INTERVIEW WITH SHIA CLERIC MUHAMMED HUSSAYN FADLALLAH)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01507R000100050038-9
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 3
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 16, 2012
• Sequence Number: 38
• Publication Date: May 9, 1984
• Content Type: CABLE

1 . .
Declassified in Part - Sanitized Copy Approved for Release 2012/08/30: CIA-RDP05-01507R000100050038-9
-UNCLASSIFIED,
FRP: 23
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CR/NE
INCOMING
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84 4105965 SUR
PAGE 001 * NC 4105965
TOR: O906102 MAY 84
RP WJEATIB
ZNR UUUUU ZOC STATE ZZI4
VTS4924
RR RUE.<
DE RUEHBL 44418/1 1291013
ONE ULAJUU ZZH
R 0161013: MAY 84
Fm AmEMBASSN BEIRUT
TO QuEHC.SECSTATE WASHDC 8357
INFO RUEHAMIAmEMBASSY AMMAN 3039
RvEHEC'AmEmBASS, CAIRO 2854
RuEHOM'AvEmBASSY DAMASCUS 3900
RuEHJN.AmCONSUL JERUSALEM 3115
RUEHJI/AMEmEASS, JIDDA 2726
RUEHRH/USELO RIYADH 2676
RUEIITV/AMEIEASSY TEL AVIV 3790
BT
UNCLAS BEIRUT oKATe
E.O. 12356: N/A
TAGS: PINS. PIER. PINR. LE
SUBJECT: INTERVIEW WITH SHIA OLgia?
44=4:1:4iWit>t
I. SummARv: FRENCH LANGUAGE BEIRUT WEEKLY 'NOUVEAU
MAGAZINE. PUBLISHED AN INTERVIEW WITH $HIA CLERIC
wuHAmvx2 HUSSArN FAOLALLAH IN ITS MAY 5 ISSUE.
ITERVIEW HAS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE MAGAZINE'S
COVER STEW, ABOUT THE SOUTHERN SUBURBS. FOLLOWING
ARE MAIN POINTS mADE BY FAOLALLAH IN THE INTERVIEW.
FADLALLAm DENIED BEING AS530IATEn.wirHLKNLOkouE-
17.'W-7"25-num7LIKLIcLa:,oNs_wliK_/, ArT,VE
LOCAL ANC -ZEGICINAL CIRCumSTANCES PREVENT THE
CREATION 0, AN ISLAMIC STATE IN LEBANON.
....kSECULARISATION IS NOT A REALISTIC SOLUTION TO .
'LEBANON'S PROELEmE. BuYIHDWITEPAT (*CONFESSION-
ALISm MIGHT HELP. DURING FADLALLAH'S VISIT TO
IRAN HE ATTEmPTED TO CONVINCE THE IRANIANS THAT
THERE IS NO POSSIBIL/Tt OF FOUNDING AN ISLAMIC
REPUBLIC IN LEBANON. THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS A
THREAT IEJT THE LEBANESE CANNOT sTRuaaLE ALONE
AGAINST :T. FACLALLAH DENIED AN,: CONNE;TION.
MIT- TwE ATTA:Z?-,J...-7777rTNI:F7DS_VSW: HTAOOuARTERS.,
AN, SO_J:IOCI.%-CEEANON MUST BE GASEO-6(-INTERNAL
AGREEMENT. ? YOuNCER GENERATION 0, LEADERs_musT
. TAKE owEc, corKTsTENens-roitiaiirusumis_abo
wciS_Ivs IS POSSIBLE. OI,1:INO THE COLN1R, INTO
CAN:DNS AI.L NOT. :rDzy,-Lv.ri.qu.-cotanitE--
--.1 P5CSZEmi.t FdDLALLA., ENDED THE INTERVIEW WITH
0-4-11TO-iiiA. FOLLOWING IS TEXT OF INTERVIEW. 4-0*.
ENO SummAR:.
; .
