FULL TEXT: MIDDLE EAST

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP88-01070R000100330006-3
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 22
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: May 14, 2007
• Sequence Number: 6
• Publication Date: August 29, 1982
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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RADIO TV REPORTS, INC.
4701 WILLARD AVENUE, CHEVY CHASE, MARYLAND 20815 656-4068
PROGRAM This Week with David Brinkley STATION WJLA-TV
ABC News
DATE August 29, 1982 11:30 A.M. CITY Washington, D.C.
DAVID BRINKLEY: Here in Washington, in Amman, Jordan,
in Beirut, Damascus, Tunis. We're all here. We're ready. Glad
to have you with us. We'll have today's news, what has happened
since the Sunday morning papers, an interview with King Hussein
of Jordan live by satellite. He is now the host, so to speak,
for some of the PLO guerrillas pushed out of Beirut. What will
he do with him? An interview with Hassan Abu Sharif (?) of the
PLO. Now that they are scattered over half the Middle East, what
will the PLO do now? Anything? A background report on what this
is all about. And our free-for-all discussion with George Will,
Sam Donaldson, and Tom Wicker. All here on our Sunday program.
One name to add to that list, General Ariel Sharon, the
Israeli Defense Minister. We expect to come in later in the
program. Stay with us and see what happens.
In the Middle East, a remarkable series of events now
coming to an end. The guerrilla fighters of the Palestine
Liberation Organization, about 8000 of them, driven out of Beirut
by the Israeli Army. And now, today, leaving reasonably
peacefully and being scattered through eight countries of the
Middle East. While the PLO is not destroyed, not dead, it will
have great difficulty now in organizing any kind of attack on
Israel because its members and its leaders will be scattered over
an area of a thousand miles or more. Communication and
coordination will be somewhere between difficult and impossible.
Yasser Arafat, the PLO's leader, says he himself will
leave Beirut soon and publicly, but does not say when and doesn't
say where he will go. We have a report that he will go to
Athens, Greece, at least for a few days.
OFFICES IN: WASHINGTON D.C. ? NEW YORK ? LOS ANGELES ? CHICAGO ? DETROIT ? AND OTHER PRINCIPAL CITIES
Material supplied by Radio N Reports, Inc. may be used for file and reference purposes only. It may not be reproduced, sold or publicly demonstrated or exhibited.
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The PLOs have left by ship, airplane, military truck,
under instructions to wear clean uniforms and to conduct
themselves before the world with dignity.
Hickey.
A report now from Beirut and ABC News correspondent Jim
JIM HICKEY: Amid continuing speculation as to exactly
when PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat will leave Lebanon, another 1200
Palestinian fighters loaded trucks at dawn this morning and
pulled out of West Beirut. Many high-ranking PLO leaders have
already been evacuated. And Lebanese radio reports Arafat is
expected to leave within the next 24 hours. And PLO sources
indicate his departure will be highly public, to suggest he and
his Palestinians are victorious and not defeated.
Today's group of evacuees, which left with the usual
hail of gunfire and salutes, are members of the Palestinian
Liberation Army under Syrian control. They are headed overland
to Syria, which means they must pass through Israeli and Lebanese
Christian-held territory. An unusual number of Israeli flags
fluttered in the morning breeze as the Palestinian convoy rolled
through the eastern side of the Gallery Saman (?) checkpoint.
And in suburban East Beirut, Christian Lebanese spat at the PLA
soldiers and made rude gestures as the convoy went by.
This is the second overland evacuation of PLO out of
Beirut. The first convoy, last Friday, took nine hours to reach
its destination in Syria, but experienced only minor problems.
Meanwhile, 600 more Palestinians loaded a Greek ship at
the port of Beirut this morning. They too are headed for Syria
by the way of Tartus. And at the Beirut airport, heavily damaged
in the Israeli bombing, Lebanese workers have begun making
repairs. The airport, now used by the Israeli Air Force for
military transport, is expected to reopen for commercial traffic,
perhaps within the week.
BRINKLEY: About a thousand of the PLOs have arrived in
Bizerte, Tunisia and have been welcomed with flags, shouting,
friendly signs, banners. And they've been sent to reception
centers or recreation areas, which they have already found
unsatisfactory, and several are already trying to get out.
A report from ABC News correspondent Greg Dobbs in
GREG DOBBS: After the beating they took in Beirut and
after a week's journey in a crowded boat, their heroes' welcome
made them, some said, happy to be here. But when the cheering
was behind them, this is what they learned lies ahead: a dusty,
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deserted [unintelligible] camp an hour-and-a-half's drive from
the capital.
For the past week and a half, Tunisian workers have been
putting in ping-pong and basketball and soccer. But after
enjoying relatively free rein in the cosmopolitan city of Beirut,
this place wasn't much for the men from the PLO.
