INSCOM GRILL FLAME PROGRAM SESSION REPORT

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: STARGATE
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 37
• Document Creation Date: November 4, 2016
• Document Release Date: June 10, 1998
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: September 5, 1980
• Content Type: REPORT

Approved For Release 2000/001 " [ 99-00788R000200520001-3
INSCOM
GRILL FLAME
PROGRAM
CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH
DATED: 1051630ZJUL78
NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS REVIEW ON:
Approved For Release 200 lA-DP96-0078,
J~O-vj4kME
 Approved For Release 20
96-00788R000200520001-i
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-29
1. (S/NOFORN) This report documents a remote viewing session conducted in
compliance with a request for information.
2. (S/NOFORN) The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as
raw intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate
analysis, evaluation or collation. Interpretation and use of the information
provided is the responsibility of the requestor.
3. (S/NOFORN) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document
Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated.
4. (S/NOFORN) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the
remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer
reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B is target cuing
information provided the remote viewer. At TAB C is MFR from the analyst.
5. (S/NOFORN) An attempt was made to run this session concurrently with
session D-28. Session D-28 was cancelled due to noise and interference.
Approved For Release__20001 /
-007 8000200520001-3
x10
 Approved For Release 2000/00-7, .., 88R000200520001-3
TIME
#14:
#14:
+03
#19.5
+05
#14:
#19.5:
#19.5
+10
#19.5:
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-29
This will be -a remote viewing session for 5 September 1980.
On target time is 0830 hours.
All right #19.5 the time is now 8:30 hours. I have an
envelope here. Inside the envelope is a photo of the actual
target object that I want you to focus on today. I want
you, at this time, to move to the target object. I want
you to give me a very brief description of the surroundings
of this object. I want you now to relax, focus on the
object in the envelope.
PAUSE
Getting black and white patterns. Just a minute..........
There's a concrete floor. It's either concrete or asphalt.
Metal walls...uh..very large, large building like..uh..
aircraft hanger ...Very plain.
Okay. At this time I want you to focus on the target
object itself. I want you to describe this object in
detail.
It's got a.pointed snout-like a nose on it, smooth, very
smooth, comes to a point. Just a minute. Something's
bothering me.
See a row of ovals. It's a pair of ovals. I don't know.
Running away from me-right side..angular curved overhang,
looks like metal...sort of gray color.... It's a......
got a thick alloy...... keep seeing..uh..the V patterns.
Like layers of Vs on top of one another. A sandwich of
Vs.....something to do with the front, front of the object...
the Vs do.
Hood..it...hooded windows. Some kind of shielded windows.
Very narrow with like blinders over the top made of some
kind of metal. It's something to do with this, this nose
part of the thing
Approved For Release VBP#6-00788ROO0200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/
R000200520001-3
#14: Okay. What is the principle function of this object?
PAUSE
#19.5: Very powerful...uh..i.t's ..uh..it's got a lot of power
that..uh..puts some form of power out in a radiating pattern.
very hard, very strong. It's..I see like..just a minute.
Drives like a automobile, only it's..uh..got no steering
wheel. Rides rough on the outside. But,.it's ..uh..
soft, soft on the inside. Some kind of vehicle.
#14: Okay. Where do the personnel that operate this vehicle
do these functions..uh..in other words, where do they sit.
Where are they located within, around this vehicle?
+15 #19.5: See like..uh..boxes or compartments. Uh...there's like
shielded, shielded compartments, very thick, high-back
seats. It's a four, four people for operations. Pri..
primary operator is..uh..front left......and his, his
backup is front right. There's a different, different
place for the other two. I, I'm having trouble. I see
all four people, but I see like plates or boxes in between.
#14: Okay. Focus on these other people and describe what type
of actions they perform in this vehicle.
#19.5: See one of 'em has got a..got his hands on levers
or something. Handles. Got his hands on two handles.
Three, uh, 3 handles there. Got his hands on two of these.
Looking through..like..uh..rubber eye piece. Like..uh..
some kind of rubber bulb or something like that. Uh...
Something very heavy over, over his right shoulder.