MAMA:
2. BEGIN TEAT: I AM THE HEAD OF P43 MOVEMENT. NOR
OF ANm. I/LATTA. MY WORK IS THAT OF ? MUSLIM
-ttrifeEASSIRED-
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84 4105963 SUR
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hC 4105993
INTELLECTUAL. I-AM A THINKER AND THE AUTHOR OF
A SCORE OF WORKS CN ISLAM. MY FIELD OF ACTION GOES
BEYOND THE FRAMEWORK OF A PARTY OR A mOVEMENT. IT
EXTENDS TO THE (ESLIMS OF THIS COUNTily AND OF ALL
OTHER COLNTRIES. WY IDEAS MAY BE WELL-RECEIVED
EIN THE NEW GENERAT:ON OF MUSLIMS. BUT I HAVE NO .
OFFICIAL CAPACITY. I NAVE NO MILITIA: I CO NOT
BELLEME THAT ARMS CAN RESOLVE ANYTHING. CUT I
HAVE BODYGUARDS EECAUSE I HAVE SEEN THE TARGET
OF ATTACKS.
3. wHAT ARE YOUR RELATIONS WITH THE OTHER SHIA
GROUPS?
--AS A MUSLIM TH/NKER. t WORK IN THE MUSLIM AREA
IN GENERAL. THuS. I COLLABORATE WITH ALL THE ACTIVE
FORCES ON THE GROUND. I HAVE VERY GENERAL RELA-
TIONS WITH THEM.
WHAT ARE YOUR RELATIONS WITH THE SUNNI GROUPS IN
BEIRUT. PARTICULARLY WITH THE UNION(?) OF MUSLIM
ULAmAS?
--THIS LNION GROUPS SUNNI AND SHIA ULAMAS WHO ARE
vACRAING FCR THE UNIFICATION OF ISLAM. THEY ARE
FRIENDS AND SE CONSULT EACH OTHER, BUT / AM NOT
80.20 TO THEM. PERSONALLY-1_13ELIEVE. STRONGLY_
IN THE IJNIFICATION CF ISLAM. .IT WOULD SEA FIRST
STEP INLIRVE_DDExIsTENCE WITH THE CHRISTIANS:
BECAUSE IT SHouLD-ceNsIST IN AN OPEN UNIFICATION.
NOT ONE CLOSED :N UPON ITSELF.
AND WITH 51-561401 SAID S5-1-A.BAN7
--A GREAT FRIENSDHIP BINDS US.
YOU THEREFORE AGREE WITH HIM WHEN HE SAYS HE WANTS
To CREATE AN ISLAMIC STATE IN LEBANON?
--IN SPEAK/NO THIS WAY. SHAYKH SHA.BAN IS EXPRESSING
?
* AN ABSOLUTIST POINT OF VIEW. IN PRINCIPLE. IT IS
? vAL:0 PROPOSITION AND I Am CONVINCED THAT ISLAM
CAN RESOLE ALL CF MANS PROBLEMS. LEBANESE OR NOT.
RUT THE FOLLOwING QUESTION ARISES: IS IT POSSIBLE
TO Ap211_21.CH A ,..;IIE.IT'LIN_FOL LEBANON?
OPINION, LOCAL AS ..ELL AS REGIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES
OD NOT PEZmIT THE CREATION CF AN ISLAMIC STATE IN.
LE3xNCN:- DhE_!.!uST BE REALISTIC.. FOR THE vCmENT,_
: SUCH A PROJECT CANNOT-EE_REALIZED. ..ftlIA:(5 WHY L..
E. 12354: -
; -AcS: PINS. FTER.PINR. LE
we) SUBvECT: INTERVIEW WITH SHIA CLERIC MUHAMMAD HUSsAvN
4.. ENCOURAGE ANY AcTNN_THAT.ALKS.AT. FAcILITATENG.
ON A REAL EGUILIERIUM. FAR FROM
"ugh.' AW-MEGEmchISTIC IMPULSE OF'CNE PARTY OR THE OTHER.
4 IT IS THEREFORE NECESSARY TO SEPARATE RELIGION
UTO THE STATE. um NOT ADOPT SECULARISATION?
!
