the sea, even if the Palestinians do recognize Ls. raeL I am
for armed straggte became !suet's objective is not o ,fy Palestine.
Its objective is to occupy and dominate the whole Arab world. It
is the Zionist, colonialist enemy, that is now armed with nuclear;
weapons and is currently posing a serious threat to the Arabs.
Whether the world likes it or not, we reject the presence of this
enemy became he threatens oer exis ~ . f wisp that Abe
'Ammar cctd return and lad the battle to liberate Palestine or
indeed t h a t Vrailw other pessuia would cue farwud and lead the
liberat t battle-
'imad: Well, I would like to ask you: How will you deal with
the rs simatim? Have yam fi afg cbmsca to s=ad against
what you call the Palestinian right and with the ?aciions of the
Palestinian left? Or is there a possibity' of reconciliation
bets ra s m a>ad Abu 'Anne's. i rship and of a pc&isal
?
A1?'amnaar Thm is t~ pffabim bamew we and Abw
Amer- Yasir 'Arafat is the chdr~ of Fatah and FBtab has
rrv*hxdamism hiaL Iakw_v aril Abu
'Ammar, of Whose MM is is I. 's At-B'.. I
am with ame Fatah which is is AI-Birta'- Best Abe 'Amw is is
Teas. I am with the Fatah in the frelld- '[he mm tat that Fatah
is Abe iktesa-
`!nand: Can ys eat coseitixt= between these?
me aw rr. (Pont Why+skald i! play the rple of WWI-
iator,.`Imad? They know their problem and the Sohn s to them
better. .Morm er, the Plestinisa kaolas ANt'Arnmar better and
has ejected. fiEm Baiclly, I am with the
"ltta Let erne xsk a gnestiata that is sg many Arab&
doeroild M mope astandoil the ham= rambMw
in is war with drab Irani? Why did 1yco adtc ibis stand?
whether Iran is fighting Iraq or not. The question of the Iraq-I ran
war is a separate matter. From the start I was with the revolution
against the former shah. I was against the terrible U.S. influence
in Iran. I was the one who called for revolution in Iran because
the shah was the enemy of the Arab nation and an ally of Israel.
I incited revolution against the shah; the revolution did take
place, and it succeeded. Thefact that Iran is fighting Iraq is a
passing matter that will not let me change my attitude to the
Iranian revolution. So how can you ask me to fight against that
revolution?
'Imad: You are not asked to fight the Iranian revolution. But
you are requested to play your "instigatory role," to "exhort"
Iran to stop the war with Iraq and reach a just and honorable
agreement between the two sides.
Mu'amtnar_ You mast knew that I have ode area efdwts
with Iran to stop this rear. To this mom =nt the Iranians insist that
they were not the party that started this war.
'Imad: ? et me aslc yvw Judging fromyour information and
strong contacts with Iran, do you believe that Iran will stop the
war?
Mu'ammar: (The colonel here dropped a bombshell, although
he was talking' ery quietly and matter-of-factty as if, for exam-
ple, he was just saying- Good morning!)) According to my
information Iran will not end the war because it believes that it
is closer to an. end .in its favor than to a retreat
`fmad The Arab world is preparing for an Arab summit to be
heM in the next few weeks or months. Are you in favor of such
efforts?
Mu'anuuar: I have atways been and continue to be is favor of
convening an Arab summit, even if circumstances dictate that I
Wig not attend it I beheve that t pre t circaa samces reel for
convening an Arab si mmii to try to salvage the pseseutsits aim
I am in favor of Arab snmm+ts even if there is an Arab mmmit
e6usy h.. What is it sane is that at tie sa . t-u the
Anna bald maim th& Gil Ial and wsiam ply
clams e, afkr the Arm damdrd to k aff rerun 0-bb
EMM4 rill tip began ... i ae.
rdafiaps with in, and cmdoffm trail ag ss
with it, till q"arag the Arab smamb - S Arab
Ids have signed ;may and l l! agr sts with me, l
they mom boamcd their - this ream I say that
dthe Arab 1 dsaIDat Lap their and do tot
t) I a d r u c c a i r an Ards szom-h
bmavw it is bract than the gwuscraa digmysira_ Iff Benib 9=6-z
woe held is laDd time, the Arab s aoara out ',kl be beaeer than
it is lbw-
`!wend: You hart spacers abast what you called bowrottin the
Egypha r e, lInt what ti b53 is daiag is baa-ma tiv %tw
it ails the "rte" bet The pw*.
hater: ELI Raw' is aEs? How, do ia
hetwe the pie. the aegi. e
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 Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/01/31: CIA-RDP05-01559R000400390043-6
'Imad: For example, with regard to the airlines between Egypt
and Libya. You have decided that planes coming. from Egypt
cannot land directly in Libya. Therefore, the Egyptian worker or
the Egyptian old lady, for example, has to fly to Tripoli via
Athens. Is this reasonable? The one paying the price is the
ordinary Egyptian citizen.
