AN APPLICATION ORIENTED REMOTE VIEWING EXPERIMENT

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April 1988
AN APPLICATION ORIENTED REMOTE VIEWING
EXPERIMENT (U)
4 5 326- WX: 910-373-2046 ? Telex: 334-486
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SRI Project 8339
Copy ....h. of ... .. Copies.
This document consists of 55 pages.
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Final Report
Covering the Period 1 May 1987 to April 1988
AN APPLICATION ORIENTED REMOTE VIEWING
EXPERIMENT (U)
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LIST OF FIGURES (U)
1.
(U)
Baylands Nature Interpretive Center, with RV Response ................. 5
2.
(U)
Part of the 0800 Response Compared with Photograph of the Altamont .... 14
Wind-Power Electric Generator Farm
3.
(U)
Part of the 0800 Response Compared With the West Gate of LLNL ....... 15
4.
(U)
Part of the 0800 Response Compared with a Map of the Livermore Area .. 16
LIST OF TABLES (U)
1.
(U)
Universe of Target/Response Elements ............................... 10
2.
Figure of Merit (FM) Summary-1. ................ 13
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I OBJECTIVE (U)
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The objectives of this experiment were to:
? Demonstrate the potential of a novel., 1-collection
? Determine the degree to which a specific analysis technique
is applicable.
I_
technique, known as remote viewing, -- -
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II BACKGROUND (U)
(U) Since 1972, SRI International has been investigating remote viewing (RV)--an
apparent human ability to gain access, by mental means alone, to information that is secured by
shielding, distance, or time.'-5* At least three elements are necessary to conduct an RV
experiment:
(1) An individual, called a viewer, with an RV ability,
(2) Specific target material (not available to the viewer at the time of the
experiment), and
(3) An analysis technique to determine the degree to which RV occurred.
In a typical protocoY, a viewer and a monitor--an interviewer who is also unaware of the target
material--are sequestered at time To. At To + 5 minutes, an assistant selects the intended target
by accessing a large pool of potential targets (e.g., a list of locations within a half-hour drive from
the laboratory) using a random procedure. At To + 30 minutes, the assistant is positioned at the
selected site and, back at the laboratory, the viewing begins. At To + 45 minutes, the viewing
ends and the assistant returns to the laboratory. To provide feedback, the viewer, monitor, and
the assistant, return to the selected site and review the RV data.
(U) To determine if RV occurred, a number of similar experiments are conducted using a
newly selected target for each trial. Usually, the trials are done with target replacement (i.e.,
each target is returned to the pool and may be selected again by the random process). Since
1972, many procedures have been developed to determine whether information has been
obtained beyond chance expectation.?-8 In the current method,9 the targets and responses are
described as fuzzy sets of descriptor elements (e.g., water is present). An RV figure of merit is
related to the normalized intersection of the target set and the response set.
When RV is applied the analysis
procedures vary considerably. In laboratory experiments, much is known
about the target, but in f applications very little target
information is known. Thus, the analysis technique must be modified in
(U) References may be found at the end of this report.
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order to assess the "correct" RV response elements before confirming
evidence can be obtained.
to participate in an experiment
of Lawrence Livermore National
Laboratory using the advanced test accelerator (ATA). The primary
objectives were to demonstrate - remote viewing,
and to apply fuzzy set technology in the analysis
of the data. SRI's activity occurred over a 24-hour period beginning at
0800 on May 7, 1987.
We were asked
conducted during May, 1987
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III METHOD OF APPROACH (U)
T
r
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(U) SRI conducted a 27-hour RV experiment beginning at 0800 on May 7, 1987. The
viewer provided data in four different work periods spaced at 8-hour intervals. The details of
the experiment are described below.
A. (U) Selection of a Remote Viewer
SRI selected Viewer V372 to participate in this experiment
because of his/her 10-year experience as a viewer. In 1979, V372 was
calibrated at SRI as part of a "technology" transfer investigation and
found to possess an RV ability.10 Since then, V372 has participated in
approximately 300F -." RVs. Since SRI does not have access to most
of those data, we conducted a second calibration series, as part of
another program, during FY 1986.
In the 1986 calibration series, the target material was
!sites within a half-hour drive from SRI. A protocol was used
that was similar to the one described above, and a total of 12 RV sessions
were conducted over two weeks. Remote viewing results of the series were
found to be statistically significant and Figure 1 shows one of the three
most successful sessions. It is beyond the scope of this report to
describe this calibration series in detail, but the two-other successful
responses were of the same quality as shown in Figure 1.
B. (U) Target Material
The primary target was the ATA facilityx In
particular, the accelerator itself was targeted during operation with an
external beam.
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We have also identified targets of lesser interest in the
environment. We have designated a wind-power electric generator farm at
hn~.. (6ti~\ 1w~ b j J
Altamont Pass but adjacent tol as a secondary target, and the
main complex, which is farther away geographically but is
functionally associated with(, as a tertiary target.
The intent of this RV experiment was to obtain as much
information as possible about the target environment in general and ATA
external beam operation in particular.
C. (U) Experiment Protocol
Viewer 372 and a viewing monitor were aware that the target
material was of ' r significance and was located within the
greater San Francisco Bay area. They were told that an individual i
described by name and Social Security number
was in the target area during the viewing sessions, and that two members
of the SRI staff' (known to V372 and the monitor) would serve as a "beacon"
and would be at the specific target of interest between 2200 hours on May
7 and 0800 hours on May 8, 1987. (The purpose of the "beacon" person is
to define the target area. Our past experience has shown that viewers
rarely describe the experiences of the "beacon.") Other than this, all
.aspects and details of the experiment were withheld from V372 and the
monitor.
The San Francisco Bay Area is rich in
target possibilities. For example, there are many aerospace companies,
semiconductor manufacturing facilities, particle accelerators (e.g.,
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory complex, Stanford Linear Accelerator), radar
installations, military air fields, and Naval bases. Thus ]t was felt
,i GCMN/ CLLQ
that to have the viewer know that the target was of C interest
and was in the greater Bay Area would not compromise the experiment.
Four sessions were conducted to provide information at
approximately 8-hour intervals during May 7, 1987. The time and
circumstances are as follows:
(1) 0800 May 7--V372 was asked to describe the geographical
area, and the gestalt of the area of interest. He/she was
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also asked to provide as much detail as possible in real
time (i.e., at 0835), and was targeted upon the sponsor's
on-site representative. At this time, the representative
was sleeping (approximately 2 miles from( after having
been awake the entire previous night. Ve';"i0"`
(2) 1010 May 7--V372 was asked to describe details and activity
at the site designated by the sponsor's on-site
representative as of 0000 hours May 7 (the previous night).
(3) 1600 May 7--V372 was asked to describe details and activity
in real time at the site designated by the sponsor's on-site
representative. At this time, this individual was eating
dinner (approximately 2 miles from ,'__ _Q~o 4 -0 V`
(4) 2400 May 7--V372 was asked to describe details and activity
at the site designated by two SRI personnel in real time.
During each session, V372's responses were tape recorded and
he/she was encouraged to draw details whenever possible. Drawings are
contained in Appendix A, and Appendix B contains verbatim transcripts of
the last two sessions and portions of the first two. (Because of
technical difficulties, most of the taped record of the first two viewings
was lost. Since the remaining data are intact and since the drawings from
the first two viewings are complete, this gap is not significant.)
D. (U) Analysis Technique
oAs discussed in Section Ii, quantitative analysis c
poses problems. Any analysis of remote viewing data
must be accomplished within the context of a mission statement.- A system
that is designed to demonstrate remote viewing is inadequate to enable an
assessment and vice versa. A generalized analysis system that
allows for a defined a priori mission statement has been developed under
another program,9 and a brief overview of it follows.
1. (U) Definitions
The most important aspect of any RV data analysis is
the definition of the target and the RV response. For this experiment,
the target is defined as a fuzzy set of target elements T[ek,gk,wk]. The
kth element, ek, in the set is defined by its membership value, ?k, on the
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closed interval [0,1]. The ?k always represents the degree to which ekis
present at the target. For example, suppose that the target is the ATA
facility, and the target element under consideration is the concept of
"testing shielding effectiveness." Its membership value, which is
determined subjectively, is 0.2 indicating that only 20% of that concept
applies to this target. To allow for differing missions, wkis an
arbitrary weighting factor. A% simulation requires that
certain elements be more important than others. For example, the
-energy aspect is very important and is assigned a weight of 5
compared to a cooling tower with a weight of 0.5.
