MACNEIL-LEHRER NEWSHOUR

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000200910007-1
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 5
• Document Creation Date: December 21, 2016
• Document Release Date: June 27, 2008
• Sequence Number: 7
• Publication Date: October 19, 1983
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-01070R000200910007-1
riauvLlL-Lr.i1LC~K NKWJtiUUK
19 October 1983
bACNEIL: In a moment we're going to hear both sides of the covert aid debate in the
Congress. First, we hear both sides. in the struggle in Nicaragua from a key member of
the Sandinista leadership and a leader. of the contras, or rebels., Last week, on
assignment for us, Charles Krause talked in hanagua with Humberto Ortega, Nicaraguan
defense minister and commander in chief, about-_. the miltiary situation. HUXBERTO
ORTEGA (Voice of Interpreter): What we see in the coming weeks is a worsening of
military factors and the real possibility of war with Honduras, to the extent that
Honduras is becoming more fully and directly involved in the aggression against
Nicaragua. It's no longer the counter-revolutionaries receiving help from Honduras
but rather the counter-r?evolu'tionaries'as part of U.S. strategy to use Honduras to
distract our. forces and create conditions allowing Bonduras to make overwhelming
attacks against our revolution, against our army.
RRAUSE: Then you're expecting war with Honduras? DRTEGA: Against 'Nicaragua.
KRAUSE: And the United States? ORTEGA: O# course and with the support of the United
States. There are American. soldiers in Honduras with full logistical and adviser
support, assurance of all kinds, of material for.agression. Now, whether the United
States is going to get directly involved in our war, that I can't predict. I'm not a
fortune-telling wizard who can say exactly what will happen. But I can affirm that
with the yankees and troops that are in Bonduras, if there is a conflict between
.Honduras and Nicaragua, arising from the activities of the Somozista
counter-revolutionaries, then the possibility of the U.S. getting involved in that
conflict is much greater. the real icenario I see for the coming weeks is serious.
It's deteriorating because efforts toward peace, efforts at understanding are not
preceding a pace with the sabotage, the build-up of the Honduran forces and the
counter-revoluionaries in Honduras and in Costa Rica.
KRAUSE: What's more likely, negotiations or war? ORTEGA: If the United States has a
number of points to make that they believe Nicaragua is supplying arms to El Salvador,
that Nicaragua has Cuban advisers or from elsewhere, etc., if there are a number of
things that they don't like about Nicaragua, there are also aspects of U.S. policy
that we don't like. And we think that there-cam and.should be analysis, talks,
discussions but in a framework of mutual respect, decent framework, a civilzied
framework, a framework without conditions, without abusing the strength of one over
the other, without threats, without holding. a gun to our head.
?tACNEIL: Later., back in Washington, Charle Krause talked with Adolfo Calero,
commander in chief of one of the -largest contra groups, the FDN, or Democratic Forces
of Nicaragua. Krause asked for his reading of the situation in Central America.
CALERO: Well, I would say the situation is real hot and, ah, it will continue to beat
up. And, ah, we will not cease in our efforts to establish democracy in Nicaragua, by
whatever means it.takes. At the beginning, right after the Somoza overthrow, we,
political parties, private enterprise, practically all Nicaraguans gave the
Sandinistas the opportunity to establish a Democratic government. In January.of this
year we told the Sandinistas that we were ready, ah, to put down our arms if they
would fulfill the' commitments that they made to the Organization of American States
for democracy, pluralism, elections, respect of human rights. And since none of those
commitments. have been fulfilled, ah, we have been obliged to take up arms against this
sea of troubles that Nicaraguans are going through.
Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-01070R000200910007-1
 Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
KRAUSE: Why should the Nicaraguan people, or for that matter, the American people
believe that your group, which has Somozista officers in, why should anyone believe
that you are democratic? CALERD: Well, to begin with,,. there' is. not proof to the
contrary. And I, in putting it positively, I think that the people who need FDN
through their lifetime have proved to be people who want democracy, who have worked
f
or democracy.
KRADS.: Has the Reagan administration gitien You assurances that they will :support you
,to that end? CALERD: We believe that there is a firm' commitment on the part of this
government and that the principal people in this government, like President Reagan
and, ah, Ambassador Kirkpatrick and Secretary Shultz, they have continually made the
statesmen, giving us, ah, let's say, hope.
KRAUSE. To what extent are 'CIA advisers helping you? 'GALER0: Well, CIA has no
people,. nor FBI people, for that matter, go-around...showing their identification. I
could say that I have met no one who has shown,;me.a CIA,ah, ah, identificati'on card.
KRAUSE: Well, then, what is all of the money from the United States going for?
CALERO: If the United States is giving us .any money, -which -is 'something I couldn't
prove in a courtroom. And if other. people and other., from other countries are also
giving us money, I mean, ah, that, .ah.., whatever we get" goes for the armament we have,
for the ammunition we have and, ah, and for the needs that an army would have.
