SECRETARY OF STATE, GEORGE SHULTZ INTERVIEW

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000301770004-8
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 14, 2010
• Sequence Number: 4
• Publication Date: July 1, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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RADIO TV REPORTS, INC.
4701 WILLARD AVENUE, CHEVY CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 [phone]
FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGRAM The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour STAnON WETA-TV
PBS Network
DATE July 1, 1985 7:00 P.M. CITY Washington, D.C.
SUBJECT Secretary of State, George Shultz Interview
JIM LEHRER: Thirty-nine Americans are free after 17
days as hostages in Beirut. They are now in West Germany and
should be back in the United States tomorrow. Everyone claims
there was no deal, but today, 24 hours after the Americans were
released, the Israeli Cabinet agreed to set free 300 of the 732
Lebanese the TWA hijackers wanted released. Also today, the
United States announced it will move immediately to close down
Beirut International Airport to make it off limit to terrorists.
We talk about all of this now in a newsmaker interview
with the U.S. official most in charge of resolving the situation,
the Secretary of State, George Shultz.
Mr. Secretary, welcome.
SECRETARY OF STATE GEORGE SHULTZ: Thank you.
LEHRER: First the action against the Beirut
International Airport. Spell out what the purpose of that is,
please, sir.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, the purpose is to place off
limits, internationally, that airport until the people of Beirut
put terrorists off limits. That airport has become a kind of
safe haven, as a result of the way in which it has received
planes and received the hijackers. And so we want to place it
off limits.
LEHRER: Well now, what would they have to do to make it
off limits to terrorists?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, first of all, they have to show
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us that they'll find the peoplel who committed these acts,
hijacked the plane and murdered Robert Stethem and held those
people hostage, and do something about that, bring them to
justice. I think there needs to be a greater sense of control
around that airport.
So there are a lot of things that need to be done to
make that airport for civilization, which it isn't right now.
Let me just make the point that the people who have the
greatest stake in this, perhaps, are the people of Lebanon, the
people of Beirut. I've spent time there myself, both in the good
days when Beirut was a great place and, of course, in more recent
times. And those are wonderful people with a great culture and a
great flare for things. And Beirut at one time was a crossroads.
And they have the greatest stake of anybody in bringing it back
to its former state. And it's a long ways from there now.
LEHRER: Well, is the airport not now under the control
of the Amal movement of the Shiite Moslems?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: It seems to be more or less under
their control. But it's a loose sort of proposition.
LEHRER: Have you asked or has somebody asked the Amal
to come up with these hijackers and turn them over to the United
States, or take some action of some kind against them?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: We will be in that process, and it's
going to be handled by the Justice Department.
LEHRER: And what would be the process, Mr. Secretary?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: The process of identifying those
responsible and bringing them to justice, directly in Beirut, or,
if they wish, in other ways.
LEHRER: What are the realistic prospects of that ever
happening, sir?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, we're going to work on it, and
we'll see. And it's one of the tests.
LEHRER: Who's being tested?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: The people of Beirut, who presumably
want to have their country part of civilized society and their
airport operating and other commercial facilities operating as
part of the world economy, are being tested.
LEHRER: Now, the action that the United States is going
to take to try to close the airport, the announcement that I read
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said that all American flights will be suspended. But there
aren't any really scheduled American flights there now, anyhow,
are there, sir?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: There are a number of flights that go
back and forth between the United States and Beirut directly is
negligible.
LEHRER: So who are you going to...
SECRETARY SHULTZ: There are a number of ways in which
people get ticketed to Beirut in the United States through other
airlines. We'll stop that.
We are going out to people throughout the world,
governments, and asking them to take a similar step. There are
more flights, obviously, between Beirut and other points that are
closer to it than the United States.
We felt that we had to take a step ourselves before we
could suggest to others that they do likewise.
LEHRER: What can you do specifically about Middle East
Airlines, which is the Lebanese airline and is the main airline,
obviously, that flies in and out of Beirut? What are you going
to do about them?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: We're not trying to do something
about that airline. We're trying to do something about that
airport. Actually, that airline flies throughout the Middle East
and other points. And as you know, the Beirut airport has been
out of commission, in effect, for long stretches of time. But
the airline has continued to go ahead and fly.
We're not out to get the airline. We're out to get the
airport put off limits and made -- changed so that it is not a
haven for terrorists.
LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, is today's action on the airport
the only thing that's going to be done in the next -- today or in
the next few days, or is it the first of many things to come?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: It's the -- it is part of a program
of efforts to combat terrorism. This program has been going on
for a long time. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to have to
continue to go on for a long time. It has a definite strategy to
it. And I'll be glad to describe it to you if you want to, but
it takes a little time.
LEHRER: Well, we've got it, so I'd love to hear it.
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SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, first of all, I think it's
important that the American people and people throughout the
world become convinced that the terrorist threat is a genuine
threat to our civilization. I thin, unfortunately, the
terrorists are doing a pretty good job of convincing people of
that.
