TRANSCRIPT ON CENTRAL AMERICA

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP86M00886R001200340008-7
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 33
• Document Creation Date: December 21, 2016
• Document Release Date: December 10, 2008
• Sequence Number: 8
• Publication Date: June 7, 1984
• Content Type: MEMO

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SUSPENSE
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June 7, 1984
MEMORANDUM FOR WILLIAM J. CASEY, DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL
INTELLIGENCE
FROM: FAITH R. WHITTLESEY, ASSISTANT TOITHE
PRESIDENT FOR PUBLIC LIAISON -7,,-5~ O'
SUBJECT: Transcript on Central. America
Executive R^gistry
Please find enclosed a transcript of a briefing held on
May 4th by our Outreach Working Group on Central
America. The subject of the briefing was "Religious
Persecution in Nicaragua," and one of the four eye
witnesses from Nicaragua was a Sandinista torture
victim. This document contains. extremely dramatic and
moving evidence of the nature of the Sandinista regime.
We are making every effort to circulate it widely.
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THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
May 4, 1984
OUTREACH WORKING GROUP ON CENTRAL AMERICA
"RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN NICARAGUA"
FAITH RYAN WHITTLESEY
ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT
FOR PUBLIC LIAISON
CHAIRMAN
9:30 - 12:00 P.M., Room 450 OEOB
A G E N D A
I. Introductory Remarks:
Faith Ryan Whittlesey
Assistant to the President
.for Public Liaison
II. Geraldine O'Leary Macias
Former Maryknoll Nun
III. Prudencio de Jesus Baltodano
Pentecostal Preacher, Farmer,
Victim of Sandinista Torture
IV. Wycliffe Diego
Co-Founder of ALPROMISU
Political Coordinator of MISURA
V. Humberto Belli
Former Editorial Page Editor of La Prensa
Founder of the Puebla Institute
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MRS. FAITH RYAN WHITTLESEY: On behalf of the President, we welcome
you to this White House complex and the 53rd meeting of our White
House Outreach Working Group on Central America. We have been
having these meetings for almost a year to provide more information
to the American people about the President's policies in Central
America and the facts upon which those policies are based. The
subject of the meeting for today is religious persecution in
Nicaragua, and we have a group of eyewitnesses who will speak to us
on that subject.
History has shown its that Communist regimes inevitably seek to
either eradicate the Church or to subvert it. Ideologically the
Church's existence is repugnant to them. Allegiance to God pre-
vents total allegiance to and subjugation by the state, which
according to Marx, is the vehicle for the secular transformation of
man into God. The communists cannot tolerate this limitation on
their absolute power. Thus, in the Soviet Union all but a tiny
percentage of churches have been closed and religious affiliation
routinely brings the loss of precious privileges and sometimes
brings more serious persecution.
In Nicaragua, the self-admitted Marxist-Leninist leaders of
the government are following the same path. Any traveler will tell
you it is difficult to choose a route without having a destination
in mind. For the Marxist-Leninist leaders of Nicaragua the
destination has been clear since their training days in Cuba. They
desire a totalitarian state in which no organization will challenge
their supreme authority.
Standing in the way of this goal are the deep-seated religious
convictions of the Nicaraguan people. Since they cannot simply
outlaw the churches without sacrificing what international support
still exists for their revolution, the Sandinista leadership is
following a two-track policy of persecution and subversion.
A Sandinista document, called the "72-hour Document", outlined
the strategy to be used as the regime consolidated its power. That
document was published by the regime in October of 1979,. and it
stated that the Catholic Church was to be treated cordially and I
quote: "Following a cautious policy designed to neutralize conser-
vative elements, develop close ties to sympathetic elements, and
stimulate the revolutionary sectors." Protestants, they said, and
I quote,."have to be watched closely, restricted, and expelled if
detected in any untoward acts."
In the intervening four and a half years, the-Sandinistas have
been true to their word. Believers have been harassed, arrested,
and even tortured. This violates not only international standards
of decency and behavior,. but the Sandinistas' owr law. Article 19
of the Statute on the Rights and Guarantees of N caraguans provides
,that..."Even in cases of emergency"...freedom o'. thought and
.religion cannot be suspended. But this is, unf.rtunately, equiva-
lent to the guarantees of religious freedom is the Soviet
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constitution, which through its Marxist prism translates into
persecution and suppression.
Today, as you have seen on your program, we have four eye-
witnesses to religious persecution in Nicaragua. We are grateful
to have members of the media here because this story has gone
largely unreported. I need only refer to the Good Friday demon-
stration of 100,000 people in Managua against the Sandinista
regime. The people were chanting, "We are Christians not Marxists"
and "Free Nicaragua". This dramatic event was reported only by
ABC's Peter Collins and his narrative is available for you on the
table.
.No other network touched the story. No wire service, news
photos, no print media stories appeared. Also, in Nicaragua on
Easter Sunday the Roman Catholic bishops issued a pastoral letter-
--a copy of which appears in your folder -- decrying what they
characterized as materialistic ideology. Tomas Borge, the
Sandinista's interior minister, responded by calling that pastoral
letter a criminal act; indeed worse than anything Jeane Kirkpatrick
has done...(A copy of the pastoral letter is in your folder also.)
You will, I hope, read carefully, that which I mentioned is in
your packets. We have also included in your packets a copy of the
White House Digest, which is material we provide for interested
people who attend our Outreach meetings, and the two that I have
included in this packet are entitled, "Persecution of Religious
Groups in Nicaragua" and "The Nicaragua Repression of the Native
Miskito Indians".
You will also find in your packets an interview with Miguel
Bolanos, who is a Sandinista defector, on the subversion and the
tactics of that subversion of the Church of Nicaragua.
Our program will begin with each of these speakers giving a
short 15 minute presentation and then we will open the floor for
your questions. I will moderate and for those speakers who need
interpreters, Stephanie Von Rickensburg, who is on your right, and
Donald Barnes, who is here from the State Department on your left
will translate for Mr. Diego and Mr. Baltodano.
The first speaker is Mrs. Geraldine O'Leary Macias. Mrs.
Macias was born in Minnesota. She joined the Maryknoll Order in
the United States in 1964. As a Maryknoll nun she went to work in
Central America in 1969 and served in Panama for 3 years before
going to Nicaragua in 1973. After leaving the Maryknoll order,
which she did with the permission of the Church, Mrs. Macias
remained in Nicaragua and went to work for Protestant social
services.. In 1974 she married Edgard Macias, who later became Vice
Minister of Labor for the Sandinista regime. When she and her
husband became the subject of an intensive defamation-campaign by
the Sandinistas and received death threats, they fled Nicaragua for
the United States.
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Mrs. Macias has recently contributed a chapter to Ethics and
Public Policy Center's just-released book, Crisis and Opportunity:
United States Policy in Central America. And I would also point out
to you that Mrs. Macias has written this book of essays called,
"Only Another Tyranny", which is available for any of you who may
be interested if you contact Mrs. Macias. Geraldine, Welcome to
our White House Outreach group...
GERALDINE MACIAS: Thank you. I think she gave you a lot of facts
about where I came from or what"I was in the last, say 15 years; as
a a Maryknoll sister, and then working for Protestant Social
Services.
. But I'd like to talk today about what I am now, and first of
all I am a refugee; one of the thousands who have left Nicaragua in
the last four years. My husband is a Nicaraguan. I have watched
him in 'the last year and a half lose contact with his family, his.
elderly parents; struggle with the English language, which he never
planned to learn before; send in resumes--hundreds of times and be
refused because he cannot speak English.
I have watched him lose his culture, lose contact with his
language and suffer the fact of being a political refugee, and
basically it's because he's two things.: A Christian and a
politician. Now, specifically we left Nicaragua in '82 because, of
course, there were these threats to eliminate my husband. We were
informed of this by a. security policeman and also informed shortly
after that by a friend of curs who saw the arrest crder.
Ironically though, this was confirmed for us here in the
United States by the security policeman who organized the whole
campaign against us. I don't-think it's too many times that
someone who is set up for elimination and meets the person who set
him up and. receives his apology. This happened to us when Miguel
Bolanos informed us that he was told to do this elimination campaign
and the security police to watch our house, to put in the media
lies about my husband. Miguel Bolanos came to apologize.
Now that was the first reason why we left. The second reason,
I think, pertains to you people. Because my husband had been
arrested under Somoza and had received death threats under Somoza
also -- so many people have said to us: "Why under Somcza would he
stay in the country and under the Sandinistas would he leave?" And
he said: "That belongs to the churches and human rights groups in
the world to answer. Because under Somoza I felt that if I went to
jail there would be an international clamor. If I died, I would
die as a martyr. At least something would be left to my children.
But in 1982, when I received death threats and there was an arrest
order to me, I felt sure that if I was put in prison, international
groups would not clamor for my release, international groups would
not protest against the Sandinistas. These groups that had been so
supportive against Somoza now are silent or covering up for the
Sandinista government. Therefore, I felt, 'Why die and have my
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children be told that I was a counter-revolutionary?' It would be
better to be alive and struggling from outside."
