WORKING PAPER REPORT - 8 DEC 1982

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: STARGATE
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP96-00788R001600180002-5
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 23
• Document Creation Date: November 4, 2016
• Document Release Date: June 19, 1998
• Sequence Number: 2
• Content Type: TRANS

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REPORT - 8 DEC 1982
SPEAKER #1: Regarding the report dated 8 December 1982,
this seems to be an overview of activities that
take place within this building or institute or
whatever it is. And it seems to cover two types
of activities. The first, besides the
scientific activities, one seems to a record
keeping facility and just some sort of record
keeping. It's not clear from the first one,
what exactly it is. But then there are
indications, particularly from the drawings,
drawing #4 looks like a projection of a, and
also going on the description from the text, a
projection of a circuitry path traced on a, a
semi-conducting substrate or silicon, substrate
and Ill refer to this later and subsequent
reports. The drawing on page #5 there, at first
I thought it looked like a hook up of various
leads into some micro processor or other
electronic device for testing. But in
subsequent reading, I think may be instead some
sort of strain testing mechanism, so we may be
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talking about two different activities, one
related to electronic, miniaturized electronic
chips and another one to more basic testing of,
of the performance of a material, in terms of
its physical. properties.
SPEAKER #1: With regard to what the nature of the material
might 'be, it's important to remember that
semi-conducting materials aren't normally
elemental, pure elemental materials, for
instance, when you talk about silicon being a
substrate for a microelectronic chip and.
something like that, you are talking about pure
silicon but whether it's considered a metal or
ceramic is a moot point. It's actually a
metaloid or semi-metalic type of material, all
right. It has conducting properties, but it
does not have many of the physical properties of
metal. It's, for instance, very brittle. Pure
silicon is very, is very light, gray, metallic
shiny, but very brittle material. Now, when
many times you alter the properties of those
materials by introducing a very low level
impurity, a doping and you can do that in a
variety of methods. Some could be -thermal
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methods, like you could mix them together and
heat them up or there's a whole wide variety.
You know, you could conceivably implant
impurities within a material, with an ionic
beam. There's also some different ways of doing
it. And there may be some of that going on here.
SPEAKER #1: This reference to the report of 6 Jan 1983,
there is very little that I got out of this,
just some references to, it sounds like it could
be chemical. operations taking place, but there's
really not too much that I can draw from. This
particular report just sounds like an institute
where, well, as described in report both
training and research is taking place and that's
common, in all my experience has been that those
are common activities in a research institute,
both training and original research.
SPEAKER #1: All right, with reference to the report dated 12
January 1983, the reference to data storage on
fold out sheets and the drawing of the sheets,
suggest a couple possibilities. The drawings of
the sheets showing connections of various
lines. These could be, for instance, passed to
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various decision points to various tests in a
decisiontry and kind of mapping out a, an
experimental plan and they could, numbers
(mumble) and could report the results of the
measurements made at -those different points.
The other possibility is that they could be
schematic representations of pathways by
sub-atomic particles through a material and by
some means a measurement was made as pathways
change, perhaps the density of whatever
deflected the particle that was moving or some
sort of estimate of its size or its other
properties at that point. The last thing it
possibly could be, it just comes from the fact
that it looks like could. be a crystaline
material, with a bunch of grain boundaries and
measurements are made at the junction of IL Lin
boundaries. Measurements like that would refer
to the purity of the material, the presence of
impurities at grain boundaries, where they
normally tend to gather in a polycrystine
material. Those are three possibilities of what
that could represent.
SPEAKER .lc The second picture is, as I said before, looks
for all the world, like particle tracks in a
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cloud chamber and this, going back to the test,
refers to measurements made and recorded on that
previous sheet on drawing #1. This could go
back to what we were talking about before, about
a, beam or more single particle, either a beam
of particles or single particles fired into a
material and the tracks left by it as it passes
through the material. Now this could just be to
determine the properties of the material, that's
the target material.., or it could be an effort to
doping that material in various, very precise
positions within its crystaline lattice or its
structure with impurities or dopents.
SPEAKER #1: With regard to the report dated 18 January 1983,
there's a. description of plastics sheets with
drawings on then. And the fact that several
colors were used to make the different tracks on
each sheet and that they were placed together.
This, to me, sounds like a good way to construct
on a size observable by someone doing testing or
just trying to put together a conceptual model
of it. A representations of a stack of
semi-conductor or electronic su.b-strates, upon
which various circuitry paths have been traced.
