AD-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED ON TERRORISM

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400370090-6
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 12
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 3, 2012
• Sequence Number: 90
• Publication Date: July 26, 1976
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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AL-QADHDHAFI INTERVIEWED ON TERRORISM
Hamburg DER SPIEGEL in German 26 Jul 76 pp 77-78
[Text] DER SPIEGEL: Mr President, a short time ago you told the Kuwaiti
paper AL-RAI AL-AMM that you consider it your duty to support justice and
freedom in every corner of this world. Does this mean support for each
and every liberation movement?
Al-Qadhdhafi: What are the liberation movements? Fighters for freedom and
justice and against suppression and barbarism. The emancipation of man
from suppression is a just cause, and it is therefore the duty of all men
to support it.
DER SPIEGEL: Where does one draw the line? The SWAPO in Southwest Africa,
for example, is an internationally accepted liberation movement. But also
.small groups, like the ETA in the Basque region of Spain, consider them-
selves liberation movements. Do you share this view?
A1-Qadhdhafi: Definitely. It must be stated here that the fighters of a
liberation movement alone bear the responsibility for their emancipation
coming about. We have no right to make a judgment about it. We know
exactly what a liberation movement is. It is any movement which resists
racism and colonialism, such as Namibia against South Africa. The whole
world must assist and support it.
DER SPIEGEL: Once more: Where does one draw the line? Are the German
Baader-Meinhof Group and the Japanese Red Army liberation movements?
A1-Qadhdhafi: We do not know these groups or movements, and we have no
ties with them. We support them neither morally nor materially.
DER SPIEGEL: When do you give direct support to a liberation movement?
In other words, who receives something?
A1-Qadhdhafi: Sometimes we lend direct assistance. But there are situa-
tions where we find it difficult or impossible to lend direct assistance,
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although we would like to and should. Then all that remains is for us at
least to lend moral assistance. For instance, if Namibia and South Africa
were neighbors of Libya, we would long since have fought with our armed
forces on the side of the liberation movements of these countries against
the racists and colonialists. There are, however, many obstacles and diffi-
culties standing in the way.
DER SPIEGEL: Under what circumstances do you consider the use of force
justified?
A1-Qadhdhafi: I consider the use of force justified when a colonized and
suppressed people demands its liberation and the colonialist or suppressor
does not want to give up. Then there is only one thing left for the people
to do: to seize arms in order to expel the usurper from the country--in
other words, to apply revolutionary force.
DER SPIEGEL: The Palestinian resistance regards guerrilla operations in
Israel as military actions. Do you also consider the use of force against
Israeli installations outside Palestine to be justified?
A1-Qadhdhafi: The responsibility and consequences for this must be borne
by those who undertake it and justify it. We cannot decide what is right
for them and what is wrong for them. Personally I believe that all Pales-
tinian forces must be employed for the liberation of occupied Palestine.
DER SPIEGEL: How about a German Lufthansa plane flying to Tel Aviv. Can
it, must it be hijacked?
A1-Qadhdhafi: Hijacking planes or blowing up civilian planes as well as
terrorizing civilians, we regard as acts of terror and crimes. Libyan law
punishes such culprits very severely. We do not regard such acts as "acts
of liberation"; we oppose such fighting methods. They have nothing, nothing
at all, to do with actions of liberation.
DER SPIEGEL: In your opinion, was the attack against the Israeli Olympic
team in Munich justified?
A1-Qadhdhafi: As I. have said, I do not dispose over and do not decide about
such culprits. And I cannot decide what they want to do or do not want to
do. That is their business; they must bear the responsibility. I do not
know their motives and justifications.
DER SPIEGEL: How do you then explain the fact that those taking hostages
in all kinds of hijackings time and again choose your country, Libya, as
their final destination? For example, a year ago the Japanese of the Red
Army, and later the group headed by Carlos which abducted the OPEC ministers
in Vienna?
A1-Qadhdhafi: First, the abductors of the Arab OPEC ministers did not get
off or remain in Libya but in Tunisia and Algeria, i.e., in another country.
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Secondly, Libya's share in landings of hijacked planes is no greater than
the share of many countries of this world which have been forced to permit
the landing of hijacked planes. As for the hijacked Japanese plane, we
took a humanitarian action for which the world ought to thank us: if we had
not permitted it to land in our country, it would have crashed with everyone
aboard. The hijackers had threatened to blow up the plane.
DER SPIEGEL: What happened to the Japanese?
A1-Qadhdhafi: They were taken to court.
DER SPIEGEL: And the Carlos group?
A1-Qadhdhafi: What has Libya got to do with Carlos? He did not get off in
my country--neither he nor his group. I had not heard of his name until he
committed his act of piracy. I do not know him; I do not even know what
country he is from. Incidentally, why do you not ask President Sadat about
it? (He laughs) For it was he who made the charge that Carlos was with
me. He made that pronouncement; therefore he must know him well. He knows
who Carlos is, where he is from, all he can do, and his whereabouts. You
can confidently put all these questions to Sadat, and he will be able to
answer them all.