When you talk about the FSLN and the Sandinistas, I would like
to make it clear that there are lots of Sandinistas who are not
FSLN, The Sandinista Liberation Front. The original Sandinista
coalition was more than 20 groups, amongst which were labor union
congresses, labor union groups, community groups, and political
parties.
The FSLN made it 'impossible for any group to use the word
Sandinista shortly after revolution, because they wanted to identify
themselves as the revolution. I do not agree. There were too many
of us that spent years -- .people.like my husband -- other people
who spent even longer than him fighting against the Somoza
government; seeking change for Nicaragua, who could consider
themselves Sandinista revolutionaries and they were never Marxists,
nor members of the FSLN.
Today, there are people leaving Nicaragua. People like
ourselves who are forced to leave -- people who see the only choice
is either to be silent or to leave their country. I have had the
privilege of translating for some of these people here in this area
and also in the Midwest, where I am from, and the tragedy I find
for many of them are from 18 to 25 year olds.
These are young people who are leaving their country because
they have been members of the Sandinista Army and do not want to
continue. And they do not want to continue because indoctrination
is only Marxist-Leninist and is very anti-church. Others are
leaving because of the Conscription Law--they have no choice. I
find it very ironic that groups here in the United States that
support pacifism do not support it in Nicaragua.
These people are leaving in droves, coming to the United
States, many times without their families and trying to survive
here. My own experience is that it's very difficult to get help
not only from church groups and the same human rights groups many
times have told us that they wouldn't help Nicaragua refugees
because they are coming from a "progressive" government and there
is no reason to leave. Others have told me that the FSLN doesn't
kill people. Well, it's very hard to bring the bodies up here to
show them. Fortunately, we have a few people like -Prudencio, who
survived'the attempt to murder him.
Also, many people look at Nicaragua and talk about popular
support. Well, when I was still there in '82, and I was director
of a small private organization, I weekly had people coming to me,
wanting to leave their government positions to work for me in any
way at all--as a chauffeur, as a secretary--because they were being
forced to belong to the militias and the militias were being sent
to the frontiers to do the fighting while the Sandinista Army was
being kept in the quartels.
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These people told me that the militia training was very
inadequate, that they weren't given sufficient arms when they went
to the borders, and they weren't given sufficient arms when they
went to the borders, and they weren't convinced about that they
were fighting for. To me there has been a slaughter of
Nicaraguans; people forced to go and defend the Sandinista
political party as the bishops have said in the pastoral letters.
People going into the militias and armies are not defending
Nicaragua, they are defending a Marxist-Leninist party. Not only
that, many of them find out that the persons in"charge of their
units are foreigners. Many times Cubans. And the Cubans have
taken over, not only the many forces fighting (especially in the
South), but also the security police and even the community organi-
zations. There is a lot of protest in Nicaragua, a lot of unrest.
I think most of you are aware of the group called ARDE/MISURA.
in the South of Nicaragua, which in May of 1983 had 500 people when
they first started to fight. In December of last year they had
8,600, and the latest report is they are growing to 10,000 Ly the
end of next month. Why are all these people joining to fight
against the Sandinistas if they are popular government? There has.
been repression, there has been persecution, mostly against the
politicians to begin with, then gradually against the church people
and, I look at the people who deny this as being very short-sighted
and ostriches with their heads in the sand.
Eventually, it will get to all of them who try to be outspoken,
who try to defend human rights in Nicaragua. I find that our best
friends are the Central American countries around us: Costa Rica,
Honduras,. Panama, El Salvador; they understand that the problem is
not just of those Nicaraguans and after 10 years there, my children
were born there, I feel at least half Nicaraguan.
The problem is Central America. Because Nicaragua has
destroyed, has betrayed a revolution--has destroyed and betrayed
the hopes of many people that were giving their lives, risking
their lives for fundamental change. The Sandinistas have made
'revolution' a bad word, when for us it was originally a very good
concept. And they have threatened our neighboring countries;
threatened the neighboring citizens with violence, with terrorism,
and attempts in other countries to impose Marxism-Leninism as they
have done in Nicaragua.
Once again, I'd like to say one of the reasons we are here is
because there was no one outside to give us the protection of
protests, when my husband was threatened with arrest. There is no
one outside yet for many people who will say to you if you are
still in Nicaragua--"if you speak out, we will support you. If you
take a risk, we're there to defend you." And as long as there's
not international pressure on Nicaragua, we have to keep on leaving
and you have to keep on supporting us. Thank you.
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MRS. WHITTLESEY: Thank you, Geraldine.
Persecution of Protestant groups has been even more direct and
brutal because of their smaller size. They have been more vulnerable
to these kinds of attacks. We have with us today Prudencio
Baltodano. Mr. Baltodano was a Pentacostal preacher and farmer in
El Tendido near the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua. He is a witness
to the repression in his homeland and has suffered himself from
Sandinista torture.
He now lives in Costa Rica and is in Washington taking his
case to the Congress, the Organization of American States, and the
American. People. Mr. Baltodano's story for us today will be
interpreted by the lady from the State Department'who has kindly
consented to help. A copy of Mr. Baltodano's testimony is also in
your packets. I neglected to mention that.
PRUDENCIO BALTODANO: I would like to greet you all in the name of
Christ Jesus. And in the hope that Christ Jesus will bring hope to
the people of Nicaragua and to the world. Because Christ is the
only one who can do that--who can bring peace to the world and I
would like to invite all believers to work for peace in Nicaragua
and in the world.
I guess a lot of you know me. ? I'm getting to be pretty well
known in Washington, but for all of those who don't know me yet,
here I am.
This is what happened to me. This is my case: I was at home
with my wife and with my children. In.the place where I live is
called El Tendido Punta Gorda, in the province of Southern Zelaya.
One morning at the beginning of February, I was surprised by
witnessing a combat in this area between Sandinista troops and a
group who turned out to be from ARDE.
This was such a harsh combat that we had the impression that
the mountains were falling in on us. So we decided we would have
to leave home and we went into the mountains, about 2 kilometers.
We spent that day, that night and the next day in the mountains and
about 2 p.m. in the next afternoon, we were surprised by the
gunfire from the Sandinista forces. We were-immediately. tied.
--bound by the Sandinista. When I say 'we'-, what I mean is .I was
accompanied by one other. man, Christanto Jaime. When we fled, we
were joined by some neighbors. There were about 40 women and
children, but just one other man and myself.
One of the ladies that was caught started to cry and the
soldiers said: "What are you crying about?" And she said, "I
know that the soldiers are going to kill my son." The soldier
said: "No, we are no bad people. It is the Contras who are the
bad ones."
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At that time the soldiers told the women to go home and not to
worry and they went back down across the river. They took us to
the third farm. We crossed through two farms and came to the third
one belonging to a man named Miguel Fernandez. They took us to a
little opening and told us to take off our clothes. They took off
our clothes and replaced our own clothes with military clothes. At
that point they began to knock us to the ground and began hitting
us to different parts of our bodies until we were practically
unconscious.-
Then the soldiers' asked us: "have you ever seen the famc.us
Sombreristas - the Little Hats?" We said that we have never heard
of the "Little Hats" and this group of soldiers said: "Well, for
your information vie are those famous "Little hats."
Then they began asking us questions -- "What is your name?"
My friend said: "My name is Chrisanto Jaime." and they said:
"What is your name and I said Prudencio Baltodano," and the
soldiers said: "Oh, you're the one.". He said to me that I was on
their list. "You are an evangelical pastor, preacher. You are one
of the ones that go around convincing the peasants to join the
Contras."
This was an accusation that was not based in fact, not true.
I was not trying to convince anyone to join with the Contras. The
only kind of conquest that I was attempting to make was to conquer
people to convince them to come over to God and Christ an certainly
not over to the Contras. The soldiers said to me: "Pastors and
preachers are our enemies. We do not believe in God. In case
you're interested, and for your information, we are Comwnunist."
Then he introduced me to one of his colleagues and said: "This is
God."
Then he said to me: "Start to pray and see if your God will
save you." Then he ordered another soldier to take me up to a
hill, They took me into a wooded area about 10 meters (30 feet)
away. One guy said to another: "Tie him up." So they tied my hands
behind my back to a tree. When the one had finished tying my sands
to the tree, he hit me with the butt of his weapon. Still I have
the scar over here.
Then he took .a bayonet out of his belt and he hit rae in the
jaw with it. The soldier tried to put the bayonet on the end of
his rifle, but he was not able to get it in, so he threw the rifle
down and took the bayonet, took me by-the hair and cut one ear off
and then the other, as you can see. The one that had been doing
this said to one of his colleagues: "Shall I go ahead and shoot
him'-" The other one said: "No, it's not worth wasting a bullet on
a so-and-so like that. Let him die suffering. Anyway, it won't
take him. long to bleed to death. That's because I cut h i s _; ucTu la r
vein." J
It was at that point that I fainted and did-'t hear anymore
voices or anything else.. That was sort c, t`:t end ci it because
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although I was feeling a great deal of pain at that point, I
fainted and didn't feel anything. This all happened around 3 in
the afternoon. When I recovered consciousness, it was about 5 pm.
