REORGANIZATION PLAN NO.4 OF 1965 (INTERAGENCY COMMITTEES)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP67B00446R000500220001-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 57
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 23, 2003
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: July 14, 1965
• Content Type: REPORT

Approved For Release REORGA15 ClA8P 7 0fO002 0DF 1965
(INTERAGENCY COMMITTEES)
N 01 r~ znzz~/
HEARING
BEFORE A rl
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE.
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Government Operations
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
51-207 WASHINGTON : 1965
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Illinois, Chairman
CHET IIOLIFIELD, California
JACK BROOKS, Texas
L. H. FOUNTAIN, North Carolina
PORTER HARDY, JR., Vlrglnla
JOHN A. BLATNIK, Mumesota
ROBERT E. JONES, Ala Damn
EDWARD A. GARMATE, Maryland
JOHN E. MOSS, California
DANTE B. FASCELL, Florida
HENRY S. REUSS, Wisa,nsln
JOHN S. MONACAN, Connecticut
TORBERT H. MACDONALD, Massachusetts
1. EDWARD IIOUSII, Indiana
WILLIAM S. MOORIIK.4 D, Pennsylvania
CORNELIUS E. GALLAGHER, New Jersey
WILLIAM J. RANDALL, Missouri
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHAL, Now York
JIM WRIGHT, Texas
FERNAND J. ST GERMAIN, Rhode Island
DAVID S. KING, Utah
JOHN G. DOW, New York
HENRY IIELSTOSKI, New Jersey
CLARENCE J. BROWN, Ohio
FLORENCE P. DWYER, Now Jersey
ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan
OGDEN R. REID, New York
FRANK J. HORTON, New York
DELBERT L. LATTA, Ohio
DONALD RUMSFELD, Illinois
WILLIAM L. DICKINSON, Alabama
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
HOWARD H. CALLAWAY, Georgia
JOHN W. WYDLER, Now York
CHRISTINE RAY DAVIS, Staff Director
JAMES A. LANIOAN, General Counsel
MILES Q. RoMNEY, Associate General Cbunael
J. P. CARLSON, Minority Counsel
RLYMOND T. COLLINS, Minority ProfedalonalStaff
EXECUTIVE AYD LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Illinois, Chairman
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHAL, New York CLARENCE J. BROWN, Ohl,
CHET HOLIFIELD, California JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
HENRY S. REUSS, Wisconsin JOHN W. WYDLER, New York
EDWARD A. GARMATZ, Maryland
CORNELIUS E. GALLAG IER, Now Jersey
ELMER W.HENDERSON, Counsel
Louis I. FREED, Incestyator
VERONICA B. JonxsoN, Clerk
 Message from the President of the United States, transmitting Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 4 of 1965, relative to reorganizations of various com-
page
mittees and other similar bodies___________________________________
1
Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965___________________________________
3
Statement of Harold Seidman, Assistant Director for Management and
Organization, Bureau of the Budget; accompanied by Fred Levi,
Assistant Chief-------------------------------------------------
4
Information submitted for the record by Harold Seidman Assistant
Director for Management and Organization, Bureau of the budget:
Excerpt from message of the President in transmitting Reorganization
Plan No. 4 of 1965----------------------------------------
5
List of additional executive branch interagency committees which
might have been included in Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965_-_
7
APPENDIX
Memorandum from Pion. Lyndon B. Johnson, President of the United
States, for the heads of departments and agencies, February 25,1965---
13
Memorandum from Kermit Gordon, Director, Bureau of the Budget, to the
heads of executive departments and establishments, March 2, 1964____
13
Attachment-Data to be maintained in agency committee manage-
ment files----------------------------------------------
16
 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
(Interagency Committees)
WEDNESDAY, JULY 14, 1965
Housm OF REPRESENTATIVES,
EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE
REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2203,
Rayburn Office Building, Hon. William L. Dawson (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives William L. Dawson, Henry S. Reuss,
John N. Erlenborn, and John W. Wydler.
Also present: Elmer W. Henderson, subcommittee counsel; James
A. Lanigan, general counsel Committee on Government Operations;
and J. P. Carlson, minority counsel.
(Message from the President transmitting Reorganization Plan No.
4 of 1965 follows:)
MESSAGE FROM TAE PRESIDENT OR THE UNITED STATES, TRANSMITTING REORGA-
NIZATION PLAN No. 4 OF 1965, RELATIVE TO REORGANIZATIONS OF VARIOUS
COMMITTEES AND OTHER SIMILAR BODIES
To the Congress of the United States:
I transmit herewith Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965, prepared in accordance
with the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended, and providing for reorgani-
zations of various committees and other similar bodies.
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Government's adaptability, on its capacity for fast flexible response to
changing needs imposed by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount new challenges.
As government grows more complex and programs increasingly out across
traditional agency lines, we must exercise special care to prevent the continuance
of obsolete interagency committees and other coordinating devices which waste
time and delay action and the undue proliferation of now committees. Inter-
agency committees are a valuable and often indispensable means of facilitating
coordination, but we should be sure that a committee is the most efficient way to
accomplish a given task and that it is structured to moot current needs off octively.
At my direction, guidelines for the management of interagency committees have
been established. I have recently asked the heads of departments and agencies
to give their personal attention to a complete review of all the interagency com-
mittees in which their agencies participate to determine which ones might be
eliminated, consolidated or otherwise reorganized. We will take appropriate
action to obtain essential improvements in the organization and use of those
committees which have been established by the executive branch.
The reorganizations accomplished by the reorganization plan transmitted here-
with will enable us to take similar action with respect to a number of committees
which have been established by statute. In many instances the statutory pro-
visions creating these committees are very specific as to membership and describe
1
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in detail the functions to be performed. These provisions are rarely sufficiently
flexible to permit the membership or role of the committees to be accommodated
to changing circumstances or to permit their termination when they have outlived
their usefulness.
The accompanyin.; reorganization plan will abolish nine statutory committees.
In each case the responsibility for providing suitable arrangements to assure
effective consultation and coordination is placed in a specific official. Wherever
the continuing need for and usefulness of a committee has been demonstrated,
I would anticipate tie establishment of a successor committee along the general
lines of the body now provided by law. Certainly prompt action will be taken to
create successor committees to such bodies as the Board of Foreign Service and
the National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems.
But we will have the flexibility promptly to make such changes in functions and
membership as might he required to eliminate overlapping and duplication and
to adjust to the development of new programs and shifts in executive branch
responsibilities.
A number of the committees affected by the reorganization plan are advisory
to the President or have functionswhich are closely, related to responsibilities
already vested in the President. The functions of those committees will be trans-
ferred to the President by the reorganization plan. The functions of the others
will be transferred to the appropriate individual agency heads.
The management and control of interagency committees have been a matter
of growing concern tc both the executive branch and the Congress. The taking
effect of the reorgani cation plan will contribute significantly to better manage-
ment of interagency committees and, will assist efforts to simplify and modernize
coordinating arrangements within the executive branch.
Executive Order No. 10940 of May 11, 1961, provides for the President's
Committee on Juvenile Deliquency and Youth Crime. The Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare is required to consult with that committee on matters of
general polio y and preecdure arising in the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency and Youth Offenses Control Act of 1961 and to consider certain recom-
mendations of that committee (42 U.S.C.. 2546(b)). To require the Secretary
by law to consult with a committee established by Executive order is clearly
anomalous. The plait abolishes the: relevant functions of the Secretary with
respect to consulting and considering the recommendations of the President's
Committee. The reel ganization plan does not otherwise affect the Committee;
it has no effect upon Executive Order No. 10940. The statutory authority for
the exercise of the functions to be abolished by section 13(b) of the reorganization
plan is contained in section 7(b) of the Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses
Control Act of 1961 (75 Stat. 574).
After investigation l have found and hereby declare that each reorganization
included in Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965 is necessary to accomplish one or
more of the purposes set forth in section 2(a) of the Reorganization Act of 1949,
as amended.
Although the reorga rizations provided for in the reorganization plan will not
of themselves result in immediate savings, the improvement achieved in adminis-
tration will in the futui e allow the performance of the affected functions at lower
costs and in a more timely manner than at present. It is however, impracticable
to specify or itemize at this time the reductions of expenditures which it is prob-
able will be brou3ht about by the taking effect of the reorganizations included
in the reorganization plin.
I recommend that tha Congress allow the accompanying reorganization plan to
become effective.
LYNDON B. JOHNSON.
 REORGANIZATION PLAN 2Wr 4 OF 1n r
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Prepared by the President and transmitted to the Senate and the House of Representatives In Congress
assembled, May 27, 1965, pursuant to the provisions of the Reorganization Act of 1949 (63 Star. 203), as
amended
SECTION I. Transfer of functions. All functions of each of the following-named
bodies, together with all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of each
thereof, are hereby transferred to the President of the United States:
(a) The National Housing Council, provided for in section 6 of Reorganiza-
tion Plan No. 3 of 1947 (61 Stat, 055) as affected by (i) section 502(a) of the
Housing Act of 1948 (62 Stat. 1283; 12 U.S.C. 1701c), (ii) section 603 of the
housing Act of 1949 (63 Stat. 440; 12 U.S.C. 1701i), and by (iii) section 615 of
the Defense Housing and Community Facilities and Services Act of 1951 (65
Stat. 317; 12 U.S.G. 17011-1).
(b) The National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial
Problems, provided for in section 4 of the Bretton Woods Agreements Act (59
Star. 512), as amended (22 U.S.C. 286b).
(e) The Board of the Foreign Service, provided for in section 211 of the Foreign
Service Act of 1946 (60 Stat. 1001; 22 U.S.C. 826).
/(d) The Board of Examiners for the Foreign Service, provided for in section
12 of the Foreign Service Act of 1946 (22 U.S.C. 827).
(e) The Civilian-Military Liaison Committee, provided for in section 204 of
the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (72 Star. 431), as amended
(42 U.S.C. 2474).
See. 2. Performance of transferred functions. The President may from time to
time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing the perform-
ance of the functions transferred by the provisions of section 1 of this reorgani-
zation plan by any other officers of the executive branch of the Government or
by any agencies or employees of that branch.
See. 3. Abolition of bodies. (a) Each of the bodies referred to in paragraphs
(a) to (e), inclusive, of section 1 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
(b) The President shall snake or cause to be made such provisions as may be
necessary with respect to the winding tip of any outstanding affairs of the bodies
abolished by the provisions of section 3 of this reorganization plan.
Section It. Transfer of functions. (a) There are hereby transferred to the
Chairman of the United States Civil Service Commission all functions of the
Advisory Council on Group Insurance, provided for in section 12(a) of the Federal
Employees' Group Life Insurance Act of 1954 (68 Stat. 742; 5 U.S.C. 2101(a)).
(b) There are hereby transferred to the Administrator of the Small Business
Administration all functions of the Loan Policy Board of the Small Business
Administration, provided for in section 4(d) of the Small Business Act (72 Stat.
385; 15 U.S.C. 633(d)).
(c) There are hereby transferred to the Secretary of the Interior all functions
of the advisory board provided for in section 2(a) of the Act of August 20, 1937
(50 Stat. 732), as amended (16 U.S,C. 832a(a)), commonly referred to as the
Byyyyynneville Power Advisory Board.
(d) There are hereby transferred to the Attorney General all functions of the
f/Awards Board provided for in section 3 of the Atomic Weapons Rewards Act of
1955 (69 Stat. 365; 50 U.S.C. 47b).
(e) The transfers made by subsections (a) to (d), inclusive, of this section shall
be doomed to include all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of the
respective transferor bodies referred to in those subsections.
See. 12. Performance of transferred functions. Each officer to whom functions
are transferred by the provisions of section 11 of this reorganization plan may
from time to time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing
the performance of the functions so transferred to him by his subordinate olllors,
employees, or agencies.
Sec. 13. Abolitions. (a) Each of the bodies the functions of which are trans-
ferred by the provisions of section 11 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
Each officer to whom functions are transferred by those provisions shall make such
 REORGANIZA,i_jN PLAN No. 4 OF 1965
2lQ Approved For Release ='ot L' ',a o o ies t,~ Iun4"R? wi,,`?& re soWtt1ai2ferred toutst o h ending
by(tthe Provisions of se tion 7(b) of the Juv nile Ieinq ency and Louth Offenses
Control Act of 1961'75 Star. 574 (42 U.S.C. 2546(b)) are hereby abolished.
Chairman DAWSON. The subcommittee will come to order.
These hearings lave been called to consider two reorganization plans
transmitted to the Congress on May 27 by President Lyndon B.
Johnson.
Reorganization P31an No. 4 of 1965 transfers the functions of a num-
ber of interagency committees to the President or, in some cases, to
the heads of certain departments and agencies. The committees are
then abolished. It is the opinion of the President that these com-
mittees have become obsolete and no longer serve the purpose intended
for them.
Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965 involves only the National
Science Foundation. A number of divisional committees within that
agency are abolished and the Director of the Foundation is given the
authority to delegate his functions to other officers or employees
within the Foundation.
Mr. Harold Seidman, Assistant Director of the Bureau of the
Budget, will testify on both plans. At the conclusion of his remarks
on Plan No. 4, he will be available for interrogation by the subcom-
mittee on that plan.
Mr. Seidman and Dr. Leland J. Haworth Director of the National
Science Foundation, will then testify on Pfau No. 5 and, of course,
both will be available for interrogation on that plan.
Our first witness will be Mr. Seidman.
Mr. SSEIDMAN. I am always glad to be hero, Mr. Chairman.
I am accompanied, again, by Mr. Fred Levi, Assistant Chief of the
Office of Management and Organization.
Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement. With your permis-
sion, I will proceed.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD SEIDMAN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR
MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATION, BUREAU OF THE BUDGET;
ACCOMPANIED BY FRED LEVI, ASSISTANT CHIEF
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee,
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before your subcommittee
in support of Reorganization Plans Nos. 4 and 5 of 1956. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 4 will abolish nine statutory interagency committees
and eliminate a statutory requirement now applicable to one com-
mittee established by Executive order. In each case all functions
of the abolished committee are transferred, as may be apppropriate,
either to the President or a specifically designated official. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 5 will abolish all functions of the divisional commit-
tees provided for by section 8 of the National Science Foundation
Act and, in addition, will authorize certain delegations by the Director
of the National Science Foundation. The two plans were transmitted
by the President to the Congress on May 27, 1965, pursuant to the
provisions of the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended.
The President has emphasized that there is a continuing need to
reorganize an m r
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provide the most effective administration of current and future
programs. As he stated in transmitting Reorganization Plan No. 4:
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Government's adaptability, on its capacity for fast, flexible response to
changing needs imposed. by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount new challenges.
The need for flexibility and adaptability is particularly critical in the
area of interagency mechanisms for coordinating Federal programs
and providing advice to the President and key officials.
The complexity of modern government often requires that responsi-
bility for related or complementary activities be placed in different
departments and agencies of the executive branch. These programs
must be coordinated in an effort to obtain the best possible utilization
of the Governm.ent's resources. One of the chief mechanisms for
obtaining coordination is the interagency committee.
Committees presently deal with a wide variety of programs and
subjects ranging from national security policy to the coordination of
the use of costly automatic data processing equipment. However,
they are effective only when they are properly utilized. Otherwise,
as the President has said, they waste time, delay action and result
in undesirable compromise. Committees must constantly be to-
viewed to assure that they meet current requirements and are directed
toward useful and productive goals.
While it is possible for the President and the agency heads to adjust
the organization and functions of committees which are established
by Executive action, they do not have the authority to reorganize and
modernize certain committees created in statute. As a result, as
time goes on, those committees often cannot be adapted to meet
changes in law, reassignments of responsibilities within the executive
branch and the development of new programs. The President has
noted that:
In many instances the statutory provisions creating these committees are very
eppeeife as to membership and describe. in detail the. functions to be performed.
these provisions are rarely sufficiently flexible to permit the membership or role
of the. committees to be accommodated to changing circumstances or to permit
their termination when they have outlived their usefulness.
