CHECKED OCA CALENDAR FOR POSSIBLE REPRESENTATIVES FOR CIA

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP91B00389R000500320001-1
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 78
• Document Creation Date: December 27, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 23, 2012
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: November 24, 1987
• Content Type: MISC

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Checked OCA Calendar for possible representatives for CIA.
There was no Representatives at the SFRC Subcmte on Western.
Hemisphere and Peace Corps Affairs RE S. 1614 U.S. Policy with respect to
Panama from CIA.
The Transcript that is enclosed is a cct1:.:.
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Stenographic Transcript of
HEARINGS
Before the
Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere And Peace Corps Affair.s
of the
Committee on Foreign Relations
UNITED STATES SENATE
U.S. POLICY WITH RESPECT TO PANAMA
Washington, D.C.
October 22, 1987
OCA 87-5804
COPY 1
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AILDEPSJ
(202) 628-9300
20 F STREET, N.W.
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IIAIOLNI_QE;
Hon. Edward M. Kennedy, A United States
Senator from the State of Massachusetts
Hon. Alfonse M. D?Amato, A United States
Senator from the State of New York
Dr. Robert Cook-Deegan, National Advisory
Committee of Prysiclans for Human Rights
Hon. William Jorden, Former U.S. Ambassador
to Panama, Mc Lean, Virginia
Colonel Charles Be Stone (Retired), Former
Head of Military Assistance Advisory Group to
MiL
Panama 46
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J.S. POLICY WITH RESPECT TO PANAMA
Thursday, October 22, 1987
United States Senate
Subcommittee on Western
Hemisphere and Peace Corps
Affairs
Committee on Foreign Relations
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met at 2:33 p.m. in Room SD-419, Dirksen
Senate Office Building, Hon. Christopher Dodd (chairman of
the subcommittee) presiding.
Present; Senators Dodd (presiding), Cranston, and Helms.
Senator Dodd; The Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere and
Peace Corps Affairs of the Foreign Relations Committee will
come to order.
For the record, I want to state in preparation for these
hearings, the subcommittee extended an invitation to both the
State Department and the Defense Department to testify on the
legislation before us today. I regret that for their own
internal bureaucratic reasons, they have decided not to avail
themselves of the opportunity.
With that, I have a short statement I would like to make,
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and then I understand Senator D'Amato is on his way over
here. We will hear from Senator Kennedy and Senator D'Amato
and other members before we hear from our additional
witnesses.
Today the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere will
hear testimony concerning recent events In Panama and the
approprlate U.S. policy response to those events.
Four months ago, charges by a former member of the
Panamanian Defense Forces against General Norlega and certain
other Panamanian authorities sparked massive demonstrations
and demands for General Norlega to step aside pending an
independent Investigation into those allegations. Despite
efforts by Panamanian authorities to stifle dissent,
demonstrations and general strikes have continued, as
evidenced by the march and general strike planned for today.
Were any of these charges new? Not really. Many of
these allegations had long been rumored in Panama and
abroad. However, it is clear that the announcement by Diaz
Herrera, the former Chief of Staff of the Panamanian Defense
Forces, came at a moment in time when Panamanian businessmen
and politicians, students and housewives had become fed up
with the pervasive official corruption, fed up with the
military establishment which has forgotten what its primary
mission is, namely, the national defense of the nation, and
not intimidation of its citizenry, and fed up with a regime
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which talks about democracy white undermining freedom.
It seems clear to those of us who have watched events
unfolding over the past several months that the Panamanian
people have said loudly and clearly, enough is enough. They
are not going to buy attempts by General Noriega to wrap
himself in the Panamanian flag to deflect legitimate
criticism against h.im. They do not believe, as he has
asserted, that foreign intervention by the United States is
responsible for the current unrest in Panama, or that this is
all a plot by the United States to take back the Panama
Canal. The Panamanian people know that the United States is
not the problem* They know that we stand fully prepared to
carry out our obligations under the terms of the 1977 Panama
Canal Treaties, and that we expect the Panamanian government
to do likewise.
The United States Senate has expressed its concerns on
two separate occasions with respect to recent developments
in The House has taken similar action. The United States
must demonstrate firmly and publicly that we will not stand
idly by while Panama's transition to democracy is derailed.
General Norlega cannot continue to expect the United States
to provide economic and military assistance to a government
which is not representing the interests or desires of its
people.
Today we have pending in this committee legislation
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introduced by Senators D'Amato, Kennedy and others to
terminate assistance to Panama unless concrete steps are
taken by the Panamanian authorities to restore Panama to the
democratic road. Time Is running out for the Panamanian
authorities. They know what must oe done to reverse the
certainty of congressional action* More Importantly, they
know what must be done to preserve the possibility and
promise of democracy in Panama. I only hope that these
individuals have the courage to do what must be done. If
not, the real losers are the Panamanian people.
Our lead-off witnesses this afternoon are. Senators
Kennedy and D'Amato, both of whom have followed recent events
in Panama clos3ly over the past several months and have
sponsored legislation which is the subject of today's hearing
I welcome Doth of you to the hearing, and I will first
turn to my colleagues here, Senator Helms and Senator
Cranston, for any opening statements they may have, and then,
Senator Kennedy, we will go right to you.
Senator Helms; Mr. Chairman, Senator Kennedy was here
for the morning session, and I am almost obliged to say we
have got to stop meeting like this.
It is always a pleasure to see you.
Senator Kennedy: I think we are going to have more
agreement this afternoon than we had this morning.
Senator Helms; Exactly.
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Mr. Chairman, I am glad that we are finally getting
around to holding a hearing on the legislation offered by
several of us. Senator D'Amato and I are the principal
co-sponsors of one bill, and then we are co-sponsors of the
other, and we are all in the mix, so to speak.
Our bill, the D'Amato-Helms bill, was introduced last
August, and the crisis,in Panama has grown increasingly worse
since. Now, our bill would cut off all military and economic
aid to Panama until the President certifies various
conditions regarding democracy and human rights in Panama.
Since June of this year, Mr. Chairman, the people of
Panama have been In the streets almost daily, as you have
mentioned, demanding democracy and the resignation of General
Norlega, the de facto dictator of that country. Even today,
as we hold this hearing at this moment, the people of Panama
have taken to the streets again In what was to have been the
largest rally ever against the dictatorship of Noriega.
However, as in the past, this rally was declared Illegal by
the Panamanian government, and the people are risking their
lives by attending, let alone participating In it.
The government of Panama has become more repressive than
ever. Even American citizens have now become targets. In
the last month an American CNN journalist was expelled from
Panama for reporting on opposition rallies, and last week a
retired U.S. colonel was expelled from the country because he
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was known to have been critical of Noriega.
And last week, ten American military personnel in Panama
were arrested. They were beaten and held incommunicado
overnight. And prior to that, the economic counselor at the
U.S. Embassy was detained and held incommunicado for eight
hours.
Just two nights ago, the largest department store in
Panama City was burned to the ground. The employees believe
that they were being punished for having announced that they
would participate in the opposition rally today.
Two days ago, in anticipation of the opposition rally
today, the government of Panama arrested approximately 100
people who were known to be participating in the activities
of the opposition in one form or another, to one degree or
another.
Sos Mr. Chairman, the government of Panama has thus far
taken no positive steps which would make them eligible to
receive American aid furnished by the U.S. taxpayers.. For
years, some of us have been warning about the serious
problems in Panama involving human rights and international
drug trafficking and money laundering and so forth and so on.
Around this hemisphere, Mr. Norlega is seen as a threat
to the stability of the entire region. One month ago the
Inter-American Human Rights Commission of the Organization of
American States publicly condemned the government of Panama
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for being responsible for the brutal murder of Dr. Hugo
Spadafora. But that government will not even appoint a
commission to investigate that murder.
So It is oovlous, at least to this Senator, that the
American taxpayers should not under any circumstances be
financing a government which we know Is Involved In the kind
of activities I have just mentioned. I believe it is unwise
to wait any longer to pass the D'Amato-Helms bill or any one
of the other pieces of legislation which are related. These
pieces of legislation have wide, bipartisan support, and I
trust that the Senators will work together to bring this to
the floor as quickly as may be possible.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd; Thank you, Senator Helms.
Senator Cranston?
Senator Cranston; Thank you,. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd, as chairman of the Western Hemisphere
Subcommittee of the Foreign Relations Committee, and our
first two witnesses, Senator Kennedy and Senator D'Amato,
have provided strong and very effective leadership in
pressing for passage of Panama-related legislation. I
believe personally that It Is urgent for the Senate to act
now In support of efforts to speed the departure of the
bandit regime being headed by Colonel Noriega. It is in the
U.S. national security Interest, and It Is our moral and
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humanitarian 03 ligation to use our limited influence to
hasten the restoration of democracy in Panama where today a
truly vile, sinister band has hijacked the instruments of
democratic government.
The continued stalemate in Panama is accelerating
radicalization tendencies. Witness the killing of a
demonstrator last months the shooting of Ambassador Gabriel
Lewis's son, and the repeated threats and intimidation
against professional U.S. diplomats and American soldiers by
Nor i ega's thugs.