DER SPIEGEL: The Air France plane with Israeli passengers which recently
was hijacked to.Entebbe was allowed to refuel in Libya. Why did you not
permit the exchange of hostages against imprisoned liberation fighters in
your country?
A1-Qadhdhafi: The hijackers of that plane did not ask anything from us.
They landed in our country, and we thought they wanted to leave us some
hostages. But they did not do so. They demanded that we refuel their
plane. They threatened to blow up the plane together with all the pas-
sengers. To prevent the plane from being blown up, we decided to let the
plane refuel. There was a very sick woman on board. We admitted her to
one of our hospitals and extended medical care to her. The plane flew on
without our knowing where, and without our knowing for what reason it had
been hijacked. The hijackers did not talk to us about it. But they stated
very clearly: Fuel, or we blow up the plane.
DER SPIEGEL: The Western countries are demanding that no country any
longer admit people taking hostages and hijackers, this being the only
effective means of combating terrorism. What do you think of this demand?
A1-Qadhdhafi: It means that every hijacked plane will crash or explode
in midair and that, as a result, many innocent victims will die. I am
against terrorism and hijacking. I am for extirpating terrorism and for
extirpating hijackings. As I have said, hijackings are crimes and acts
of piracy. But the idea being proposed cannot be implemented. Just imagine
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what would happen if all at once all airports of the world were to be closed
down. To fight terrorism, its causes must be eliminated.
DER SPIEGEL: This leads us to the question: What is terrorism?
A1-Qadhdhafi: Terrorism is the perpetration of an action intended to
terrorize civilians. Thus, there exists a lot of individual terrorism in
the United States. A madman, psychopath or criminal, adventurer or robber,
takes one or more hostages to obtain ransom, say, a million dollars. I
consider that a terrorist act. It is not acceptable to anyone in this
world. The struggle for freedom and emancipation, however, cannot be re-
garded as terrorism. If it could, half of today's heads of state would
be terrorists.
DER SPIEGEL: Perhaps that is the case. Do you regard resistance against
an occupying power as terrorism?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Resistance against an occupying power is not terrorism. The
French resistance. against the Nazi occupation was not terrorism. After all,
there were also German groups fighting the Nazi rule in Germany. Were those
people terrorists? Certainly not. Today the United States is commemorating
the anniversary of its liberation from the English suppressors. During the
liberation the Americans destroyed English ships and installations. Today
they are celebrating the victory of their act of force which enabled America
to gain independence from the English.
DER SPIEGEL: Of course, there are justifications for using force.
Al-Qadhdhafi: If President Ford and Queen Elizabeth of England today appeal
to the Angolan president to pardon the condemned white mercenaries, both
Ford and Elizabeth, are nothing else than protectors and promoters of ter-
rorists. For any person knows, after all, that mercenaries are professional
killers.
DER SPIEGEL: There is never any such thing as mercy for mercenaries?
A1-Qadhdhafi: Never. Incidentally, why is it not terrorism when the Euro-
pean or the Western countries use force? Why only when the peoples of the
Third World use force? The appeal by Ford and Elizabeth is a reprehensible
act. The world should condemn it. I cannot imagine how a state with a
smidgen of morality or shame can demand a pardon for mercenaries and ter-
rorists.
DER SPIEGEL: We thank you for this interview, Mr President.
8790
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V. 27Jul76 NORTH AFRICA
ALGERIA
COMMENTARY RAPS MOROCCO-MAURITANIA DEFENSE PACT
Algiers Domestic Service in French 1300 GMT 24 Jul 76 ID
[Excerpts] The Moroccan-Mauritanian military pact which resulted from the talks be-
tween King Hassan II and President Ould Daddah constitutes a further escalation of
tension in the Maghreb and an admission by the two regimes of their inability to
finish off the Saharan fighters for the liberation of their country. Mentioning a
comment by the Moroccan foreign minister on the talks which took place in the Moroccan
capital, APS considers that the statements by the Moroccan minister show the wish of
the Moroccan and the Mauritanian authorities to considerably exacerbate the threaten-
ing escalation of recent months directed against Algeria.
The Moroccan statement is in itself an admission, the agency adds. It recalls that
the military situation is by no means peaceful for the 30,000 Rabat soldiers and the
Nouakchott contingents, who are continually harassed by the Saharan fighters.
The Algerian agency adds that Mr Laraki's words fit in with the (?forward) policy
practiced by the Moroccan monarchy ever since it discovered that the Saharan issue
is not closed. No doubt it should also be mentioned that this military pact is in
fact an act of aggression, not only against the Saharan people, but also against revo-
lutionary Algeria; this pact sanctions a de facto situation. Even before the scanda-
lous Madrid agreement, a deal to which Moktar Ould Daddah acceded and whose final aim
is to sell out Mauritanian sovereignty, the guidelines for the policy of the Nouakchott
rulers were being drawn by the strategists of the court. They were all leading towards
the realization of the dream of an anachronistic monarchy, interested in creating an
expanded Morocco.