LEHRER Now to the debate, in this country between two congressmen who will speak on
opposites sides tomorrow when the contra.aid issue goes to the house floor. They are
Peter\Kostmaver, Democrat of Pennsylvania, and Mark\Siliander. Republican of Nicbigan.
Both are members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman Kostmayer, you
want the ai?d cut off, is that correct? KOSThAYER: That's right.
LEHFtER: Why? KOSTriAYER: Well, I think there are a number of reasons. The first is
that .it's clearly illegal, against the law. In December of 1982, Congress passed the
Boland amendment, which was quite clear in prohibiting any expenditure of American
funasto assist in the destabilization or overthrowing of another government.
Second3y, I think it Tuns strongly contrary......
LEHRZR: Wait a minute. Let's, let's take that one, let's take that one first.
Congressman, Siljander, how do you argue the, what, what's your answer to the legality
argument? SILJANDER: Well, we have other commitments, the UN Charter, the OAS
agreement, the Rio Pact, the ?ionroe Doctrine, by which we stand by, commitments we've
made to our fellow Americans, plus the issue really is we're not out to overthrow the
Sandinistas in Nicaragua. That is a misnomer, a misunderstanding of the issue.
LHRER: All right. KOSThAYER: Well, I visited the contra camps and say 15, 16,
17-year-old kids heavily armed with machine guns. They are there to overthrow the
Nicaraguan government, not -to influence or to moderate policy. The Boland amendment
speaks not to these general principles and policies but specifically to Nicaragua.
And it says that the CIA should not be-expending, as it is now, millions of dollars to
assist in the destabilization or overthrowing a government. No....
LEHRER: What do you see the purpose of. the contras to be, Congressman Siljander?
SILJANDER: Well, there are two clear purposes. Number one,:certainly we're
supporting the contras who are demanding, ah; fulfillment of commitments made by the
Sandinistas. before the Organization of American States, free election, freedom of
&on
. Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
 Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion and labor unions, none of which, none -of
which have..been, ah, follwed through by the Sandinista government. Secondly, we are
there to stop the export of arms and revolution, which'is clearly happening by the
Sandinista, especially, specifically into El Salvador. And the next target, as we
heard by Ortega himself, likely will. be Honduras.
LEHRER: What's wrong with that, Congressman? KOSTMAYER: Well, let me say two
things. First of all, the bill, which-we'll consider tomorrow which -cuts off covert
funding for the contras provides $50 million for -armsinterdiction. So, we're not
suggesting the United States....
LEHRER: You means arms interdiction, arms going from Nicaragua to 1:1 Salvador?
ROSTh YER: Nicaragua to. El Salvador, absolutely. We recognize that that's occurring
to some extent.. No one's quite sure how much. We'.re not talking about some kind of
unilateral irresponsible withdrawal of -American -involvement in Central America. We
authorized the expenditure of $50 million in 1984,t-o assist friendly nations in
stopping the flow of weapons from Nicaragua to El Salvador. Secondly, the
administration's concern -with free labor unions,-elections, democratic political
principles -doesn't apply in Chile_ It doesn't apply in Argentina or in 'South Africa.
The Reagan administration's. concern with these issues is, is really quite new.
LEHRER: Is that true, Congressman? SILJANDER: It iss,-it's nothing new. What we're
attempting to do is force commitments, freedom, freedom of basic human rights and
self-determination. I an more than willing to cut off all covert aid. Now my, my
fellow colleague is willing to contribute overt aid, which implies premise of
potential involvement of overt war. We're talking about assisting freedom fighters,
in my opinion fighting for 'their owr freedom. I wanted to cut it off, if the
Sandinistas are willing to call for internationally supervised elections, before s.o
all sides may campaign freely, during so there's not interference and after so
whomever wins will take power. And if they win, the left wins, we should then as a
government agree to pull out all assistance, arms, any 'type.
LEhRER: Let 'em have it, just let 'em have it? SILJANDER: Let 'em have it. If the
people really want the harxists backed by 7000 Cuban troops, 1000 Soviet bloc advisers
and 800 to 1000 (inaudible) Libyans that are using the Nicaragua as their base for
exporting revolution. If they want that, let them have it.
LEHRER: To the vote tomorrow, specifically, Congressman Kostmayer, you heard what the
contra leader told Charles Krause. Be says that he feels he has a commitment from the
United States government, from President Reagan, Secretary Shultz, Ambassador
Kirkpatrick for, for the U.S. support. If you all do vote to cut this support off,
what.have you done, what have you done to those folks? KOSThkYER: I think Congress
made its commitment very clear in December, 1982, when it adoped the Boland amendment.
An contras; ah, should, should be aware of that. The question is very simply:_..
LEHRER: You don't see this as undercutting the president? KOSTMAYER: I think it
undercuts a bad policy, the policy which is to overthrow governments with whom we have
some very legitimate disagreements. And. I'm certainly not an admirer of the
Sandinistas. The question is fundamental. Should the United States be in the
business of overthrowing governments whose policies we do not agree with?