The RV response is similarly defined as a fuzzy set
of response elements R[ek,gk,wk]. The membership values for response
elements, however, have a somewhat different meaning than those for target
elements. Thd ?krepresent the analyst's assessment as to the degree of
presence (on the closed interval [0,1]) of ekin the response. For
declarative statements, ?k= 1 unless V372 volunteers a specific or implied
importance to the overall target. A degree of interpretation is allowed
for non-declarative statements by letting Ak< 1. The response wk are
identical to the target wk. For the purpose of analysis, all target and
information is defined as the fuzzy sets T and R, respectively.
U
'We have defined Accuracy as the percent of the target
material that was described correctly by a response.
defined Reliability (of the viewer) as the percent of
correct. The FM is the product of the two; to obtain
has to describe a large portion of the
Likewise, we have
the response that was
a high FM, a viewer
target material correctly in as
parsimonious a way as possible. In fuzzy set terminology, these
quantities for the jth target/response pair are as follows:
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Accuracy] = aj =
Reliability = r
j j
Z Wk Rj, k
k
Figure of Merit, = M. = a, x r,
The sum over k is called the sigma count in fuzzy set terminology, and is
defined as the,sum of the membership values, ?, for the elements of the
response, target, or their intersection--i.e. , Rj, Tj, and (RjnTj) ,
respectively.
2. (U) Target and Response Data
from the May 7, 1987, ATA experiment. We have defined three element
categories; functions, relationships, and objects. These categories are
used to guide the weighting factors (i.e., the default weights are 1.0,
0.50, and 0.25, respectively), and are used as multipliers of the relative
weights to form the wk.
(U) With such a complex response, a number of options are available for
analysis. Rather than analyzing the data scan by scan, all scans were considered together to
provide the response input to the universe of elements.
(U) Table 1 shows the universe of target/response elements and the formal
definition of T and R. The various scaling weights are shown in parentheses adjacent to the
appropriate factors. The relative weights are derived from SRI's best assessment of the
operational utility of each element. The response membership values, R(?), were determined
from the raw data (see Appendices A and B). The target membership values T(?), were
determined by SRI personnel prior to the start of the experiment. A few elements, however,
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Z Wk (Rj n Tj)k
k
L; Wk Ti.k
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Y Wk (Rj n T)k
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were determined by an SRI analyst on a post hoc basis in order to allow for a more accurate
assessment of reliability.
Table 1
(U) UNIVERSE OF TARGET/RESPONSE ELEMENTS
PRIMARY ELEMENTS (1.0)
Functions (1.0)
energy
Electron accelerator
Operation in air
Test experiment
High intensity electron beam production
Problemg related to vacuum/air
Destructive beam that dissipates quickly in air
Beam ionizes air
Two experiments: one local, one not
Calibration exercises
Testing penetration power in air
Emulation for a much larger scale device
Ultimate aim is to destroy missile parts
Testing shielding effectiveness
Electronics survivability testing
Testing new form of laser
Operation in space
Satellite detection is difficult
Nuclear production of electrons to excite new laser
Output results from nuclear process
Controlled explosion
Laser output in microwave
Relationships (0.75)
Power source above beam line
Linear array of buildings
Tunnel under buildings
One-story buildings
Curvilinear beam line
Electrons flow through beam line
Test equipment both sides of target building
E&M radiation < 10 Angstroms
Ignition at core of sphere
Energy radiates out and is reflected back into sphere
15-foot diameter sphere
Pipes into and out of sphere
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
0.75
T(?)
1
1
1
1
1
1
0.5
0.1
0
0
0
0
R(?)
0
0.1
0.5
0.3
0.2
0.7
1
1
1
1
1
1
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Table 1, Continued
(U) UNIVERSE OF TARGET/RESPONSE ELEMENTS
Element
w
T( ?)
R(g)
PRIMARY ELEMENTS (1.0), continued
Objects (0.5)
External electron beam
2.5
1
0
Very dangerous to humans
2.5
1
1
Atmosphere "glows" when operating
2.5
1
1
Multiple teams of people
2
1
1
E&M radiation
1
1
1
High security area
1
1
1
Beam visible in air
1
1
1
Electron injector
1
1
0.5
Tunnel
1
1
1
Electric -power
0.5
1
1
Control room
0.5
1
0
Monitoring equipment
0.5
1
1
Piping
0.5
1
0.7
Vacuum
0.5
1
1
ATA facility (buildings)
0.5
1
0.4
Shielding
0.5
1
1
Power substation
0.5
1
0.2
Cooling towers
0.5
1
0
Massive door
0.5
1
0
External piping
0.5
1
0
Laser
0.5
1
1
Control computer
0.5
1
0.9
Electron beam
0.5
1
1
Timing is critical
0.5
1
1
Hard target
0.5
0.4
1
Loud noise
0.5
0.3
1
Wave guide
0.5
0.2
1
Free electron laser (not operating)
0.3
1
0.2
Coherent wave
0.3
0.3
1
Roads
U:1
. 1
1
Two events
0.1
0.5
1
Film presentation
0.1
0.1
0.5
Hollow polished (internal) sphere
0.5
0
1
Bundled metal rods
0.5
0
1
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Table 1, Continued
(U) UNIVERSE OF TARGET/RESPONSE ELEMENTS
I
im
Element
w
T(?)
R(g)
SECONDARY ELEMENTS (0.50)
Functions (1.0)
Wind-power electricity generation
2.5
1
0.9
Relationships (0.75)
75
0
1
1
Poles scattered in hills
.
1
13
1
1
Poles connected in a grid
.
Objects (0.5)
Foothills
0.25
1
1
Electrical grid
0.25
25
0
1
1
1
0
8
Rotating blades
Multiple wind generators
.
0.25
1
.
1
TERTIARY ELEMENTS (0.25)
Functions (1.0)
Multipurpose laboratory complex
1.3
1
0.8
Six-story administration building
1
1
1
Relationships (0.75)
0
6
1
1
T-shaped, six-story building
ed building just east of tall building
Round-to
.
0.2
1
0.4
pp
Swimming pool north and east of tall building
0.2
1
0
Large parking lot just west of tall building
0.2
1
1
Linear array of trees adjacent to parking lot
0.2
1
1
Larage, segmented, one-story building complex 0.5
0.2
1
0.2
mile north of tall building
1
Main roads bordering complex
0.2
1
City to west of complex
Main entrance at west of complex
0.2
0.2
1
1
1
0.7
Laboratory is two miles from city
0.2
1
1
City is north of laboratory
0.2
2
0
0.5
1
1
6
0
Air field is southeast of laboratory
.
.
Mountains surround laboratory
0.2
0.6
1
Freeway is north of laboratory
0.2
1
1
Objects (0.5)
0
3
1
1
Tall building
.
1
0
1
1
Parking lot
Linear array of trees
.
0.1
1
1
Road
Many buildings
0.1
0.1
1
1
1
1
Main entrance
Building with cylindrical shaped roof
0.1
0.1
1
1
1
0.4
Air field
0.1
0
05
1
1
1
1
Flat valley
Mountains
.
0.05
1
1
Large mountain
0.1
0
1
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IV RESULTS AND DISCUSSION (U)
Table 2 shows the figure of merit analysis for the ATA
experiment using the fuzzy sets defined in Table 1. The target/response
intersection is shown as JTnRI, and the sigma-count of the target and
response sets are shown as ITS and JRI, respectively. All quantities
include the full weights shown in Table 1. The primary target was the ATA
external electron beam experiment. The secondary target was the adjacent
wind-power generation farm, and the tertiary target was the
laboratory complex and surrounding area. Viewed as separate targets, the -r-
figures of merit of 0.94 and 0.81 for the wind-power farm and the L 9y,!o.
complex respectively are in good agreement with the qualitative
correspondence shown in Figures 2 and 3. Figure 4 shows ad?itiqial d to
on the tertiary target viewing compared to a map of the. area. hese
figures represent data obtained during the 0800 scan and are consistent
with the tasking and location of the beacon person (see page 6). The
relatively lower value of 0.56 for the primary target is also consistent
for the "scattered" nature of the response (see the original transcript in
Appendix B). The combined value of 0.61 reflects the weighting factor in
favor of the primary target.