The President has transmitted Reorganization Plan No. 4 to pro-
vide necessary flexibility in carrying out certain coordinating and
advisory functions now vested in specific statutory committees. The
plan would abolish. the National Housing Council, the National
Advisory Council on. International Monetary and Financial Problems,
the Board of the Foreign Service, the Board of Examiners of the'
Foreign Service and the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee estab-
lished in the National Aeronautics and Space Act. Since these
groups carry out functions which may be of direct Presidential con-
cern, the plan provides for the transfer of their functions to the
President and gives him the authority to provide for their performance.
It should be noted that the President has said:
Wherever the continuing need for and usefulness of a committee has been
demonstrated, I would anticipate the establishment of a successor committee
along the general lines of the body now provided by law. Certainly prompt
action will be taken to create successor committees to such bodies as the Board
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of Foreign Service and the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems.
The reorganization plan would also abolish the Advisory Council
on Group Insurance, the Loan Policy Board of the Small Business
Administration, the Bonneville Power Advisory Board and the
Atomic Weapons Awards Board. Those groups perform functions
primarily of concern to certain agency heads, and their functions would
be transferred to those agency heads who would provide for their
performance in an. c.ppropriato manner. Finally, the plan would
abolish the statutory requirement that the Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welf ire consult with the President's Committee on
Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Crime on matters of general policy
and procedures arising in the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency and Youth O:9enses Control Act of 1961 and consider recom-
mendations of that Committee. The President's Committee was
established by Executive Order No. 10940, May 11, 1961.
As It result of the taking effect of the reorganization plan, the
President and the heads of the agencies involved will have the neces-
sary authority and flexibility to Carry out, in a manner appropriate to
meet current needs, tae coordinating and advisory functions of groups
being abolished. The plan will assure that timely and efficient
mechanisms can be utilized. Accordingly, I recommend that Re-
organization Plan No. 4 of 1965 be allowed to become effective.
I would also like to point out that the reorganization plan represents
only a part of the administration's program to control and manage
the approximately 550 interagency committees that now exist.
The guidelines for that program are contained in the Bureau of the
Budget Circular No. A-63, entitled "Management of Interagency
Committees." The circular places the principal responsibility for
committee management on agency heads, requires periodic reviews
and reports, and a positive determination by the agency head before
any committee can continue for longer than 2 years. Under the cir-
cularr the Bureau also retains the authority to approve the use of
certain devices such as dual or rotating chairmanships and the fi-
nancing of committees by agency contributions.
Chairman DAwsoN. Mr. Reuss,
Mr. REUSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Seidman, why does the plan affect these 9 out of the total of
550 interagency committees?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Reuss, most of the 550 were established by
Executive action, so that the President can take the necessary meas-
ures to assure modifications to meet current requirements. In other
words, they have either been established by Executive order of the
President or by administrative action of a department head.
Mr. REUSS. Are these the only nine interagency committees
established by stature?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; they are not.
Mr. REUSS. How many are there?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I think there are approximately 16 such committees.
Mr. REUSE. Wha: about the other seven?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Certain of the other committees which we had
excluded from consideration at this time-I think some are question-
s to whether 'iou can call them committees. Some function in
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in them-such as the Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corpora-
tion, which technically is an interagency committee. It includes
representatives from a number of agencies. But on the other hand,
it acts as a Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corporation. We
excluded that type of body from consideration.
Mr. Riouss. Would you file at this point in the record, Mr. Seidman,
a listing of the seven statutory interagency committees or near com-
mittees not included in this reorganization order, together with some
explanation of why they are not included? I am sure there is a good
explanation in each case.
(The listing requested follows:)
LIST OP ADDITIONAL EXECUTIVE BRANCH INTERAGENCY COMMITTEES WHICH
MIGHT HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN REORGANIZATION PLAN No. 4 or 1965
There are approximately .52 committees established in statute which include
agencies of the executive branch. The largest number of these committees are
public advisory groups with one or two agencies included among the, members.
Several are composed of members from both the legislative a,:Id executive branches.
These two types of committees fall outside the scope of this reorganization plan..
Also excluded from this review are interagency groups which have the status of
agencies (e.g. the National Security Council), have quasi-judicial or operating
functions (e.g. Foreign Trade Zones Board) or act as Boards of Directors for
Federal educational scientific, or cultural activities (e.g. Board of Trustees of the
John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts). The following is a list of the
remaining seven executive branch interagency committees which might have been
included in the reorganization plan along with the reasons they were excluded.
Name Reason the committee was not included in the Plan
1. Board of Geographic Names________ Additional members may be added from
time to time.
2. Adjustment Assistance Advisory President has authority to designate
Board. additional members.
3. Area Redevelopment Advisory The Public Works and Redevelopment
Policy Board. Act of 1965 permits the President to
name all members.
4. Economic Opportunity Council____ Permits the President to add members
from time to time.
5. Committee for Statistical Annota- No specification of membership or dc-
tion of Tariff Schedules. vice to be used.
6. Trade Expansion Act Advisory President has full authority to name the
Committee. members.
7. Development Loan Committee---- President has authority to establish
membership.
Mr. Reuss. A particularly august interagency committee which
you are abolishing under this Reorganization Plan No. 4-though the
President notes that he will reconstitute it--is the National Advisory
Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems, which
was set up under the Bretton Woods legislation in 1944, I believe.
I have had some problems with it in do past because it developed
symptoms of bureaucratic sluggishness. I know that on one occa-
sion Congress was sent a document bearing the imprimatur of the
National Advisory Council, but when I inquired why it had not been
signed by the live members I found out they had not met or really
done anything about it-that somebody in the backroom had pre-
pared their recommendation.
Row will this reorganization plan change the National Advisory
Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I can point to some of the problems, Mr. Reuss,
which have resulted from the statutory status of the National Ad-
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We are now considering within the executive branch-the Treasury
Department has subr'iitted It draft of a proposed Executive order
which would reestabli0i a new-
Mr. RCS USS. Would. the same members --
Mr. SEIDMAN. They are proposing the same mentrbers. One or the
problems here is that at the time of the creation of this council, the
only Significant foreign lending program that we had in the Federal
Government was basically the Export-Lnport Bank. A major con-
cern at the time it was established, was really to determine the U.S.
Government policy in the International Bank and Fund, and to pro-
vide a vehicle for instructing our delegates to the Bank and Fund, and
to coordinate their ac.ivities with the Export-Import Bank.
Of course, since that time we have developed major international
financial programs which are carried out through (lie Agency for
International Development and through the Public Law 480 program
of the Department of Agriculture.
Now, the membership of the NAC remains the same. It includes
the State Department, Conunerce, the Chairman of the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve System, and (lie President of the
Export-Import Bank.
It is it, good question, as to whether the membership ought to be
revised in the light of current programs we are carrying out within
the Federal Government-par1acid irly should the Secretary of Agri-
culture be It member-this is certainly one of the questions which
ought to be considered.
Mr. Rruss. Under this reorganization plan, it could be abolished
and not reconstituted at. all, could it not?
Mr. SEJOMAN. That is right. The President may well determine
under certain circmn,,tances that other arrangements would be more
effective in doing the job that needs to be done.
Mr. Reuss. And as you have indicated, it can equally be recon-
stituted, but with certain present members left off , and others added.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is correct. I do not know what the decision
will be. For example, I know from time to time the Secretary of
Labor has indicated that it might well be appropriate to have the
Department of Labor represented on the NAC.
As programs change, we have not wanted to go up for an amend:
ment, merely to change the membership on one of these committees.
It is time consuming.
Mr. REUSS. I have had frequent opportunities to deal with the
National Advisory Council, and II may say that I am not going
to weep at its funeral here. 1 see no particular reason why it should
be retained as a statutory council. Furthermore, I ani not at all sure,
if I may give some gratuitous advice, that it should be formally re-
constituted once and for all. It is set up to give advice on the Inter-
national Monetary Fund and the World Bank-an agency which now
includes several subsidiaries which did not exist' back then. And I
should think that quite different people might be required to give
advice on, lot us say, tiro IDA aspect of the World Bank, than would
be required to give advice, let us say, on international monetary
matters. Certainly the Secretary of the Treasury ought to give
advice on international monetary matters. But T should think that,
equally, the Director of the AID should be consulted on what becomes
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 Approved For Release 200311011 5R}xD1 &ROO446RAO05O?22OQQ -2
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, that is certainly a type of issue that will be
given very careful consideration.
Mr. WYDLER. Would the gentleman yield to me at this point?
How many times in the last year did the National Advisory Council
moot?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The staff-
Mr. WYDLER. I am talking about the full Council.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The full Council has not met very frequently, and
during the period when Mr. Humphrey was Secretary of the Treasury
under the Eisenhower administration, it did not moot at all.
Mr. REUSS. The gentleman from New York has put his finger on
one of the difficulties. Here you have the Secretary of State and the
Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Commerce, plus other
important officials on this Council. Yet, under the statute, they are
required to give advice on the most picayune little matters concerning
the International Monetary Fund. On at least one occasion I was
distressed to find that this great organism spoke, yet the Secretaries
of State, Treasury, and so on had not really been there, had not met.
And while they later hastily got together and signed the document, it
was not a very good way of giving advice.
Mr. WYDLEU. They ratified it.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I might point out that these committees often do
work informally where they involve Cabinet-level people.
In the case of the NAC there is a very active staff for the committee,
and problems are considered at the staff level in weekly meetings.
This includes not only the staff of the NAC, but of the various agencies.
Very often the principals will talk to each other on the telephone
about some of the issues which are before the Council, rather than
have a formal meeting. But the bulk of the work certainly is done
at the staff level.
Mr. REUSS. Well, I conclude by saying that in general I think this
is a useful reorganization plan. But I would hope that the President
might review his determination as expressed in your statement that
"Prompt action will be taken to create successor committees to such
bodies as the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems." I am not really sure that formal committee
constitution is what is needed to get this kind of advice, and I would
hate to see that done under an Executive order which merely repeats
the stratification that Congress achieved when it put this into the law.
Mr. SEIDMAN. We are now soliciting the views of the other agencies
in the executive branch on the draft proposed by Treasury, and I am
sure we will have suggestions coming from the Department of State
and the Agency for International Development and the Department
of Agriculture and others as to the course of action which ought to
be taken.
I do feel strongly we do need in this particular area a more formal
type of coordinating mechanism. This is without saying exactly
what its function should be or its membership. But I think there is
a need.
Mr. REUSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Erlenborn.
Mr. EannNnonN. I have no questions.
Chairman DAwsoN. Mr. Wydler?
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I would like you to explain the final part of this plan, which is the
reason why we are not goin to have the Secretary of Health, Educa-
tion, and Welfare consult with the President's Committee any longer.
Why is that?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Th,s is a very curious provision in the law. The
President's Committee was set up by Executive order. It was not
set up in law. And then by statute the Secretary of Health, Educa-
tion, and Welfare was required to consult witha committee which
was created by the President byExecutive order. This is a rather
anomalous provision. If the President chose to abolish this commit-
tee, which he has full authority to do, then there would be a question
as to how the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare could
carry out this functiDn assigned to him by law.
Mr. WYDLER. Is this actually creating a real problem, or is this just
something to obviate a problem that might arise, or what?
Mr. SEIDMAN. It obviates a problem that might arise, because it
would create difficul;ios at such time as the President might determine
that the President's Committee had outlived its usefulness, and he
would want to abolish it. But lie would in effect by the existence of
this statutory provision-in effect, be debarred from abolishing the
Committee, unless lie wanted to raise questions with respect to how
the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare administered this act.
This relates to the general program which the President has in-
structed us to carry out within the executive branch. In effect the
President, has said that lie wants each interagency committee reviewed
each 2 years, and if there isn't an affirmative determination by the
responsible official that it needs to be continued, its life ends at the
end onf 2 years.
The President believes-and I think we have made available to the
committee staff a ccpy of the President's statement on the committee
problem-that while the Interagency Committee is a highly useful
and often an indispensable device, when they outlive their usefulness,
they often become serious obstacles to the most efficient, performance
of functions within the executive branch of the Government.
The Jackson subcommittee, in their study of national policy ma-
chinery, in the Senate, went into this at great length-that the inter-
agency committees very often slow down the process of Government
considerably without contributing anything positive.
Mr. WYDLER. Was somebody complaining about this requirement,
perhaps the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; there was no complaint. This was part of the
general review we undertook of interagency committees at the request
of the President. And this was one clearly anomalous provision,
where the Congress had by law required an agency head to consult a
committee esta~k fished by the President by Executive order.
Mr. WYDLEn. All right.
Now, I am most interested in this elimination of the Civilian Mili-
tary Liaison Committee in NASA.
Who are the members of that committee?
Mr.SEIDMAN. The Committee has had one meeting in July 1959,
and has never met since.
Mr. WYDLEIt. Well, after seeing some of the problems in that
agency, I think they might have met for some good purposes in the
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 Approved For Release 2003/10/15: nC5OAR 96Z 06850 0688-2 11
I am just curious-who are the members?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, the law provides that the Committee shall
consist of a Chairman who should be appointed by the President and
serve at the pleasure of the President, one or more representatives
from the Department of Defense, and one or more representatives
from each of the Departments of Army, Navy, and Air Force, to be
assigned by the Secretary of Defense to serve on the Committee.
And then representatives from NASA to be assigned by the Adminis-
trator, to serve on the Committee, equal in number to the number of
representatives assigned to serve on the Committee from Defense.
So you have an equal number from Defense and NASA.
We do have another coordinating mechanism here. And this is
one of the reasons that this Committee has never met.
The functions which were contemplated would be performed by
the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee are now performed by the
Aeronautics and Astronautics Coordinating Board, which is co-
chaired by the NASA Administrator and the Secretary of Defense.
Mr. WYDLER. In other words, they have raised the level of this
Board up in effect.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is right.
Mr. WYDLER. Because, I will tell you quite frankly, my experience
on the Science and Astronautics Committee has been that this area of
civil-military liaison is a very important one, and one where we could
use improvement. And therefore I would think this would be a little
inconsistent to eliminate that Committee if it was really performing
any function at all, or if it could perform some useful function.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, I think this illustrates the problem-I do not
think a statutory committee can achieve the kind of coordination
which is desired unless it is suited to the needs which are presented
in a particular area. And in this case it was found that other arrange-
ments would be more satisfactory and the Secretary of Defense and
the Administrator of NASA established the Aeronautics and Astro-
nautics Coordinating Board.
These committees which are provided for in statute--some of them
have never met.
We have one which is included in the plan, the Atomic Weapons
Awards Board-which has never met.
Mr. WYDLER. Would that be true of the National Housing Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The National Housing Council has not met since
1960.
Mr. WYDLE1. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HENDERSON. If these committees are set up by statute, isn't
there some requirement that they meet; and is this requirement of
law being violated?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Henderson, most of them do not have any
requirement in the law as to numbers of meetings. They merely
provide for a council and designate the membership and assign to it
some broad, general functions. There is usually not a requirement
that they have so many meetings per year or so. I do not think any
provision of law is being ignored here.
Mr. HENDERSON. What happens to the staffs of these committees
that are abolished?
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Mr. SEIDMAN. Most of these committees, as I said, have either met
very infrequently, or some not at all, and do not have any staff. The
staff services are provided from the regular staff of the agency.
The National Advisory Council does have a staff. However, they
are on the rolls of the Treasury Department-they are not on the
payroll of the Committee or Council itself. So their status will not
be changged-particularly in the case of the NAC.
I' r. HENDERSON. Thank you.
Chairman DAwsoN. Any further' uestions of Plan No. 4?
(Whereupon, at 10:30 a.m., the subcommittee proceeded to further
business on Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965.)
 APPENDIX
Washington, D.C., February 25,.1886.
Memorandum for the heads of Departments and Agencies:
I have just completed a review of 119 interdepartmental committees of the
Government that have been established by law or by Presidential directive.
Interdepartmental committees can often greatly facilitate coordination. But
extreme care must be exercised to make sure that a committee is the most efficient
way to accomplish a given task and to assure that committees are used effectively.