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You see, the impression I get from this is that
what is being constructed here is very densely
eked, microelectronic chips, rather than just
having a chips circuitry traced out on a single,
should be possible to trace out circuitry on one
layer, and then take another chip and put it on
top and then be able to bore through and you'd
wind up doing this with laser beams or something
like that, very small size. And be able to
stack a whole bunch of these on top of each
other, so instead of just having a chip of just
two dimensions on a substrate, you combine the
two and actually build a three dimensional,
although very small chip and then you can, once
the magnitude increased the density of circuitry
that you could put together on the same little,
itty, bitty thing. And by tracing out the
circuit pathways on these plastic sheets and
then stacking, you get a feeling, you know, for
somebody trying to design these things, how they
would, all fit together, that would certainly be
helpful in trying to conceptualize how to cut
the pad on each individual layer and how they.
would be fitted together.
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SPEAKER #2: So you think this is a, could possibly be a
either a research and development, fabrication
facility or--)
SPEAKER #1: Well, since they're doing all sorts of
comparisons here and fitting them, it's like
they're trying to invent the chip, they're
trying to put it together. They have an idea of
what they want and they're trying to make a
prototype out of it.
SPEAKER #2: Okay, well now let me ask this. Could they also
ge reverse engineering, taking the chip that
they've gotten somewhere else, and taking it
apart, is there any indication, so far, in what
you've read, that they're doing that?
SPEAKER #1: Well, yeah, yeah, you could just as easily do it
the opposite way, particularly if you're paying
so much attention looking at something here,
looking at each layer, you could be, for
instance, taking, stripping away a little
section, taking a look at it, tracing out what
it was, stripping away the next section, tracing
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it out, and then after you've done that, you
take all the tracings that you've made on these
plastic sheets. And now you know what each
layer is and you can then put it back together,
see how it was made or what function it
performed, again, I'm just speaking, you know,
in general terms, since I don't know how all
things are put together, but I know the basic
concept behind that. Yeah, it could be, yeah,
it's gin. equal possibility, particularly
considering what we saw in the other, previously
mentioned report, in this case, the report was
the one dated 8 December 1982, where is a
projection of, what looked to me like a circuit
pattern on an electronic chip. so,..yeah it
could be, you could be just peeling one of these
things apart, layer by layer. I know
conceptually it's possible to put together
devices like that, I don't know whether they
really are or not, that certainly would be a way
of taking them apart.
SPEAKER #1: There are other references in the same 18
January 1983 report to spinning materials. By
spinning, I mean creating a sample, like a beat
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or a fiberbine, by melting in SLINE and
getting something to come off it, but it's
really not clear exactly what this might be.
There's reference to substances being added,
these could be dopents, for instance, but that
fact that there's not reference here to any high
temperature possessing, makes me wonder exactly
whether this makes sense. Whether you can add
these dopents at room temperature under ambient
conditions, maybe you. can, because one reference
is made to the fact that the material seems
plastic. Now the question is, is that plastic
like you're accustom to handling, a plastic
telephone, it that plastic mean it's moldable.
I get the impression from their discussion that
they're talking about something like a an
organic piece of matter like a telephone
receiver, something like that. Now, if that was
the case, that could refer to, like we were
talking about before, silicon. If someone gave
you a sheet of silicon and, you didn't know what
it was, you'd say "oh, that's a, that's a piece
of plastic, because it feels like plastic, it's
light like plastic and it's got a luster that's
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common t ' :; , ,;
r' or something like that. You
wouldn't know unless I told you. You could snap
it and it would snap like plastic, but it would
really be elemental silicon.
SPEAKER #2: What is the key element you, need to know that's
not in there, right now, as far as that spinning
process?
SPEAKER #1: Well, is it done at room temperature or, for
instance this could be a way for making
amorphous metals, you know. Where, what happens
is, is you--
SPEAKER #2: --Like metal glass?
SPEAKER #1: Yeah metal glasses, yeah, what happens there,
one way of making it, is by having a molten bath
of material and having a wheel that dips into
that molten bath (mumble) at extremely high
temperatures and having the molten bath fluid
enough so that wheel just scoops out the
thinnest layer of all and immediately slings it
out to the open air, on to cool chamber. And
doing that it quenches so quickly that it
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maintains its amorphous state and never
crystalizes. That could be what's going on
here. And in that case, the only high
temperature part is in that bath part, but the
whole collection area, you know, you need enough
room to collect that stuff for it to quench,
being thrown out to the air like that. That
would all be done, that would all be at room
temperature. As a matter of fact, you don't
want hot there, all you want is to cool, so that
the stuff quenches quickly. So that could be
what's going on, but why the material, or how
the material is being spun would be a good thing
to know. Is there a hot end at one end and then
is all the rest of the operation being used to
collect, to quench whatever material may be
spun. This is just a guess at what that could
SPEAKER #2: What do you think this white pen is?
