TRANSCRIPT: HU-1056/8310/08

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: STARGATE
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP96-00788R001900370001-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 12
• Document Creation Date: November 4, 2016
• Document Release Date: June 25, 1998
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: December 8, 1983
• Content Type: TRANS

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TRANSCRIPT HU-1056/8310/08
#66: This will be a CENTER LANE interview for 0900 hours
8 December 1983. Relax and concentrate now. Relax
and focus your attention solely and completely on
the individual in the photograph I've shown you.
Focus and describe his location on 2 August 1983,
the evening hours 1700 to 2200, 2 August 1983.
#08: He a..was a ....... he was a watched, observed ah..
going into a grayish stone, almost ah....gray
bluish building with a... with a glass doors.
..........old hotel type, three
stories,. (mumble). He is observed by a.... by two
people, ah...diagonally across from him on
opposite... sides of the street, that's the initial
scenario.
#66: Okay. Tell me about what he does inside this
building that he goes into.
#08: Okay. ...... The a....he's a..carrying a..the
briefcase in his left hand. .......The ah..
briefcase is important. The a...briefcase
ah...contains a ..... 8x10 ah... black and white
glossies.there in the ..there in the a... pocket or
the strap of the briefcase inside. ...Ah... I
jumping ahead, just a second. ....... The a...I
can't make out what is on the a.. pictures, except
there is contrast, big, huge contrast, black and
white... with the a focus ah..... the focus of a
...of attention on the white,.... the portion of
the photograph like.. resembles, it's a..circular
#66: Is the photograph landscape, object or person?
#08: No, I don't know what it is, I can only describe,
it has lines, horizontal, little lines that you
would find on a plastic cover. It's not that but
it gives that appearance. There are three series
of lines or layers. It was focused at a...it was
taken at very close range. I'm going to get off
that kick now.
#66: Okay.
#08: Ah...There is a, as he came through the glass door,
there is a reception desk on the left. There is
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ah..a greenery that resembles a ...... why should I
get at ..... some green, greenery plant... behind,
behind the desk, and behind the receptionist, part
of the decor, I guess. As if this is slow. Ah...
he's going up a..white steps ah with a...dark iron
railing. I have to wait. ............. The top of
the step comes right faced to a ah..elevator.
......... (mumble).... goes left. It's a grayish rug
with a red border. ...... in the second room
to the left of the front, the end of the corridor
and other part is a window. .......... The room is
dark or the nature of this activity is a...under a
desk lamp. .. .. .(mumble).... a (mumble) is..
is ah ..... there's interest being shown by a second
man as if to...say a....that a....this step or
whatever it is, happening took place without
incident.
#66: Describe the second man.
#08: ...(......mumble) a twin bed, very dimwitted,
dimlit (mumble) in fact the guy's got suspenders.
..... Wait. .. ...This a..the activity under
the desk lamp is ..... has to do with little plastic
or glass viles and pieces of glass like slides.
..........By the plastic viles are little chains,
..small chains like the old "dog tag chains" but
much smaller. .......... There the a....the glass
viles with a ..... like a pills, like aspirin but
that's a distracter, it's not the real purpose.
......... It's something about a very small....
piece of plastic. ......... (mumble) work chip, I
don't know. .......................... The a. .
the, the a..activity or the discussions about the
activity.... are both are legal....are plausible and
a ...... a cover for a.... another activity that is
about 5 to 10% illegal. The a....nature of the
activity is contained in the, in a..plastic a bound
ah...like lead plastic bound or books or something
like, something, it is used to brief, ....... to
brief, ...... used to brief a...people...about the
nature of the legal activity that they're working
on. Ah.... this goes into an 11 o'clock, midnight.
What do you want to pursue?
#66: Okay, I'm interested in the description of the
legal activity and the description of the illegal
activity.