Improper use of committees can waste time, delay action, and result inunde-
sirable compromise. Each participant in committee deliberations should assess
the work of the group continuously to assure that it is directed toward valid and
useful purposes. Committees that are not clearly accomplishing such purposes
should be reformed or abolished.
I have asked the Budget Director to review the need for a number of committees.
Where appropriate, he will recommend steps to abolish or merge a number of them
or to have their functions performed in other ways. I want you to lend your full
cooperation to this undertaking.
Pursuant to Bureau of the Budget Circular A-63, you will soon be preparing a
report on interdepartmental committees for fiscal year 1965. I have asked for a
report on the results of this year's review. You should apply the highest standard
of usefulness and effectiveness in your review of committees chaired by your
agency, however established. I have been advised that 163 committees were
terminated in fiscal year 1964, while 203 were established. We can and must do
better than this.
On November 19, I said to the Cabinet that to provide for the new programs
of the Great Society we must take steps to reform or eliminate existing programs
where such action is indicated. This principle should guide you in your review
of interdepartmental committees.
LYNDON B. JOHNSON.
Circular No. A-63
EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT,
BUREAU OF TUE BUDGET,
Washington, D.C., March 9, 1964.
,To: The heads of Executive Departments and Establishments.
Subject: Management of interagency committees.
1. Purpose and scope.-This circular sets forth general guidelines and instruc-
tions for the establishment, use, and termination of interagency committees. To
the extent consistent with law, it applies to all departments and agencies of the
executive branch.
For purposes of this circular, the term "interagency committee" means any
formally constituted committee, board, commission, council, conference, panel,
task force, or other similar group, or any subcommittee or other subgroup thereof,
that is composed of officers or employees of more than one department or agency
of the Government and that is organized to meet from time to time for purposes
of formulatingg advice or recommendations, or for any other stated purpose.
Executive Order No. 11007 of February 26, 1962, prescribes certain regulations
regarding the use of public advisory committees. There are a few suchcom-
in ttees which have members from two or morn Federal agencies in addition to
the public members. Such committees are also included within the scope of this
circular which establishes additional and complementary) guidelines regarding
interagency committees.
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14 REORGl,NIZATION PLAN
2. General policies.-
(a) Responsibility for committees.-The responsibility for the management
of interagency committees (hereafter referred to as committees) rests with
the chairmen of such committees or, in cases where. a subordinate official
chairs a committee, with the head of his department or agency. The chair-
man should be held responsible for the conduct of all committee activities.
Dual or rotating chairmanships may have the effect of confusing or dividing
responsibility for the committee's work and should generally be avoided.
The chairman should direct the administrative arrangements for the com-
mittee including th.r calling of meetings and preparation of agenda and
reports. Secretariat services should generally be provided in full by the
chairing agency.
(b) Agency contributions.-Contributions by member agencies (other than
the chairing agency) to the support of committees should be limited to cases
where the subjects in be considered are within the scope of authority and
responsibility of several agencies and no single agency has paramount responsi-
bility. If the activities of the committee meet this test and if it is. not
practicable for the ghairing agency to provide for the full support of the
committee, consideration should be given to the contribution of the time of
agency staff and other participation in kind before transfers of funds are
proposed.
Contributions by members which take the form of payments of funds
should be used only in those cases where the need is so compelling or urgent
that the committee must he established immediately and no practicable
alternative can be fined to meet its immediate financial needs. Financing
of the activities of the committee through a single agency, if feasible, should
be recommended to the Bureau of the Budget for consideration in connection
with the next budget submission of the chairing agency.
(c) Approval of exceptions-There may be circumstances in which the
special needs of a committee: require a dual or rotating chairmanship or in
which contributions of funds by member agencies are required. In such
cases, the prior approval of the Director of the Bureau of the Budget should
be obtained. At that time, consideration will also be given to any special
funding and administrative support arrangements required by committees
with dual or rotating chairmanships. In the case of existing committees
which have dual or rotating chairmen or are financed by transfers of funds
from several agencies, the approval of the Director of the Bureau of the
Budget should be obtained if such arrangements arc to be continued when
the committees are extended beyond 2 years under the provisions of section
2(g) of this circular.
(d) Functions of committees.-Committees are established primarily for
the purpose of assuring necessary interagency consideration or coordination
of executive branch programs or problems. Committees should be used for
such functions as advising, investigating, making reports or recommendations,
exchanging views, etc. Responsibility for performance of operating or
executive functions, such as making determinations or administering pro-
grams, should not be assigned to committees. Thee committee's "terms of
reference" should Le be defined as, accurately as possible; that is, the scope
and nature of the committee's assignment, the official to whom the committee
will report, and what it is that the, committee is expected to do, e.g., advise,
investigate, report, recommend, etc.
(e) Method of establishment.-Committees shouldbe established insofar,
as possible, by moans which permit maximum flexibility in determining the
membership, functions, and duration of the group. Therefore, agencies
should not propose the establishment of committees by legislation unless
there is a clear need to do so. Further, proposals to establish committees
by Executive order should be limited generally to cases where specific dole-
gations of statutory authority or formal assignments of responsibility are
being made to a number of agencies and a coordinating committee is to
he utilized. Committees dealing with general problems of interagency
coordination or cooperation, which can be set up appropriately under exist-
ing authority, should be established by less formal documents such as mem-
oranda of agreement, exchange of letters, etc. If they are to be standing
committees, notice of their establishment or extension (under section 2(g)
of this circular) shall be published in the Federal Register in order to facilitate
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Ila e in n the the national interest.
b
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REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
(f) Committee membership.-In order to facilitate the work of committees,
the membership should be limited to those agencies haveng a substantial
interest in all major facets of the subjects to be dealt with. Agencies having
a limited interest in a committee's work should be invited to participate
when matters concerning their area of interest are to be considered. Informal
reports should be made to interested but nonparticipating agencies, as neces-
sar
g) Duration of committees.-Standing committees should be established
only when the subject matter clearly indicates that benefit will accrue from
recurrent group consideration or coordination. Temporary committees or
ad hoc handling and disposition should be used for transitory matters.
Standing committees should be terminated as soon as practicable and
ordinarily not later than the end of the second fiscal year after that in which
they were established. If the chairing agency determines in writing that
the continuation of the committee beyond 2 years is necessary, its life may
be extended for one or more additional 2-year periods or for a shorter time.
In the case of committees established by law, Executive order, or pursuant
to Presidential direction, the head of the chairing agency shall advise the
Director of the Bureau of the Budget if he believes that a committee should
be extended beyond 2 years. The Director will make such recommendations
to the President as may be appropriate regarding the amendment of laws,
Executive orders, or Presidential directives dealing with such committees.
For the purpose of this circular, the date of formation of a committee shall
be deemed to be June 30 of the fiscal year in which the committee was
established. In the case of committees established prior to July 1, 1962,
the date of formation shall be deemed to be Juno 30, 1962. (Extensions of
committees also covered by Executive Order 11007 will be handled in con-
formity with the provisions of that order and will be reported on under this
circular for the fiscal year in which the extension occurs.)
3. Committee management liaison.-The head of each agency responsible for the
management of committees shall designate an officer to assist him in the discharge
of his responsibilities under this circular. The name, title, office and telephone
number of this officer should be transmitted to the Bureau of the Budget by
May 31, 1964. Changes in the designation of such officers should be reported
promptly.
4. Committee management program.-The head of each agency will issue such
internal agency orders as are necessary to carry out the policies under this circular.
As a minimum; such issuances should provide for maintenance of a file containing
the information listed in the attachment on each committee and subcommittee
chaired by the agency.
5. Nomenclature.-In order to achieve uniformity within the executive branch,
designation of typos of committee established hereafter should be in accordance
with the following guidelines:
(a) The terms "commission," "council," or "board" may be confused with
independent agencies of the executive branch and should be reserved for
committees established by legislation.
(b) All interagency groups of a continuing nature (standing committees)
established by other means should be called "committees" and their sub-
ordinate units should be called "subcommittees."
(c) All ad hoc groups should have titles giving a clear indication of their
temporary status. Terms such as "conference," "task force," "team,"
`party," `group," "panel," etc., can be used to denote such groups.
Where feasible, committees already in existence should have their titles
changed (at the time of their extension or otherwise) in order to bring them
into conformity with the preceding guidelines.
6. Reports.-Each agency shall submit a report on the committees and sub-
committees which it chairs to the Bureau of the Budget by April 30 of each year,
covering the current fiscal year. The report shall include the following in-
formation:
(a) The names of committees established by legislation, Executive order,
or at the direction of the President which are in existence at the time of the
report and, when required under the provisions of section 2(y) of this cir-
cular, recommendations regarding the continuation of such committees.
(b) The names of committees which are supported by interagency contri-
bution of funds or which have dual or rotating chairmanships and, when
required under the provisions of section 2(c) of this circular, proposals re-
garding the continuation of such arrangements.
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16 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
(c) Notice of the intended continuation of committees beyond 2 years
under the provisions of section 2(g) of this circular, Such reports shall con-
tain an explanation of the accomplishments of the committee and the reasons
for its continuation.
(d) The number of all other committees and subcommittees Classified as
standing or ad hoc, :and, for each category, the number created, the number
terminated, and the number in existence at the beginning and end of the
fiscal year.
(The first report and?r this circular should be submitted by May 31, 1064.
In the case of committees whose date of formation is deemed to be dune 30, 1962,
under the provisions of section 2 above, the first report shall include the informa-
tion required in connection with the continuation of such committees.)
Inquiries to the Bureau of the Budget about this circular should be addressed
to the Office of Management and Organization (code 128, extension 21764).
I(ERMIT GORDON, Director.
lAttaohmmtt --pircular No. A-631
DATA To BE MAINTAINED IN AGENCY COMMITTEE MANAGEMENT FILES
1. Name of each committee or subcgmmittee chaired by the agency.
2. The means and date of its establishment and the: name and title of the
official who established the committee.
3. The departments and agencies which are members of the committee or
subcommittee and thos3 agencies which send observers. Also, the names and
titles of the chairman and other members serving on rho committee.
4. A list of all subcommittees (and their chairmen) for each parent committee.
5. The "terms of reference" of the committee or subcommittee (as described in
section 2(d)).
6. The estimated duration of the committee or subcommittee.
7. A description of the financing arrangements; a statement of the funding
source or sources; a I?;ting of agency contributions, where authorized; and a
statement of the authority through which the committee is given financial support,
S. An estimate of all other costs of the committee, including agency staff time
(other than secretariat; devoted to committee work, except in cases where the
staff time represents less than one-fourth of a mail-year.
9. The secretariat and staff, including the size and organizational location or
an estimate of the man-hours required for performing secretariat services, and an
estimate of the costs involved in the performance of secretariat functions.
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 Approved For ReleaseR9AaJf~O/V 5 NY ATIUN00a46~2QQ0~QQ~200?01 jF 1965
V 1CliA(IINGTEERAGUEvNCjYj,COMMITTEES)
IJ
BEFORE A
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COM31I TTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Government Operations
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
51-207 WASHINGTON : 1065
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HEARING
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Illinois, Chairman
CHET HOLIFIELD, California CLARENCE J. BROWN, Ohio
JACK BROOKS, Texas FLORENCE P. DWYER, New Jersey
L. II. FOUNTAIN, North Carolina ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan
PORTER HARDY, In., VhTlnla !i OGDEN It. REID; New York
JOHN A. BLATNIK, Minnesota FRANK J. HORTON, Now York
ROBERT E. JONES, Alabama DELBERT L. LATTA, Ohio
EDWARD A. GARMATZ, Maryland DONALD RUMSPELD, Illinois
JOHN E. MOSS, Callfomfa WILLIAM Ti. DICKINSON, Alabama
DANTE B. FASOELL, Flo Ida JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
HENRY S. REUSS, Wisconsin HOWARD 11. CALLAWAY, Georgia
JOIIN S. MONAGAN, Consectiont JOHN W. WYDLER, New York
TORBERT H. MACDONA.LD, Massachusettsi
J. EDWARD ROUSH, Indiana ',.
WILLIAM S. MOORHEAD, Pmmsylvanla
CORNELIUS E. GALLAGRER, New Jersey
WILLIAM J. RANDALL, Missouri
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHAL, New York
JIM WRIGHT, Texas
FERNAND J. ST GERM/,IN, Rhode Island
DAVID S. KING, Utah
JOHN G. DOW, New York
HENRY IIELSTOSKI, NeR Jersey
CIIRISTrXE RAY DAVIS, Staff Director
JAMES A. LANIOAN, General Counsel
MILES R. ROMNEY, Associate General Counsel
Y. P. CARLSQN, Minority Counsel
PAYMOND T. COLLINS, Minority Profeseionai Staff
EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Bllnois, Chairman
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHIAL, New York
CHET HOLIFIELD, Calbbrnla
HENRY S. REUSS, Wisconsin
EDWARD A. GARMAT2, Maryland
CORNELIUS E. GALLAGHER, New Jersey
CLARENCE J. BROWN, Ohio
JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
JOHN W. WYDLER, New York
ELMER W. ENDESSON, Counsel
LOUIS I. FREED,'.Ineeetigator
VERONICA B. JOHNSON, Clerk
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 Message from the President of the United States, transmitting Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 4 of 1965, relative to reorganizations of various com-
Page
mittees and other similar bodies___________________________________
1
Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965-----------------------------------
3
Statement of Harold Seidman, Assistant Director for Management and
Organization, Bureau of the Budget; accompanied by Fred Levi,
Assistant Chief__________________________________________________
4
Information submitted for the record by Harold Seidman, Assistant
Director for Management and Organization, Bureau of the Budget:
Excerpt from message of the President in transmitting Reorganization
Plan No.4 of 1965-------------------------------------------
5
List of additional executive branch interagency committees which
might have boon included in Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965_-_
7
APPENDIX
Memorandum from Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson, President of the United
States, for the heads of departments and agencies, February 25, 1965---
13
Memorandum from Kermit Gordon, Director, Bureau of the Budget, to the
heads of executive departments and establishments, March 2, 1964----
13
Attachment-Data to be maintained in agency committee manage-
ment files ---------------------------------------------------
16
 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
(Interagency Committees)
WEDNESDAY, JULY 14, 1905
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE
REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2203,
Rayburn Office Building, Hon. William L. Dawson (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives William L. Dawson, Henry S. Reuss,
John N. Erlenborn, and John W. Wydler.
Also present: Elmer W. Henderson, subcommittee counsel; James
A. Lanigan, general counsel Committee on Government Operations;
and J. P. Carlson, minority counsel.
(Message from the President transmitting Reorganization Plan No.
4 of 1965 follows:)
MESSAGE FROM TEE PRESIDENT Or THE UNITED STATES, TRANSMITTING REORGA-
NIZATION PLAN No. 4 or 1965, RELATIVE TO REORGANIZATIONS Or VARIOUS
COMMITTEES AND OTHER SIMILAR BODIES
To the Congress of the United States:
I transmit herewith Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965, prepared in accordance
with the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended, and providing for reorgani-
zations of various committees and other similar bodies.
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Government's adaptability, on Its capacity for fast flexible response to
changing needs imposed by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount new challenges.
As government grows more complex and programs increasingly cut across
traditional agency lines, we must exercise special care to prevent the continuance
of obsolete interagency committees and other coordinating devices which waste
time and delay action and the undue proliferation of new committees. Inter-
agency committees are a valuable and often indispensable means of facilitating
coordination, but we should be sure that a committee is the most efficient way to
accomplish a given task and that it is structured to meet current needs effectively.
At my direction, guidelines for the management of interagency committees have
been established. I have recently asked the heads of departments and agencies
to give their personal attention to a complete review of all the interagency com-
mittoees in which their agencies participate to determine which ones might be
eliminated, consolidated or otherwise reorganized. We will take appropriate
action to obtain essential improvements in the organization and use of those
committees which have been established by the executive branch.