I was still at the same tree and there was a puddle of coagulated
blood there. I began to try to move and try to see if I could get
loose, as I was of course still tied to the tree. And with God's
help I was able to loose those bonds. I walked a bit; I saw a
truck and I changed my mind and went back to the jungle, the woods.
I walked through one night and the next day and I fainted again.
It was then I realized I had worms both in my ear and in the
wound I had in my forehead. Then the next day I started out very
early and finally got back -- walking from 5 in the morning to 4
that afternoon. I finally reached the property of the man named
Chrisanto Jaime. I found him there in his garden. He took care of
my wound, treated the worms, the infection in both my ear and
forehead. At that point two men came along looking for a family
who turned out to be member of ARDE. Upon seeing me there they
said: "What are you doing? How can you stay there without any
treatment -- you will die. Let us take you to where you can be
helped." I said that I couldn't; that if I would walk, I would
faint.
As I think you can all realize, this is not an isolated case.
This is one of many which has occurred in Nicaragua and even in
this same area of mine, El Tendido.. I know of one case of a man
named Miguel Flores who was a pastor of the Central American
Evangelical Mission. I worked with him as the first deacon of his
church. He was taken, tied up, his nose cut off, his eyes put out,
his face was cut up, his ears were cut off, and he was tied and
shackled.
This was not the only case. More people have died. Mostly
me, although there were some women. There was a total of 59 in
all.
Going back to when I was being helped by the people from ARDE,
they said that they would give me a day to see. if I felt any
better. They came back the next day and took me out to a place
called La Gloria. They told me that my family had been evacuated
from El Tendido also and taken to La Gloria. In Tendido all the
houses were burned, they were all reduced to ashes by the
Sandinistas.
From La Gloria we walked to the San Juan river. This took 14
days of walking through the jungle. There, at the San Juan river,
there were some reporters from Costa Rica -- San Jose, interviewed
me and some doctors arrived and took me to San Jose, Costa Rica.
Those doctors asked me whether I could go to the United States to
testify and I said yes I would be willing. I had made a promist to
God to testify before God and man to what had happened to me.
THANK YOU.
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MRS. WHITTLESEY: Thank you Mr. Baltodano and also Stephanie Von
Rickensburg for the excellent translation.
The East Coast region of Nicaragua has long been physically,
historically, and culturally isolated from the country's mainstream.
The population is primarily Indian, mostly Miskito, and Black.
These groups are traditionally religious -- Moravian, Roman
Catholic, and Church of God. Conservative in manner and keenly
proud of their ethnic uniqueness. They were allowed relative
autonomy even under former Nicaraguan dictator, Anastasio Somoza.
Despite Miskito support for the Sandinistas against Somoza,
the Nicaraguan government in 1979 embarked on a program to, as they
call it, rescue the Atlantic Coast. Cuban and Nicaraguan personnel
began to flood into the area. The net effect of this program,
according to the human rights group, Freedom House, is to:
"Deprive them of their social and cultural identity,, and identity
based on a communal lifestyle, a democratically based selection of
leadership, and a passable way of lifer centered on their churches."
Almost immediately the Indians' long cherished autonomy began
to fade away. Their traditional and freely elected leaders were
replaced with Sandinista appointed authorities. MANY WERE Cuban,
most were strangers. The lives of the Indians were redrawn along
Marxist lines.
From the outset, the triumphant Sandinistas experienced
difficulties bringing the Indians under their domination Demon-
strations, some turning violent, broke out along the East Coast as
Indians and Blacks protested the presence of Cuban security force
advisors and teachers in 1980.
Beginning in 1981, thousands of Indians were evacuated from
communities in an attempt to move the entire Indian population to
areas under close governmental control. The reason given for this
was the danger of attacks by anti-Sandinista forces; however, the
evacuations began before Contra activity along the border with
Honduras began in earnest.
Briefly stated, the Sandinistas have implemented a policy of
Indian ethnocide. One-fourth of the coast's 165,000 Indians are
either in relocation camps or refugee camps. One-half of Miskito
and Sumo villages have been destroyed.
One thousand Indian civilians are in prison, missing, or dead.
Indian rights to self-government, land and resources have been
abolished. Subsistence cultivation -- fishing and hunting -- are
strictly controlled to the point of non-ex'_stence in many areas and
access to staple foods are so limited that hunger is an everyday
problem and starvation a real possibility.
Many. villages have had no medicine or doctors for over two
years. Freedom of movement is denied or severely restricted, and
in many areas, canoes, the people's major means of transport, have
been confiscated or their use prohibited.
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More than 35 communities have suffered massive Sandinista
military invasions, during which innocent civilians are subjected
to arbitrary arrests, killings, interrogations, tortures, rapes,
theft, and destruction of property. The Sandinistas tried to force
the people to divulge the location of the Indian secret base camps
and to terrorize the villagers so.that they.will not support or
join the military resistance.
The Miskitos have not accepted this situation. And with us
this morning we have one of the leaders of the Indian group,
Wycliffe Diego. He is co-founder of Alpromiso, an Indian
organization formed in 1973 to protect Indian autonomy and tribal
land from the Somoza regime. After the Sandinistas came to power,
he coordinated Misurasata, a creation of the Sandinista government
to foster cooperation between the Indians and the regime.
Mr. Diego is now the coordinator of the political commission
of Misura, an organization comprising the Miskito, Suma, and Rama
Indian tribes in opposition to the Sandinista. regime. Will you
kindly welcome to our podium today, Mr. Wycliffe Diego. Mr. Diego
will be assisted by Donald Barnes from the State Department.
MR. DIEGO: First of all, I would like to greet all of you on
behalf of our organization of the Miskitos, Sumos, and Ramas and
Drumans. At the present time, this current junction of world
history -- not enough is known about the Communist system throughout
the world. It's not something that would surprise you, but we're
always trying to bring out more information about this problem of
Communists in Nicaragua.
The Moravian church came into Nicaragua on the 17th of March
in 1849. Sixty percent of the Moravian church population was
composed of Miskito., Blacks, Ramas, and Sumos Indians. Twenty-
five percent of this same population are Roman Catholic. The rest
belong either to the Church of God or are Baptists, Anglicans,
Adventists, or belong to some other denomination.
When the Moravian missionaries came to Nicaragua in 1849, they
came bearing the Word of God, bearing the message to the people --
the message of love. They not only brought with them the Word of
God, but they also brought with them the means of educating the
people and medical care. The roots of the Moravian church are in
Germany.
The father was called Juan Busch. The Moravian church has
been in existence for over 500 years. In 1937, the Moravian church
in Nicaragua built a Bible Institute in Bilwaskarma and several
pastors graduated from the Institute. And the total number of
pastors that the Moravian church has in my country is 127. The
Moravian church has a total of 128 individual churches along the
Atlantic coast.
They had two large schools, one in Bluefields and one in
Puerto Cabezas. They built two large hospitals, one in Puerto
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Cabezas and one in Bilwaskarma. They also built several small
clinics, smaller communities. In 1964, Tomas Borge came into the
Rio Coco area; he went into the Moravian church in Raiti. He came
in like a sheep, speaking well of church work, and the Indians
believed the word spoken by Tomas Borge. And in the beginning of
1964 the Indians gave their support to the revolution.
Because the Indians have been suffering for several years,
under the oppression. of the government of Nicaragua, and the
Indians have been awaiting a vision to attain progress in the
future. But then after the 1979 revolution, for the first two
months, the representatives of the Sandinista government worked
hand in hand with the Indians.
In 1981, The Sandinistas burned 5,000 dwellings in Rio Coco,
and 69 communities. They burned 57 churches. They are at the
present time using several of these churches as local headquarters..
The Bilwaskarma, which is such a?large institute, is now a
barracks. The same thing happened with the rest of the churches.
They killed 3 Moravian pastors, Olfilario Yutan, Mario Peralta, and
Pudi Simons. They arrested eight pastors: Maurice Vidaurr, Efrain
Omier, Santos Cleban, Yurintin Toledo, Sanalio Patron, Abel Flores,
Serminio Nicho, Iginio Morazan, Pedro Bello, Angel Bello, Adrian
Pa~-_,uier, and Finida Nilson. In December of 1983, they announced
their famous amnesty, but this did not help these pastors at all.
They tortured them in several ways. And they also killed two Roman
Catholic pastors -- Roberto Peralta and Fernando Justiniano.
A total of twenty-six Moravian pastors have fled to Honduras
refugee camps. Among the twenty-six Miskitos and Sumos include:
Silvio Diaz, Mullins Tilleth, Genaro Bell, Nabuth Zacarias, Alberto
Frais, Arnaldo Pedro, Ignacio Macdeth, Celso Pere, Donald Peralta,
Milano Enriques, Daniel Gonzalez and Rodolfo Rivera.