#08: They all...the percentages are terribly impressive
so let me start with that. ...... The degree of the
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illegal activities is a...only about 5, less than
10 % of the legal activity. The illegal activity
is a... is something-taken from the legal activity
and illegally disseminated, distributed or given.
....I have to wait ..................... I don't
know, this gets complicated here. .........
#66: Break it out.
#08: It has to do with
representation of interest. .......... Two....let
me start again. ....Representation of one interest
to a foreign interest,....a public relations is
involved or...a form there of...and the illegal
activity is two fold, one, two. It's a disclosure
of part of the interest.. represented to the other
interest. ........ And the highly questionable
second part is to....have the parties of the second
interest... make them believe that a...that this guy
has doubled himself against the first interest to
the nature of ....... The a...raw data answer to the
nature and I'm losing it, is a..books, books, books
and a...information not necessarily classified but,
just say that because it just came as books, that
information.
#66: Okay. Anything else to add at this time?
#08: No, I think, I think it's going.
#66: Okay. Now as you lose your perceptions, I want you
to remember and recall everything that you
perceived.
#08: Okay.
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EXPLANATION HU-1056/8310/08
#08: Okay. I picked him up in front of this a. glass
entrance door of a..stone building, grayish, almost
steel blue, 'cause it was quite...ah..dark
appearing, and the idea of an arch or. cover over
the doorway was present. I had him there. I got
the distinct impression that he was being
surveilled from two points diagonallly left and
right, down the street one man was already in
place, one man had already followed him there and I
saw this vision sort of zooming in on him. That's
where I picked him up.
#66: What type of a place was this he was going in?
#08: It was, certainly turned out to be a hotel as far
as I know.
#66: Okay.
#08: Ah..and I later sort of, from this still shot and
as I examined it, I kind of let it run afterwards
and he crossed through the glass doors and picked
up his key from the receptionist which was on the
left, trying to describe the oddities of that
receptionist. Trying to describe some type of fern
or green ah...greenery that she had behind her key
boxes sort of a...a...thing to liven up the place a
little bit. And from there he went up white stone
stairwell with a...with a iron railing with sorts
which leads right up to in front of an elevator, in
fact the elevator opened but he never even got in,
he went to the left which I think placed him on the
second floor. And went down the hall. I was
trying to look at the carpeting, carpeting again
appeared very dim and gray. It could be the poor
light but it had a little red border. I followed
him all the way down the hall. And at the end of
the hall there's a window and he was either in the
second, last to second room from the last on the
left. Then 1 was trying to determine the nature of
the activity that took place. Oh, let me back
track. After I had him coming through the doors,
my focus was, of attention was directed towards
this damn briefcase and difficult for me to see and
photographs piled on one another, maybe four or
five, maybe as many as eight, maybe less,
ah...either 5x7s or 8xlOs, glossies and I was
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trying to see through that to give me an idea what
the hell was so important about the photographs.
And all I got was a.. .really clashing perspective
of,...within the framework of the photograph, a
black background and a concentration on something
white in the center, which looked like a reel of
slides. There's was, it was,...I call that
serrations or lines and that's the best I could
describe it. It was like a basic tier on top of a
smaller tier and on top of a smaller tier with a
little cover, it looked like a thermos top, clear
plastic thermos top. And I can't describe it any
further.
#66: Okay. Part of the picture looked to you to be
similar to a carousel that fits on a slide
projector?
#08: Yes, because of the serrations.
#66: Okay. It was circular with little serrations?
#08: Yes.
#66: Okay. And go on from there.
#08: And then on top of a...all in one piece, this would
have been the bottom piece and like there would
have been another carousel on top of that one, but
smaller and something else on top of that with a
plastic cover and a few lines. It didn't make
sense but the area of concentration of interest was
in that white portion of the picture. It's just
the best I could do with the picture.
#66: Okay, so and then you said it was taken close up as
though this were something that was taken quite
close to this?
#08: Yes, yes.