The reorganizations accomplished by the reorganization plan transmitted here-
with will enable us to take similar action with respect to a number of committees
which have been established by statute. In many instances the statutory pro-
visions creating these committees are very specific as to membership and describe
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2 REORG4NIZATION P1AN NO. 4 OF 1065
in detail the functions to be performed.; These provisions are rarely sufficiently
flexible to permit the membership or role of the committees to be accommodated
to changing circumstances or to permit their termination when they have outlived
their usefulness,
The accompanying reorganization plan will abolish nine statutory committees.
In each ease the responsibility for providing suitable arrangements to assure
effective consultation and coordination is placed in it specific official. Wherever
the continuing need for and usefulness of a committee has been demonstrated,
I would anticipate the establishment of a successor committee along the general
lines of the body now provided by law. Certainly prompt action will be taken to
create successor committees to such bodies as the Board: of Foreign Service and
the National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems.
But we will have the flexibility promptly to make such changes in functions and
membership as might be required to eliminate overlapping and duplication and
to adjust to the development of new programs and shifts in executive branch
respponsibilities.
A number of the committees affected by the reorganisation plan are advisory
to the President or have functions which are closely related to responsibilities
already vested in the President, The functions of those committees will be trans-
ferred to the President by the reorganization plan. The functions of the others
will be transferred to the appropriate individual agency heads.
The management and control of interagency committees have been a matter
of growing concern to both the executive branch and the Congress. The taking
effect of the reorganization plan will contribute signifleantly to better manage-
ment of interagency committees and will assist efforts to simplify and modernize
coordinating arrangements within the executive branch.
Executive Order No. 10940 of May 11, 1961., provides for the President's
Committee on Juvenile Deliquency and Youth Crime. The Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare is required to consult with that committee on matters of
general. polic and procedure arising in the administration of the Juvenile Dclin-
quency and Youth Ofimises Control Act of 1961 and to consider certain recom-
mendations of that committee (42 U.S.C. 2546(b)). To require the Secretary
by law to consult with a committee established by Executive order is clearly
anomalous. The plan abolishes the relevant functions of the Secretary with
respect to consulting and considerin the recommendations of the President's
Committee. The reo' ganization platl does not otherwise affect the Committee;
it has no effect upon Executive Order No. 10940. The statutory authority for
the exercise of the functions to be abolished by section 13(b) of the reorganization
plan is contained in se.etion 7(b) of the Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses
Control Act of 1961 (75 Stat. 574).
After investigation I have found and hereby declare that each reorganization
included in Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965 is necessary to accomplish one or
more of the purposes set forth in section 2(a) of the Reorganization Act of 1949,
as amended,
Although the rcorf;anizations provided for in the reorganization plan will not
of themselves result in immediate savings, the improvement achieved in adminis-
tration will in the future allow the performance of the gffeeted functions at lower
costs and in a more timely manner than at present. It is however, impracticable
to specify or itemize at this time the reductions of expenditures which it is prob-
able will be brought about by the taking effect of the reorganizations included
in the reorganization plan.
I recommend that the Congress allow the accompagying reorganization plan to
become effective.
LYNDON B. JOHNSON.
THE WnrmN House, May 27, 1966.
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 Approved For Release 2003/10/1 MM6 Wgob 2 bo dEided1-2 3
REORGANIZATION PLAN No. 4 or 1965
Prepared b the President and transmitted to the Senate and the House of Representatives in Congress
assembled, May 27, 1965, pursuant to the provisions of the Roorganization Act of 1949 (63 Stat. 203), as
amended
PART I
SECTION 1. Transfer of functions. All functions of each of the following-named
bodies, together with all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of each
thereof, are hereby transferred to the President of the United States;
(a) The National Housing Council, provided for in section 6 of Reorganiza-
tion Plan No. 3 of 1947 (61 Stat. 955) as affected by (i) section 502(a) of the
Housing Act of 1948 (62 Stat. 1283; 12 U.S.C. 1701e), (ii) section 603 of the
Housing Act of 1949 (63 Stat. 440; 12 U.S.C. 1701i), and by (iii) section 615 of
the Defense Housing and Community Facilities and Services Act of 1951 (65
Stat. 317; 12 U.S.C. 1701i-1).
(b) The National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial
Problems, provided for in section 4 of the Bretton Woods Agreements Act (59
Star. 512), as amended (22 U.S.C. 286b).
(c) The Board of the Foreign Service,, provided for in section 211 of the Foreign
Service Act of 1946 (60 Stat. 1001; 22 U.S.C. 826).
(d) The Board of Examiners for the Foreign Service, provided for in section
212 of the Foreign Service Act of 1946 (22 U.S.C. 827).
(e) The Civilian-Military Liaison Committee, provided for in section 204 of
the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (72 Stat. 431), as amended
(42 U.S.C. 2474).
Sec. 2. Performance of transferred functions. The President may from time to
time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing the perform-
ance of the functions transferred by the provisions of section 1 of this reorgani-
zation.plan by any other officers of the executive branch of the Government or
by any agencies or employees of that branch.
See. 3. Abolition of bodies. (a) Each of the bodies referred to in paragraphs
(a) to (e), inclusive, of section 1 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
(b) The President shall make or cause to be made such provisions as may be
necessary with respect to the winding up of any outstanding affairs of the bodies
abolished by the provisions of section 3 of this reorganization plan.
PART If Section 11. Transfer of functions. (a) There are hereby transferred to the
Chairman of the United States Civil Service Commission all functions of the
Advisory Council on Group Insurance, provided for in section 12(a) of the Federal
Employees' Group Life Insurance Act of 1954 (68 Star. 742; 5 U.S.C. 2101(a)).
(b) There are hereby transferred to the Administrator of the Small Business
Administration all functions of the Loan Policy Board of the Small Business
Administration, provided for in section 4(d) of the Small Business Act (72 Stat.
385; 15 U.S.C. 633(d)).
(c) There are hereby transferred to the Secretary of the Interior all functions
of the advisory board provided for in section 2(a) of the Act of August 20, 1937
(50 Stat. 732), as amended (16 U.S.C. 832a(a)), commonly referred to as the
Bonneville Power Advisory Board.
(d) There are hereby transferred to the Attorney General all functions of the
Awards Board provided for in section 3 of the Atomic Weapons Rewards Act of
1955 (69 Stat. 365; 50 U.S.C. 47b).
(e) The transfers made by subsections (a) to (d), inclusive, of this section shall
be deemed to include all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of the
respective transferor bodies referred to in those subsections.
Sec. 12. Performance of transferred functions. Each offloer to whom functions
are transferred by the provisions of section 11 of this reorganization plan may
from time to time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing
the performance of the functions so transferred to him by his subordinate offiers,
employees, or agencies.
Soo. 13. Abolitions. (a) Each of the bodies the functions of which are trans-
ferred by the provisions of section 11 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
Each officer to whom functions ere transferred by those provisions shall make such
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provisions as may be necessary with respect to the winding up of any outstanding
affairs of the body or bodies the functions of which are so transferred to him.
(b) The functions vested in the Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare
by the provisions of section 7(b) of the Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses
Control Act of 1961 75 Stat. 574 (42 V.S.C. 2546(b)) are hereby abolished.
Chairman DAwsov. The subcommittee will come to order.
These hearings have been called, to consider two'reotganization plans
transmitted to the Congress on May 27 by President Lyndon B.
Johnson.
Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965 transfers the functions of a num-
ber of interagency committees to the President or, in some cases, to
the heads of certain departments and agencies. The committees are
then abolished. It is the opinion of the President that these com-
mittees have become obsolete and no longer serve the purpose intended
for them.
Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965 involves only the National
Science Foundation. A number of divisional committees within that
agency are abolished and the Director of the Foundation is given the
authority to delegate his functions to other officers or employees
within the Foundation.
Mr. Harold Seidman, Assistant Director of the Bureau of the
Budget, will testify on both plans. At the conclusion of his remarks
on Plan No. 4, he will be available for interrogation by the subcom-
mittee on that plan.
Mr. Seidman and Dr. Leland J Haworth Director of the National
Science Foundation, will then testify on Plan No. 5 and, of course,
both will be available for interrogation on that plan.
Our first witness will be Mr. Seidman.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I am always glad to be here, Mr. Chairman.
I am accompanied, again, by Mr. Fred Levi, Assistant Chief of the
Office of Management and Organization.
Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement. With your permis-
sion, I will proceed.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD SEIDMAN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR
MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATION, BUREAU OF THE BUDGET;
ACCOMPANIED BY FRED LEVI, ASSISTANT CHIEF
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee,
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before your subcommittee
in support of Reorganization Plans Nos. 4 and 5 of 1956. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 4 will abolish nine statutory interagency committees
and eliminate a statutory requirement now applicable to one com-
mittee established by Executive order. In each case all functions
of the abolished cosmittee are transferred, as may be appropriate,
either to the Presider t or a specifically designated official. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 5 will abolish all functions of the divisional commit-
tees provided for by section S ofthe National Science Foundation
Act and, in addition, will authorize certain delegations by the Director
of the National Science Foundation. The two plans were transmitted
by the President to the Congress on May 27, 1965, pursuant to the
provisions of the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended.
The President has emphasized that there is a continuing need to
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provide the most effective administration of current and future
programs. As he stated in transmitting Reorganization Plan No. 4:
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Govormnont's adaptability, on its capacity for fast, flexible response to
changing needs imposed by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount new challenges.
The need for flexibility and adaptability is particularly critical in the
area of interagency mechanisms for coordinating Federal programs
and providing advice to the President and key officials.
The complexity of modern government often requires that responsi-
bility for related or complementary activities be placed in different
department's and agencies of the executive branch. These programs
must be coordinated in an effort to obtain the best possible utilization
of the Government's resources. One of the chief mechanisms for
obtaining coordination is the interagency committee.
Committees presently deal with a wide variety of programs and
subjects ranging from national security policy to the coordination of
the use of costly automatic data processing equipment. However,
they are effective only when they are properly utilized. Otherwise,
as the President has said, they waste time, delay action and result
in undesirable compromise. Committees must constantly be re-
viewed to assure that they meet current requirements and are directed
toward useful and productive goals.
While it is possible for the President and the agency heads to adjus t
the organization and functions of committees which are established
by Executive action, they do not have the authority to reorganize and
modernize certain committees created in statute. As a result, as
time goes on, those committees often cannot be adapted to meet
changes in law, reassignments of responsibilities within the executive
branch and the development of now programs. The President has
noted that:
In many instances the statutory provisions creating these committees are very
specific as to membership and describe in detail the functions to be performed.
These provisions are rarely sufficiently flexible to permit the membership or role
of the committees to be accommodated to changing circumstances or to permit
their termination when they have outlived their usefulness.
The President has transmitted Reorganization Plan No. 4 to pro-
vide necessary flexibility in carrying out certain coordinating and
advisory functions now vested in steel fic statutory committees. The
plan would abolish the NationaHousing Council, the National
Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems,
the Board of the Foreign Service, the Board of Examiners of the
Foreign Service and the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee estab-
lished in the National Aeronautics and Space Act. Since these
groups carry out functions which may be of direct Presidential con-
cern, the plan provides for the transfer of their functions to the
President and gives him the authority to provide for their performance.
It should be noted that the President has said:
Wherever the continuing need for and usefulness of a committee has been
demonstrated, I would anticipate the establishment of a successor committee
along o nthe. general nes of
be taken to eat esuccessor co nmittees to ysulow. ch bodies t as the prompt
Board
acti
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of Foreign Service ar d the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems.
The reorganization plan would also abolish the Advisory Council
on Group Insurance, the Loan Policy Board'; of the Small Business
Administration, the Bonneville Power Advisory Board and the
Atomic Weapons Awards Board. Those groups perform functions
primarily of concern to certain agency heads, and their functions would
be transferred to those agency heads who would provide for their
performance in an appropriate manner. Finally, the plan would
abolish the statutory requirement that the Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare consult with the President's Committee on
Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Crime on matters of general policy
and procedures arising in the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency and Youth Offenses Control Act of 1961 and consider recom-
mendations of thit Committee. The President's Committee was
established by Executive Order No. 10940, May 11, 1961.
As a result of the taking effect of the reorganization plan, the
President and the heads of the agencies involved will have the neces-
sary authority and flexibility to carry out, in a manner appropriate to
meet current needs, the coordinating and advisory functions of groups
being abolished. The plan will assure that timely and efficient
mechanisms can he utilized. Accordingly, I recommend that Re-
organization Plan No. 4 of 1965 be allowed to become effective.
I would also like to point out that the reorganization plan represents
only a part of the administration's programto control and manage
the approximately 550 interagency committees that now exist.
The guidelines for that program are contained in the Bureau of the
Budget Circular No. A-63, entitled "Management of Interagency
Committees." Tha circular places the principal responsibility for
committee management on agency heads, requires periodic reviews
and reports, and a positive determination by the agency head before
any committee can continue for longer than 2 years. Under the cir-
cular, the Bureau also retains the authority to approve the use of
curtain devices such as dual or rotating chairmanships and the fi-
nancing of committees by agency contributions.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Reuss.
Mr. REUSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Seidman, why does the plan affect these 9 out of the total of
550 interagency committees?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Reuss, most of the 550 were established by
Executive action, so that the President can take the necessary meas-
ures to assure modifications to meet current requirements. In other
words, they have either been established by Executive order of the
President or by administrative action of a department head.
Mr. REuss. Are these the only nine interagency committees
established by statute?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; they are not.
Mr. REuss. How many are there?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I oink there are approximately, 16 such committees.
Mr. REuss. What about the other seven?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Certain of the other committees which we had
excluded from consideration at this time-I think some are question-
able as to whether J ~~~ &3~ t cp function in
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in them-such as the Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corpora-
tion, which technically is an interagency committee. It includes
representatives from a number of agencies. But on the other hand,
it acts as a Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corporation. We
excluded that type of body from consideration.
Mr. Reuss. Would you file at this point in the record, Mr. Seidman,
a listing of the seven statutory interagency committees or near com-
mittees not included in this reorganization order, together with some
explanation of why they are not included? I am sure there is a good
explanation in each case.
(The listing requested follows:)
List OP ADDITIONAL EXECUTIVE BRANCH INTERAGENCY COMMITrEns WniCn
MIGHT RAVE BERN INCLUDED IN RNOROANIZATION PLAN No. 4 or 1365
There are approximately 52 committees established in statute which include
agencies of the executive branch. The, largest number of these committees are
public advisory groups with one or two agencies included among the members.
Several are composed of members from both the legislative and executive branches.
These two typos of committees fall outside the scope of this reorganization plan.
Also excluded from this review are interagency groups which have the status of
agencies (e.g. the National Security Council), have quasi-judicial or operating
functions (e.g. Foreign Trade Zones Board) or act as Boards of Directors for
Federal educational, scientific, or cultural activities (e.g. Board of Trustees of the
John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts). The following is a list of the
remaining seven executive branch interagency committees which might have, been
included in the reorganization plan along with the reasons they were excluded.
Name Reason the committee waa not included in the Plan
1. Board of Geographic Names -------- Additional members may be added from
time to time.
2. Adjustment Assistance Advisory President has authority to designate
Board. additional members.
3. Area Redevelopment Advisory The Public Works and Redevelopment
Policy Board. Act of 1965 permits the President to
name all members.
4. Economic Opportunity Council---- Permits the President to add members
from time to time.
6. Committee for Statistical Annota- No vice specification oof membership or do-
tion of Tariff Schedules.
6. Trade Expansion Act Advisory President has full authority to name the
Committee. . members.
7. Development Loan Committee--_- President has authority to establish
membership.
Mr. REuss. A particularly august interagency committee which
you are abolishing under this Reorganization Plan. No. 4-though the
President notes that he will reconstitute it is the National Advisory
Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems, which
was set up under the Bretton Woods legislation in 1944, I believe.
I have had some problems with it in the past because it developed
symptoms of bureaucratic sluggishness. I know that on one occa-
sion Congress was sent a document bearing the imprimatur of the
National Advisory Council, but when I inquired why i't had not boon
signed by the five members I fourid out tlicy had not met or really
done anything about it-that somebody in the backroom had pre-
pared their recommendation.