Their leaders had something better awaiting them in the
form of this requisitioned beachfront hotel. And Yasser Arafat,
if he comes, is expected to occupy a nearby seaside villa. But
the rank and file are in the camp, disarmed, womanless, and
bored. Which is why it's no surprise that while we were at the
camp this morning, two of the new arrivals were brought in by
local police, having been picked up on the road trying to
hitchhike to Algeria. Another one told us, through a translator,
"I'll crawl on my hands and knees, if I have to, to the nearest
town," which is almost 15 miles away.
A Tunisian soldier at the camp said, "They're all trying
to slip away."
So it's difficult to say how they'll stay put for 24
months, or even 24 weeks, if this is an example of the first 24
hours.
BRINKLEY: ...Coming next, Barry Serafin's report from
BRINKLEY: Israel's Defense Minister, Ariel Sharon, is
in Washington this week. And he is, if nothing else,
provocative. Israel, he said, will never agree, never agree to
any Palestinian state on any territory now controlled by Israel.
Beyond that, he said, the Palestinians already have a homeland,
and it is called Jordan, King Hussein's Jordan. We will ask King
Hussein about that in a few minutes.
In the meantime, with our Sunday regular James Wooten on
vacation, here's today's background report from ABC News
correspondent Barry Serafin in Amman, Jordan.
BARRY SERAFIN: A couple of days ago, Israel's Defense
Minister declared that the Palestinians already have the homeland
they seek right here in Jordan. Well, not surprisingly, neither
the PLO nor the Jordanian government thinks much of that
suggestion, even though they go to great lengths to demonstrate
how well they get along.
The most recent and striking example was a week ago
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today, when King Hussein personally welcomed and embrached each
of 265 Palestinians who had fought in Lebanon, describing them as
gallant and courageous. But relations have not always been so
warm between Jordan's monarch and Palestinians. Not quite 12
years ago, on what came to be called Black September, a long,
bloody series of battles broke out between King Hussein's armed
forces and PLO guerrillas who challenged his authority. After
months of fighting and thousands of deaths on each side, the
guerrillas were crushed. Many of them were expelled to Lebanon.
But as he greeted fighters returning from Lebanon last week, the
King dismissed all that as history.
KING HUSSEIN: We are one family and one people, and we
have been. And whatever may have happened in the past was a
family affair that does not concern anyone.
SERAFIN: Indeed, there has been an accommodation
between the government and the Palestinians through the years,
partly as the result of pressure from other Arab countries and
partly because there are so many Palestinians here. They make up
more than half of Jordan's 2 1/2 million people. But so far, the
few to return left Jordan only when the war in Lebanon broke out.
The King has offered to take in others with Jordanian passports.
But privately, some residents of Palestinian camps here say many
who left Jordan after the Black September fighting are still
afraid to come back. Those who have returned have had a hero's
welcome in the camps.
[Man speaking in Arabic]
SERAFIN: Nasser Abu Shawar, a lieutenant in the
Palestine Liberation Army, says maybe the PLO was hurt a little
bit in Beirut, but the Israelis didn't finish the PLO like they
thought. The PLO will fight until the Palestinian people start
their own state.
In Washington on Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ariel
Sharon insisted that that problem has already been solved.
ARIEL SHARON: Israel never agreed and will never agree
to a second Palestinian state. And I made it very clear again
today.
ADNAN ABU ODA: In my opinion, this is quite ridiculous.
SERAFIN: Jordanian Information Minister Adnan Abu
Oda (?), a close adviser of King Hussein, claims the Israelis are
simply trying to hang on to territory they occupy.
OBA: what Sharon really means is to annex the West Bank
and Gaza. But instead of saying that, he says, "Well, they have
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MAN: This solution is not acceptable. Because
what we, as Palestinians, want is to go back to our homeland.
And our homeland is there. It's not something which is an
abstract thing. Not only our homeland [unintelligible], but even
our houses, our real houses, the fences, the yards, the trees,
are still there.
SERAFIN: While vowing to continue the struggle, Nasser
acknowledges that after Lebanon, PLO tactics will have to change.
Without offering specifics, he forecasts major diplomatic
efforts.
Palestinians are angry about the lack of Arab support in
Ramik Khoury (?), editor-in-chief of the Jordan Times.
RAMIK KHOURY: There was a tremendous feeling of despair
and outrage among Arab people that none of the Arab states were
dong anything. And it was a feeling of helplessness, and it
showed.
SERAFIN: But the display of Israeli firepower in
Lebanon has not been lost on the PLO or the Arab states which
stayed on the sidelines. The PLO's fighting ability has been
crippled not only by the war, but by the dispersal of the
evacuees to various Arab countries which want to avoid becoming
staging areas for new PLO operations, thus inviting massive new
Israeli reprisals.
Jordan, which shares the longest border with Israel of
any Arab nation, and whose cities are just minutes away by air,
is a case in point.
