FORMER CIA AGENT INTERVIEWED

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP75-00001R000200350014-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 12
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: November 24, 1998
• Sequence Number: 14
• Publication Date: May 19, 1960
• Content Type: TRANS

FOIAb3b
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WBNY (Buffalo, N.Y.) 19 May 1960
FORMER CIA AGENT INTERVIEWED
CPYRGHT BE Gray at ll:05 PM over WMCA (NT) and WBNY (Buffalo,
Barry Gray was listing his upcoming guests, and had already intro,
Louis de Rochemont.
GRAY: "Then I'll be talking with Lyle Munson, former CIA agent and book
publisher with great knowledge of Soviet and counter-Soviet espionage; and to
Mr. Robert Morris, formerly the counsel of the United States Senate Internal
Security Committee, who exposed Soviet spies at the United Nations and, incidentally,
was criticized for it at the time."
"Let's meet our guests. The guests are Lyle Munson, former CIA agent and
book publisher, with great knowledge of the Soviet and counter-Soviet espionage;
Robert Morris, the former counsel of the United States Senate Internal Security
Committee; and Louis de Rochemont, producer of the new Columbia film, 'Man on
a String'.
"Gentlemen, if you'll be seated. Mr. Morris is reading the headlines for
tomorrow; and Lyle Munosn is sitting here looking as though he wished he were dead;
and Louis do Rochemont is wondering what he's doing here when he could be
sitting imbibing atthe Overseas Press Club. (LAUGHTER) That's a clear des-
cription, isn't it?
"Mr. De Rochemont, let's start with you."
Barry Gray talked with Louis do Rochemont, about his movie, how it tied in
very neatly with current news, about his other movies, about the March of Time
and its announcer Westbrook Van Voorhis.
GRAY: "Mr. Munson, the CIA is what?"
MUNSON: "Central Intelligence Agency."
GRAY: "And what is its--.what are its duties?"
MUNSON: "Well, I think technically, the chartered responsibilities are two:
number one, to collect, assess and evaluate intelligence; and secondly, there
is an operational arm which w uld be chartered, I suppose, to do in the enemies
of this country."
GRAY: "And how load did you serve with.the CIA?"
MUNSON: "Roughly, three years.'"
GRAY: "How does one become-an agent of the CIA?"
MUNSON: "Well, I think that we should characterize my responsibilities
as an officer of the Agency, rather than as an agent of the Agency."
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GRAY: "In other words, yours was an appointed position?"
MUNSON: "Yes,"
GRAY: "'Rather than examinations and tests and so on."
MONSON: 'Well, Iva had all of the examinations and tests. I've hat
previous time in the 0SS and such things."
GRAY: "An today, what do you do?"
MUNSON: "I'm a book publisher and book distributor."
GRAY: "This is a pretty far cry from cloak and dagger, isn't it?"
MUNSON: "Well, it's a real wide business, with associations all over
the world."
GRAY: "Do you get nervous about what you know}-is going. on and, sometimes.,
our apathy--occasionally sparked by stories such as we read this week-but
generally, apathy?"
MUNSON: "Well, I'm as nervous as you are about the apathy. I have to
hasten to say that I doubt that I know any more about what is going on than
anybody else in the warid. I know what I read in the newspapers."
GRAY: "When did you leave the CIA?"
MUNSON: 111952."
BRAY: "And were events taking place then that have not yet been exposed
in your opinion?'t
MUNSON.. "OH, I should say a great many things took place that have not
been exposed."
GRAY: "Do you believe, on the basis of your knowledge and experience, that
things are worse or better than they tell us they are?"
MUNSON: "Well, they're certainly worse than they were in 19526 I don't
associate this with my departure from the agency. Again, re refer primarily
to the apathy of the Americas publics and the fact that they have not been led
or influenced or caused to understand the problems we face."
GRAY: "Do you think that this apathy is born of political--I'm not trying
to make a political speech here, I'm merely trying to get at the facts -- do
you think that this apathy is born of the lack of leadership of those who mold
public opinion."
MUNSON: "Well, I think it's a combination of the three. But of courses in
any atmosphere where apathy prevails, it must be attributed to a lack of leader-
ship of those who mold public opinion."
