FULL TEXT: NICARAGUA

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000100630004-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 12
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 13, 2007
• Sequence Number: 4
• Publication Date: March 29, 1983
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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RADIO TV REPORTS, INC.
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MacNeil/Lehrer Report
STATION
WETA-TV
PBS Network
March 29,
Full Text:
1983 7:30 PM CITY
Nicaragua
Washington, DC
ROBERT MacNEIL: The fighting in Nicaragua -- is it
counter-revolution? Civil war? Or a clandestine plot by the
United States?
[Up theme music].
Good evening.
The United Nations Security Council held its fifth day
of debate on the fighting in Nicaragua today, leaving no one
much wiser about what's really going on. Nicaragua's govern-
ment continued to charge that the United States is backing the
rebel attacks launched from bases in neighboring Honduras.
Honduras denies that, but says Nicaragua is using Honduran
territory to smuggle arms to rebels in El Salvador.
The Nicaraguans claim that the Reagan Administration
is plotting to destabilize and overthrow there left-wing
Sandinista government. U.S. spokesmen have not commented
directly on this, but say the Nicaraguans are trying to
cover-up the unpopularity of their own regime. .
Behind all this welter of complicated charges, there
is fighting between Nicaragaa's 22,000-man army and the rebel
force estimated to number anywhere from 1,500 to 5,000 strong.
And, in the last week, that fighting has intensified, prompting
Nicaragua to appeal to the Security Council.
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Tonight, the fighting in Nicaragua and what is the
U.S. role.
JIM LEHRER: Robin, there was a brief time when it
appeared the United States and Nicaragua's new revolutionary
government might be able to get along. That was four years
ago, right after the success of the Sandinista-led rebellion
against the Samoza family regime that had ruled Nicaragua for
nearly 50 years.
Many of the Sandinista leaders were Marxists and
strongly anti-America. Most of their rhetorical and practical
support in their plight had come from Cuba. But the U.S.,
under the Carter Administration, had backed off its years of
solid support for the Samozas and, toward the end, maintained
an almost neutral position.
There was much talk, officially and unofficially, that
a working relationship could emerge. The U.S. followed that
prompt with a small amount of economic aid for the new govern-
ment.
But, two years later, in the early months of the
Reagan Administration, it came apart. The aid was cancelled as
then-Secretary of State Haig and other Administration officials
accused Nicaragua of arming left-wing guerrillas in El Salva-
dor. There have been charges and counter-charges and --at --
and an increasing rate of heat ever since, the most recent
being those about the current fighting in Nicaragua, who's
doing it, and who's supporting it.
This afternoon at the United Nations Security Council,
Nicaragua's case was laid out by the Deputy Foreign Minister,
Victor Hugo Tinoco.
VICTOR HUGO TINOCO: Mr. President, from the informa-
tion that has been offered during the meetings of the Council,
from the various attacks by Honduran military units in Nicara-
guan territory which have taken place over the past week, and
from the information that has been reported in the internation-
al mass media, it can be concluded that the danger of the
internationalization of the conflict along the Honduran-Nica-
raguan border continues. And for this reason, it is necessary
that the Council remain alert to the development of events.
Mr. President, as all who have participated in these
meetings know, the decision of the American Administration to
continue with its plans and aggressive actions remain un-
changed, and they are aimed at the overthrow of the revolution-
ary government of Nicaragua.
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It is clear to all present that the American Admini-
stration at all levels, from President Reagan to Secretary of
State Schultz, and even Madame Kirkpatrick, Representative for
the United States in the Security council, has denied, rejected
the concrete acquisations -- accusations levelled by the
delegation of Nicaragua, namely, that they are advising and
directing the strategy and the details of the activities of the
Somzas revolutionary bands who have infiltrated into Nicaraguan
territory.
Secondly, that they have officially approved funds in
the amount of at least $19.9 million by the American Admini-
stration to finance and promote the activities of these
counter-revolutionary bands, the purpose of which is to
overthrow the revolutionary government of Nicaragua.
Thirdly, that there exists counter-revolutionary
Somozas training camps of those who wish to overcome the
revolutionary government of Nicaragua in the United States of
America.