The APS commentary stresses that the declaration by the Moroccan foreign minister comes
at a time when certain international press organs are highlighting the desire of Moroccan
military men to use the right of pursuit against the Saharan fighters. This right of
pursuit to them means penetrating into Algerian territory, in particular into the
Tindouf region; it entails finding Saharan fighters there whom they cannot catch in
Saharan territory, where they carry out their operations against the occupying forces.
LIBYA
AL-QADHDHAFI OUTLINES OPINION ON TERRORISM
Hamburg DER SPIEGEL in German 26 Jul 76 pp 77-78 DW
[Interview with Col Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council
of Libya, by reporter Adel Elias in Tripoli--date not given]
[Text] SPIEGEL: Mr President, you declared recently in the Kuwaiti paper AR-RA'Y AL-!AMM
that you consider it your duty to act in every corner of this world for justice and free-
dom. Does this mean support for all liberation movements?
Al-Qadhdhafi: What are the liberation movements doing? They are fighting for freedom
and justice and against oppression and barbarism. Emandipation of man from oppression
is a just cause, and it is, therefore, the duty of all people to support it.
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SPIEGEL: Where is the limit? SWAPO of South-West Africa, for instance, is an inter-
nationally accepted liberation movement. But smaller groups, too, such as ETA in the
Spanish Basque country consider themselves liberation movements. Do you share this
opinion?
A) Qpdhdhafi: In any case, it must be said here that the fighters of a liberation
movement are bearing the sole responsibility for the coming about of their emancipa-
tion. We do not have the right to judge it. It is absolutely clear to us what con-
stitutes a liberation movement, one which is acting against racism and colonialism,
such as Namibia against South Africa. The whole world must help and support it.
SPIEGEL: Once again: Where is the limit? Are the German Baader-Meinhof group and
the Japanese Red Army liberation movements?
Al-Qadhdhafi: We do not know these groups or movements, and we have no connection
with them. We are supporting them neither morally nor materially.
SPIEGEL: When are you supporting a liberation movement directly? In otherwords:
Who gets something?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Sometimes we help directly. But there are situations where it is diffi-
cult or Impossible for us to help directly, although we want to and should help direct-
ly. All we can do then is give at least moral help. For instance: If Namibia and
South Africa had been neighbors of Libya, we would have fought long ago with our armed
forces at the side of the liberation movement against racists and colonialists. But
there are many obstacles and difficulties in the way.
Al-Qadhdhafi: I think that using force is justified if a colonialized and oppressed
people is demanding its liberation, and if the colonialist or oppressor does not want
to give up. Then the people can do only one thing: take up arms in order to expel
the usurper from the country. In other words: apply revolutionary force.
SPIEGEL: Guerrilla operations in Israel are considered by the Palestine resistance
as military actions. Do you think that applying force against Israeli installations
outside Palestine is justified?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Responsibility and the consequences must be borne by those who are
undertaking and justifying it. We cannot decide what is right or wrong for them. I
am of the opinion that all Palestinian forces must be used for liberating occupied
Palestine.
SPIEGEL: Now about a German Lufthansa plane flying to Tel Aviv? Can it be hijacked?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Hijacking planes or blowing up civilian planes as well as terrorizing
civilians are crimes and acts of robbery to us. Libyan law punishes such criminals
most severely. We do not consider such deeds as a "liberation act" and we are against
such methods of fighting. They have nothing, nothing at all to do with liberation
actions.
SPIEGEL: Do you think that the assassination of the Israeli team at the Munich
Olympics was justified?
Al-Qadhdhafi: I said I do not have command or control over such perpetrators. I
cannot decide what they must do and what they must not do. This is up to the perpe-
trators. They must bear the responsibility. I do not know their motives or justifica-
t ions .
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SPIECFEL: How do you explain the fact that the people taking hostages in the hijacking
of planes always name your country, Libya, as the place of destination? One year
ago, for instance, it was the Japanese of the Red Army, and later on it was the
Carlos group which kidnapped the OPEC ministers in Vienna.
Al-Qadhdhaf is First, the kidnapers of the Arab OPEC ministers did not get out or
stay inLibya, but in Tunis and Algiers, which are in other countries. Second, the
share of Libya in regard to hijacked planes. is not higher than the shares of many
other countries of this world which have been forced to agree to the landing of
hijacked planes. As regards the hijacked Japanese plane, we performed a humanitarian
deed for which the world sould be grateful to us: Had we not permitted the landing,
the plane would have crashed with all passengers. The kidnapers threatened to blow
the plane up.
SPIEGEL: What happened to the Japanese?
Al-Qadhdhafit They had to go to court.
SPIEQEL.: And the Carlos group?
Al-Qadhdhaf is What has Libya to do with Carlos? He did not get out here, neither
he nor his group. I have heard his name only when he committed the act of piracy.