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GRAY: "Mr. Morris, I think that should be your cue. As a fighting
Republican who occasionally -- -many tunes rather -- disagrees with his party's
leadership and directives. Would you say that's a fair statement?"
MORRIS: "Well, no, I try to take a position regardless of.what the party
position is. As a Republican, of course, as much as possible you try to follow
the policies of the party. But then, above all, your obligation is to the truth
as you see it; and call your shots accordingly."
Barry Gray and Robert Morris went on to talk about his political stand and
his point of view on the impossibility of co-existence with Russia, on the
danger of Fidel Castro's Communist-aimed regime in Cuba, and on the parallel
between the Communist take-over of Cuba with that of China.
MORRIS: "...I think it's as plain as the nose on our face; and here we're
going to allow a third big Soviet base--Soviet Union; Red China, and now Cuba->
established whence they're going to direct their activities against us. And
now we still have time. Now, I say, this is--should be--the focal point of our
activity in the months ahead."
GRAY: "Mr. Munson, any comment?"
MUNSON: "Couldn't agree more."
Mr. Morris went on to discuss the fault of the administration in allowing
Batista to fail, or allowing at leadt Batista's fall only to be followed by a
Communist-controlled governments
GRAY: "Exactly. If you have this information, then how come the President
and our universities and our great political groups brought Fidel Castro into
the United States and lionized him and feted him and gave him luncheons and
cheered him, and so on?"
MORRIS: "Well, Barry, again--you were asking Mr.. Munson here, you were
pressing him as to why this think is taking place. I think this is a national
mood. This is a--Lenin used the term 'Left Sickness' and there is something
like that. Here we are faced with a phenomenon today of Khrushchev and the
Soviet power getting stronger; and yet the people identified with resistance to
this force--the people who have identified themselves with trying to roll this
thing back -- are becoming eclipsed more and more."
Mr. Morris went on to explain that in the US there has been a deepening
playing down of Communist espionage and an increasing pretending that it does
not exist; and that with one single exwrnpls of U.S. directed espionage, the
U.S. isa villain in the Was of the world.
GRAYt "Ladies and gentlemen.. I an going to pause for a moment in this
discussion with Robert Morris, the former counsel of the United States Senate
Internal Security ~'ommittee; and Mr. Lyle Munson, formerly an agent for the
Central Intelligence Agency, and now a book publisher; and Mr. Louis de Rochemont,
the producer of the new Columbia film, 'Man on a String'."
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"Returning-to the discussion now, with Louis de Rochemont, motion picture
producer of Columbia's now film, 'Man on a String'; Lyle Munson, formerly a
member of the CIA; and Robert Morris, formerly counsel of the United States
Senate Internal Security Committee.'"
All four went on to talk about the situation vis-a-vis Communism in Latin
America and particularly in Cuba, Mr. Morris saying that if present trends
continue, there will be Russian missile pads in Cuba in two years, and that
as Marx had said, Communist trimph can come with hardly a shot being fired.
GRAY: "I'm sure, Mr. Munson, that since you've 'become a book publisher,
very few people have come around to asking questions about some of the people
that you must have crossed patchs with in those days, that are still operating."
MUNSON: "Well, Bob Morris comes frequently."-
GRAY: "Well, unfortunately..."
MUNSON: "Let me throw in just one comment about the Castro situation.
There are those who in this country have photographs of the refueling tanks
which are being built down there, which can only be for the purpose of refueling
the Soviet submarine fleet; and nobody has protested or s aid anything about it.,,
GRAY: "Even more shocking, Mr. Munson, I read the other day that we're
spending a considerable sum of money training Cuban pilots at our bases under
our exchange program."
MUNSON: "And some of those planes are being flown by the 100 Red Chinese
that Bob spoke about a few moments ago."
GRAY: "But if all of this information is available, why doesn't it appear
in places where people will get angry, upset, shocked, fighting mad-whatever?"
MORRIS: "Well, that's the question that I can't answer; and it's one of the
real--.if historians look back at this period, Barry, and I hope there are
historians, ours.-..they will say that the reaction of the people was one of the
most ironical concivable. I mean, as this thing gets more formidable, and gets
closer, the greater we yawn, and the more we let down our guard. It's just a
tremendous phenomenon. I've seen it first hand, over and over again."