At the same time, just across that border is the
occupied West Bank that Palestinians in Jordan and elsewhere
still see as their rightful homeland.
There are other influences on Jordan, as well, not least
of which is the $1 1/4 billion it receives yearly from Persian
Gulf oil states, principally Saudi Arabia, money that helps to
finance the boom-town construction underway all over the capital
city of Amman.
King Hussein is sensitive to the pressures from all
quarters. He is a careful man, a survivor, who's been on the
throne a remarkable 30 years. And so despite his reputation as a
pro-Western moderate, he has resisted coaxing from Washington to
join in the Camp David peace process. He's not about to isolate
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himself like Egypt's late President Sadat.
ODA: Jordan is potentially a positive partner.
But Jordan would not do the work alone, because Jordan cannot
speak for the Palestinians.
SERAFIN: Both in the government and in the streets of
Palestinian camps here, you hear the same thing: The war in
Lebanon has put new pressure on everyone. If the United States
does not now, finally, show its willingness to break with Israel
on issues such as recognition of the PLO, Arab moderates may have
no role left to play.
Minister Abu Oda says Arabs will be watching to see
whether the U.S. becomes more willing to rein in Israel than it
was in Lebanon.
ODA: The horrifying thing is the possibility that this
episode could be a very bad precedent in the area, that the
Israelis feel their sheer force in dictating policies all around.
SERAFIN: But if the problems in the way of a peace
settlement seem even bigger than before, the PLO's Nasser remains
hopeful.
Do you think it's likely that you and I might be sitting
here five years from now or ten years from now having this same
conversation, saying someday.
NASSER: Not here. In Jerusalem, maybe. [Laughter]
SERAFIN: Still, it's as hard as ever, especially in the
wake of the war in Lebanon, to see reasons for optimism on any
side. It's as apparent as ever that because of its geography,
its history, and the makeup of its people, Jordan and its
cautious King would have to be part of any permament Middle East
peace arrangement. But unless the terms change, it's a part King
Hussein refuses to play.
BRINKLEY: Our interview with King Hussein of Jordan
will be along in a few minutes. Joining me will be George Will,
ABC analyst; and Sam Donaldson, ABC News White House
correspondent, with questions.
And coming next, our interview with Hassan Abu Sharif of
BRINKLEY: To Mr. Hassan Abu Sharif in Beirut, of the
PLO and of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
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Thank you very much for coming in today, Mr. Abu Sharif.
We're glad to have you with us.
Now that the PLO is leaving Beirut, where does that
leave you?
HASSAN ABU SHARIF: The PLO will continue its struggle
until we achieve our aims in establishing our independent state.
BRINKLEY: Well, with the PLO scattered over several
countries of the Middle East, won't that be extremely difficult?
SHARIF: The PLO had always been wherever the
Palestinian people live. The Palestinians have been dispersed
since 1948. The Israelis, actually, with the help of the
British, scattered our people in 1948, and not in 1982. So the
PLO will remain wherever the Palestinians are and will remain
struggling to get them back into one piece of land, the
Palestinian state.
GEORGE WILL: Mr. Abu Sharif, you just described the aim
of your movement as establishing your own political independence.
Not long ago, you have described the aim of your movement as the
destruction of the Zionist entity, the destruction of Israel.
Does that mean that you no longer aim to destroy Israel?
SHARIF: We have always given a very generous offer of
living peacefully together with the Jews in Palestine. But since
the Zionist movement had rejected this offer, we have as a goal,
as an aim to get our people into part of Palestine where our
independent state would be established.
SAM DONALDSON: Mr. Sharif, as a practical matter, how
are you going to do that? You are scattered now to several
countries. Your political structure is going to be dispersed.
You have no teeth. Your fighters are not going to be available
when you need them. So how are you going to make good on any of
your aims?
SHARIF: Well, first of all, we have to ask the United
States if they still regard the West Bank and Gaza as occupied
parts of Palestine. If so, then the occupants should withdraw.
DONALDSON: Well now, the Defense Minister of Israel,
Ariel Sharon, says Israel will never allow a Palestinian state on
those lands. And he says tht Jordan is the Palestinian state.
Do you think you can convince King Hussein of that?
SHARIF: Well, as a matter of fact, we want Reagan to
tell us whether he considers the West Bank and Gaza as occupied
or as part of Israel. If it is a part of Israel, then Sharon is
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right. But if the United States regards it as occupied, then
Sharon will have to withdraw.
WILL: Mr. Abu Sharif, the basic Israeli position is
that whatever else you can say about the West Bank, it does not
clearly belong to Jordan. You seem to be saying the same thing.
Are you saying that Jordan's claim, which it sought to enforce by
annexing about 20-some years ago, that Jordan's claim to the West
Bank is illegitimate?
SHARIF: The Palestinian land is always Palestinian.
The West Bank and Gaza area part of Palestine that was partly
usurped in 1948 by the Zionist movement. And therefore we
consider that every meter of Palestine is a legible [sic] land
for the Palestinians to live in and to establish their
independent state on.