I joined with Senators Kennedy, D'Amato and Helms to
introduce two Panama bills last August. One formalizes the
suspension of J.S. aid and establishes clear human rights
democracy conditions for its resumption. The other suspends
imports of sugar under Panama's quota until the some human
rights democracy conditions are met.
The purpose here,. today, is to zero in on the Norlega
crowd, which has a virtual monopoly on exports from the cane
plantations, and that is the purpose of this legislation.
Under the Dodd amendment, which I wholeheartedly supported,
these measures may take effect 45 days after enactment of the
Department of Defense bill unless changes take place in
Panama. But I would like to see these sanctions take force
immediately, and I think we should take steps to that end.
For reasons wholly unrelated to Panama, we do not know
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when or if the Defense bill will be come law. Clearly it
will not for some time., We need to act on Panama now.
Let me say that I am not wedded to any specific proposal,
but I do feel strongly that we should move effective
legislation on this subject now, this month, to sustain
moderates in Panama and to keep up the nonviolent pressure.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd; Thank you, Senator Cranston.
Senator Kennedy, we welcome you to the committee. We
know you are busy, and appreciate your patience in listening
to these opening statements.
We will be glad to include your entire statement in the
record, and to receive your testimony in any way you would
like to present it.
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STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD M. KENNEDY, A UNITED STATES
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS
Senator Kennedy; Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and
the members of the committee.
I want to first of all commend you, Mr. Chairman, for
commencing these hearings, and I think it sends a very clear
message to the Panamanian people our very deep concern about
the human rights issues affecting. the people ,o f Panama and
our strong commitment to.democracy in Panama. At a time when
the Senate of the United States has been debating the war
powers issues, the whole questions of our policy in the
Persian Gulf, at a time when we are facing significant
economic challenges, this committee, under your leadership,
is focusing the attention of the Senate of the United States
on the whole Issues of democracy and human rights in Panama,
and I think it Is an extremely important message for those
that are attempting to deny the Panamanian people their basic
and fundamental rights, General Noriega, that he understands
the power of this particular message and the importance of it,
Just a few brief Items, Mr. Chairman. Only a few moments
ago I left the Defense Authorization Conference where the
Dodd resolution was being considered, and I can Indicate to
you that In the panel on which I was representing the Senate
as a member of the Force Projection Subcommittee of the Armed
Services Committee there was broad and wide support for the
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Dodd resolution among the members of the House committees the
Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Representatives.
So I think our friends again should understand that we
are seeing not only here in the Senate, not only here in the
formulation of legislations but we saw again as the Senate is
marking up that extremely important piece of legislations
that there is broads wide, bipartisan support.
I think another factor that is interesting and
significant today is the fact that the Majority Leader as
well as the Minority Leader have agreed. to the
recommendations of the Senator from Connecticut and Senator
from North Carolina and Senator from California, and my
colleague, the Senator from New York's request for having a
conformed group travel to Panama, and staff members who are
experienced and knowledgeable and have a breadth of awareness
of the situation there and then report back to this committee
and to the Senate generally That is an extremely unique
step that is taken under only the most extraordinary
circumstances. I think it may be something that is just
looked at in terms of procedures but usually these kinds of
staff investigations are only available in the most
significant priorities established by the Senate. So I think
that message ought to be understood.
Mr. Chairman, these hearings occur at a moment of
extraordinary significance for Panama. I understand that
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Panama City today is an occupied city. Five thousand troops
in combat outfits, armed to the teeth, weapons at the ready,
are effectively occupying that city and resisting the
peaceful demonstrations of men and women, and even children,
whose only desire is to be able to express.what we take for
granted here in this country, and that is an ability to
express their dissent at the government of General Noriega.
So It is In that climate. and atmosphere that we hold.
.these hearings,, why these hearings are so extremely
Important, and why the message that should go from these
hearings to General Noriega, that the group that has been
mentioned here today are In for the whole war. We are not in
for just the one battle. And we are going to follow this
step by step, every step along the line until General Noriega
himself Is going to step aside, and democracy is restored. in
Panama.
Mr. Chairman, in the face of unprecedented repression and
intimidation, the people of Panama are in the streets today
calling on their government to cease its dictatorship, and
the arrests and detentions, to allow the people of Panama
once again to be free. The whole world is watching, and we
wait with hope, but also with a certain trepidation, to see
what the answer wi I I be.
Mr. Chairman, I fear the worst. I fear that the events
of today in Panama will write one more sad and tragic chapter
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of bloody repression in a national history already filled
with stories of murder, corruption, drug smuggling, gun
running and fraud. And at the heart of the problem if
General Manuel Noriega, the Chief of Staff of the Panama
Defense Force.
The causes of the crisis in Panama are, of course, much
more profound than the tyranny of one individual. But
because of General Noriega's own history, the allegations of
criminality and corruptions because of his resort to
repression rather than reconciliation, those causes cannot be
addressed so long as General Noriega remains in power. .
This is not just my own personal view- or the view of the
United States Senate. It is, more importantly, the view of
the overwhelming majority of Panamanian citizens, as
reflected in the statements of dozens of civic and
professional and political organizations.
Let me recount briefly the most significant events that
have led to the crisis that afflict Panama today. The event
that triggered this crisis occurred on June 7, Sunday, when
Retired Chief of Staff, Colonel Robert Diaz, granted an
interview to the independent newspaper, La Prensa, and in
that interview Diaz accused his former friend and colleague,
General Noriega, of murder, extortion, corruption, fraud and
various other high crimes and misdemeanors. Among the other
things, he accused Nor iega of rigging the 1984 presidential
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election and ordering the slow torture, murder and beheading
of Hugo Spadafo ra.
Two nights later, on the evening of June 9, the people of
Panama made history when they formed the National Civic
Crusade. This extraordinary organization, originally
composed of 29 civic and professional groups, was established
outside of the traditional political parties for the purpose
of conducting a campaign for decency and justice in Panama.
Another 39 organizations joined the crusade during the next
few days, and since then, the---National Civic Crusade has led
all Panama to an unprecedented effort to restore the rule of
law, to revive democratic institutions, and to return Panama
to popular government.
Since those earliest days, the people of Panama have been
subjected to unrelenting repression and brutal subjugation.
Hundreds have been arrested and detained for.no reason other
than the honk of a horn or a wave of a white handkerchief.
Hundreds more have been assaulted and beaten.. And in
response, the government of Panama imposed a state of
emergency, suspended all fundamental freedoms; freedom of the
press, freedom of expression, freedom of association are now
things of the past in Panama.
General Norlega and his armed shock troops known as
Dobermans, have kept all Panama under the iron fist of total
control and arbitrary terror.
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Recent evidence of the repression. I would like to
include in the record two news articles by Julia Preston,
dated October 17 and October 20. In the first article Ms.
Preston catalogues instances of brutality by the Panamanian
riot police. She reports that at least three Panamanians
have been killed since the crackdown began, and that more
than 1000 have suffered significant injuries from bird shot,
used by the riot police. Six of these Individuals were
blinded e. She also reports the opposition newspaper La Prensa
remains occupied by soldiers who have blocked Its staff from
entering the building since it was raidea on July 26.
In the second article, Ms. Preston reports that the
Panamanian government has apparently targeted U.S. diplomats,
servicemen, other U.S. citizens for harassment. The former
head of the. U.S. Embassy's Military Group, Colonel Charles
Stone, has been deported. The PDF agents recently conducted
a nighttime prowl of the U.S. Chief of Mission John Meista.
For his own security, Mr. Meista has been forced to move to
an apartment house.
In addition, our economic counselor, David Miller, was
detained at the scene of an antigovernment demonstration on
September 13 and held for eight hours.
More recently, when protesters erupted the night of
October 7, the PDF picked up nine out-of-uniform U.S.
servicemen who were held for six hours before U.S.
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authorities were notified.
?The Information referred to follows;].
ESUBCOMMITTEE INSERT]
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Senator Kennedy: In the face of such repression, the
Congress cannot remain passive. We cannot be in favor of
human rights in the Soviet Union and in Cuoa and be silent
about human rights abuses in Panama.
On August 5, under the leaderships of Senator D'Amato and
Senator Cranston, we introduced S. 1614 which called for a
halt of U.S. economic and military assistance to Panama
unless the President could certify that the government of
Panama had demonstrated concrete progress in the efforts to
assure civilian control of the armed forces, and unless the
government of Panama had established an inaependent
investigation into the allegation of criminal wrongdoing by
members of the PDF, and unless other constitutional
guarantees were restored.
Then on Seatember 24 the Senate, by a vote of 97 to
nothing, unanimously adopted the Dodd resolution which
pledged that all U.S. assistance would be terminated unless
those conditions were satisfied within 45 days.
I would asx permission to include these two pieces of
legislation at this point in the record.
Senator Dodd: Without objection.
[The information referred to follows;]
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Senator Kennedy: I appear before you today to testify In
support of S. 1614. The Senate should keep its solemn pledge
to the people of Panama. Before this Congress adjourns this
years we should send an unmistakable signal to
all the people
of Panama that the American people will have nothing to do
with a military dictatorship that clings to power by
systematically abusing the human rights of Its people.