#66: And it was circular and progressively smaller, like
conical in the sense that it got smaller but it was
made up of individual like circles.
#08: Yes. This was definitely a very small article that
was blown up.
#66: Oh, I see, okay. You had the perception that this
was something smaller--
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#08: Yes, someone made a special effort it get 12 or 18
inches away from that thing and clipped it away.
#66: Okay.
#08: That was an answer to my question as to what is so
important about the briefcase, why did you bring my
attention to the briefcase and then from the
briefcase to the photos.
#66: Okay.
#08: Okay. This happened before--
#66: --- You went up stairs--
#08: --I went up stairs.
#66: Okay.
#08: And a. let them do that. The nature of the
activity in the room was rapidly brought to a desk
lamp. The rest of the room was extremely dim.
There was a man, I'm not too sure if it was the
bald headed man, or maybe I wanted to see the bald
beaded, I don't know, but there was a man lying on
the bed, on his elbow expressing the thought, "how
did it go", or that, that this phase of this
activity which is important, but which was not all
important, like phase two of five phases went
without hitch like it was asking it went without a
hitch.
#66: Umm, umm.
#08: And apparently it did. The a..And then I tried to
find out what the nature of the activity in the
room was, the important activity in the room was,
and I was quickly brought to this desk lamp. And I
thought he was going to look at the photographs. I
really thought that's what it was going to be and
it didn't turn out to be like that at all. What I
saw were pieces of glasses like slides that you
would use on a microscope, and about 5 or 6 viles,
plastic, plastic screw on viles, about 2 inches
tall with little plastic caps, and a little chain
around those, about 5 or 6 of them.
#66: Umm, um.
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#08: And I sort of forced myself to find out what, what
was in the viles and I got the impression of powder
and pills of sort, as a, and I said is this the
real nature of the interest and the answer was no,
there is a small piece of plastic film or microchip
appearing thing that was in there, not in all viles
but in one or two, I don't know. Then I lost it.
#66: Okay.
#08: And this picture of the desk lamp concentrating
this beam of light on this activity was steady, it
was not interrupted and the rest of the room was
kind of dark.
#66: Okay, now I want to make sure of your choice of
words.
#08: It's very difficult.
#66: Microchip or--
#08: The size, in size.
#66: Okay.
#08: To express smallness.
#66: Okay, are we talking microdot?
#08: No, no, nothing like that, nothing, well I don't
know nothing like.
#66: You didn't get a flavor of microdot processing?
#08: No, the piece of plastic or whatever it was, was
the item of interest which is perhaps the size of a
thumb nail, square, was already covered in another
piece of plastic.
#66: So it seems that was.
#08: In an envelope.
#66: --there was something that was very small and
protected in that.
#66: Okay.
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#08: Then I don't remember the rest, you can pump me
anymore-, I don't think that was it was it?
#66: Well, you said that there was a legal and an
illegal activity.
#08: Oh yeah, God yes, God that was, I got involved in
mathematics there because I could not get something
material, something substantive of a material
nature to describe to you and what it translated
was that the nature his activity which was legal
was the great extent of his activity like this
where the 90%, 95% came in--
#66: And what do you think that legal activity is, how
would you describe that legal activity?
#08: It has, I found later that it was, it had a PR
flavor, it had an information flavor, it had like
a..the guy was acting as an intermediate middle man
involved in some information process. I want to
quickly say, I did not get the flavor it was
classified information at all. It was just an
information process that he was trying to put
across. He was trying to sell something to 5 other
representatives, for lack of a better number, and
that they were interested. And he then, in turn,
gave the impression to these 5 people that he was
really representing their individual interests
against the main interest. And he was playing both
sides against one another.
#66: Okay, but he was involved in some sort of
information exchange with other people?
#08: Yes, then I went back to further clarify to tell me
what is the nature of the business at hand and all
I got was books.
#66: And this is the legal side?
#08: That's the legal side of it.
#66: Books and what else?