Mr. President, today's "New York Times," in an article
entitled, in English, "U.S. Not Denying Sandinista Charges."
[Brief interruption by interpreter].
"This quotes the spokesman in the White House, Alan
Romberg, saying . . . ."
[Interruption by interpreter].
"But there's a little psychological warfare in this
silence by the United States when these accusations are leveled
out."
Mr. President, this is not psychological warfare.
This is a real war promoted by the United States against
Nicaragua. The automatic weapons, the C-4 explosives, the
grenade launchers made in the United States that [name unintel-
ligible] Kinsher of the "New York Times" reported on in
yesterday's article, are all real. And he reported on a visit
of his to a revolutionary -- counter-revolutionary camp in
Honduran territory.
Mr. President, the widows in Nicaragua today, the
wounded children, and the decapitated peasants, as a result of
aggression promoted by the United States, are not psychological
warfare. What could be considered as having a psychological
effect but an extremely dangerous one would be that the
government of the United States, with its silence and its scorn
with which it has responded to accusations that it is destabil-
izing Nicaragua, accusations leveled at it by the United
States, has gotten the international community to feel
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that perhaps this attitude toward obvious facts is natural and
normal. It is dangerous because further escalation of this
--these activities could also be claimed to be normal in
keeping with the cannons of silence, but in keeping with the
principles of speedy reactions by the present American Admini-
stration.
It's dangerous to allow scorn for international public
opinion to become a norm of daily conduct for a country,
especially in the case of a power like the United States.
MacNEIL: During the debate, the United States
position has been put by the United Natiol Ambassador, Jeane
Kirkpatrick, who is with us this evening.
Madame Ambassador, why has the United States, and you
as its spokesperson -- one of the spokesmen included -- not
replied quickly and explicitly to that charge by the Nicara-
guans?
AMBASSADOR JEANE KIRKPATRICK: Well, we -- we replied
in various ways, actually. We said, certainly, that the United
States was not engaged in any sort of invasion of Nicaragua,
which they have repeatedly charged.
We have said that is very clear is that Nicaragua,
which has a -- an increasingly and appallingly repressive
government, today finds itself with a very great deal of
internal opposition. Today, there are Nicaraguans fighting
Nicaraguans inside Nicaragua.
We've also said that Nicaragua has been for more than
two years regularly supporting with arms and training and
commander-controlled functions, actually, a guerrilla war in El
Salvado against El Salvador, and to a less extent in Honduras
and with greater threats increasingly to Costa Rica and
Guatemala.
We have said that -- that Nicaragua can hardly be
expected to enjoy immunity from opposition in its own society
when it is in fact promoting opposition in other societies, and
we have finally proposed that what would be appropriate in this
situation is a regional solution.
MacNEIL: We'll come back to the regional solutions
and suggestions for a conference in a moment.
Does the United States deny the Nicaraguan charge that
it is assisting what they call "these counter-revolutionary
fighters" to overthrow the Sandinista government?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: The Nicaraguan government has
made a number of charges against us. Last year -- just exactly
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a year ago, they came to the United Nations saying that they
were -- we were about to engage in a massive invasion. This
year, they've also suggested we were engaging in an invasion.
We certainly deny we're engaging in an invasion, and we haven't
been invading anybody.
They suggested also that we were helping with arms, I
think, the internal Nicaraguan opposition to the government of
Nicaragua, and we have declined to respond to that specifical-
ly.
MacNEIL: Why? Why? Why decline to respond?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: We -- we've decline to
respond to that -- actually, I hate not responding to questions
myself -- but it is a very firm U.S. government policy, which
is not only the policy of this Administration, but of all
previous administrations, neither to affirm nor deny any
question concerning any kind of covert or intelligence activi-
ties of the U.S. government.
MacNEIL: Does that not, as the "New York Times"
suggests today -- the "New York Times" suggests today, lend
credence to the charge that, in fact, such covert operations
are going on?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: Well, I don't know. You
know, -- I mean, I think probably -- as I said, it's a standard
policy neither to affirm nor to deny, ever, such charges. I
think people have to decide for themselves and then they would
have to decide for themselves what they would think in any case
about the U.S. providing arms to internal Nicaraguan insurgents
at a time when there is massive provision of arms by the Soviet
bloc in Cuba and Nicaragua to Salvadoran, and Guatemalan, and
Honduran, and Costa Rican insurgents.