There is a great deal of pressure on the Moravian church
pastors in Nicaragua. They are not really free to preach their
sermons as they would like. Because of the military control and
pressure, not only on the Moravian churches, but on the other
evangelical denominations, as well as the Catholic churches.
Starting six months ago, the pastors have to present their
sermons to the commadantes before they can deliver their sermons.
At the present. time, however, they have been allowed a certain
amount of freedom to preach the Gospel. Not only that, but in my
country, Nicaragua, the military exert great control over all of
the people, particularly in the area of Zelaya. The Indians are
not allowed to work their fields in the mountains to sow their
crops, they are not allowed to fish, they are not allowed to hunt,
and so on a daily basis we see young people and children and old
people dying of hunger.
This is not only happening in Nicaragua. This also happening
in the refugee camps in the Honduras and Costa Rica. And the
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children are dying daily because of hunger and lack of medicine.
At the present time, there are some 20,000 Miskito Indians that
have sought refuge in Honduras and another 6,000 or 7,000 in Costa
Rica.
And there are some 3,000 to 4,000 Indians that have either got
killed or otherwise disappeared. We have searched for them in the
jails and were not able to find them. At the present time, a large
number of them are in jail or in concentration camps located in
Nicaragua, in the Zelaya, and in the Pacific areas.
And so we appealed to a number of government organizations and
other organizations throughout the world that are devoted to the
defense of human rights, organizations that speak of human rights.
We said, "Where were you when the human rights of Indians are
concerned?"
In 1979, when the Sandinistas came to power, they promised the
countries throughout the world that they were going to defend and
protect human rights. But since the time that they have been in
power, they have been in constant violation of the human rights of
the Indians. And so we ask that these organizations provide us
with moral support because what will happen if they do not --
within ten or fifteen years, all of the Miskito, Suma and Rama
Indians will disappear from the face of the earth.
And that will be the fault of all of these organizations that
talk so much about human rights. Throughout the world now, we find
that people don't want to hear the voice of the Nicaraguan, to find
out what is going on in our country. This is the end of our
presentation, I will be happy to answer -- to try to answer -- any
questions you may have.
MRS WHITTLESEY: Thank you Mr.Diego and Mr. Barnes.
Our next speaker is Humberto Belli.. He is a former Marxist
and collaborator with the Sandinistas who became a convert to
Christianity in 1977. He was also editorial page Editor of La
Prensa, Nicaragua's only remaining independent newspaper.
He left Nicaragua in April of 1982, after the imposition of
total prior censorship by the Sandinista regime. Mr.. Belli has
established an educational center called La Puebla Institute, which
is formulating a Christian response to problems of social charge
and seeking to counter the so-called Liberation Theology. He is
the author of the recently-published book, Christians Under Fire.
For any of you who would like copies of this book, it is available
from Mr. Belli. Please join me in welcoming to this podium, this
morning, Humberto Belli..
"R. BELLI:
I want to begin with the last remarks that Mr. Diego
Made. He said that he was referring to the fact that many people
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in the world don't seem to care very much to what is going on in
Nicaragua, what is effecting the Nicaraguan Christians.
One of the most frustrating experiences for me, personally,
Was, that when I came to the United States, wishing to find a
sympathetic audience -- given that this is mostly a Christian
country I would find that especially among Christian groups,
sympathies were toward the Sandinistas, especially on some sectors
of the clergy.
This reminds me of a statement presented by a Cuban poet who
had spent 22 years of imprisonment in Castro's Cuba, Armando
Valladares. He said during those years: "with the purpose of
forcing us to abandon our religious beliefs and to demoralize us --
the Cuban Communist indoctrinators repeatedly used the statements
of support for Castro's revolution made by certain representatives
of'American Christian churches.
"Every time that a pamphlet was published in the United States
-- every time that a clergyman would write an article in support of
Fidel Castro's dictatorship, a translation would reach us and that
was worse for the Christian political prisoners than the beatings
or the hunger. While we waited for the embrace of solidarity from
our brothers in Christ, incomprehensively to us. those who were
embraced were our tormentors."
This is taking place again. If we review a good deal of the
Christian literature -- nowadays written in this country - we find
again that those who are being embraced are our tormentors of many
Nicaraguan Christians. The Nicaraguan Christians were victimized.
by these policies -- are not given a hearing -- they are portrayed
as conservatives, reactionaries, or perhaps as agents of the CIA,
just echoing the same accusations of the Sandinistas.
This concern was recently voiced by the bishops in Nicaragua,
in their speech, of the Holy Week. They said one, albeit a small
sector of our church, has abandoned ecclesiastical unity and has
surrendered to the tenets of a materialistic ideology. These
sectors sow confusion inside and outside Nicaragua through a
campaign extolling its own ideas and defaming the legitimate
pastors and the faithful who follow them.
Censorship of the media make it impossible to.clarify the
positions'and offer other points of view.
So there is an alliance, I would say, between the Sandinistas
and the so-called revolutionary Christians in Nicaragua, who are
those Christians who have embraced Marxist Liberation theology as
their new Gospel and some groups outside Nicaragua.
These revolutionary Christians in Nicaragua constantly
organize tours. They invite American visitors, they give them very
well-prepared tours around the country., they interview all the
members of this so-called People's Church of Revolutionary
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Christians, and they come back to the United States saying as I
heard a priest in Lansing, Michigan, that the kingdom of God had
arrived in Nicaragua.
I think that one of the best weapons of the Sandinistas to
legitimize- their repression on the Nicaraguan Christians has been
the complicity of these Christians around the world. .And I say,
that in the name of God, this has to stop. It is a sign against
truth and it is helping to oppress Christians who like these fellow
members have suffered either on their own flesh the brutality of
the Sandinista regime.
But is is a brutality about which no media -- very seldom
newspaper or newsmen want to talk about it. It is embarrassing to
talk about violation of human rights committed by left wing regimes.
It is very nice and it is encouraging, sophisticated and elegant to
talk about violations of human rights committed by the right, by
the Salvadorans and by the Guatemalans. But when it comes to
Nicaragua, there is silence or complicity. I just want to give you
two short statements from the Nicaraguan bishop, that were published,
although not openly published; they have no access to the media --
even the homilies and sermons of the bishop have to be censored in
order to be broadcasted.
However, just recently I read a letter by the Center of
Concern here in Washington, written'by a Jesuit priest claiming
that there was no religious persecution in Nicaragua. The bishops
don't have access to the mass media, they have to submit, as I
said, their sermons or homilies to censorship..
Moravian pastors have been arrested, Christian lay leaders are
being killed. It is true that you can go to Nicaragua and you can
go to Mass; you can buy a Bible on the street. But to say in that
fact that there is religious freedom, is not to be able to see the
typical religious persecution that Communists usually develop.
No Communist country acknowledged that it persecutes
Christians. When they do repress a Christian, they claim they are
doing it without political reasons. They keep some churches open,
but underneath they are developing policies aimed to undermine the
churches, to destroy the leadership of the churches, in order to
submit them to a state power -- and eventually eradicate religious
belief.
But getting back to the document of the bishops. The one was
published in November 9, by Monsignor Pedro Vilchez, the Bishop of
Jinotega in Northern Nicaragua. He sent a letter to a Sandinista
leader -- pointed out the following events: People in the country-
side escape just by knowing the Sandinistas or the Compas are
coming, for they are afraid of the tortures, the violations, and
the death for the "great crime" of attempting against the security
of the estate. Usually they sent to jail, members of our pastoral
teams -- a member of Catholic action.
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They also report the burning down of several chapels and
churches in the peasant areas. Mentioned how the Sandinistas had
been developing a net of spy networks, in order to keep track of
all Christian leaders, of all members of all denominations. Now
there is another letter also published by Monsignor Pablo Antonio
Vega, who is the President of Nicaraguan Bishops Conference, ... I
do not know if these people have any credibility or not -- before
the downfall of Somoza they were regarded as heroes by the.
Sandinistas. _
After the triumph of the revolution, when they kept denouncing
the violations of human rights, because they feel they used double
standards, they were blamed as reactionaries and enemies of the
people. Yet, I feel that nobody can question the credibility of
Monsignor Vega. And he says, when he refers to the murder of three
Christian leaders by the end of 1983 in Nicaragua.
The first is the case of Alphonso Galliano from the peasant
region of Las Pauas. He had been threatened with death on several
occasions, and then one day a group of burglars appeared in his
house. They didn't steal anything, but killed him. A few times
later, we saw this so-called burglar as a member of the Popular
militia going around. Another case -- the case of Daniel Sierra
Ocon.. He was captured, accused of anti-revolutionary activities,
something that was never proved. After saying that he was going to
be Fred, his wife was told that he committed suicide.
Another case: Yamilet Sequelra de Lorio. She was pressured
into becoming a member of the State Security by the Sandinistas.
She and her husband refused. Some days later their bodies were
found on the mountains nearby with clear signals of torture and
violent mutilations.