As a government and as a people we should say nothing, we
should do nothing that could in any way be construed as
providing aid. or comfort to the Noriega regimes. In passing
this legislations we should also make it clear that we do not
mean to interfere in the internal affairs of the nation of
Panama. We are only responding to the pleas of the
Panamanian people. We do not seek to abrogate the Panama
Canal Treaty. That treaty Is the law of the land today, and
the United States of America will abide by Its commitments.
We do not seek to destroy the Panamanian Defense Forces. we
understand that there is an appropriate role for a
professional military in democracy.
The Issue is not the PDF. The issue is the rule of law
as opposed to the rule of one man.
I congratulate the Chairman for his Ieadershio on the
Issue. I am proud to appear here before this subcommittee
with Senator D?Amatos who has played an important role in the
struggles and I urge my fellow Senators to join with us in
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keeping our pledge to the people of Panama.
We are with you today. We will be with you until you
victorious In the struggle finally to bring freedom and
justice to your land and to your people.
[The prepared statement of Senator Kennedy follows:l
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Senator Dodd: Thank you very much, Senator Kennedy.
Senator D'4mato, we are delighted to receive your
testimony.
Your stateuent will be included in the record. Please
proceed as you see fit.
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STATEMENT OF HON. ALFONSE M. D'AMATO, A UNITED STATES
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK
Senator D'Amato: Mr. Chairman, first let me commend you
for taking the time to hold these important hearings, and
indeed they are important because people's lives are at
stake, and the destiny, I believe, of the Panamanian people
is closely linied to what we do, what actions we take, and
whether or not we are perceived as really standing for
democracy and saying that we place a value on human rights,
that we are going to stand for the principles of democracy
wherever, and that is the test.
Let me say, Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask, as you have
indicated, that my testimony be accepted into the record as
if read in Its entirety. Let me touch-on the fact that this
is an effort that has brought together Democrats,
Republicans, liberals and conservatives, and that while we
talk, and there has been much consideration as it relates to
another area In Central America, that area which divides
people In terms of how or where and what we should or should
not be doing,-Vicaragua, that it would seem to me that we
would make a grave error in not recognizing that our policy
here In Panama Is at least as important as the issues
confronting this nation in Central America vis-a-vis
Nicaragua, and that it is vital that the world know about the
courage of the Panamanian people and the reprehensible
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actions of their leader.
Let me underscore the fact that while some of us may have
had certain feelings as it relates to the Panama Canal, that
that is not an issue. Mr. Noriega would attempt to make It
the Issue, but the Issue here is the rights of the peoplee
we have to be vigilant in our government that we not do
anything which directly or Indirectly would appear to
sanction Noriega?s hold or his power.
In fact, it. is incumbent upon us to do everything to
demonstrate to the Panamanian people our unwavering support
for the. principles. of democracy. And that is what is at
stake, our credibility, If any Panamanian people are watching
us, and indeed, they are acting at this present time, as
Senator Kennedy has testified.
The conditions are growing worse, and as we press forward
to see to it that S. 1614 becomes implemented -- and I
believe it will have to be Implemented because I do not think
it would be reasonable for us to feel that those conditions
that must be met within the 45 day period pursuant to your
resolution, Mr. Chairman, will be undertaken, that the people
will not be given democracy, that the armies will be used
against the people, that Indeed, hostilities have now even
been carried against citizens of the United States with
regularity, and It is rather troubling to see that instead of
moving to an a,commodation with respect to the legitimate
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rights of the peoples Noriega has taken an attitude of
toughing it out, so to speak.
So It becomes important. that we do not have our military
even appear that they are countenancing as a result of
cooperative efforts In terms of drills -- there Is a very
important drift that will be coming up In January. If that
drill is undertaken, I an very much concerned that we will be
creating the appearance that we are with Noriega. That would
be a great blow to our credibility as it relates to the
people.
I think as it relates to the cutoff of sugars Senator
Cranston's legislations It Is absolutely paramount that we
push forward with that. That was a brilliant stroke, and
again, an effort joined In by Senator Helms, Senator Kennedy,
and I believe yourself, Mr. Chairman, because we find that
those dollars enrich the very people who are part and parcel
of this effort of subverting democracy and subverting the
true wishes of the Panamanian peoples none less than the
President himself receives a substantial, the President of
Panama receives a substantial portion of those incomes, and
the government of Panama receives a substantial part of those
incomes.
So I commend you, Mr. Chairman, for your holding this
hearing.
I would lice to say that it has been a pleasure, In the
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seven years I have been in the Senate, to see the way we have
come togethers as I mentioned, from all sides of the
political spectrums Senator Helms working with Senator
Cranston and Senator Kennedy, you and I, Mr. Chairman,
together in this effort, and it is important that we continue
Ana I thank the Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Senator D'Amato follows:]
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Senator Dodd: Well, we thank you, and let me commend
both for very fine statements.
I could not agree with you more, Senator D'Amato, that
the sense of coming together around this particular issue is
a message that certainly cannot be lost either, one, on
General Norlega and the people, the few who are supporting
him, but just as importantly, In fact, more importantly I
think, as Senator Kennedy pointed out, on the average citizen
in Panama today who wants to know whether or not this country
stands with them and. behind them in an effort to bring
democracy to that country. I think that joining together, as
you say, is extremely important and sends a very clear and
strong message.
So we are appreciative to have both of you here.
Senator Helms, did you have a question?
Senator Helms: Mr. Chairman, I want to join you in
expressing your appreciation for two excellent statements by
two capable Senators,
May I ask unanimous consent, sort of a personal
privilege, Senator Kennedy alluded to the civic, professional
and business groups who got together to form the opposition,
and I have just noted the arrival of the Directors of the
National Civic Crusade, which is exactly what he was talking
about.
Would it be appropriate -- they cannot testify because
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they are not U.S. citizens, but would, it be all right if they.
stood to be recognized?
Senator Dodd: Certainly. I see no objection to that.
Senator Helms; I see one, two, three, four, five.
Senator Dodd: The record should note that we welcome
these people.
Senator Kennedy: Mr. Berea, I think, is the chairman of
this group.
Senator Dodd; Yes. We welcome you. here today, and we
appreciate your being here.
Thank you, Senator Helms.
Senator Helms: Thank you very much, gentlemen, and I
thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd; Senator Cranston, do you have any
questions?
Senator Cranston; No, I have no questions, but I do want
to thank both Senators for very fine statements and very
effective and hard work on this.
Senator Dodd; I would tell you that I know Senator Pell
is strongly su3portlve of this effort as well, and we will
try at the earliest possible. date to move forward.
You will note that one of the bills here, involving the
sugar quotas, --ould not be referred to this committee. The
Parliamentarian referred that to the Finance Committee. So
we only have one bill before us today, the one that does not
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specifically include the quota. But that does not preclude
this committee from amending that legislation to include the
sugar issue.
I am going to explore that question of sugar because I
think it is an extremely important one with the witnesses we
have coming after our two colleagues. here are completed,
because I think, as Senator D'Amato pointed out, the effect
on the government, I think the government is one of the major
beneficiaries of the quota rather than private individuals in
that country. So the impact of that particular decision
could be maybe the most direct.
Senator Cranston; If you can incorporate the sugar
matter in this bill, it would be appreciated.
Senator Dodd; We will try to do that.
Senator Kennedy.: May I just mention one point?
As Senator D'Amato mentioned, the military operation, and
it is called KENDALL LIBERTY, and it is supposed to take
place in January. There has been a historical set of
maneuvers related to the security of the Canal which one year
is done jointly and then another year is done independently.
It can be done independently by the United States without the
joint cooperation and support.
I have already raised that issue with General Werner of
the Southern Command, as the Armed Services Committee in
charge of the Force Projection Subcommittee, and that is in
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the jurisdiction of that committee. So I will raise this
again with General Werner, who Is here in Washington this,
week.
I would welcome any of your comments on it. It seems to
me that we ought to be guided by what the Democratic Forces
in Panama would believe. There Is one opinion that
association between Americans and the PDF in this situation
strengthens General Noriega. There Is another feeling that
if they demonstrate they work with the PDF, that the efforts
that we are trying to undertake In the restoration of
democracy would demonstrate to the PDF that they are not a
part of our effort, and it Is just General Noriega.
So to whatever extent members of this panel have on this
issue, and to the extent that the Democratic Forces have in
Panama I think should be counseled, and I would hope that we
could work in concert together In making a recommendation to
the Defense Department on that question. I would welcome a
chance to counsel with all of the members as well as the
Crusade members, on what Is an appropriate step to take.
Senator Dodd; I think that Is an excellent suggestion,
and we will certainly do that.
I think it would be worthwhile at this juncture to
mention as well, we are fortunate indeed to have as our
Ambassador In Panama, Ambassador Davis, who I think has done
a remarkable job, tireless. I spent two or three days with
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him a month or more, or two months ago I guess now, and he
has worked tirelessly on behalf of the people of not only our
own country but the people of Panama. And much of what we
know, we know because of his hard work and good efforts. We
will be in touch with him as well.
I think he has been a tremendous source of advice and
counsel on what is the best way to proceed in all of this.
Senator Helms. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd; Yes.