Ni4r, --IN 4U ISLAMIC STATE. SEPARATING RELIGION ANO STATE
IS NONSENSE. IN LEBANON. SECULARISATION DOES NOT
"IE :% THE WINO OF THE CITIZEN. HE IS NOT
ACCUSTCNE: 70 REACT IN A SECULAR MANNER. THIS IS
-4 WHY THOSE SPEAX OF SECULARISATION CO TO. IN MY
OPINION. :N ORDER TO SCORE POINTS AND AS BARGAINING
TACTICS. VET THE, DO NOT RELIEVE IT ThEmEELvES. IT
SEM T: ME RATHER THAT IN THE CURRENT cmcGKsTANcEs.
ROLIT:cAL oEccKFEssioNALIzAT:cN ccuLo RESOLVE MANY
UNCLASSInED
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PROBLEMS. ON THE CONDITION THAT IT IS NOT PURSUED
TO FULL SECULARISATION.
5. WHAT WAS THE SUBJECT OF YOUR VISIT WITH
AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI AND IRANIAN OFFICIALS DURING
YOUR VISIT TO THAT COUNTRY LAST JANuARY?
--IT WAS A PRIVATE VISIT. I HAD PARTICIPATED IN
ISLAMIC CONGRESSES IN GREAT BRITAIN AND IN INDIA,
AND I TRAVELED THROUGH TEHERAN. I TRIED. IN FACT;
TO CONVINCE THE IRANIAN OFFICIALS OF THE REALITY
OF THE LEBANESE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE HAD SAID
TO THEM THAT IT WAS TIME TO CREATE AN ISLAMIC
STATE IN LEBANON. FOR My PART. I TRIED TO SHIN
THEM THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. THE ISLAMIC REVOLU-
TION CANNOT COME TO POWER IN LEBANON.
6. WHAT ARE YOUR AREAS OF INFLUENCE IN LEBANON/
--WE HAVE A PRESENCE IN ALL MUSLIM REGIONS OF
LEBANON.
THEY SAY THAT IMAM RAGHE8 MARS, OF JIBSHIT WAS ONE ,
OF YOUR PARTISANS?
--YES. THIS IMAm WAS ONE OF MY STUDENTS WHEN 1
WAS TEACHING IN NABA'. AS A THINKER, 1 HAVE MANN .
STUDENTS.
7. WILL YOUR CONFLICT WITH IFRAEL ENO IF THE ID
WITHDRAWS FROM THE SOUTH. OR IS IT DEEPER THAN
THAT?
?NuR_pROBLEK IN LEBANON ILL BE RESOLVED WHEN..
ISRAEL !.eAysS THE SOUTH. BUT AS MUSLIMS AND AS
LEBANESE. THE PRESENCEOF ISRAEL IN THE REGION ?
IS ? THREAT FOR US. THE EXISTENCE OF THE ?
ISRAELI STATE IS A COLONIALIST ACT THAT SEEKS TO
BRIFG ABOUT THE CRUMBLING OF THE REGION. BUT THE .
LEBANESE ALONE CANNOT STRUGGLE AGAINST THIS FACT,
NOR AGAINST THIS THREAT.
B. THEY SAY THAT YOU GAVE YOUR BLESSING TO THE
PERPETRATORS OF THE ATTACKS AGAINST THE FRENCH
AND AMERICAN HEADWARTERS.
--THIS IS SUCH A FOOLISH ACCUSATION THAT IT IS
NOT WORTH-DENYING:TIN FACT-THE WASHINGTON POST
CORREsPoNDANT ACCUSED ME OF IT. WHEN I ASKED HIM
WHERE HE GOT IT. HE SAID FROM THE KATA'IB
INFORMATION SERVICE. THIS IS WHO HAS PROPAGATED
THIS RUMOR. PERSONALLY, 1..HADNOTHI4)_1O.DOLEIT4*E8
FROM FAR OR.fROM NEAR.WITH_THIS ATTACK. _ANYWAY..
SO OWW-f-AW44Ad4RK9F_THE IDENTITy. OF. THE ATTACKERS.
