INTERVIEW WITH JOHN LOFTUS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000100550004-1
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 13
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 13, 2007
• Sequence Number: 4
• Publication Date: January 29, 1983
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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RADIO N REPORTS, ~N~.
4701 WILLARD AVENUE, CHEVY CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 656-4068
Fort PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGrtAnn On the Agenda
STATION WNUR Radio
DATE January 29, 1983 9:05 A.M. C~rY Brookline, Ma.
JENNIFER JORDAN: Today On the Agenda, we have John
Loftus, author of "The Belarus Secret," a newly-released book
which looks painstakingly into the past of Nazi war criminals
from the Byelorussian region of the USSR who came to the United
States of America with the sanction and protection of the State
Department. Mr. Loftus is here to take us through that history
On the Agenda.
JORDAN: Let's start with definitions. Where and what
is Byelorussia?
JOHN LOFTUS: It's a little-known country of the Eastern
provinces of Poland and the Western provinces of the old Russian
Empire. And it's officially an independent nation with a seat
in the U.N., but it's really little more than a Soviet puppet
state. All of its foreign policy is conducted by Moscow.
JORDAN: Within the citizens of Byelorussia, and
something with the Nazi takeover, where were they and how did
they fit in? Were they like all of the Russian peasantry or
all of the Russian citizenship?
LOFTUS: They were a little different. Byelorussia was
one of the most conquered nations on earth. It lay across the
principal invasion routes for anyone traveling from Europe to
Moscow. Everyone from Napoleon to the Crusaders marched through
their borders. And as a result, they took a very laissez-faire
attitude towards occupiers: "They'll be here for a while; then
someone else will come in." So they were pretty much used to the
idea of someone taking part of the homeland.
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The 8yelorussians are also unique in another way. In
the 13th Century it was the border area where mast of the Jews
fleeing Western Europe were dumped. It was called the
settlements of the failed, one of the most densely populated
Jewish areas in the world.
The Jews that arrived in Byelorussia brought with them a
great many skills from Western Europe. And so they really took
over the shops and the trade. It developed a great deal of
hostility between the Orthodox Byelorussian peasants and the
predominantly urban Jewish population. Some towns in Byelorussia
were 90 percent Jewish.
Over the years, the anti-Semitism grew and continued to
grow. And so by the time that World War II came around, most of
the population were quite eager to see hard times fall upon their
Jewish neighbors.
In the beginning, when the Nazis and their collaborators
moved the Jews into the ghetto, that meant that all their homes
and businesses were available to the Christian population. It
was a gigantic windfall. When the Jews tried to escape from the
ghetto, the peasants were given a kilo of sugar for every Jew
they captured.
And according to the SS polls of the population, 80
percent of the Byelorussian population sided with the Germans
during World War II and not with the Soviet Union.
So the -- the old thing: 1t takes a hundred people to
kill a Jew, 99 to shrug their shoulders and one to pull the
trigger. And I think that was probably true of Byelorussia.
JORDAN: But you said recently that the population was
strongly Jewish. Now, I'm sure this is an age-old question that
will go down in the history books. But why did they put up with
it, if they were stronger in number and stronger in working for
in -- stronger in industry and stronger in the creative and
productive forces?
LOFTUS: Because they were still only ten percent of the
total national population. And because they were so concentrated
in the urban areas, they had no contacts, no relationship with
the peasants, who had primarily an agricultural economy. And
some of the Byelorussian Jews would collect taxes for the
absentee Polish landlords. So the only contact the peasants
would have with them was with the tax collector. And
anti-Semitism became a popular cause long before Hitler's armies
invaded Byelorussia.
JORDAN: All right. So then we see the Nazi army moving
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into Byelorussia, and the Byelorussian Christianity, shall we
say, taking sides. And that's the side of the Nazis.
Where and when did we start seeing the real pogrom start
with Byelorussia and the -- well, the holocaust of Byelorussia,
as recounted in your book?