DE ROCHEMONT: "Isn't Russia doing the same in Mexico today?"
MORRIS: "Doing the same as what?"
DE ROCHEMONT: "As it's doing in Cuba. Hasn't Mikoyna been there? Haven't
they had scores of agents in Mexico?"
MORRIS: wdell, except that the Mexican government isnot pro-communist
in any sense of the work-.it's neutralist in fact."
MUNSON: "Well, they have scores of agents, not only in Mexico and Cuba,
but right here in the United States."
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MORRIS: "But, as you may., Mr. De Rochemont, Mexico City, apparently, is
the Soviet headquarters."
Barry Gray and Mr. Morris talked about the degree to which politicians
were popular or not popular as they are identified with anti-Communist causes,
because of a national climate that is disinterested in the whole idea.
MUNSON: "It may just be that events of the last two weeks, however--
of the last ten days--will somewhat change this national mood."
GRAY: "Mr. Munson, I must tell you that I came to, this week--and this is
one of the things that I'm quite proud of--I came to this week, as a Democrat who
had many Republicans on this program, and we always had a mutually respectful
attitude, as evidence the fact that Bob Morris has been here many times through
the years, and I've not held with a great many of the things he said politically,
always a delight to have him here. But, I tell you, that the Democrats, this
week, have gotten me angrier than any group of people within my memory, when they
try to make political capital out of something that may destroy us all. And
the Russian attitude is not aimed at Democrats or Republicans or Liberals; but
all America.
"I had a guest here the other night, who on the one hand said--and I shan't
mention his name--who on the one hand said that he didn't want to make this a
political thing, and on the other hand, did his best to dig a great grave for
all of the people who were involved in it. It's been said here a thousand times ,
Mr. Munson, we don't act: we react. There is no Democratic, no Republican
license on haw to treat the Russians. Or our policies. All we do is react to
the things that they have done. And it couldn't make any difference whether
there's a Republican president or a Democratic president, Nikita Khrushchev still
could have torpedoed the Summit conference, and said the same tragic, insulting,
boorish things he did. And if politicians could just stop being politicians
for a minute and think cohesively we'd be in a lot better shape. Otherwise I
think we're doomed. We're absolutely doomed."
MUNSON: "Hear, Hear!"
GRAY: "Thank you, air. Tonight, in Chicago. I certainly am a fan of
Adlai Stevenson's; but I don't think this is any time for criticism. I think
this is a time for a little adhesive tape, getting together and finding out
where we go from here."
MORRIS: "I think you couldn't be more right, Barry. The problem is, we
have to begin awakening the American people to the lateness of the hour, and
the enormity of the threat. There are too many forces that make for complacency
here. Now I'd like to respectfully, differ with Lyle Munson, with whom I
rarely differ, in saying that he thinks that the events in the last two weeks are
going to arouse the people. Now I've been watching these reactions. I've been
waiting for them for years now. Each time there's a crisis coming along, we
think, well, this is it: the American people are going to wake up.
"I think that the greatest let-down that I experienced was at the time of
the Hungarian Revolution. Here was a people, 9,x,000 courageous people, rising
up with their bare hands, throwing off the Soviet conqueror. Here, this threatened
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to roll back the whole Soviet Empire. There was a mood of resistance everywhere.
And yet, the world within a few months was completely back to its normal complacent
self, And I think that if this enormous revolution--convolution--didn't do it,
I don't know whether anything's going to do it."
GRAY: "Bob Morris--if I may, Mr. Munson, just one quick point. We don't
have to go that far back. We merely have to look at the events of this last
week. Yesterday Nikita Khrushchev's naa.e was as bold. as could be on every
newspaper in New York. Do you know what was on the front pages this afternoon-
the indictment of seven disk jockeys. We are faced, possibly with the greatest
crisis the world has ever known; and our front pages today were concerned with
seven guys who are charged with taking some money to play records. Now I
certainly think that this is a news story. But not for page one, when what is
going on is going on."
DE ROCHEMENT: "Those were the afternoon papers, Barry?"
GRAY: "des, yes."