I don't know what it is. It's got like slots down the side.
....Another..uh..another man is with him, but he's sitting
by this thing looks like..uh..egg carton.or something.
It's got bumps like a egg carton. Very large. Sits..uh..
+20 sideways in the seat. This seat thing that folds down .
Just got an impression there's a fifth person, but he's like
in charge. Uh..I don't know where he's at. He's..uh..
these two are in charge of..uh..uh..some, some kind of..uh..
some kind of power apparatus or something. Thing
puts out..uh..something...puts out some kind of power.
#14: Describe this, this apparatus which assists in doing the
function of this object.
Approved For Release 2000/0 8R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08 8R000200520001-3
#19.5: Uh..I keep, keep trying to see what it is, and I keep
getting bright blue pulsing flash..very incandescent
blue pul- pulsing flash.
PAUSE
Just uh ..like the point:of a shiny p1n magnified very
large and bright blue-white flash, pulses on and off...
big, thick..uh.. thick..uh..drilled hard block steel
thick block..uh..uh..block of something very hard metal
of steel alloy, grooves, I see grooves, but I can't see
if they're inside or outside. Something looks like side
mounted tubes, very small ...like..uh..hydraulic shock
absorbers or something in a car banded together and..uh..
coming out to the right angle from the side of the block.
Some block thing. Everything looks padded. Must have
got a coating of padding on it or something. Some soft,
fibrous substance looks like padding....... It's electronics
there too..uh..it's stacked in a metal rack very small
packages..uh..4 uh by a 8 inch face, four elements just
stacked. See, two stacks an-another apparatus to the
side looks like a TV screen. Oscilloscope of some kind
It's..uh..some kind of indicator scope. Very compact.
A lot of solid state..uh..I.C's...very, very sensitive.
This directs the power, I think. Uh..guy with..uh..guy
with the levers is...doing something there, I think.
He ..uhi. manipulates but...buttons,presses buttons.
Also...uh........get a hot feeling for a minute, I don't
know. Don't know if that's associated with this target.
....See many tubes, like, not..large, tubes like.....
like copper tubes, pipes, something ....................
That's all I get.
#14: Okay. I have no further questions at this time. Anything
else you'd care to add?
+30 #19.5: Uh...I keep getting a silhouette outline; like a upside
d6wn boat with..uh..upside down boat with an oval pattern.
But no windows. That's all. I don't know what it is.
#14: Okay. We'll pause now. All right Flight Control we're
ready now. Okay #19.5 1 want you to back and focus on the
operator who was handling the levers and was at the station
with the oscilloscope. I want you to try to get more detail
on the functioning and the, the reason behind the oscilloscope
and the controls at this position.
.!k
Approved For Release 20001'; =R'9'8'=DU 788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08
17BE
R000200520001-3
+35 #19.5 Uh...picture-this...uh..scope like-thing is a picture-
and I see color, but I can't, I can't find anything.
But, imposed on the picture ..uh..is a set of-two sets-
set of like hazy red lines intersecting on top of one
another in a circle, and they move-when he-when he pushes
buttons. I see these switches on a computer terminal.
It's a computer keyboard-like a minnie keyboard. It's
got a, some kind of a bar-two bars in front of it, that
he rests his hands on so that his fingers can touch the
keys only when he wants them to. It's a special keyboard.
It's not like a typewriter. It's different, and it's got
like command keys. Looks very much like the same kind of-
the same kind of design function like-like the..uh..uh..
like the lunar module-the manned lunar....... module, but
it's..uh..this is different. This isn't..uh..this isn't
any kind of a space vehicle. This is something different.
It's directing, oh, what appears to be an apeture device
of some kind that rotates, rotates to a azimuth. It's
indicative an azimuth from a center line device. He knows,
he knows the center line in this, this gives azimuth.