LOFTUS: It started quite early. Even before the
invasion, the Nazis had recruited teams of Byelorussian
intelligentsia to go in with the SS and assist them with the
occupation and control of the homeland.
When these teams arrived, they were installed as mayors
and police chiefs, and they secretly drew up lists of their
neighbors to be executed by the SS. Anyone who was a potential
opponent of Nazi rule: Polish intelligentsia, Catholic clergy,
Jewish intelligentsia. So the few pogroms the first few months
of the occupation were limited to those groups who might organize
resistance. Then the wholesale killing started.
Eichman asked that an experiment be carried out in
Byelorussia.
JORDAN: Explain who Eichman is.
LOFTUS: Adolf Eichman was in charge of the final
solution for the Third Reich. He was the that was to devise the
plan for getting rid of Europe's unwanted Jewish population. He
thought of deportation and sending them to Palestine. But
eventually he hit upon the idea of simply sending them out to the
Byelorussian pale, where they could be worked to death or starved
to death, and no one would care.
Well, in October 1941, Stanislas Stankevich, who had
been appointed by the SS as mayor of this little town of Borasal
(?), was given orders to carry out the first experiment in mass
murder. He was told by the SS to have his police force murder
every Jewish man, woman and child in his county. His police
shuttled the Jewish population out in trucks to large pits that
had been dug on the road leading out to the airport. The Jews
were placed in layers, lay down in the pits, and then they were
shot through with machine guns so they could save ammunition by
shooting through two rows of bodies at once. A layer of dirt was
shoveled over them, and the next layer of Jews were made to climb
down to the graves.
The worst part of the atrocities weren't discovered
until after the war, when Western doctors and Soviet physicians
were doing autopsies in the graves. They could find no bullet
wounds on the infants. Apparently, they figured that the
children were too small to climb out of the graves, and they
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were simply buried alive.
Between 6500 and 7000 Jews were executed in Borasal in a
single day.
The atrocities so revolted some German intelligence
officers who witnessed it that they later turned up at the
Nuremberg war crimes prosecution as witnesses for the
prosecution. Stanislas Stankevich was denounced at Nuremberg,
placed on their wanted list. He denounced in the United Nations.
He was even mentioned before Congress as an example of the sort
of person who should never be allowed into America. At the very
time in 1948 that our congressmen were holding Stakevich up as a
black example, American intelligence had put him in charge of a
refugee camp in West Germany and put him on the American payroll.
Despite the fact that he was rejected six times for a
visa as a war criminal, as a communist collaborator, as a Nazi
collaborator, he was brought to this country and given a good job
with Radio Liberty, and he died here a citizen of the United
States just before we could bring him to trial.
JORDAN: Your book, "The Belarus Secret," deals with
these Nazi war criminals and the Byelorussian Nazi war criminals
coming in and living rather a nice life in New Jersey,
specifically. All I can say is, how and why? Where does this
begin, that our government started sanctioning these people and
bringing them in and allowing them -- and not only allowing them,
giving them a free ticket?
LOFTUS: Well, it wasn't our government. Both President
Truman and Roosevelt had specifically prohibited bringing in Nazi
collaborators and war criminals. There was a minority group in
the State Department that thought that Dewey would get elected
President in '48, and they took things on their own. They were
warning war criminals to go into hiding so they couldn't be
subject to extradition to the Soviets. And these people
sincerely believed that the Soviet Union was going to invade West
Germany in 1948. And so they were desperate for any form of
intelligence behind the Iron Curtain.
Well, the Byelorussian collaborators promptly said that
they had a great deal of experience in spying behind the Iron
Curtain, since they'd done it for the SS; and they were more than
willing to continue doing it for the British. And the British
eventually turned these groups over to the Americans.
JORDAN: Are the Americans, in doing this, or the State
Department, in allowing them to come in, in effect turning its
back a second time by sanctioning the criminals of these crimes?