(S/NF) FIGURE OF MERIT (FM) SUMMARY..
Target Type
IT fRI
ITI
SRI
Acc.
Rel.
FM
PRIMARY
Function
Relation
Object
20.50
1.80
16.86
22.00
4.95
23.00
29.50
5.85
19.21
0.93
0.36
0.73
0.69
0.31
0.88
0.65
0.11
0.64
Total
39.16
49.95
54.56
0.78
0.72
0.56
SECONDARY Total
5.08
5.08
5.38
0.94
1.00
0.94
TERTIARY Total
5.48
6.42
5.76
0.85
0.95
0.81
TOTAL
49.72
61.45
65.70
0.81
0.76
0.61
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I-
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I a&
M w M*
MO`jt4G E GR~ O~{K.
IN P FORM OF
I' ~
S~ PNy ~
V0,g1
Qo
FIGURE 2 (U) PART OF THE 0800 RESPONSE COMPARED WITH PHOTOGRAPH OF THE
ALTAMONT WIND-POWER ELECTRIC GENERATION FARM
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I. D. 372
FIGURE 3 (U) PART OF THE 0800 RESPONSE COMPARED TO THE WEST GATE OF
Al 4 r4 f~ -1-, ,
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CPYRGHT
J~IIAWIII
S31IIN L 3ONVISIO 'XOHddV
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Viewer 372 responded with a single concept to the primary
target that was incorrect; it contained, however, many individual elements
that were correct. One aspect of RV responses that has been a recurring
theme is that a surprise element (to the viewer) frequently indicates
correct information about the site. In this experiment, the following
sentence is embedded in a lot of incorrect data (see page B-18 of the 2400
scan in the transcript, Appendix B):
"What I keep wanting to do, is I keep wanting to put the
whole thing into an apparatus that captures electrons and
accelerates them."
fi
r
This sentence appears in a general discussion of a "Star Trek" phaser
system initiated by controlled nuclear explosions, and represents a
significant cognitive surprise. It is important to determine whether or
not this type of linguistic surprise might serve as a reliability
indicator.
Long-standing difficulties in applying the RV phenomena to
applications are at least twofold. In a lengthy response,
those elements of genuine I f significance must be identified a
priori. Second, even excellent examples of remote viewing do not
necessarily imply usefulness. As an example of the latter,
consider the response to the Altamont pass wind-power generation farm. It
is an excellent example of remote viewing, but it is not of
value.
-In summary, V372's response to the ATA experiment has mixed
results. Even though there are excellent examples of remote viewing, the
value is mixed. It does not appear to be the case that V372
simply responded with everything he/she knows about technical material.
This viewer has been involved with all kinds of technical activity in past
careers. Yet, hidden among a significant amount of incorrect data, lies a
nearly complete description of the external electron beam and details of
the ATA experiment of May 7, 1987.
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APPENDIX A (U)
Remote Viewing Response (Drawings)
May 1987
(This Appendix Is CLASSIFIED)
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REFERENCES (U)
1. Puthoff, H. E. and Targ, R., "Perceptual Augmentation Techniques (U)," Final Report,
SRI Project 3183, SRI International, Menlo Park, California (December 1975) SECRET.
2. Puthoff, H. E. and Targ, R., "A Perceptual Channel for Information Transfer Over
Kilometer Distances: Historical Perspective and Recent Research," Proceedings of the
IEEE, Vol. 64, No. 3 (March 1976) UNCLASSIFIED.
3. Puthoff, H. E., et al., "Advanced Threat Technique Assessment (U)," Final Report, SRI
Project 5309, SRI International, Menlo Park, California (October 1978)
SECRET/NOFORN.
4. Jahn, R. G., "The Persistent Paradox of Psychic Phenomena: An Engineering
Perspective," Proceedings of the IEEE, Vol. 70, No. 2, pp. 136-170 (1982).
UNCLASSIFIED
5. Puthoff, H. E., "RV Reliability, Enhancement, and Evaluation (U)," Final Report, SRI
Project 4028-1, SRI International, Menlo Park, California (January 1984)
SECRET/NOFORN.
6. May, E. C., "A Remote Viewing Evaluation Protocol (U)," Final Report (revised), SRI
Project 4028, SRI International, Menlo Park, California (July 1983) SECRET/NOFORN.
7. May, E. C., Humphrey, B. S., and Puthoff, H. E., "An Automated RV Evaluation
Procedure (U)," Final Report, SRI Project 7408, SRI International, Menlo Park,
California (May 1985) SECRET/NOFORN.
8. May, E. C., Humphrey, B. S., and Mathews, C., "A Figure of Merit Analysis for
Free-Response Material," Proceedings of the 28th Annual Convention of the
Parapsychological Association, pp. 343-354, Tufts University, Medford, Massachusetts
(August 1985) UNCLASSIFIED.
9. Humphrey, B. S., Trask, V. V., May, E. C., and Thomson M. J., "Remote Viewing
Evaluation Techniques (U)," Final Report--Objective A, Task 4, SRI Project 1291, SRI
International, Menlo Park, California (December 1986) SECRET/NOFORN.
10. Targ, R., Puthoff, H. E., Humphrey, B. S., and May, E. C., "Special Orientation
Techniques (U)," Final Report, SRI Project 8465, SRI International, Menlo Park,
California (June 1980) SECRET/NOFORN.
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APPENDIX B (U)
Remote Viewing Response (Transcript)
May 1987
(This Appendix is i -`
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SESSION 1, 8:35 a.m. (U)
May, 1987 (U)
M: Just to reiterate what was said earlier, we do have extensive
L, otos and information about the site currently locked up in the
COTR's safe. The name of the person who is acting as a beacon at this
point in time is XXXXXX. He is a Physicist. He is on the site and he
has been there since 8:00 this morning and will be there for a period
of time. This first session is a real time session. We are going to
be doing 4 total sessions. We will be doing one at 4:00 this
afternoon and one at midnight. Between now and 4:00 this afternoon
there will be another one that will be a retrocognitive one to
midnight of last night.
(S/NF)?Now, to start off, we are first of all interested in the
geographical area, we are interested in the gestalt of the area, what
is the area like. We are interested in the manmade sorts of things in
the area. And then we are going to focus in on items of interest in
as much detail as possible. What's the function of the place and
what's happening. And, what is the difference between what's
happening now and what's happening later. That will be kind of a
summary thing we'll do at midnight tonight. But generally anything of
specific interest at this particular point in time in terms of the
activity
V:
M:
V:
This time?
Right now. Yep.
jOK, what
M:
_ j So anytime you're ready to start, why...are there any other
V:
M:
questio
J
ns?
No. What I'm gonna do is
Just prepare yourself, cause I know
you had a
rough night.
V:
l
So, what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna
probably
sketch everything
light
y in pencil.
V: An then I will ink it in afterwords.
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M: 11 OK.
V: (Because I do more accurate drawing in pencil than I do in ink.
M: OK, let me get you a pencil then.
V: I have one.
M: Oh, OK. (They both speak at once here and it is garbled.) We
gotta be precise in our detail here. So we can take as long as we
want, there is no time limit on what we're doing. But we will try to
bring some closure to each one of the four sessions.
V: ( OK. Some kind of a general layout here, I guess. This is a
very light pencil. I brought a Stephen King book if you get bored.
We'll start with something real dynamic like a line that we'll call a
road. Uh, that doesn't feel right. You got an eraser somewhere? (M
get eraser.) Thanks. A road, parking area, building. There seems to
be, uh, there seems to be, is that running?
M: Um, hum.
V: There seems to be, um, a whole lot more buildings than I'm
drawing. But what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to draw buildings
that are meaningful.
M: Um, hum.
V: Versus buildings that are useless. By useless I mean that
there is probably a million buildings here which have a desk and
typical... this office, that office type of arrangement. (Could not
make out what he said after this.)
M: L U So, do you mean that what you're drawing here are buildings
that are important to the function that we're after here?
V: Exactly.
V: And, uh, in trying to do this, I'm trying to put it in...(tape
cuts out - it's about 99 on the counter)
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SESSION 2, 10:10 a.m. (U)
May, 1987 (U)
197_
M: OK, it's about 10 minutes after, 12 minutes after 10.
