MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: Library of Congress
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
• Release Decision: RIPLIM
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 31
• Document Creation Date: January 11, 2017
• Document Release Date: December 8, 2010
• Sequence Number: 7
• Publication Date: July 6, 1973
• Content Type: CABLE

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B?144) NAPA Ds
THE WHITE HOUSE
WA SHINGTON
l'AEMORAI?TIltiM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS:
DATE, TIME &
PLACE:
USA
Henry A. Kissinger
Assistant to the President
for National Security Affairs
Brent Scowcroft
Deputy Assistant to the President
for National Security Affairs
Lawrence S. Eagleburge
Deputy Assistant to the President
for National Security Council
Operations
PRC Ambassador Huang Chen
Mr. Chi (interpreter)
July 4, 1973 - 10:00 a.m.
Dr, Kissinger's Office
Western White House
Apiba sado?, Hulk I am very happy to see you here.
Dr. Kissinge e are very happy to have you here though I must
apologize for the weather.
You will meet people at the dinner tonight who no longer exist in the
PRC. I have selected them for their impact on U.S. life. They have
public influence and will talk for two years about their meeting with
you. Danny Kaye will be there. He is a great Chinese cook. Remem-
ber if he mentions it tonight that I told you of his love for China and
his great ability as a Chinese cook.
iiril)assa,do; AtAnji.: I want to thank you for the many fine arrangements
at have been made for my trip. It is timely that I come now; a week
from now I would not be able to make it. I have just received instruc-
tions to return to Peking for a period of time. I will probably be there
to welcome you when you arrive.
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Dr, ng4 you leave people will begin to suspect that things
may be ia.per$ng. I will look forward to seeing you in Peking. I am
now proposing to you that I arrive in Peking on August 6, and stay for
three or four days.
beqsador fluvig: So far as we can tell, the reports of your prospective
visit to Peking came from here. We know some foreign press agencies
in Peking reported on your possible visit, but nothing came from our
Government. (Interruption for a few moments as Mrs. Huang entered
the r
Dr. Kissingtr, We have reports that my friend, the Vice Minister,
has been talking to some diplomats. But he did it under some provo
c
a
-
tion. It is all right; we don't object.
Ambapsador nuant4: I don't know of
Dr.Kissinger: it is better for your
improves their disposition.
nythi
along those lines.
they are surprised. It
A : We would e you any time.
*a$1.1?, ell, we s.rted the reports here;it is our fault.
d August 6 be allright?
AmbassadoF guutg: I will report back borne. You sai
four days?
Dr. Kis inger:
day.
Ambassador
fo
ee or
haps three and, if necessary, I will stay a fourth
would, of course, be up to you,
go ? We can settle that later if we agree to a starting date.
ador Huang.: I will report immediately. Since I Leave on the
Hsu can report back to you, if there is word.
Dt. r: We should announce it soon ince the speculation jg so
great.
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a
einger How
120ther suggestion.
ssadpr Huang: I will report both dates. (Huang then talked at
some length in Chinese with Mr. Chi.)
en Would you like to announce ?
the 12th? We can wai
the 16th if you
pr. Kissinger: Before MT. Chi translates, let me ask a question.
Is the Ambassador a Genera
Arnag.ba Certa.
at,p_ALls'ageti. That's what I thought but someone argued with inc that
you were not.
Aitnbas;a
or
same profession as General Scowcroft.
Dr. Kiasinger One thing I have noticed about the U.S. Army is that
there are very, many intelligent colonels and very few intelligent generals.
I have been watching for Scovicroft's deterioration ever since he was
promoted to General.
Ambassador kivarig: From the standpoint of generals, I can say that
there should be more intelligent generals. As you know, we have
removed all ranks in our army.
KissArater: The General's union. I
late, Mr. Chi.
ve you a chance to
Ambassador Hullo: While we are on the subj ct of speculation, let me
discuss the visit of Prime Minister Chou En-Lai to the U. S. There
has been a great deal of speculation in the press, including one report
on June 27 from San Clemente that the Prime Minister might consider
a visit to the Western White House since it would not be so detrimental
to our "principled stand."
Kissinger: You must understand that we had nothing
those stories.
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Arnbassador ?rang: The U.S. side must understand that it still has
relations with the Chiang group. Last year a message of congratula-
tions was sent to Chiang from President Nixoniand the Chiang group
still has an embassy in Washington. Under these conditions, how would
it be possible for our Prime Minister to visit the U.S. ? A visit to San
Clemente would only be using the side door or the back door. I should also
tell you that the Prime Minister has no plans to visit the UN.