Mu'ammar: It was Husni Mubarak who closed the land bor-
ders...
'Imad: (Interrupting) I am talking about flights and not bor-
ders.
Mu'ammar: (Asking with anger) Why should the land borders
not be open?
`Imad: (With the same angry tone) Why not open the air
routes?
Mu'ammar: Because the land is nearer. Moreover, no Libyan
plane will land at Cairo airport, where Israeli planes land.
`Imad: Well, but Libya has planes that land at Heathrow
airport in London alongside Israeli El Al planes.
Mu'ammar: It is not permissible to have an Arab plane side by
side with an Israeli plane on Arab soil. (Adding angrily) How
nice! Will treason become a view meriting discussion?
'Imad: Treason is not a view meriting discussion, but it is the
Egyptian citizen who is paying the price.
Mu'ammar: (Protesting) Egypt is the apple of our eye. When
Al-Sadat concluded the "David stable" agreements, not one
single Egyptian worker in Libya was molested. But it is the
responsibility of the Egyptian citizen not to deal with "David
stable" agreements and to rid Egypt of them. Let the Egyptian
people come and live in Libya and declare that they are not with
the "David stable" agreements!
'Imad: You are talking about opening Libya for the Egyptian
people to come and live. And day and night you talk about
pan-Arabism and advocate it in your Green Book and all the
books. Do you know where I came from before I arrived in
Tripoli? I came to you, Brother Mu'ammar, from Cyprus, where
I did not need a visa to enter. Do you know that Libyan Airlines
in Cyprus prevented me from boarding the plane because I had
no visa, despite the fact that I am an Arab journalist. Is this
reasonable? Non-Arab, Christian Cyprus allows me to enter
without a visa while the unionist, Arab, and Muslim Jamahiriyah
refuses me?
Mu'ammar: (Sadly) I am against not issuing a Libyan entry
visa to every Arab citizen. I am in favor of the Arab citizens'
entering Libya with his personal identiy card issued in his
country. I will talk about this matter at the first people's congress
to discuss foreign affairs and call for the abolition of visas. I
believe that the question of visas is a shameful thing.
'Imad: Let met ask you about the intensive contacts being held
in order to hold a five-man summit among the Arab Maghreb
NORTH AFRICA
countries (Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Mauritania).
How far could this summit succeed, and what could it'.lead to?
Mu'ammar: Contacts between these countries have been going
on for some time with the aim of achieving unity. We hope that
the Algerian revolution will stand against the colonialist efforts
aimed at trying to prevent it from participating in the unity of
the Arab Maghreb states, which could be the nucleus of a greater
Arab unity. I am prepared to attend any meeting of the Arab
Maghreb states if it contributes to unity efforts, but if the
meetings aim at achieving other objectives, then I am not inter-
ested in participating in them.
`Imad: Are you in favor of a unity that could recognize the
distinctive character and the right of every party to have its own
internal political system?
Mu'ammar: I respect any Arab regime that would enter into
unity with me. I am now respecting and supporting King Hassan
I1's regime and will certainly not do anything against it, because
we belong to an Arab federation. In this federation every region
maintains its distinctive character and system of government. A
republic remains a republic,, a sultanate a sultanate, and a
monarchy a monarchy. (This is a radical departure by Colonel
al-Qadhdhafi, who until recently saw any unity as calling for
changing the government system and internal institutions in the
parties concerned)'
So if the inhabitants of a sultanate want to change the sultan or
the inhabitants of the Jamahiriyah want to change Mu'animar,
they are free. It is an internal matter.
'Imad: Can you respect a view that says: Mu'ammar, I
respect you but I do not want to be in the mire with you?