V: Right.
M: May 7. And what we're about to do now is the
retrocog...retrocognition part of the outbound experiment that we're
working on, and that involves going back to 12:00 last night,
midnight, May 6 and giving a description of what was happening at this
site at that time that is of special interest to us during this
targeting period.
initial session we were tar etin they _'yJ'oLCI1L =eeling, uh, in the
g g general layout onto the (tape
cuts out here, in 30's on counter)
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SESSION
3, 4:00 p.m. (U)
May 7, 1987 (U)
M: [ 7 So, disregard what you did this morning, in terms of trying to
add to it
V: J OK.
M: And focus on the activity and what expands out from that.
V: ( ) OK,.
M: Allright.
V: (Lots of silence) Hmmmmm. Getting an impression of, uh,
really laud, loud noise like a like a bull-horn on a intercom-type of
speaker system. Somebody's talking through it. There's an and that
uh, there's an echo like its in a large day type of area. There is
uh...uh...I'm trying to think of a way of describing this perception.
I'm looking at a very long box. Uh, square tube box, uh, its uh, let
me think about this a minute It's really an interesting thing - I
can't, uh, I can't quite fasten it to anything. It's kind of like a.
It doesn't start out straight - it starts out funny, ah, weird, it
starts out - it's got a joint system and then it goes straight... it
does something like this. But this, there's something wrong with
this. I feel like I'm trying to describe in detail something that's
very esoteric. It's, uh, it's, this thing's squared - it has squared
corners and edges and what not.
M: F Um-hum.
V: ) Uh, very much like a wave guide-type of thing.
M: ) Um-hum.
V: And, it has something flowing through it.
M: see.
V: 2 That's something flowing through it that's, uh, not a very
lengthy wave form. It's like a very short wave form. Its guided
through this thing and it, and it, comes down at the end of this thing
and washes across like a row of, like, uh, I want to say that there's
a spiral at the end like. And there's like a row of, of things
sticking out at the end of this spiral. They, they're densely packed.
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M: Yeah.
V: I But these are like electrons coming down this, this tube and
they they're washing across this little batch of wire.
M: It's a
3 - particle beam in other words of some sort.
V: jt
Yeah. But that's not correct - it's more I wouldn't call it a
particle beam - it's, it's, these rods are then emitting a really
short wave-type of output. A really short wave thing. A we're
talking a wave form that, that it is super, super short.
M: Um-hum.
V: Uh, it's a ray, OK, some kind of a ray. But it's a real short
wave. Shorter wave than a microwave. A microwave is pretty short
short wave. This is shorter. I don't even know what microwave is.
Microwave is (couldn't get word here). I can't remember - this is
even shorter, this is real short wave stuff. We're talking about, I
don't know in angstroms, we're talking something less than 10
angstroms. Which is real short. That would be less than,, less than
10 angstroms probably. Anyway, it bunches together and what happens
is you get this, this coherency coming out the end, this coherent wave
front, if you will, and it actually, it actually, uh, I get the
feeling like this is a inside of a tube.
M: OK.
And they're like thick wire - real thick wire - only they're not wire.
It's, it's some kind of like special alloy or special metal or special
something. They're fixed but they're bunched. And they're all
generally pointing in the same direction and, uh, this stuff comes
down and washes around or over and through this. And when it hits the
tips of these things, it, uh, it does the same thing that a laser
does. It excites, it excites these, these metal rods. But they
don't, uh, it's not like glass tubes in a laser - these are not like
gas-filled tubes or have the big thing that blows stuff in and sucks
things out, you know, the gas exchange where you're exciting a whole
bunch of, uh, electrons or something like that...
V: This whole thing is compressed inside of a tube. And the tube
is a vacuum or as near a vacuum as you can get. And it extends
outward to, uh, to a target place.
M: Do you have any feeling for scale on that?
M: Room size, or bigger?
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V: No, but the tube is
probably something on the order of, uh,
uh, I'll say 3 feet in diameter. It's really interesting because I, I
see the tube there but then sometimes I don't see the tube. I see it
operating in an aeroplace space and then I sometimes see it operating
in air which is real interesting. What happens when it operates in
air is the air molecules actually burn up. It super heats the air
molecules, they actually self-destruct or excite themselves out of the
way or something.
M: \ Um-hum.
V: And, and I get the feeling that I, you can actually see it
with your eyes. This ray, when this thing comes out in air molecules.
It's like it doesn't shoot out of the end in a race along to the
target it's like the whole thing past the ray slowly comes in the
beam. It's like it appears, you know, this entire length of it here
appears like its super heating the air molecules that it's going
through to the point that they actually white-out in some way.
M. C Um-hum.
V: ( q) And down on the other end is the target and, uh, I'm trying to
determine what that target thing is. I'm gonna do a better picture on
page two.
M: { OK.
V: ( I see this in a vacuum sometimes, and I see it also
going
through specialized gases like, like they're testing to see its
penetration power through different gaseous mixtures ah different
mixtures of oxygen or atmosphere or something. And, uh, I also get, I
get the feeling like the target's hard - it, it's like of a hard
target. And, and, by that I mean like metal - it's a metallic target,
uh, varying degrees of thickness, shielding, and, uh, parts of the
target being tested are covered with solid state electronics, chip
electronics, uh, it's like pointing it at your home computers to see
if you could burn your home computer up and then putting your home
computer at a varying or differing modalities of shielding to see what
effect it has on its capacity to operate. Um, I, I get the feeling
like this is really, this thing is really hazardous to human life.
vc ,/I mean I wouldn't stand in front of this sucker. This is,
his is really I mean, it will really damage a hard target, but it
ain't nothing like it will do to the human body, I mean, it will just
cook, it will just vaporize the human body so to speak. Soft targets
wouldn't be instant inferno in front of it. It actually boils the air
molecules in front of it. Uh, but that's not exactly right, it's like
they all boil simultaneously, all the way down the line.
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M: Um-hum.
V: { It's like these, it's such, this 10 or less Angstroms of wave
front are so - the wave and frequency is so small that, uh, the, uh,
air molecules get in the way simply because they are getting sighted
by it. So it turns the air molecules into a frothing mass. And it
has to do with, uh, the real main function we're talking about here is
these, these metallic - I keep wanting to say metallic - I guess maybe
because they've got so much oxide in them. They're like, they're like
meant to be destroyed by this thing. When electrons hit these, these
thick wires, this mass of material, what happens is this mass of
material, uh, lases out or puts out this coherent wave front, and, it
only does it for just so long and then it, it burns up - it's no good
anymore - or it's, uh, it, it does something to it, um, its like a
cluster of wires. This mass of oxide material all held together but
they're, but they're drawn out and in straighter fibers like. I think
that's to give direction to the wave, the coherent wave fronts or
something - it's a huge mass of electrons that's forced across the,
this - I wanta say electrons, anyway I don't what the hell is. And I
go back up this line and I, I can't help but go back to that, you
know, that circular sphere which is...
M: Yeah .
V: ... in the other building. But, I'm getting a real interesting
picture of this other sphere, uh,
M: I know. This is, this is another building... somehow....
V: Yeah. This is in, we're now in C building...
M: Oh, that's in C building.
V: This is in C building here. This, if I remember
right...somewhere between here and here is the wall of C building,
right, I'm not sure if that's not in B building and the tube extends
through that connector piece in the C building and._C building is
predominantly the target building - where the target's contained or
held.
M: / Uh-huh.
V: 't' - But you know all the test equipment is set up on both sides of
the target building. This is, I'm getting a real interesting
perception of this now. It's one I didn't have earlier.
M: -'OK. Let's do something that's changed, or, or...
V: Essentially what it amounts to is I'm seeing a circle, you
know, and inside the circle - I wish I could draw this, ha, uh, inside
the circle the circle's split like, uh, into all these different
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V:
Yes.
M: , F7 So this is kind of a production phase and its routed through
were and here...
V: Generates this ray, this, uh, yeah, yeah.
V: _1 And, uh, uh, this, it takes these megalithic lasers to light
this.
M: Um-hum.
V: For this to cause this.
M: Um-hum.