MacNEIL: Is it also, as the "New York Times" suggests
in one of its reports today, part of deliberate Reagan Admini-
stration policy to wage psychological warfare by not saying
whether or not it is doing this so as to leave the Nicaraguan
government in some doubt about what it's doing and what it
isn't?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: Well, if we don't want to say
whether or not we're doing it, then, obviously, I'm not going
to say what it would mean if we're not going to say whether or
not we're doing it.
I might say a word about Reagan Administration policy
here. I suppose at the beginning of my -- of your colleague's
characterization of the decision to stop aid to Nicaragua
--actually, in the first 18 months, the United States gave more
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economic aid than any other country to Nicaragua, to the
Sandinista government. And it was under the Carter Administra-
tion, in December of the Carter Administration, that the
decision was made that Nicaragua did not meet the qualifica-
tions established by the Congress to continue aid, and that
decision was made then and not by the Reagan Administration.
I'd like to make that clear just to be clear that this
is not just a kind of Reagan policy.
MacNEIL: Right.
Again going back to the "New York Times" today,
another report from the "Times" on the U.N. debate says that
you personally have been stunned by the air of disbelief among
many of the countries taking part in the debate, including many
who are often included as those friendly to or voting with the
United States. In other words, to put it in shorthand, that
they don't believe the arguments you've been making. What is
your response to that?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: Well, I think it's mistaken,
and I think the story, quite frankly, was written after the
first day's debate and does not reflect what happened in the
subsequent days of debate.
When I -- I think, in fact, that it's very clear that
it was Nicaragua who found that -- most of its case was met
with incredulity, and it -- the proof has been, finally, I
think, that fighting in -- it was clear to everyone that more
countries in the United Nations accepted the notion -- or at
least as they participated in the debate -- accepted the notion
of a regional approach to these regional problems, and they
rejected Nicaragua's contention that they had simply a bilater-
al problem with Honduras or a bilateral problem with the United
States.
MacNEIL: The United States is willing to go along
with the suggestions by countries like Peru, and late today by
Britain, that there should be a conference or a meeting of a
number of countries in Latin -- in Central America?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: You know, when I was in
Central America about two weeks ago -- or four weeks ago -- the
biggest effort was -- that is, Panama, Venezuela, and Costa
Rica and Honduras, and El Salvador -- was to try to organize a
conference that would have included all the Central American
states. That's the five basic Central American states,
including Nicaragua, plus the five interested -- the general
democracies. That would be Panama, Venezuela, Colombia,
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Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. That's called the five
--five-on-five conference, and it does not include the United
States. Some people felt it ought to be an all-Latin confer-
ence, and we had no place in it. And, after consideration of
our government, we decided sure, that's fine. If they want to
try to deal with it as regional level, we will interpose no
obstacles whatsoever.
MacNEIL: Thank you.
Jim?
LEHRER: First of all, Madame Ambassador, I stand
corrected on the aid question.
Next, the views of a key U.S. congressman who has been
critical of the Reagan Administration policy toward Nicaragua.
He's Congressman Michael Barnes, Democrat of Maryland, Chairman
of the House Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere Affairs.
He introduced legislation last year that would
prohibit U.S. support for covert or paramilitary actions
against Nicaragua.
And, Congressman, you said last week that what the
U.S. is involved in now in Nicaragua was a 1980s version of the
Bay of Pigs. Do you believe that?
CONGRESSMAN MICHAEL BARNES: Well, if any of the
reportrs are believable, that's clearly what's involved here.
What you've got is apparently the United States -- I say
apparently because it won't be confirmed or denied by Ambassa-
dor Kirkpatrick or anybody else in the Administration, but what
it appears to be is the United States funding and supplying
arms to a group of exiles who are operating out of foreign
territory -- in this instance Honduras -- in an effort to
either destabilize or overthrow the government of their own
country, Nicaragua.