Ido not know him, I do not even know from which country he comes. By the way, why
don't you ask President as-Sadat (laughing)? He said that Carlos was with, me. He
told it to all the world, so he must know him well. He knows who Carlos is, where
he comes from, what he can do and when he is coming or going. So you can very well
ask as-Sadat all these questionsl. He will be able to answer all of them.
SPIEaEL: The Air France plane which was recently hijacked to Entebbe was permitted
to refuel in Libya. Why did you not permit the exchange of hostages for arrested
freedom fighters in your country?
Al-Qadhdhafi: The hijackers of this plane did not demand anything from us. They
landed in our country and we thought they would leave some hostages with us. But
they did not do it. They demanded that we refuel their plane. They threatened
otherwise to blow up the plane with all passengers. In order to avoid the blowing
up of the plane, we decided to have the plane refueled. A very sick woman was aboard
the plane. We took her to one of our hospitals and had a physician attend her.
The plane took offwithout our knowing where to or for what reason it had been hi-
jacked. The kidnapers did not discuss it with us. They plainly said: Either fuel
or it will be blown up.
SPIEGE L: Western states demand that,no country must accept people taking hostages
or the kidnapers of planes, claiming that t is is the only way to fight terrorism
effectively. What do you think of this demand?
Al-Qadhdhafi: It means that every plane will crash or be blown up in the air, and
that many innocent victims will ha to die hat way. I am ;against terrorism and
again tl the hijacking ofi planes. Ii am;foreel inating? ter orism and eliminating
i i s 1,
jacking~ ofeplanes. e ,As said,, ;hjacki?planes "' a;c~rfine and. an act of
the pira hcy. But, the idea, as outlined, 4~.((anriot beimpl'emen;t d' 1Imagine,l if all airports,
of the world' would be suddenly clos~d, what would happeh?'If you want to fight
terrorism, you mdstieliminatel?its reasons.
SPIF.QEL: This lekdsl us to the questions What i terrorism?(
Al-Qadhdhafi: Terrorism is the implementation of an action aimed at terrorizing civilians.
There is much individual terrorism in the United States: A madman, psychopath, criminal,
adventurer or robber takes one or several hostages to blackmail them for $1 million, for
instance. For me this is an act of terrorism. Nobody in the world can accept it. But the
fight for freedom and emancipation cannot be considered as terrorism. Otherwise more
than half of today's state leaders would be terrorists.
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SPIEGEL: Maybe this is how it is. Do you consider resistance against an occupation force
as terrorism?
Al-Qadhdhafi: Resistance against an occupation force is not terrorism. French resistance
against Nazi occupation was not terrorism. There were German groups, too, fighting against
the Nazi regime in Germany. Were these people terrorists? Certainly not. Today the
United States is celebrating the anniversary of its liberation from the British oppressors.
The Americans at that time destroyed British ships and installations. Today they are
celebrating the victory of their violence which helped America to become independent of
the British.
Al-Qadhdhafi: If President Ford and Queen Elizabeth of England are appealing today to the
state president of Angola to pardon the sentenced white mercenaries, both of them, Ford and
Elizabeth, are nothing but protectors and promoters of terrorism. Everybody in this world
knows that mercenaries are professional killers.
Al-Qadhdhafit Never. By the way, why is it not terrorism if European or Western States
are applying force? Why only if the force is being applied by people of the Third World?
The appeals of Ford and Elizabeth are aiwioked deed. The world should condemn it. I
cannot imagine how a state with a bit of morals or decency can demand clemency for
mercenaries or terrorists.
SPIEGEL: Mr President, we thank you for this talk.
ZIONISM SYMPOSIUM RESUMES IN TRIPOLI
Tripoli ARNA in English 1817 GMT 26 Jul 76 LD
[Text] Tripoli, July 26 ARNA--The international symposium on Zionism and racism resumed its
session here today and listened to research papers on the role of the Zionist enemy in the
service of neocolonialism and the colonial and settler nature of the concept of Zionism.
The research revealed the practices of Zionism for extending its scope of colonial influence,
dominating the African economy to employ it in the service of international monopolies and
alleging that Israel is an oasis for democracy in the world.
The research also exposed the expansionist aggressive policy of Zionism and the economic
deterioration and social upheavals suffered by the Zionist enemy and considered world
Zionism a threat to world peace and security.
Addressing the symposium, the representative of Uganda reviewed the criminal methods followed
by Zioxiisa against independent peoples- and- its endeavors, to dominate-the world economically.
politically and culturally. He also referred to the savage Zionist raid on the Entebbe air-
port and spoke highly of the stance of the L.A.R. and leader of its revolution, Colonel
Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, towards the ordeal which befell Uganda as well as towards African
causes. A member of the Argentine delegation also made a speech in which he extolled the
courageous and noble stances of the Great First of September Revolution and its leader,
Col. Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi, towards all liberation causes and freedomfighters.
Al-Qadhdhafi Addresses Symposium
Tripoli ARNA in English 0800 GMT 27 Jul 76 LD
[Text] Tripoli, July 27, ARNA--Colonel Mufammar al-Qadhdhafi, chairman of the Revolution
Command Council, yesterday attended the international seminar on Zionism and racial dis-
crimination.