Senator Helms; Mr. Chairman, before the two Senators
leave, this is sort of a leading question but I think it
ought to be placed on the record.
All of us have met many,
many times with various leaders
of the Panamanian opposition to Noriega. I would just ask
the two Senators, Mr. D'Amato and Mr. Kennedy, and Mr.
Cranston who is down there now, have you found all of these
leaders with wnom you have met to be democratic and
pro-American?
Senator D'Amato: I think, Mr. Chairman, the Senator puts
his finger on a central theme. With all of us in the
administration who are very much concerned about the
departure of Noriega, with those elements who are today in
the streets, that Senator Kennedy referred to, who have come
together, were somehow less than or would create a situation
where people -- and a vacuum would be created that would be
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less than supportive of the legitimate Interests that the
United States has as it relates to its own security, the
Panama Canal is particular.
That is the farthest thing from the truth. Be It some of
the operatives in the CIA who are attempting to create that
situation or some very legitimate concerns, as Senator
Kennedy has pointed out, coming from the military; we are
talking about, people who have a great affection for the
United States, and they want democracy. And indeed, if there
is a threat to the United States and Its relationship with
the people of Panama, it would be to create the appearance
that in any way, shape or place we are supporting Noriega.
So I would says Senators the people who have come to the
fore, the leaderships the totality of that leadership has.
strong, strong support for democracy and are good friends,
and look upon the United States as close allies.
Senator Helms; That has certainly been my experience,
and I am sure.
One final question also just for the record.
Is there any doubt in the minds of any of us that Noriega
and other high ranking Defense Force members are Involved
personally In international drug trafficking and money
laundering?
Senator D'Amato; Wells I will say that as Chairman of
the International Drug Caucus, or co-Chairman with Senator
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Biden, let me say that the facts are clear and overwhelming,
and the testimony that has been produced from very reliable
sources, various sources Is clear and convincing that General
Noriega has not only been involved in drug running, but a
whole episode In terms of money laundering associated with
the drug trafficking, associated with providing protection,
sale of visas, et cetera, all those things that go hang In
hand with the international drug cartel.
He has become, I. will not say one of the major, but
certain-1-y- a significant force as It relates to the
international drug trafficking: of the drugs themselves, and
more particularly, the money.
Senator Helms: I thank the Senator.
Senator Kennedy& It Is my understanding that there has
been evidence that has been submitted to the Grand Jury, that
an Indictment itself has not been returned as yet, but I
would be glad to provide thos-e particular facts to you.
[The inforoation referred to follows;]
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Senator Helms; We have had executive sessions of the
Foreign Relations Committee. We cannot discuss what we have
heard, but the evidence is very clear.
I thank the Senator.
Senator Kennedy; Thank you very much.
Senator Dodd; Thank you both very, very much for being
here.
Our first public witness is the Honorable William Jorden,
former Ambassador to Panama.
Ambassador Jorden, why do you not join us?
In fact, why do we not bring up all three witnesses
together. That way we might expedite things.
We will also hear from Or. Robert. Cook-Deegan, National
Advisory Committee of Physicians for Human Rights, and
Colonel Charles Be Stone (Ret.), former Head of Military
Assistance Advisory Group to Panama.
We would appreciate all three of you joining us at the
witness table.
Or. Cook-Deegan, I understand you have a plane to catch.
Dr. Cook-Deegan: I have another lecture to give in about
an hour*
Senator Dodd: Well, If so, then why do we not let you go
first, and then we will hear your comments. If you have to
skip out on us, we will understand that. But nonetheless, if
you would proceed, then we will go to you, Ambassador Jorden,
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and then to you, Colonel. If it is all right with you, we
will let you be clean-up.
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STATEMENT OF DR. ROBERT COOK-DEEGAN, NATIONAL ADVISORY
COMMITTEE OF PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
Dr. Cook-Deegan; Thank YOU, I will stay as long as I
can. I hope to stay long enough to answer a few questions.
My name Is Robert Cook-Deegan, and I am here in the
capacity as a member of the Advisory Committee of Physicians
for Human Rights. This is an organization that was founded
in October of 1986 and represents about 200 physicians and
health professionals across the United States. The primary
mission of Physicians for Human Rights is to Investigate the
medical aspects of human rights abuses around the globe.
We undertook a mission to Panama from the 23rd to the
27th of August of this year at the invitation of the
Panamanian Medical Associations the doctors and dentists and
other health professionals of Social Security and of the
Panamanian Committee for Human Rights. They had called us in
response to the events of late June and early July and had
asked us to come down and investigate the degrees and
actually to document the human rights abuses that were taking
place In Panama.
We went down for a five day visits and during that visit
we interviewed approximately 70 victims of human rights, we
met with the Archbishops we met twice with officials at the
U.S. Embassy, let with the Panamanian Minister of Health and
several other officials.
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Our principal findings were, number one, that the human
rights situation in Panama had been sporadically bad for a
long period of time but got suddenly much worse in June, and
that trend has continued to the current day. It has been
getting worse and worse.
We documented six serious eye injuries that had led to
partial or complete blindness. Doctors that we spoke with
estimated there were another 20 injuries that we could not
see directly. And they also estimated that approximately 100
people had been injured by bird shot in the month and a half
period before we visited Panama. I do not know what those
figures would be now.
There were three distinctive aspects of the human rights
abuses In Panama City. The first was the widespread and
indiscriminate use of bird shot. The second was widespread
use of tear gas. But there was a funny way that tear gas was
being used In Panama that we are not familiar with. Tear gas
canisters can be used in many, many forms. They are all
marked on the outside very clearly saying that they are toxic
gases and should not be used Indoors, and that people should
be treated immediately after exposure. We documented many,
many, many cases of shooting these Into classrooms, into
people's homes, into cars and into other enclosed spaces. In
several Instances this tear gas was shot In to Induce people
to leave the buildings, and then people were shot with
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shotguns when they left those buildings*
This obviously Is a major source of injuries, both
because of the tear gas itself, which is quite toxic to
people who have asthma or other medical conditions that
affect their lungs, and it Is also exposing them to the bird
shot wounds as soon as they leave the buildings.
A second very significant set of human rights abuses was
connected to the violations of medical neutrality. Following
the street violence in June and July, particularly on July
10, we were able to document that there was a process of
medical screening that was being done not by medically
trained personnel, but Instead, by Panamanian Defense Force
personnel. That is, if somebody was injured during those
days, they would show up at the emergency room of several
hospitals in Panama City and would be either turned away from
treatment or were screened by the Panamanian Defense Forces
and were followed in to the hospital, in some cases later
taken away before their treatment was complete.
These are very serious breaches of International
covenants to which Panama is party.
A third major aspect that we documented but not as
thoroughly as ae would have wished, there were many
allegations of torture In the Panamanian prisons when people
were taken In. We actually had direct documentation of two
such cases. In one case a man was hung by his wrists for
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approximately nine hours, leading to serious Injury of his
hands and arms. And in another case a man was, while in
prison, was burned on his testicles and other places on his
body.
I will just talk about two specific cases very briefly to
give you a flavor for the kinds of things that we found. One
case that we ran into was in one of the two rural provinces
that we visited. We talked with a Senator 8ortillo Mejia,
who is a National Senator from that province, the province of
Chiriqui. He was at one point taken out of his car where he
was driving with his family, was beaten In front of his
family, and was taken into prison and held incommunicado for
several hours. This is a member of the national legislature.
A second case that received a great. deal of press in
Panama at the time were two girls who were playing on the
streets on June 11, and In their own words, this is in the
words of the nine year old girl: we were playing school.
Someone said the police are coming. We ran away. I fell
down. The police shot me.
And Heidi, an eleven year old girl, ran to the aid of
this nine year old girl, and trying to pick her up, was
herself shot. These two girls were taken to the emergency
room, went Into major surgery to evacuate blood from their
lung cavities and from their abdominal cavities. The eleven
year old girl had injuries to her stomach, to her small
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intestines, and to her left kidney and had to have her spleen
removed.
These are two of the cases. We actually have
documentation of approximately 70 cases. I will not disclose
any of the names because we are trying to handle this in a
responsible manners but more details will be made available
to the committee if there are further questions.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Cook-Deegan follows;]
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Senator Helms (presiding); Doctor, thank you very much.
We will hear the Ambassador and Colonel In a few moments,
but before you proceed, Mr. Ambassador, Colonel, you had
planned to. retire In Panama, had you not?
Colonel Stone; Yes, sir. I retired on 31 July in Panama.
Senator Helms: But were you not expelled from Panama
during the past week?
Colonel Stone: Yes, sir.
Senator Helms: When it comes to your time to testify
after the Ambassador, I hope you will go Into some detail
about the events that led up to your expulsion.
Well, Mr. Ambassadors we are glad to see you again.
You may proceed.
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STATEMENT OF THE HON. WILLIAM JORDEN, FORMER U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO PANAMA, MC LEAN, VIRGINIA
Ambassador Jordeni Mr. Chairman, nine years and a few
days ago I was meeting with the Senator Foreign Relations
Committee which was then considering the recently concluded
Panama Canal Treaties. For most of uss it was an exciting
times filled with high expectations* we knew that we were on
the threshold of a new era In relations between our country
and the small nation of Panama.