There's another black-no-think it's gray, gray button with
appears to be the word elevation or something on it. It's
some abbreviation for elevation, I think. There's a larger
red buttons. These buttons are square, by the way. Larger
red button near the some-some kind of a interlock action
button of some kind. It, it generates an action. I get
different impressions for color on the screen. Like
different ways of sensing-I'm-get like an infra-red picture
one minute; I get a different picture of the other; almost
like a camera picture. Pictures I'm getting-when I look
at the screen or tanks..uh..heavy vehicles, armored vehicles
-some mock-up targets. It's like it's-they're targets
of some kind. There's a very strange, there's a pitch and
yaw type element to this control system which appears to
be strange for a vehicle.
#14: Turn your volume up a little (talking to analyst).
+40 #19.5: This is a vehicle with a pitch and a yaw control This is
really weird. Secondary backup power systems there.
There's a manual override system for the computer. The
computer is very small, black box; main part of the computer
is only got a light to show that it's on. It's like a
cassette load or something there for a loading system.
Shielded, very well shielded. Like with metal. Almost like
it's physically prratected, versus electronically. Sharp,
shock absorbing-padded..uh.. he, he, he's controlling some
kind of targeting. I get this feeling like he can access
at least 3 targets at one time, and instantly respond to
this key pad system. Very, very well protected area though.
Approved For Release 2000/08 :) 8R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/0a ;~ _ 7.88R000200520001-3
Vin. J
#19.5: There's-controls that go from this system to the driver
as well which has to do with..uh.....
#14: Flight Contro, I can't hear you.(Talking to the analyst)
#19.5: Just a minute. Hang on a minute.
#14: Control room-control-yeah, turn your volume up. (Talking
to the analyst)
PAUSE
(#14 receiving EEI from analyst)
#14: Okay #19.5, I've got to -get another - paperfull of notes here.
#19.5: I think I've been disturbed here by this siren.
#14: Okay. Will do. (talking to the analyst.) Okay #19.5,
we 11 pause now for debrief.
PAUSE
#14: We're now ready for debrief. Okay.
#19.5: Uh...I guess.I'll.,''I'll draw my first, very first impression.
Page 1. I was..uh..like looking at this..uh..what appeared
to be some form of upside down boat, and it was sideways
to me-going away from me, and it had like a very heavy metal
overhang. It's kind of like this. And, there was like ovals
which I at first thought were windows, but they're not.
It's just a pattern down the side. There was five of these.
And, then---that, we'll call that A, and then the second
impression I got was of a nose, believe it or not. Just
this ---like ..... this bullet shape snout piece that had
form to it. I can't draw this very well. It's just like a
pointed snout. I kept-had to call it a snout, for some
reason. It was in some way associated to A. And, then I
had an impression of-----this one another thing ..uh..
..Oh! I know what it was---call it C.
I had an impression of looking sideways at something that
went like this, and there was like a, a very thin, narrow
glass window. Almost like this. Very thick. Almost
prismatic, and.directly over it was shielding. Some form
of shielding, and almost looked like an eye. It was a
shielding? very heavy shielding around it, and I think this
might have been the upper part of the snout. That's why
I called it a snout; because it looked very much like an
eye on this side, and it was-that kind of an impression
that I was seeing, but it was very definitely a very narrow
dented like window.
Approved For Release 200070810?7 CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/0 0788R000200520001-3
#31: Aha...okay, along with this you have something about
Bs; you said the Bs.
#14: No, no, Vs.
#31: Vs. Okay, the Vs then.
#19.5: Oh! The Vs, okay, yeah.
#31: V pattern, okay, have something to do with the nose?
#19.5: Yeah. I had a pattern. Let me call it D.
#31: Sandwich, sandwich of Vs.
#19.5: Yeah, sandwich of Vs.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: Okay, what, what I had was I had, it was like layered
Vs; one on top of another. Because I was trying to get
inside of this thing to see what it was, and I got an
impression of this.....I'll show you what I got an impression
of here. I got an impression of.....this kind of thing,
in which, now, this is a very thick shield of metal. I,
I kept getting this word shielding going through my mind
you know, all the time, armored shielding like, and inside
of this were these V patterns...... like this. This is
like a cross-section, okay, and inside of that was another
piece of shielding-this is a lot larger scale than it
actually is. This had Vs...it was like..uh..cardboard!
