MCLAUGHLIN ONE-ON-ONE

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP90-00965R000504110002-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 14
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 25, 2012
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: November 30, 1986
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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McLaughlin One-on-One
November 30, 1986 Noon
WRC - TV
Senator Durenberger
JOHN McLAUGHLIN: Why didn't Ronald Reagan tell
Congress about the Iran/Contra/US connections?
(Senator Durenberger's personal background.)
Senator Durenberger, you're Chairman of the Select
Committee on Intelligence. And am I correct in saying
that on Monday you're going to open hearings on the
Iranian affair?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Well, the committee began an
Informal Investigation about the eighth or tenth of
November. And starting Monday, we're going to start
calling witnesses under oath. And practically all of
the people who have already been named as being
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involved in this case will be part of that
investigation.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: What do you hope to discover?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Our principal concern is the
oversight function. Our concern is the fact that for a
period of about a year and a half, part of our
government in this country was out of control of the
people of this country. And the process by which that
happened, who was responsible, what laws may have been
violated in one way or another, that's what we're
looking for.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you think that the White House
tried to elude or circumvent the oversight function of
the Congress?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Well, there's no question about
that.
I mean, they made the deliberate decision at some point
in time, probably in December of last year, that this
particular operation as they have designed it was, in
their words, either so secret or so sensitive that they
couldn't comply with at least the presumption in the
law that they informed neither the intelligence
committees or the top eight leadership.
vR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you find that unpersuasive and
incredible?
SENATOR DUREMBERGER: I find it -- I don't find it
incredible because I have been working for a couple of
years to try to avoid that sort of thing. I made a
speech, for example, at Johns Hopkins a year ago in
which I tried to encourage the Administration to use
the oversight process to their benefit. So I don't
find it incredible at all.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: This past week Attorney General Meese
appeared before the press and the American people,
describing what he knew had happened through his
investigation. The President also made a statement.
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Do you feel that this effort on the part of the White
House and the Justice Department is to come clean with
the American people? Or does it look to you at this
point as though they're trying to shield the President?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: The former.
I think everybody in this country has recognized for a
long time the special value of Ronald Reagan. And that
is -- for some of us it's a personal value; for most of
us it is the unique value to this government, to this
people and to the world.
My impression, certainly from the meeting that preceded
the President and Ed Meese going to that conference
with the leadership, is that this President does not
like to be deceived. This President does not like to
be kept in the dark.
NR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you think he was kept in the dark?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I think he was kept in the dark
on the details.
\R. McLAUGHLIN: Do you think that Donald Regan knew-
- his chief of staff?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I suppose there are a lot of
people who knew more than we know they knew at this
point. That's one of the reasons we're all doing
investigations.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: You know that Brent Scowcroft, who
held the position of National Security Adviser and who
is regarded by many as a model servant in that office;
Henry Kissinger, Mr.-Colby, the former head of the CIA,
rand Stansfield Turner, the former head of the CIA, all
concur that it is practically incredible to believe
that Oliver North, the lieutenent colonel working on
the NSC staff, was the formulator of Iran and
Nicaraguan policy, as it has been described in these
past several weeks. And therefore there must have been
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authorization and charter above him. Therefore, where
do you go?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Expertise.
MR. McLAUGHLIN; You go to Poindexter. And every one
of those believes it goes above Poindexter. So you go
to Regan.
Where do you come in on that? Don't you agree that
Regan must have signed off on it? And would Regan sign
off on something on that without President Reagan
knowing about it?
SENATOR DURENBERGERR: To give you my present opinion-
- and I don't have all the facts -- my present opinion
is that the design was Ollie North.
I suspect he had help freom a couple of other people at
about his level. I think I know who some of them are,
but we'll find out for sure.
But the framework for that design was built around the
President. It's been built for several years around
the President.
This President is in maybe -- I hate to use the word a
frenzy, but something approaching a frenzy with regard
to our inability as a country to come to grips with
what's going on in Nicaragua.
The failure of the Congress to appreciate as the
President believes he appreciates, that we have to do
something in Nicaragua, that we have to do something in
Iran.