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Col al-Qadhdhafi listened to lectures given by participants including Professor Pierre
Partence, professor of international law at Brussels University, Ralph Stewart, member
of the house of deputies of Canada, Sulayman Ahmad, member of the house deputies of
Mauritius, and others.
Col al-Qadhdhafi also listened to research on racist relations between the Israelis and
South Africa delivered by Professor Mark Stephens from an American university, Professor
Amilio Mandorani from Madrid University and Professor Abdul Malek Auda, from the University
of Cairo, who is the dean of the faculty of information.
Col al-Qadhdhafi addressed the seminar and made it clear that Zionism and racism in South
Africa have been internationally and politically condemned through the United Nations
resolutions. These resolutions condemned Zionism, racism and segregation because of
Dolour or race and called for combatting them.
Colonel al-Qadhdhaf i added: This international seminar has come to perpetuate the con-
demnation from philosophical, intellectual and scientific aspects.
Consequently the world politicians and scholars have decided that the combat of racists
in occupied Palestine, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namibia and any other place is a must, as
it is a historical consequence, politically deemed necessary by the United Nations and
VRsilosophically and intellectually approved by this seminar.
Colonel al-Qadhdhafi asserted that the existing bridge between the Israelis and South
Africa is a concrete evidence of the nature of the two regimes.
He emphasised that the pathway of genuine peace is the repatriation of the Palestinian
people to their lands, but the world imperialism led by the Unified States is currently
behaving as a protector and ally of racists.
Colonel ul.Qadhdhafi asserted the Libyan Arab Republic's attitude is against racism and
racists, as it. is expressing the conscience of the world and international legality.
Tripoli ARIA in English 0808 GNP 27 Jul 76 LD
(Text] Tripoli, LAR, July 27, ARNA--Ahmad al-Shahati, secretary of foreign affairs at
the Secretariat General of General People's Congress received here yesterday the Soviet
ambassador to the Libyan Arab Republic.
During the meeting, the Soviet ambassador conveyed a verbal message to him from the Central
Committee of the Soviet Communist Party for the political organisation in the L.A.R.
The ambassador expressed appreciation of the good relations linking the two friendly
countries.
He also pointed out to the role played by the L.A.R. for exposing the reactionaries and
imperialists and her support to the liberation movements all over the world.
The foreign affairs secretary also received the Nast German ambassador to the Libyan
Arab Republic. The ambassador handed over to the secretary a statement issued by the
Central Committee of Unified Socialist Party in East Germany about the situation in
Lebanon.
Al-Shabati also received socialist parties' delegations from Spain, the Soviet Union,
P..,e-A 9m.?40a and n..itain and Swiss and American Journalists.
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LAOS, LIBYA TO ESTABLISH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS
Tripoli ARNA in Arabic 1605 GMT 26 Jul 76 LD
(Text] Tripoli, 26 July --It has been decided to establish diplomatio'-,relations between
the LAR and the Lao People's Democratic Republic at ambassadorial level.
A statement was issued in Tripoli and Vientiane this morning; it said that to further
the policies of the LAR and the Lao People's Democratic Republic which aim for the bolster-
ing of friendship and cooperation with all peace-loving countries and out of their desire
to strengthen the relations of friendship between the LAB and the Lao People's Democratic
Republic, the two sides have agreed to establish political relations between the two
countries on the ambassadorial level.
Tripoli AMA in Arabic 0800 GMT 25 Jul 76 LD
(Text] Tripoli, 25 July--ARNA has learned from informed sources that the LAR has recalled
its ambassador to Saudi Arabia for consultations on the correctness of As-Sadat's recent
statement regarding Saudi Arabia that Saudi Arabia and Sudan have been included in a mili-
tary alliance against the LAR people and revolution.
MOROCCO
AGREEMENT RESOLVES BELGIAN LANDS DISPUTE
Casablanca AL-BAYANE in French 13 Jul 76 p 1 WA
(Test) Rabat, 12 July--The minister of Finance. and the Belgian ambassador to Rabat yesterday
signed an agreement resolving the Moroccan-Belgian disputes arising from the degree of 2
March 1973 concerning the recovery of lands. The agreement provides for indemnification
payments for Belgian citizens whose lands were appropriated by the Moroccan state.
SUDAN
TRIAL OF MSRCENARIBS CONTINUES IN OMDURMAN
Cairo MENA in Arabic 1655 GMT 26 Jul 76 JN
[Test] Khartoum, 26 July--At the second session it held in Omdurman today, the state
security court heard a statement by the first prosecution witness in the case against some
39 of the mercenaries who participated in the abortive Libyan invasion of Sudan.
The statement indicates that all the defendants have admitted that they were responsible
for the occupation of strategic positions in Omdurman and that they were deployed in those
positions at 0500 on Friday, 2 July, in order to control them and eliminate anyone who got
in their way.