How will this reorganization plan change the National Advisory
Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I can point to some of the problems, Mr. Reuss,
which have resulted from the statutory status of the National Ad-
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We are now considering within the executive branch-the Treasury
Department has submitted it draft of a proposed Executive order
which would reestablish a new- -
Mr. REUSS. Would the same members--
Mr. SEIDMAN. They are proposing the same members. One of the
problems here is that at the little of the creation of this council, the
only significant foreign lending program that we had in the Federal
Government was basically the Export-Import Bank. A major con-
cern at the time it was established was really to determine the U.S.
Government policy in the International Bank and Fund, and to pro-
vide a vehicle for instructing our delegates to the Bank and Fund, and
to coordinate their activities with the Export-Import Bank.
Of course, since that time we'have developed major international
financial programs which are carried out through the Agency for
International Development and through the Public Law 480 program
of the Department of Agriculture.
Now, the membership of the NAC remains the same. It includes
the State Department, Commerce, the Chairman of the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve System, find the President of the
Export-Import Bank.
It is it good question, as to whether the membership ought to be
revised in the light of current programs we are carrying out within
the Federal Govern[iient-particularly should the Secretary of Agri-
culture be it member-this is certainly one of the questions which
ought to be considered.
Mr. REUSS. Under this reorganization plan, it could be abolished
and not reconstituted at all, could it not?
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is right. The President may well determine
under certain circumstances that other arrangmnents would be more
effective in doing the job that needs to be done.
Mr. REUSS. And as you have indicated, it can equally be recon-
stituted, but with certain present members left off, and others added.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is correct., I do not know what the decision
will be. For example, I know from tine to time the Secretary of
Labor has indicated that it might well be appropriate to have the
Department of Labor representedjon the NAC.
As programs change, we have not wanted to go up for an aanend-
mmment, merely to change the membership on one of these committees.
It is time consuming.
Mr. REUSS. I have had frequent opportunities to deal with the
National Advisory Council, and I may say that I am not going
to weep at its funeral hore. I see no particular reason why it should
be retained as a statutory council. Furthermore, T am not at all sure,
if I may give some gratuitous advice, that it should be formally re-
constituted once and for all. It is set up to give advice on the Inter-
national Monetary Fund and the World Bank-an agency which now
includes several subsidiaries which did not exist back t}men. And I
should think that quite different, people might be required to give
advice on, let us say, the IDA aspect of the World Bank, than would
be required to give advice, let us say, on international monetary
matters. Certainly the Secretary of the Treasury ought to give
advice on international monotary matters. But I should think that,
equally, the Director of the AID should be consulted on what becomes
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Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, that is certainly a typo of issue that will be
given very careful consideration.
Mr. WYDLER. Would the gentleman yield to me at this point?
How many times in the last year did the National Advisory Council
meet?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The staff-
Mr. WYDLER. I am talking about the full Council.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The full Council has not met very frequently, and
during the period when Mr. Humphrey was Secretary of the Treasury
under the Eisenhower administration, it did not moet at all.
Mr. REuss. The gentleman from New York has put his finger on
one of the difficulties. Here you have the Secretary of State and the
Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Commerce, plus other
important officials on this Council. Yet, under the statute, they are
required to give advice on the most picayune little matters concerning
the International Monetary Fund. On at least one occasion I was
distressed to find that this great organism sppoke, yet the Secretaries
of State, Treasury, and so on had not really been there, had not met.
And while they later hastily got together and signed the document, it
was not a very good way of giving advice.
Mr. WYDnEn. They ratified it.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I might point out that these committees often do
work informally where they involve Cabinet-level people.
In the case of the NAC there is a very active staff for the committee,
and problems are considered at the staff level in weekly meetings.
This includes not only the staff of the NAC, but of the various agencies.
Very often the principals will talk to each other on the terephone
about some of the issues which are before the Council, rather than
have a formal meeting. But the bulk of the work certainly is done
at the staff level.
Mr. REuss. Well, I conclude by saying that in general I think this
is a useful reorganization plan. But I would hope that the President
might review his determination as expressed in your statement that
"Prompt action will be taken to create successor committees to such
bodies as the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems. I am not really sure that formal committee
constitution is what is needed to get this kind of advice, and I would
hate to see that done under an Executive order which merely repeats
the stratification that Congress achieved when it put this into the law.
Mr. SEIDMAN. We are now soliciting the views of the other agencies
in the executive branch on the draft proposed by Treasury, and I am
sure we will have suggestions coming from the Department of State
and the Agency for International Development and the Department
of Agriculture and others as to the course of action which ought to
be taken.
I do feel strongly we do need in this particular area a more formal
its function should be or mechanism.
what
its mmbership.ItBut I think there is
a need.
Mr. REuss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Erlonborn.
Mr. ERLENDORN. I have no questions.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Wydlor?
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I would like you to explain the final part of this plan, which is the
reason why we are not going to have the Secretary of Health, Educa-
tion, and Welfare consult with the President's Committee any longer.
Why is that?
Mr. SEIDMAN. This is a very curious provision, in the law. The
President's Committee was set up' by Executive order. It was not
set up in law. And t aon by statute the Secretary of Health, Educa-
tion, and Welfare was required to': consult with a committee which
was created by the President by Executive order. This is a rather
anomalous provision. If the President chose to abolish this commit-
tee, which he has full authority to do, then there would be a question
as to how the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare could
carry out this function assigned to him by law.
Mr. WYDLER. Is this actually creating a real problem, or is this just
something to obviate a problem that might arise, or what?
Mr. SEIDMAN. It obviates a problem that might arise, because it
would create difficulties at such time as the President might determine
that the President's Committee had outlived its usefulness, and lie
would want to abolish it. But he would in effect by the existence of
this statutory provision-in effect, be debarred from abolishing the
Committee, unless he wanted to raise questions with respect to how
the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare administered this act.
This relates to the general program which the President has in-
structed us to carry out within the executive branch. In effect the
President has said that he wants each interagency committee reviewed
each 2 years, and if there isn't an affirmative determination by the
responsible official that it needs to be continued, its life ends at the
end of 2 years.
The President believes- and I think we have made available to the
committee staff a copy of the President's statement on the committee
problem-that while the Interagency Committee is a highly useful
and often an indispensable device, when they outlive their usefulness,
they often become serious obstacles to the most efficient performance
of functions within the executive branch of the Government.
The Jackson subcommittee, in their study of national policy ma-
chinery, in the Senate, went into this at great length-that the inter-
agency committees very often slow down the process of Government
considerably without contributing anything positive.
Mr. WYDLER. Was somebody complaining about this requirement,
perhaps the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; there was no complaint. This was part of the
general review we undertook of interagency committees at the request
of the President. And this was one clearly anomalous provision,
where the Conmress had by law required an agency head to consult a
committee estat'bliehed by the President by Executive order.
Mr. WYDLEn. All right.
Now, I am most interested in this eliminationof the Civilian Mili-
tary Liaison Committee in NASA.
Who are the members of that committee?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Tl.e Committee has had one meeting in July 1959,
and has never met since.
Mr. WYDLER. Well, after seeing some of the problems in that
agency, I think they might have met for some good purposes in the
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 Approved For Release 2003/10/15 I !FAVWoA4 2QQg~-2 11
I am just curious-who are the members?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, the law provides that the Committee shall
consist of a Chairman who should be appointed by the President and
serve at the pleasure of the President, one or more representatives
from the Department of Defense, and one or more representatives
from each of the Departments of Army, Navy, and Air Force, to be
assigned by the Secretary of Defense to serve on the Committee.
And then representatives from NASA to be assigned by the Adminis-
trator, to serve on the Committee, equal in number to the number of
representatives assigned to serve on the Committee from Defense.
So you have an equal number from Defense and NASA.
We do have another coordinating mechanism here. And this is
one of the reasons that this Committee has never mot.
The functions which were contemplated would be performed by
the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee are now performed by the
Aeronautics and Astronautics Coordinating Board, which is co-
chaired by the NASA Administrator and the Secretary of Defense.
Mr. WYDLEn. In other words, they have raised the level of this
Board up in effect.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is right.
Mr. WYDLER. Because, I will tell you quite frankly, my experience
on the Science and Astronautics Committee has been that this area of
civil-military liaison is a very important one, and one where we could
use improvement. And therefore I would think this would be a little
inconsistent to eliminate that Committee if it was really performing
any function at all, or if it could perform some useful function.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, I think this illustrates the problem-I do not
think a statutory committee can achieve the kind of coordination
which is desired unless it is suited to the needs which are presented
in a particular area. And in this case it was found that other arrange-
ments would be more satisfactory and the Secretary of Defense and
the Administrator of NASA established the Aeronautics and Astro-
nautics Coordinating Board.
These committees which are provided for in statute-some of them
have never met.
We have one which is included in the plan, the Atomic Weapons
Awards Board-which has never met.
Mr. WYDLEn, Would that be true of the National Housing Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The National Housing Council has not met since
1960.
Mr. WYDLn. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HENDERSON. If these committees are set up by statute, isn't
there some requirement that they meet; and is this requirement of
law being violated?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Henderson, most of them do not have any
requirement in the law as to numbers of meetings. They merely
provide for a council and designate the membership and assign to it
some broad, general functions. There is usually not a requirement
that they have so many meetings per year or so. I do not think any
provision of law is being ignored here.
Mr. HENDEasox. What happens to the staffs of these committees
that are abolished?
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12 REORGAMZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
Mr. SEIDMAN. Most of these committees, as T said, have either met
very infrequently, or seine not at all, and do not have any staff. The
staff services are provided from the regular staff of the agency.
The National Advisory Council does have a staff. However, they
are on the rolls of the Treasury Department--they are not on the
payroll of the Committee or Council itself. So their status will not
be chap ed--particularly in the case of the NAC.
Mr. HENDER6oN. Thank you.
Chairman DAWSON. Any further questions of Plan No. 4?
(Whereupon, at 10:LO a.m., the subcommittee proceeded to further
business on Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965.)
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 Washington, D.C., February. 25, 1965.
Memorandum for the heads of Departments and Agencies:
I have just completed a review of 110 interdepartmental committees of the
Government that have been established by law or by Presidential directive.
Interdepartmental committees can often greatly facilitate coordination. But
extreme care must be exercised to make sure that a. committee is the most efficient
way to accomplish a given task and to assure that committees are used effectively.
Improper use of committees can waste time, delay action, and result in unde-
sirable compromise. Each participant in committee deliberations should assess
the work of the group continuously to assure that it is directed toward valid and
useful purposes. Committees that are not clearly accomplishing such? purposes
should be reformed or abolished.
T have asked the Budget Director to review the need for a number of committees.
Where appropriate, he will recommend steps to abolish or merge a number of them,
or to have their functions performed in other ways. I want you to lend your full
cooperation to this undertaking.
Pursuant to Bureau of the Budget Circular A-63, you will soon be preparing a
report on interdepartmental committees for fiscal year 1965. I have asked for a
report on the results of this year's review. You should apply the highest standard
of usefulness and effectiveness in your review of committees chaired by your
agency, however established, I have been advised that 163 committees were
terminated in fiscal year 1964, while 203 were established. We can and must do
better than this.
On November 19, I said to the Cabinet that to provide for the new programs
of the Great Society we must take steps to reform or eliminate existing programs
where such action is indicated. This principle should guide you in your review
of interdepartmental committees.
LYNDON B. JOHNSON.
Circular No. A-63
EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF TEE PRESIDENT,
BUREAU OF THE BUDGET,
Washington, D.C., March 2, 1964.
To: The heads of Executive Departments and Establishments.
Subject: Management of interagency committees.
1. Purpose and scope.-This circular sets forth general guidelines and instruc-
tions for the establishment, use, and termination of interagency committees. To
the extent consistent with law, it applies to all departments and agencies of the
executive branch.
For purposes of this circular, the term "interagency committee" means any
formally constituted committee, board, commission, council, conference, panel,
task force, or other similar group, or any subcommittee or other subgroup thereof,
that is composed of officers or employees of more than one department or agency
of the Government and that is organized to meet from time to time for purposes
of formulating advice or recommendations, or for any other stated purpose.
Executive Order No. 11007 of February 26, 1962, prescribes certain regulations
regarding the use of public advisory committees. There are a few such com-
mittees which have members from two or more Federal qencles in addition to
the public members. Such committees are also included within the scope of this
circular which establishes additional (and complementary) guidelines regarding
interagency committees. 1s
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2. General policies.-
(a) Responsibility for committees.- The responsibility for the management
of interagency committees (hereafter referred to as committees) rests with
the chairmen of such committees or, in cases where a subordinate official
chairs a committee, with the head of his department or agency. The chair-
man should be held responsible for the conduct of all committee activities.
Dual or rotating chairmanships may have the effect of confusing or dividing
responsibility for the committee's work and should generally be avoided.
The chairman should direct the administrative arrangements for the com-
mittee including the calling of meetings and preparation of agenda and
reports. Secretariat services should generally be provided in full by the
chairing agency.
(b) Agency contributions.-Contributions by member agencies (other than
the chairing agency) to the support of committees should be limited to cases
where the subjects to be considered are within the scope of authority and
responsibility of several agencies and no single agency has paramount responsi-
bility. If the activities of the committee meet this test and if it is not
practicable for the chairing agency to provide for the full support of the
committee, consideration should be given to the contribution of the time of
agency staff and otier participation in kind before transfers of funds are
proposed.
Contributions by members which take the form of payments of funds
should be used only in those cases where the need is so compelling or urgent
that the committee must be established immediately and no practicable
alternative can be found to meet its immediate financial needs. Financing
of the activities of the committee through a single agency, if feasible, should
be recommended to he Bureau of the Budget for consideration in connection
with the next budget submission of,the chairing agency.
(c) Approval of exceptions.-There may be circumstances in which the
special needs of a committee require a dual or rotating chairmanship or in
which contributions of funds by member agencies are required. In such
cases, the prior approval of the Director of the Bureau of the Budget should
be obtained. At that time, consideration will also be given to any special
funding and administrative support arrangements required by committees
with dual or rotating chairmanships. In the case of existing committees
which have dual or rotating chairmen or are financed by transfers of funds
from several agencies, the approval of the Director of the Bureau of the
Budget should be obtained if such arrangements are to be continued when
the committees are extended beyond 2 years under the provisions of section
2(g) of this circular.
(d) Functions of committees.-Committees are established primarily for
the purpose of assuring necessary interagency consideration or coordination
of executive branch programs or problems. Committees should be used for
such functions as advising, investigating, making reports or recommendations,
exchanging views, etc. Responsibility for performance of operating or
executive functions, such as making determinations or administering pro-
grams, should not be assigned to committees. The committee's "terms of
reference" should be be defined as accurately as possible; that is, the scope
and nature of the committee's assignment, the official to whom the committee
will report, and what it is that the committee is expected to do, e.g., advise,
investigate, report, recommend, etc.
(e) Method of establishment.-Committees should be established insofar,
as possible, by means which permit maximum flexibility in determining the
membership, functions, and duration of the group. Therefore, agencies
should not propose the establishment of committees by legislation unless
there is a clear used to do so. Further, proposals to establish committees
by Executive order should be limited generally to cases where specific dole-
gations of statutory authority or formal assignments of responsibility are
being made to a number of agencies and a coordinating committee is to
be utilized. Committees dealing with general problems of interagency
coordination or cooperation, which can be set up appropriately under exist-
ing authority, should be established by less formal documents such as mem-
oranda of agreemer.t, exchange of 'letters, etc. If they are to be standing
committees, notice of their establishment or extension (under section 2(g)
of this circular) shall be published in the Federal Register in order to facilitate
y 6w rim ]AbP*Wy. d rah agencies unless this would be
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 Approved For Release 200311011 511&}A ?? pf4jJRQg0g0g;29p9g1-2
(f) Committee membership.-In order to facilitate the work of committees,
the membership should be limited to those agencies haveng a substantial
interest in all major facets of the subjects to be dealt with. Agencies having
a limited interest in a committee's work should be invited to participate
when matters concerning their area of interest are to be considered. Informal
reports should be made to interested but nonparticipating agencies, as necea-
sary.