Its almost like layers of cardboard; one on top of the
other with like the cardboard honeycomb in between it.
It just kept going like this in sheets and it was like
5 layers of this....and this, this is a cross-section.
#31: Do you have a feel for what part of the object it was?
Is that.....
#19.5: The front...
#31: The front?
#19.5: Very definitely the front of the object. Somewhere up
in here-see, this,this is looking around the side, okay.
I should put that arrow there. It..kind of goes around
to the side, and this, this thing here was somewhere up
in front.
#31: Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 "' 000200520001-3
r
 0 ! R-'OOO2OO52OOOl Approved ForRelease 2000/08/07 - 3
w
#19.5: And, I got the feeling that this, this snout, okay was
also somewhere up in-like up in here-this area..uh..
front top. And this was, part of, part of C.
#14: Okay. At this time why don't we turn the tape over?
#19.5: Okay.
#14: We.are now ready to continue with the debrief.
#19.5: Okay. Page 2.
#31: Okay. Let's see, going through the notes sandwich of
Vs; one on top of the other to do with the front of the
object; hooded window,shield; but very narrow metal blinders
over the top; something to do with nose.....uh.....okay...
okay, then we. moved, #14 keyed you to `what isthe principle
function of the object.
#19.5: Right.
#31: Okay. Maybe just some. words would help here to start with.
You had this feeling of very powerful.....
#19.5: Yeah. Oh! I got a......
#31: Okay.
#19.5: Okay, I got a picture of at like a blow up of the point
of a needle and it was very shinny and I kept getting
recurrent U white flashes, and I'll show you what the
flashes look like. I call this a needle be-I'd seen a
blow up of a needle before, and that's what this reminded
me of. I'm going to try and get this as best I can here.
It-was like looking at the end of a needle or straight pin
that's blown up, and in this case it was like polished
aluminum or something. It had a...very definitely was
reflecting light like offf of it. That kind of thing.
And, you could see this, this, like the spun marks in the
metal going this way, and then I was getting a...uh..
like a white, a really incandescent white area with a
pattern of 4 blue flames coming out like this; and this was
pulsing, and..uh..like this, and this kept pulsing. That's
the, the power that I was feeling.
#31: Okay. Form of power out, and radiating pattern very strong,
okay; you said, I see from #14's notes here, you say, I see
cement! Uh...but, earlier in the session...the very acquisition
phase you had cement or asphalt.
Approved For Release 2000/0,8 OT ' -~ P'9 0788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 A-
88R000200520001-3
#19.5: Yeah. That was like a flooring or something. I was
giving a quick and dirty of the surroundings of the object.
#31: Okay. Right. Okay, then my notes and #14s pick up and
say drive like an auto but has no steering wheel.
#19.5: Right. I don't, you know, I don't, it has a dashboard -
looks: like an automobile, but there's no steering wheel
there. No-you know, no column or anything like that. But,
the seats, the seats really unique.
Here, let me sketch that in, if I can. This will be kind
of like from the side. I got an impression of something
here; this came around. That would be the dash like. The
wraparound dash type affair, and back here would be this
...it's like very thick, very thick seat arrangement.
It's almost like the seats were armor plated. That kind of
affect. They're extremely heavy. And, some kind of controls
or something right here. And, this was like dials here, and
the ceiling kind of came down like this; came around, and
I got a feeling like there was bent vents or something here.
And, there was something else that protruded out of here,
okay, and it was like one of the, maybe it didn't protrude
out of the front itself, but hung down to the side or
something. It was like a camera type thing. Some kind of
camera type thing. That's literally about it. That was
on the left side, and the side piece over here, it was very
well paneled with padding type affair. You know. This, this
snap in padding. Very heavy padding; almost like insulation
........and seat belt. Very modern type interior. This is
all plating-up in here, black. Something like that. I know
.....my drawing is lousy.
#31: Umm....actually, I'm sitting here rather impressed with it.
Ha, ha, ha, it's pretty damn good perspective.......
#19.5: It's very clear, very clear in my mind, you know, when I
was watching it. This was like very heavy plate. Almost
like it was cut from steel block.