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LOFTUS: Yeah. I think a lot of people during the Cold
War felt that, "Well, World War II is over. The Nazis are
defeated. Nothing we can do will bring the Jews back. So let's
use whatever we can to fight the real enemy, the communists."
Unfortunately, they broke all the rules of the
intelligence profession. You see, Congress had passed a law
saying if you want to bring in people with loathsome backgrounds
who are ineligible for American citizenship, you can do it under
a special law, provided the Attorney General and the head of the
CIA agrees.
Well, the State Department didn't want the CIA to know
what they were doing. And so they smuggled these people in
without background checks. If they had done the background
checks, if they had let CIA do the research, they would have
discovered that these people, many of them, were working on both
sides of the fence. They had been spying for the Communists
before, during and after the war.
The Soviet Union was delighted to have the Americans and
British recruit these war criminals because they were the one
group of people that Soviet military intelligence had penetrated
during World War II. This was the center of the Soviet partisan
warfare. They had spies at every level of the collaborators. So
when we brought the collaborators here, we brought the Soviet
agents among them as well.
JORDAN: Can we expect to defend freedom, which is
evidently why we bring these people in and have them work in an
anti-Communist, anti-Soviet nature -- but can we expect to defend
the freedom of our country and other countries by defending
the rights of these blatant killers?
LOFTUS: Well, intelligence is a very, very tough
profession. And I think that, as with the German rocket
scientists, sometimes you have to make hard decisions, that no
matter how loathsome a person is, that maybe his interest to the
national security outweighs that. Now, those are really tough
decisions to make.
LOFTUS: Well, when it goes by the book, Congress is
involved in it, the President is involved in it, the heads of the
intelligence services. And these are pretty reasonable people
who feel the same revulsion that you and I do towards them. So
when they finally approve to bring someone in under the lawful
program, it's usually because they have a very, very good reason.
That's not what I'm talking about here. What happened
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in this case was that it was illegal immigration that the
official channels of government knew nothing about. And because
it was illegal, it had to be covered up. The CIA could not be
let in on what was happening. And that caused numerous
disasters.
During the 1950s, when the CIA took over, at least in
name, the State Department operations, they were supposed to be
running parachute drops behind the Iron Curtain. The CIA didn't
know that the agents they were using were people that had been
identified five and ten years previously as Communist agents. We
lost virtually our entire intelligence network behind the Iron
Curtain as a result of these penetrations.
The CIA finally forced the OPC unit to drop using the
emigre groups. They were an unmitigated disaster.
For 30 years the CIA has been blamed for these covert
operations. Wrong agency. I saw a very, very classified
document in which the head of the CIA addressed the Army War
College and indicated that he strongly protested against these
operations, but had been ordered to cooperate.
JORDAN: Then the agency responsible is?
LOFTUS: Well, the State Department. But you see, under
the Eisenhower Administration, apparently these programs received
sanction at higher levels, someone with enough authority that
ordered the CIA to cooperate. Eisenhower had three special
assistants that ran these operations. They were sort of to
protect him in case anything went wrong. And they were C.B.
Jackson, Nelson Rockefeller, and Richard Nixon.
Now, you can imagine by 1960, when the last OPC
operation, the Bay of Pigs, has been lined up and all the other
ones have been disasters, and the Nazi groups have beend dropped
because of Communist penetration, and that even the head of the
British Secret Service that sold us these Nazi groups, Kim
Philby, is getting ready to defect to Moscow, that Richard Nixon
may not have wanted all of this to come out at that time. It
would have been embarrassing to his political career, to say the
least. I think that's why the cover-up lasted so long. So many
of the people that were involved with these State Department
operations back in the '40s and the early 'S0s later went on to
develop very, very prominent political careers. It was not the
sort of thing they wanted to surface.
JORDAN: And it didn't.
You are On the Agenda. My name is Jennifer Jordan.
We're talking with John Loftus, author of "The Belarus Secret,"
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which deals with Nazi war criminals and their happily-ever-
after life in America with the State Department sanction.