Hussein actually annexed, in one way or the other, the
West Bank. Now we want our independence.
BRINKLEY: Well, do I understand you to say that if you
were to have the West Bank and Gaza as a Palestinian state, that
would be satisfactory to you? Would that satisfy you?
SHARIF: The program of the PLO is very clear on that.
It is satisfactory for the Palestinians to establish their own
independent state on any part of Palestine.
DONALDSON: Well now, the United States is not for an
independent Palestinian state in that area. That has been our
policy so far. What makes you think that U.S. policy would
change?
SHARIF: The American people will definitely, now that
they realize how just is the Palestinian struggle and how injust
the aggression of the Israelis is, will help us to achieve that.
DONALDSON: Well, Mr. Sharif, public opinion polls in
the United States show that support for the State of Israel, if
not its entire policy range, is at an all-time high in this
country. What do you know that they don't know?
SHARIF: Well, at a certain level, the public opinion in
the United States will definitely exert pressure. Because I
don't think that the American people will accept this holocaust
done to the Palestinians, this massacre committed against our
people. And definitely, they realize now that without giving the
Palestinians an independent state, there would be no peace in the
Middle East.
WILL: Mr. Sharif, in answer to the last question from
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Mr. Brinkley, you seemed to say, or I guess you did explicitly
say that the Palestinians would be content with their own state
on the West Bank and Gaza. Does that mean that the Palestinians,
in your view, the PLO, in your view, can accept the simultaneous
existence of Israel as a Jewish state?
SHARIF: This is the PLO program. It was very clear.
And although many people decided not to read it carefully,
because they don't want to read it carefully, we now read it to
you carefully. The PLO had an aim. It is to establish a
Palestine independent state on any part of Palestine.
BRINKLEY: And if that happened, would that be the end
of your hostility to Israel?
SHARIF: This would be probably a start for simultaneous
cooperation between Palestinians and Jews.
WILL: Isn't, then, Mr. Sharif, your argument as much
with Jordan as it is with Israel? Because even if you could get
Israel to cede its claims, whatever they are, to the West Bank,
you still have to deal with the King of Jordan, who, as you know,
unlike Begin, has tried to annex the West Bank.
SHARIF: Well, who told you that we differentiate
greatly between Begin and Hussein? We like very much to
cooperate with the Jews in Palestine. And we are ready to go as
long and as far as they are ready to go. We are really planning
to build this part of the world together.
BRINKLEY: Mr. Abu Sharif, thank you very much for
coming in and for your interesting remarks to us this morning.
SHARIF: Thank you very much.
BRINKLEY: Coming next will be our interview by
satellite from Amman, Jordan with King Hussein.
BRINKLEY: Your Majesty, King Hussein of Jordan, we
thank you very much for coming in and being with us today -- by
satellite, that is, from Amman. Very glad to have you.
Ariel Sharon, the Defense Minister of Israel, is in
Washington for the last couple of days, and he has been telling
us that the Palestinians, who demand a homeland, already have
one, and it is called Jordan.
What do you have to say about that?
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KING HUSSEIN: I believe that Jordan has, to its credit,
always associated itself with the Palestinian hopes and
aspirations and with the Arab cause, and has given Palestinians
awaiting a resolution of their problem on their legitimate soil
the chance to feel at home here in Jordan as members of the
Jordanian family. But this does not mean, in any way, that the
issue is resolved. The issue has been, will be until a
resolution is reached, that of legitimate Palestinian and Arab
rights on Palestinian soil, under occupation by Israel, in the
West Bank, Arab Jerusalem, and Gaza.
DONALDSON: King
Hussein, the last time you made the
Palestinians feel at home
in
Jordan they almost seized your
throne. In 1970 they had
to
be expelled in a very bloody war.
Is there any danger that
that
will happen again? Or do you have
just a few of them there,
not
enough to pose a threat?
KING HUSSEIN: Not many left Jordan in 1970. A very few
did so. And once again I would like to say that the struggle at
that time was between law and order and chaos and anarchy.
Jordanians and Palestinians were on both sides. This was an
experience that was a very sad one for all concerned. I believe
we have learned from it. And I hope and trust that it will never
reoccur again.
WILL: Your Majesty, we've just heard Mr. Sharif of the
PLO say, speaking with regard to the territorial claim that the
PLO makes to the West Bank, that the PLO does not differentiate
much between Begin and Hussein.
Given that that's the case and given that Mr. Begin says
that whatever else may be true of the West Bank, it doesn't
clearly belong to Jordan, who is the PLO arguing with at this
point? Are they arguing with Mr. Begin, or do they have an equal
argument with King Hussein?
KING HUSSEIN: There is no argument with me. But I take
very strong exception to being likened to Prime Minister Begin by
anyone. Mr. Sharif of the PFLP, or anybody else, at that moment
or at any time.
