FACE THE NATION

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP99-00498R000300010013-7
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 17
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 28, 2007
• Sequence Number: 13
• Publication Date: October 22, 1978
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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CBS NEWS
2020 M Street, N.
W.
Washington, D. C.
20036
FACE THE NATION
as broadcast over the
CBS Television Network
and the
CBS Radio Network
Sunday, October 22, 1973 -- 11:30 AM1 - 12:00 Noon, EDT
Origination: Washington, D. C.
GUEST: ADM. STANSFIELD TURNER
Director, Central Intelligence Agency
REPORTERS:
George Herman, CBS News
Norman I:empster, The Los Angeles Times
Fred Graham, CBS News
Producer: Mary O. Yates
Associate Producer: Joan Barone
EDITORS: All copyright and right to copyright in this transcript
and in the broadcast are owned by CBS. Newspapers and periodicals
are permitted to reprint up to 250 words of this transcript for the
purpose of reference, discussion or review. For permission to reprint
more than this, contact Director, CBS News Information Services,
524 West 57 Street, New York, N. Y. 10019 [phone].
STAT
THIS IS RECYCLED PAPER
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HERMAN: Admiral Turner, the SALT talks on strategics arms
limitation are reaching a crucial point. At the same time, we're
approaching a trial of a former C-A official or agent, or whatever
you want to call him employee in any case-- who is reputed to have
sold to the Soviet Union a manual on one of our major satellites
which detects the movement of Soviet arms and ammunition. Is this
likely to threaten the progress of the SALT talks now approaching
their conclusion:
ADM, TURNER? Any loss of important intelligence information is
a serious problem for our country. But at the same time, the talks
are at. such a delicate stage today with Secretary Vance this very
day in. Moscow, I think it would be inappropriate for me to talk
about specific details that could be misinterpreted there, because
none of us would want us on this show, in any way, to prejudice those
talks. Let me say to you, however, that we in the intelligence
community are very much a part of developing the United States SALT
position. In short, we are asked regularly if we propose this, or
we accept that, would you, the intelligence community be able to
verify it. And tie give very forthright and complete answers to our
negotiators on that. So I believe that our verification interests
are taken into account most fully by the people doing the actual
negotl:ations.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News, Washington, a spontaneous and un-
rehearsed news interview on FACE THE NATION, with the Director of
Central. Intelligence, Admiral Stansfield Turner. Admiral Turner
will be questioned by CBS News Correspondent Fred Graham; by Norman
Kempster, Washington reporter for the Los Angeles Times; and by CBS
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News Correspondent, George Herman.
HERMAN; Admiral Turner, I'm not exactly sure that I understood
all of your first answer about the question of giving the, selling
the Soviet Union details on an American spy satellite, and how it
will affect the SALT talks. But let me ask you in this form-- are
you sanguine about the outcome of the SALT talks, that we will get
a treaty in a reasonable time now?
ADM. TURNER: I think there's a very good prospect of that, but
one can't ever be confident in something as delicate as this because
both nations' vital interests are at stake.
KEMPSTER: If we could look a little bit more at the question
of selling the satellite-- there is an indictment against a--.man who
had been with the CIA for only about 8 months, had a_.relativgly
low-level job. How is it possible that someone whose loyalty and
judgment have not been fully tested can come in contact with major
secrets of this sort?
Central Intelligence Agency
ADM. TURNER: The stock in trade of the / is highly classified
information. On each of our desks, almost all the papers that pass
by daily must be very highly classified. Yet, I would certainly
say to you that after an accusation such as been made that somebody
carried off a sensitive document, we have checked and reviewed, and
tightened our security procedures. At the same time, because we
have so much classified information, we can tie ourselves in knots
and not be able to get our work done if we over-control. So we al-
ways are drawing a fine line between how much control we can practi-
cally exercise, and how much we absolutely must in order to ensure
security.
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GRAHAM: Admiral, can I ask you about classified information on
another level, and that has to do with the upcoming trial of former
acting FBI Director, Pat Gray, and two others. It's been in the press
in the.- last week that the CIA and the other intelligence agencies
are-- have raised a problem of so called third agency rule, infor-
mation that was obtained, as I understand it, mostly from overseas.
And now the judges ordered that to be released to the defense and
that the trial may have to be aborted because of that. Is there
any danger that the trial of Pat Gray will have to be aborted for
that reason?