And I think Ollie just built the scheme within a
framework that the President, his Chief of Staff and a
lot of his advisers felt was appropriate.
McLAUGHLIN: You mean the President gave the marching
orders, I want help for the Contras. I don't want you
to break the law, and I don't want to know all about
it, but I want deniability?
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SENATOR DURENBERGER: Yes.
W. McLAUGHLIN: Do you think those were the marching
orders?
SENATOR DURENBERGER; I'm sure the marching orders--
well, the marching orders all over the place for the
last five years have been to do something about
Nicaragua, and for the last two years to do something
about the need that the Contras have for support for
their lethal operation.
SIR. McLAUGHLIN: How were you impressed with the
Israeli involvement, particularly Shimon Peres, the
present Foreign Minister, the former Prime Minister,
saying that this is a mild act and it was executed in
cooperation with and at the request of the United
States? Talking about the Israeli transfer of funds
to brokers representing Iran, from which there emerged
a brokerage fee, if it can be called that. And that
brokerage fee being in large part conveyed through a
Swiss bank account to the Contras, probably in the form
of military aid purchased on the gray markets of Europe
by General -- one of the former generals, Secord?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I was told to keep my answer
short, so I will say I'm unimpressed with the argument.
Mr. McLAUGHLIN: You are?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I'm unimpressed with it. But I
understand that that's the position he has to take.
'MR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you know anything about the Israeli
involvement beyond its present description? Can you
speak to that?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No, not at this stage.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you know that there's a report in
Friday's New York Times that said that this is not the
first time Israel has been involved in the sale, and
that it's not the first time that the proceeds from the
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sale in the form of -- I guess it's brokerage fee--
has been funneled back to the Contras?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I'm not aware of the New York
Times report, but I'm sure that the facts will bear out
a wider Israeli involvement on the Iran side. I cannot
at this point confirm anything to do with their
involvement with the Contras.
NR. McLAUGHLIN: We'll be right back.
(Commercial announcements)
Mr. McLAUGHLIN: Senator Durenberger, Chairman of the
Select Committee on Intelligence, are the hearings
going to be open or closed that will start on Monday?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: The hearings are all closed.
The Committee will get together probably mid-December
according to our present time, to talk about whether or
not there should be any open hearings, but at the
present time we don't contemplate that.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: With your knowledge of the various
laws involved here, and there is a true network of
laws, as you know better than anyone -- do you think
it's possible that Oliver North could get out of this
without being found to be in direct violation of any
laws?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I suppose it's possible, although
it's somewhat unrealistic give -- you're right about
the network -- it strikes me that the last list I saw
was seven or eight US laws at least that were involved.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Well, if you take, say the Bolan
Amendment which is a major one -- no intelligence funds
to overthrow the Sandinistas, government funds -- but,
you know the --
SENATOR DURENBERGER: -- Ayatollah's money.
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MR. McLAUGHLIN: --the brokerage fees was what went to
the -- can he claim that?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I think that there are probably
ways to get around -- this is actually Bolan we're
talking about -- the success of the Bolan Amendment
which prohibited the use of our -- or taxpayers' funds.
But, I think he's going to be hard pressed to impress
anybody in the Congress that he didn't violate the law
whether he technically did or not.
W. McLAUGHLIN: The law or the spirit?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: The law itself. Because the law
is pretty explicit about the expenditure of funds, and
I think that includes people on the payroll who are
engaged in acts that are in contravention to --
ivR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you think he's being scapegoated?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No, I don't.
I understand you've just taken a sort of informal poll
and found to the contrary.
But, no, I don't think he's scapegoated. That doesn't
mean that there isn't a wider circle here, but nobody
is putting Ollie up to dry on behalf of a bunch of
other folks.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Can you explain how the weapons were
transferred from the Department of Defense, the DOD, to
the CIA, and how come the Joint Chiefs of Staff were
unaware of that transfer?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No, I can't. I would if I could
but I can't.
%R. McLAUGHLIN: Do you have any way of understanding-
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Yes, it's just that that happens
to be at present a gap in my knowledge. We do have a
record, I think, of it at the present time.