Mu'ammar: Nobody has a right to object to unity. To us,
anyone who is against unity is against the Arab people, and we
should fight and oppose them, because anyone who takes a stand
against unity aims to weaken it.
'Imad: ' Well, suppose that he wants unity with someone else,
other than you?
Mu'ammar: Fine, I support all steps toward unity in the Arab
world. I would even support unity between Egypt and Sudan,
although I disagree with their regimes..] strongly support the
GCC and I dream about the whole region becoming one state,
God willing. I dream about the two Yemens becoming one state,
and if Mauritania, Tunisia, and Algeria became one state I would
support that state.
'Imad: In other words you would support unity between
regimes you oppose.
Mu'ammar: I support the unity of the Arab nation. I have
already called for unity of the Arab Maghreb, for Egyptian-
Sudanese unity, and for Syrian-Lebanese unity. Seven or eight
united states are, in my opinion, stronger than 20 separate Arab
states.
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relations. It is clear that these relations are very tense. Despite
that, sorycthing quite different is happening. I am talking about
the continued "business" between the Jamahiriyah and the
United States. How do you reconcile the political differences
with the continued economic cooperation?
M u'ammar: That shows that U.S. policy is in conflict with U.S.
interests. The proof is that the United States supports Israel
against the Arab nation even though its interests in such an area
as the Arab world are greater and more durable that its interests
in such a racist and Zionist entity as Israel. Weare certain that
U.S. Zionism is at the core of U.S. policy.
'Imad: Does that mean that you cannot contemplate or.con-
ceive of a meeting between you and. U.S. President Ronald
Reagan'?
Mu'ammar: I am ready to meet and talk with any man any-
where in the world, except the Zionist enemy.
'Imad: Does that mean that you are not opposed to opening a
new page in U.S.-Libyan relations?
Mu'ammar: I am all for good relations between Libya 'and any
power in the world. As a superpower, the United States should
adopt a neutral, not hostile attitude to the people'who fight
imperialism. In the case of an afflicted people, such as the
Palestinian people, the United States should support the rights
of those people or at least adopt a neutral attitude to their
struggle for liberation, instead of supporting the Israeli enemy.
The United States, a superpower, is pitted today against 2 million
Libyan people.
'Imad: (Interrupting) Your official statistics.'say that Libya's
population is 3.4 million.
Mu'ammar: Say 3.5 or 4 million. What is important is this:
(Laughing) Is it reasonable for the'United States, with'all its
might, to stand against the Libyan people?
'Imad: Brother Mu'ammar, you are always talking about Arab
nationalism, but certain things make your commitment to that
slogan highly questionable. For example, you are working 'on a
project which, it has been said, will be the eighth wonder of the
world. I refer here to the "great river" project that will cost some
$20 billion. It has been said that the cable wires to be used in that
project are enough to go around the world 55 times. Since you
advocate Arab nationalism, how do you justify the fact that all
the studies, contracts, and installation work have been entrusted
to foreign companies; that is to British, French, German, Finnish,
and Korean companies? How do you justify the~fact that not a
single Arab company from anywhere between the Gulf and the
ocean is involved in this project?
Mu'ammar: Simply because the Arab companies did not come
forward.
'Imad: Is that possible?
Mu'ammar: They did not come forward. Do not talk about
Egypt in connection with this project. We cannot provide funds
to support the David stable. The David stable was an abominable
1P will
Q8
crime because it recognized the Zionist enemy, which we should
eliminate, not recognize.
'Imad: Brother Mu'ammar, there is a strange contradiction.
You say that with your third theory you have managed to surpass
traditional forms of government. Could the brain that managed
to do that not do something unconventional to get Egypt out of
Camp David? Which is closer to you: Nicaragua, which you
support, or Egypt? Furthermore, you ask Husni Mubarak to
abandon Camp David, but do you think that is an easy thing to
do?
Mu'ammar: Brother....
'Imad: `(Interrupting) Allow me to finish explaining my view-
point. First of all, you know that I personally, as a journalist and
as an Arab, was, am, and will always be against Camp David,
but I will try to explain to you the complexities of the situation
resulting from Camp David. There are two main problems:
1. The agreement means a U.S. role. The United States means
economic aid for Egypt, especially wheat, which comes to Egypt
by sea every 3 month's.