Dr. Kissinger: The stories did not come from us. We have always.
officially denied them.
AiribaSeaclor Huang: My personal recommendation that beneficial
when Ziegler says there are no grounds for such speculation, as he
recently did.
Dr. Kissinger: That's our position. As the President has said, he is
willing to visit China again, But it would be difficult for us when there
is o intermediate meeting It would have eased matters if
something took place between the first Presidential visit to Peking and
the next Presidential visit, /Which we are prepared to do in 1974.
Attiba.s.13.4#40..Huairi)0. This can be discussed in Peking.
Dr. K4singer.Yet4., we Will stop all speetilation.ithe .meantime.
How:should we ?proceed? We have a number of concrete.. problems
diSCUSS. kWankto review the .BreelmeV Visit and one pa rticular-MaAte r
,arising from ito Further; there :,are Cambodia. .Korea, and a numbe..r
of minor things*.
Amba ssaclo.r iian Vii finish up and then listen to you. The other
thing I. want to discuss is Cambodia. I have a paper here to give you.
(Hands over paper, text of which follows.)
Chinese side informed the U.S, side earlier that as Samdech
adorn Sihanouk was visiting in Africa and Europe, it Was yet
sible for the Chinese side to communicate to him U.S.
tentative thinking on a settlement of the Cambodian question.
Although the Chinese side had informed the U.S. side that nego a
tions between Samdech Sihanouk and the Phnom Penh traitorous
clique would be impossible, the U.S. side nevertheless openly
refused to negotiate with Samdech Sihanouk, which enraged him all the
more. However, according to news reports U.S. government
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officials have recently made some disclosures on this question,
which have given rise to various speculations. At the same time,
it is learned that the LOA Nol clique has gone to the length of
spreading the rumour that the Phnom Penh authorities will enter
into official negotiations with the National United Front of Cambodia
very soon, with the United States and the Chinese Communists
serving as go-betweens. In spreading such utterly groundless
assertions, the Lon Nol clique liarbours ulterior motives, widely
attempting to confuse public opinion and forestall the settlement of
the Cambodian question. The Chinese side is of the view that such
a turn of events is extremely disadvantageous to seeking a settle -
=lent of the Cambodia= question and will even cause trouble. The
Chinese side cannot but bring this to the serious attention of the
U.S. side."
sador
d to Peking.
Dr,
sage was? received before Prince Sihanouk
( e d' parer) He is certainly enraged.
.fmarba.al
Since you always indicated in the past that you
didn't want to talk to him, he is angry.
pr. Icissinge : Yes, but you have received several communica
us. These were before his return to Peking.
01
rom
Ambassador Huatsg; Now that Sinahouk has returned Peking, we will
hand over your thinking to him.
Kissinger : I gather he had not received this by the time of his
arrival.
Am)Assador By the lookaof it, no.
Dr. Kissinger: I did notknow that the Prime " ter could speak
French.
Amba
dp,r Rua
: He was in France,
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Dr, Kiss
about us.
6
forgotten. He made some comments in French
Let me give you our view on Cambodia First, we canno.t control
what the L011 Nol people are saying. But they do not know what we have
said to you; the proposals we have made to you. It is just speculation
on their side.
t to speak frankly. What we have proposed to you a ceasefire,
necessary for only 90 days, we believe takes care of the situation.
ve no interests in Cambodia? other than what the Prime Minister
said to Ambassador Bruce the first time he saw him. This is our
objective. We have no objection -- in fact, we would, welcome it -
the Govermi?ient in Phnom Penh is on very friendly terms with Peking
and would refuse to participate in great power hegemonial activities
in Southeast Asia.
As I have expressed before, it 18 a delicate problem for us as to how
to manage the transition. If we are pushed into an undignified position,
it will only strengthen the farces in this country who will oppose other
things we may judge it necessary to do over the next three or four years.
we think it important that the matter in Cambodia be ended in a way
necessarily wounding for the U.S. We take great care not to embar-
rass you publicly. We really think it is not in our interest to create a
situation which is unnecessarily difficult for either side.
Ambassador Mau: I will report this to my Government. Our attitude
has already been made clear by the Prime Minister to Ambassador Bruce.
As the Prime Minister said, all sides should respect Cambodia's sovereignty.
We cannot negotiate about Cambodia. That must be between you, those now
in power in Phnom Penh, and Sihanouk.
Dr, Kissinger: Were not asking to negotiate with you, but we have made
suggestions as the basis for a solution. If the Prince proposes a cease-
fire before my arrival we could stop bombing, and then reach a solution
satisfactory to everyone's needs.
