DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP99-01448R000402050001-7
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 13
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: May 22, 2012
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: July 12, 1995
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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NREPORTS
FOR CIA/PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF STATION WHET-TV
PROGRAM CHARLIE ROSE CITY
DATE 0 7 / 12 / 9 5 11:0 0 PM AUDIENCE
SUB.IECT DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN
BROADCAST EXCERPT
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CHARLIE ROSE (ANCHOR): Tonight, Senator Daniel Moynihan of
New York and William Crowell, the Deputy Director of the National
Security Agency, on an extraordinary time in American espionage
history, the decoding of Soviet transmissions to its agents in the
United States.
WILLIAM CROWELL (DEPUTY DIR., NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY): The
first level of encryption was to take words and phrases in a code
book that would convert them into numbers. The numbers were not
random. They were essentially sets of numbers, usually 4 or 5
numbers together, that would stand for a single word, or several
words in a phrase.
ROSE: During and for decades after World War Two, scholarly
analysts at Arlington Hall, the headquarters of the U.S. Army
Signal Intelligence Service decoded super-secret Soviet
transmissions. Yesterday, the results of their efforts were
finally made public. Among the disclosures, powerful evidence that
the Rosenbergs were, indeed, Soviet spies; that the Soviets had
over 200 clandestine agents working in this country and that
Whittaker Chambers' disclosures were accurate.
Joining me now from Washington Senator Daniel Patrick
Moynihan, who runs a federal commission on the uses and abuses of
secrecy and in a rare media appearance, the Deputy Director of the
National Security Agency, William Crowell.
Thank you both for coming.
Senator Moynihan, tell me the significance of this, and what
it is that's so fascinating for you about this story, about finally
making this public.
While Radio N Reports endeavors to assure the accuracy of material supplied by it, it cannot be responsible for mistakes or omissions.
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SEN. DANIEL P. MOYNIHAN (D-NEW YORK): Two things. First,
there are an awful lot of real heroes involved, as Director Crowell
will tell you more about them. But these people work year in, year
out, year in and finally broke one of the most complex codes ever
done, and they did the country an enormous service.
But then there was a second aspect. What they showed was that
indeed there was a huge Soviet espionage effort targeted on the
atom bomb. Director Crowell told me today they've opened an
exhibit in which--on this whole thing. And one, they have a
picture of the United States atom bomb next to the f first Soviet
atom bomb. And he said they're the same thing. They're the same
thing. And they did get it. They copied it. It worked.
That happened. We learned about this through these codes at
just the moment when it seemed to us--Americans, the most important
thing on Earth, on, in life, was to protect this secret from
falling into enemy hands.
Then it turned out, it had. Then we wondered: What had
happened to our nation? What else were they finding it out.
And here you come to the second part, which is that in the
end, you see, there are no secrets, except in nature, and if you
are qualified to find out those secrets, you will. When it came to
the hydrogen bomb, the American scientists, first having thought
that it couldn't be done, and thinking it shouldn't, then two
American scientists, (UNCLEAR) and Teller, found out a way to do
it, and our scientists, Heinz Bete(?), Oppenheimer, said: Well, if
the, we can figure it out, if (UNCLEAR) and Teller can, well,
Sakharov will, and, indeed, Sakharov did.
But thereafter we had the idea that there were somehow secrets
that should be kept from an enemy which had access to them, simply
because they were secrets in nature and not in a file cabinet. I
wonder if the Director would agree.
CROWELL: Well, I, first of all, I don't think that secrets
that are kept from one particular target, or country, are
necessarily secrets not kept from (OVERLAPPING VOICES) So, you
have to be careful to generalize that only one target counts.
The second thing is that it's our job to protect the
information that we produce with the funds given to the agency by
the public, as long as it is necessary in order to make it
effective for the future. And, so, even though it may be
difficult, as you say, I believe that we do have an obligation to
protect them as long as we do.
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ROSE: Have we raised the debate that clearly is something
that you have given some thought to, Senator Moynihan, the notion
of whether we need a CIA and the notion of spying in a post-Cold
War world? Are we touching on that question for you?
MOYNIHAN: We need the kind of CIA that John Deutsch has taken
on and is going to shape. We do not have the protracted conflict
with the one Soviet Union. We have many such problems. But the
problem with--in the context of the atom bomb spying, we created a
kind of culture of secrecy in our government, which persists to a
degree that is not useful to us.