. _
9. WHEN PEOPLE WERE SPEAKING OF THE RETURN OF THE
ADF TO BEIRUT YOU MADE A DECLARATION IN WHICH YOU
SAID THAT IT WAS NECESSARY TO BE REALISTIC AND TO
REVISE MISTAKEN CALCULATIONS. wHAT DID YOU MEAN/
--Ahry POLITICAL OR MILITARY FORCE. IN ORDER TO
SUCCEED IN ITS ACTION. RUST OBTAIN THE AGREEMENT
OF ALL POLITICAL AND MILITARY FORCES PRESENT ON
11
E.O. 12356. N/A
TAGS: PINS, PIER. PINS. LE
SUBJECT: INTERVIEW WITH SHIA CLERIC MUHAMMAD HUSSAYN
THE GROUND. OTHERWISE, IT WILL TRANSFORM ITSELF '
? UNCLASSIFIED
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QUICKLY INTO ? PARTY TO THE CONFLICT AND WILL IN-
CREASE EVEN FURTHER THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PROBLEM.
ANY SOLUTION IN LEBANON MUST PASS THROGH INTERNAL-,
=MEW
BUT IS THIS AGREEMENT POSSIBLE?
--WITH THE TRADITIONAL FIGURES NHO FOR YEARS HAVE
CONTROLLED THE POLITICAL SITUATION IN LEBAION. IT
SEEMS TO BE DIFFICULT. SOME_OF_THEMYHO eAVE?
NIAGEU: FOR FIFIX_ILLMLAOLHErtne AND GIVE AE
friouNelejiieeLe.
BUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION IS EVEN ACRE EXTREMIST
THAN THE OLDER ONE. IT HAS NO EXPERIENCE OF CO-
EXISTENCE...
--THIS IS TRUE. Thle_aew_luMRATION wAl BORNJON_
THLBAI/LEEIELO?LT_PRACTIOES_ROLITICS WITH 4_
RIFLE. BUT If .WE MANAGE TO SILENCE THE RIFLE.
ITKNOW HOW TO SPEAK BETTER THAN THE OLDER_
GENERATION, THE LATTER IS USING IT TO BARGAIN
WITH. JUST AS IT USES TENSION ON THE GROuND. BUT
WHY NOT LET THE REOPLE SPEAK WHO. UNTIL NOw. CONTINUE
TO LIVE THE EXPERIENCE OF COEXISTENCE? I CO NOT
THINK THERE WOULD BE ANY GREAT PROBLEM BUWEEN
CHRISTIAN ANO MUSLIN WORKERS. CHRISTIAN AND NuSLIM
STUDENTS. ETC. I LIVED FOR A LONG TIME IN NASA'
AND I NEVER SUFFERED ANY PROBLEM CF THAT KIND.
BUT YOU LEFT NASA'.
--I LEFT TWO DAYS BEFORE THE OCCUPATION OF THAT
NEIGHeoRHOOD. MY HuSSAYNIyAH HAD NO mORE REASON
FCR BEING. BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT COEXIS-
TENCE NO LONGER EXISTS. FIGHTING BETWEEN CHRISTIANS
AND MuSLIMS IS NOT ALWAYS DUE TO A CONFESSIONAL
PROBLEM. LET THOSE wHO SQUEEZE THIS COUNTRY IN A '
VISE OF HATRED BY TRYING TO SHARPEN CONFESSIONAL
SENTIMENTS LIFT THEIR BLOCKADE AND ALLOW THE PEOPLE
FINALLY TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES FREELY. EXCAuSE
FINALLY THE LEBANESE. CHRISTIANS AND musums. ARE
FIGHTING FOR LIFE; ALL ARE SUFFERING FROM THE
ECONOMIC CRISIS, INDEPENDENTLY OF THEIR CONFESSION.
10. WHAT 00 YOU THINK OF THE -CANTONS- FORmuLA?
--I DON'T BELIEVE IN /T. I STUDIED IT DISPASSIONATELY,
SCIENTIFICALLY. I READ THE DECLARATIONS OF KARIm
PAKRADUNI AND OTHERS ON THE SUBJECT AND FRA/KLY.