In their statements, which were read by the first prosecution witness, the defendants said
that they had received initial training in Ethiopia, after which they were transferred to
Libya, placed in training camps in the Libyan desert and in the La-'Uwaynat area on the
Sudanese border and trained by Libyan officers.
The witness further said that the defendants were trained on all kinds of weapons, that
some of them had been placed in the military training academy of the Libyan Army.and that
they had received money during their time in Ethiopia and Libya.
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Gesprach
,,Was hat Libyen mit Carlos zu tun?"
Libyens Staatschef Muammar el-Gaddafi Ober- den Terrorismus
SPIEGEL: Herr President, Sie ha- gen Siidafrika. Hier muf3 die ganze
tung ,,EI-Rai el-Arm" erklart, daB Sie
es fur Ihre Pflicht halten, sich in jeder
Ecke in dieser Welt fur Gerechtigkeit
and Freiheit einzusetzen. Bedeutet dies
Unterstutzung fur samtliche Be-
freiungsbewegungen?
GADDAFI: Wer sind die Be-
freiungsbewegungen? Es sind diejeni-
gen, die fur Freiheit and Gerechtigkeit
and gegen Unterdruckung and Barba-
rei kampfen. Die Emanzipation der
Menschen von Unterdruckung 1st eine
gerechte Sache, and es ist daher die
Pflicht aller Menschen, sic zu unter-
stutzen.
SPIEGEL: Wo liegt die Grenze? Die
Swapo in SUdwestafrika zum Beispiel
ist eine international akzeptierte Be-
freiungsbewegung. Aber auch kleine
Gruppcn, wie die Eta im spanischen
Baskenland, sehen sich als Befreiungs-
bewegung an. Teilen Sie diese Ansicht?
GADDAFI: Auf jeden Fall. Hier
muB festgestellt werden, daf3 die
Kampfer einer Freiheitsbewegung al-
lein die Verantwortung fur die Ei tste-
hung ihrer Emanzipation tragen. Wir
haben nicht das Recht, fiber sic zu ur-
teilen. Fur tins ist ganz klar, was eine
Befreiungsbewegung 1st: jede Bewe-
gung, die gegen Rassismus and Kolo-
nialismus aufbegehrt, wie Namibia ge-
DER SPIEGEL, Nr. 31/1976
SPIEGEL: Nochmals: Wo liegt die
Grenze? Sind die deutsche Baader/
Meinhof-Gruppe and die Japanische
Rote Armee Freiheitsbewegungen?
GADDAFI: Wir kennen diese Grup-
pen Oder Bewegungen nicht,? and wir
haben keinc Verbindung zu ihnen. Wir
unterstutzen sic weder moralisch noch
materiell.
SPIEGEL: Wann unterstUtzen Sie
eine Freiheitsbewegung direkt? Mit an-
deren Wortcn: Wer bekommt etwas?
GADDAFI: Manchmal helfen wir
direkt. Aber es gibt Situationen, wo es
fur uns schwer oder unmoglich ist, die-
rekt zu hclfen, obwohl wir Berne direkt
helfen wollten and sollten. Hier bleibt
fur uns nur, wenigstens moralische Hil-
fe zu leisten. Zum Beispiel: Wenn Na-
mibia and Sudafrika Nachbarn Liby-
ens waren, hatten wir schon langst mit
unscren Streitkraften auf der Seite der
Befreiungsbewegungen dieser Lander
gegen die Rassisten and Kolonialisten
gekampft. Aber es gibt viele Hindernis-
se and Schwierigkeiten, die im Wege
stehen.
SPIEGEL: Unter welchen Voraus-
setzungen halten Sic uberhaupt Gewalt
fiir gerechtfertigt?
GADDAFI: Ich halte die Anwen-
dung von Gewalt fur gerechtfertigt,
wenn ein kolonisiertes and unterdrilck-
tes Volk seine Befreiung fordert and
der Kolonialist oder Unterdrucker
nicht aufgeben will. Dann bleibt die-
sem Volk nur eines: zu den Waffen zu
greifen. um den Usurpator aus dem
Lande zu treiben, mit anderen Worten:
revolutionare Gewalt anzuwenden.
SPIEGEL: Guerilla-Operationen in
Israel gelten fur den paliistinensischen
Widerstand als militarische Aktionen.
Halten Sie auch Gcwalt gegen Einrich-
tungen der Israelis auf3erhalb Palasti-
nas fur gerechtfertigt?
GADDAFI: Verantwortung and
Konsequcnzen dafiir mussen von denen
getragen werden, die das unternehmen
and rechtfertigen. Wir ki nnen nicht
entscheiden, was fur sie richtig and was
fur sic falsch 1st. Ich selbst bin der Mei-
nung, daB alle palastinensischen Krafte
fiir die Befreiung des besetzten Palasti-
na eingesetzt werden mussen.
SPIEGEL: Wie ist es mit einer Deut-
schen-Lufthansa-Maschine, die nach
TO Aviv fliegt? Kann, muB sic entfiihrt
werden?