(g) Duration of committees: Standing committees should be established
only when the subject matter clearly indicates that benefit will accrue from
recurrent group consideration or coordination. Temporary committees or
ad hoc handling and disposition should be used for transitory matters.
Standing committees should be terminated as! soon as practicable and
ordinarily not later than the end of the second fiscal year after that in which
they were established. If the chairing agency determines in writing that
the continuation of the committee beyond 2 years is necessary, its life may
be extended for one or more additional 2-year periods or for a shorter time.
In the case of committees established by law, Executive order, or pursuant
to Presidential direction, the head of the chairing agency shall advise the
Director of the Bureau of the Budget if he believes that a committee should
be extended beyond 2 years. The Director will make such recommendations
to the President as may be appropriate regarding the amendment of laws,
Executive orders, or Presidential, directives dealing with such committees.
For the purpose of this circular, the date of formation of a committee shall
be doomed to be June 30 of the fiscal year in which the committee was
established. In the ease of committees established prior to July 1, 1962,
the date of formation shall be deemed to be Juno 30, 1962. (Extensions of
committees also covered by Executive Order 11007 will be handled in con-
formity with the provisions of that order and will be reported on under this
circular for the fiscal year in which the extension occurs.)
3. Committee management liaison.-The head of each agency responsible for the
management of committees shall designate an officer to assist him in the discharge
of his responsibilities under this circular. The name, title, office and telephone
number of this officer should be transmitted to the Bureau of the Budget by
May 31, 1964. Changes in the designation of such officers should be reported
promptly.
4. Committee management program.-The head of each agency will issue such
internal agency orders as are necessary to carryout the policies under this circular.
As a minimum, such issuances should provide for maintenance of a file containing
the information listed in the attachment on each committee and subcommittee
chaired by the agency.
5. Nomenclature.-In order to achieve uniformity within the executive branch,
designation of types of committee established hereafter should be in accordance
with the following guidelines:
(a) The terms "commission," "council " or "board" may be confused with
independent agencies of the executive branch and should be reserved for
committees established by legislation.
(b) All interagency groups of a continuing nature (standing committees)
established by other means should be called "committees" and their sub-
ordinate units should be called "subcommittees."
(c) All ad hoe groups should have titles giving a clear indication of their
temporary status. Terms such as "conference," "task force," "team,"
"party," "group," "panel," etc., can be used to denote such groups.
Where feasible, committees already in existence should have their titles
changed (at the time of their extension or otherwise) in order to bring them
into conformity with the preceding guidelines.
6. Deports.-Each agency shall submit a report on the committees and sub-
committees which it chairs to the Bureau of the Budget by April 30 of each year,
covering the current fiscal year. The report shall include the following in-
formation:
(a) The names of committees established by legislation, Executive order,
or at the direction of the President which are in existence at the time of the
report and, when required under the provisions of section 2(g) of this cir-
cular, recommendations regarding the continuation of such committees.
(b) The names of committees which are supported by interagency contri-
bution of funds or which have dual or rotating chairmanships and, when
required under the provisions of section 2(c of this circular, roposals re-
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 Approved For Releasbfi2003/10/15 Rol J~Dix8~~0081a6R0?0~'2d?d9 -2
(c) Notice of the intended continuation of committees beyond 2 years
under the provisions of section 2(g) of this circular. Such reports shall con-
tain an explanation. of the accomplishments of the committee and the reasons
for its continuation..
(d) The number of all other committees and subcommittees classified as
standing or ad hoc, and, for each category, the number created, the number
terminated, and the number in existence at the beginning and end of the
fiscal year.
(The first report under this circular should be submitted by May 31, 1964.
In the case of committees whose date of formation is deemed to be June 30, 1962,
under the provisions of section 2 above, the first report shall include the informa-
tion required in connection with the continuation of such committees.)
Inquiries to the Bureau of the Budget about this circular should be addressed
to the Office of Management and Organization (code 128, extension 21764).
I HERMIT GORDON, Director.
[Attachment-Circular No. A-03]
DATA To BE MAI STAINED IN AGENCY COMMITTEE MANAGEMENT FILES
1. Name of each committee or subcommittee chaired by the agency.
2. The means and (late of its establishment and the name and title of the
official who established the committee.
3. The departments and agencies which are members of the committee or
subcommittee and those agencies which send observers. Also, the names and
titles of the chairman and other members serving on the committee.
4. A list of all subcommittees (and their chairmen) for each parent committee.
5. The "terms of reference" of the committee or subcommittee (as described in
section 2(d)).
6. The estimated duration of the committee or subcommittee.
7. A description of the financing arrangements; a statement of the funding
source or sources; a listing of agency contributions, where authorized; and a
statement of the authority through which the committee is given financial support.
8. An estimate of all . other costs of the committee, including agency staff time
(other than secretariat) devoted to committee work, except in cases where the
staff time represents less than one-fourth of a man-year.
9. The secretariat aid staff, including the size and organizational location or
an estimate of the mar: hours required for performing secretariat services, and an
estimate of the costs involved in the performance of secretariat functions.
0
 Approved For Release ffiG$('-n ft.ffijX1P,?Z$AO XW05QQfd200A1 OF 1965
l~~l/l(hH(IINTEERjAGEYNCjY'j,000MMIITTEEQS)
HEARING
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Government Operations
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
61-207 WASHINGTON : 1965
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 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Illinois, Chalrrnesi
CIIET IOLIFIELD, Califonda CLARENCE J. BROWN, Ohio
JACK BROOKS, Texas FLORENCE P. DWYER, New Jersey
L. II. FOUNTAIN, North Carolina ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan
J PORTER IIARDY, JR., Viriinia OGDEN R. REID, New York
OHN A. BLATNIK, Minnesota FRANK J. NORTON, New York
ROBERT E. JONES, Alabama DELIIERT L. LATTA, Ohio
EDWARD A. GARMATZ, Maryland DONALD RUMSFELD, Illinois
JOHN E. MOSS, California WILLIAM L. DICKINSON, Alabama
DANTE B. FASCELL, Florida JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois jd
HENRY S. REUSS, Wisconsin HOWARD H. CALLAWAY, Georgia
JOHN S. MONAGAN, Conteeticut JOIIN W. WYDLER, New York
TORBERT H. MACDONALD, Massachusetts i
1. EDWARD ROUSH, Indiana
WILLIAM S. MOORHEAL, Pennsylvania
CORNELIUS E. GALLAGHER, New Jersey
WILLIAM J. RANDALL, Missouri
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHAL, Now York
JIM WRIGHT, Texas
FERNAND J. ST GERMAIN, Rhode Island '., '.
DAVID S. KING, Utah
JOHN G. DOW, New York '..
HENRY HELSTOSKI, New Jersey
CHRISTINE RAY DAVIS, Staff Director
JAMES A. LANI,,AN, General Counsel
MILES Q. ROMNEY,Assoeiate General Counsel
J. P. CARLSON, Minority Counsel
R,;YMOND T. COILIN9, Minority Professional Staff
EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
WILLIAM L. DAWSON, Illinois, Chairn{an
BENJAMIN S. ROSENTHAL, New York CLARENCE J. BROWN,?Ohio
CHET HOLIFIELD, California JOHN N. ERLENBORN, Illinois
HENRY S.-REUSS, Wisconsin JOHN W. WYDLER, New=York
EDWARD A. GARMATZ, Maryland
CORNELIUS E. GALLAGRER. Now Jersey
ELMER W. IYENDLSItsON, Counsel
Louis I. FREED, Investtyator
VERONICA B. JOHNSON, Clerk
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 Message from the President of the United States, transmitting Reorgani- rage
zation Plan No. 4 of 1965, relative to reorganizations of various core- e
mittecs and other similar bodies----------------------------------- 3
Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965------------------- --
Statement of Ilarold Seidman, Assistant Director for Management and
Organization, Bureau of the Budget; accompanied by Fred Levi, 4
Assistant Chief --------------------
Information submitted for the record by Ilarold Seidman, Assistant
Director for Management and Organization, Bureau of the Budget:
Excerpt from message of the President in transmitting Reorganization 5
Plan No. 4 of 1965_________________ ----- -
List of additional executive branch interagency committees which
might have been included in Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965___ 7
APPENDIX
Memorandum from Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson, President of the United
States, for the heads of departments and agencies, February 25, 1965-__ 13
Memorandum from Kermit Gordon, Director, Bureau of the Budget, to the
heads of executive departments and establishments, March 2, 1964____ 13
Attachment-Data to be maintained in agency committee manage-
meat files___________________________________________________
 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4.OF 1965
(Interagency Committees)
WEDNESDAY, JULY 14, 1965
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE
REORGANIZATION SUBCOMMITTEE
OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2203,
Rayburn Office Building, Hon. William L. Dawson (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives William L. Dawson, Henry S. Reuss,
John N. Erlenborn, and John W. Wydler.
Also present: Elmer W. Henderson, subcommittee counsel; James
A. Lanigan, general counsel Committee on Government Operations;
and J. P. Carlson, minority counsel.
(Message from the President transmitting Reorganization Plan No,
4 of 1965 follows:)
MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, TRANSMITTING REORGA-
NIZATION PLAN No. 4 OF 1965, RELATIVE TO REORGANIZATIONS OF VARIOUS
COMMITTEES AND OTHER SIMILAR BODIES
To the Congress of the United States:
I transmit herewith Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965, prepared in accordance
with the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended, and providing for reorgani-
zations of various committees and other similar bodies.
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Government's adaptability, on its capacity for fast flexible response to
changing needs imposed by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount new challenges.
As government grows more complex and programs increasingly out across
traditional agency lines, we must exercise special care to prevent the continuance
of obsolete interagency committees and other coordinating devices which waste
time and delay action and the undue proliferation of new committees. Inter-
agency committees arc a valuable and often indispensable means of facilitating
coordination, but we should be sure that a committee is the most efficient way to
accomplish a given task and that it is structured to meet current needs effectively.
At my direction, guidelines for the management of interagency committees have
been established. I have recently asked the heads of departments and agencies
to give their ppersonal attention to a complete review of all the interagency com-
mittees in which their agencies participate to determine which ones might be
eliminated, consolidated or otherwise reorganized. We will take appropriate
action to obtain essential improvements in the organization and use of those
committees which have been established by the executive branch.
The reorganizations accomplished by the reorganization plan transmitted here-
with will enable us to take similar action with respect to a number of committees
which have been established by statute. In many instances the statutory pro-
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 Approved For Release 2003/10/15: (D A4HW9 W8O4'6R006S0022O0U16.2
in detail the functions to he performed. These provisions are rarely sufficiently
flexible to permit the membership or role of the committees to be accommodated
to changing circumstca ccs or to permit their termination when they have outlived
their usefulness.
The accompanying reorganization plan will abolish nine statutory committees.
In each case the responsibility for providing suitable arrangements to assure
effective consultation and coordination is placed in a specific official. Wherever
the continuing need for and usefulness of a committee has been demonstrated,
I would anticipate the establishment of a successor committee along the general
lines of the body now provided by law. Certainly prompt action will be taken to
create successor committees to such bodies as the Board of Foreign Service and
the National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems.
But we will have the flexibility promptly to make such changes in functions and
membership as might be required to eliminate overlapping and duplication and
to adjust to the development of now programs and shifts in executive branch
responsibilities.
A number of the committees affected by the reorganization plan are advisory
to the President or have functions which are closelyrelated to responsibilities
already vested in the President. The, functions of those committees will be trans-
ferred to the President by the reorganization plan. The functions of the others
will be transferred to the appropriate individual agency heads.
The management and control of interagency committees have been a matter
of growing concern to both the executive branch and the Congress. The taking
effect of the reorganization plan will contribute significantly to better manage-
ment of interagency committees and will assist efforts to simplify and modernize
coordinating arrangements within the executive branch.
Executive Order No. 10040 of May 11, 1961, provides for the President's
Committee on Juvenile Deliqucncy and Youth Crime. The Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welf.,re is required to consult with that committee on matters of
general policy and procedure arising in the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency and Youth Offenses Control! Act of 1961 and to consider certain recom-
mendations of that committee (42 U.S.C. 2546(b)). To require the Secretary
by law to consult with a committee established by Executive order is clearly
anomalous. The plan abolishes the relevant functions of the Secretary with
respect to consulting and considering the recommendations of the President's
Committee. The reorganization plan does not otherwise affect the Committee;
it has no effect upon Executive Order No. 10940. The statutory authority for
the exercise of the furetions to be abolished by section 13(b) of the reorganization
plan is contained in section 7(b) of the Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses
Control Act of 1961 (75 Stat. 574).
After investigation I have found and hereby declare that each reorganization
included in Reorganisation Plan No. 4 of 1965 is necessary to accomplish one or
more of the purposes set forth in section 2(a) of the Reorganization Act of 1949,
as amended.
Although the reorganizations provided for in the reorganization plan will not
of themselves result ii immediate savings, the improvement achieved in adminis-
tration will in the future allow the performance of the affected functions at lower
costs and in a more timely manner than at present. It is however, impracticable
to specify or itemize at this time the reductions of expenditures which it is prob-
able will be brought about by the taking effect of the reorganizations included
in the reorganization plan.
I recommend that the Congress allow the accompanying reorganization plan to
become effective.
LYNDON B. JOHNSON.
THE WHITE IIOUsn, May 27, 1965,
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 Prepared hr the President and transmitted to the Senate and the House of Representatives In Congress
assembl, May 27, 1065, pursuant to the provisions of the Reorganization Act of 1949 (68 Stat. 203), as
amended
(a) The National Housing Council, provided for in section 6 of Reorganiza-
tion Plan No. 3 of 1947 (61 Stat. 955) tts affected by (i) section 502(a) of the
Housing Act of 1948 (62 Star. 1283; 12 U.S.C. 1701c), (ii) section 603 of the
Housing Act of 1949 (63 Stab. 440; 12 U.S.C. 17011), and by (iii) section 615 of
the Defense Housing and Community Facilities and Services Act of 1951 (65
Stat. 317; 12 U.S.C. 17011-1).
(b) The National Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial
Problems, provided for in section 4 of the Bretton Woods Agreements Act (59
Z h. 512), as amended (22 U.S.C. 286b).
c) The Board of the Foreign Service, A.C. ded for in section 211 of the Foreign
vice Act of 1946 (60 Stat. 1001; 22 U.S826).
(d) The Board of Examiners for the Foreign Service, provided for in section
212 of the Foreign Service Act of 1946 (22 U.S.C. 827).
(e) The Civilian-Military Liaison Committee, provided for in section 204 of
the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (72 Stat. 431), as amended
(42 U.S.C. 2474).
Sec. 2. Performance of transferred functions. The President may from time to
time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing the perform-
ance of the functions transferred by the provisions of section 1 of this reorgani-
zation plan by any other officers of the executive branch of the Government or
by any agencies or employees of that branch.
Sec. 3. Abolition of bodies. (a) Each of the bodies referred to in paragraphs
(a) to (o), inclusive, of section 1 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
(b) The President shall make or cause to be made such provisions as may be
necessary with respect to the winding up of any outstanding affairs of the bodies
abolished by the provisions of section 3 of this reorganization plan.
SECTION 1. Transfer of functions. All functions of each of the following-named
bodies, together with all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of each
Section 11. Transfer of functions. (a) There are hereby transferred to the
Chairman of the United States Civil Service Commission all functions of the
Advisory Council on Group Insurance, provided for in section 12(a) of the Federal
Employees' Group Life Insurance Act of 1954 (68 Stat. 742; 5 U.S.C. 2101(a)).
(b) There are hereby transferred to the Administrator of the Small Business
Administration all functions of the Loan Policy Board of the Small Business
Administration, provided for in section 4(d) of the Small Business Act (72 Stat.
385; 15 U.S.C. 633(d)).