We have striven to support the Palestinians, to carry
out our national duty within the Arab world and the Arab movement
since the beginning of this century, for the recovery of
Palestinian rights and Palestinian soil. We have no territorial
ambitions, nor do we wish to impose ourselves on Palestinians.
All we hope for them and all we will seek to achieve in
supporting them is the recovery of those rights on their
legitimate soil.
BRINKLEY: Your Majesty, now that the PLO is leaving
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Beirut -- a good many have already left -- what happens next in
the Middle East? What is your judgment? What is your assessment
of these events of the last week or so?
KING HUSSEIN: My feeling is that, unfortunately,
following the very, very tragic events, the ugly, almost
unbelievable nightmare that we all lived through in Lebanon, the
focus of attention will be the Palestinian issue. I'm sure that
the Lebanese problem will be dealt with adequately. And that
needs to be resolved, as well. But I hope that the world will,
and the United States in particular, concentrate on the
Palestinian issue, with all those desirous of seeing progress
towards the establishment of a just and durable peace, for that
to come about.
DONALDSON: Well, King Hussein, let's...
KING HUSSEIN: I believe...
DONALDSON: Excuse me, sir.
KING HUSSEIN: ...that we will probably see more of an
emphasis and a real desire for genuine progress on the political
level to find a solution. If we don't succeed in the very
immediate future, I believe that the results are a disaster that
will overtake all of us in this entire area, and maybe the world.
DONALDSON: I'm sorry I started to interrupt you.
But let's go back to the idea of a Palestinian homeland.
What about the West Bank? Judea and Samaria, as Mr. Begin
refers to that area. Do you expect to get it hack, number one?
Would you be content to see a Palestinian state established in
that territory, number two?
KING HUSSEIN: I'm not in possession of a mandate,
either from the Palestinians or from the Arab world, following
the Rabat summit conference, to handle the problems of the West
Bank directly. And I would not do so until I was offered such a
mandate, if it came about.
But I will be supportive of all efforts to recover both
the West Bank and Gaza for the people of Palestine, for them to
decide their future. I believe that their links with Jordan are
strong. And maybe there will come a time before too long when we
can, even in anticipation of developments of a major nature in
terms of a solution to the problem, look together at what our
future relations will...
DONALDSON: But you do not seem to be ruling out the
idea that the West Bank may eventually become the homeland for
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the Palestinians. Would you rule out the idea that it might
become a separate state, apart from Jodan?
KING HUSSEIN: I'm not ruling anything out.
WILL: Your Majesty, if you're not ruling anyting out,
does that mean you're not ruling out a return on Israel's part,
unlikely though it now seems, to something like the Alon plan,
which was the traditional formula advocated by many Israelis,
swapping territory for peace -- that is, adjusting outward the
1967 borders to be more defensible, in Israel's point of view,
leaving some Israeli forces on the West Bank, but returning a
good bit of the West Bank to what it was before 67 -- that is,
Jordanian sovereignty?
KING HUSSEIN: I believe, with the distances involved, a
state of peace is a state of mind. It's a feeling on both sides
that peace has been achieved and that it's worth maintaining and
keeping.
I believe that all the territories occupied in June of
'67 should return to Arab sovereignty.
And, on the other hand, in regard to security and the
demands in that regard, they should be taken in a manner that is
reciprocal. Also, the Arabs demand security for themselves from
Israel. So if peace is achieved, I believe that security
arrangements should be looked at as to give both sides the
feeling of security they need for the future.
BRINKLEY: Your Majesty, with the PLO being scattered,
as it is, throughout a great deal of the Middle East, do you see
it as being finished as a fighting force?
KING HUSSEIN: I don't believe it is finished. I
believe that it's very much alive. The Palestinian issue, the
Palestinian cause, the Palestinian just demands regarding to
their rights on their legitimate soil. And I believe that
Palestine is the focus of attention of the world at this moment,
and will be.
WILL: Your Majesty, would you welcome at least a
partial repeal of what was done at the Rabat conference in '74?
That is, would you welcome having restored to you and to Jordan
more of a role as the legitimate spokesman of the Palestinian
people?
KING HUSSEIN: This is not for me to suggest. I would
go along with anything that the Palestinians and the Arabs
wished, or wish in the future. I'm committed to the decision.
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13
And, incidentally, regarding the past, the question of
annexation of the West Bank is inaccurate. It was an Arab effort
to save what could be saved of Palestine following the partition
plan and the war of '48. There was a unity of Palestine and
Jordan under the Hashemite Kingdom for the period up to '67.
People were elected to the Jordanian Parliament in equal numbers
from the West and East Bank, and to the Senate, and in the
government. And at the same time, a part of that constitution
read that that attachment of the West Bank to the East Bank in no
way interfered with the rights of any Palestinians regarding an
eventual solution to their problem.