These are endless stories. The very sad aspect of this is the
fact that these stories are not known or the fact that so many
people don't want to listen to them. I thank you very much for
your attention, because you have listened to me.
QUESTIONS:
General Superintendent of the United States Pentacostal Church
International and Prudercio was one of our pastors. We've lost two
other churches -- we don't know what has happened to them. In this
persecution that has assailed, these two churches have been com-
pletely eradicated and we can't find any of them. This is the
first contact that we've had when we heard that Prudencio was here.
We would do anything t take care of his family, while he is here,
anything he wishes, or wants.
(Emotional embrace with Prudencio.) Let me give you this ...
MRS. WHITTLESEY: Thank you very much for being here and your
generous offer.
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MARLIN MADDOUX WITH INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN MEDIA: Mr. Belli, in
talking about the Liberation Theology, I would like to address a
question to Mrs. Macias. Do you, or some of the people you knew
the several years that you were involved in the revolution against
Somoza, I'm sure you discussed these issues quite a bit as the
years went by, I'm having some difficulty in understanding how
there might have been some compromises in faith -- in embracing
Liberation Theology -- while the revolution was embryonic -- and
then the turning of the revolution towards Marxism -- how could it
have come as a surprise? Was there an area somewhere that you made.
an intellectual compromise to embrace some areas and then realize
that you've made a mistake?
GERALDINE MACIAS: First of all, the FSLN, the Sandinista
Liberation Front, didn't become Marxist; it had been from its
origin -- always known to be a Marxist-Leninist group.
Church people, I don't think, study politics sufficiently. I
certainly don't think my training emphasized political analysis,
and so when you talk about Liberation Theology, that was presented
as some type of Bible Study -- emphasizing an option for the poor.
What happens, I think is that the Marxists realized that -- Fidel
Castro realized this a long time ago -- is that they can infiltrate
the churches or co-opt on what the churches are going; especially
by using the same language the church does -- they car. confuse
Christians very easily because Christians are not trained in
politics and also most Christians tend to feel that other people
have good intentions. So what happened in Nicaragua was two
things. some priests, especially the Cardenal brothers, obviously
became Marxist-Leninists (they are self-confessed Marxist-Leninists).
Others have come to the belief that somehow Marxist-Leninism
is somehow compatible with Christianity. That they have some of
the same long-term goals. But that does not mean that all of them
are that way.
You can't say that there is a certain number of people that
think that way, but there has been a consistent protest about the
basic difference between Marxist-Leninism and the Christianity.
There has been constant comments from Bishop Obando against Armed
Struggle as the only alternative against totalitarian Marxism.
There is a struggle going on as to what has happened. I think that
for one thing the Sandinista FSLN kept the arms and disarmed the
other groups and began to eliminate them systematically. After
say, a honeymoon period of a year or so. And church people don't
want to acknowledge that. I don't think that it's a theological
reason; it's very personal.
They got on a bandwagon in favor of revolution. They have
taken these young FSLN heroes as heroes and they don't want to
admit that they have made a mistake. My husband can say -- it was
a tactical error to align themselves in any way at all with the
FSI..N. I don't find the same humility amongst Christians in
Nicaragua.
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FATHER BOB BERRY: I'm a Dominica- ones= (or Theologian) . To
members of the panel, I am curious at you reported that there
were two Catholic priests killed, given the supposedly cordial
relationship that developed between the FSLN and the Catholic
Church. What were the circumstanc of their deaths, being this is
the first I've head'of this?
MR. DIEGO: The Miskito pastors -- Catholic pastors. They work in
small communities far from BluefieLds and Managua. And many people
don't know what's going on on the !?!oscuita coast. Even the pastors,
Reverends, and the Fathers themselves don't know. And I think it's
up to the Catholic priests to ihvestigate what's happening to their
pastors, their representatives. And apparently they don't know who
are Roberto Pilato and Fernando Justiniano. But they are Roman
Catholic pastors.
MRS. WHITTLESEY: Mr. Belli would also like to comment on that
question.
MR. BELLI: Father Berry, did you =ay that there are friendly
(cordial) relationships between the Catholics and the FSLN?
FATHER BERRY: The original policy statement said the Catholic
church was to be treated cordially.
MR. BELLI: I thought that he was _mzilying that there was friendly
relationships within the Catholic church and the FSLN, which is not
the case. I was surprised by that remark, but it was my
misunderstanding.
ROBERT REILLY: If I could refer tc what that original reference
was to the 72-hour document in which appearance of cordial
relations would be maintained by the FSL?N, while in fact, what they
would be doing is hurting the church.
FATHER RUEDA: My name is' Enrique Ueda; I am a Catholic priest. I
work in the diocese of Arlington, Virginia, and I was much moved by
Mr. Belli's reading of a poem by Armando Valladarez. About 4-5
years ago, when Mr. Valladarez was still in prison, I did go to the
United States Catholic Conference Looking for support in getting
Mr. Valladarez out of jail; at that time I was Vice-Chairman of the
Cuban Human Rights Commission and I am afraid that I was turned
down.
I have a question for Mr. Belli and Mrs. Macias: The United
States Catholic Conference and mar-: Catholic dioceses have units
who are supposed to be involved wi_:-L the promotion of human rights
and justice and peace. Have you received any support either by the
United States Catholic Conference from any Catholic dioceses
against the violations of human r_:hts and religious persecution of
the church in Nicaragua? Have yo;, detected any support for the
Nicaraguan bishops and the Nicarac-.:an Conference of Bishops as part
of the American hierarchy?
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18
MR. BELLI: I think that we have with us Mr. Tom Quigley who might
tell about the.-- if there is any known support here. I have met
with several bishops. Usually I have a very receptive meeting and
I have been pleased by their interest in learning about the
situation of Nicaragua. In all fairness it should be said that the
United States Bishops Conference -- the President of the United
States Bishops Conference -- Monsignor Roach (I am afraid I do not
pronounce it well) after the Sandinistas tried to villify Father
Carballo, the Assistant of the Archbishop of Managua presented him
naked on television, on all the Sandinista newspapers, saying that
he had been caught. in an affair with a woman, which happened to be
a setup. .
Monsignor Roach issued a very strong statement criticizing
this flagrant violation of human rights. But I really like to hear
more statements of this kind. When the Holy Father was heckled and
mobbed in Nicaragua there was a big silence in the United States
among most Christian groups both Catholic and Protestant and I
think that it is time to speak otherwise, those who refrain from
speaking up will lose all their credibility. Because the facts are
crystal clear today.
MRS. MACIAS: The answer is NO. There has been no interest, no
assistance,. no concern. It's just a blank area. It's very ironic,
I think, even more for myself than for my husband. My husband
worked for a private institute that was financed basically by
German Bishops and Canadian Bishops. All of my work was financed
by Catholic Relief and World Relief Methodist church groups. None
of them have ever asked either of us to give a talk or an explana-
tion of why we are now in the United States.
QUESTION: First, I want to thank Mrs. Whittlesey for bringing us
these Outreach programs to the public. My question is to Mrs.
Macias and to Mr. Belli. It is a known fact concerning a 29
million Catholics that we have been in a holocaust with the media
as anti-Catholicism in this country. Do you feel, Mrs. Macias,
that this anti-Catholicism by some of these groups in the United
States has been carried on to Nicaragua and to the other 23 Spanish
countries in order to destroy Christianity in those 23 countries
and the United States, as a Christian country, and how long since
you. were there, would you feel that this was infiltration coming
in?
MRS. MACIAS: I think it's definitely; Marxist-Leninism will
destroy-religion eventually because it prevents freedom of thought
and freedom of organization of any religion -- not just Catholicism.
But I think that what the Sandinistas have said themselves -- they
see that they have to do it cautiously because the Catholic church
i,s a major force in these countries.
So what they have attempted to-do is in many ways -- is
besides the attacks on certain religious leaders -- is to form what
they called the Revolutionary Church, which is a state-controlled
party-controlled church. I think we have to be aware of the fact
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19
that we aren't always going to find direct persecution'of the
church as much as formation of a parallel church that they can
manage and that to me is more dangerous in many ways than direct
persecution because people don't always acknowledge the danger of
that and what it really is.
It's been going on for a long time, since; basically, I've
been in Latin America since 1969, before that time Liberation
Theology was also being pushed -- which has a lot of Marxism in it
and people were forming Christians for Socialism and promoting
Liberation Theology in all the rest of this movement.
SARA MCQUENTIN (News Service) : I think it's time we tell you
people that the press have been trying for a year to get into these
White House Outreach meetings. We were trying to find out what
meetings were being held, trying to get a chance to attehd them and
cover them and we've been denied it until suddenly there is a
change. Thank God for the change. I am delighted.
(APPLAUSE)
We've never been allowed in here before.
MRS. WHITTLESEY: We're delighted that you are here and showing
interest. We have had the press invited to some meetings prior to
this and there has been a limited turnout.