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NR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you have any knowledge at present
of any other covert action taken by the National
Security Council through Oliver North since he's been
there, since '83, unrelated to Iran, unrelated to
Nicaragua, that would be prima facie violation of law?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I don't have any present
knowledge.
I think Ollie's activities, both with regard to Iran
and now and in the past, more precisely with regard to
Nicaragua may answer that question. I don't, as we sit
here, have Information that would lead me to believe
that he's involved in other --
NR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you have any knowledge that George
Bush, through his contacts with Max Gomez who is
connected with the Contra operation, was aware in any
way, shape or form of this Iranian matter?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No.
~R. McLAUGHLIN: You have no knowledge to that effect.
And no suspicions to that effect?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No. None whatsoever.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: General Meese, at his presentation
this past week, spoke about intercepts. Were there any
intercepts from them, made by the National Security
Agency, or is it possible they were made by the IRS
trying to determine whether there was drug money coming
out of those accounts for the Contras?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I think the ones that Ed was
talking about in the press conference were NSA or NSA
related. I'm not aware of the latter as a means of
information collecting.
NR. McLAUGHLIN; Do you know why the White House opened
f-- up? Did Bill Casey, the Director of the Central Intel-
ligence Agency, give testimony before your committee
this week?
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SENATOR DURENBERGER: Yes.
%R.McLAUGHLIN: What did he say?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Can't tell you what he said. I
can tell you he was forthcoming in his testimony.
He did not give us everything we know that he probably
has in his possession, but that wasn't because he
withheld anbything, because he had to leave and to go
to testify to the House. But in effect, he came up
what he said he believes to be his present knowledge of
CIA involvement in this operation.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Does that include the opening of a
Swiss bank account?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: That did not include the opening.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: It did not?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Did not include the opening.
:SIR. McLAUGHLIN:
In a published report, again in the
New York Times, it said that President Reagan himself
called the CIA into the act in January in order to
clean up the mystery as to what was happening to those
funds which would have been part of the brokerage fee
that ought to have gone to the Contras, which is saying
flat out in so many words that Reagan knew about the
whole effort, certainly in January. Do you know
anything about that?
SENATOR DURENberg: Nope, I don't.
McLAUGHLIN: That's all news to you, too?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: That's news to me, too.
yR. McLAUGHLIN: And that may develop next week in your
closed testimony?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: That will develop.
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I mean, the precise involvement of the CIA may not be
totallly known to Bill Casey, although I suspect that
with a few reminders it will.
But we're probably going to call six or eight or more
current or past members of the Central Intelligencce
Agency because there's no one person who knows all the
facts of their involvement.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: We'll be right back.
(Commercial announcements)
MR. McLUAGHLIN: Supppose Oliver North, before your
committee, the Senate Select Intelligence Committee
Chairman, David Durenberger -- says that he briefed--
Oliver North briefed Donald Regan, Donald Regan himself
briefed President Reagan, and he himself -- Oliver
North himself briefed Ronald Reagan. What do you think
the President should then do in light of that testi-
mony?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Well, I think that's a premise I
find hard to believe.
And even if you were right, then obviously what the
President does is put it in perspective.
I don't know that at that point anybody is more likely
to believe Colonel North than they are to believe
Ronald Reagan if Ronald Reagan announces specifics.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Well, suppose when Donald Regan -- is
he going to appear before you next week?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Donald Regan is not, no.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Well, eventually Donald Regan will
give testimony under oath. If Donald Regan says "Yes,
I knew that President Reagan knew," what should
President Reagan do then?
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SENATOR DURENBERGER: I think the President, whether
that happens or not -- this President needs to make
clear to the American public that while the two years
that he has left in office -- he's not going to leave
anymore gaps in their control of their government,
which, in effect has happened in this particular case.
The President isn't anymore entitled than you or I to
go beyond the law or to contravene the laws of this
country even for some presumably more noble objective.
P,R. McLAUGHLIN: Well, that's true. But he also has
powers deriving from his status and responsibility -- a
solitary one, of being commander- in-chief. Could he
not then say, "I sent the money to the Contras pursuant
to my powers as commander-in-chief?"