DONALDSON: King Hussein, I want to ask...
KING HUSSEIN: And we sought up to 1974, up to the Rabat
summit, to recover their territory. We did not see to return it
to Jordan or Jordan's control, but to leave it under
international auspices, for people to decide their fate and their
future. And we then accepted that. And we still have the same
view.
DONALDSON: King Hussein, I want to switch to one of the
lessons people think they learned from the Lebanese war, and that
is that American equipment seems to be better than Soviet
equipment. American planes destroyed Soviet planes, American
tanks Soviet tanks, and Soviet antiaircraft batteries.
Recently you seemed to have made a decision to purchase
Soviet equipment, particularly antiaircraft batteries. Might you
now reconsider it, since it appears to be inferior?
KING HUSSEIN: I do not believe that this is the issue.
I believe that Israel owes the United States an awful lot; and at
least morally, it should listen to the United States and to the
conscience of the American people.
In the 1970s alone, Israel received $13 billion worth of
aid. That represented almost 50 percent of aid from that figure
was in grant aid.
DONALDSON: But Your Majesty, that is not my question,
sir. I think the United States, at least Defense Secretary
Weinberger, suggests we might look favorably upon a request from
you for new arms. Why don't you ask for American equipment,
since Soviet equipment appears to be no good?
KING HUSSEIN: Well, this is not the issue. The issue
is that the lesson of Lebanon has not gone unnoticed by us,
either myself, my countrymen, or the armed forces of Jordan. And
Jordan will not be weak in the face of any possible threat, in
terms of its destiny and its future, be it from Israel or from
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any other quarter. Jordan has been threatened in the past, and
we are determined to do our utmost to build our strength to the
best of our abilities to defend not only our existence, but what
we believe in, the principles, ideas we are for.
And we hope that the United States will not hesitate to
give us what we need in the way of arms and weapons. Otherwise
we'd have to find them anywhere in the world that we can.
BRINKLEY: Your Majesty, thank you very much for being
with us today. We have enjoyed having you.
We'll be back in a moment with some questions for the
Defense Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon.
BRINKLEY: Defense Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel has
just arrived in our studio, bringing a map.
What are you going to show us on the map?
Welcome, by the way. We're glad to have you.
What are you going to show us on the map?
ARIEL SHARON: Thank you for being here.
I was just watching King Hussein. And I would say it's
ironic situation that, being neighbors, living so close, we have
to talk for the television. And I'm not underestimating the
importance of the media. But I would have -- we would have
preferred to talk directly. And if this question that you just
asked King Hussein, if he would like to exchange some words with
me, if this question would have been put to me, my answer would
have been positive.
BRINKLEY: Well, if we can settle it all for you, we'd
be more than happy to do it.
SHARON: We -- as you know, we were looking for every
way for talking to Arab leaders. And I can just repeat again
that I remember that when Prime Minister Begin informed the
Cabinet, his first Cabinet, in July '77, in the first Cabinet
meeting he addressed the members of the Cabinet, saying that most
of his effort will be dedicated to meet with Arab leaders. As a
matter of fact, that's what altogether brought in the end to the
meeting with the late Sadat and to the desired peace.
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DONALDSON: Well, Mr. Minister, let us get right down to
cases, sir. We have very little time. You have a map. Let's
get to the West Bank. Now, you have said that Israel would never
allow a Palestinian state to be created on the West Bank. My
question to you is, does Israel ever intend to do anything but
keep Judea and Samaria, your names for the West Bank? Is that
your territory now?
SHARON: You asked about the map before. I would like
to use the map now.
question.
DONALDSON: No, I would like to ask if you'd answer my
SHARON: You'll get an answer. You'll get an answer.
You know, altogether, what are we talking about? You
know, we are talking about a country...
DONALDSON: A very small country.
SHARON: A very small country, altogether. And I'm
pointing now -- all this area which I'm pointing now at used to
BRINKLEY: Could you turn the plastic back so we can get
a picture of it? That's too shiny. We won't be able to see it.
SHARON: Yes. But then I'm not being showing the West
Bank. And you may have a question -- are we going to annex
something? -- something like that.
DONALDSON: My question was, do you consider it your
territory now?
SHARON: I would like just to show. All this area --
all this area, that was Palestine, or the land of Israel, until
1922. In 1922 in was the first partition, when what used to be
called Trans-Jordan became Jordan later. And that consists of 75
percent of the total area of the land of Israel, of Palestine.
We never wanted to annex this area. We proposed to the
Palestinian inhabitants of Smaria and Judea and Gaza district --
that that is not the term that I'm using. These are the old
biblical terms, historical terms. You can find them on every old
map you...
DONALDSON: Mr. Begin says God gave that territory to
the Jewish people.
SHARON: That is the cradle of the Jewish people.
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DONALDSON: Is it yours today? That's my question.