MRS. WHITTLESEY: Sorry about that, but unfortunately the security
precautions are the way they are because of the condition our
country is in today.
ISRAEL VALDEZ: My name is Israel Valdez, and I have a question for
Mrs. Macias. At the very beginning you indicated that there were
some 20 groups that supported the Sandinistas.
MRS. MACIAS: Can I clarify that -- they didn't support the
Sandinistas, the Sandinistas were three of those groups. And they
were all considered Sandinistas in a very general sense.
MR.'VALDEZ: Were any of those groups Christian groups and what has
happened to the rest of them, where are they now?
MRS. MACIAS: Well of course the Social Christian Party, the
Popular-Social Christian Party were definitely Christian parties by
their names. My husband was president of the Popular-Social
Christian Party; he is now in exile. There is now a Social-
Christian Alliance in exile in Costa Rica. Many of their principal
leaders have left the country.
The activists within the country are no longer able to move
freely or be activists. They have been threatened, many of them
have been jailed. Also within that Alliance there were Christian
Sandinista Commandos, which were armed groups. Coming out of some
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of the Christian parties. They have all been disarmed
(immediately) and their command posts taken away
in July
1979.
Many of those people by 1981 had started to rearm
groups to fight against the present government.
and to
form
Amongst those .20 parties there were three that were FSLN
tendencies that split up. And there was another Marxist party
called the Socialist Party, and, of course, the Communist Party.
But all of those groups that were not FSLN have felt effects of
oppression, in fact, even one, the Milpas, which were a Marxist
Maoists were taken out of their houses one night and all were
killed. The newspaper was destroyed also-- taken away from them.
So there has been a constant oppression against anyone who is not
FSLN, especially against the persons who are not Marxists, but also
against Marxists who are not cf the line of the FSLN.
KAREN MCKAY (Committee for a Free Afghanistan): At an earlier
Outreach program the liquidation of the small Jewish community in
Nicaragua was documented here in this room, and there is indication
that a very strong PLO/Khoemeni/Iranian Involvement in Nicaragua.
Could some of your panelists address that facet of it?
MRS. WHITTLESEY: I don't think any of these particular panelists
would feel comfortable addressing that narrow subject at this time.
However, we do have information that we would be happy to provide
to you when we have another meeting on that subject again.
MRS. MACIAS: lt's just that most of us don't have much contact
with the PLO in Nicaragua because their contacts are with the FSLN,
but that goes way back. There was a Nicaraguan called Patricio
Arguello, who was killed several years ago in London airport
attempting to kidnap an airplane. He was trained by the PLO. I
also know personally many of them, people in the FSLN who were
trained in Libya and by the PLO overseas. So there is a long
historical contact with them, which is now much more open.
PATRICIO MUTIEL: I'm a Nicaraguan refugee, now working for the
Nicaraguan Development Council. My question is open to the panel
with regards to the religious context in which the other religious
groups are able to practice. For instance, I heard more about the
Christian groups -- they were repressed to practice in Nicaragua.
I remember in my early years, my childhood in Nicaragua, there were
other nationalities -- Jewish groups, Moslem practitioners and so
forth. Are they being allowed, are they being protected to
practice freely or are they part of the whole repression that you
are speaking of today?
MR. BELLI: I will say that repression against Christian groups is
very selective to some extent. Some groups are not harassed or
very little harassment. Others are very much so. It has been that
those communities or religious denominations, which are weaker or
which-are located in the most remote region of the country where
there is no press coverage -- they get the harshest kind of
repression.
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As it had been with the Moravians, and with some Protestant
groups, even in Managua in 1982. And the Jewish community is one
of the weak, small groups which was practically obliterated. They
had their synagogue taken over and most Jews were expelled from the
country. As a propaganda measure, recently the Sandinistas said
that the Jewish could practice their faith in Nicaragua, but there
were no longer Jews to do it.
However, I would say that there is no repression against those
sections of the Christian churches, both Protestant and Catholic,
who are fully Sandinistas, who support-the government as it is in
the case in all Communist regimes -- for instance in Czechoslovakia
where there are two churches: Let's say the Byzantaries group
which is a pro-state church, with the full support of the state and
then the Catholic church. And it is the Byzantaries church, the
one who has the access to the media, the one who can ordain
priests, etc.
And the same thing is developing in Nicaragua. The so-called
Reactionary Church, which is the non-Sandinista church, is the one
which insists it is self-deprived of the media, under harassment.
Where the other church -- the Revolutionary Church -- the
Sandinista one gets all the facilities.
MRS. WHITTLESEY: Is Mr. Jose Esteban Gonzalez here? I'm sure he
could respond to some of these questions, since Mr. Gonzalez is
also a Nicaraguan and was present at another briefing this week
that (on Wednesday, which took place, which was also opened to the
press). Mr. Gonzalez founded the Permanent Commission on Human
Rights in Nicaragua in April 1977. He served as its national
coordinator during both the Somoza and the Sandinista regime.
During the Somoza regime, Mr. Gonzalez defended leader, Tomas
Borge.
In August of 1978, the Sandinistas endorsed the commission as
the official Human Rights-Commission of Nicaragua. However, in May
of 1982,. Mr. Gonzalez was sentenced in absentia to 16 years in
jail,?2 years of forced labor, and 5 years of compulsory surveil-
lance. He presently lives in exile and heads a Nicaraguan
Committee on Human Rights based in Costa Rica. Mr. Gonzalez, would
you like to respond to that question?
MR. GONZALEZ: We don't have specific information about direct
persecution against the Jewish community in Nicaragua. We only
have the results of an attitude from the government. Their
synagogue in Managua was occupied by the Sandinistas and was handed
to a group of young activists of the Sandinistas and was all
painted with insults against the Jewish people and the Jewish
position. Also, there are practically no Jewish left in Nicaragua.
I.think that the Jewish, themselves, by their attitude and
practical position are responding to the question.
MR. REILLY: You might notice in the White House Digest (in your
packet) on the persecution of religious groups in Nicaragua there
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22
is reference to what has happened to the Jewish community there.
We also have separately available a White House Digest on the
relationship between the PLO and the Sandinistas, tracing it back
to the early 1970's when some of the Sandinistas fought with the
PLO in Jordan against King Hussein. If you would like a copy of
that, please contact our office afterwards.
DeBreis--Arlington, VA--minister of Assembly of God Church there, I
just wanted to ask one question. In regards to the current state
of the government there in Nicaragua as to whether there are any
forces or anyvoices of moderation inside the government there today
that are sitting there -and able to make some kind of sense out of
the madness which appears to be reigning in Nicaragua today? And
just to add on to that, could the very present be likened on to the
state of what it was like when Castro was coming to power in Cuba?
MRS. MACIAS: The principle voice that I respect in Nicaragua is of
Archbishop Obando. The Episcopal conference, which has from the
very beginning., tried a real balancing act even before
insurrection. Obando was very much trying to avoid armed conflict.
He consistently said that he was trying to avoid killing each
other and in his most recent pastoral letter, which asks foreign
negotiations to go on with the armed rebel groups is one more
attempt to avoid further bloodshed. So I have a great deal of
respect for Obando and what he says and his message of trying to
work for peaceful settlement. -
As far as what's happening there, I think you have to read
what the Sandinistas say they are and they have said in their
historical document when they were founded back in 1961, that they
are Marxist-Leninist, that they are anti-U.S. in their policies,
and their alignment with the Soviet bloc is very evident,
especially since 1980 onward.
You have to know what they are in order to deal with them and
in order to understand why we have problems with them and why we
can't stay in our own country to deal with them--you have to
understand who they are and what they say they are. Obardo under-
stands that, I think he knows. that they are not to be trusted, that
they've broken every agreement they've made internally or externally
since 1979, and that our biggest problem is with the FSLN, who is a
Marxist-Leninist concerned group and very, very difficult to
believe.
MR. BELLI: I think that the historic experience is that whenever a
moderate person has tried to promote a different position in the
Nicaraguan government he has been isolated, he has been accused cf
being pro-American, pro-Somozan, and anti-revolutionary. You have
a whole list of people of very distinguished reliable people. For
example Arturo Cruz, the ambassador for the Sandinistas here in the
United States; a member of the Junta, Mr. Ravelo, Mrs. Chamcrro,
several ambassadors of the Sandinistas in Geneva. For example,
Mrs. Pasquier who could quote 20-30 names. And I think that the
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best or the worst enemies of the Sandinistas are the people who are
not telling them the truth or the people who are backing the
present attitude, and. their best friends would be we, who are
trying to recall to them their original commitments, and also all
the governments in the democratic countries who are trying to help
the Nicaraguan people to find a path of democracy and peace (are
the best friend of the Sandinistas). In the fact that they are
rejected by the Sandinistas. They do not want any help.
NEXT QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)-------
..........something about the "media likes to dramatize" ...........
but in this case ......... (inaudible) .......... it's so in fashion to
criticize the government of El Salvador of every little thing that
happened. What can we do to animate the media to dramatize what is
really happening, what can we do?