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No. No, I think that the
business about being commander-in-chief has a lot to do
with waging war or eliminating the possibility of a
terrorist strike or something like that. For example,
what he did in Libya may fall in that regard. But when
he deliberately contravenes the law, that isn't
anywhere in his power as commander-ion-chief.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Well, I mean here you get into a very
gray area.
We don't know whether any law has been technically
violated. Your assumption is that it has. But you get
into areas of obscurity here where he could build a
very strong case that he's not in violation of the law.
SENATOR DURENBERGER: If he says he collected money
from the Ayatollah and paid it to the Contras, it's not
in violation of the law --
MR. MccLAUGHLIN: I'm putting it loosely.
What he can say is that he knew about it, he authorized
the involvement of the United States to the extent that
it occurred, and that he believes in it, he continues
to believe in it and he did so by reason of his powers
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and his responsibility as commander- in-chief. What's
wrong with his saying that? Would he get away with it?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No, he wouldn't get away with it.
Because in this particular case he's already -- I mean
his credibility is already on edge, and there's a whole
lot of people trying to pull it back --
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Well, if that is what happened, and if
he's truly going to 'fess up, should he not say it?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: If this whole line of questioning
has any basis in fact, which I doubt that it has, yes,
he ought to 'fess up. He ought to explain to us the
lesson he's learned from the whole process. And he
ought to indicate to us why he believes this sort of
thing will never happen again.
,R. McLAUGHLIN: What do you think your successor, who
r is David Boren, as Chairman of the Senate Select
Committee on Intelligence -- what do you think he's
going to recommend by way of the function, the
operation of the National Security Council? What
advice are you going to give him??
SENATOR DURENBERGER: Well, the advice that I'm going
to give him is the same advice I was given by my
mentors, if you will -- Barry Goldwater in particular-
- and that is that we have only one President at a time
in this country, and that the job of those who advise
the Pesident is to make sure that his credibility, his
honesty are preserved.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Are you going to advise Senator Boren
that part of the charter of the National Security
Council ought to be to handle counter-terrorist covert
operations?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No. I think Dave already knows
from the experience we've had that when you pull a
national security advice together with intelligence,
together with operations, you dilute all three.
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lvR. McLAUGHLIN: Do you want to give that to the CIA?
Do you want to give it to DOD?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: You want to keep NSC giving
advice; you want the CIA and other agencies doing
operations; you want to keep the Intelligence function
separate from the other two.
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Who would you like to see replace
Admiral Poindexter as head of the NSC?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I don't have a recommendation.
What I want to see is number one, that Ronald Reagan
focuses his attention on a couple of do-able foreign
policy objectives and not try to get into everything.
And that he make a decision about who his Secretary of
State's going to be and give that person responsibility
for all the rest of this patter that has accumulated in
front of him.
MR. McLAUGLIN: You're assuming the Secretary of State
is going to be relieved of command?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No. I'm assuming that the
Secretary of State is going to stay there, but he's
going to stay there with a mandate that says Ronald
Reagan isn't going to try to be everything in foreign
policy -- that the Secretary of State, now that he is
rel ieved of having Jesse Helms on his back all he time
is going to take more responsibility for foreign
policy.
`.R. McLAUGHLIN: We'll be right back.
(Commercial announcements)
MR. McLAUGHLIN: Members of Congress have been jailed;
they've been convicted of moral lapses, for violating
confidence. And if they were in the CIA they wouldn't
be allowed to participate.
Do you think that Congress -- Members of Congress ought
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to take a polygraph test in order to improve the
confidentiality , the secrecy of oversight?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: No. But I think some of the
on leaks
people who are alleging that heCongress
that like a
state-
sieve all ought to take polygraph tests
ment.
In the eight years that I've been on the Senate
Intelligence Conirmi t tee I know two cases -- one on the
House side and one on the Senate side, in which there's
a demonstrable leak of classified information. I mean
where somebody got hurt because of it.
^R. MCLAUGHLIN: So it's a non-problem?
SENATOR DURENBERGER: I think it's a non-problem other
than finding out why a lot of congressmen and senators
are being maligned.
R. McLAUGHLIN: Thanks for being my guest on One-on-
One.
SENATOR DURENBERGER: My pleasure.
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