I think we also have to have people see that in the
tactics of handling terrorists, it's a mistake to give in to
their demands, to let them be successful. When they're
successful, all you do is encourage them. So there is an
educational process here about the nature of terrorism, its
international dimensions, and the tactical choices involved in
handling a particular problem, such as the one we had.
So that's the first step. That's been going on. We've
articulated these problems in past speeches. And that's an
ongoing proposition.
The second thing, and critical, is intelligence about
terrorism, intelligence on behalf of the United States and of
other governments. And then linking our intelligence together so
that we know what's going on.
As one measure of some progress here and that results
can be obtained, in the first nine -- last nine months, there
have been a little over 60 discoveries of plots or intentions
that have been uncovered or stopped, something done about them.
Some of them have been publicized, others not. But we're
beginning to learn how to do this. And I think those who are
involved in terrorism would be surprised at the amount of
information that's being accumulated about them.
The third thing is to take defensive measures -- I'm
sorry. Did somebody...
LEHRER: No, I was just listening.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I got something else through here.
LEHRER: I'm sorry. Apologize for that.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: The third thing is to take defense
measures of the kind that have been in effect for quite a while
on airlines, like our airport security and airplane security.
Obviously, it's hard to keep people up all the time, but we have
to do that. It has worked. Some 35,000 firearms or other
explosive charges have been seized at American airports over the
last 20 years as a result of the surveillance procedures.
So, there are things that can be done that work.
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Our embassies are being changed around so that they are
more secure places, and so on. There are a lot of those kinds of
measures.
And finally, I think we have to bring ourselves to a
more active defensive posture, so that we do things about
terrorism and to terrorists that raise the cost to them of what
they're doing; and also get ourselves in a position where we can
preempt things that they might do. And the 60-or-so incidents
that I mentioned are examples of that, but I think,
unfortunately, we're probably going to have to do it with more
force at times.
LEHRER: Well, thank you.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mr. Secretary, has the Administration
ruled out specific strikes against the terrorist training camps
in Lebanon where some of these people who were responsible might
be based?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I'm not going to discuss things we
might have ruled out or ruled in, or whatever, that are
prospective of that kind.
WOODRUFF: There was a report out of London today that
Iran may be tied in with the hijacking. Does the Administration
have any information along those lines?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, we have information that links
Iran with various elements of Khomeini supporters in Lebanon.
But we have no evidence of Iran being directly involved in the
inception of the hijacking.
WOODRUFF: Does the Administration know who the original
hijackers were?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Yes.
WOODRUFF: Can you go after them?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: We will.
WOODRUFF: In what fashion?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: You'll see. You'll see.
WOODRUFF: You mean Admin...
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Among other things, I think there are
legal steps that will be taken. And it's important to take them.
WOODRUFF: What do you mean, legal steps? You mean in a
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SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, these people committee crimes.
Murder is a crime. Hijacking is a crime.
WOODRUFF: But do legal steps work in a country where
you have near-anarchy, as we have in Lebanon?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: They may or may not. But we will
take them nevertheless. And then we'll take other steps.
WOODRUFF: How much concern is there when you consider
any retaliatory steps -- and I presume you consider what you're
talking about retaliation. Is that the proper...
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I don't consider that bringing
somebody to justice is really retaliation. It's just justice.
If somebody murders another person, you want to find that person
and try that person and sentence that person properly for that
deed.
WOODRUFF: But if that sort of proper judicial process
is not available, would the Administration consider steps outside
that?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: We'll have to see how we will proceed
WOODRUFF: How much, in the context of that, do you take
into consideration the fact that innocent lives, the lives of
innocent people might be lost in some type retaliatory...
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, we have absolutely no desire,
and great concern, that innocent lives not be lost. That's
obviously something that you have to have on your mind.
WOODRUFF: What about the other seven Americans
kidnapped who are being held, we believe, somewhere in Lebanon?
Do we have any more information at this point about where they
are or any hope that we can get them back?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: We certainly have hope, and we have
been working hard on this continuously. And we have tried to not
only get the hostages that were held and were released released,
but to use the momentum created by that to get the other seven
released too. And we continue to try to build on that.
WOODRUFF: What do you think the prospects are?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, I'm not going to try to lay
down probabilities. We've been working at it for over a year,
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and it's frustrating because we haven't got them out. But we're
going to keep working at it continuously.
WOODRUFF: You think the chances are better as a result
of the hijacking incident?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, at least it created a certain
momentum, perhaps. And we'll try to build on it.
WOODRUFF: The Administra -- you have said, the
President has said, "We're not going to make any deals with
terrorists." And yet these people who committed the hijacking
and the people who cooperated have, in essence, got what they
wanted, or they appear to be getting what they wanted. Three
hundred of the Shiite prisoners in Israel are being released,
with prospects that the rest will be released.