2. Making any uncalculated move to abrogate the agreements
could lead to the mobilization of Israeli forces in Sinai and drag
Egypt into a military situation currently not in its interest. The
Institute of Strategic Studies has confirmed that the Israeli army
is superior to the Arab armies in a ration of five to two in Israel's
favor if fighting were to break out today.
Mu'ammar: (Angi?ily)That is extremely disgraceful. Instead of
supplying the world with wheat, Egypt imports it from the United
States at the expense of its national sovereignty and in favor of
growth fora colonialist, aggressive entity armed with nuclear
weapons. Egypt has'the immortal Nile and it has skilled labor.
How could -it fall into' the grip of such a crisis? (Adding very
nervously) Well, brother, let Egypt come and take Libyan oil and
give us the Nile. You would then see how Libya could manage
to cultivate the land, feed'the Arabs, confront the United States,
and fight the Israelis. What a scandal!
'Imad: You are talking about what should be, but I am talking
about present realities.
Mu'ammar: (Interrupting) Whoever is responsible for this sit-
uation must disappear. By God, we will never leave him alone.
`Imad: Camp David was'not Husni Mubarak's doing. He inher-
ited it, and he also inherited the two most dangerous things about
Camp David. They are the Camp David economic class and the
feeble Arab reaction'to'these agreements.
Mu'ammar: Why does he not reject Camp David'? Why does
'he not wash his hands of it and tell the Israelis: I was not the
one who signed the Camp David agreements with you. The
Egyptian.people have rid themselves of the man who did sign it.
'Imad: Well, let us assume for the sake of argument (Mu'am-
mar laughs as I say that) that tomorrow morning Husni Mubarak
severs relations with Israel and abrogates Camp David. What
attitude would you take then'?
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W V
'Imad: You would support him, but what does that mean?
Would you fight alongside him?
Mu'ammar: We would fight with him and share our livelihood
and everything else with him, as did the immigrants [who accom-
panied the prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Medina] and
supporters. (There the colonel dropped his second bombshell,
sidestepping the original point in the course of the conversation).
Brother 'Imad, if Husni Mubarak were to say, without
announcing it publicly, that he was ready to meet Mu'ammar
at-Qadtrdtrafi to distvss ways of getting out of this mess, f wvattd
be ready to meet him, even if he said that he would abandon
Camp David in 5 years' time.
`Imad: If Mubarak wished to do that, would he have to do it in
writing and publicly, or could he send you such a letter secretly?
Niu ammar_ All i want hi~m to do is swirl n a Ie#ter - it tip
not have. to be, made. public - saying that he is prepared to meet
me to discuss means of abandoning Camp David. even in 5 years,
and to a of jaim Tatiiom toe` d Egy-pe s and the
Arab nation's predka?nent, and also saying that he is against the
Israelis and their .American allies, who are ene.mics of the Arab
nation. If that happened t would be walling to meet him anywhere
he eQcd-
Imad: You have never met Husni Mubarak personalty.
Mu`ammar. How is that? He was an officer in the Egyptian
Air Force. He often came to me in Tripoli, and I ordered the
s+aPply of missiles and other accessary equipment for him l Used
to carry missiles to Egypt on my own. shoulders - by God, on
my shoaaiders rastiii We in toe n ut
`towel- When did ihai ha a?
Mimammar- D wring the Ramadan ?A I &W3 was. I per-
ssacaiiy srpervisod the paakiag of tlae rice. I peat a peracimte
an my ttaetc aid k h far EgI pt 4m 34 liege 19~-t 3-
,lsl3d ;Irate rupsi aj Where were you between Ig and 30
Ramadam and wtmt rote did Libya play in the war?
y4ldauaar- fin cum= amass) Well, tube was a hn*-,
seat,mwaiFF&OaaresdafdeliwefshipsteasisEo' sPau
and the other seas to Labs lt-~ Plane s grassst wtte d arms slay
and dgbi. The f ibyan-Egypi road was opened Bas daily
traaaspartatiaa Gars.
`lmact Ct kl firma., > e b , WH m a yam
i vo of elcs g Witte Herb RI gtscers4r ct+grieeg twat period?
Mtea r- I sieved bim as a good s against the Ism
He saw how they staff his peek i dm Army_
I used to t1e ?P'k trot 4tastir t the Israelis rare in Hmm MnIrar-
ak s blood because the Haan expericaced war agate t1 . In
bsi; I saw firm as a rim, earn eager to tight the weary.