Anabassador Huang.L. It is up to the Prince. It is
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to predict.
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d'overnme
Dr. Kiss*
but our thinkingcould be mentioned to him.
I can only report. It depends thereafter on my
Of course.
Ambassador?,iXgaza The Prince said a great deal at the al
Si
a days.
to our Congri
I know. The guns have been going off all over Peking
e Prime Minister, for example, made some remarks
rational delegation the other day.
Ambassador Huang: I have not seen this.
Dr. Itissiulker: I'm not criticizing. He bra
hit us yet.
Ambes4ado g;
U8 , but he hasn't
d anything this.
Dr. Kissinger: No? What he said was in the spirit of what you said
before. It was new to the Congressmen, but not to us.
Let me say a few words about Brezhnev. I take it rather seriously.
I want to tell it to you as it happened. I want first to discuss our con-
versations about China. Brezhnev sought for a week to see the President
without me.
Ambassador Flpa fir. You are a dangerous man.
Dr. Kigiflgr Brezhnev is persistent but not subtle. He did see the
President for about 30 minutes alone at Camp David. His comments about
China were not favorable1 but you may know that. But on the last day
on Saturday rezhnev had three hours with the President at which I
was present. We talked: about Chine at great length. It was his initiative.
During the first part of the meeting he violently attacked the Chinese
leadership and gave us his explanation of the Lin Pia? affair. I won't
discuss that unless you want me to.
Ambassador Huang,: It's up to you.
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Dr. Kissinger.; It was in that context that he told us about the non-
aggression treaty about which you had already informed us. He said
he would publish it at a suitable interval after his return as an example
of the bellicosity of the PRC.
On Lin Piao, the only thing that may be of interest is that he said he
would be prepared to let us see their investigative report. We said
we were not interested,
He then discu sed a number of tbt:..gs. He said it would be intolerable
to imagine a Chinese nuclear capability in 15 years equal to what the
Soviets have today. This, he sal& would be intolerable and unaccept-
ble to the USSR. He suggested we cooperate on this problem, as he
had hinted at Zavidovo, Now he was making a formal and more explicit
proposal.
He proposed as well that the U.S. and ussa begin exchanging information
on your nuclear program.. We said we would not exchange military
information and were not interested. Brezhnev then asked if we are
prepared to exchange other information on China. We said we could
not make one country the subject of regular exchanges. They could
always tell us what they had on their minds, but we would make no such
undertaking. Brezhnev then said he expected our relations with you to
improve, and that they could not object to this. But if military arrange-
ments were made between the U. S. and the PRC, this would have the
most serious consequences and would lead the Soviets to take drastic
measures. Those were the key points.
They asked if we were planning any military arrangements. We replied
three times that we have nude 110 military arrangements, but we said
nothing about the future. We do this as a question of principle. Neither
of os "met any plans along these lines, but we don't believe the Soviets
can tell us with whom we can have arrangements.
The meeting was between Brezhnev, the President, myself, and the
Soviet interpreter. We have told no one in our Government of this
conversation. It must be kept totally secret. We have not told Ambassador
Bruce, but I would have no objection if, when you return, you talk to
Ambassador Bruce about it. But no one else should be present.
hassador Huang: I wont say anything to Bruce. You discuss it
when you are there. As for us, as the President said to me last tim
the Chinese side is very careful
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Dr. singer: Br zlniev told us that only those in the room would
hear of this conversation. But that evening, Gromyko asked to see
me and asked what I thought of the Breshnev conversation. (laughter)
He asked if I understood Brezhnev's proposal about Mina.. I said that
I understood it to have something to do with military arrangements
between us. Gromyko then said I had misunderstood. Brezhnev not
only meant military arrangements, but also political arrangements
directed against the USSR. I asked what was meant by political arra
ments, and who determined whether they were directed against the
USSR. Grornyko was very evasive. / then called his attention to the
Shanghai Communique and told him that we had an understanding not t
make agreements directed at other parties.
y impression that. the Soviet Union was quite
tters we discussed previously, They wer
and brutal than I would have thought sthle
Under these
each
ion
Soviet
is absurd.
ions about some
more openly brazen
auditions we think it is very important that we understand
d what our intentions are. Your Prime Minister men-
or Bruce that you think 'Attit' Ow event of a Sino-
would
give arms and supplies to the Soviet Union. That
e have no interest in supporting the stronger against the weaker..
Ambassador H
ttlk:
The Prim.e Minister said that?