#31: Okay. Now, you're talking about what, the, what you're
sketching in is the rear of this seat. What is supposed to
be the rear of the seat.
#19.5: Yeah, yeah, right. This kind of affect.
#31: Okay. When we go back-you've done this in pencil, so when
we go back and do this in ink, I would like you to label
all those things. Now, I have a couple of questions.
Approved For Release 200 00788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08/ -.y 8R000200520001-3
#19.5: Wait a sec-this is a, a steel wall right there, by the
way. That's a steel wall.
#31: Okay. Okay. That's a steel wall behind the seat.
#19.5: Yeah. Right. And, this is steel plate up here.
#31: Okay. What you're doing now is drawing some.lines on the
above and apparently forward of the dash.
#19.5: Yeah-of the dash, right. That's very much like what the
driver, you know, that whoever's operating this thing by
driving, and this right here is some kind of control panel.
#31: Okay. And, that's by the, the right arm. That's the knob
with the bumpers on it.
#19.5: Yeah, yeah; it's over here too. It's like dual handed
controls or something.
#31: You have one on the left side then, as well.
#19.5: Yeah.
#31: Okay. All right.
#19.5: And..uh...
#31: All right. Is there anything more? How about...did you
have a feeling for the method by which the person that
sits in this seat would move into and out of this seat.
#19.5: Through some kind of a hatchway, which would be over here.
There's a hatch. like, right here. Then, there's another
wall then the other guys over here on the right. So---well
there's actually more than one hatch to this area. I get
a feeling like there's .... let me lightly stencil them in
here with dotted lines, I got a feeling like there was a
hatch here, like in between his position and the co-driver....
#31: Okay. So, that you have- you've drawn that's in the
foreground on the right side of the left-hand seat.
#19.5: Right. It's, well, it's right next to the seat back.
#31: Next to his elbow back?
#19.5: Yeah.
#31: Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/08 788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08/W_3 p-rP%MpF1XqpmV 8R000200520001-3
#19.5: And, you see- it's like, where that wall, that partition
here is. See, this wall comes all the way down here like
#31: Oh, I see, okay. All right. So, it's in the wall.
#19.5: It's in the wall, yeah.
#31: Okay. So it's in ex--it's a hatch that goes to the rear
of the seat, and is located in between..uh..possibly two
positions.
#19.5: Right, yeah. Well, I'll do a little sketch down here.
It's very easy. Like you have two seats; this being the
dash area, okay, and you have the wall back here, the
hatch is here, and then there,s a hatch in the floor, but
it's a lot smaller. Like..uh..right here, and then I got
a feeling like there's..uh..possibly an overhead hatch,
but, it's off-centered someway. Like here.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: You know. It would be..uh..up here like this.
#31: Okay, okay.
#19.5: About 3 hatches to that compartment.
#31: Okay. Now, you just..earlier when we were trying to hatch
hash this out here, before you did the overview-the overhead
view, you mentioned.... something that may be separating the
two compartments.
#19.5: Uh..this, this compartment----
#31: Or, did I understand you.....
#19.5: ...this compartment from the other that the other two people
are in..
#31: Okay.
#19.5:. Okay. Very clearly..uh...the driver and the co-driver
I think are in the same compartment. Looks like a box up
forward.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: And then to the rear, I get a feeling like to the rear of
them, above to the right just a little bit off to the center
line of this vehicle is where the other two people are.
Approved For Release 2000 00788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/081u F- 8R000200520001-3
#31: Okay.
#19.5: This being the, the center line, right here.
#31: Okay. Well, good.
#19.5: Is that detailed enough?
#31: That's...I'll tell you, that's, that's a work of art.
A veritable work of art .
#19.5: Okay. What else?
#31: Okay, okay. Now, that was in response to the question
..uh..where do the, where are the personnel which operate,
where are the personnel located which operate the vehicle.
Okay.
#19.5: Right.
#31: . Okay.You had them in the boxes or compartments, and you
broken the overall object down into consisting of
just what you said, was just two general compartments
one forward and low, the other one is up, rear, and to
the right.