THIS PROJECT APPEARS TO ME ILLOGICAL. WHAT IS THE
UTILITY OF THIS FORmuLA? THAT muSLIMS NOT LIVE
UNDER CHRISTIAN DOMINATION AND viCE VERSA? THIS
MEANS THAT IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO EMPTY THE SHuF
OF ALL CHRISTIANS. AS WELL AS THE SOUTH. ETC.
AND IF SOME WISH TO STAY IN THE REGIONS. THEY WILL
MORE THAN EVER FEEL DOMINATED AND THEIR HATRED
WILL BECOME FIERCE. THE COmPLEAITY OP THE
-CHRISTIAN-mUSLIM CONFLICT" WILL BECOME GREATER.
BECAUSE IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO CO INTO DETAIL.
THE GENERAL PROBLEM WILL awe BIRTH TO muLTITUDE
OF LOCAL PROBLEMS THAT ARE 01FPICuLT TO RESOLVE.
AN ENORmOuS OISPLACEmENT OF THE POPULATION WILL
BE NEEDED TO OVERCOME THEM. THIS IS ICT EASY TO
CARRY OUT. NO. THOSE wHO PROPOSE THIS FORMuLA
ARE NEITHER REALISTIC NOR SERIOUS. ONLY THE uNITARY
STATE. ALTKE_SERVICE_CLALLill?RESION5IX--
RESOLVE OUR PROBLEM.
IT.---wHAT a? VOL THINK OF THE NBA KARAmi GOvERNmENT?
UNCLASSIFIED
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p04,0114.o?astmonfiremwestroffsem watartagutsswara csoxigataiseausgass
2012/08/30: CIA-RDP05-01507R000100050038-9
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--I THINK THAT THE GREEN LIGHT FOR THE SOLUTION .
HAS PCT YET BEEN GIVEN. THIS IS WH1 IT IS A
MATTER NOV OF ? CARETAKER GOvERNmENT. BUT 41.50
? GEMRNmENT FOR FREEZING THE CRISIS. AN ATTEMPT
IS EEING MADE TO INTRODUCE A RATIONAL ELEMENT INTO
OUR CRISIS SO THAT IT WILL NOT BE A THREAT TO THE
REGION. WHICH IN ITS TuaN IS ALSO GOING THROU61
A SERIOuS CRISIS.
E.O. 12356: Nit
TAGS: PINS, PIER. PINS. LE
SLSJECT. INTERVIEW WITH HIP CLERIC MUHAMMAD 14.ISSAYN
12. SAYID mumAmMAD HUSSAIN FADLALLAH. COULD YOU
SPEAK TO US OF YOURSELF?
--I AM LEBANESE. FR Om AYNATA IN BINT .ATL. (MN
FATHER STILL LIVES THERE.) MS FAMILY DESCENDS
FROm THE PROPHET. I WAS BORN IN NAJAF (IRAQ).
I STuDIEC THERE AND PARTICIPATED IN MANN RELIGIOUS
ACTIVITIES. IN 1966 I ARRIVED IN LEBANON. I
INSTALLED MYSELF IN NASA'. wHERE I FOUNDED A SOCIAL
?50 CULTURAL CULTURAL INSTITUTION THAT STILL EXISTS. WHEN
NASA' FELL. I CAME TO vire AL-ASC. WHERE I FOUNDED ?
AN INSTITUTION FOR ORPHANS IN THE NAME OF THE
IMAM MHO.I ISICI, wHOSE REPRESENTATIVE I AM IN
6E142. IT IS NOT AN HONORIFIC TITLE. IT IS THE
HIGHEST AUTHORIT\ AT THE LEVEL OF THE SHIITE IJTIHAD
(THE 'mem Ke0.I HAS HIS SEAT AT NAJAF). I HAVE
WRITTEN A RIDGE OF WORKS ON ISLAM AND I TEACH IN
SEVERAL SCH3OLS. .
THEN Sr. YOU ARE THE PRINCIPAL RIVAL OF SHAYKH
MUHAMMAD NAHDI SHAMS AD-DIN?
"???
--ND. IT 15 OUT OF THE QUESTION. I LIKE TO WORK
FREELY WITHOUT ANY OFFICIAL CAPACITY. END TEXT.
PuGH
END OF MESSAGE UNCLASSIFIED
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7.4