Dr. KissAliger: (Reading from Ambassador Br 's cable of June 26)
"In the beginning, the U. S. would maintain a position of non-involvement,
but give military supplies to the 'USSR. Then, after waiting until China
had dragged out the USSR for a period of time, the U. S. would strike
the Soviets from behind. "
china was attacked by the USSR, we would certainly cut off all credits
to the Soviets. The second part of the Prime Ministe.rts remarks might
be true, but certainly not the first part. Under no circumstances would
give military or other supplies to the Soviets if they attacked the PRC.
ould certainly cut off all economic ties, but we don't know whether
that would be enough.
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10
We must do the maximum we can to deter an attack on China. I used the
Nuclear Agreement in a press conference to say that no attack on China
would be 'conceivable that would not threaten peace and security. There
would have been an unbelievable uproar in the Congress without the
Agreement. So don't attack the Agreement too much. Give us a chance to
use it in the one way we want. I think we have out-maneuvered your allies
on this one.
I have set up a very secret group of four or five of the best officers I
can find to see what the IL S. could do if such an event occurred. This
will never be publicly knowri. I tell it to you in the strictest confidence.
The group is only being formed this week. I talked to the Chairman of
the ICS about it when he was here this week. I am prepared to exchange
views on this subject if it can be done in. secret.
Further, I have talked to the French Foreign Minister about our interest
in strergthening the PRC. We will do what we can to encourage our allies
to speed up requests they receive from you on items for Chinese defense,
In particular, you have asked for some Rolls Royce technology. Under
existing regulations we have to oppose this, but we have worked out a
procedure with the British where they will go ahead anyway. We will
take a formal position in opposition, but only that. Don't be confused
by What we do publicly. In the future, now that we have our military
establishment understanding the problem, we can handle these problems
in a different way.
n I come to Peking I think we should discuss this complex
er seriously. That is, how we can do the maximum to det
attack without providing an excuse to undertake it.
iseu
an
You above all should understand what our policy is. If we wanted to
cooperate with the USSR, then we would not have to be so complicated.
We are trying to gain time and be in a position for maximum resistance
should it happen. This is our position. must say that we considered our
discussions with the Soviets quite ominous.
Araba ador Huang: I will report to my Government. As to the tJS-Soviei
Nuclear Agreement, I have already told you our position.
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pr. sner Z know. It does not give us a
be worse f you supported the Agreement.
our position. But don't tell our Congressmen
paper. We want to use it. You can criticize it
ii
at pain. It would
you to understand
title just a scrap of
n other ways.
Ambassador
Our Prime j:(nise r
aid that?
Pr. Kissinger; Our newspapers so report. As I have said, we don't
object to criticism. The Soviets would ..think something was wrong
otherwise.
Ambassador Huang: Our experience has been that it means nothing to
the Soviets when they sign a paper.
. Dr. Kiseinge I UnderiStilint4,, ?purpose is in terms ol our own
problems;.
on china
:n the absence
to sarithis.,:.:::relatively quietly,
have '''ttalk:,,to the-prass,,now.... 'Igha. should I say about our meeting?
That We ?had,..a. review of the situation, and that we had a..:.::,friendly talk?
Nothing more specific? Do they know you are returning to :China?
o impact on the Russians. But if I had said an attack
?atened the U. S there would have been a major uproar
Agreement. But with the Agreement it was possible
Ambassad.or.Huang: Not yet.
D. fci.ssinger; The press will
are returning to China.
A121,1)44do; 114
returning to report.
say I have upset you so much you
Others will say that I am 8.0 happy
r alc for meeting with the press and the Preside
Kissing I have just had a report from Ambassador Bruce about
the Prime Minister's meeting with the Congressmen. He did sayvkat
reported, but he was provoked by our side. He did not volunteer his
comments, they insisted on raising it. We understand that he has no
choice but to express his view when asked. Then the Senators repeated
it to the newsmen.
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Our Congressmen do not have a capacity for keeping confidential
information, and Senator Magnuson knows nothing about foreign polii
which makes it worse. We will have a chance to deal with it in our
channels.
1.
We have tow you ourviews on Korea. I supposethe Prime Minister
Will discuss it with me when I get there.
Atabaseador Huang: Did Dr. Kissinger e what our Prime ste
said about Korea at the Mali 'reception. He supported Kim LI Sang's
5 points,
Dr, K,ipsinger: Yes, but that was a general statement. Now, ho
we have to decide how we will des,
UNC over the coming years.
Arnbass
with specifics UNCURK and the
ng: You can discuss this in Peking.
Dr. Ki er; Yon mentioned in an earlier conversation the possibility
of an exchange of chancery sites. It is complicated legally, but we would
be prepared to facilitate an exchange when you are ready.