#19.5: Right. One other thing you should be aware of-there are,
there are pedals in this thing.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: Very large., black pedals .............but it ain't a
bicycle, ha, ha.
#31: Ha, ha, ha. Okay, now, let me just ask you some questions
regarding sketch 3 here, overview.
#31: Ummm....is the dash, first of all, we have the compartment
as being one entire area, not segmented in any between
the two positions, is the dash, as it moves around front,
did you have a feeling of it, that it was a one continuous
system or was it segmented two identical systems; one for
each position.
#19.5: No, no. No, no. This, the one on the left is a primary;
the one on the right is a secondary or an auxiliary to the
one on the left. The one on the right appeared to have
everything that the one on the left had, but it, it wasn't
really there. It was just a wire assemble; like a wire
assembly off of the main dash. You know. All the
dials are there, and all the controls are there, and every
thing else, but the guts to it weren't there. It was like
Approved For Release 2000/08/ _ [ O788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/0
C.111 25Q~1111'7,61 00200520001-3
#19.5: ...the whole...the real controller assembly, you know,
the electronics you don't see...it's all on the left-
hand. dash, and the guy on the right is just..uh..it's
like one of these learn to drive type things. You know..
#31: Okay.
#19.5: ....where the instructor's got all the real controls, and
the student's only allowed to use......
#31 He's, he's, he just taps into the same, the main system.
So you're saying, essentially, the main control layout is
on the left....
#19.5: It's on the left, right.
#31: ...left position, and that the one on the right is just
tapped over to the left. It does not have its own unilateral
system capable of operating by itself.
#19.5: Yeah ...no,. no, no., and I really., I think that the one on
the right is..uh..is very seldom ever, if it's used at all,
very seldom ever used. It'd be an emergency backup like
system.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: Probably, possibly a shunt to manual control versus
electronics.
#31: Okay. All right. Now, moving through here-moving right
along, you have, as we. said, in my notes though, I'm going
back over to catch up. ..front left, primary operator;
front right, backup operator; different place for other two.
In #14's notes here there is the comment that.... (whistling)
primary operator in front left; co-operator in front right...
one has his hands on levers or handles and there are three.
#19.5: Uh...no, that's the two guys in the back compartment. Okay.
#31: Okay. That's. right, that's right. Cause now looking at
my notes, I see you have a different place for the other
two; you see all four, but you see plates or boxes in between.
#19.5: Right. It's like I was looking through the walls of the
boxes or plates, compartments in this.....
#31: Okay. #14 directed you to focus on the other, the other
personnel, and what they do. And, that's...... all right
now in my notes I see that's where one has levers and handles.
#19.5: Right. Right.
Approved For Release 2000/01111"1 1
R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/0 x?G0200520001-3
#31: Okay. Let's run a quick through to my notes here, to
refresh your memory. Levers, handles, three handles, looks
through rubber eye piece like a rubber bulb. Heavy.....
something, heavy over right shoulder with slots down the
side.
#19.5: Yeah. Let me, let me sketch this because it's going to
answer a lot of your questions, I think. Uh...okay...
there's a heavy...see if I can get this in perspective now...
that..fair job ..the other one is...a heavy block type
arrangement with..an additional piece that comes out like
this from the side...something like this, and there's like
..like one of those big rubber eye socket type pieces on
the-this side, like this. I had the feeling like there was
...two slots that came down the side for some reason......
and...the operator...I'm going to ... do this.-I'll put the
seat in here very lightly because the seat will block out
most of the view so I'll dot, dot the seat in. This is like
the head part of the seat, and the back of the seat, and then
this was actually inside of a....very narrow type area. This
being the roof of the, the vehicle, and also very padded
and then, right up here in front of the seat was like a...
like a control panel with a flat section built into the
front, and this was a key pad. There's like these double
bar type things that come out..this,,,that you rest the
heel-your heels of your hands on it so you can lean on it,
and still manipulate the keys...and there was like a row,
double row of boxes like this, and I said there was like
four boxes to a row.