MUNSON: "Yes, but let us point out here that both parties have been
bringing the American people to this dance in the moonlight stage and love feast
with Khrushchev for a period of months and years. They brought us and built us
to this climax at the summit; and the climax blew up, and demonstrably. The
vocal leadership of both parties, which has been championing this, has proved
itself wrong; and the American people will understand that the leadership of
both of these parties brought us to this. It blew up in their faces; and we must
have a change in this policy now. I think that the people will understand if
the politicians do not. The politicians having committed themselves to this
philosophy, to this project, to this plan, may try to find some other strategem
for renewing this love feast; but the public will have had it."
GRAY: 'I'm afraid I go along with Bob Morris. I think that three days
from now, people will well, they're already talking about the possibility of
another summit meeting. Mr. Munson, the analogy has been used here, that we
are attempting to carry on negotiations with the Russians in a Cambridge-Eton-
Oxford spirit; and we're doing business with alley-fighters who make up their own
rules as they go along.
"Now, on the one level we're going to continue to talk and plan for a summit
meeting; and while we're talking at that level we're getting kicked in the
stomach; we're being belted in the groin; we're being double-talkedm cheated,
edged, knifed, gunned and all the rest. And we continue to say, well, don't hit
us again; we really want peace. I just wonder how long it's going to take
before we really wake up and start acting in the manner that this country has been
noted for through the years and by which we occupy our present position. I
firmly believe that flexing of the muscles is the only language these people
understand."
They talked about Morris's having been defeated in a New Jersey primary
election.
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GRAY: "I have a feeling that psychologically, .Robert Morris, most of the
people of the United States so desperately don't want war, that they want to
kind of brush it under the rug; and anything that reminds them of the disas-
trous consequences of a war like state is something they don't want to think about."
MUNSON: "Well, let me suggest, that if Bob Morris' primary day were two
weeks from now instead of four weeks ago, there would be a very different polling."
GRAY: "Well, it is the unfortunate politicians and performers and every-
thing else that get the bad timing."
MUNSON: "It may be that there are t hose in both parties who think that
we can renew negotiations at the summit; but I daresay that if you walk down
the street you will find very few people on the street who think we can do
business with this man."
GRAY: "Well, I'm very curious as to how this is going to show its
reaction at the national polls@ First of all, it's going to have its effect,
obviously, on the Democratic convention, And secondly, I'm -? it's going to
have a strong influence at the polls in November. I've felt-rand I've said
here--that this, I think, is going to react in favor of Richard Nixon. Its
my feeling that it is a political plum for him."
MORRIS: "I agree with you, Barry. I think that he's identified as the
man who stands up to Khrushchev. He's also identified as the man..."
GRAY: "Well, I don't go for that."
MORRIS: "Well, I mean he's identified with that. When he took on Khrushchev,
he gave a good account of himself.*
GRAY: "I think that Nikita Khrushchev has done him a great favor. He's
done Richard Nixon a great favor by showing distaste for him. And arithmetically,
the American people are going to say, well, if he hates him that much maybe
that's the fellow we ought to have.
"Mr. Munson, I saw you shaking your head."
MUNSON: HWell, as a fellow Republican of Bob's, and from New York State,
I think that it will work to Mr. Nixon's disadvantage., I see no advantage for
him in it.":
GRAY: "Who's advantage do you think..."
MUNSON: "He is identified with the ackninistration that within the last
year, following the death of John Foster Dulles, brought us to this summit
conference and blew it up in our faces.*
GRAY: "Do you believe that another Republican will take hisplace?"
MUNSON: "No, I think Mr. Nixon will be the candidate."
GRAY: "And be defeated?"
MUNSON: "That would be my estimate at this point."
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GRAY: "And who do you believe will be victorious?"
MUNSON: "The Democrats."
GRAY: "I know. But which one?"
MUNSON: "Probably Lyndon Johnson."
GRAY: "You think that Lyndon Johnson will be the Democratic candidate-
on what basis?"
MUNSON: "Well, he represents a more mature man than Mr. Kennedy who
would be the front-runner at this point, not so seemingly acceptable to Mr.
Khrushchev as Mr. Stevenson would appear to be from some of the comments in
Soviet press, and known to be a strong leader in the United States Senate-m
a father image, a leadership image."