The problell that had troubled those relations for more
than 70 years was about to be solved. And Indeed, I am bound
to says our expectations were fully justified. The treaties
have worked well and to the advantage of both countries.
Above and oeyond the treaties themselves, there was an
additional reason for hope in Panama and among her friends.
By then, In 1978, Panama had functioned. under a de facto
military rule for almost ten years. But during the treaty
negotiations, Panama's military leaders General Omar
Torrijoss announced his intention to return his country to a
more democratic system, There would be, he said, a proper
civilian governments and he would see to it that the military
forces under his command would withdraw from governmental
functions and return to their proper rote defending the
country against any external threat and providing an honest
and effective police force.
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Those pledges, by the way, Mr. Chairman, were given In
person and directly to Majority Leader Byrd and Minority
Leader Baker and to others.
That process of restoring democracy was fairly well
advanced by the time General Torrijos was killed in a plane
crash six years ago. One of his successors who had decided
to enter the political arena quite correctly resigned his
military command to seek office as a civilian. Then, In
1983, General Manual Antonio Noriega became the military
ruler.
What has happened since Is nothing short of. a disaster.
The Torrijos line was reversed 180 degrees. Instead of the
military role diminishing, it increased. One after another
of Noriega's cohorts was placed in key positions, in charge
of customs, the railroad, the nation's ports, the airports,
the Immigration. Norlega followers were placed in
controlling posts in the government ministries and In the
courts. Many In private enterprise faced the unhappy choice
of contributing to the Norlega political machine or being
harassed and Intimidated.
Finally, in June of this year, one of Noriega's closest
military colleagues blew the whistle. General Roberto Diaz
Herrera had been Chief of Staff of the military forces. We
have heard the charges made by Colonel Diaz from you, Mr.
Chairman, and from Senator Kennedy, so I will not repeat
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them. But the Diaz revelations of broad corruption, drug
dealing and so on, set off a revolution in Panama.
Most Panamanians had, of course, heard these allegations
over the years and were inclined to believe most of them, but
they never had been aired publicly, especially from a source
who had been so close to Noriega for so many years. When the
Diaz charges were published, thousands of Panamanians poured
into the streets in protest. The opposition covered the
broadest spectrum of groups and individuals, businessmen,
students, teachers, housewives, professional people, workers.
A loosely xnit organization of more than 100 civic and
professional groups took shape in the Civic Crusade in
Panama, and it is indeed a pleasure to see members and
leaders of that crusade in this room today. They are
courageous, honorable, decent people who are fighting hard
for their country.
A series of peaceful public demonstrations took place and
continues to this day. The people of Panama were voting in
the only way that was available to them, with their feet and
their hands, with banners and handkerchiefs and honking
horns. Their message was loud and clear; Norlega must go.
Panama wants democracy, justice and freedom.
Many of those demonstrations were brutally suppressed, as
we have heard. People have been shot and beaten. Hundreds
have been jailed. Leaders of the opposition have been
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hounded, forced underground, imprisoned or, as our friends in
the back testify, forced into exile.
Members of this committee should be in no doubt that what.
is taking place In Panama is a truly popular movement, one
that reflects a widespread consensus among all shades of
opinion. Not long ago, the Gallup International organization
carried out a public opinion poll in Panama. It was a very
comprehensive poll. It found that 75 percent of the people
wanted Noriega to step down. Their goals were clear,
restoration of real democracy, honest elections, evenhanded
justice, and removal of the military from normal civilian
activities inside the government and out.
In that poll, approximately 13 percent of the respondents
were not eager to have Noriega leave. I reckon that is about
the number who are dependent on him, who have government
Jobs, are in the military and in the whole network that he
has establ ishe1 of support and cooperation. Twelve percent
either had no opinion or were unwilling to say what it was.
The goals that have been stated by the people in this
poll, by the Civic Crusade, by every decent politician in
Panama, are demands that I think should hearten us
Americans. We should also admire the courage with which
these demands of the Panamanian people are being expressed
every day*
what should the United States do In the face of this
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crisis? First, I think It Is clear to all of us and to our
many friends In Panama that this Is, at heart, their
problem. It must in the end be solved by them in their way.
It is not for us to supply blue prints or rigid
prescriptions, but we must not stand aloof and look the other
way. We have a deep and longstanding interest in the safety
of the Panama Canal. We have a significant military presence:
In Panama, one that is important to our security posture in
the entire region. We Americans also have a historical
commitment to the proposition that democracy and freedom
should prevail, and that dictatorship and repression should
be eliminated wherever our influence can oe effective.
Finally, we have an abiding concern for the well-being,
the prosperity, and yes, the happiness of the Panamanian
people, our longstanding and probably closest friends in
Latin America.
The Senate resolution calling for restoration of civilian
rule and urging General Noriega to step aside was received
with enthusiasm by the Panamanian people. Even more
impressive and effective was the cutoff of military and
economic assistance to the Noriega regime. That signal went
from one end of Panama to the other, and Its meaning was
unmistakable.
I have no hesitation In endorsing the spirit and the
letter of Senate Bill 1614 and of Senator Granston?s
C')
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proposal, whicn I think is 1615. This mandates a cutoff
until certain conditions are met. Its passage will have, I
believe, a healthy impact on the Panamanian people and on
Norlega and his cohorts.
Let me quickly say that I am not usually a proponent of
efforts to fine tune policy by committee or congressional
action. I know --
Senator Dodd (presiding): Spoken like a good guy from
the State Department.
Ambassador Jorden: Most members of this committee are
aware of the many pitfalls that lie down that road.
In this case, I think the situation fuily'justifies the
action, but I would suggest that one of the problems that
attends this kind of action is the occasional difficulty we
have in altering or reversing it when circumstances have
changed.
One of these days General Nor lega is going to step
aside. When that happens, his dictatorial regime will be
replaced, let us hope by one that is more open and honest and
democratic. I think the committee will agree that we would
want to help such a new government put Panama back on its
feet again. We might want to quickly restore the assistance
that is being severed, or even augment that cooperation.
Panama has suffered economic devastation during these
recent months, and a democratic government is going to have
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its hands full in eliminating the chaos that Noriega and his
cohorts have created.
So I merely say, by all means, let's help cut off aid
that helps make Noriega strong, but let us be equally quick
to act in support of a successor regime that will have to
sweep up all the broken crockery.
I would IlKe to make one final point, Mr. Chairman. As
the crisis In Panama has deepened, a beleaguered General
Norlega has looked desperately for scapegoats to blame for
his plight. In the process, he has found it convenient to
claim that the United States has caused his problems. It is
all a plot hatched in Washington to destabilize his
government and to hold on to the Panama Canal forever. I
frankly do not think that that Norlega play causes a warm
reaction In Panama City. St-ill, 75 years of mistrust and
suspicion do not disappear in the twinkling of an eye. It
there were not at least a few customers, Norlega would not be
trying to sell that line.
The Panama Canal Treaties were negotiated in good faith.
They were approved by the required two-thirds of the Senate.
They were ratified by our government. And they are, as
Senator Kennedy said, the law of the land. In acting against
Norlega In cutting off aid, we should make It unmistakably
clear that we have no Intention of abrogating
or diminishing
the treaties In any way. There should be no room for doubt
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To do otherwise I think would be to court a disaster far
greater than the one that now besets the good people of
Panama and their friends.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, very much for
your statement.
Colonel Stone, we welcome you, and I should point out to
my colleague that Colonel Stone retired in July this year,
and was just deported from Panama, having married a
Panamanian woman and sought and received permission to spend
his retirement years in Panama, but was just asked to leave
the country by General Noriega.
I am sure you will want to comment on those situations.
But we are sorry to hear that. But we welcome you here today
and look forward to your testimony.
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STATEMENT OF COLONEL CHARLES Be STONE (RETIRED), FORMER
HEAD OF MILITARY ASSISTANCE ADVISORY GROUP TO PANAMA
Colonel Stone; Thank you, sir.
I might say I appear today with a little bit of
trepidation because my family is In Panama, my wife, three
daughters and a granddaughter, to be exact. I might say that
last night they did not sleep in our houses they slept in a
neighbor's house because there was some fear on their part
for what was happening In Panama yesterday and today. So I
am somewhat concerned.
On the morning of the 15th of October I arrived in Mlam.i.
a somewhat shocked Individual, to put it bluntly. I arrived
with no baggage. I had been detained for six hours prior to
being put on an airplane at 3;15 in the morning, 3;45 in the
morning. The Customs inspector, as I went through, asked me
where my baggage was. I told him I had none. He said, where
did you come from? I explained. Then his next question was
how much money are you carrying? I was not carrying very
much, I might add.
I left Panama without any communication with my family,
without a chance to pack any bags. I was put on an
airplane. And I think I will just tell you how that all came
about.
I have lived in Panama off and on for 14 years. The most
recent tour In Panama started in 1979 when I initially was
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assigned as the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Army Security
Assistance Agency for Latin America. In 1983 I went to the
U.S. Embassy and became the Military Group Commander, working
directly with the Panama Defense Force. For five years I
have worked very closely with the Panama Defense Force to
implement U.S. Army, U.S. Government security assistance
programs In that country.