V: ' And the output of this sucker right here is
in terms of its wave front, uh, but this thing rapidlquite y loses, uh'tive
strength over distance because of the air molecules and but for test
purposes,'uh, that's it, I just said a key thing. This is a testing
apparatus for the concept perhaps.
M: L,I Um-hum.
V: L In other words, somehow, uh, this is emulating the
that would be done in a, in a more large way. In a huge way, uh s this
o
is like a little example of something, uh, I'm trying, I'm trying to
figure out what the - as best I can figure on a hard target what
they're trying to do is they're to effect, actually physically destroy
this hard target. And what we're talking in hardened that it's
heavily shielded, the solid state electronics of this target are
heavily shielded, protected, uh, what's interesting there's, god, this
is really neat because this unfolding - there's a twofold, there's a
twofold thing about - I wanta write something else down before I
forget it - this is uh, test vehicle for concept. In the hard target
there's a twofold fall out from this, one is, you find out can a hard
target be destroyed, or at least made dysfunctional, but b, you find
out can you build a hard target that can't be dysfunctional, made
dysfunctional. So it's like you get a twofold benefit out of this -
testing this thing.
M: J Sounds like it could be a competitive process - one team
working on trying to make it invincible and one working on attempting
to penetrate it.
11__ It's like exactly right, you've got, you've got, well, you've
got a whole number of different things here. You've got this machine
which we'll call A machine, uh, producing larger amounts of power.
Then you've got a B problem which is stripping off the power for use
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in a new way of lasing we'll call it. Then you've got this machine
which is a whole new form of luminous laser. I'm not sure laser's
right. There's a different word. Phaser, phaser. That's what they
use on Star Trek.
M: Ha! Then it was something more advanced than a laser.
V: ii Yeah, it's like next generation. It's a phaser beam. And
it's very possible that it might be in a microwave region because
microwave keeps popping in my mind, but I don't think so.
M: j Um-hum.
V: Uh, I think we don't need all of this to do the kinds of
outputs in the microwave region that we could do to create this
effect. Uh, I think microwave is, uh, the problem with microwave is
there is no way to generate a coherent microwave front but then I
might be wrong about that. But I think this is a different kind of
wave. This is really a coherent wave. And the key here in part C of
the problem is these little metallic rods or wires or whatever use
this bundle of stuff is - that's the key to it. And, uh, I look at
this and I, this concept down here and I get an impression of, I just
want to put a big thing like this that says "Focus here." Which is
real interesting like this is deliberately controlled nuclear
explosion and you focus it all right here. That's a wave front I keep
wanting to draw esoterically - I don't know how to draw it
mechanically.
M: l Well, when you say esoterically what do you mean by that?
V: J Meaning that, uh, I think, I think the concept's really down,
17think in terms of, of what's going on here in the event. The
concept's really ironed out. I think where there's a problem is - the
timing. Let me write that down.
having a real problem with
subsequent to that - there
which we'll call 1-A. The
3 Yeah.
Timing is, uh,
4 OK.
I say to myself it's impossible to do that but then...
the
And in the time that they're
timing because element A, well
is some other thing back here called lasers
1-A ignites A. A is actually destroying C
eating it up. This - outside this bottle or this
control mechanism this mirrored sphere, uh, A couldn't happen. It
couldn't happen and if it did it would be out of control. And in the
event when it does happen inside this control sphere, it's, uh,
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providing sufficient excitation to see, to test the concept. But it
isn't full blown. As much as, I mean, we're talking a really complex
thing that probably took years and years and years and
but it's only a test vehicle for the reality of the concyearld,
epts tTheureal
concept is ten fold removed in terms of complexity or difficulty from
this. It all has to do with timing. Because in the real concept
what's happening in A, this little bitty fire here, we're talking
about increasing that on a magnitude of 10-12 which is really up
there, which means that there isn't a container that's gonna hold it,
and I don't know how they're gonna do that which is real interesting.
But you can see the megalithic increase in the output...
M: Sure.
V: ...up here through this, this, these key elements. If they
were increased, if this is, we're talking billions and billions of
lots of power going to this test vehicle, and you can imagine what a
ten fold increase in power to the output of this thing would be, I
mean, just... unbelievably destructive. That essentially what I'm
getting;
M: OK.
V: What's interesting is I - I think all the elements of this are
being tested, that's what's going on right now. They're not firing it
up, they're testing all the elements.
M: j I see.
V: ( ! Everything's being fine tuned and calibrated. The test is yet
to come. It's all being fine tuned and calibrated.
M: r \ It would be analogous to
for a launch or something
like that where there's lots-of activity and...
V: Yeah.
M: L ...and things being done to test the component parts of it -
to make sure they're in working order.
4l Uh, this, this would be amazing to watch - I mean talk about
feedback. I mean, when they fire this sucker up the, the, the, uh,
the atmosphere will glow around it.
M: I see, so there is something, there really is something to
see.
Oh, sure.
M: l It's not just uh...watch the dials kind of thing...
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V: 1 ^a Oh, no, mc_ _ think there's an awful lot of dial watching
involved in it ix, --ms of the time and sequences and everything
trying to perfect ie, the actual outcome, but in terms of, uh, and
watching the buses end of this sucker, uh, I'll bet ya it boils
the, uh, it boils Se atmosphere around it.
M: jJ Hmmm.
V: I'll bet actually see this, this, out of there - i:.-= ~ phaser type wave come
just, or just appear between between that and the
target - it actua--:.,t looks like it's boiling and the atmosphere around
it, which would c=%---ate a white haze or something, uh, I'll bet ya
that's visible. =--`l bet ya there isn't very much of a hard target to
stand against it. wouldn't explode itself. It's molecules would
just become so exc ;t ed by it that it would literally implode or
explode.
M: Hmmm, I'd curious as to whether something like that would
be detected outside of this environment?
.--...~~.,, -,G proo.Lem is, and it has something
do with, the vac:=Um, using a vacuum tube...
? J) Um, hum.
V: ... or testing it in molecular air, uh, the problem I think is
the wave format is'
s so short that the distance is critical... yeah.
"W V: I I mean it's OK to test it on th
e in
an atmosphere but in deep space, for instance,cit would be really
effective because there would be no air molecules to block it. But on
the surface of the earth if you tested it the wave components, the
components of the Wave are too short so they're sucked up by the air
molecules.
M: T Oh, I see.
V: ~So, when you get such a cushioning effect from the surrounding
atmosphere that if you were to back off say 30 miles from this it
would be totally undetected, undetectable, it just wouldn't be putting
anything out, uh, it wouldn't be giving anything out that you could
detect. So, in terms of detecting at a distance, say if you were to,
run a satellite over this area to try and detect what was going on it
would be damn near impossible to do that.
M: 1 7-7 um, hmm.
V: can certainly detect it in space, though. If you had your
detector in space and this was operating in space that would be the
last thing saw... that would be the last thing you would detect before
it ate you, uh, it's really interesting. I also think one of the
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other problems possibly with this, I get a feeling like, uh, the wave
front on this is also highly effected by gravitational pull, things
like that. Things that you don't normally have to worry about with
light, photon-type activity. You know on a standard a laser outside
the fact that the laser gets really weak over distance. Well, this
will get weak over distance unless it's in a vacuum. If you're in a
vacuum like in space or near vacuum, like space, then the distance on
this is really great in terms of power. I was just seeing these hard
targets being literally shaking inside out, it's like the molecules
inside the hard targets were just vibrating instantly into, into, uh,
such a hypervolic action that don't even stay glued together. They
just vaporized - the hard target, uh, of course, the harder the target
the less it's damaged, but there's still an awful lot of damage, uh,
plus there's another thing. The, the real, it's all, the whole
thing's got experimental problems, but the real problems, the real
crux, the state-of-the-art stuff is right here in C which is these,
these components right here. They get bathed by the output of the,
the control exposure chamber, but these little rods or wires or bundle
of whatever they are, sticks, metallic oxide, sticks or whatever,
these anodes...
M: Um, hmm.
V: I don't know if anodes is the proper word. I'm reminded of,
`This is really crazy - the association, but on the bottom of a boat,
to keep the metal on your boat from being eaten away through corrosion
and what not you put these little nodes so that, you know, the salt
water, they're soft metals, the salt water attacks those first, you
see, and eats those away, and so you use the rest of the metal on your
boat - I'm not even explaining that right, but that's what I get a
feeling about these, is that these actually attract the electron
stream or whatever it is and, and, the collision of the electrons or
whatever with the molecular components of these oxide tubes or
whatever...