#08: Information from papers.
#66: Books and information from papers and things like
that.
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#08: And that's as raw as I could get and that's all I
got.
#66: Okay. What about the illegal side of the house?
#08: The illegal side of the house was obtained from
that portion of which was legal.
#66: Okay.
#08: Okay, which he was not supposed to be handing over
or giving over or doing. And I think he was
milking both interests from the middle. That's as
much as I can tell you.
#66: You said something about, you used the HUMINT term,
okay, I'll just remember to word that one--
#66: Yeah, some sort of a--
#08: Oh yeah, he's got a natural cover because he's
representing the interest of the firm.
#66: Okay.
#08: Okay, so his activities are going to appear all
legal.
#66: Okay.
#08: Okay. It's as if I were going to HUMINT
conference, okay, but say I had a meeting on the
side with an attache or something, that,..if I
spent a week and had one meeting, that would
represent 5% of my activity, but my cover would
natural, because HUMINT would have sponsored me to
the HUMINT conference. No matter who followed me,
that's what they would have found, because that's
what I was supposed to do.
#66: So you feel that there was a--
#08: They're working within the legality of the system
to accomplish something illegal.
#66: All right. Do you have any idea what that
accomplishment is?
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#08: That's, it has to do with that information they're
not supposed to release.
#66: Okay.
#08: It has to do with this other stupid activity about
a...the photographs, the a---
#66: But you don't have any other information on right
now?
#08: No, just, just described physical aspects of it.
#66: Okay. Maybe we will be able in later explorations
to get some more information on that. Back to the
scene at the desk and the lamp and looking at
little viles and powders and things, and I asked
whether or not this was microdot oriented and you
said no, just something small in size.
#08: Well, microdot is something on a newspaper where
you dot the "i" if you work on microdot so I--
#66: Right, okay. Is it trades craft oriented?
#08: Could be, yeah, sure.
#66: Did you get a feeling that it was trades craft
oriented?
#08: Absolutely, you could have an entire document
printed on that piece of plastic that is the size
of a thumb nail. But in terms of microdot--
#66: You're not saying that's what it is, you're just
saying that it's certainly possible.
#08: Sure, absolutely.
#66: Okay. So do you have anything else in summary to
add to this?
#08: No, no.
#66: Okay, good. Oh, I know one more thing I wanted to
ask, I'm sorry. Recalling in your mind, the
entrance before the glass doors, describe the main
thoroughfare right outside this place.
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#08: Ah, there was very little traffic, it was in a city
type environment, very old.
#66: You have an old feeling about it?
#08: Yeah, ah....like...an old type environment with a
pseudo morden hotel but not that extremely
plush,..a..the buildings across the street from the
hotel were very close to the, to the sidewalk and
the road. And the people had them on the site
didn't really get close at all, they're were
opposite ends of the street, in terms of yards, I
don't know, maybe 30 to 40 yards away. One was in
place, one was already in place definitely and
other guy just petered out.
#66: But in general terms, this place outside the hotel,
was city like, there were buildings right at the
sidewalk which is right at the street as opposed to
being set back a big distance.
#08: Yes, yes. But if I were to characterize it, it
would not have been in the extreme middle of the
city.
#66: Okay.
#08: Not in the center of the complete activity,
somewhere to the side, but still part of the city,
very much part of the city.
#66: Okay. Smaller in city size as opposed to being--
#08: --Yeah, New Yorkish.
#66: Right, not big giant sky rises?
#08: No.
#66: But building types.
#08: Yes.
#66: A built up area.
#08: Two or three stories.
#66: And not much traffic at the particular time.
#08: No.
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#66: Of course it was a little later in the afternoon.
#08: That was weird. In fact I got an impression of
darkness, but that didn't jive, but what the hell,
overcastish, very shadowy, might have been just my
viewing.
#66: Sure. Okay, anything else?
#08: No.
#66: Okay, good.
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