SPEAKER #1: I don't know. The way they describe it.
SPEAKER #2: How about some of the drawings in here, could we
discusses--
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SPEAKER #1: Yeah, there's drawings that make reference to
the pen.
SPEAKER #2: Okay, how about an electron microscope, could
that by chance be a symbolic description of an
electron microscope?
SPEAKER #1: Well, (delete), not the way its being described
being used here. Sounds as if this pen is like
a wand. An electron microscope really is a very
large instrument. The only way an electron beam
could travel is in a perfect vacuum or very
close to a vacuum. So that means usually the
column in which the beam is propagated is
(Mumble) not only that you use magnetic lenses
to focus that beam, cause normally an electron
beam's pretty diffuse and has to be focussed on
an area. This sounds like a wand. Now the only
thing that could produce something like that, in
my mind, would be, it could either be, again, a
beam of light, coherent light or incoherent
light, for instance, it could be a laser beam.
But the impression I get is that, that this beam
only extends a certain distance. It does not
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continue until it impinges on something, it's
like it sticks out a foot or something like
that. Although that's not for sure, it would be
interesting to know whether the beam continues
until it impinges or whether it just has a
certain length. If it only has a certain
length, then it makes me think that it's, well,
like a plasma chet or something like that.
Although, those are usually very difficult to
generate too. Sounds like a little blow torch
or butane torch or something like that. But, a
plasma is very difficult to generate--
SPEAKER #2: Could that be used. in testing the density or
heat, fix the hest on--?
SPEAKER #1: I don't know, it could be. It's hard for me to,
I really can't figure out what that thing is
doing there. It really doesn't make any sense
to me at all.
SPEAKER #2: Okay.
SPEAKER #1: The blueprint drawings, I think are very--
SPEAKER #2: (Drawing #5?
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SPEAKER #1: Yeah, drawing #5, in this case, is titled
blueprint area. That and drawing #6? The
patterns there and on page #7 and the junctions
look for all the world to me like all the
pictures I've ever seen. of the circuit patterns
traced on a semi-conductor wafer, silicon wafer
or something like that.
SPEAKER #2: What could those be used for, anything or are
they used for computers?-
SPEAKER #1: Yeah, computers, ah...sure. You know, you
design the chip to do it and all the devices are
built into the chip, because the devices
themselves are composed of the materials that
make up the chips.
SPEAKER #2: What would you need to know about those drawings
here to find out what function that particular
drawing did, like a (knowledge)
and closing or relay or whatever?
SPEAKER #1: I wouldn't be able to, because I really don't
electronics. You need :somebody who would have
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to be able to decipher that stuff. And he would
have to know, you know, what the various little
devices are that are on it.
SPEAKER #2: But if he could get the description, a lot
items as I understand, they (mumble), they mean
whoever frabricates microchips. What each layer
that chip does, like you got a knowledge
circuit, you got logic circuit, you got a, I
don't know, but there, it's is a different
circuit has differnet functions, a lot of times
it will be (LABELED)(?).
SPEAKER #1: Yeah, it could be. But I just know what they
look like, I can't interpret them. at all.
SPEAKER #2: What about this one?
SPEAKER #1: All right, which one? All right, this drawing
#3, I can't make head nor tail out of it.
SPEAKER #2: How about #2?
SPEAKER #1: All right, #2, this is supposed to be a
representation of, I believe, the materials that
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come out that spinning operation. And it could
indicate whether the material truly came out as
an amorphous material or whether the stuff that
was spun came out with a crystaline pattern.
Amorphous materials will not have any crystal
structure, but they can have grain boundaries.
They can, you know, they can freeze into little
pieces.
SPEAKER #2: (where they got labeled here, very tiny nodules,
surrounded crystals, would that in fact not be
crystal, it would be amorphous?)
SPEAKER #1: Oh, it could be amorphous, yeah.
SPEAKER #2: Aren't crystals normally round?
SPEAKER #1: Well, well, it's hard to say, it could depend on
the magnification. Something could look round
if it was very low magnification and blown up
high enough, you could see that it had the
cleavage lines and the characteristic
crystallographic axis that indicated as
crystaline material. `hike I said, it's often
times a matter of magnification.
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SPEAKER #2: What do you think this drawing #1 is, in the
white room?
SPEAKER #1: Yeah.
SPEAKER #2: What do you think that is just out of curiosity?
SPEAKER #1: 1 don't know, it just looks like samples
stacked up for some sort of, for the handling.