GADDAFI: Flugzeugentfiihrungen
oder Sprengung von Zivil-Flugzeugen
sowie das Terrorisieren von Zivilisten
sind fur uns Raubakte and Verbrechen.
Die libysche Gesetzgebung bestraftsol-
che Teter sehr hart. Wir betrachten
derartige Taten nicht als ,Befreiungs-
Gaddafi Ober
Baader-Meinhof: ?Wir kennen diese Gruppe
oder Bewegung nicht, and wir haben keine
Verbindung zu ihnen. Wir unterstutzen sic weder
moralisch noch materiell."
Flugzeugentfuhrungen: ,Flugzeugentfiihrungen
oder Sprengung von Zivil-Flugzeugen sowie das
Terrorisieren von Zivilisten sind fur uns Raub-
akte and Verbrechen."
Carlos: ?Ich kenne ihn nicht, ich wei13 noch
nicht mal, aus welchem Land er kommt."
Gewalt: ?Ich halte die Anwendung von Gewalt
fur gerechtfertigt, wenn ein kolonisiertes and un-
terdriicktes Volk seine Befreiung fordert and der
Kolonialist oder Unterdrucker nicht aufgeben
will."
Terrorismus: ?Ich bin gegen Terrorismus and ge-
gen Flugzeugentfiihrungen. Ich bin fur Ausrot-
tung des Terrorismus and fur AUsrottung der
Flugzeugentfuhrungen."
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akt", wir Sind gegen diese Kampfri
thoden. Sic haben nichts, gar nichts
mit Befreiungsaktionen zu tun.
SPIEGEL: War Ihrer Meinung nach
denn der Anschlag gegen das israeli-
sche Olympia-Team in Munchen ge-
rechtfertigt?
GADDAFI: Ich sagte, ich verfuge
and bestimme fiber solche Teter nicht.
Und ich kann nicht entscheiden, was
sie tun and lassen wollen. Das geht
nur die Teter selbst an, sie mussen die
Verantwortung tragen. Ich kenne ihre
Motive and Rechtfertigungen nicht.
SPIEGEL: Wie erklaren Sic sich
denn. daB die Geiselnehmer bei Flug-
zeugentfuhrungen der unterschiedlich-
sten Art immer wieder Ihr Land, Liby-
en, als Endziel wahlen? Zum Beispiel
vor einem Jahr die Japaner von der
Roten Armee and spater die von Carlos
gefuhrte Gruppe, die die Opec-Minister
in Wien entfiihrte?
GADDAFI: Erstens: Die Entfiihrer
der arabischen Opec-Minister sind
nicht in Libyen ausgestiegen oder ge-
blieben. sondern in Tunis and Algier,
also in einem anderen Land. Zweitens:
Der Anteil Libyens an Landungen ent-
fi hrter Flugzeuge ist nicht grNer als
der Anteil vieler Lander dieser Welt.
die gezwungen waren, entfuhrten Flug- .
zeugen die Landung zu erlauben. Was
das entfi hrte japanische Flugzeug an-
geht, haben wir eine humanitare Tat
vollbracht, fur die die Welt uns dank-
bar sein sollte: Wenn wir nicht erlaubt
hatten. daB es bei uns landete, ware es
mitsamt alien Insassen:.abgestiirzt. Die
Entfuhrer haben mit der Sprergung des
Flugzeugs gedroht.
SPIEGEL: Was ist mit den Japanern
geschehen?
GADDAFI: Sic sind vor Gericht ge-
stellt worden.
SPIEGEL: Und die Carlos-Gruppe?
GADDAFI: Was hat Libyen mit
Carlos zu tun? Er ist nicht hei mir aus-
gestiegen, weder er noch seine Gruppe.
Ich hake seinen Namen erst gehort, als
or seinen Piratenakt unternahm. Ich
kenne ihn nicht. ich weiB noch nicht
mal, aus welchem Land er kommt.
Obrigens: Warum fragen Sie President
Sadat nicht danach (lacht)? Der nam-
lich erhob den Vorwurf, daB Carlos bei
mir sei. Er hat dies in die Welt gesetzt,
also muB or ihn gut kennen. Er weiB,
wer Carlos ist, woher er kommt, was er
alles tun kann, wann er kommt and
geht. Alle diese Fragen konnen Sie also
netrost Sadat stellen. Und er wird alle
beantworten konnen.
SPIEGEL: Die Air-France-Maschi-
ne mit israelischen Passagieren, die
kurzlich nach Entebbe entfuhrt wurde,
durfte in Libyen auftanken. Warum
haben Sie den Austausch von Geiseln
gegen inhaftierte Frei heitskampfer in
Ihrem Land nicht zugelassen?
GADDAFI: Die Entfuhrer dieser
Maschine haben von tins nichts gefor-
dert. Sic landeten bei uns, and wir
glaubten, sie wollten uns cinige Geiseln
iiberlassen. Doch das taten? sie nicht.