GRAY: "I'm going to have the privilege of talking for another few minutes
with Mr. Robert Morris, the former counsel of the United States Senate Internal
Security Committee; Lyle Munson, formerly of the Central Intelligence Agency
of the United States Government, and now a book publisher; Mr. Louis Be Rochemont,
distinguished producer of many great American films and the producer of the new
Columbia film, "Man. on a String", the Borris Morris story, in which Ernest
Borgnine will star; and joining us is Jackie Robinson, whose biography,
'Wait Unitl Next Year' has just been published."
Barry Gray, Jackie Robinson and Robert Morris talked at some length about
the civil rights issue in the upcoming presidential campaign, about Jackie
Robinson's baseball history and about the progress made by the Negro in America.
GRAY: "Mr. Munson."
MUNSON: "Well, let me say this: I bow to no one in my admiration for what
Jackie Robinson has done both for baseball and for his people."
GRAY: "He can't run."
(LAUGHTER)
MUNSON: But I wish that Jackie to uld use some of this leadership, at this
point, to persuade his people and the entire nation that we are concerned at
this moment, fundamentally, with the civil rights of every living American in the
struggle with the Soviets, rather than the immeidate emphasis which we have
placed with the minority group, if he can exercise this kind of leadership."
GRAY: "Straighten that out for as a little bite"
ROBINSON: "Me too."
MUNSON: "Well, Itthink we are concerned in the struggle with:the Soviets
with preserving the liberties of every American."'
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GRAY: "Right."
MUNSON: "And our focus at t his point ought to be on that, and exclusively
on that, and now with what attitude any individual candidate is going to take
regarding civil rights and some one minority group."
GRAY: "Go ahead, there Jackie."
ROBINSON: "Yes. I agree, and I don't think youc an say that the Negro
in America has not had a great deal of concern for all of the people, This
is our main concern, I think. Whenever we are called upon we do an exceptional
Job. Or at least, we do the best that we possibly can, because of a great love
for our country. Every time that there's a crisis, we are ready and it lling
to give up anything that we have to support whatever is going on here in this
country. But I think, just as you say that we ought to think about all of the
people; I think it's time that more people start thinking about the minority
groups too, here in this country, There has not, in my opinion, been the
concern for the Negro here in this country. We're worried about Khrushchev.
We're worried about other nations. And yet, we are depriving ten per cent of our
population of the opportunity to serve as best we possibly can, it'
Jackie Robinson went on to defend the Negro's right to fight for minority
rights and thereby contribute a greater share to the country's total effort.
They briefly brought up anti-Semitism in the USSR, then got back to the
excessive blandness in U.S. Life and in the communications industry, Barry
Gray calling for more open opinion, more boat rocking.
GRAY: "I think that when the time comes when we stop criticising ourselves
and attempt to make ourselves stronger, we play right into the hands of the
opposition. Yes sir."
DE ROCHEMONP: "In making the picture, the Borris Morris..."
GRAYS "Somehow, I knew you'd get to it."
DE ROCHEMONT: "...we couldn't got permission from any government bureau
to use in our picture, the fact that we were conducting espionage against the
Soviets. So we had to form our own bureau in the thing. We called it the CBI,
the Central Bureau of Intelligence, instead of CIA. But we were not allowed
to do it. It's against the law to impersonate an agency."t
GRAY: "What of the motion picture industry, Mr. :De Rochement, and their
ability to wield such tremendous force. Look at how the propaganda wheels go
into action when we're at war, or developing this attitude. What effect do you
believe the motion picture industry would have on our thinking if they did some
true stories, based on fact, with regard to espionage ?-- like yours -- with
regard to the underground activities that take place all of the time, the great
threat that stands against us?"
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DE ROCHEMONTs "Well I know we took this picture out on preview and people
said, We just don't do it, Americans don't spy on other people." And if it
hadn't been for this break, they would have still thought that we weren't spying
on other people.
GRAY: "But actually, in effect--I think-.that Nikita Khrushchev is trying
to compare apples and oranges. There's a very great difference between the kind
of photographic reconnaisance that we were doing and the kind of thing that
Colonel Abel was convicted of, and the kind of thing the Rosenbergs were convicted
of."
DE ROCHEMONT: "Well, I hope we're doing that same sort of thing, I hope
we are."