(c) There are hereby transferred to 'the Secretary of the Interior all functions
of the advisory board provided for in section 2((a) of the Act of August 20, 1937
(50 Stat. 732), as amended (16 U.S.C. 832a(a)), commonly referred to as the
Bonneville Power Advisory Board.
(d) There are hereby transferred to the Attorney General all functions of the
/\A wards Board provided for in section 3 of the Atomic Weapons Rewards Act of
1955 (69 Stat. 365; 50 U.S.C. 47b).
(o) The transfers made by subsections (a) to (d), inclusive, of this section shall
be doomed to include all functions of the Chairman and of other officers of the
respective transferor bodies referred to in those subsections.
Sec. 12. Performance of transferred functions. Each officer to whom functions
are transferred by the provisions of section 11 of this reorganization plan may
from time to time make such provisions as he may deem appropriate authorizing
the performance of the functions so transferred to him by his subordinate oftiors,
employees, or agencies.
Soo. 13. Abolitions. (a) Each of the bodies the functions of which are trans-
ferred by the provisions of section I1 of this reorganization plan is hereby abolished.
Each officer to whom functions are transferred by those provisions shall make such
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provisions as may be neecssary with respect to the winding up of any outstanding
affairs of the body or bodies the functions of which are so transferred to him.
(b) The functions vested in the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare
by the provisions of section 7(b) of the Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Offenses
Control Act of 1961 75 Seat. 574 (42 U.S.C. 2546(b)) are hereby abolished.
Chairman DAWSON. The subcommittee will come to order.
These hearings have been called to consider two reorganization plans
transmitted to the Congress on May 27 by President Lyndon B.
Johnson.
Reorganization Plan No. 4 of 1965 transfers the functions of a num-
ber of interagency committees to the President or, in some cases, to
the heads of certain departments and agencies. The committees are
then abolished. It is the opinion of the President that these com-
mittees have become obsolete and no longer serve the purpose intended
for them.
Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965 involves: only the National
Science Foundation. A number of divisional committees within that
agency are abolished and the Director of the Foundation is given the
authority to delegate his functions to other officers or employees
within the Foundation.
Mr. Harold Seidman, Assistant Director of the Bureau of the
Budget, will testify on both plans. At the conclusion of his remarks
on Plan No. 4, he will be available for interrogation by the subcom-
mittee on that plan.
Mr, Seidman and Dr. Leland J. Haworth Director of the National
Science Foundation, will then testify on Pian No. 5 and, of course,
both will be available for interrogation on that plan.
Our first witness will be Mr. Seidman.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I am always glad to be here, Mr. Chairman.
I am accompanied, again, by Mr. Fred Levi, Assistant Chief of the
Office of Management and Organization.
Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement. With your permis-
sion, I will proceed.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD SEIDMAN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR
MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATION, BUREAU OF THE BUDGET;
ACCOMPANIED 'BY FRED LEVI, ASSISTANT' CHIEF
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee,
I appreciate the owortunity to appear before your subcommittee
in support of Reorganization Plans Nos. 4 and 5 of 1956. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 4 will abolish nine statutory interagency committees
and eliminate a statutory requirement now applicable to one com-
mittee established by Executive order. In each case all functions
of the abolished committee are transferred, as may be apppropriate,
either to the President or a specifically designated official. Reorgani-
zation Plan No. 5 will abolish all functions of the divisional commit-
tees provided for by section 8 of the National Science Foundation
Act and, in addition, will authorize certain delegations by the Director
of the National Science Foundation. The two plans were transmitted
by the President to the Congress on May 27, 1965, pursuant to the
provisions of the Reorganization Act of 1949, as amended.
The President has emphasized that there is a continuing need to
reorganize and modernize the structure of the executive branch to
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provide the Most effective administration of current and future
programs. As he stated in transmitting Reorganization Plan No. 4:
The strength and vitality of our democracy depends in major part upon the
Federal Government's adaptability, on its capacity for fast, flexible response to
changing needs imposed by changing circumstances. If we are to maintain this
capacity, we must have a government that is streamlined and capable of quickly
adjusting and readjusting its organization and operating procedures to take up
and surmount now challenges.
The need for flexibility and adaptability is particularly critical in the
area of interagency mechanisms for coordinating Federal programs
and providing advice to the President and key officials.
The complexity of modern government often requires that responsi-
bility for related or complementary activities be placed in different
departments and agencies of the executive branch. Those programs
must be coordinated in an effort to obtain the best possible utilization
of the Government's resources. One of the chief mechanisms for
obtaining coordination is the interagency committee.
Committees presently deal with a wide variety of programs and
subjects ranging from national security policy to the coordination of
the use of costly automatic data processing equipment. However,
they are effective only when they are properly utilized. Otherwise,
as the President has said, they waste time, delay action and result
in undesirable compromise. Committees must constantly be re-
viewed to assure that they meet current requirements and are directed
toward useful and productive goals.
While it is possible for the President and the agency heads to adjust
the organization and functions of committees which are established
by Executive action., they do not have the authority to reorganize and
modernize certain committees created in statute. As a result, as
time goes on, those committees often cannot be adapted to meet
changes in law, reassignments of responsibilities within the executive
branch and the development of now programs. The President has
noted that:
In many instances the statutory provisions creating these committees are very
specific as to membership and describe in detail the functions to be performed.
Cthesc provisions are rarely sufficiently flexible to permit the membership or role
of the, committees to be accommodated to changing circumstances or to permit
their termination when they have outlived their usefulness.
The President has transmitted Reorganization Plan No. 4 to pro-
vide necessary flexibility in carrying out certain coordinating and
advisory functions now vested in specific statutory committees. The
plan would abolish the National Housing Council, the National
Advisory Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems,
the Board of the Foreign Service, the Board of Examiners of the
Foreign Service and the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee estab-
lished in the National Aeronautics and Space Act. Since these
groups carry out functions which may be of direct Presidential con-
cern, the plan provides for the transfer of their functions to the
President and gives him the authority to provide for their performance.
It should be noted that the President has said:
Wherever the, continuing need for arid usefulness of a committee has been
demonstrated, I would anticipate the establishment of a successor committee
along the general lines of the body now provided by law. Certainly prompt
action Till general
taken to create successor committees to such bodies as the Board
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REORGANIZATION PLA
of Foreign Service and the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems.
The reorganization plan would also abolish the Advisory Council
on Group Insurance, the Loan Policy Board of the Small Business
Administration, the Bonneville Power Advisory Board and. the
Atomic Weapons Awards Board.' Those groups perform functions
primarily of concern to certain agency heads, and their functions would
be transferred to those agency heads who would provide for their
performance in an appropriate manner. Finally, the plan would
abolish the statutory requirement that the Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare consult with the President's Committee on
Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Crime on matters of general policy
and procedures arising in the administration of the Juvenile Delin-
quency and Youth Offenses Control Act of 1961 and consider recom-
mendations of that Committee. The President's Committee was
established by Executive Order No. 10940, May 11, 1961.
As a result of the taking effect of the reorganization plan, the
President and the heads of the agencies involved will. have the neces-
sary authority and flexibility to carry out, in a manner appropriate to
meet current needs, the coordinating and advisory functions of groups
being abolished. The plan will assure that timely and efficient
mechanisms can be utilized. Accordingly, l recommend that Re-
organization Plan No. 4 of 1965 be allowed to become effective.
I would also like to point out that the reorganization plan represents
only a part of the administration's program to control and manage
the approximately 550 interagency committees that now exist.
The guidelines for that program are contained in the Bureau of the
Budget Circular No. A-63, entitled "Management of Interagency
Committees." The circular places the principal responsibility for
committee management on agency heads, requires periodic reviews
and reports, and a positive determination by the agency head before
any committee can continue for longer than 2 years. ?,Under the cir-
cular, the Bureau a.so retains the authority to approve the use of
certain devices such as dual or rotating chairmanships and the fi-
nancing of committees by agency;contributions.
Chairman DAwsoN. Mr. Reuss.
Mr. REuss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Seidman, why does the plan affect these 9 out of the total of
550 interagency committees?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Reuss, molt of the 550 were established by
Executive action, so that the President can take the necessary meas-
ures to assure modifications to meet current requirements. In other
words, they have either been established by Executive order of the
President or by adrunistrative action of a department head.
Mr. REUSE. Are these the only nine interagency committees
established by statu',e?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; they are not.
Mr. REuss. How many are there?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I think there are approximately 16 such committees.
Mr. REUSE. Wha. about the other seven?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Certain of the other committees which we had
excluded from consideration at this time-I think some are question-
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in them-such as the Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corpora-
tion, which technically is an interagency committee. It includes
representatives from it number of agencies. But on the other hand,
it acts as a Board of Directors of the Virgin Islands Corporation. We
excluded that type of body from consideration.
Mr. Reuss. Would you file at this point in the record, Mr. Seidman,
a listing of the seven statutory interagency committees or near com-
mittees not included in this reorganization order, together with some
explanation of why they are not included? I am sure there is a good
explanation in each case.
(The listing requested follows:)
LIST OF ADDITIONAL EXECUTIVE BRANOII INTERAGENCY COMMITTEES WiICu
MIGHT HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN REORGANIZATION PLAN No. 4 or 1365
There are approximately 52 committees established in statute which include
agencies of the executive branch. The largest number of these committees are
public advisory groups with one or two agencies included among the members.
Several are composed of members from both the legislative and executive branches.
These two types of committees fall outside the scope of this reorganization plan.
Also excluded from this review are interagency groups which have the status of
agencies (e.g. the National Security Council), have quasi-judicial or operating
functions (e.g. Foreign Trade Zones Board) or act as Boards of Directors for
Federal educational, scientific, or cultural activities (e.g. Board of Trustees of the
John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts). The following is a list of the
remaining seven executive branch interagency committees which might have been
included in the reorganization plan along with the. reasons they were excluded.
Name Reason the committee was not included in the plan
1. Board of Geographic Names-------- Additional members may be added from
time to time.
2. Adjustment Assistance Advisory President has authority to designate
Board. additional members.
3. Area Redevelopment Advisory The Public, Works and Redevelopment
Policy Board. Act of 1365 permits the President to
all bers.
4. Economic Opportunity Council---- Permits t
hou President to add members
from time, to time.
5. Committee for Statistical Annota- No specification of membership or de-
tion of Tariff Schedules. vice to be used.
6. Trade Expansion Act Advisory President has fall authority to name the
Committee. members.
7. Development Loan Committee---- President has authority to establish
membership.
Mr. REUSS. A particularly august interagency committee which
you are abolishing under this Reorganization. Plan No. 4-though the
President notes that he will reconstitute it-is the National Advisory
Council on International Monetary and Financial Problems, which
was set up under the Bretton Woods legislation in 1944, I believe.
I have had some problems with it in the past because it developed
symptoms of bureaucratic sluggishness. I know that on one occa-
sion Congress was sent a document bearing the imprimatur of the
National Advisory Council, but when I inquired why it had not been
signed by the five members I found out they had not met or really
done anything about it-that somebody in the backroom had pre-
pared their recommendation.
How will this reorganization plan change the National Advisory
Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I can point to some of the problems, Mr. Reuss,
which have resulted from the statutory status of the National Ad-
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We are now conside ing within the executive branch-the Treasury
Department has submitted a dral~t of a propose(] Executive order
which would reestablish it new
Mr. Reuss. Would the same mejnber~--
Mr. SEIDMAN. They are proposing the same members. One of the
problems here is that at the time of the creation of this council, the
only significant foreign lending prggranu that we had in the Federal
Government was basically the Export-Import Bank. A major con-
corn at the time it was established was really to determine the U.S.
Government policy in the International Bank and Fund, and to pro-
vide a vehicle for instructing our delegates to the Ban]c and Fund, and
to coordinate their activities with the Export-Import Bank.
Of course, since that time we have developed major international
financial programs which are carried out through the Agency for
International Development and through the Public Law 480 program
of the Department ofAgriculture.
Now, the membership of the N AC remains the: same. It includes
the State Department, Conunerce, the Chairman of the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve, System, and the President of the
Export-Import Bank.
It is a good question, as to whether the membership ought to be
revised in the light of current programs we are carrying out within
the Federal Government-particularly should the Secretary of Agri-
culture be it meriber-this is certainly one of the questions which
ought to be considered.
Mr. Reuss. Undo- this reorganization plan, it, could be abolished
and not reconstitutec at all, could it not?
Mr. SErmmAN. That is right. The President may well determine
under certain circumstances that other arrangements would be more
effective in doing the job that needs to be done.
Mr. Reuss. And is you have, indicated, it can equally be recon-
stituted, but with certain present members left off, and others added.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is correct. I do not know what the decision
will be. For example, I know friom time to time the Secretary of
Labor has indicated that it might well be apppropriate to have the
Department of Labor represented !oil the NA(:.
As programs change, we have not wanted to go up for an amend-
ment, merely to change the membership on one of these committees.
It is time consuming.
Mr. Ruuss. I have had frequent opportunities to deal with the
National Advisory Council, and', I may say that 1 rmi not going
to weep at its funeral ]love. I see, no particular reason why it should
be retained as it statutory eouncil.~ Furthermore,, I am not at all sure,
if I may give some gratuitous advice,. that it should be formally re-
constituted once and. for all. It is set up to give advice on the Inter-
national Monetary Fund and the World Bank---an agency which now
includes several subsidiaries which did not exist hack then. And I
should think that cuite different people aright be required to give
advice on, lot us say, the IDA aspect of the world Bank, than would
be required to give advice, let us say, on international monetary
matters. Certainly the Secretary of the Treasury ought to give
advice on international monetary matters. But I should think that,
equu~aa~l~~lY, the Director of the AIDshould be consulted on what becomes
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Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, that is certainly a type of issue that will be
given very careful consideration.
Mr. WYDLER. Would the gentleman yield to me at this point?
How many times in the last year did the National Advisory Council
meet?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The staff-
Mr. WYDLER. I am talking about the full Council.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The full Council has not met very frequently, and
during the period when Mr. Humphrey was Secretary of the Treasury
under the Eisenhower administration, it did not meet at all.
Mr. REuss. The gentleman from New York has put his finger on
one of the difficulties. Hero you have the Secretary of State and the
Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Commerce, plus other
important officials on this Council. Yet, under the statute, they are
required to give advice on the most picayune little matters concerning
the International Monetary Fund. On at least one occasion I was
distressed to find that this great organism spoke, yet the Secretaries
of State, Treasury, and so on had not really been there, had not met.
And while they later hastily got together and signed the document, it
was not a very good way of giving advice.
Mr. WYDLEE. They ratified it.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I might point out that these committees often do
work informally where they involve Cabinet-level people.
In the case of the NAC there is a very active staff for the committee,
and problems are considered at the staff level in weekly meetings.
This includes not only the staff of the NAC, but of the various agencies.
Very often the principals will talk to each other on the telephone
about some of the issues which are before the Council, rather than
have a formal meeting. But the bulk of the work certainly is done
at the staff level.
Mr. REuSS. Well, I conclude by saying that in general I think this
is a useful reorganization plan. But I would hope that the President
might review his determination as expressed in your statement that
"Prompt action will be taken to create successor committees to such
bodies as the National Advisory Council on International Monetary
and Financial Problems." I am not really sure that formal committee
constitution is what is needed to get this kind of advice, and I would
hate to see that done under an Executive order which merely repeats
the stratification that Congress achieved when it put this into the law.
Mr. SEIDMAN. We are now soliciting the views of the other agencies
in the executive branch on the draft proposed by Treasury, and I am
sure we will have suggestions coming from the Department of State
and the Agency for International Development and the Department
of Agriculture and others as to the course of action which ought to
be taken.
I do feel strongly we do need in this particular area a more formal
type of coordinating mechanism. This is without saying exactly
what its function should be or its membership. But I think there is
a need.
Mr. REuss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Erlenborn.
Mr. ERLENBOEN. I have no questions.
Chairman DAWSON. Mr. Wydler?
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I would like you to explain the final part of this plan, which is the
reason why we are not going to have the Secretary of Health, Educa-
tion, and Welfare consult with the President's Committee any longer.
Why is that?