M: 7 Um, hmm.
V: ..produces this really intense ten fold increase or ten
thousand fold increase wave front output. They get real excited and
they put these waves out. So it operates very much like a laser, but
it ain't a laser. It's, it's more like a phaser, you know. I don't
know how to explain that. It's a different kind of wave than coherent
light waves.
M: Yeah.
V: It's in a different frequency spectrum altogether.
M: j Jit sounds like, it sounds almost like instead of, uh,
transmitting light, you're transmitting energy.
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V: 7 Yeah, right, exactly, absolutely, that's exactly what we're
talking about here is an energy laser instead of a light laser. But
it takes, it takes, this huge complex system of light wave lasers to
ignite this controlled explosion in this sphere of mirrors and then
that is absolutely forced to fold down upon itself to produce even
larger amounts of energy and then energy which is really seeking to
expand outwards produces these orbits of electron matter or whatever
that are stripped of them to bathe these rods to produce some other
form of laser. (M speaks but can't understand.) Yeah, but this, this
part can't get, I don't if it's because it's so short and looks real
complex...
Um, hmm.
V: ,...or if it's because it's like a segmented tube.
M: ) It's funny because that's where you started.
V: ] Yeah, and it's a real complex segmented tube of some kind.
M: J Una, OK.
V: But it necks down there, it becomes very focused.
M: i7Oh, I see.
V: !] But I think it's strictly a vehicle to get these, these
electrons out of here over to here. Some electron wave guide for lack
of a better word.
M: jHmmm. Is it, but, it's a transportation medium, you would
say, it's not something that, that modifies the...
V: 7 No, it, doesn't, I don't think it modifies it in any way. As
a matter of fact, there may be a huge electromagnetic field wrapped
around it...
L
7 Oh, I see.
L. 3 ... in order to get the electrons to travel down it, or stay
within it. You know, it compacts them maybe and transports them. As
a matter of fact, it, the reason why it's segmented may be because it
coils around this sphere. Actually, it comes out of this sphere in a
coil and then dumps straight into that one. But I feel like they're
separate places. They may, ah, shoot. Uh, I know when this stuff's
fired there's nobody in the room. At least this kid wouldn't be
around. No, I wouldn't mind being on the opposite end observing, you
know, not on the end of it but to the side observing the impact area
or the target area, that would be really interesting because I think
it's very coherent, very directed. I don't think there's anybody down
there at all. I think it's probably all watched with TV's, uh, I
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can't imagine like if element C loses it's coherent wave front it's no
longer putting waves out in front of it and just starts putting it out
sporadically in all different directions, it would kill everything
within so many feet. I suspect that this element is packed in, uh,
built inside a block house concrete-type of place, and that's why I
think this wave guide is used to get the electrons over there. I keep
wanting to say electrons but I don't think that's what they are -
highly excited matter, let's put it that way.
M: So now if you were to step back from this perspective a little
'bit, how is this all taking place or does it have any relationship to
what we did this morning in any way or is this a process that's going
on in totally different part of the compound or a totally different
place, or where, where are we now if we expand out from this a little
bit?
V: ( ) OK, A would be in the B building. C is in C building.
M: J OK, so then,,
V: 0t, or, maybe C is in a connector part and the target's in C
building.
M: i I see.
V: ( Test equipment's on both sides of the hard target area, uh, I
get the feeling that C building is basically a block house type, uh,
type of place. But, but, then I also have to say and I go back to
multiple teams which I should put down here, uh, multiple teams, uh,
there's just a whole lot going on here, you know like A it's a whole
different team of folks, and there goal has nothing to do with C, uh,
A folks over here, their primary goal as a team is to fire up this
controlled explosive device and maintain it put out ever larger
increasing amounts of energy from it. Uh, then there's a whole
different team that's playing with this, this phaser thing down here.
And within the phaser team there's a whole different team that's
concerned with trying to find a more stable, stable bundle of wires.
A more stabilized bundle. A more focused output device. Then there's
2 teams an A and B team at the hard target site. One is trying to
destroy the hard target no matter how it's shielded and the other's
trying to shield it no matter how hard they try to destroy it. And,
so there's 2 sub-teams there. Uh, simply by changing, I keep saying
these are the key, this bundle, this bundle of wires, this bundle of
rods or whatever, by simply changing those, you change the entire
output wave front, in other words whatever is in inserted here is what
determines the wave, uh, how many angstroms it is, uh, how much energy
output there is, its coherency, all these different things, uh, and I
keep, uh, one of the other things I keep finding very interesting is
the fact that uh, in terms of controlled explosion, the enormous
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amount of power this puts out in relationship to how it excites this
is nothing compared to what the real machine will do. I feel like
this is all just a mock up. A test mock up. This is what we can do
within bounds of, uh, within bounds of control, or within bounds of
experimentation. If you were to build the real machine, uh, and put
it in orbit or something it would be far less complicated on one hand
and on the other hand it would be even more complicated, uh, but its
power would be equivalent to this - it would be 10 times 10 more
powerful output. You could literally put a wall up - a big glass wall
that nothing could fly through it. An umbrella type of front. You
can imagine a huge bundle of key rods or whatever each one putting
out, each one putting out a very tiny beam that 2,000 miles away would
be much wider and broader...
M: ( 3 I see.
V: L And, uh, very intense all side by side you know its putting up
this front, like an arc so many miles high and so many miles wide,
and, uh:
M: A -shield type thing.
V: j Yeah, but it wouldn't last long.
M: 1 Oh, I see.
V: JIt wouldn't be, you'd wait until the last second type thing,
and it would present this wall and it would last maybe seconds. But
anything in a depth of say 300 miles would be just vaporized, it would
be like a curtain that would appear and disappear, uh, really, really
Star Trek stuff, man, this is really exciting Star Trek stuff. I wish
I could figure 2 things out in more detail. And maybe I well, maybe
that will be something...
Yeah, maybe that will come tonight.
V: 7 It will come tonight, yeah.
M: J Yeah.
V: 3 But, uh, that's basically it, I guess.
M: lOK.
V: I j So, I'm gonna try to render something more - maybe I'll leave
41-fiis alone. I'm afraid to mess with this.
M: ~OK.
V: ( "I'll just darken it in.
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OK, allright, we will stop the tape for this one, that's fine.
Tonight we're gonna have XXXX and the SRI folks all there.
All, watching this sucker go off.
Seeing whatever is going on.
V: Maybe they'll all be standing around with their thumbs in
`heir ears saying well it should have.
M: 7 That's true.
V: J We'll wait and be surprised. I know want their electric bill
this place, I'll tell you that.
M: 7 Makes your electric bill look kind of
piddly, does it?
V: It sure does.
M: ;;J By comparison.
a
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I tno
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SESSION 4, 12:00 p.m. (U)
May 7, 1987 (U)
Ir
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nu
or so get yourself situated. XXXXX is on site again as
th
are
e SRI
staff members. They'll be acting as beacons in this, uh, during this
pass and they'll be observing, watching the event that or an event
that is taking place at this time and your job is to give a
description of that, of what's happening there, what's of interest to
them right now as they're at the site.
V: (. , Hmm. OK, let's see. Um. I'm trying to, it, uh,
r al interesting imprints here. I, uh, I getting a
kind of
know, t o of
interesting, uh, I want to say that I'm, you get
that t I'm
w
envisior}ing this, this, uh phaser-type of thing, but that's, I'm, I'm
seeing soimething a little different...
M: t. Um-hum.
V: / Um, um, uh, hum. I feel like I'm stuck between an overlay, an
analytic overlay and an actual event..
Um-hum.
F And, I don't know how to rectify that.
,3Can't quite sort it out?
V: ?No. It's kind of like, an event but it's a, kind of like
it's on film too.
M: Hum.
V: 1 Which is kind of interesting.
M: Um-hum.
V: , Uh, I'm kinda torn between whether I'm seeing like a remote,
an event remote to that actual place being observed there or one
that's on film, or one that's on film combined with an actual event
going on there. I don't know how to explain that. Uh, sort of a
package deal, it's kind of like, uh, uh, I keep getting, uh, like
combination of two things - one's local and one isn't.