In 1970, Frederick Seitz (?) , then the president of Rockefeller
University, headed up a panel of scientists that was advising the
Pentagon on this issue, and Dr. Teller was a member, for example,
and they came out and said--I'll read you, I'll read you an
excerpt. It's very important.
It says: The task force noted that more might be gained and
lost if our nation were to adopt unilaterally, if necessary, a
policy of complete openness in all areas of information.
The problem of secrecy, particularly in analysis, much less
in(?) , than(?) science is that it prevents you from correcting your
mistakes and, and in the end, you know, the simple fact is that for
all our enormous intelligence apparatus, we missed the collapse of
the Soviet Union completely. Admiral Turner, who was Director of
CIA under President Carter, has said, you know, that some
revisionist talk going on. But on the corporate(?) view, missed it
totally. And that's partly because no one knew what...was.
I--just one more thing. In 1960, when President Kennedy came
in, he was told that by the year 2000, he should expect that the
Soviet Union would have a gross national product three times that
of the United States. Well, that's what he knew. And persons
might disagree with that. I know that Walt Rostow didn't think
that at all. But, nonetheless, that's what the President knew and
couldn't act on any other assumption. And what he knew was
profoundly wrong.
ROSE: Do you agree? Do you think that the directors of the
CIA during the Reagan administration, then, and Bush administration
would agree with you that they missed totally the fall of
Communism?
MOYNIHAN: No. No.
They wouldn't. But they would be wrong,
because
they did. Two years before the Berlin Wall came down, the
official
CIA estimate of per capita gross domestic product in East
Germany
was
higher than West German. I once said to Director
Deutsch,
you
know, any taxi driver in West Berlin could have told
you that
is
not so. He said: Any taxi driver in Washington.
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ROSE: Mr. Crowell, before we move on to the (UNCLEAR)
project, any comment about this and the notion of, you sit at NSA,
and, in a sense, of the future role of intelligence gathering and
secrecy in a different world than we now inhabit after the end of
the Cold War. Some say, a more difficult, more complex, and a more
dangerous world.
CROWELL: Well, I think it is becoming more complex. I think
also there is definitely a move toward more openness in the
intelligence community.
MOYNIHAN: There is.
CROWELL: I think that's health.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: You saw it yesterday.
CROWELL: I think you did see it yesterday. On the other
hand, I would like to emphasize again that what we spend money to
develop, the sources and methods, and if we reveal the sources and
methods while they're still viable, essentially we are throwing
away that money, because we will need those sources and methods to
continue to produce the information.
So, there's a period during which you have to make judgments
about what you want to accomplish and whether or not it's in the
interests of the public to release the information or to try and
retain the capability. And it's a balance. And I think we're
getting better at the balance than we used to be.
MOYNIHAN: Right. If I could say--the rule--if everything is
secret, nothing is secret. And one of the secrecy system--not
nearly so much about the very technical, hugely complex,
mathematical exercises you go through and collecting exercises in
the National Security Agency, which is our listening agency, but
the analysis of what's going on in the world. Right now, I'll ask
you, Larry (SIC), how many times have you picked up the Washington
Post or any other paper and read in the front page that a CIA
analysis has just revealed.
Well, that's bureaucratic in-fighting going on in our town,
the capital, your town, all our town, on, in which the least
scrupulous person has the advantage of being willing to give out
secrets which others won't give and not always get the best
results. You get the kind of results in which a huge
miscalculation we were thinking we might have to fight the Soviets
at Arlington, Texas, about 4 years before they imploded.
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ROSE: Do I hear you saying that because of--Mr. Deutsch has
moved over from Pentagon to the CIA that you no longer believe it's
necessary to abolish the CIA?
MOYNIHAN: I made that proposition 3 years ago, because I
wanted to start a conversation. I think we had that conversation.
I think we had a good results. (OVERLAPPING VOICES) scientists who
understand the limits of these things.
ROSE: Take me to (UNCLEAR) project, Mr. Crowell, and tell me,
Director Crowell, tell me about the men and women who came
together, what their task was, what their skills were, what was so
extraordinary about their effort--and you were part of it, I think,
at that time.
CROWELL: Well, I joined it late in the, in the program, and
so I had the opportunity to meet many of those who were still with
the project. But I didn't mitt--I didn't get to meet until
yesterday, actually, some of the more prominent members, like
Meredith Gardner.
The original, the first person who began the program was Jean
Grable. She began on the lst of February, 1943. She is an
absolutely fascinating lady. She was a schoolteacher until about
six weeks before she began the project. And I spent a fair amount
of time with her, both yesterday and this morning, renewing
acquaintance...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ROSE: What was the project?