Mr. SEIDMAN. This is a very curious provision in the law. The
President's Committee was set up by Executive order. It was not
set up in law. And then by statute the Secretary of Health, Educe-
Lion, and Welfare was required to consult with a committee which
was created by the President by Executive order. This is a rather
anomalous provision. If the President chose to abolish this commit-
tee, which he has full authority to do, then there would be a question
as to how the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare could
carry out this functior assigned to trim by law.
Mr. WYlli.ER. Is this actually creating a real problem, or is this just
something to obviate a problem that might arise, or what?
Mr. SEmMAN. It obviates a problem that might arise, because it
would create difficulties at such time as the President might determine
that the President's Committee had outlived its usefu~nese, and he
would want to abolish it. But lie would in effect by the existence of
this statutory provision-in effect,., be debarred from abolishing the
Committee, unless he wanted to raise questions with respect to how
the Secretary of Health, Education,and Welfare administered this act.
This relates to the general program which the President has in-
structed us to carry out within the executive branch. In effect the
President has said that he wants each interagency committee reviewed
each 2 years, and if there isn't an affirmative determination by the
responsible official that it needs to be continued, its life ends at the
end of 2 years.
The President believes-and I think we have made available to the
committee staff a copy of the President's statement on the committee
problem-that while the Interagejicy Committee is a highly useful
and often an indispensable device, when they outlive their usefulness,
they often become serious obstacles to the most efficient performance
of functions within the executive branch of the Government.
The Jackson subcommittee, in their study of national policy ma-
chinery, in the Senate, went into this at great length-that the inter-
agency committees vary often slow down the process of Government
considerably without contributing] anything positive.
Mr. WYDLEn. Was somebody complaining about this requirement,
perhaps the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare?
Mr. SEIDMAN. No; there was no complaint. This was part of the
general review we undertook of interagency committees at the request
of the President. And this was one clearly anomalous provision,
where the Congress had by law required an agency head to consult a
committee estalishel by the President by Executive order.
Mr. WYDLEU. All right.
Now, I am most interested in this elimination of the Civilian Mili-
tary Liaison Committee in NASA:
Who are the members of that committee?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The Committee has had one meeting in July 1959,
and has never met since.
Mr. WYDLEI. We'.1, after seeing some of the problems in that
agency, I think they might have met for some good purposes in the
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I am just curious-who are the members?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, the law provides that the Committee shall
consist of a Chairman who should be appointed by the President and
serve at the pleasure of the President, one or more representatives
from the Department of Defense, and one or more representatives
from each of the Departments of Army, Navy, and Air Force, to be
assigned by the Secretary of Defense to serve on the Committee.
And then representatives from NASA to be assigned by the Adminis-
trator, to serve on the Committee, equal in number to the number of
representatives assigned to serve on the Committee from Defense.
So you have an equal number from Defense and NASA.
We do have another coordinating mechanism here. And this is
one of the reasons that this Committee has never met.
The functions which were contemplated would be performed by
the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee are now performed by the
Aeronautics and Astronautics Coordinating Board, which is co-
chaired by the NASA Administrator and the Secretary of Defense.
Mr. WYDLER. In other words, they have raised the level of this
Board up in effect.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is right.
Mr. WYDLEn. Because, I will tell you quite frankly, my experience
on the Science and Astronautics Committee has been that this area of
civil-military liaison is a very important one, and one where we could
use improvement. And therefore I would think this would be a little
inconsistent to eliminate that Committee if it was really performing
any function at all, or if it could perform some useful function.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, I think this illustrates the problem-I do not
think a statutory committee can achieve the kind of coordination
which is desired unless it is suited to the needs which are presented
in a particular area. And in this case it was found that other arrange-
ments would be more satisfactory and the Secretary of Defense and
the Administrator of NASA established the Aeronautics and Astro-
nautics Coordinating Board.
These committees which are provided for in statute-some of them
have never met.
We have one which is included in the plan, the Atomic Weapons
Awards Board-which has never met.
Mr. WYDLER. Would that be true of the National Housing Council?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The National Housing Council has not met since
1960.
Mr. WYDLER. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman..
Mr. IIENDERSON. If these committees are set up by statute, isn't
there some requirement that they meet; and is this requirement of
law being violated?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Henderson, most of them do not have any
requirement in the law as to numbers of meetings. They merely
provide for a council and designate the membership and assign to it
some broad, general functions. There is usually not a requirement
that they have so many meetings per year or so. I do not think any
provision of law is being ignored here.
Mr. IIENDERSON. What happens to the staffs of these committees
that are abolished?
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Mr. SEIDMAN. Most of these committees, as I said, have either met
very infrequently, or some not at all, and do not have any staff. The
staff services are provided from the''. regular staff of the agency.
The National Advis3ry Council does have a staff. However, they
are on the rolls of tin Treasury Department-they are not on the
payroll of the Committee or Council itself. So their status will not
be changed--particularly in the case of the NAC.
Mr. HENDERSON. Thank you.
Chairman DAWSON. Any further questions of Plan No. 4?
(Whereupon, at 10:50 a.m., the subcommittee proceeded to further
business on Reorganization Plan No. 5 of 1965.)
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 Washington, D.C., February 26;1965.
Memorandum for the heads of Departments and Agencies:
I have just completed a review of 119 interdepartmental committees of the
Government that have been established by law or by Presidential directive.
Interdepartmental committees can often greatly facilitate coordination. But
extreme care must be exercised to make sure that a committee is the most efficient
way to accomplish a given task and to assure that committees are used effectively.
Improper use of committees can waste time, delay action, and result in unde-
sirable compromise. Each participant in committee deliberations should assess
the work of the group continuously to assure that it is directed toward valid and
useful purposes. Committees that are not clearly accomplishing such purposes
should be reformed or abolished.
I have asked the Budget Director to review the need for a number of committees.
Where appropriate, he will recommend steps to abolish or merge a number of them
or to have their functions performed in other ways. I want you to lend your full
cooperation to this undertaking.
Pursuant to Bureau of the Budget Circular A-63, you will soon be preparing a
report on interdepartmental committees for fiscal year 1965. I have asked for a
report on the results of this year's review. You should apply the highest standard
of usefulness and effectiveness in your review of committees chaired by your
agency, however established. I have been advised that 163 committees were
terminated in fiscal year 1964, while 203 were established. We can and must do
better than this.
On November 19, I said to the Cabinet that to provide for the new programs
of the Great Society we must take steps to reform or eliminate existing programs
where such action is indicated. This principle should guide you in your review
of interdenartmentnl n-at..,...
Washington, 1 9 6 4
To': The heads of Executive Departments and Establishments.
Subject:, Management of interagency committees.
tiops for theses eand scope , .-This stablishment, use, and termination of interag ncy guidelines
s. To
the extent consistent with law, it applies to all departments and agencies of the
executive branch.
For. purposes of this circular, the term "interagency committee" means any
formally constituted committee, board, commission, council, conference, panel,
task force, or other similar group, or any subcommittee or other subgroup thereof,
that is composed of officers or employees of more than one department or agency
of the Government and that is organized to meet from time to time for purposes
of formulating advice or recommendations, or for any other stated purpose.
Executive Order No. 11007 of February 26, 1962, prescribes certain regulations
regarding the use of public advisory committees. There are a few such com-
mittees which have members from two or more Federal agencies in addition to
the public members. Such committees are also included within the scope of this
circular which establishes additional (and complementary) guidelines regarding
interagency committees.
13
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14 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
2. General policies.-
(a) Responsibility or conanaittees.-'The responsibility for the management
of interagency coma ittees (hereafter referred to as committees) rests with
the chairmen of such committees or, in cases where a subordinate official
chairs a committee, with the head of his department or agency. The chair-
man should be held responsible for the conduct of all committee activities.
Dual or rotating chairmanships may have the effect of confusing or dividing
responsibility for the committee's work and should generally be avoided.
The chairman she ild direct the administrative arrangements for the com-
mittee including the calling of meetings and preparation of agenda and
reports. Secretariat services should generally be provided in full by the
chairing agency.
(b) Agency contributions.-Contributions by member agencies (other than
the chairing agency) to the support of committees should be limited to cases
where the subjects to be considered are within the scope of authority and
responsibility of several agencies and no single agency his paramount responsi-
bility. If the activities of the committee meet this test and if it is not
practicable for the chairing agency to provide for the full support of the
committee, consideration should be given to the contribution of the time of
agency staff and other participation in kind before transfers of funds are
proposed.
Contributions by members which take the form of payments of funds
should be used only in those cases where the need is so compelling or urgent
that the committee must be established immediately and no practicable
alternative can be found to meet its immediate financial needs. Financing
of the activities of the committee through a single agency, if feasible, should
be recommended to the Bureau of the Budget for consideration in connection
with the next budget submission ofthe chairing agency.
(c) Approval of exceptions.-There may be circumstances in which the
special needs of a committee require a dual or rotating chairmanship or in
which contributions. of funds by member agencies are required. In such
cases, the prior approval of the Director of the Bureau of the Budget should
be obtained. At that time, consideration will also be given to any special
funding and administrative support arrangements required by committees
with dual or rotating chairmanships. In the case of existing committees
which have dual or rotating chairmen or are financed by transfers of funds
from several agencies, the approval of the Director of the Bureau of the
Budget should be obtained if such arrangements are to be continued when
the committees are extended beyond 2 years under the provisions of section
2(g) of this circular..
(d) Functions of committees.-Committees are established primarily for
the purpose of assuring necessary interagency consideration or coordination
of executive branch, programs or problems. Committees should be used for
such functions as ac vising, investigating, making reports or recommendations,
exchanging views, etc. Responsibility for performance of operating or
executive functions, such as making determinations or administering pro-
grams, should not be assigned to committees. The committee's "terms of
reference" should be be defined as accurately as possible. that is, the scope
and nature of the committee's assignment, the official to whom the committee
will report, and wt at it is that the committee is expected to do, e.g., advise,
investigate, report, recommend, etc.
(e) Method of establishment.-Committees should be established insofar,
as possible, by means which permit maximum flexibility in determining the
membership, func.ions, and duration of the, group. Therefore, agencies
should not propose the establishment of committees by legislation unless
there is a clear need to do so. Further, proposals! to establish committees
by Executive order should be limited generally to cases where specific dele-
gations of statutory authority on formal asaignme}nts of responsibility are
being made to a number of agencies and a coordinating committee is to
be utilized. Conmittees dealing with general problems of interagency
coordination or cooperation, which can be set up appropriately under exist-
ing authority, should be established by less formal documents such as mem-
oranda of agreement, exchange of letters, etc. If they are to be standing
committees, notice of their establishment or extension (under section 2(g)
of this circular) shall be published in the Federal Register in order to facilitate
convient and permanent reference by Federal agencies, unless this would be
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REORGANIZATION PLAN NO,. 4 OF 1965
(f) Committee membership,-In order to facilitate the work of committees,
the membership should he limited to those agencies havong a substantial
interest in all major facets of the subjects to be dealt with. Agencies having
a limited interest in a committee's work should be invited to participate
when matters concerning their area of interest are to be considered. Informal
reports should be made to interested but nonparticipating agencies, as neces-
sary.
(g) Duration of committees.-Standing committees should be established
only when the subject matter clearly indicates that benefit will accrue front
recurrent group consideration or coordination. Temporary committees or
ad hoc handling and disposition should be used for transitory matters.
Standing committees should be terminated as soon as practicable and
ordinarily not later than the end of the second fiscal year after that in which
they were established. If the chairing agency determines in writing that
the continuation of the committee beyond 2 years is necessary, its life may
be extended for one or more additional 2-yearperiods or for a shorter time.
In the case of committees established by law, Executive order, or pursuant
to Presidential direction, the head of the chairing agency shall advise the
Director of the Bureau of the Budget if he believes that a committee should
be extended beyond 2 years. The Director will make such recommendations
to the President as may be appropriate regarding the amendment of laws,
Executive orders, or Presidential directives dealing with such committees.
For the purpose of this circular, the date of formation of a committee shall
be deemed to be June 30 of the fiscal year in which the committee was
established. In the case of committees established prior to July 1, 1962,
the date of formation shall be doomed to be June 30, 1962. (Extensions of
committees also covered by Executive Order 11007 will be handled in con-
formity with the provisions of that order and will be reported on under this
circular for the fiscal year in which the, extension occurs.)
3. Committee management liaison.-The head of each agency responsible for the
management of committees shall designate an officer to assist him in the discharge
of his responsibilities under this circular. The name, title, office and telephone
number of this officer should be transmitted to the Bureau of the Budget by
May 31, 1964. Changes in the designation of such officers should be reported
promptly.
4. Committee management program.-The head of each agency will issue such
internal agency orders as are necessary to carry out the policies under this circular.
As a minimum, such issuances should provide for maintenance of a file containing
the information listed in the attachment on each committee and subcommittee
chaired by the agency.
5. Nomenclature.-In order to achieve uniformity within the executive branch,
designation of types of committee established hereafter should be in accordance
with the following guidelines:
(a) The terms "commission," "council," or "board" may be confused with
independent agencies of the executive branch and should be reserved for
committees established by legislation.
(b) Al] interagency groups of a continuing nature (standing committees)
established by other income should be called "committees" and their sub-
ordinate units should be called "subcommittees."
(c) All ad hoe groups should have titles giving a clear indication of their
temporary status. Terms such as "conference," "task force," "team,"
"party,' "grou," "panel," etc., can be used to denote such groups.
Where feasible,pcommittees already in existence should have their titles
changed (at the time of their extension or otherwise) in order to bring them
into conformity with the preceding guidelines.
6. Reports.-Each agency shall submit a report on the committees and sub-
committees which it chairs to the Bureau of the Budget by April 30 of each year,
covering the current fiscal year. The report shall include the following in-
formation:
(a) The names of committees established by legislation, Executive order,
or at the direction of the president which are in existence at the time of the
report and, when required under the provisions of section 2(g) of this cir-
cular, recommendations regarding the continuation of such committees.
(6) The namos of committees which are supported by interagency contri-
bution of funds or which have dual or rotating chairmanships and, when
required under the provisions of section 2(c) of this circular, proposals re-
garding the continuation of such arrangements.
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16 REORGANIZATION PLAN NO. 4 OF 1965
(c) Notice of the intended continuation of committees,beyond 2 years
under the provisions of section 2(g) of this circular. Such reports shall con-
tain an explanation o the accomplishments of the committee and the reasons
for its continuation.
(d) The number of all other committees and subcommittees classified as
standing or ad hoc, end, for each category, the number created, the number
terminated, and the number in existence at the beginning and end of the
fiscal year.
(The first report under this circular should be submitted by May 31, 1964.
in the case of committees whose date of formation is deemed to be June 30, 1962,
under the provisions of section 2 above, the first report shall include the informa-
tion required in connection with the continuation of such committees.)
Inquiries to the Bureau of the Budget about this circular should be addressed
to the Office of Management and Organization (code 128, extension 21764).
KEaMIT GORDON, Director.
[Attachment-Circular No. A-31
DATA To BE MAINTAINED IN AGE$CY COMMITTEE MANAGEMENT FILrs
1. Name of each committee or subcommittee chaired by the agency.
2. The means and date of its establishment and the name and title of the
official who established the committee.
3. The departments and agencies which are members of the committee or
subcommittee and thosv agencies whichl. Bond observers. Also, the names and
titles of the chairman and other members serving on the committee.
4. A list of all subcon.mittecs (and their chairmen) for each parent committee.
5. The "terms of reference" of the committee or subcommittee (as described in
section 2(d)).
6. The estimated duration of the committee or subcommittee.
7. A description of the financing arrangements; a statement of the funding
source or sources; a listing of agency contributions, where authorized; and a
statement of the authority through which the committee is given financial support.
8. An estimate of all other costs of the committee, including agency staff time
(other than secretariat) devoted to committee work, except in cases where the
staff time represents less than one-fourth of a man-year.
9. The secretariat and staff, including the size and organizational location or
an estimate of the man-hours required for performing secretariat services, and an
estimate of the costs involved in the performance of secretariat functions.
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