LEHRER-: What do you think would be the impact of a negative vote tomorrow in the
Bouse? SILJANDER:' Well, the impact of a negative vote certainly will send ripples
that we have not made a firm commmitment and sticking to our UN charter commitments .or
Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
 Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
Rio Pact commitments, our'OAS commitments, the Organization of American States.- And
let me repeat, the, the contention made that we're there to overthrow the Nicaraguan
government is erroneous. It has been stated time and time again by them by the
secretary 'of state and the president of the United States our policy it not.to
overthrow the government. KOSTMAYER: I think the impact..... SILJANDER; But the two
points than I made earlier.... KOSTMAYER: The impact will be very clear. The impact
will be simply that we don't accept a military. solution; we believe in a political
solution. That's what the impact of this will be.
LEHRER: Let me, let me ask you both this question. Both the, both gentlemen we just
h
d
f
.*-
ear
;
rom the ground bthid d th
ono sesownere say things are getting hot,
there's gonna be war. Which, how would the vote up or down impact on that situation,
C
ongressman Siljander? SILJANDER:Wllb
=e, numer-one, the interdiction of .arms has
proven'to be successful. -We've caught Libyan vessels. ._We've found fishing villas
assistant ambassador in the Sandinista regime... KOSTMAYER: And we're not opposed to
th
' i
e
nterdiction of arias SILJANDER WlL
.:e, are you gonna answer my question or I....
KOSTMAYER: We provide 50, 50 million. SILJANDER: ...Or may I answer my own
question? KOSTMAYER: Sure. SILJANDER: Thank you. I talked to an assistant
ambassador formerly to Honduras who had involvement with the Cubans and Soviets, and
he says clearly that the involvement of the contras, as they .accelerate their
involvement, the attention goes to stabilizing the bastion of revolution, Nicaragua.
The Cubans make decisions. They firmly are committed to forgetting El Salvador, for
stop (sic) *the arms shipment and let's worry about keeping Nicaragua stable, stable.
So it will have a very negative impact.
LEHRER: Do you, Congressman Kostmayer, agree with Ortega's scenario that the more the
U.S. supports the contras the more likely there's gonna be a war with Honduras?
KOSTMAYER: Well, I wonder, I think we have to ask ourselves what happens when the
contras cross from Honduras where they're based into Nicaragua for these raids in
which they are engaging and the Nicaraguan army pursues them into Honduras. I think
the possibility of a wider war is, is a very realistic possibility. I think we're
running that risk.
LEHRER: If, if that should happen, Congress Siljander, should the United States get
involved? SILJANDER: United States should not get involved. The president said
there will not be troops involved in combat, combat in Central America. And...
LEARER: No matter what*happens? FOSTMAYER: But there are 20,000 American troops in
Central America now on the Caribbean and Pacific coasts of Nicaragua, and another 8 to
10,000 troops based in... We're.only asking for trouble. It's awfully easy to send
those American soldiers in. It's mighty tough to get them out. SILJANDER: Here,
here's what we've asked for. Every year or two we've had routine military maneuvers
in Honduras. 'This- is nothing new. The difference.is, certainly the timing is
appropriate, and a show of force, within 48 hours of our show of force and the
acceleration of contras' efforts in Nicaragua, all of a sudden the Sandinistas for the
first time in months come out with a six-point peace plan. Proof is positive. We are
out for .a non-militaristic solution, and the only way to do that, and is clearly to
force- the Sandinistas into sitting down -at the negotiating table, talking about
elect 'ions., talking about freedom of self-determination. KOSTMAYER: (simultaneously
with Lehrer) I think the...
QW7VVVZD
Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
11
 Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1
LEHRER: The toughest question... KOSTMAYER: I think the opposite has happened
there. They've turned more and more to the Soviet Union and to Cuba, I think, as a
result of all this.
LEHRER: Toughest cuestion of all, Congressmen. Bow's the vote going to go tomorrow?
KOSTMAYER: It,'s going to be very close. We had a meeting with the leadership this
afternoon and it's going to be terribly close. I can't predict it, although.I think
we-have a chance of winning it by a very narrow margin. SIL.ANDER: I think that it's
likely the Congress will pass theBoland-Zablocki language. It's unfortunate...
LEHRER: Meaning cutting off the -aid? SILIANDER: Yes,-I think they will. It will
not go through the Senate, so I encourage those freedom fighters in Nicaragua that
while the Congress may not keep up with their commitments
-at l
a
t
,
e
s
on the mouse side,
I hope the Senate will maintain commitments that we've made to the freedom fighters to
force'
orce therr th
eir opponents into the-negotiating table. Not to war, but to the
negotiating table.
-LEHRER: Gentlemen, thank you both very much./
Approved For Release 2008/06/27: CIA-RDP88-0107OR000200910007-1