Mr. Loftus, how did you get involved and how did you get
your hands on these documents?
LOFTUS: Well, I was a trial attorney at Criminal
Division and was getting ready to come back to Boston -- I was
always planning to come back to private practice -- when I saw a
note that a new unit, the Office of Special Investigations, had
been formed to centralize efforts to hunt Nazi war criminals.
Well, I spoke a little German, I had the right intelligence
background, so I thought I'd go over for a few months. I ended
up spending more than two years.
Like all the other attorneys, I was given a regional
group of cases. My region happened to be Byelorussia. And going
through all the files, I noticed that there were striking
inconsistencies. The FBI, for example, was pretending not to
know information in some case it had already learned two years
previously in another case. And it happened too often to be a
coincidence.
So I very carefully made up a list of possibilities that
would explain how these inconsistencies...
JORDAN: What kinds of inconsistencies did you find? I
mean just give us some idea.
LOFTUS: Documents out of sequence. There are leads
that would come up. Army counterintelligence would write to the
FBI and say, "This man Emmanuel Jasiak (?) is a suspected war
criminal. He emigrated illegally to this country. We want you
to investigate." Well, when the FBI went to visit Jasiak, it
wasn't to investigate him for his Nazi background, it was to
recruit him. The FBI already knew that the Byelorussians were
being funded by the State Department [unintelligible] group. So
they were recruiting their own Byelorussian Nazis to find out
what the other intelligence agencies were doing.
When we finally got a glimpse of what was happening, I
asked the Justice Department for permission to investigate it
further. I went directly to each of the intelligence vaults.
But I didn't go up to the top level, to the Pentagon. I went
right down to the clerks in the vaults, flashed my Justice
Department credentials. And when they checked back with their
security office, they found out that I had more security
clearances than almost anyone in government. At that time they
said, "Well, sure," and gave me files.
And as the stuff started to come out -- most of the
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people in the intelligence community were pretty revolted when
they discovered what was in the files. They were very helpful.
And often I would say, "Well, look. We don't want to get your
agency involved. You're only peripheral here. We want to go
back and get the agency that did it."
LOFTUS: "So don't blow the whistle on your guys. Blow
it on another agency." And so they all blew the whistle on each
other. And before all of the agencies realized what would
happen, I had gone through each of the vaults, cross-referenced
the documents, and we knew exactly what had occurred and why.
JORDAN: Now, has the government given you sanction to
publish the book?
LOFTUS: Oh, yeah. I asked the -- when Stankevich died,
I realized that this was crazy. I could spend another 2 1/2
years building a case, and the guy could drop dead again. And
besides, I was really more interested in another section, the
Public Integrity Section that was investigating the cover-up from
Congress.
So I asked the justice Department, the CIA, the
Pentagon, everybody-else if I could write a book only about the
dead Nazis; and I would submit it for review to the intelligence
community and we'd see if they'd clear it. So they agreed.
JORDAN: And they did.
LOFTUS: And they did.
JORDAN: In other words, there are more living, still,
in this country.
LOFTUS: Oh, yes.
JORDAN: Is that the goal of your book, to force -- to
force an action by the government to either get them out or to
force the American public to say, "Wait a minute. What's going
on here? We want the dirty laundery aired a bit"?
LOFTUS: Yeah. I think it's really to late to do
anything to the individual Nazis. There's a very limited number
of attorneys that can process these cases. Maybe all tolled, we
can do 40 to 80 cases before the last Nazi dies in America. At
least we're making the effort and setting the historical
precedent that people like this will never get away with it as
long as they live. They might be next. We're always going to be
pursuing them.
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Most important, I think the reason I wrote the book was
to teach the American people that, as Churchill said, it was not
only wrong, it was a mistake; that using such people is not only
morally offensive, but it's counterproductive to national
security. The Soviets had a field day making propaganda against
the Americans. They would tell people, "Go ahead and listen to
Radio Liberty. The broadcaster there is Stanislas Stankevich,
the man who murdered your cousins." You know, we played right
into their hands.