I have had very close relationships with the Panama
Defense Force. I have worked hard to create an atmosphere of
cooperation between our countries and to facilitate the
activities of JSSOUTHCOM In Panama through this cooperation.
I have been involved in the force development of the Panama
Defense Force and in the training of personnel and officers
in order to assist in their professionalization and to assist
them in a transition towards democracy where their military
would be able to perform a military function and withdraw
from some of the activities that have been previously
mentioned.
This long period of cooperation has come to somewhat of a
screeching halt, as you can imagine. It happened in June
when the Panama Defense Force, particularly General Noriega,
was accused of General Diaz Herrera of various crimes that
have already been stated, and Panamanians went into the
streets. During that early period in June I spent time
observing the activities of the Panama Defense Force, and
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particularly observing their use of U.S. military equipment
that I had been responsible for providing them.
This caused a great problem for me in what I hao
rationalized during five years of why I was performing my
mission.
As that month went on, I had talks with embassy officials
concerning my concerns but had no chance to state my concerns
to the Panama Defense Force.
On the 10th of July there was to be a very large
gathering of peopte--at a Catholic Church called El Carmen in
Panama City as part of the Civil Crusade. This activity was
repressed by the opinion Panama Defense Force. They were
never able to assemble. The people returned to their barrios
and reacted by building barricades.
I spent the day on the road again observing the
activities of the. Panama Defense Force and was shocked with
the excess use of force, the indiscriminate use of fire, use
of tear gas and shotguns, the destruction of people's
property, and decided at that time that I had to state my
concerns not only to the Ambassador, which I did, but also to
the Panama Defense Force.
Unfortunately, the next day two of my daughters, who were
driving in my car down the road, one of them with a white
handkerchief outside the.window, were stopped and arrested
and detained. During the four hour process during their
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detention, as I was trying to effect their release, I had the
opportunity to talk to a senior member of the Panama Defense
Force, and I critiqued him rather severely as to the
activities that I had observed by the Force. I told him that
what I had observed had destroyed the rationale that I had
used during a long period of time to provide the kind of
support that I was providing. I told him their actions
convinced me ttiat their statements on making a transition to
democracy were simply talk, and there was no basis In their
actions to support that.
I was told by this officer that no, they were in a
transition to democracy, but there were bad people, people
who-were trying to destabilize Panama, and I might say,
name was mentioned in that discussion.
Senator Helms; I am sure.
Colonel Stone: And some of the people in the back of the
room here, their names were mentioned also.
I asked him then what democracy was in Panama, to define
it for me, and he was not able to do that. So I said to him,
well, if there are elections in 1989 and the Christian
Democrat leader, Arios Calderon, if he were the party's
nominee for that election and he won, would he become
president? And I was told Arlos Calderon will never be
President of Panama.
Then I said your definition of democracy Is a Democracy
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where there are elections and your candidate always wins. I
got no response to that.
But as of that day, my contact with the senior members of
the Panama Defense Force ended.
When I returned to my car that day there was about $2,000
worth of damage done to it. The headlights were broken, it
had been hit with a blunt object on the hood and side of the
car. There was damage to the rear lights and things of that
nature.
My next experience which may have caused me even--more
problem than this one, happened on the 30th of August, after
I retired. I, my wife and one daughter were having lunch at
the Panama Golf Club, and on the way home we observed a large
march of Crusada people marching along the road that goes to
the airport towards San Miguelito, and they were to assemble
at the Roosevelt Monument as you enter San Miguelito.
We decided to drive by another route. around this march to
go to the Roosevelt Monument where my wife wanted to walk
forward and meet the people who were coming towards the
monument. I parked my car about 30 meters from the monument
and was waiting there locking the car when two cars pulled up
behind my car. I saw some really tough characters get out of
those cars that did not seem that they were here to observe a
nonviolent manifestation. So I walked towards.the cars,
since my wife and daughter were there..
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All of a sudden I heard a voice say Colonel Stones you
are not Involved in this. I looked down, and I saw the
legislator from San Miguelito, Lucho Gomez. I told him that
I am not Involved In this, I am just here observing. He
said, well, you cannot be here. You cannot be part of this.
And I said I as not part of this, I am here observing. And
he looked me in the eye and he said, wells I am not Involved
in this, and he drove off.
The people that he had brought then crossed the roads
they started a fights I ran towards my family to try, to get
them out of there, I looked back, saw pistols drawn and the
shooting started.
I got my family out of there. By the time I was able to
return to my car, about an hour later, the same car, I might
adds all the windows were broken in the car, other damage was
done to It with rocks that had hit it. That time it was only
$3,800. The car still rang I might say.
I am very popular, Senator, with my insurance company in
Panama.
But initially, right after that started a series of.
attacks upon me in the legislative body and also in the
government press saying that I was involved in the political
movements in Panama, that I had brought the villains to this
manifestation that had started the violence, I was
responsible for the injuries and the one death that took
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place at this event, I was, if you say threatened with
criminal action against you. I kept my mouth shut, went
about my business, and it slowly died away.
Unfortunately, when things are going bad, sometimes they
get worse. On the 13th of September, two weeks after this
particular event, my wife and I driving in my daughter's car,
were caught in a shootout in San Miguelito. It was a
peaceful manifestation coming down the highway which was in
.honor of the anniversary of the death of Hugo Spadafora. The
manifestation, the marchers were attacked by a group of
people, gunfire started. My wife was In that march. I
happened to be back sort of trying to keep an eye on her.
By the time I got her and we were trying to get out of
there, the armed people were In front of us and behind us,
and we were forced out of our cars at gunpoint. Our car was
stolen and later burned. That-was my daughter's car. She
has not forgiven me on that one yet.
That, I might say, was an event that nobody recognized
me, nor was I ever accused of being there by the government,
but it did have an Impact on my family.
On the 9th of October I took my wife to a manifestation,
a small one, let her off. I parked my car across the road in
a parking lot. Within a short period of time I was arrested
by a number of officers. They charged me with not having a
license plate on my car. When all the windows in my car were
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broken, they also stole the license plate.
I told then that I had talked to a lawyer in Panama. He
had informed me that I need not get a Iicense for my car
because I had a plastic license they put on your windshield
which showed that my car was registered and was licensed.
They said that Is not the case. They gave me a ticket. They
hooked my car to a tow truck and Impounded it, where it sits
today, Impounded by the Panama Defense Force.
That Is the one that had the total of $6,000 worth of
damage. So it is not in bad shape right now; it is just
unusable.
On the 13th of October I was called by Immigration. I
was told that I was in Panama on what is called a turista
pensionado, that there had been allegations made against me
by the G-2 of the Panama Defense Force, that I had been
involved to political manifestations contrary to public
order, and as of that moment, at that time, on that day, my
visa was withdrawn. I therefore was In Panama with no
authority, and I must leave immediately that afternoon or the
next morning. That was about 3;30 In the afternoon.
I informed the Inspector from Immigration that that was
impossible, that I had a family here and that I had certain
things to do, but that I would leave as soon as I could
appropriately do that.
On the next morning, the 14th, I was called back to
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Immigration and I was shown the resolution of Immigration,
which essentially said the same thing, asked to sign It,
which I did not, and said we remind you that you must leave
immediately.
I started to make steps to leave. That evening I was
called back to Immigration and trapped there and told that
they had orders to take me directly to the airfield. I said
I would not go, that I wanted to make a phone call to the
U.S. Ambassador, and that I wanted to make a phone call to my
wife. They said we have orders to take you; you will go. I
said no, I will not. I want to drive my car home, I want to
pack my bags, and then I will go. And they said, you will
go. I said no. And then as the eight people gathered around
me, I decided I would go.
They took ne to the airport, held. me there until a 3;45
flight, put me on the airplane with a ticket, I might say, to
Washington, D.C.. I thought that was awfully nice. And lo
and behold, I found my -- they allowed me to make one call,
and that was at 3;30, they came in with a telephone, plugged
it In, and handed it to me, and my wife was on the phone, and
calling me a knucklehead and where are you, and I found
myself In Miami sort of wondering what my next step would be.
That Is my story. I guess I represent to them someone
who has supported them very, very strongly for five years and
then apparently turned against them. I might say I did not
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turn against tnem. I did criticize the way they were
applying force. I did criticize the way they were using
U.S.-provided equipment, and I showed concern that they were
not making a transition to democracy.
Senator Dodd; Colonel, is that the end of your statement?
Colonel Stone; Yes, sir.
Senator Dodd; I thank you very, very much, and that Is al
compelling story.
Unfortunately, It is obviously not an isolated story. It
is unique in your case because of your relationshi3 with the.
PDF over the years, and the deportation, obviously, but as
you are obviously aware from what you witnessed firsthand,
Panamanians do not have the.luxury of being asked to leave
the country when they are caught In this situation; they are
treated In a far less gentle way, obviously.
I wonder if I could just address some questions to you,
Mr. Ambassador, and to you, Colonel, as well. And Doctor,
feel free to jump in if you have some observations quickly.
And if you have to leave, we will understand that as well
Dr. Cook-Deegan: I will take off in just a few minutes.