SHARON: But what we are doing now, what we offered,
what we offered is we offered to the Palestinian inhabitants an
autonomy plan and a plan that gives them a possibility to run
their life, almost without any interference. What is crucially
important for us and what we are going to keep in our hands --
and that is part of the Camp David Accord -- that is the
security. The security is our responsibility. We aren't going
to get any guarantees from anyone.
One should understand that Israel is a small, tiny
country [unintelligible]. And that is -- for us, it's a question
of death or life, and life, who is going to control...
DONALDSON: George Will has some questions, and David
Brinkley. I take it the answer to my question is yes, you do
intend to keep it. You believe it is Israeli territory.
SHARON: I mean I would like to say what I think about
that. I mean you have so many chances, being in television,
always to say. I'm coming very seldom here.
DONALDSON: But you get to give the answers, sir.
SHARON: So I would like to give an answer.
When it comes to the security of Israel, the answer is
yes. When it comes to, I would say, annexation, my answer is no.
WILL: General Sharon, a large number of Israeli leaders
in the past have said that the key to security for Israel and to
peace in the region is to exchange territory for peace. And in
that formula we have something like the Alon plan, which was to
move Israel's '67 borders out a bit, keep Israel defense forces
on the high points on the West Bank, but give back much of the
physical territory of the West Bank to be under the Jordanian
flag. Are you ruling that out?
SHARON: First I would like to say that the Alon plan --
and I admire the man. He was one of our brightest commanders in
the war for independence. He was then 30 years, and led maybe
the main military operations and moves during the war. But his
plan did not talk about keeping our hands on the high terrain,
but the belly of Jordan or the Jordan rift at a very low place,
completely overruled and controlled -- controlled completely,
overlooked and controlled by the mountains of Samaria and Judea.
This situation cannot be accepted. And we believe that,
from the security point of view, we have to keep the area, the
high terrain and the River Jordan. And that, of course, can be
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done without interfering in internal life of the local
population, that can run, according to the autonomy plan that we,
ourselves -- it was our plan. Nobody ever forced us to come to
this plan. We offered the plan, which enabled them to run their
life.
And, you know, Israel is known so much for its military
capability. But they could have taken tremendous advantage of
Israel being, I would say, one of the most advanced countries
from the agricultural point of view, research and science and
[unintelligible] and so on. And all that they can share with us
without [unintelligible] all our experience.
And I hope, as a matter of fact, that after the
expulsion of the terrorists from Beirut now, it's a new era of
peace coming to the region. I started, myself, saying
negotiations. So I renewed negotiations with Arab leaders just a
few days ago. Coming home, I'm going to proceed with that. And
I hope that we'll find a way for peaceful coexistence.
WILL: King Hussein seemed just to say, on our show a
moment ago, that Jordan really never intended to annex the West
Bank, that it is still an unallocated portion of the Palestine
mandate.
In the Washington Post this week, where all the Arab
leaders seemed to be materializing in print, your Foreign
Minister Shamir said, "The crucial point is that it is
unthinkable that Jews should be forbidden to live in Bethlehem
and Hebron," and other places. That is, to use your phrase, the
cradle of the Jewish people.
Given -- if you were given, under some settlement of
this unallocated portion of the mandate, the guranteed right of
Jews to live and settle in this area, does it matter to Israel
under whose sovereignty, under whose national flag the Jews live?
SHARON: First I would like to say that King Hussein did
annex this area. And I think there were two countries in the
world -- one of them was Great Britain -- that recognized this
annexation. It [unintelligible] what was the other one.
WILL: Pakistan, I think.
SHARON: Pakistan, maybe.
So he did annex. And not only that he did annex, but he
called in the constitution that was -- the Jordan constitution.
There are exactly the number of inhabitants of Samaria and Judea
who can be members of the Jordan Parliament, and so on and so.
They did annex. Practically, they did annex. Not only
practically, but officially.
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We believe that Jews and Arabs have been always living
together in the land of Israel, or, as you call it, Palestine.
There are 600,000 Palestinian Arabs who live within the pre-'67
boundaries as Israeli citizens, 600,000. We don't see any
possibility to draw any line which would say distinct between
Jewish population, Arab population. These two people must find a
way to live together.
And altogether, I believe that now, after the threat of
terrorism from Lebanon, and mostly after the expulsion of the
terrorists and their political headquarters from Beirut, we are
facing a new era in the area which will enable these two peoples
to live together, to cooperate, to live in peaceful coexistence.
BRINKLEY: General, Prime Minister Begin says, in his
opinion, you are the greatest general in history. Which, I
gather, puts you in the company of Hannibal, Alexander, Robert E.
Lee, Dwight Eisenhower, MacArthur, and a number of other famous
military leaders. I assume...
SHARON: May I say that though I think Prime Minister
Begin is a man of truth, but in this case he did exaggerate.