MR. BELLI: Just two things have occurred to me: One would be that
it is very important people are well-informed about what is going
on in Nicaragua and in Central America. The other part is that I
think that it is necessary effort for Christians in the United
States who are concerned about what is going on and who knows the
truth to bombard their parishes, their bishops, their clergy, the
media with letters asking them to pronounce themselves in some
direction--or asking the media why they are not covering this on
such and such views--let their voice be heard. Correspondence may
be one of the means; maybe we can devise another.
DIEGO ABICH: I'm a director of "Of Human Rights". My question is
directed to Mr. Belli. During 1982 hearings were conducted on
religious persecution as a violation of human rights. You
testified during those hearings.
Now I noticed that U. S. Catholic Conference, Father Hehir and
Mr. Quigley testified during those hearings. Now Father Hehir said
that religious freedom is not only a basic human right, but it has
to be viewed in the context of the ability of the Church to
function in a social and corporate way. I was glad for your
testimony.
My question is this: I noticed that the conference treated
the human violations in Nicaragua very briefly. My question is
this: What can you do and what can we do to convince the U. S.
Catholic Conference here in the States that these violations exist
in Nicaragua? And the second question is:. Were you satisfied with
the average responses and their demonstration of human rights
violations of Nicaragua?
MR. BELLI: I did not get the last part.
MR. ABICH: Were you satisfied with the U. S. Catholic Conference
response on violations of human rights in Nicaragua and if not,
what can you do or what can we do to convince them that the Church
and the Christians and other religious groups in Nicaragua are-
suffering religious persecution?
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24
MR. BELLI: Well, as I said before, I was very satisfied when I
-heard about the statement from Monsignor Roach. I would say that I
artti waiting and praying that more support will be forthcoming from
the U.S. Catholic Bishops and from the U. S. Protestant groups,
where Christians are concerned. I do what I can -- I am writing.
I am publicizing this book reporting the original documentation
about violations of human rights. There might be some time for
people to begin to react. I think we should get the influx of
people and nation toward them.
ROBERT REILLY: I think I might mention just as a postscript to Mr.
Belli's answer that the White House has sent every Catholic bishop
in the country a copy of the White House Digest on persecution of
Christian groups in Nicaragua along with the interview with Miguel
Bolanos on subvertion of the Church. And the correspondence from
the bishops in response to that has so far been extremely favorable.
DON SHANNON--LOS ANGELES TIMES: One of the charges the Sandinistas
make most frequently and with some effect in this country is that
ARDE., of the counter-revolutionary force, dominated by ex-Somozan
national guard. How wide is that first perception? I noticed that
Mr. Diego had mentioned that he had been picked up by an ARDE
patrol. How wide is that perception among people in
INTERRUPTED BY MRS. MACIAS: You must have the groups mixed up.
It's the FDN that's accused of being....
MR. SHANNON: Oh, I'm sorry. ARDE is Eden Pastora. ARDE is
supposed to be okay.
(REACTION FROM THE GROUP)
MR. SHANNON CONTINUES: On the other side, how much of this is felt
by people in Nicaragua to be true. When the Sand?.nista government
says this, is this the generally support of the people inside the
country or how do they feel about it?
MR. GONZALEZ: I think that to keep the Somoza alive is very bad
service to the Sandinistas that they are doing to the Nicaraguan
country. Somoza is dead. Somocismo is not anymore possible from
the social or political viewpoint in Nicaragua. And I may say that
the main enemies of Somoza now are those who were Somozas before
because Somoza was such a failure that they do not want to hear
from him anymore.
If you want to find the Somocistas you go to the Sandinista
government and you go to Sandinista.Junta. You have a Sergio
Ramirez, who was a writer, who used to publish praise of Somoza in
well-known magazine in Nicaragua. You have to go and see their
curriculum of several of the ministers who were part of the most
hard capitalistic establishment in Nicaragua.
I may mention for example Joaquin Cuadra, who is the father of
a Comandante, the father-in-law of another Comandante--two Comandantes--
and who is a person who was responsible for the Economic
exploitation in Nicaragua. There the fight of the Nicaraguan
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people to be liberated has no relation whatsoever with any Somozian
interest.
DON SHANNON--CANNOT GET NAMES, LOCATIONS--(INAUDIBLE). I was
asking how successful is this inside the country? When the
Sandinista government says this--Is this a position which gets
public support?
MR. BELLI: The Sandinistas have an absolute control of the press
and of the media that really is misleading information that are
giving to the people. I also think that some of the very young
people react only the basis of that information. That's why part
of our work should be just to convey to them the correct
information through radio stations--for example from neighboring
countries.
MRS. MACIAS: Can I just say that as far as I know personally,
people who are in all of the groups that are fighting (Misura,
Misurasata, ARDE,) The majority of people are ex-Sandinistas in
some form. Ex-members of the Junta, ex-members of the cabinet or
ex-members of the government in some form. This tactic of the FSLN
is completely wrong if you see who is actually fighting against
them.
JOHN HVASTA: I am very involved with the Czech and Slovak
organizations and operations. And I've been involved in
Czechoslovakia during the late 1940's and '50's. As an American, I
spent 3h years in prison and escaped and was in hiding for a couple
of years. What we've heard is a similar situation that exists in
Eastern Europe (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland--all throughout
Eastern Europe).
The message is the same--the method is the same. We have now
a former Vice Counsel who was in Czechoslovakia, Claiborne Pell.
We've asked him and he has sponsored the hearing in the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee on violations of religious and human
rights, which will be held next month. I would suggest that you
probably do the same thing right now in Central America.
MARGE MITCHELL---Cuba Independent and Democratic: It's obvious
that this is a tragical situation and we don't have to dramatize
it. But the thing is, are we doing the correct thing? Are the
people really knowing what's going on nationwide. I don't want to
sound optimistic that the world is going to change tomorrow, but
obviously, (If -- a suggestion that I also want to make--) can the
people, Christian leaders, the people of United States, this
committee right here. Can everyone unite or go on the air some
time and say these are the facts, we want to make a big committee--
something has to be done--I'm talking kind of broad--but what
exactly is being done so far?
MRS. MACIFS: Well, I've been here a year and a half, and it's been
very slow trying to get people who are interested in listening.
Trying to get both versions in the media, and it gets more
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difficult as time goes on because the other version has been put
out so strongly, so consistently and so distortedly that many
groups that I talk to now are like cheerleaders who are just so
convinced that they've heard it all. I think it has to go on, I
think it's going to be a long struggle--hopefully not too long
since too many Nicaraguan are dying in the meantime. But people
like you coming to a meeting like this is the process.
MR. QUIGLEY: ------------ (inaudible) ------------ Just a word or two
about where U. S. Catholic Conference has been on the issues of
Nicaragua and indeed on Cuba. Part of the problem that this whole
presentation reflects is precisely what Mr. Gonzalez call, or the
lack of what he called, a sense of moderation, a sense of interpre-
tation, a sense of understanding, and not as Mrs. Macias said
"being a cheerleader".
USCC and many other church groups have spoken about human
rights for a long time, long before this White House, the previous
White House or the one before that--that's simply a fact. Human
rights, throughout the world, generally speaking, without regards
to the political orientation of the group committee violation of
human rights. There are certain criteria by which difference
churches address part of the world's human right question.
We look at Latin America. The USCC has for a long time.
We've looked at human rights violations of Cuba; we've done things
about them. Those who call for a crusade against the Castro
government by U. S. Bishops simply do not understand the reality of
the Cuban church. They don't understand the reality of how the
Episcopal Conference is related one to the other. The church here,
the Bishop's Conference, particularly does not simply lead a march,
regardless of other conditions or circumstances. We are in a
relationship with the Episcopal conference. We behaved the way
according to what that relationship tells us.
Nicaragua's case is similar. I was just offering the observa-
tion that the Guatemalan, Nicaragua situation -- violations of
human rights -- I think are not quite comparable. I think they are
far, far worse in Guatemala. Even as far as the churches are
concern.ed, religious groups are concerned. Thirteen Roman Catholic
priests, a number of Protestant ministers have been killed in
Guatemala in the last several years and the bishops there said
openly that there was a state of persecution.
Archbishop Obando and Archbishop Vega have not said that there
was a state of persecution of the Church in Nicaragua. They said
many things which would lead one to put together the pieces and
come up with that kind of a conclusion. But there is a difference
between the situations and the two countries. The USCC has spoken
more about conditions of violations of human rights in Nicaragua
than it has about Guatemala. Archbishop Roach's statement that
Humberto mentions is just one of those statements. After the Pope
visited in March 1984, (sic) there was a statement in the U. S..
Catholic Conference at that time.
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27
There have been numerous statements in Congressional
testimonies that Diego Abich has mentioned. The testimony dealt
with three specific test cases in El. Salvador, Chile and Brazil.