And..I just got a feeling like there, there's some kind of
an electronics there, you know; IC type of electronics, and
I got a feeling like there was a blank here and a screen,
and this, this pictographic screen had the capacity of
producing more than just a camera type picture. Superimposed
of the screen I saw a double...red line that was overlayed
and like sitting up over that was a very light circle, and
then there was...like, I got a feeling like this was some
kind of a minnie computer of some sort here, and all it had.
was an indicator light.
#31: Okay. You have that in the upper left.
#19.5: Upper left. Yeah. I'll draw arrows to all this stuff.
That was blank, and there was some kind of, of command
squares here of some sort, you know, great buttons glowing
green, and blue, and white. Large activator type button
here. It was red, and, then, of course, the key pad all
different buttons; and over here other forms of electronics
like radios and intercoms- and stuff like that. And, this
was all like..uh..sitting in front of this seat. Down here
there was some kind of a...console type thing that had like
a Lever.: coming out this way.....and then had double lever
Approved For Release 2000/08/O2? 6, Qr0788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/R ;,-0788R000200520001-3
#19.5: ..this way.....That's the 3 leavers I was: talking about.
And, I, I don't know....what that is.....but, then back
over here I get a feeling like there was like hydraulic
tubes, copper hydraulic tubes coming down like this.....
and some coming out running down the side like this;
.......and, then back in behind this seat,. the other guy's
seat, was like this........these are also very heavily armored
seats...the other guy's seat came back like this. Back here
and he had some form of....looks like a switching panel or
something up here. But, down here, which is very interesting
down here was kind of like a thing that went like this, and
it was like .... did you ever see the inside of an egg cart?
#19.5: Looked like rows of eggs, like this. And there was also
a lot of, you know, padding up in here; the snap on type
padding, snap up type padding.
#31: Now, are you putting that in the background?
#19.5: Yeah.It's in the background. And, there was, oh, there was
.........there was some kind of.......I don't know how to
describe it......almost like a walkway right he.re.....
like, you go down in there, you know, and right here was
the, the front wall looking down through this, this flooring
like. That's the front wall where the garbage compartment
is, okay. His seat was up there like that.
#31: Okay. You're sketching that down, and in the corner between
the two seats, okay.
#19.5: Yeah.and then there's some other kind of......went like
this......I don't know how to draw this.
#31: That's fine. That's fine. Ummm......
#19.5: Oh! He had a.....he had also a vent type hanging up here.
#31: Okay. Now, in sketch 4 you're putting that in...forward
in the background of the left hand position.
#19.5: Yeah. It's right up over the..uh..
#31: Left on the sketch.
#19.5: Yeah. This, this bent thing is right up over the dash
panel that he's got.
#31: Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/ 788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/0 8R000200520001-3
#19.5: Yeah. Something he can look through I guess.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: There's something else behind this block, but, I couldn't
..I tell you, I just couldn't get anything out of this block
of metal except the grooves.
#31: Yeah. Let me ask you a few questions now, since we're
finishing up on sketch 4. The..uh..did you have a perception
of the function of the egg carton type thing?
#19.5: None at all, but I did... I got a feeling after awhile
after looking at this,,.this.bare' this dash panel up here,
okay, that this was some form of a fire control center, okay.
#31: Okay.
#19.5: Oh! There's something else really strange out it. I s
could swear I could distinctly see a button that said
elevation on it. And, I saw,,and then I saw a button that
says..uh..I can't remember what I said it said..
#31: Ummm.... you said it looked like it was an abbreviation for
elevation.
#19.5: Yeah. That-I remember that one, but...pitch and yaw. I
saw pitch and yaw which really blew me away, because I
wouldn't...this is not a space vehicle, but, you know,
that's what I associate it with, but it, it actually said
pitch and yaw on these buttons, you know. These gray
buttons.
#31: Aha, and do you have a feeling from where those buttons
were?
#19.5: Yeah. Right up here on the key pad.
#31: Okay. So, that's in front of the left hand position,
on the key pad, there.
#19.5: Yeah. Right. And...uh...
#31: Okay. Let me whip through my notes here, before we
discard or move on to the next session-next..uh..sketch.
419.5: Okay.