LEHRER: From your point of view, what's wrong with
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Well, there are a number of
things wrong with it. There's the fundamental question of
whether the United States ought to be engaged in overthrowing
governments of other countries -- as a matter of policy whether
we ought to. There's a question of whether or not it's legal.
Domestic law is clear. If not, the Congress passed a law last
year -- passed the House unanimously -- saying we shouldn't be
doing this. It's against international law. It's against the
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Organization of American States' charter which the United
States is not only a signatory to, but we wrote, which speci-
fically prohibits the kind of actions that are taking place at
this time.
There are a whole lot of reasons why I think many in
the Congress are raising very serious questions about whether
the United States engaged in it. Apparently we're engaged in
it, and if we are are we doing the right thing.
LEHRER: You heard what the Ambassador just said, that
if you believe that the -- that Nicaragua is arming the leftist
guerrillas in El Salvador, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
then -- then this --- she said it's up to people, then, to
decide whether or not this kind of action, if it is in fact
going on, is justified by the United states.
You think there's any justification for this?
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Well the Congress doesn't think
so, and we passed a law prohibiting the use of United States
funds for this purpose, and it was passed unanimously, as I
indicated. It was not a matter of dispute in the Congress. It
was clear the attitude of the American people on this issue.
Beyond that, I think, you know, the soldier will man
the fence, which is essentially what the Administration is
using. "Well, if we are doing it, it's only because they're
doing it in El Salvador" is not really a very valid justifica-
tion for a policy of this nature.
Ambassador Kirkpatrick very correctly just said -- I
have enormous respect for her talents and abilities. She --she
just very correctly said that the countries in the region --
when they talked about trying to find regional political
solutions to the problem -- to the problems in the area. I
don't want the United States involved. They would prefer to
work Latin with Latin rather than have the United States
invovled.
And here what we are apparently doing is through the
CIA injecting the United States very directly with a military
effort in the region -- paramilitary to -- to solve what we
perceive to be a problem that threatens U.S. security inter-
ests.
It is probably the worst way from the Latins' perspec-
tive for the United States to inject ourselves in the region.
It raises all the specters of Chile, of Guatemala, of the Bay
of Pigs, of the many times the United States has sent the
Marines to Nicaragua in the past. A couple years ago, I
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met with some Nicaraguans, and they said, "You're going to
invade." And I said, "That's ridiculous. The United States is
not going to invade Nicaragua."
Well, they said, "You've done it nine times before."
You know, they have a memory of the U.S. role in Latin America.
We sometimes are lacking the historical perspective, and I
think this policy is an indication of that.
LEHRER: You've several times now, understandably,
based on what the government has said officially, including
Ambassador Kirkpatrick, you use the word "apparently," but you
then go on -- you really believe the United States is, in fact,
funding and directing that operation on the Honduran border,
correct?
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Somebody's funding it. Five
hundred or more guerrillas were pars-dropped into Nicaragua
last week in a rather significant military operation. They got
their helicopters from somewhere. They're getting all these
weapons from somewhere.
The United States is not denying the assertions in all
the U.S. media that it comes from the United States. I have
specifically not requested an intelligence briefing because
once you get one and they tell you what's happening, then you
can't talk about it.
I would prefer to be able to raise the kinds of
questions that my colleagues expect me to raise as Chairman of
the Subcommittee about this kind of policy without being
constrained by knowing, in fact, whether it's true. All I know
is what I've read in the papers about this. All of the press
says the U.S. is doing it. Everybody in the region certainly
thinks we're doing it, and the leadership of many of the
countries in the region have urged me to do what I can to see
whether it's possible to bring about a more rational policy on
the part of the United states.
LEHRER: And do you believe the -- the next part of
this charge from Nicaragua that the purpose of this operation
is to overthrow the government, the Sandinista government in
Nicaragua?
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Well, clearly, that's what the --
that's what the guerrillas who are fighting the Sandinistas say
they want. I mean, they make no secret about what their intent
is. They want to overthrow the Sandinistas, and there --
there's a dispute among those guerrilla factions as to what
they'd like to replace them with. Some of them are very
genuine democrats. Others are more inclined to setup some kind
of right-wing government reminiscent of the Samoza regime.