'(coact If yam in HmanMnbai k's aid bad
saooeeded Pomdent 4-Sochi as psi of the Arab Remise
of Egypt., sibs wraeld y- lieu do=?
Mu'ammar: By God, I would tell the Israelis this: For the
time being I do not intend to fight you. I am committed to a nation
and a people. The people have killed the man who signed
agreements with you. I am a part of a nation. When the entire
Arab nation meets and decides to recognize you, Israel, then I
will recognize you, but when the Arab nation says no to Israel
then I am committed to that rejection. In Mubarak's place I
would go to the Arabs and say: By God, my fate is linked to
yours. If you want to recognize [Israel] then you must do it
collectively, but if you do not want to recognize Israel then let
me join you, and if Israel attacks me you must stand with me.
`Imad- So you would agree to a truce with Israel until a time
when you could fight it.
Mu'ammar A truce has existed between the Arabs and Israel
since it was signed, but truce does not mean recognition. A truce
is a temporary thing.
'Imad Ash thalas the tcf Egypt, y m did make tiaai
decision and you severed relations with Israel, and supposing that
Israel then declared a general mobilization in Sinai and war
broke mat, b w the Arab nation did n s yon in that war,,
what would you do tied?
Mad a?xmar: Why would the Arabnatioo not suppot me then`'
`tea: Became the Arab stems is Imo.
Mti'ammar: I would be the first to support Mubarak if he
announced a severance of relations and if the military situation
deteriorated between hint and Israel. Before he announces his
decision Mubarak should contact as and say: Serowe. I
announce this serious del cet and before we attack Israel, I want
to sea it the matter to you and ask what you, Ma'a r. can
gm me? I wa . and s (memmg ec mimic and a iLary
aid ?tere from you, AID n.fz r.
If I tef Serra: Mwl?nlt, I am . with and wffl not SEPPO"
ten he has t &c right ei say= I ha unied to the Arab
=LL= but it did aaot ,smut me,, therefore 1 will purer my
previous Policy-1 nay openly on the peg s of your mogul. that,
if Muberak severs relations with tcraet. f will place all Liibya's
ra atrces at his d aL
Iran k TLe Arab an d alles rttiia~xi ba ace lain i as
who a t+rages terrorism and assassinatioaa. [ theretore ask )'Do
drwily, d6 you Wart the Mea of using vidcwe?
?ilea r Whet. vidcam?
`>Fiaesef: WI rat they call r tionavy si+altrec, that is,' when
sanume 3a10.ti .ter smamw a he babis s caraa-
trary to his own. An era is what Em been said about I. iibyau
t squads kUbg members of the Lira
Mri'auunav I am against assassination, awainst terrorism,
against hirntkM, Y. L WWWg i ocen+t tom. and, agaim*
&'i26- hagages to get SQmCkLing in return.
"lam Haut yor said that to the Ira !
Maasa What the h maim o is dkir awes 1 . I
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cannot control the Libyan people people and their revolutionary
committees if they want to liquidate some of them because "the
ones abroad are terrorists." I cannot impose anything on the
Libyan people.
'Imad: (Interrupting) I cannot believe that at all. I cannot
believe that Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi cannot prevent such
things. The people are convinced of what you tell them. If you
told them to stop the assassinations, they would stop them.
Mu'ammar: I will tell them to stop the assassinations, but I
assure you that the Libyans are convinced that the ones who are
abroad [members of the Libyan opposition] have been adopted by
the U.S. intelligence and trained by it in terrorism and subver-
sion, and have chosen armed action and must therefore be faced
in the same way.
'Imad: What about the opposition which has not opted for
armed action? Have you anything to say to them?
Mu'ammar: There is no such thing as oppostion. Opposition to
whom?
'Imad: Let us say those who hold different views to yours.
Mu'ammar: Let them come to Libya and say what they want
to say in the people's congresses.
'Imad: Who would guarantee that they would not be thrown in
prison or sentenced to death upon their arrival at Tripoli or
Banghazi Airport?
Mu'ammar: No. I guarantee that any person who returns to
Libya and obtains a membership card for the people's congresses,
and says what he wants to say, will not be harmed; but he should
not tell them that he belongs to the opposition because I do hold
no post that he can oppose me. If he disagrees with me, then let
him express his views in the people's congresses or sue me in
Libyan courts. Anyone who opposes now is in fact opposing not
me but the people's congresses, which represent all the Libyan
people. I guarantee that anyone wishing to return to Libya on
this basis will not be arrested or harmed. You can ask any of these
people to contact you and to tell you: lam returning to Libya.