What have they lost by doing this?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: My understanding is that probably
those who will be released, that Israel announced it's releasing,
would have been released some time ago had it not been for the
hijackers and their demands. In other words, Israel has said
long before this took place, and they've repeated as we've gone
along, that they intended to release those prisoners, that they
were there, as the Defense Minister, Rabin, said yesterday,
temporarily. And so they have resumed something that was stopped
by the hijackers.
So, they didn't achieve this release. They had held it
WOODRUFF: But Mr. Secretary, my point is neither have
they lost anything. It was what they wanted. And it appears now
that it's going to happen. And they're none the worse off for
having done what they did.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I think they have lost a great deal,
and the people of Lebanon have lost a great deal, the people of
Beirut have lost a great deal.
Of course, it is a kind of chaotic situation right
there, anyway, right now. But still, they get themselves more
and more classified as a place that's outside the boundaries of
civilized life. And that's a very tough thing to do. And the
hijackers have been doing that to their neighbors.
WOODRUFF: But what is to stop them from trying it
again, to stop them or any other terrorists from trying this
exact same sort of hijacking again?
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SECRETARY SHULTZ: The things -- we must act on this.
And that's the kind of program that I was describing here a while
ago. And we are making progress with it.
WOODRUFF: But at this point, what's to stop a group of
terrorists, like the ones who took over the TWA plane, from
trying it again at some airport somewhere?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: What is to stop them is better
security in airports, raise the level of that very strongly; to
rally the international community to see how terrible this is,
and not just for the United States, but for countriess all over
the world. So that when a hijacking takes place,if it does --
perhaps it will -- it is dealt with firmly at places where the
plane comes down, and so on and so on and so on. We have to keep
working at these things. That doesn't say that there's a perfect
system out there.
WOODRUFF: But again, you've said, the President has
said terrorists are going to be held accountable. And as of this
point, the people who pulled this off are running around, free
men.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: They're running around, free men.
And to a certain extent, they've been exalted by all of the
interviews that have been held during this period. And it is one
of the problems, that as soon as somebody becomes a terrorist,
that person becomes a celebrity, and he's being interviewed
constantly on television and held up, and his opinions are
sought, and so on. I think that's another kind of problem to
deal with here.
So, there are problems. But it seems to me that we have
to let it sink in to the people of Beirut that those they are
harboring are doing them great damage. And we have to develop
our techniques for getting back at them, too.
WOODRUFF: Do you really believe, sir, that that message
is getting through?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I don't know, but we're going to try
to get it through.
WOODRUFF: Because, I mean, it seems to me, from their
perspective right now, what they must be thinking is, "We
pulled up a big one on the United States."
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I don't think so. We have our
hostages back and we are proceeding to work on this problem.
WOODRUFF: But they're getting their prisoners back, as
well.
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SECRETARY SHULTZ: They stopped the flow of those
prisoners, the release of that flow, and it's starting up again.
WOODRUFF: Did the United States learn any other lessons
from this?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: I hope the American people,
generally, have learned a lot from it and that we have an
enhanced awareness of this problem, of the difficulties of
dealing with it; and yet, nevertheless, the right kind of
strategy for dealing with it; and that we will have more and more
support for doing things that are effective on this.
I have been speaking on this subject, myself, for about
a year and a half. And some of the things that I said a year ago
were greeted as very controversial and outlandish. And by this
time, all those statements are sort of in the mainstream of waht
people think. So there has been a change.
WOODRUFF: You mentioned the role that the -- you
alluded to the role that the media has played in all this, in
making celebrities of the people...
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Yes. I think it's bad.
WOODRUFF: It's bad.
Is there anything that can be done or should be done
about it, in your view?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, it may be that there's nothing
to be done. The networks and the news media compete to do these
things, and we have to manage it. I think it's really amazing
what the media are able to do. They're impressive. And to some
extent, they have gone places that we weren't able to go to, so
we learned something from it. On the other hand, they disclose
things, the disclosure of which hurt our efforts. And then
there's a sort of a maudlin quality to a lot of it, I think.
SECRETARY SHULTZ: But there's a lot of self-censorship
going on, I notice.
WOODRUFF: You said hurt your efforts. How did it hurt
SECRETARY SHULTZ: If U.S. movements or things that we
might be doing are highly publicized, then you tell the people
that you're trying to deal with, the hijackers, information that
we'd just as soon they not have. Or if there's a lot of talk
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about the possibility that it has an effect on their behavior.
I don't know what to do about it. It's a free press,
and I believe in a free press and I wouldn't suggest anything
else. but it is a problem in managing something like this.
WOODRUFF: Just one other thing. As a result of their
help in all this, is Syria now more a friend of the United States
in the Middle East?
SECRETARY SHULTZ: Well, we're very glad that President
Assad and Syria did what they did. And we hope that we can build
on that. But nevertheless -- and we hope that they will help us
get the seven that are held in that area out.
WOODRUFF: Secretary of State Shultz, we thank you for
being with us.
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