M: J Hum.
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V: 7 Uh, one's observing something going on there and the other's
observing something going on somewhere else that's related.
M: ( So it's like maybe two sides that are involved.
V: Yeah, it's kind of like there's two sides involved. The, uh,
except they both mean the same thing, uh, I can't tell if one's real
time or not.
M: ) Are they both participating in, in a common event, or.
V: - It's sort of a common event.
M: 1 Uh-huh.
V: J I'll think about it for a couple of minutes. You can, rather
than waste the tape - shut that off for a second.
M: )3 All right.
1
V:
M:
V:
70i . ve me about a minute and I'll tell you when to start up.
OK.
I'm getting two things. First off I'm getting a presentation
of a film showing a device being tested somewhere else and then that's
followed up with demonstration of this, this capacity, this, uh, uh,
phaser-type of radiation machine showing it's effect on a specific
kind of target. So it's like a two-part thing. Only one part is done
somewhere else. And, and, I keep getting an impression of a place
even further in the desert, OK, and what's interesting about it is is
surrounded with, uh, hundreds of like individual, uh, storage bunkers,
like everywhere. i think, I think what we're talking about here is,
uh, uh, let's see, I'm having trouble defining between demonstration
of this device and, and a real, well they're botK real,'but one was
done beforehand, and one is being done now. And the one that was done
beforehand was actually a device. It was really a, a, and I keep
saying device, I'm talking what I'm talking about is a bomb. It was
actually used in a demonstration type of effect and, uh, it was like
two ended, it was double ended. It had one end was, was an actual
bomb that produced, that produces or produced an output that initiated
a second bomb. It produced an output that initiated this ray, if you
will, but it was all done, uh, like in an underground test. And then
they had films of this and they showed the outputs of this and they're
going into a live demonstration using this laser to initiate very much
the same kind of outputs only on a much smaller scale, so, uh, we're
essentially talking about two kinds of devices doing the same thing,
one on a large order of magnitude, one on a small order of magnitude.
M: Um-hum.
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V:_, j And, uh. I'm getting a picture of, I'm getting a mental image
of this device. thing that they use, uh, for like the canned
demonstration, film demonstration. And it's, uh, it's uh, that's not
right. Do we :rave an eraser? Let's do it this way, uh, um,
something's not right about that. It's more like, uh, it's like an
underground thi.-ig that's, uh, demonstrated there's like a-uh, we'll
call this an initiation device. And what happens is this thing goes
off and its fastened to a little short piece of tubing that is very
much like a wave guide and what it does is it focuses, um, this is,
uh, focus for, focus for, it's the first thing I'm trying, what's the
first thing that happens from like a thermonuclear device like a
thermonuclear device, it's not even a thermonuclear it's a nuclear
device. The first thing that happens is there's a huge output of
neutrons and it goes into a second device and the second device is a,
uh, thermo target. And then this ignites, OK. And that becomes like
a thermonuclear type of device and that goes off and then fastened to
the end of this is this cluster of these, those rods, whatever you
want to call them. Little lasing type things.
M: Um-hum.
V: Q, fJ And they produce a massive output as they're enveloped.
Lasing rods produce like that. This output. And this goes down a,
uh, this whole thing takes place in a chamber under ground and this
goes down a tunnel and at the other end of this tunnel you're down
let's say it's a, this is ground level. And you get down here in this
chamber where they do this and it shoots down this tunnel a few
thousand feet. Meanwhile, this thing's expanding over here - it's
actually exploding, but it happens so fast, uh, this explodes but
before this destroys this, it ignites it, with this massive focus of
neutrons. When this ignites it lases these which produces the output
of, uh, gamma rays or whatever they are. As that's being enveloped
these rays are racing down this tunnel which has blocks in it. And
right behind these rays going down the tunnel, these blocks are
closing. And down here at the end is a chamber of targets so also
there's sensing equipment down here so there's a secondary tunnel down
here. And, uh, sensing equipment we'll say sensing. This is the
actual, uh, this is the actual detonation place. So this is all
destroyed here, but it sends radiation down this tunnel and behind
this radiation which is all very, I mean, everything's all
instantaneous almost speed of light and this always happens, these
shafts close down behind it to minimize damage to the target area. So
the only thing arrives down at the target area are the rays from this
thing which then shadow the target, and, and, this is, this is, uh,
essentially we'll call this Demo One. That's, uh, done at a remote
site, of the site, Air' ;Base, uh, lots of large bunkers. Some
are out in the desert. That's Demo One.
IF 1 Then you get Demo Two. Demo One shows this is what it looks
like on a full scale. Demo Two shows a more controlled thing going on
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M: ( j) Is it the same one you were having trouble with this
afternoon...
V: Yeah, um-hum.
V: A bat I keep wanting to do, is I keep wanting to put the whole
thing into an apparatus that captures electrons and accelerates them.
M: Um-hum.
V: C. f But, then I don't know how to do, I don't know I'm gonna do
that', it's, it's almost as if, it's almost as if there's a, like a,
this thing wrapped around like this, uh, this being. I'm really
having a problem with this - I keep wanting to wrap something around
this sphere right here.
M: ` Um-hum.
V: And, and, the essential step is that it strips, as electrons
are forced outwards in this sphere, they are collected in this trough
that accelerates them in a circle and what it essentially does it
forces them around, uh, in a, in a magnetic, electromagnetic field.
And the electromagnetic field, uh, because it, it kicks them into a
tighter concentric circle, accelerates them. So when they exit the
end, these electrons are not only, uh, at a very high energy anyway
because of the amount of that, they, they're really moving, uh, and
then coming out of the end of this thing they strike these tubes in
some way. It really fires these tubes up. They're like pumped across
these tubes, uh, I'm having a lot of trouble drawing how that's done.
M: 3 Um-hum, um-hum.
Uh, and these, these tubes are bundled, but they're bundled in
a crazy way. They're bundled so that one assists the other
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at the lab. And essentially what you got is, uh, this thing all
hooked up to all these input, all these different things, lasers, are
hooked into this sphere as I, as I drew before.
(S/NF) And it in turn produces, uh, produces that giant electron
output to, uh, to sort of cluster this thing which puts out this ray.
This, this I don't even want to use this picture cause it's not very
good. The problem I'm having with this is I'm, there's a big element
that's missing and it's where it's missing is connecting this machine
to this machine. There's something in here that I'm not getting and I
can't...
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and so that it's a cascading effect. So that there's a, there's,
instead of a, a sporadic output there's a very coherent cascaded built
up, uh, driven kind of output coming from these tubes and, uh, it
doesn't last long, it lasts for a few seconds. And I was thinking
about the, uh, the wave front and I've pretty much come to the
conclusion that, uh, that these things are absolutely in a very short
wave area. They are either gamma rays or they're X-rays, like an
X-ray laser or something like that. Really potent stuff.
IUm-hum.
Uh, operating in the, uh, in a real short wave front area.
And, and when it strikes the target, the target's are, uh, missile
components,that's what I think the targets are, they're components of
missiles, not so much warheads, but as they are the guidance systems
for missiles.
M: C
I Hum.
V: you know, like the solid state electrons, the chip electrons,
ana, the guidance system for the missiles. Plus, I get another real
interesting thing - side thing - here's, uh, here's a side effort
going on with this that has to do with, uh, it takes a large computer
to operate this, so what we're looking at also is we're looking at a
condensed version of a very fast computer that operates this.
Remember we talked about sequencing and that timing was everything...
M: (L 7 Um-hum.
M:
V:
the miming, corrects the timing and everything is, uh, a real number
cruncher...
C
I ...and, that one of the problems is that the thing that does
...monster of a computer...
M: ,7Um-hum.
V: ( J ...and the problem is that this thing is not going to be
effective unless it's in space. It's, um, to fit the thing in space,
this thing won't be in space floating around up here, because (a.)
that violates agreements, (b.) it's a sitting duck circling the earth
in a fixed orbit or just sitting in a fixed orbit. So what we're
essentially looking at is we're looking at a device that's launchable.