Ah, I mean, hang on, a second. Now, well, it's
hard to say, for instance, you could stack up,
it says there's layers, squares of layers,
somewhere between metallic and plastic. For
instance, what you could do, is when sometimes
when you grow silicon, single crystal silicon,
you wind up growing a large piece called a boule
or something like that. Usually it grows and
it's like a giant cucumber, just grows and from
that, wafers are cut layer by layer. And then
if you further cut them up, you might mount them
in something like this for, for some production
technique, where you need them lined up. But,
you know, I'm just guessing. It's really hard
to say what that might be.
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SPEAKER #1: All right the description in the report dated 19
January 1983, it goes back to the general
reference made in the original report on 8
December 1982, to the second portion where
they're talking about some material with spider
legs coming out of it. When I first saw that in
the 8 December report, I thought it was
conductor lines hooked up to some electronic
device, you know, some microprocessor chip or
something like that for testing. But then as
you go through this description here, it sounds
an awful lot like they are testing some material
for its strength properties. What it sounds
like their doing, is that they've got a whole
'bunch of different compositions and they're
periodically doping this composition, they're,
putting in different amounts, you know, in a
very precise manner, 1/10 of one percent in this
one, 2/10 of on percent in the next one, all the
way through the line and then from the
description of the processing unit sounds like
that they're then firing that or heating that up
at various temperatures. So they got different
compositions they're testing and then all those
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compositions at different temperatures. And
that sounds like they put together two of these
and fired it together with this metal grid
inside, which sounds to me like some sort of
strain gage, right? And then, but it could 'be,
for instance, a piezoelectric strain gage or
these could be piezoelectric devices that
they're testing. And -those are just devices
that will. transmit a current or potential based
on physical defirmation and that's what sounds
like they're testing here. And from the number
items being put together in terms of
compositions and various colors given to these
things which I interpret as different
temperatures because, sure enough, you could
heat something up to white hot down to cherry
red. Those are common terms used in high
temperature. It's a ball park figure of how hot
it is. That could be what is going on there.
Now, it's not clear to me how these things are
put together later. Sure looks, when these
things are put together with the wire mesh, I'm
referring now to drawing
something put together for strain testing, in
compression or tension. But how these things
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are put together, there's a first pattern there
and a second pattern. I have no ides. what that
might represent, unless these little pieces are
really not test pieces but actual. final shapes,
which would be put together in some sort of
pattern.
SPEAKER #1: The following page, page #4, that looks, that
might be taking this same material. and putting,
forming it into an irregular shape and geeing
how well it withstands impact, at various
points-
SPEAKER #2: Kinetic energy type impacts, do you think?
Well, it looks to me like a kinetic energy.
SPEAKER #l: Yeah, it could be kinetic energy or, yeah,
sure, that could be it. You know, that when I
see those discs put together in a network back
on page #3, it makes me think of the shapes that
are used to put together in a mixed matrix array
for armor purposes and that could be how those
things, for instance, you might decide to, just
as speculation, might decide to, besides testing
this way, this may actually be put together with
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those wires there for, to be tied together and
held together in a, like chicken wire, upon
which then you forged metal, molten metal, you
know, poured it :right on top and those wires
would hold everything, all the little discs into
place until the casting was complete. That's a
completely different possibility. But it could
be, you know. So that's what that could be, and
I really can't make any estimation about what #5
or #6 is, they're just building shapes.
SPEAKER #1: Then finally the report dated 17 February 1983,
just makes references to general buildings that
really have no meaning to me. So it sounds to
me like there's two different activities going
on here. Something that sure sounds like a very
densely packed electronic chip manufacture or,
as you say, could be taking one of those babies
apart. And it would be easy enough to take them
a :part, I think. You could ion, mill off layer
by layer very easily and then take a look at
what's going on there. Those kind of techniques
should be easy for anybody whose--
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SPEAKER #2: Does that coincide with this first report up
here where they're projecting thing up on the
wall and storing them maybe like computer discs
or tapes, could that be what they're doing, like
here in this drawing #4, would that be like
projecting the, I mean, of course they could be
doing it for their own development too, it could
go either way.
SPEAKER #1: Yeah, that's right, it could go either way.
They could be photographing a device and
projecting it up there for, then subsequent, no,
drawing on those plastics sheets, for instance,
to strip the--
SPEAKER-#2: So this particular process here can be either
way. There's nothing that says it would make it
more one function than another.
SPEAKER #1: Right, for instance, this could be a quality
control function, you know, or in prototype
development to see whether they're etching
technique to make all these little circuit lines
was correct, you know whether it came up to
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specification, which you would be doing, for
instance, if you were making a chip, you. know,
to do something else. So it could go either
way, there's no reason to indicate it be taking
a device apart or doing the work to invent a
device, it's just not clear. So those are my
impressions,
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