CROWELL: I'm having trouble with this--
ROSE: What was the project? What was the project?
MOYNIHAN: The project was breaking an intensely complicated
code which involved using a lot of one-time pads(?). I was in the
Navy for 6 years. And I--those one-time pads are never repeated.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ROSE: Go ahead. Explain what a one-time pad was, because
it's at the heart of this, which made it so complicated.
CROWELL: Well, actually the codes that were used in the
(UNCLEAR) were really double-encrypted system. The first level of
encryption was to take words and phrases in a code book that would
convert them into numbers. The numbers were not random. They were
essentially sets of numbers, usually 4 or 5 numbers together, that
would stand for a single word or several words in a phrase.
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Once you took the words and converted them to those numbers,
then you applied what is called a one-time pad. It is a book of
numbers that are truly as close to random as man knows how to
produce. Those numbers are added to the numbers from the code
book, following a set of rules that produce a random result. When
the message is sent, the entire process is reversed on the other
end.
Now, the problem is that for the cryptographer, is that the
one-time pad, if it's truly random, is unbreakable. It is a task
that is impossible. If it is not random, it's going to be very
close to it and still very close to being impossible, unless
mistakes are made in the construction and fabrication of--
MOYNIHAN: And the Soviets got overloaded. Didn't they? They
just had to do much.
CROWELL: The war was a strain on them. They had to fabricate
and ship. These codes, they had to be shipped by courier. The
production of them was quite a strain. They had to be printed and
bound and all of those kinds of things. And you had to have some
source of the randomness in the beginning. It became easier to
reuse some of them.
ROSE: Yeah. So, they re-used. Go ahead. Make that point.
CROWELL: What they did is they remanufactured--they didn't
re-use--they remanufactured pages of these one-time pads in varying
ways in order to mask the fact that they had been remanufactured.
ROSE: And what was the heroic breakthrough at the time that
allowed them to--
CROWELL: Well, the breakthrough really came in two phases.
The first phase was this job of, that Jean Grable actually began,
of collating and sorting and categorizing all the traffic, until
you knew that it was different kinds of traffic, enciphered in
different forms, so that you had all of one type of information
that you were looking at. And then to find some way of finding the
anomalies, the non-randomness, if you will, or the areas where you
could exploit it.
Now, that stripped away the first level of encryption. You
went from random numbers to then a set of numbers that were non-
random in 4 or 5 letter groups. Now, all you still had were
numbers. And you had to be able to convert those numbers into
text.
MOYNIHAN: Didn't Gardner, around 1947 come up with 3 words?
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ROSE: This is Meredith Gardner, who was one of the analysts.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: 3 words.
CROWELL: Meredith was an absolutely brilliant man. And not
only did he know all these languages, but he knew how to fit into
logic of human communications these patterns of numbers. He could
look at the numbers and say: Gee.
ROSE: Sounds like.
CROWELL: It sounds like, or it's going to be like.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: You can't teach it. Put it that way.
ROSE: And you can't teach it. Then what did you need to get
MOYNIHAN: You need a Meredith Gardner.
CROWELL: You need a Meredith Gardner.
MOYNIHAN: And all his colleagues. A lot of heroes.
CROWELL: A lot of time and a lot of tenacity.
ROSE: Now, these people came to the job--I want to move on to
what they discovered, once they broke the code--but they came to
this job with not skill in, in decoding. But they were
schoolteachers and they were what? archaeologists, and they were
whole series, a variety of pre-war experience.
CROWELL: There were linguists. There were archaeologists.
There were musicians. There were English majors. There were
teachers. They were--
MOYNIHAN: Notice. Notice. They were musicians. They were
English teachers. Those people know something.
CROWELL: They know the--they know human language and a lot
about the order of language.
ROSE: Should we trust the government more to musicians and
teachers, Senator Moynihan?
MOYNIHAN: It was a damn good thing we had them on hand in
194...I think Mr. Crowell would want you to know that just as the
Soviet espionage in effect stole the first details of the atom
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bomb, also stole the fact that we had broken the code. This
happened, I guess, probably the British counterintelligence...
ROSE: That was Philby, wasn't it? Kim Philby?
MOYNIHAN: Well, I'll turn to...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CROWELL: ...the popular notion is that it's Kim Philby. And
Kim Philby in his own book certainly was not bashful about claiming
some credit for that. But it's not entirely clear.