In other words, when, when we determine that the Soviets have launched
say a group of ICBM's, then we would fire this sucker into space it
would seek out the ICBM wall and eliminate it. So we're looking,
we're looking at a, a device that's really smart, that can handle big,
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big time timing sequential problems in a very short period. So we're
looking at a whole new animal in terms of how smart it is. And I was
thinking of that, and it's really interesting - I'm getting the
impression of a bottle, a bright blue bottle that is literally a
computer operated by light. Uh, I don't know how to explain that but
I think that's the extra laser that I'm seeing. Its actually a
computer that's light operated. In other words, it operates on
photons instead of hard circuits, electromagnetic circuits, so it's
literally impervious to the EMP or EPI or whatever they call
it...electromagnetic interference from atomic blasts. And, that's a
very, uh, a really powerful computer but it's crunched down into a
really tiny size...
M: I Um-hum.
V: ... so this, and, and because of its size this thing actually
glows blue white when it operates.
M: C Hum.
V: ',You know, it creates so much heat itself, the computer does,
t7is is real interesting, we're right on, this device is so far out on
the edge of stability that, uh, quite literally, I mean it's
self-destructive. In order for it to work in its final state, it
destroys itself. It generates such intense power...
M: jUm-hum.
V: j ...that it lasts for a microseconds, but the wall it puts up
destroys everything in its way, in its path, uh, we're talking a
really neat concept, and all the dynamics that are going into it are
really complex and really state-of-the-art stuff.
M: Um-hum.
V: Uh, I, I essentially see what I-was seeing this afternoon only
see it operating and it's, it's, uh, this volatile beam coming out
of this thing. I just wish I could - the key to this whole thing
really, the key to the whole thing and the metal alloy or oxide alloy
rods that are bundled - that's the key, and how they're bathed with
the output from this, uh, laser initiated controlled explosion and,
and the elements from that - the, uh, neutrons that are stripped from
this are done in a very, are stripped in and a very special way. It's
like, uh, it's something different from electromagnetics and I can't,
damn, I can't put it together.
M: It's not in our vocabulary.
V: !e No, that's probably the problem is that I have nothing to
scri a it with and I can see it, you know, I can, I can taste, I
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can, I know it's, uh, uh, if I was gonna draw it, uh, I wanta do this
really fancy scribble and, uh, and, and, what's interesting about this
is and again we're going back to the timing sequence and all that kind
of stuff, what we're really talking about is we're talking about an
expected occurrence of the neutrons coming off this thing. In other
words, the way they orbit and everything it's all predictable. It's
all been predicted. So they strip off the maximum number of neutrons
and accelerate them down to these lasing metallic alloy rods or
whatever they are and there's, it's not a donut wrapped around this
thing but it's a special shape. It's like, uh, it's designed to
capture where the neutrons will be which is really interesting. It's,
it's like there's, you would look at it and say "that's really weird
the way they did that." But it's taken months of, you know, using the
computer to map how that will be done without interfering with the
process itself.
M: f - _ Um-hum.
V: ( ) you know, it's like being in the right place at the right
time: And, I don't know how to do that. It's like a
M: ( J Sounds like it's hard to capture in a drawing, it's hard to
capture in language.
V: C Yeah, and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to capture the
right kind of words to describe it. It's not like a double helix,
it's not like a donut, uh, it's like a, uh, it's a specially
configured - it's not electromagnetic either, it's something - it like
traps the higher orbits of a neutron that come off or electrons that
create neutrons or whatever. I don't even know what the hell I'm
talking about here. You know, I think physicists would have troubles
sitting down and conversing on this.
M: Um-huh.
V: It's beyond, it's beyond the come, it's, uh, they could
'(heorize it but, when it comes to actually doing it, it takes
literally sitting down with a super computer for months to come up
with come conclusions, or arrive at some conclusions, so Demo One is a
film of what happens in the desert. Demo Two is actually seeing this
thing done in a lab scenario on a smaller scale using this massive
laser device to initiate a controlled nuclear detonation which
produces huge outputs of neutrons which are stripped using this double
helix donut device which is then pumped or pulsed across a very
special alloy type of rod, and it's real short, I mean it's not a
major thing. It's just a little bunch of rods that are set up in a
certain way and neutrons are pumped across it. And its acts like a
directional anode and it puts out huge.massive like 1012 outputs of
X-rays in a coherent wave front. And these things come boiling out at
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the end and literally heat the air molecules uh, that travel they
travel through. Burn them up - just, they burn up the air molecules,
create a vacuum around the and hit these targets which are parts of
pieces of guidance systems to rockets and molecularly it shakes them
to pieces - vaporizes, vaporizes them. And when I say the, the output
of the output of, the demo device in the lab is like 1 1/10th and not
even that, like 1/50th the power of the one that's, that's done with
the detonation in the desert.
M: J Hum.
V: The one in the desert is just unreal, its literally powered
with thermonuclear device, I mean it's output is outrageous. On a,
on a scale of 1 to 10 the lab demo is a 1 and the one in the desert's
is 10 to the minus 10, I mean it's just got an outrageous output - it
would melt anything. And, and in space the near vacuum of space it
would put a small wall up of X-ray or gamma ray output that you
couldn't fly a gnat through you know without cooking it. It would
shake everything molecularly apart and, and it wouldn't last that
long,;you know, seconds. And what's neat about it is the only side
effect is the thermonuclear device going off in the atmosphere, you
know, above the atmosphere in space, so you would have a probably a
real severe EPI problem or EMP problem or whatever you call it that
would last for a few minutes actually a little more than a few
minutes, but the result is that everything manmade above the
atmosphere would cease to function. It would literally be blown to
pieces. Real overkill for eliminating just a few hundred ICBMs or
whatever. Probably 15 of these would launch one right after the other
for a 20-minute period would eliminate any ICBM's the Russians ever
launch.
M: (^ Hum.
V: ) That's essentially it. That' .s, that's all I'm getting for
this event stuff. Now I'm getting some other real interesting things
on the side I'm getting specially designed computer stuff to operate
these things, to aim, them, to handle whether or not they should go
off, or how they go off, uh, super high speed very powerful
miniaturized computers that run very hot. I see them literally
glowing bottles of coolant. I also see, uh, a second remote site in
the desert somewhere that's definitely an air base where the devices
are put together and tested. I see, uh, uh, hum, got kind of a flash
and input of guys running around with guns which is real interesting,
uh, some kind of heavy security force, this is really over protected
stuff, uh, I see variations of this, theoretic variations of this that
operate not only in the gamma X-ray area but are - you see this is
capable of generating a whole lot of different kinds of wave fronts.
And you can generate microwave, you can generate gamma wave, you can
generate X-ray, the key is the rods. It really has to do with the
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M: C ,Um-hum. Sure.
V: L );...observable in a lab situation, uh, which, again, I think
the breakthrough on that which is it's really interesting has to do
with something as simple as polishing the inside of that sphere.
lasing components and I think the problem what they've really ironed
out is how to, how to time the thermonuclear device to capture its
output in terms of neutrons and focusing. They've learned to do that
and now they learned about the lasing rods and how to develop a
coherent wave fronts. And its combining the two and putting that into
a vehicle that's launchable - it's really interesting. Making it
small enough but violent enough to do what it's gotta do, so we're
looking at some really advanced state-of-the-art stuff. And I think
one of the real surprises that they've got in just the past couple of
years is the ability to theoretically test it by using both the high
energy laser at this lab. They were unable to generate enough output
power with this laser before it really use it to any extent in testing
this. And now they've been able to do that, really, really produce
the kind of output that's necessary and control the scenario to at
least generate some minor tests they're major tests but I mean an a
way that's...
Hum.
V: So that they're not only initiating the, the miniature sun to
burn, but it's actually reflected back in on itself. It actually
collapses back in on it, so it's almost like building a miniature
black hole, in a bottle which is really neat. And, and again that in
comes the theory to this enormous amount of resource in terms of
computer work and theoretics and stuff, and, and that's it. And the
most fun out of the whole thing is that they really do initiate this
thing using this high energy laser. You get to see the air molecules
boil. Maybe via, I wouldn't watch it except via maybe a remote
camera, uh, I get a feeling if this thing ever went haywire, you know,
I mean there'd be X-rays everywhere, so it's probably a very, uh,
heavily built shielded room that they use as a target.
That's it, that's it, that's go for broke stuff.
( OK.
3OK. I hope so.
Thank you,
7 It seems to be awfully fantastic stuff.
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