Sie forderten von uns, ihr Flugzeug
aufzutanken. Sic drohten, sonst das
Flugzeug mitsamt alien Passagieren in
die Luft zu sprengen. Um die Spren-
gung des Flugzeuges zu verhindern,ha-
ben wir entschieden, das Flugzeug auf-
tanken zu lassen. An Bord der Maschi-
ne war eine Frau, die sehr krank war.
Wir haben sie in einem unserer Kran-
kenhauser aufgenommen Lind Arztlich
versorgt. Das Flugzeug ist weitergeflo-
gen, ohne data wir wuBten, wohin, and
ohne daB wir wu(3ten, aus welchem
Gaddafi beim Gebet
?Warum fragen Sie Sadat nicht?"
Grund es entfuhrt wurde. Die Entfuh-
rer haben mit uns daruber nicht gere-
det. Sic sagten nur ganz klar: entweder
Treibstoff oder Sprengung.
SPIEGEL: Die westlichen Staaten
fordern, daB kein Land Geiselnehmer
and Flugzeugentfiihrer mehr aufneh-
men durfe, da nur so der Terrorismus
wirksam bekampft werden kenne. Was
halten Sic von dieser Forderung?
GADDAFI: Sic bedeutet, data jedes
entfuhrte Flugzeug absturzt oder in
der Luft explodiert and daB somit
viele unschuldige Opfer sterben wer-
den. Ich bin gegen Terrorismus and
gegen Flugzeugentfuhrungen. Ich bin
fur Ausrottung des Terrorismus and
fur Ausrottung der Flugzeugentfuhrun-
gen. Flugzeugentfuhrungen sind, ich
Qe es schon, Verbrechen and Pira-
tenakte. Aber die Idee, wie sie jetzt vor-
getragen wurde, ist undurchfuhrbar.
Denn stellen Sic sich vor, wenn alle
Flughafen dieser Welt auf einmal ge-
sperrt wurden, was passierte dann? Um
den Terrorismus zu bekampfen, muG
man seine Ursachen beseitigen.
SPIEGEL: Das fuhrt uns zu der Fra-
ge: Was ist Terrorismus?
GADDAFI: Terrorismus ist die
Durchfuhrung einer Aktion, die zur
Terrorisierung von Zivilisten gedacht
ist. So gibt es viel individuellen Terro-
rismus in den USA: Ein Verruckter,
Psychopath oder Verbrecher, Abenteu-
rer ocler Rauber nimmt eine oder meh-
rere Geiseln, um Geld zu erpressen.
zum Beispiel eine Million Dollar. Das
ist fur mich ein terroristischer Akt.
Kein Mensch auf dieser Welt kann ihn
akzeptieren. Aber der Kampf fir Frei-
heit and Emanzipation kann nicht als
Terrorismus betrachtet werden. Sonst
waren mehr als die Halfte der heutigen
Staatsoberhaupter Terroristen.
SPIEGEL: Vielleicht ist es ja so. Ist
der Widerstand gegen eine Besatzungs-
macht in Ihren Augen Terrorismus?
GADDAFI: Der Widerstand gegen
eine Besatzungsmacht ist kein Terroris-
mus. Der franzi sische Widerstand ge-
gen die Nazi-Besatzung war kein Ter-
rorismus. Es gab ja auch deutsche
Gruppen, die gegen die Nazi-Herr-
schaft in Deutschland kampften. Wa-
ren diese Menschen Terroristen? Be-
stimmt nicht! Heute feiern die USA
den Jahrestag ihrer Befreiung von den
englischen Unterdriickern. Damals ha-
ben die Amerikaner englische Schiffe
and Anlagen vernichtet. Sic feiern heu-
te also den Sieg ihrer Gewalt, die Ame-
rika zur Unabhangigkeit von den Eng-
landern verholfen hat.
SPIEGEL: Naturlich gibt es Recht-
fertigungen fur Gewaltanwendung.
GADDAFI: Wenn President Ford
and die Konigin Elizabeth von Eng-
land heute an den angolanischen
Staatsprasidenten appellieren, er solle
die verurteilten weil3en Soldner begna-
digen, dann sind die beiden, Ford and
Elizabeth, nichts anderes als Schiltzer
and Forderer von Terroristen. Denn je-
der auf dieser Welt weiB doch, daB
Soldner Killer von Beruf rind.
SPIEGEL: Fur Soldner gibt es auf
keinen Fall Gnade?
GADDAFI: Auf keinen Fall. Obri-
gens: Warum ist es kein Terrorismus,
wenn die europaischen oder die westli-
chen Staaten Gewalt anwenden? War-
urn nur, wenn die Gewalt von Volkern
der Dritten Welt angewandt wird? Der
Appell von Ford and Elizabeth ist eine
verwerfliche Tat. Die Welt sollte sie
verdammen. Ich kann mir nicht vor-
stellen. wie ein Staat, der einen Funken
von Moral oder Scharr hat, die Begna-
digung von Soldnern and Terroristen
fordern kann.
SPIEGEL: Herr President, wir dan-
ken Ihnen fur dieses Gesprach.
78
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