ADM. TURNER: The CIA is not withholding information here. The
stories in the press to this end are totally incorrect. At the
same time, let me assure you that I bear a responsibility any time
it is necessary to release classified information in the courts,
to advise the Attorney General and perhaps the President of what
damage might occur to the national security interest if that infor-
mation were released. You know, I am required by the law of our
country to protect sensitive intelligence information. And, therefore,
I would not be doing my job if I didn't make the dangers to the
country known about the release of classified information.
GRAHAM: But specifically here -- isn't it true that the judge
has ordered the release to the defense of certain documents, and that
you have said there is an agreement with foreign nations not to re-
lease it.
ADM. TURNER: We are not withholding anything from the FBI at
this time.
HERMAN: Let me take you back for just a moment. I don't know
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if you finished with that subject, but I was not finished with the
trial of Ilr. Kampiles on--or however you pronounce his name---on
the sale -W if there was a sale -- of the manual on the spy satellite
to the Soviet Union. !Ire Kampiles, as best I recall, was a GS-7, which
is a very low rank in the government. He--that's sort of the equiva-
lent of a clerk, although he was a watch officer. My interpretation
of your answer was -- to the question -- was, this is something that
happens and you have to walk a tightrope between being too care-
ful and not careful enough. Are you sayin(j that the CIA did nothing
wrong in this case where Hr. Kampiles was able to get his hand
on this highly classified -- not just classified -- but as I understand
it, highly classified manual?
ADII. TURNER: I'm saying that we have reviewed our security
procedures, and we have found some areas where we have since tightened
up. One always finds something like this, I'm afraid, but I feel
that the basic security procedures were satisfactory.
HERMAN: Satisfactory at the time that he stole this?
ADI1, TURNER: Yes. I mean, I believe that his duties made it
quite reasonable for him to have access to this document at that
time.
KETRPSTER: How long was the manual missing before you discovered
it was gone?
ADT1. TURNER: I'm unable to respond to a question like that,
as I'm sure you well appreciate. The case of 17T. Kampiles is
coming up for trial in the courts on the 31st of this month, and for
me to discuss details which are appropriate to that trial here would
possibly prejudice the case in the court.
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KEMPSTER: I think it not only goes to the case; it also goes
to the security procedures of the CIA, which you were talking about.
Is it possible that such a manual could be missing for some time
without you knowing about it?
ADM. TURNER- Yes, it is possible for some time. There are
certain proscribed procedures for when documents have to be inventoried
and this document was within those procedures.
GRAHAM: There's been some speculation recently that there
might be a hidden foreign agent within our intelligence community,
and that the CIA has made some efforts to determine if that's true.
Is there a hidden agency there, and are you trying to find out if
that's true?
ADM. TURNER: I have no knowledge or indications that there is
a mole, a secret agent, inside the Central Intelligence Agency. But
for me to sit here and tell you that I was utterly confident there
was none would be foolish. I must be constantly on guard to check,
and to find out, and to question whether there is some penetration
of our important agency. We know of none at this time, but we're
constantly looking, we're constantly being vigilant. That's the
only way to prevent it.
GRAHAM: Well, can I ask you about this' There was a published
story lately that in the course of that, you passed out some misin-
formation among very high levels within our intelligence community,
and later detected that it popped up in a hostile country.
ADM. TURNER- That story is one of the best cases of misinfor-
mation I know of. That's totally false.
HERMAN: In the course of Mr. Kampiles trial--this is a sort of
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a legal question I think, rather than a CIA question, and perhaps you
can address yourself--
ADM. TURNER! It may be difficult, but go ahead.
HERMAN; Well, my question is really sort of basic to this kind
of case. If he's hideously guilty, how can the prosecution prove it
without submitting some of the secret documents that are presumably
under CIA control? If he's blissfully innocent, how can he prove
it without access to some of the documents under your control? Aren't
we sort of in a bind here in this kind of case?
ADM. TURNER: Absolutely. This is the problem we've discussed
already-- as to making a judgment in each court case as to what
classified information can be released. when does the interest of
prosecution of a possible offender of our laws warrant releasing
material that may damage our national interest? And in each case,
that judgment has to be made separately. And it is not my judgment
to make it--it's the Attorney General or possibly the President.