Arabassath Huang: lam grateful for your concern. I wanted to dis-
cuss the general problem at a convenient time anyway. An exchange
of property for a chancery is not an immediate problem, but I do need
to ask your help now in obtaining an office building.
We have located 4 houses near each other near S Street and Massa-
chusetts Avenue. We have looked over hotels but find that they will not
work. Now we have learned that office work is not possible in the area
where the 4 'houses are located because of zoning restrictions. So we
have 2 requests.
First, can you help us find an office building near the 4 houses? We
would then use the 4 houses as residences. The houses are located at
1) 2230 $ Street (to be used as the Ambassador's Residence); 2) 2200
S Street; 3) 2301 S Street; 4) 2339 S Street.
Second, can we get permission to use these houses for offices? We
had been dealing with the Ramada Inn but when they heard we were i:nteresl
they raised their priceo and are now asking far too much. So, can we find
a small hotel or apartment (50 roorris or so) for our office work and for
some of our staff to live in?
TOR SRET/SENSITIVE
.113(CIATSII,F4Y EYES 011LY,,
No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
.DEQ..ASJ No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
Authority V i
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T/SENSITrvz
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13
D. Kissinger: We will try two things: First, to get the zoning regula-
tions removed from one of the buildings you have already found. Second,
if that is not possible, we will see if we can find some small office building
for your use.
Ambassa
finding
we would still like,
of 50 rooms or so.
poe ibl
your
issi.nger We will do what we can. We are not well equipped for
of this sort, but we -will do What we can.
mbassa.or Rua/1g: If any of the Rockefellers have real state nearby,
we would appreciate their help.
Dr. KS singer: I was thinking precisely along those lines.
About my trip. I had thought of going to Hong Kong to get used to the
time change, and then coming in from Hong Kong. Does this cause
any problems?
,Arnbas ador 1: am sure not. Ambassador Bruce stayed there
several days. You should, too. Stay as long as you like. If you want
to contact any of our people in Hong Kong, feel free to do so.
Dr. Kis ow about your conversation with Secretary Butz.
We will cooperate as much as we can on your purchase of agricultural
products. You should know that Brezhnev proposed a five year agree-
ment of 5 million tons of grain per year for five years. We agreed in
principle, but went no further.
Ambassador Hang: Yes, I had a good discussion with Secretaries Butz
and Dent. Both took a very positive attitude toward the development of
relations.
r Kissinger: If you ever encounter bureaucratic problems, let my
ffice know. You will get sympathetic treatment from us.
Ambassador Huang: Secretary Butz mentioned the possibility of having
officers in charge of agriculture in each Liaison Office. I have put this
proposal to my Government. Personally, it looks sensible to me.
TOP St CRET/SENSITIVE
EXCLUSIVELY EYES ONLY
No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
DECLASSurfw"
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Author4
Biezi,A) NA Da
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$ Olt414
SANITIZE)
14
g to invite you to a Sky- -Lab
gather that you will not be back in time.
Arab" or Ituang: Maybe I could be invited
n from Peking.
pr. lia4nger: We would be glad to have Mr. Hari Reu. But perhaps it
would be better to wait for your return.
biattedor Ittaiity It would be better to wait. With my absence Ran
u will he quite busy probably would not be able to leave town.
sixtgsr: Some of our Governors feel they might like to visit the
eo Republic of China, too. But we will work this out in other
channels.
Arabaseadqr Zinging; The Majority Lieader of
estimated to me recently that too many An*
seof Representatives
U want to visit China.
I want to e *maize again that our bitter experience with the Russians
has lead us to a position where we do not believe in any. ' treaties or
agreements made with them.
Qr. Kissinger: We have no it Edens about the Russians, The trick
is to seem to be a fool without being one.
,AXXIbasSier Hug:; You are certainly very good at it. Brezhnev looks
on Dr. Kissinger as a dangerous man.
NSITIVE
Y EYES ONLY
SANITIZED COPY,
No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
DEC "1"1
No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5
Audi f7,:>
By NARA Da
Sc
so far as the
trip They:
1rkc,
it U you an find sometbi
use one of ouruidinga for consul
mg again. I would appreciate
a I mentioned. We would
r work and one for cultural activities.
There would be no outward sign of the purposes of these buildings. In
other words, we really need two buildings for office purposes. We want
to respect'yourlawS but hope something can be done,. Also, we would
not want any of our buildings to be within sight of the Chiang Embassy.
Dr. Kiss
(Break)
we can.
No Objection to Declassification in Part 2010/12/08: LOC-HAK-462-6-7-5