BRINKLEY: All right. Well, in your capacity as a
general -- in his view, the greatest -- how do you see -- what do
you see as -- you have scattered your enemies from Beirut.
They're going to eight countries, I think. Do you see them as
being finished as a fighting force? The PLO, is it finished?
SHARON: I would say that they were defeated, heavily
defeated militarily. But more than that, politically.
Militarily, Israel is a strong country. And, of course,
Israel could have entered West Beirut. We didn't enter West
Beirut because we wanted to avoid it as much as possible. And we
did. We believe that by a combination of pressure and
negotiation, that might be solved.
So they have been defeated mostly -- or, no doubt,
militarily, but also politically, because all their activities --
how could the PLO, altogether, operate? They could operate ony
due to a pressure and threat of terrorism in the region, and
being, I would say, part of, or more than a part -- I would say
that was a center of world terrorism.
Losing this capability of acting almost without any
interference, I would say like a state within a state, without --
Lebanon was a state without any total control or government for
many years -- there they could have operated. But once they were
scattered all around the Middle, from North Africa to Yemen, it's
a different situation.
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As a matter of fact, King Hussein himself, when the
terrorists came to Jordan, I mean he greeted them. But what did
happen, he put them immediately in a camp in the desert. They
were disarmed in the desert.
BRINKLEY: Are they finished, militarily?
SHARON: No. No, I wouldn't say they are finished. I
think that the Free World should show no compromise when it comes
to terrorism. And Israel set an example by, being though a small
nation, we, I think, the only one who decided not to agree and
not to get into any compromises with terrorism. Because we
regard terrorism as one of the main threats to human beings, to
free countries. And it's not only because of their casualties
that were inflicted, heavy casualties, but we saw in the PLO
terrorism a threat for the peace that has been achieved already
and for the peace that we might achieve in the future, and I hope
we will achieve.
DONALDSON: General Sharon, you may be the greatest
general in history, but you have a record of...
SHARON: No, I do't think...
BRINKLEY: Well, that's Begin's judgment.
DONALDSON: You have a record of insubordination, as
well. And I want to ask you about a specific act.
SHARON: I beg your pardon. I didn't...
DONALDSON: A record of insubordination in your military
career. And I want to ask you about a specific act in the
Lebanese war, that last 12-hour bombing of Beirut, about which
President Reagan expressed his outrage.
After the next Cabinet meeting in Jerusalem, Western
reporters, at least, were told by officials present at the
meeting that there'd been a showdown between you and Prime
Minister Begin, with the Prime Minister saying words to the
effect, "I am going to run this government, not you," and that
that had not been authorized.
I want to know if that last 12-hour bombing of Beirut,
which killed so many people, was authorized by your government,
or whether you did it on your own.
SHARON: I would like first to make very clear about
several points.
One, your information that you said now, that so many
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people were killed, is incorrect. We were not attacking that day
the city of Beirut, West Beirut. We were attacking all the area
which is south of Boulevard Masrah (?). We were attacking the
terrorist camps and headquarters, artillery and rocket launchers
units. That's first.
SHARON: I would not say -- I would not say that no one.
And altogether -- altogether -- altogether, I would say
weare sorry about every casualty. We are sorry. We, as Jews,
are sorry aboupt every casualty that anybody suffered. Even if
they were enemies.
DONALDSON: But did you do it with authorization, sir?
SHARON: I'd like to answer. You asked a question. I
would like to answer.
Second, I'll be very glad if you will be able -- we
can't do it today -- if you will be able to give me even one
example of not obeying orders through all my military service, if
you will be able -- I can assure you you are going to fail.
Third, every action in the war, from the first-day of
the war to the last day of bombing of West Beirut, or the
terrorist camps in the southern part of West Beirut, were as a
result of Cabinet decisions. And that's exactly what has been
done. Not more than that.
DONALDSON: So they had authorized that bombing.
SHARON: It was a Cabinet decision. Israel is a
democracy. And you know that, that Israel is a democracy.
WILL: Mr. Minister, another...
SHARON: And a real democracy.
WILL: Another war leader of a democracy, Winston
Churchill, said, "In victory, magnanimity."
The United States is looking for another Sadat -- that
is, someone who will kick over the traces and do something
unexpected. Given that you have, as you now say -- rightly, I
think -- made substantial gains in weakening the PLO, both
militarily and politically, does this not buy Israel a margin for
maneuver, and is there not something magnanimous with regard to
the West Bank, perhaps a territorial settlement, not as
security-conscious as Alon had in mind...
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21
BRINKLEY: We have time only for a very short answer,
Mr. Minister. Our time is about up.
SHARON: And the problem's complicated.
BRINKLEY: Yes.
SHARON: But I'll [unintelligible] be short.
We are looking to a solution. And we offered a
solution, I think the only realistic one. That is the autonomy
plan. We have to start negotiating. And I'm sure that we will
find a way for peaceful coexistence.
BRINKLEY: Thank you very much.
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