ROSE: It's not clear.
CROWELL: It's not...
ROSE: But you don't rule it out?
MOYNIHAN: Well, when you're living in Moscow, and the Soviet
government is paying your, your, for your, buying your drinks and
so forth, you don't want to underestimate how much, how important
you have been to them.
ROSE: Err on the side of exaggeration and height? All right.
MOYNIHAN: ...happened...
ROSE: Somebody ac--somebody was told--somebody from the
(GARBLED) the Signal Corps said to Philby at the time who, I guess,
was, you know, was a high-ranking official of British intelligence:
This is what we have done. And he then told the Soviets. That's
at least believed or assumed in part.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CROWELL: That part is known. He did know about the codes
and, in fact, would follow the progress in breaking the codes to
determine whether or not U.S. intelligence and our allies were
getting close to him.
ROSE: Okay. What do we now know from the discl--from
breaking the code. What did we know? I mentioned earlier. It
told us that they--that they were trying to steal and did, in fact,
steal the architecture of the bomb, the drawings and how to make a
bomb. Two, what did it tell us about the Rosenbergs, Ethel and
Julius Rosenberg?
CROWELL: Well, there are a number of messages that refer to
the Rosenbergs. I believe that--I don't remember the exact number,
but quite a number. And there are two that refer to Ethel
Rosenberg. We know--
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ROSE: They were involved in passing the secrets of the
Manhattan Project...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CROWELL: Well, the messages, the messages are mostly trade(?)
craft(?) messages, and what they concern is, are things like
requests for more film, so that Antenna or Liberal, which were the
cover names for...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: The code name was Liberal.
ROSE: Liberal? That was his code name?
CROWELL: That's correct. And before that it was Antenna. It
was changed some time during the middle of the war.
ROSE: And the code name for the State Department was The
Bank. And code name for Roosevelt was Kapitan.
CROWELL: Kapitan.
ROSE: Yes. And War Department, which, I guess, Pentagon, was
Arsenal. Yes?
CROWELL: That's correct. And Winston Churchill was Boar,
spelled b-o-a-r.
MOYNIHAN: And Washington, D.C. was Carthage.
ROSE: Was Carthage.
CROWELL: San Francisco was Babylon.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN : And Europe (? ) in (? ) Tyre (?) .
ROSE: All right. What did it tell us of the disclosures of
Whittaker Chambers later, who became a very controversial figure,
defended by the right in American public life, Bill Buckley and
others, at the same time he accused Alger Hiss. He was a principal
accuser of Alger Hiss. What did it tell us about him? His
disclosures?
CROWELL: Well, these 49 messages may have only confirmed some
of his statements. There are further releases to be made over the
next year, and I'll wait until those releases are made.
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MOYNIHAN: But, Larry, let's be clear. There was a...division
in American life over the charges that the Soviet Union had
espionage rings running in our country and inside our government.
They had--this had been going on since 1920. The minute the Soviet
government started sponsoring Communist parties around the country,
they sponsored a public party and a covert party. John Reed got
1,08,000 roubles from them clandestinely.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: "Ten Days That Shook The World".
ROSE: "Ten Days That Shook The World".
MOYNIHAN: He's buried in the Kremlin Wall. Now, the most
important fact is that they denied the existence of the covert
side. And, so, a huge debate took place in America in which people
who had been part of it, who had been a spy, would come out and
say: Look, I was a spy. And he was, too, and so forth. And the
others would say: No.
ROSE: Well, that's Whittaker Chambers and Alger Hiss right
there.
MOYNIHAN: We are--I don't want to speak of names. But it
defined an era of--that grew gradually more paranoiac, shrill,
accusatory. We, we, we were hurt--the Soviets probably did more
damage to us by the internal debate--
ROSE: By turning American against American, they did more
damage than the information they actually found.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah. In the end, the information was, as I say,
they didn't need any information for the hydrogen bomb. They
figured it out on their own. But, but this culture of secrecy got-
-the people inside our government who knew it was true--
ROSE: Right.
MOYNIHAN: They could look at the (UNCLEAR) transcripts. I
mean, you know, I've got some right here in front of me. They
would just look at it and say: I know it's true. But they
couldn't say it, because the (UNCLEAR), they kept it secret...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ROSE: My next question. Why did they keep it secret for so
long? And why now?
MOYNIHAN: Because we were listening to current traffic.
Isn't that right...