HERMAN: Has the court, or any officer of the court, in this
case, called you or the CIA or asked for
in discovery procedure
or anywhere else, any of the documents involved?
ADM. TURNER: You're leading me back exactly to where I said
I could not go in discussing the particular case before the courts.
KEMPSTER: Do you have any suggestions for the way that the
government can deal with cases of people who are accused of real
crimes, and who seek to--seek documents that you can't declassify
and, therefore, get the cases dismissed?
ADM. TURNER: No I don't see any real relief to that. I really
don't. I think that's part of our judicial process in this country,
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and in each case, we have to weigh the values and the risks-- and
we're doing that regularly, and I think that it generally comes out
very well.
HERYIAN- Let me get you out of the courts here.
ADM. TURNER- Fine.
TIERZATN- There's a good deal of news coming into this country
from Iran, which is one of our major oil suppliers. A good deal
of trouble has been happening, and a good dial of conflict. The
question I suppose, the first question to ask is whether the CIA
detects any Soviet influence behind these, any Soviet movement to
move in and take advantage of these, anything of that sort?
AD71, TURNER- I think the position of the Shah of Iran is in
today is a very difficult one. He's been trying, genuinely, to
liberalize, to modernize his country over quite a period of time now.
In recent months, he's met considerable resistance from the con-
servative right wing elements of his own country. As a result,,
however, the left wing small nucleus of Communists has tried to take
advantage of this, and to use the disturbances from the right for
their own particular advantage. I'm sure there's some Soviet in-
fluence behind it in one degree or another, but I think it's an
opportunism taking advantage of a genuine dissent within the country
at the direction the Shah is going.
HERMAN: Specifically, do you see any Soviet--new Soviet money--
any new Soviet agents, moving in to expand and to use this bridge-
head.
ADLI. TURNER: No, I haven't seen that, and I'm pleased that
the Shah is continuing with his liberalization efforts, and as
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you know, the big event will be next June when he's promised and he's
sticking to his promise of free elections for his parliament. It's
a very important moment for him and for us.
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GRAHAMMM: Admiral Turner, have you had--ever since the story came
out a couple of weeks ago about the Soviet defector Schevchenko living
a life of wine, women and song, partly as a CIA source, have you had an
upsurge of offers of defection from the Soviet Union and from other
places?
ADTI. TURNER: Well, I'm not--Iem not free to discuss that, Fred,
but I do want to make clear that the Central Intelligence Agency in
no way, directly, indirectly, provided funds for the purpose of pro-
viding female companionship for Ambassador Schevchenko. But I do want
to recognize that the CIA is the agency of our government responsible
for handling defectors, for helping them to transition to a normal,
self-supporting life in our country. We?ve been doing that for the
ambassador, and it?s worked out very well. He?s a fine man.
KEMPSTER! How does the CIA decide which defectors it?s going to
put on some sort of a subsidy or stipend, particularly in this case,
when the man apparently had substantial means of his own?
ADM. TURNER; We look at the good old American principle of free
enterprise. We reward people for their deeds, not in accordance with
their needs, as is the communist slogan.
KEMPSTER: Well, then, can we--
ADM. TURNER: In short, the value of the--the value to the country
of what he?s doing with us and for us is our measure of remuneration.
KEAIPSTER: Well, can we conclude, then, that he brought rather
substantial information with him when he defected?
ADP. TURNER: You know that he is the highest level defector from
the Soviet Union to our country; you know how difficult it is just to
understand a country like the Soviet Union, where the borders are
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closed, the communications are controlled, and therefore helping to
understand and interpret that type of a difficult society is a very
valuable asset to use
GRAHA#1o Sir, you spoke of misinformation a minute ago,, and I
think there's some more misinformation that has been published that
you may help straighten out for use It has been published that the
FBI has been investigating the death of John Paisley, the former CIA--
AD#t, TURNER- That's totally incorrect. I talked to the Director
of the FBI as recently as yesterday on that, and he has assured me for
the umpteenth time that they are not involved in the Paisley investi-
gation.
GRAHAM- Now does that mean that you are satisfied, and the FBI
is satisfied, that he was a suicide and was not murdered?
ADM o TURNER z I'm standing on the fine statement by the Maryland
State Police yesterday that they see no evidence of foul play here.