Senator Dodd; One, Mr. Ambassador and Colonel, In light
of the recent events in Panama, do either of. you still
believe that it would be possible to hold free elections in
Panama If General Norlega remains as Commander-in-Chief of
the Panamanian Defense Forces.
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Is that possible?
Jorden: I think that with Noriega in charge
Ambassador
of the Defense Forces, a free election is totally impossible.
Senator Dodd; Do you agree with that, Colonel?
Colonel Stone: Yes, sir. I stated my belief to the
Ambassador after the experience I had on the 13th of
September, that elections were not in the cards for 1989.
Ambassador Jorden: Might I just add, Mr. Chairman, if
elections were held and Noriega were in, even if they were
free, the Panamanian people would not believe they were free.
Senator Dodd: We have been told that there are elements
within the military who are receptive to democratic reform,
but that for the obvious reasons they are unwilling to step
forward to be heard.
I wonder if that is still the case.
Colonel, maybe this would be more correctly addressed to
Did you see any change prior to your departure in a
willingness on the part of those elements that apparently
exist to begin to take matters in their own hands?
Colonel Stone; I do not think I have seen that. I think
the Panama Defense Force is a rather cohesive organization.
The Panama Defense Force is characterized by a very strong
chain of command. It is characterized by strong orientation
and indoctrination of people throughout the chain of
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command. They periodically hold meetings for different
officer groups in order to explain their positions and to
gain support to their positions.
In this kind of an atmosphere, it is very difficult for
one to become someone who might disagree with the party
tine. And though I personally feel that there are people,
awfully good people in the Panama Defense Force -- I mean, we
have characterized this organization pretty badly today --
there are some very outstanding people In that force, and
there Is no doubt in. my mind that there is concern on their
part for the reputation that their Commandant and their force
is getting not only nationally but internationally. But it
is hard for them to express that kind of a feeling.
So I have seen nothing that would indicate to me
personally that there is dissent.
Senator Dodd; Mr. Ambassador, have you been close enough
to the situation to comme-nt on that?
Ambassador Jorden; No, because the military forces in
Panama have changed significantly since I left.
I do know that there are members of the Defense Forces
who are at least suspect In General Norlega's eyes, and those
individuals are under very close surveillance.
Senator Dodd: All right.
Colonel, you heard the Ambassador comment how important
it was for the United States to restate its commitment, not
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that it necessarily needs to be restated, Out I think for the
purposes of being understood in Panama since General Noriega
is making such an issue of the fact that he believes this is
an effort to undermine the Panama Canal Treaties.
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Since he has tried to make that case, I and others have
suggested that we ought to at least be willing to restate the
principle that we Intend to live up to our international
obligations, In this case specifically the treaties.
Do you agree that that Is important for the United States
to be saying at this juncture?
Colonel Stone; That is essential to be said at this
juncture because it is part of the party line that this is an
attempt by the U.S. government to destabilize them with the
goal of not-living up to the treaty agreement. So it is
exceptionally important to do that.
Senator Dodd; Again for both of you, the Panamanian
people do not have a history of violence, unlike many of
their neighbors in the region; in fact, It is a history of
the absence of violence at all. Nor have they been what you
would call aggressive politically over the years. And yet we
see with.the Crusade, the Civic Crusade, many thought it was
merely going to be sort of a one time event, it might last a
few days, a week, a couple of weeks maybe, but that given the
absence of any history of political activism on the part of
the Panamanian people, that this would prooabiy not last very
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long.
Obviously that has not been the case. It seems to be
growing stronger.
How credible is the Crusade In terms of its ability to
really put the kind of pressure on General Noriega to create
some change?
Ambassador Jorden; I think you are quite right, Mr.
Chairman. What has happened in these last four months is
quite unique in Panamanian history. God knows there have
been demonstrations and riots and all the rest of it in the
past, but never I think have we seen this kind of sustained,-
regular, dally repetition of popular sentiment, feeling and
emotion, and it is quite incredible to many people. I must
say that when it started I had the fear that it would not
last and that people would get ti red.
But the feelings in Panama are so deep at this points and
they have lived under military rule for 19 years, and
everybody, especially in dealing with the excesses of the
last four of five years, everyone is so fed up that I think
no one in Panama is going to be content until General Noriega
departs the scene.
Senator Dodd: Let me ask you, too, two suggestions
made. One In the bill here has to do with the sugar quota,
and Ambassador, let me address this to you. I do not know,
Colonel, if you were in the room when Senator Kennedy raised
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the issue of having these joint maneuvers and the issue of
whether or not It made good sense to have the joint maneuvers
or not to have them, what the effect or impact would be.
You could make a cases as he tried to point out, for them
or for not having them. But the sugar quota thing, let me
address that firsts if I may, Mr. Ambassador.
What would be the effect on the government of Panama? I
am told that the quota that the governments because of the
government's Involvement In the sugar industry so directly,
that to reduce that quota would have an immediate and direct
effect on the government as well as, obviously, on some
private Individuals who are operating, but unlike many other
places around the world, this would have an immediate and
direct effect on the government.
Is that the case? How much of an effect would it have,
and do you think It is a wise decision?
Ambassador Jorden; Wells I think it surely would have a
direct and Immediate effect on the government In that the
President of the Republic is one of the biggest sugar
producers In Panama, and a colleague of his In the government
is the second biggest sugar producer. So there Is no
question there will be an impact on the government.
In terms of the government's finances and so on, It would
surely have an effect because they have been selling their
sugar far above world prices and reaping the benefits, and
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those benefits in the Panamanian system are shared with the
hierarchy.
So it would directly and immediately impact on the
economy.
Senator Dodd: Colonel, you may want to comment as well
on the effectiveness of the Crusade. I did not give you a
chance to respond to that.
Colonel Stone; Well, I agree with what Ambassador Jorden
said. I think the Crusade is a rather unique type of
movement. It is made up of a tremendous amount of
organization. It is a moral force, and it appears to me- to
be nonstoDpable. I just hope they stay in the same type of
activity that they are in right now, a nonviolent activity,..
because I think they will win quicker in that kind of
strategy.
Senator Dodd: Now would you comment on the question of
the advisability of joint maneuvers?
Colonel Stone; This is a very difficult item, it is
difficult because of the presence of SOUTHCOM and a large
number of U.S. forces with families in Panama. General
Norlega has fired a shot across the bow recently a couple of
times warning that he has a lot of cards. When he has
accused us of intervention recently, when some Air Force
officers visited the U.S. Embassy, he I thought was telling
the United States that I can make things very difficult for
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you, military People who are here in Panama.
There Is a quality of life problem that has to be thought
about for U.S. families, for U.S. personnel. Our people in
Panama shop In Panama City, they must leave their military
bases to go to the commissary which is on another military
base, and things can be made a little bit difficult for them,
I think.
That Is a concern, but I might also say that It is my
observation and opinion that the relationship between the
Panama Defense Force and the'U.So military in Panama Is very
important to them. It not only provides credibility to them
locally, they use it for credibility, but it provides
credibility for them internationally when they can show that
they are in a close relationship with the United States and
doing things such as exercises.
I think this Is very dangerous for us at this time. I
think, It is my opinion that we should not be participating
in. these exercises during this very critical perloo. If we
were to participate in these exercises, I would not be
surprised to see some members of the Crusada out In front of
the Embassy. I think they are seriously concerned about the
support of the United States to a continuation of Noriega in
Panama.
Senator Dodd; Thank you very much, Colonel.
Senator Helms.
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Senator Helms: Mr. Chairman, thank you, sir.
Mr. Ambassador, let me get into this business of the
question of if and how much money General Noriega has
received In the past and may be receiving now from the U.S.
government in the form of some payment from the United States
government.
What do you know about that?
Ambassador Jorden: I do not know anything about the
amounts or extent of money payments. I know that he has been
closely associated with the United States for a long time
Senator Helms: Would you. tell me what agency was paying
Ambassador Jorden: Well, as I say, I cannot testify that
he has been paid. He has had a close relationship with the
Central Intelligence Agency for many years. As you and 1
know, the Agency In-operating abroad generally has close
contacts with the existing intelligence service in many, many
countries. Panama, in this case, was General Noriega as far
as intelligence was concerned.
So It is no strange that there would be that
relationship, out what the inner workings were and how much
money changed hands, I really do not know. I have no idea.
Senator Helms; But you do know there was that
relationship.
Ambassador Jorden: Yes, I do.
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Senator Helms; And the fair presumption is that he did
not do it for nothing.
Ambassador Jorden: That Is a fair presumption I think,
Senator. On the other hands Intelligence peoples as you
know, often operate on the basis of I will tell you something
if you tell me something.
Senator Helms: Well, here is a man who is clearlys who
has been and still Is clearly on the make and clearly on the
take. I cannot get into classified testimony that Senator
Dodd and I and others have heard, but this'has got to be one
of the most corrupt fellows that I have even heard about.
Ambassador Jorden: In recent history.
Senator Helms: Wells I will go back a little beyond that
There is some talks not a whole lot, particularly since
the Senate has. acted.so decisively about resuming some sort
of military and economic aid to Panama, suppose this were to
be done -- and I promise you, Senator Dodds that I will use
whatever parliamentary notions come to mind to prevent it if
it comes up In the Senate suppose this should happens and aid
to Panama were resumed? What kind of signal would that send
to Noriega?