You can then publish his name in AL-MAJALLAH and you can
then ascertain for yourself that he will attend the people's con-
gresses and play his role without any interference. What is
important is that he play his role and express his opinion in the
people's congresses. Anyone who wishes to call Mu'ammar al-
Qadhdhafi names should not do so abroad. He should come and
call me names in the people's congresses, and he will not be
harmed.
'Imad: With regard to the question of violence and interna-
tional violence, how true are the reports that speak of your
support for the "Red Brigades," the Japanese "Red Army," and
the "Irish Liberation Army" [as published] and your playing host
to "Carlos" in Libya? Is this true? Did it happen? Did it not
happen? Did it stop?
Mu'ammar: This is biased propaganda; this never happened. If
the people talk about "Carlos" and Libya, why do they not talk
about "Carlos" and other countries? Moreover, let met ask you,
when did Carlos carry out an operation in the interest of Libya?
Also, why do they not talk about the countries that support
Carlos, give him shelter, and train his men? Also, what does
Carlos do in Libya? With regard to the "Irish Army," I am with
the "Irish Liberation Army" and believe in the justice of its
cause.
'Imad: What about the reports that speak of payments of
$900,000 to the Basque separatists?
Mu'ammar: I do not know the Basques at all. l am only for the
liberation of Ceuta and Melilla because they are Arab islands
and Spain must leave them immediately.
'Imad: It is said that you are the only person to have fooled
French President Mitterrand. You have let him withdraw his
forces from Chad, but you have not withdrawn the Libyan forces
in return.
Mu'ammar: (Irritated) Brother, this is tendentious propaganda
by the Americans. I did not fool him. On the contrary, when I
met him I respected him very much and found that there is great
potential for cooperation between us. We agreed to set up a
Libyan-Greek-Syrian committee to carry out inspections in
northern and southern Chad. In fact as a result of dealing with
Mitterrand, I felt that he is a friend and is certainly not adopting
any hostile attitudes.
'Imad: Some people wonder how you could have a military
force in Chad and not have one in Lebanon?
Mu'ammar: We are prepared, provided they allow us, to move
our forces in [to Lebanon]. But if I send my forces that were in
Chad into southern Lebanon, will they accept that? Not a single
Libyan soldier is allowed to enter southern Lebanon.
'Imad: Who would refuse?
Mu'amrnar: (Laughing) The Arabs...the Arabs in Lebanon.
'Imad: There are no Arabs in Lebanon except Syria.
Mu'ammar: (Laughing louder) Syria is not Lebanon.
'Imad: My last question, why are you called "the world's most
dangerous man"?
Mu'ammar: The United States understands that I am a man
who knows his correct path, that I want to unite the Arab nation
through the Palestine war, that I am hostile to imperialism and
friendly with the socialist countries. My program destroys the
U.S. imperialist program and makes me the number one enemy
of the United States. I am "the world's most dangerous man" not
because I am fighting, but because I am seeking to unite the Arab
nation. The unity of this nation is the greatest danger to U.S.
interests, because this area is a U.S. playground and the scene of
its operations. if the United States loses the scene of its operations
then it will be cut down to size. For this reason they are trying to
win the sympathy of naive people by portraying me as a terrorist
and the most dangerous man in the world.
'Imad: Does this irritate you or make you feel proud?
Mu'ammar: With respect to the governments and forces hostile
to us, I feel proud to be the world's most dangerous man to them.
But I am dismayed that such talk should mislead millions of
simple people.
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 Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/01/31: CIA-RDP05-01559R000400390043-6
V. 25 Jan 85 Q i i NORTH AFRICA
'I mad: Brother Mu'ammar, thank you for your patience, time, recognition of the regime in Khartoum which has,,'lost all
and magnanimity. credibility is indeed disgraceful.