The one insuperable advantage we have over the Soviets
in foreign affairs is our good name, that people trust us. We're
a moderate, responsible country. And we let a handful of
reckless amateurs in the intelligence community take over
programs that virtually dictated foreign policy. They engineered
coups during the Cold War. They recruited secret police
organizations, some of which make the SS look tame by comparison.
They conducted these activities with only the most minimal
approval within the Executive Branch and without Congress
knowing anything about it.
And T think it's time that the American people demanded
that Congress take this area of responsibility back over. The
Constitution says that only Congress has the power to determine
eligibility for citizenship. But for the last 30 years that
power has been exercised secretly and abused by various people
within the intelligence community, and Congress has done nothing
about it.
JORDAN: If you were to illustrate those with true guilt
to raise their hands and to say, "We went beyond the powers of
government. We went beyond the powers of justice," who would be
raising their hands? Is it the Nelson Rockefeller group and
those three that you mentioned?
LOFTUS: Yeah. I think they were policy figures. And
people told me that everything was approved at the White House
level, which would indicate those three people.
But more directly, the guys that were directly in on it,
Allen Dulles and Frank Wisner. Those would be the people who
more than anyone were responsible for this program.
I talked to retired intelligence officials who had
worked with bath men, and all came up with the same verdict.
They were warned over and over again that using these people was
reckless, there was a tremendous risk of [unintelligible], that
it was bound to backlash sooner or later. Nevertheless, they
kept on with it. They had an [unintelligible] that these secret
armies behind the Iron Curtain would actually somehow manage to
defeat the largest [unintelligible] in the world.
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JORDAN: Is our country so anti-Soviet and
anti-Communist that it can't see the philosophic similarity
betwen Naziism and Communism and the same fascist dictatorship
and the same totalitarian connection? I mean [unintelligible]
were under a different flag.
LOFTUS: There is a sad joke in Russia that a hundred
years from now the history books will say that Hitler was a petty
tyrant during the time of Stalin.
I don't think there is a dime's worth of difference,
other than in the body count.
JORDAN: I mean Stalin killed 20 million of his own
people on the street.
JORDAN: Is that -- I mean where do we say we can
support the Nazis because they're anti-Soviet, when in fact
they're both out to kill?
LOFTUS: [Unintelligible] I think the saddest part of
all is that 99 percent of all the emigres that came to this
country hate both Nazis and Communists. And they would have been
very willing to work with the United States to try and liberate
their homelands. But they weren't called on. They wanted to use
the people that had experience, intelligence professionals who
had been trained by the SS. Well, we got what we paid for.
JORDAN: In your book you state that the truth shall
make you free. But the American people have been faced with a
lot of truths and have not always chosen to face them. You can't
force freedom. And in that, how can we take such as "The
Belarus Secret" and such as the truths of Watergate, even, and
say this is what is. I mean do you see what I'm saying? How can
you bring this intelligence and make it work?
LOFTUS: Well, I think that the whole point of what I've
been doing for the last three years, which is try and get one
copy of the book out -- because as soon as one copy was out, that
was a strong warning to the intelligence community that they may
cover things like this up for ten years, ZO years, or even 30
years, but sooner or later someone like me is going to come along
and find out about it....
JORDAN: It's the beauty of democracy when it works.
LOFTUS: There's no other country in the world where I
would have been given permission by my government to stand up and
criticize such a horrendous mistake.
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JORDAN: Any response from them?
LOFTUS: All of the intelligence communities have
remained silent. None of them has issued...
JORDAN: That's not a very smart intelligence community.
LOFTUS: I think most of them are pretty honest. The
people who are there now had nothing to do with these programs.
These are things that happened 10 and 20 years ago. And I think
they were as shocked as I. As a matter of fact, a lot of people
would come up in the hallways [unintelligible].
JORDAN: [Unintelligible]...that we have been effective
in defending freedom in Third World countries, in Eastern Europe?