It's their job to investigate this, not ours.
GRAHAM; Sir, briefly taking you back into the areas of the
courts, at the Justice Department, as I understand it, Attorney Gen-
eral Bell has a new policy, although it hasn't been openly announced-
and that is that he will prosecute any foreigner caught, as he calls,
being a spy in this country, if the person is not covered by diplomatic
immunity. Now as I understand it, the rules of the game in the intel-
ligence world had always been, you usually just kick the people out of
the country. Has Attorney General Bell changed the rules of the game,
and is this likely to bring retaliation against some of your agents
in other countries?
AD#A, TURNER. What you call the rules of the game were the facts
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of the game previously, because in most cases, people we have caught
spying in this country have had diplomatic passports. Those who do not---
and in this case it was just a flagrant violation of the privilege of
being in our country as employees of the United Nations that these two
Soviets were spying against our country--we have no recourse. They
have violated the laws of our country; they don?t have special exemption
from those laws, as do diplomats, and so they were prosecuted. This is
not the first time we have done this. There was a man named Ivanov a
number of years ago who was similarly prosecuted because he too did not
have diplomatic status.
GRAHAM And do you think that--he was exchanged--do you think
these two may be exchanged?
ADM TURNER: That?s a policy matter outside of my sphere.
KEMPSTER: Do you think it?s possible that the Soviets may attempt
to pick up someone, an American, to prosecute in retaliation for this,
either one of your people or somebody just picked up off the street?
ADM. TURNER.- We certainly hope not, but we certainly believe that
their efforts to take action against an American businessman, Tlro Craw-
ford of the International Harvester Company in Moscow some months ago,
was a flagrant and direct retaliation for this perfectly legal action
that our country took in this instance.
HERPIAN.- Admiral, I'd like to ask you a little bit about the CIA's
role in estimating the energy resources of the world. I refer you to
the CIA report which President Carter quoted when he was discussing
the energy situation, which he found very disturbing. Some of those
figures have gyrated rather wildly--figures, for example,on Saudi Arabian
oil capabilities went up and down by several million barrels a day over
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the course of a couple of months. !,,]here do you stand now on the world?s
oil production, and were these figures gyrating so wildly because you
lacked good information, or because you were tailoring them to some-
thing? What was going on then?
ADM, TURNER: Well, the figures did not really gyrate. We-
Well, I
I IERIIAN o / could read you the various numbers that you published e
AD?-I0 TURNER: No, but the press misunderstood a lot of that, and
it was partly our fault for not making it more clear. What we have
done is point out that there are two different ways of estimating what
a country will produce. One is, what is their physical capacity to
produce, and the second is, what will they likely produce--because they
have their own interests--how much money do they need; how much oil do
they want to consume in this period of time as opposed to holding it
for the future. And that was a difference in the predictions, in esti-
mating what they would or could produce; but our basic view today re-
mains that somewhere in the 1980's--somewhere, probably, in the early
1980?s--'the world as a whole is going to be able to get out of the
ground less oil than it will want to have in order to consume on the
surface of the ground.
HERMAN: You still believe the Soviet Union will be importing
massive amounts of oil in the first years of the eighties?
ADM. TURNER- We believe the Soviets will become net importers-
the Soviet bloc as a whole, not just the Soviet Union, but taking into
account their Eastern European satellites.
HERMAN. I'm a little puzzled about the numbers once again. I
hadn?t intended to read them, but I guess it?s the only way to get
around it. In the biweekly reports on oil supplies, in November the
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CIA estimated the productive capacity, of Saudi fields at eleven and a
half million barrels a day, in December ten and a half, in January
eight and a half, in February back to ten and a half. Now that sounds
like a little more than misinterpretation between the two ways of im-
proving--
ADNO TURNER-. The eight and a half figure was actual production;
the others were capacity. The newspaper--
HERRZAN-. Well, even the capacity figures gyrated fairly well, from
eleven and a half on down
ADU. TURNER! No, no, our estimates of their capacity have remained
steady. I think you're reading a paper that has misinterpreted the
facts, that?s all,
GPAHAN: Admiral, on another subject, Harvard University has
adopted guidelines which prohibit its professors from undertaking covert
activities for the CIA, and which prohibit them from recruiting foreign
students on the campus to be agents of the CIA. As I understand it,
you have said that despite that, the CIA is going to continue to try
and operate that way on the Harvard campus.