#31: Okay. (Garbled)see grooves..can't tell if inside or outside
..side mounted tubes; small like hydraulic shocks on a car
banded together coming out at right angles from the block
thing.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07.- q A " 8R000200520001-3
I
, ?M5
 Approved For Release 2000/08' ?'''" G AA 744?^^^200520001-3
#19.5: Yeah. Okay. That's-I'm going to have to draw this
separate without screwing. up that picture there.
#31: Okay, well, all right, well, let's see if we can still do
something with 4.
#19.5: Okay.
#31: Everything looks padded, soft fibrous padding packages.
Now, I picked up on the intercom that you had the 4 inch
by 8 inches faces 4 to a stack, two stacks. Is that-
#19.5: That's right there. That's in...
#31: Okay. That's on the right side of the-
#19.5: -of the. console panel.
#31: --panel, panel. Got something looks like a..uh..
oscilloscope or TV screen-
#19.5: Yeah. That's right in center of the panel.
#31: Okay. Now, later on in the session when we had you move
back to that panel you said that what-you discussed what
it was that you perceived viewing in that screen or on
that oscilloscope-
#19.5: Aha, that's what I was going to draw next.
#31: Okay. Why don't.you do-that?
#19.5: Okay. I'll do that before I do-do you want me to do the
shock absorbers looking things first? Or do you want me to
do that first?
#31: Why don't you do the screen type of latch up first.
#31: Okay.. What I perceived....on the screen, I keep wanting
to say it's a...picture, and I did get vivid pictures...
of tanks, mock-ups, concrete structures, armored vehicles.
You know. Like up on.a rise or hill or next to a bluff.
I was getting this flashing images but I also got other
things like infra-red images, and things that were really
strange. I got the in-like the infra-red image I got
looked like this. It looked like the screen was divided
in half. The bottom half being dark, and then the upper
half was like a...tank vehicle, but it was built like with
blocks, okay. Like all different blocks of-things like
this. Like one of these computer games, okay. That kind
Approved For Release 2000/ Th 788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08/m ? r_io_Rnp4~_nn~RRR000200520001-3
#19.5:
of thing.
It was built like out of blocks, squares.
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
And, there was a-they were colored squares, okay, and like
these squares here would be red, and these squares here would
be...blue,.and the rest of it would be like green, and then
lay-overlaying on that was a cross-hatch red line inter-
sected, like this; these were moveable, these would go
left and right....up and down, and then superimposed
over that was a very light circle, and it wasn't a
perfect circle. It was like an oval-egg shaped oval, and
that, it would also move sideways, and up and down, and
that's what I perceived like infra-red.
#31: Okay. But, did the oval move independent of----
#19.5: Independent of the cross here lines, the intersecting
cross here lines.
#31: Okay, all right. Okay. That's sketch 5.
#19.5: And, the, the other pictures were clear, precise, like
camera photos, you know. Like a camera looking through
a TV monitor or something.
#31: Okay. All right. Did you have any other type of feelings
associated with this.... screen? You've discussed two
different types but you said like and other things. I
just wanted to make sure , did you have any other peculiar...
#19.5: Yeah, I got, .I got brief glimpses of pronounced, you know,
superimposed numerics, letters and white, white,,you know,
like computer printout, and I'm not sure, they were coming
so quick, I'm not sure if they were actually superimposed
over the pictures or if they were just there alone without
the pictures being there. You know. Like a multi-purpose
screen.
#31: Aha.
#31: Okay. Why don't we label 5 here with the....uh...well we
can do that later. That's all right. We're going to all
of 'em later, anyway. Go back through and label (garbled)
#19.5: Label 'em, yeah.
#31: Okay, so, now for sketch 6.
Approved For Release 200
0788R000200520001-3
 Approved For Release 2000/08/07% VA 0200520001-3
#19.5: Now you want the shock absorbers?
#31: Yes. Now, the things associated with day day day day day
umm..... I had it here.....
#19.5: Big block.
#31: Side mounted tubes, small like hydraulic shocks on a
car, banded together, coming out at right angles from the
bla-block thing; not the black thing, the block thing.
#19.5: Well, there was a...okay, there was likid