Three countries in which the USCC has had a long history of
involvement of the human rights. It did not deal with specifics
with Guatemala, with Nicaragua, with other countries of the
hemisphere. It was criticized for what it did not speak about, not
what it did speak about. Armondo Valladares (to finish the very
last point) when Enrique.Rueda came to see me a couple of years
ago, I-don't know how many
MR. QUIGLEY: it was indeed to request our assistance on the case
of Armondo Valladares. (I have totally forgotten that, I
apologize)
MR. QUIGLEY: But I will tell you that. the conference did act on
the case of Armando Valladares: The question is--the statement that
he came to ask for help, but it was to me that he asked the help
and he said to you, Sir, that he did not get the help--but I am
telling you that he did indeed,. whether it was directly in response
to his request we acted on the behalf of Armando Valladares.
MR.. B.ELLI: I think I should correct-something that he said.
Monsignor Obando has referred openly to the persecution of the
Church. in Nicaragua in explicit terms. He has said in his state-
ment to La Nacion, the Costa Rican newspaper, after about 26
churches were attacked by mobs in October 1983.
I think that Monsignor Vega said at the same time, although I
cannot quote him but I can quote Monsignor Obando, I have clipping
in my files. When he really.said that it was open persecution of
the Church in Nicaragua, so I wanted to make this correction.
Also, regarding the presentation for Congress, when Father Brian
Hehir made his presentation, if you compare what is said about
Nicaragua there and what was said about Brazil and Chile and the
other countries that you mentioned, you could really sense that the
wording and the context of the text referring to Nicaragua were
framed in much, much softer terms than in the other cases.
There was a reference to the vilification of religious leaders
in Nicaragua. On the case of Carballo, such a blatant case,
considered one case that perhaps a case involving bad faith,
possibly, leaving some sort of doubt. You will want to have heard
the important statement in which they could compare--I don't think
that there was a balance.
QUESTION, NAME AND LOCATION INAUDIBLE
ADRIANA GUILLEN: I want to follow up cn Humberto's--he said that
the church in Nicaragua has open persecution. Not only Monsignors,
Obando and Vega, but Mcnsignor Schlaefer here, when he came out
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d. V
with the Indians on December 1983, he said in Nicaragua there is
persecution of the Indians and of the Church. It has been very
clearly stated that there is bad persecution going on.
ENRIQUE RUEDA: I would just like to get the record straight: I
did not want to mention Tom's name for obvious reasons, but I did 5
years ago go to the USCC publicly and openly as a member of the
human rights commission for Cuba ask for help in trying to get
Armando Valladares out of jail. I was flatly.turned down when I
was asked for original signed copies of a request from all the
Cuban bishops asking that Valladares was let go, out of prison. I
thought that this was disingenuous and I was very ashamed of the
church.
MY NAME IS------. I am a Nicaraguan. I work for 5 years. very
long with Senor Juan. I was in Nicaragua in February 1983, with
the Catholic bishops. Our bishops of San Antonio, Senor Flores,
the Archbishop from Washington, and Father O'Malley--they,met with
Monsignor Obando. By that time, I was in charge with Father-
Carballo to deal with censorship of our advertising on the Catholic
radio station. We couldn't broadcast any kind of advertising
latent with the future visit of the Pope. I was in charge of doing
that with Father Carballo. We had to deal with (Names) of the
office of the Censorship and we told that to the Catholic Bishop.
I will tell you something--I've worked here very close with the
Hispanic community of the Catholic church, but I don't trust in the
commission of Catholic Conference of Catholic Bishops here.
I want to make this point. I know that I have some information and
maybe Geraldine or Humberto have a wealth of information regarding
the meeting in (more documentation) 1982-83, where I had met with
some people of the U.S. Conference. They went to Nicaragua to meet
with other people of the Nicaraguan Government to develop the
network in the U. S. Do you have some type of documentation on
this?
(INTERRUPTED)
MRS. MACIAS: Julio de Cortazar has written a book about that,
about forming an alliance of intellectuals to promote the
revolution. I just like to say that I get the feeling sometimes
when the U. S. Catholic Bishops Conference they are waiting for
last nail to be in the coffin then they will all mourn with us. I
feel that it's better to keep protesting while you're still alive.
QUESTIONS: First of all I think that these statements that have
gone back and forth this gentleman and those gentlemen should get
their heads together. Secondly, I know we're all aware that Pope
John has gone throughout the world and he has said that there is
interest in human being's lives--whether they are priests, human
beings--whatever country, he said they must be saved. And when one
of the gentlemen said that the Jewish element was weak, that's not
true.
We in this room know that the Jewish element and.the Catholic
element whenever present in a country it is because it has
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authority behind it, so naturally we must do away with those'.
But, what I'm interested in, is because I am an American Indian, is
to the gentlemen--what is happening to the Indian children--the
population that we know has been killed--what about that population
that has been growing because they are the citizens of tomorrow,.
what measures are being taken to make sure that that population
remains as the numbers increase?
WYCLIFFE DIEGO: I would like tc say that the outset, 80% of the
Indian population of our country (The U.S.) supported the
Sandinista revolution. As for me, I've visited several agencies in
the U. S. that deal with Indian affairs; and I'd like to say out of
all the peoples in the world that have suffered, the Indians have
suffered the most.
That happened in the U. S. when so many of the Indians were
killed--in Central America and South America throughout the
hemisphere. At the present time the white people who are coming
from Russia and other areas of the world, the bombs used to bomb
our communities are foreign bombs. In 1982, the Sumo Indian
children, 75 of them, were put on a helicopter as cargo, and they
were going to be taken to another area of the country. The
helicopter went down, and all of these children were killed. But
you don't hear anyone in the world talking about this.
Now at the present time, the Sandinistas are taking out 13 and
14 year old boys and sending them to the border as cannon fodder.
But the world is silent on this. And the Sandinistas have taken
away a lot of the Miskito children and Sumo away from their parents
and they're in an institution being taken care of by the
Sandinistas.
They are not allowed to corrnunicate with their parents. And
we try and tell this to the world, but nobody seems to want to
believe us.
At the present time, in concentration camps we have the
Miskito, Sumo and Rama Indian children dying at the rate of 15-20
per day. And every day in the refugee camps in the Honduras and
Mocoron and Costa Rica we have 12-13 of these children dying every
day. And if you can visit for example, the refugee camp in
Mocoron, you'd see these children are running around stark naked --
they have-no clothing at all.
The American Indians have told the Sandinistas not to do these
things. And we hope to continue to get the support of the American
Indians. And as for the Church that preaches peace and love, we
would like to ask you where is your love, because the world cannot
exist without love.
You can say all the pretty words that you wish, but without
love we cannot bring peace into the world. God says that he loves
you. And where is this love evidenced? There are many people in
this world who show more love and respect for a dog than they would
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for a human being. I think you have a law here in the United
States that if you kill a dog, you can go to jail... And I think
that in Nicaragua now we have to consider people are being treated
like dogs.
QUESTION FOR MRS. MACIAS: The statement you implicitly criticized
human right organizations for ignoring human right abuses that have
occurred under the Sandinista government -- your statement seemed
to indicate the ideological bias of some human rights organizations
has blinded them to deplore to those human rights violations that
you all testified to today. I want to know if I'm reading you
right, you seem to be saying that the fundamental rights of human
beings transcend any particular ideology and therefore should be
condemned wherever they occur, is that correct?
MRS. MACIAS: Yes, I think too many groups have a double standard.
If it's a rightist government they'll condemn it and if it's a
leftist government they cover up or they're soft in their
criticism.
QUESTION: With that in mind, and given the human rights records as
reported by the State Department Country Reports, by the
international Commission of Jurists and Amnesty International, I'd
like to know on that basis you refer-to the governments of
Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador as your best friends in Central
America?
MRS. MACIAS: They're the ones that are our friends because they're
the ones feeling the same problems we are as far as intervention
and domination by the Sandinistas, who have created for the first
time in history terrorism in Costa Rica, which is a very democratic
country, terrorism in Honduras for the first time in its history,
and terrorist groups in Guatemala, even in Columbia and Peru they
have claimed their terrorist acts from Nicaragua. These countries
are friends because they're facing the same problem we are, that
is: Marxist-Leninism, financed and trained terrorism.
MR. BELLI: I just. wanted to add on behalf of Geraldine that
Geraldine and her husband Edgard Macias, and Jose Esteban Gonzalez,
who is with us, they strongly and openly criticized the violation
of human rights committed by Somoza. So I think they cannot be
accused of playing a double standard. The emphasis now, since they
are victims, the victims of a specific operation, that might make
us sometimes over-emphasize what we are suffering; but in the
history of Nicaragua, they have played a very fair, they have
presented a very fair testimony of criticizing violatings when they
occur, whether they come from the right or from the left.
MRS. WHITTLESEY: Thank you, it is now 12 o'clock and we would like
to thank Mr. Baltodano, Mr. Belli, Mrs. Macias, and Mr. Wycliffe
Diego and also Mr. Gonzalez who joined our panel and Mr. Barnes and
Stephanie Von Rickensburg. Thank you all. .
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