Ambassador Jorden: If aid were resumed?
Senator He! ms: Yes, sir.
Ambassador Jorden: Well, I think the signal would be
loud and clear that the United States had capitulated.
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Senator Helms; Was that a good leading question?
Ambassador Jorden; Yes.
Senator Helms: Well, let's talk about his relationship
with Mr. Castro. I remember when I first started disclosing.
what I.could lawfully and properly disclose that not only did
the Panamanian government controlled press in Panama get on
my case, but so did a lot of the media up here. But tell me
what you know about the political ties and business dealings
with Castro.
Ambassador Jorden; I think I have to point out, Senator,
that, you know, I left Panama at the end of 1978. I have
retired from government. I am not reading the cables. And
when I was there he was the G-2 of the Guardia Nacional. He
had clear contacts with Cuba. As a matter of fact, he
performed a service for the United States in connection with
Cuba in getting an American out of jail. So --
Senator Helms; He has referred to that many times.
Ambassador Jorden: So it is only fair to cite that one
instance of cooperation as opposed to a long catalogue of
other more personal activity.
Senator Helms; That is right. There was that one act of
gallantry.
Ambassador Jorden: He did it because General Torrijos
told him to do It.
Senator Helms; Exactly.
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Ambassador Jorden: Loud and clear, you know. It was not
any altruism or friendship for the United States that brought
it on except in the sense that Torrijos was friendly to me
and to the United States and wanted to do something for us
and did. it. And Norlega did what he was told.
Senator Helms: Let me ask you the same question that I
asked three Se,ators. Senator Cranston, by that time, had
joined Senator Kennedy and Senator D?Amato.
Is there any doubt in your mind about the drug
trafficking activities, and now I am asking both of you
gentlemen, Is there any doubt In your mind about. the drug
trafficking activities and money laundering of General
Noriega?
Ambassador Jorden: There is no doubt in my mind, Senator.
Senator Helms: Colonel?
Colonel-Stone; I really do not think I could comment on
that, Senator. In my activities with them I worked very
close with them at a tactical level for exercises that were
to impede drug trafficking along their coast. These were
exercises with the U.S. Coast Guard. So I really have no
information other than they were very helpful to me.
Senator Helms; All right.
Well, one question that needs to be moved to the front
burner a little bit in terms of our own interests, suppose
the POF under 4oriega continues and continues and continues.
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Then some real threat to the Panama Canal should occurs can
the PDF as now constituted under Noriega, can they protect
the Canal?
I guess, Colonel, you would need to answer.
Colonel Stones Weli, I think that Is also difficult in
that we would have to define what protection Is. I am not
sure that U.S. forces stationed in Panama can protect the
Canal. I think that the Panama Defense Force, which Is, the
military side of it is a well trained force and they work
very hard, and they have the --ca-p-a-b i l i ty of providing the
limited kind of protection at the national level that we
could provide, putting troops at vital Installations, keeping
angry mobs away from installations or the Canal. They can do
those kinds of things very effectively, I would think.
Ambassador Jordens Senator, If I might just interject.
Senator Helms: Please do.
Ambassador Jordens I recall two men who should know that
subject quite dell. One Is General Torrijos and the other
was General George Brown, the Chairman o.f the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, and both of them said the Panama Canal could not be
protected against a small, aggressive, well organized
terrorist force.
Senator Helms; Yes. And you know, we are losing sight
of that ball more and more here. We are focusing on other
things. But it is paramount in my own Interest.
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Last month or maybe earlier this month, recently, the PDF
detained and rather brutally beat up ten military personnel.
Do you know about that, Colonel?
Colonel Stone; Yes, sir.
Senator Helms: Did the United States send a protest,
official or otherwise, do you know?
Colonel Stone: I believe that occurred, sir. I was out
of the Embassy at the time, thought, but I was under the
impression that occurred.
Senator Helms; Do you happen to know anything about that.
Ambassador Jorden; I do not know.
Senator Helms; Mr. Chairman, I have only one other
question. I am sorry Dr. Cook-Deegan had to leave.
Incidentally, let me say right now that all three of
these gentlemen have been very helpful to me. The testimony
has been superb, and I personally appreciate your giving the
time to come.
Or, Cook-Deegan was describing two little girls who were
shot, and I wanted to ask his a question, were the police
provoked by these children? Why did they pick them out to
shoot?
Do you know anything aoout the case?
Colonel Stone: No, sir, I do not.
Ambassador Jorden: No, sir, I do not.
Senator Helms; I am very sensitive. I have a couple of
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granddaughters, and I know you translate into how you would
feel about their being treated like that.
But the question has been suggested to me, and I think it
is a good ones It General Noriega were to step down or be
forced out, what would, in your judgments now.-- I ask both
of you this question -- would be a reasonable timetable for
conducting free and open elections in Panama?
Ambassador Jorden: Well, that. is a questions Senators
that of course the Panamanians would have to answer.
Senator Helms.: Right.
Ambassador Jorden; I have talked to many of them about
that, you know, how long it would take. The thing is that
there is an Augean stable as regards the electoral process
that needs to oe cleaned out here. They would have to get a
new electoral tribunal because the present one Is loaded with
Noriega cronies.
Their best estimates talking now about the Panamanian
politicians who know most about its Is that it would take
about a year.
Senator Helms: About a year.
Ambassador Jorden: Yes.
Senator Helms: Here is a question you can answer.
Supposing such an election were ultimately to occurs and
I hope it wills would you be willing to assist in serving as
an Impartial international observer at those elections?
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Ambassador Jorden: I certainly would.
Senator Helms: We will recommend you.
Gentlemen, thank you very much.
Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Senator Dodd; I Just have one more question for the
Colonel.
Just, you were talking about your feelings as someone who
had worked so closely in military training, and I do not
recall you being before this committee, but I am sure had you
been asked a few years ago, you would have been here and.been
petitioning or strongly recommending that we provide
additional military assistance, and yet I had this sense
while you were talking about your own personal experience,
your sense of chagrin seeing people and equipment that you
had helped provide and helped train being used in an abusive
way.
It is a constant, it is a growing problem. Just this
year, for instance, I supported poi ice training funds for El
Salvador. For year that had not been done, and because I
felt you have to try. The absence of it almost has a
predictable response. So you keep at it. But yet it is a
constant cry we get all the time that this kind of training,
this kind of assistance, and then you turn around and you see
the very forces that you were working with use our own
eauipment and angage in tactics for which we are in no small
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measure responsible.
How do you account for this, or can you? What are your
own suggestions In this regard?
Colonel Stone; Well, as I looked at my Panama
experience, I was counting on going the whole long run to the
year 2000 to be able to have a long time to try to change
behavioral habits, and I think that is one of the problems we
have. We train and equip and we make them better at being a
soldier or a sailor or an airman and working with our
equipment, but we do not do well in changing their behavior
and changing their attitudes, and this is. a very difficult
thing. We found this in our experience with Nicaragua and
with Somoza, and we trained so many of his troops for so many
years* but the institutions that they return to are very,
very strong and regimented,. and have their values, and if
they do not fall into those values, it is very difficult for
them In terms of advancement in their organization.
So this is an extremely difficult question, Senator, and
I have thought about It an awful lot over the years, and I
must admit that I have not resolved this. I sometimes think
that the experience of the military in the Philipoine.s might
be worth documenting to see how these groups of reformers
tended to form. I know we did a lot of West Pointers out of
the Philippines, sent a lot of people to West Point, and that
may be --
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Senator Dodd; Such as General Ramos.
Colonel Stone: Yes, and that may be a way to effect
these kinds of behavioral changes over a long period. But in
the short term it is highly impossible.
Senator Dodd: Well, I appreciate your response, and
there is not really a simple answer to it, but I was struck
by your own coament earlier as you said you watched those
things occurring.
Well, first I want to thank my colleague.Senator Helms
for staying here. I know that he is deeply interested in
this subject., obviously. It is always a pleasure to work.
with him. We spend a lot of time Disagreeing, but we also
spend a lot of time agreeing on things, more times than
people think,, I suspect.
We are grateful to both of you and to Or. Cook-Deegan as
well, and maybe we will submit some questions to Dr.
Cook-Deegan.
Senator Helms; May I ask just one final question of the
colonel?
Senator Dodd: Certainly.
Senator Helms; This is personal.
Have you made any judgment about whether you are going to
bring your family to the United States?
Colonel Stone: I have some very Important decisions to
make in the near future? Senator, and I am not sure what
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those decisions are going to be.
Senator Hei ms Z Okay.
All I was going to say is if you decide to bring them
here, if you need any help, let us know.
Colonel Stone: Yes, sir. Thank you very much, sir.
Senator Helms: You are welcome.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Dodd; Thank you.
Senator Helms: I would like for the Director of the
National Civic Crusade not to scoot out the door. I would
i i.ke to say hello again and to shake hands, and if you would
just sort of come forward as we adjourn here, I would
appreciate It.
Senator Dodd: Thank, you both very much again.
This subconmlttee stands adjourned..
(Whereupon, at 4:18 p.m., the. subcommittee adjourned.)
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