ADNo TURNER- Well, I'm certainly not bound by the regulations of
every college in this country, but I would like to say this, I
think it?s very dangerous for our country, when a particular segment of
our society--in this case, the intelligence community--is singled out
for discriminatory action. If Harvard or any other university wants to
pass rules like that which apply across the board, to recruiting on
their campus by American industry, by foreign governments, or---
GRAHA11 Surely it?s not the same, is it?
ADNNYe TURNER: It's certainly--
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GRAHANf CIA covert operations on their campus and corporations
recruiting on the campus--surely there's a difference.
ADI1, TURNER: Do you think the corporations recruit openly? Te
recruit as openly on campuses as do private corporations.
GRAHA1I~ But they're talking about covert recruitment of students
by professors.
HERMAN: And faculty.
GRAHAU . Yes
HERMAN.- And recruitment of faculty by--
GRAHAM: Don't you think you should abide by Harvard's rules?
ADIie TURNER: If I were required to abide by the rule of every
corporation, every academic institution in this country, I--it would
become impossible to do the required job for our country.
HERIIAFI ? So the answer is no 0
ADI'l. TURNER: The answer is no, absolutely no.
GRAHAI'1: You're insisting on the right to subvert their rules?
ADII. TURNERS No I'm not subverting their rules. I am carrying
out the legal responsibilities of the Central Intelligence Agency, and
Harvard does not have a legal authority over use
IZEIIPSTERS Admiral Turner, the--in years past, the Central Intel-
ligence Agency has carried out activities that subvert the rules and
the governments of foreign countries. Is the agency still doing this,
and is the agency able to do this under the intelligence reforms that
have been passed in the last couple of years?
ADI. TURNERS There are very strict rules for what you are talk-
ing about, which we call covert political action--not collecting intel-
ligence, but attempting to influence events abroad; and they are defin-
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itely controlled by a process established by the laws of this country,
and we must get the approval of the President of the United States and
we must notify the committees of Congress if there's any such covert
political action going ono And I'd like to say that that's part of a
really important development in the intelligence of our country today-and
that?s good oversight by the Congress; and in the last year and a half,
thanks to the cooperation of the committees of Congress in this regard,
the oversight mechanisms, the check for the public on what we are doing
in intelligence, have become very strong, very valid, very helpful to
us in the long run. I'm very pleased at this development in our intel-
ligence capability for this country.
REIIPSTER- Have you had to pass up any covert political action
that you think would be necessary for the national defense as a result
of this oversight?
ADN, TURNER. That's--yes, we have.
HER-IAN; Let me-
ADUo TURNER- And it's very proper that we should, when the over-
sight indicates that that's not in accordance with the desires of the
country.
I1E1CAN g Let me ask you just one question on the other side of
that coin. There have been reports that you were forced, you felt, to
delay or not act on requests for help from the government of Italy when
Prime Minister Aldo Toro was kidnapped, that you felt you could not
help the tJest Germans when the Lufthansa plane was hijacked and taken
to Somalia, because of these laws. Are those reports correct?
ADM. TURNER? Totally incorrect. There was nothing we were able
to do and wanted to do that we were not capable of doing.
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HERTZAN-. Well, wanted is a little different. T~i1ere you asked to
do some--
AD14, TURNER; Nothing we were asked to do that we did not respond
GRAHAM-. Sir, quickly, former Director Richard Helms is a registered
agent of the Iranian government, and William Colby, former Director, is--
I think, represents Japanese Airlines. Do any of these by former CIA
Directors--does any of this bother you?
HERMAN.- You have time for a yes or no. (LAUGHTER)
GRAHAM . Is there a problem there?
ADW> TURNERS That's too complex a question for a yes or no. Thank
you very much for the opportunity to be with you today.
HERiiN Thank you for being our guest today, and well have a
word about next week's guest in a moment.
ANNOUNCER-. Today on FACE THE NATION, the Director of Central
Intelligence, Admiral Stansfield Turner, was interviewed by CBS News
Correspondent Fred Graham; by Norman Kempster,, Washington Reporter for
The Los Angeles Times; and by CBS iTews Correspondent George Herman.
Next week, the Secretary of the Treasury, TZichael Blumenthal, will
FACE THE NATION.