GRAY: "Are we, Mr. Munson?"
MUNSON: ~I think the odds were about a thousand. to one against us, if
we had one man inside Soviet terrain, and one only."
GRAY: "No, but are we doing the kind of espionage that is being worked
against Us?"
MUNSON: "Oh, I'm sure that our government has not been asleep qt the
switch on this. Of course this is going on day and night on both sides. Our
survival will depend on it."
GRAY: "There's one thing that puzzles me. Never in history has a chief
of state taken the responsibility for his espionage. It's always kind of brushed
aside; and they leave the chief of state with clean hands. We never directly
accuse Nikita Khrushchev of having ordered the spy to do his work--even though
we know it comes from high authority."
MUNSON: "Nor did he admit."
GRAY: "Yes, why did our President rush into the breach, and say that he
knew about it, and so forth and so on?"
MUNSON: "I will never be able to understand that."~
GRAY: "Bob Morris."
MORRIS: "What, on that point? Well, that's just an extradrdinary thing,
Barry. Of course, that's the big thing that's being discussed everywhere today.
I read somewhere today that the President thought that he should come and make
a full disclosure, so that when they sat down attthe summit conference, that he
will have put all his cards on the table. Now, if that's the case, I don't
understand it. I don't agree with it. I don't--it wouldn't be the approach that
I'd take, There is a great difference in the world, a tremendous difference,
between being caught in an act of espionage and literally saying nothing-even
though the facts all scream out that this was an American espionage flight.
There's a lot of magic to just saying nothing about it, and letting it go and
by silence conceding that this was the case, than going through the formality
of technically acknowledging it. When you do the latter, then you've completely
cut off your own defense establishment."
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GRAY: "What effect do you think the United Nations hearing will have?"
MORRIS: "Well, I think it'll give the Soviets a sounding board for a
few days; but I don't think they'll be able to summon up the votes to....
certainly not in the Security Council."
MORRIS: "If they take it to the General Assembly, well, we can't tell.
The last time we had a real show-down test, there, the vote was 44 50 35,
I think the vote on admission of Red China. Roughly, that's the closest
they've come, though they've gained one or two seats since then."
GRAY: "Mr. Munson, do you believe that Nikita Khrushchev is merely a
pawn in this game, that he has been ordered to change the policy to a new
get-tough policy?"
MUNSON: "Oh no, I don't think he's a pawn at al:L. I think this is the
man in power. There are always rumblings within the Communist hierarachy,
in any bureaucracy as far as that's concerned. I see no evidence to suggest to
me that he is a pawn of anybody."
GRAY: " Do you think that the Chinese Reds have kind of needled him into
this new position?"
MUNSON: "Well, undoubtedly they brought pressures, and want to keep the
pressure on the United States, yes."
Robert Morris talked again about Cuba and the Monroe Doctrine's applic-
ability. Then Barry Gray brought up the idea of cultural exchanges with the
Soviet Union, Mr. Morris maintaining that it is unequal, that the Russians
gain from them, and we lose.
GRAY: "there's one very sad aspect, too, Mr. Morris that you've not
commented one--.every cultnural exchange Croup that comes over here has a spy
with it.,
MUNSON: "That's what I wanted to say. Let us put a CIA man in with each
troup where there NVD man is."
GRAY: "That's quid pro quo."
MORRIS: "Oh, I agree."
DE ROCHEMONT: "I also think they do.'"
MUNSON: "I think they do, I'm not sure t hat we do."
GRAT: "I'm sure they do."
DE ROCHEMONT: "No, don't you think the CIA does it? There's something
lacking if they don't."
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 Approved For Release 1999/09/07 : CIA-RDP75-00001 R000200350014-3
CPYRGHT
Barry had a long distance conversation, via beeperphone, with Mr.
Hans Rauchning the editor of a Berlin newspaper, Der Abend. Barry Gray then bid
his guests goodnight.
GRAY: "Lyle Munson, formerly a member of the Central Intelligence Agency;
Robert Morris, the former Counsol of the United States Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee; and Jackie Robinson, whose new book 'Wait Until Next -Tear', a
biography, has been published."
Approved For Release 1999/09/07 : CIA-RDP75-00001 R000200350014-3