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CROWELL: The methods that were used were, in fact, still
useful into the 80s. And there was another issue, too.
ROSE: The methods were useful until--into the 80s.
CROWELL: That's correct.
ROSE: That was in terms of, of, of decoding their--
CROWELL: --crypto-analysis.
MOYNIHAN: I'm gonna say something, though, which is maybe a
little too much off the cuff. I think more might have been gained,
too, by American society, if we'd just gone all out and said:
Here. Read this, if you have any doubts about it. Now, that's
settled. Can we get this issue behind us? There was this era.
It's over. And now let's go on. I, honestly, I think I think
that.
CROWELL: There was another issue that I think troubled a lot
of the people involved in the decision-making process, and that was
the issue of names that appear in the traffic, in which there is no
evidence that they actually participated in espionage, and even
more importantly, some messages later on confirmed that they had
not participated in espionage.
ROSE: Is an example of that that you could--
CROWELL: Not among the 49...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: I'm gonna try to find it. I wouldn't put it one
bit past the Soviets to identify in encrypted message a perfectly
innocent but important American government official as one of their
agents, in order to destroy him and, and, and, you know...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ROSE: Disinformation of a kind.
MOYNIHAN: A disinformation. They were not nice people.
CROWELL: Well, and let me just say--I answered your question
that there weren't any in the current release. But, in fact, you
will find very few redactions, that is, names marked through in the
message text of those messages that we released. However, I'd like
to point out to you that there are a few. There are one or two.
And those are cases where there are names that appear where we are
uncertain and the FBI is uncertain--more importantly, the FBI,
because they did the investigation--about whether or not these
people actually were...
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(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
MOYNIHAN: Well, you could have an agent bragging about: I
got, I got contact here, this fella's working for me. She's, you
know. And, and, it not be true. So, America had to go through
this. We're coming out of it. And I want to say, the FBI, Mr.
Freeh, the National Security Administration, the Army Signal
Intelligence is the predecessor of the National Security
Administration. They've been magnificent, as has Secretary
Deutsch, Director Deutsch. We can be a little prouder today, not
just of what we did by opening these things, by now that we know
the people who did it for us in the first place. No one ever knew
their names.
ROSE: All right. That's the important point I want to make
before I have a couple more questions. But that must have been a
wonderful moment for them, to be there and to be recognized,
because for a long time they could not talk about who they were or
what they did.
CROWELL: That's absolutely correct. And I talked with many
of them yesterday, a lot more this morning. I think they were
absolutely stunned--first, by the release. But secondly, by the
fact, the focus of the release stayed on their contributions and
their importance to the country, and they were flabbergasted. They
were very, very thrilled and grateful to Senator Moynihan, to, to
the DCI, to Dr. Deutsch, and to all the others that participated
and to the way the media has treated the story, which has
reinforced that.
ROSE: One last question about the CIA, about spying. Do you
believe that Aldrich Ames was helped and there may be people that
helped him who are still working within the CIA, within the
American intelligence apparatus?
CROWELL: Is that question for me? I'm, I'm afraid I don't
know the answer to that question, and I wouldn't want to venture a
guess. I think it's too important a question to venture a guess.
MOYNIHAN: I will venture one proposition, that if we don't
know now, we're going to find out. Yes.
ROSE: Do you agree with that, Director Crowell?
CROWELL: I believe there is a concerted effort--
ROSE: Find out?
CROWELL: To find out.
ROSE: Who helped whom? When? Could you have done this
alone?
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Senator Moynihan, you have spoken to this issue--and I only
have a moment. But I want to get your thoughts, because it is
drawing increasing attention; it is the question of the United
Nations troops' peacekeeping mission in Bosnia. What should happen?
MOYNIHAN: We should get that peacekeeping mission out of a
setting in which there is no peace, that they can't--they're not
keeping a peace, and they're not enforcing it either. We should,
in my view, lift the embargo of the legitimate government of
Bosnia/Herzegovina, a member of the United Nations, which has been
invaded, and it's been torn apart, and we have imposed an arms
embargo on them, so they cannot--whatever else the right of self
defense is specific in the Charter, and we've denied it to a member
of the United Nations.
ROSE: I thank both of you for joining us. It's an
extraordinary story. And to have you talk about it is a
fascinating chapter in American history. And it must have been a
wonderful moment to be there with the people who at long last were
able to be recognized for important contributions that they made
during an important time. Thank you both.
GUESTS: Thank you.
(END)
Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/05/22 :CIA-RDP99-014488000402050001-7