There's a dispute there.
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Let me just comment on one point that Ambassador
Kirkpatrick made, and that was she indicated that it was the
policy of the United States never to comment on assertions of
this kind.
Well, just this week the government of Grenada has
said that the United states is planning to -- to invade Grenada
or to support people who want to overthrow the government of
Grenada, and the State Department has immediately denounced
that as absurd, and suggested the United States would never do
such a thing.
And yet we have comparable accusations not only from
the Nicaraguans, but from CBS, NBC, thee "New York Times," the
"Washington Post," the "Christian Science Monitor," the "Miami
Herald," and the Administration says, "Well, we would never
comment on such a thing."
LEHRER: Thank you.
Robin?
MacNEIL: How about that, Madame Ambassador?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: Ridiculous.
MacNEIL: What is ridiculous?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: All of this is ridiculous.
You know, first of all, it's also pretty serious, actually.
If I understood my Congressman Mike Barnes, he, first
of all, is accusing our government of breaking the law, and
that's a very serious charge, and it is one which we certainly
will comment on. It's not so.
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: Assure him absolutely that
the law is not being broken. Absolutely.
And, then, I think it's very serious for him to say
so, quite frankly.
MacNEIL: Congressman, do you want to comment on that?
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Well, I'm delighted to hear that.
If that's the case, then Dr. Kirkpatrick is saying that the
allegations of the Nicaraguans and all the allegations that
have appeared in the press are not correct, that we are not
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in fact attempting indirectly and covertly to destabilize or
overthrow the government of another country in the hemisphere.
MacNEIL: Is that what you're saying?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: I . . . .
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: If that's what she's saying. . .
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: I think what I am saying -- I
think -- Mike, you're a lawyer, aren't you?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: That's what I thought. Well,
then, we can use language . . . .
[Confusion of voices].
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: I'm a political scientist.
Never mind. And I think we can both use language carefully.
I think there is a resolution, a law, which forbids
the United States to attempt to overthrow the government of
Nicaragua. I think that's the law.
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Direct -- directly or indirectly?
AMBASSADOR KIRKPATRICK: I would certainly say that
the United State is not breaking the law. That's very simple.
Second, another very serious mistake I think was --was
Mike's assertion about, what Latins want. What Latin govern-
ments in the region want is peace, and they want it very badly,
and they want the governments in the region to cease destabil-
izing each other, and they want an opportunity to develop
democracy and -- and engage in economic development, which they
were making some progress in some time ago.
They're also confronted with massive shipments of arms
from the Soviet bloc by way of Cuba and Nicaragua. They also
want help, and they want help very badly. Even someone like
Archbishop Revera Damas(?) in El Salvador wants military
assistance from the United States, and says so very clearly.
Third, the United States is not the least bit reluc-
tant -- either this government or any previous one -- to say
that we don't intend to invade anybody. We have no intentions
of invading anybody. We said that -- I said it in the Security
Council this week. I said it a year ago. We said that about
Grenada. Of course we don't intend to invade Grenada.
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MacNEIL: Congressman, you want to comment? We have
less than a minute.
CONGRESSMAN BARNES: Well, with respect to what the
people in the region are saying, let me say what one leader
from the region said to me just very recently.
"Has the United States thought through the implica-
tions of its policy?"
The danger of a war right now between Honduras and
Nicaragua are greater than they've been in years. It's a very
intense situation. It wouldn't be surprising to anybody if the
Nicaraguans responded to the threats that's been presented to
them by moving into Honduras to try to take out the bases that
have been reported, for example, in today's "New York Times"
and yesterday's papers. Then what happens? Does Honduras
engage in a major war? Do they -- do we then count on the
restraint of the Soviets and the Cubans, and the Nicaragu-
ans...?
[Confusion of voices].
MacNEIL: Mr. Congressman, we have to leave that as a
question hanging for tonight, and probably we'll be coming back
to this story.
I'd like to thank you for joining us. Dr. Kirkpat-
rick, thank you.
Good night, Jim.
That's all for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night.
I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.
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