Not Eastern Europe, obviously. [Unintelligible]...in Europe, in
this country. Have we accomplished a bit of the goal that we set
out to do?
LOFTUS: No. I think there are real problems for us in
America. During the French Revolution, we had to choose between
our loyalties to Lafayette and the Royalists and our loyalties to
the French people. Now, we resolved it by being neutral in favor
of the people in those days.
But now our national policy seems to have changed, that
we'll support any right-wing fanatic, as long as he's anti-
communist, regardless of the misery, the torture and the oppres-
sion that he visits upon his own citizens. So we've lost the
love and respect of virtually every country in the world because
a handful of politicians thought it more important to prop up a
few anti-Communist puppets.
JORDAN: Are we still doing that now to the same degree?
Can you say it and still...
LOFTUS: Yeah. I can't promise [unintelligible]
accurate. But I think if you read the press reports, that our
government's pursuing an energetic clandestine program in South
America. And some of those governments are very questionable
[unintelligible].
JORDAN: Is there anything that we, as American citzens,
listening and living and reading the papers, can do, can actually
do to affectthe decisions made in the powers that be?
JORDAN: To call up and say, "Cet out of South America,"
or, "Get out of...."
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LOFTUS: Well, you know, I think the solution is much
simpler than that. Just simply call your congressman and say, "I
want this investigated. I don't want this one to drop through
the cracks. If they can bring in Nazis, they can bring in
anybody. Don't let this investigation die."
I think that there's a very real chance that it might.
There aren't many Jewish voters in America. It's not a sexy
issue. It's a moral issue.
I think the main thing is to keep the heat on Congress,
to make sure that they follow the congressional investigations.
If Congress stands as a check on intelligence policy, immigration
policy, there's a lot to be said for that. Just to know that
someday someone might go over your books is often the best
incentive to keep those books in order.
LOFTUS: Yeah. I'm not saying that the Congress should
lean over the intelligence professionals' shoulders and say what
they should or should not do. All I'm saying is they certainly
should come in, at least after the fact, and review what has been
done. And Congress has been very, very negligent in that regard.
JORDAN: What would be your suggestion for the future,
for an outlook, for beginning right now to clean our act up and
to make our government once again respectable the world over,
once again formidable to the Soviet nation? Now I don't think
they're looking at it very formidably.
LOFTUS: I think a lot of people around the world
genuinely wish us well, but think that Americans are very naive
and are woefully ignorant about world politics. I think that
when issues like this come up, people today are learning about
the Holocaust, learning about Eastern Europe, the terrible things
that happened. I think we're getting more and mare of an
international perspective.
I think that the short-range solution is education.
We've got to realize how much we don't know about the world. In
the long run, I think the real solution for this might be a
whistle blowers act, setting up a special section in Congress
where people who have knowledge of illegal intelligence programs
can come with full immunity and legally disclose the information,
and then just have a congressman pick up a phone call and say,
"We know about it. We want it stopped."
JORDAN: I recently read a book comparing the Weimar
Republic [unintelligible] Nazi Germany with contemporary America,
[unintelligible] parallels. Do you see any kinds of intellectual
comparisons to be made between what our government is becoming
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 and moving into, what they're supporing, and the downfall of the
Weimar Republic?
LOFTUS: Oh, I think it's very easy to see a parallel in
terms of a trend toward immorality, a disgust with government in
general, that there's nothing that can be done, a popular anger
swelling up as the economy heads further and further into
disarray.
I'm an optimist. I think that the one thing that
Americans do is solve problems, and we solve government problems,
intelligence problems. I think for 30 years people didn't know
we had a problem, that our intelligence community is scattered
and divided. People compete with each other, and that very
division allows these illegal operations to happen.
No, I don't think that America's going down the tubes.
I think that this is a sign of America's strength, that we could
have written that such terrible things happened, and then take
action [unintelligible].
JORDAN: Thank you for being with us, and good luck on
your book, "The Belarus Secret."
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