In view of the low level the Sudanese regime has reached, we
AI-Qadhdhafi Message to Arab Leaders on Sudan should cooperate with the fraternal Sudanese people to save them
LD250945 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 0812 GMT 25 Jan 85 from the grip of this unjust regime, or work for the isolation of
. this regime which has wronged Arabism and Islam by severing
[Text] Tripoli, 25 Jan (JANA) - The brother commander of the our relations with it as the minimum measure.
revolution has addressed a message to kings and presidents of the
Arab countries concerning the malpractices of Sudan's ruling God's peace, mercy, and blessings be with you.
regime, which have gone beyond the boundaries of.government
responsibility. Here is the text of the message:
Economy Minister Visits Spain, Meets Counterpart
Sudan, which links the Arab nation and Africa and which we
hoped would play a basic role in bolstering and strengthening the For Madrid coverage of the visit to Spain by Economy Minister
ties between the Arab and Islamic nation on the one hand and Musa Ahmad Abu Furaywah'and his meeting in Madrid with
Africa on the other, has suppressed and terrorized the Sudanese his Spanish counterpart, Miguel Boyer, see the Spain section of
people, and has become a hotbed for Zionist moves and a the 25 January Western Europe DAILY REPORT.
springboard for the continued Zionist aggression against the
Arab nation, the last manifestation of which was the migration
of the Falasha Jews via Sudan to the, Zionist entity in the MAURITANIA
occupied territory.
Senegalese Foreign Minister Leaves for Home
The Sudanese regime has gone beyond all norms of logic and LD242217 Nouakchott Domestic Service in Arabic 2030 GMT
reason and beyond the boundaries of government responsibility. 24 Jan 85
The Sudanese people now live in a choking climate under, the
aegis of a regime which justifies the shedding of the blood.of [Text] The Senegalese foreign affairs minister and accompanying
innocent people as an end in itself. This is carried out every day delegation left the capital this evening after their reception this
with unlimited ruthlessness, thereby attributing to Islam things morning by Colonel Maayouia Ould Sid Ahmed Taya, chairman
that do not belong, defiling its teachings and tolerant principles. of the Military Committee for National Salvation [CMSN] and
The whole world now looks aghast at the practices of the Suda- president of the republic. The delegation handed a message from
nese regime as are extremely foolish and contradictory,. the Senegalese president, Abdou Diouf, to the president concern-
ing existing bilateral relations.
Numayri's actions remind us of `Ali al-Mansur, who was given
title of the one who rules by God's decree and who met his'de'ath The Senegalese minister was seen off at the airport by Lieutenant
because he went far beyond the limits of reason with his irrespon- Colonel Ahmed Ould Minnih, member of the CMSN and min-
sible actions. He deified himself and ordered people. to kneel ister of foreign affairs and cooperation; advisers to the minister;
before him. He changed the people's days into nights and their and the head of the'Africa department at the Foreign Ministry.
nights into days: He who opened his shop in daytime was
flogged and he who closed his shop at night was accused of On leaving the capital, the Senegalese guest praised the results
disobedience. His policies were a collection of contradictions, of his visit to our country. He also praised the excellent relations
oddities, and fads. existing between Mauritania and the Senegal.
The conditions in Cairo under this ruler by God's decree are
similar to Sudan's conditions under Numayri's regime: ? Con- Army Chief Visits France, Meets Hernu, Counterpart
tradiction, madness, hallucination, oppression, and terror have
become the distinguishing characteristics of this oppressive For Paris AFP coverage of the visit to France by Army Chief of
regime, inspiring sympathy for the fraternal Sudanese people. Staff Colonel Ould `Abdallah and his,,meeting with French
Defense Minister Charles Hernu and French Armed Forces
Our countries' link with the regime in Sudan through member- Chief of Staff Jeannou.Lacaze, see the France section of the 24
ship in the Arab League discredits the Arab nation before the January Western Europe DAILY REPORT.
world, for the nation is like one family and if a madman or a fool
happens to emerge on the scene, he should be expelled from the
family. MOROCCO
RISALAT AL-UMMAH: Maghreb Summit Scrapped
Because Sudan is a member of the Arab League and because the LD241953 Rabat MAP in English 1249 GMT 24 Jan 85
Sudanese people are our brothers, this irresponsible condition
and these lunatic, foolish practices of the Sudanese regime, which [Text] Rabat, Jan 24 (MAP) - "The Arab mediations and
so greatly wrong Islam and its teachings, have reflected badly on contacts held recently between the states of the Arab Maghreb
us and have consequently defamed all Arabs. Our continued came to a conclusion setting aside the holding of a Maghreban
Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/01/31: CIA-RDP05-01559R000400390043-6