NOTE TO HARRY FITZWATER FROM (Sanitized)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00890R000500110034-6
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 21
• Document Creation Date: December 14, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 10, 2003
• Sequence Number: 34
• Publication Date: May 13, 1981
• Content Type: NOTES

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 '~ FC` I Spa 3' ~3Sf` td %
Harry Fitzwater
DDA
7D18
Headquarters
Dear Harry:
13 May 1981
ry f
A note of thanks for your appearance
before the Interdirectorate Seminar at
Tuesday.
The members appreciated your will-
ingness to meet with them on such short
notice and so soon after assuming your
new position -- and above all your
candor and good humor.
It was a fruitful session, one of
the best we have had.
Deputy erector
Center for the Study
of Intelligence
P.S. I am attaching the rough text of
the F7 J interview.
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ILLEGIB
Ethical and Moral Standards
in Clandestine Intelligence Collection
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AN OUTSIDER"S VIEW OF THE DIRECTORATE OF OPERATIONS
AN OUTSIDER"S VIEW OF THE DIRECTORATE OF OPERATIONS
Interview with
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K. We're talking with
25th of July 1979. I think the first thing we want to know
is simply, Who isi
been doing here?
~nd what is it that you've
W. Well, to go back to the beginning, the president called
Admiral Turner in March of 1977. At that time I was a con-
sultant on the West Coast; I had previously worked for
Admiral Turner for about 10 years as a consultant. When
The President called Stan Turner back, I just happened to
be in Washington at the same time and so Stan met with the
President and that night I met with Stan. He got together with
his son, his daughter-in-law and myself in his hotel room and
he told us, "The President authorized me to tell my immediate
family of my new offer, so I'm telling you guys that I've been
asked to be the DCI."
We were very excited about that, and shortly thereafter
his son and daughter-in-law left, and Stan and I were alone.
At that point Stan got into the--tues-tinning that the President
had had; he told about the detailed conversation that he had
had with the President that day.
Stan said that the President had told him right off that
the first thing he wanted him to do was to insure that what
the intelligence organization was doing was proper, not from a
legalistic point of view: What does John Q. Public want out
of the intelligence community? And so Stan looked at me and
said,
I would like you to do this for me, because
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25X1
K. We're talking with
in his office on the 25th of July 1979.
I think the first thing we want to know is simply, Who isi d 25X1
what is it that you've been doing here?
W. ATo go back ode- the resident called t-~ Admiral
At that time
Turner in March Of 1977.I was a consultant on the
West Coast; I had previously worked for Admiral Turner for about 10 years
as a consultant. When the President called Stan Turner back, I just happened
to be in Washington at the same time and so Stan met with the President and
that night
1 met with Stan. he got together with his son, his daughter-
in-law and myself in his hotel room~sand he told us, "The pYesident authorized
me to tell my immediate family of my new offer, so I'm telling you guys that
I've been asked to be the maw DCI." ,We were very excIite
about that, and
shortly thereafter his son 1 and hsa.daughter-in-lawA and Stan and I were
alone. (At that point Stan got into the questio Fiat the President had had;
VO&
a he told4about the detailed conversation that he had-a with the President
that day,
Stan said that the President had told him right off that the
first thing he wanted him to d4as to insure that what the intelligence
organization was doing was proper, not from a legalistic point of view, but
from a citizen's point of view-' hat does John Q. Public want out of the
intelligence community: And so Stan looked at me and said,'Rust' A ould &c
you do this for me, because obviously I can't spend full time doing this.
I told Stan, simply, that if my kids would agree to move back here for
the 30th time I would be happy to do it. Tie-daughte-r-still living at
home 'Vt--~t-he-t4Me---';be-WaS-JJ--7and my kids said, "Well Dad, you've
always--told--us--te-ge-as__?far.as we can Al never truncate -ourselves. It looks
as i#_.you_d__be-calling--short -of your admonition to us if you didn't do this
tip-our---c-ountry. -So --I took it. So we moved back, and my daughter went-to-
Langley -+ti gh-- choo! ; and- we -took off-
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When I came on board, Stan took me into the morning staff meeting and
introduced me,-Md he told everyone there that I had the authority to ask any
question, to open any door, to go into any of the organizations that I wanted,
and that everyone was to cooperate freely.
There were to be no secrets held back from me whatsoever if I asked.
To make this thing more or less legal I was assigned to the Inspector General's
staffs = as-~ - ~'-c -Aril . So (jstarted STAT
?~ =o=
with the DD6. I didn't know how to do it. Here was an organization of
doing a
thousand different things--how does one, in ninety or one hundred twenty
days possibly determine whether that organization is doing what we the
public would be proud of or not? Well, it's the kind of thing I've done
all my life; after I quit industry, I was a consultant and I did these
kinds of things: "Hey, is this weapons system better than that one?" and
so forth. So I said to myself, let's go back to fundamentalsc., matt-STAT
just thinking
-~1~ela j- out loud, demonstration speaks louder
than words; if I could see what they were doing then I could judge the
individuals.I didn't know what an agent was; I kept getting
and agent, ALJ:
mixed up. You guys say case officer & I'm saying agent and meaning case officer;
I didn't know any of the jargon. Safe Houses? What's that?Being experienced
with weapons systems, the jargon of technical ops, I didn't have any problems
with that at all; I picked it up just like that. But all the Humint stuff
was just completely foreign. D~-efector How do you get a defector? And than
I'd mix up an agent and a defector and a case officer. Then there were the
various kinds of agents--an access agent, what's the difference between that
and a PI [agent of influence?]? I was thoroughly confused. ' W I s
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cftAL l"
the various snops witnin the DDO. 1 went in and talked to literally
hundreds of people, and finally it-started to jell. What I wanted to do
was to develop a book for each one of the the area di visions. I wanted
JL
a book on EUR, SE, AF and so forth. SR when it finally jelled,
Ted Shackley offered me any kind of help I wanted. But I didn' t want1to
be recruited. I had been asked to look at an organization whose job it is
to recruit--specialists in recruting, the world's best. So I had to say
to myself, 0 don't be hoodwinked, don't let them recruit you." And
my answer to
STAT
and
had to be, "No thanks, I don't want anybody, I don't
want any help, don't need any help, I'll do it myself." So thirty days went
by and I was still on my own. And finally this concept jelled, and two
guys were assigned to work with me, one guy from the Comptrollers office
and one guy from Central Staff. 4 I went each division
chief with five criteria--I've forgotten what all of them were--but I told each
4
area division that that's what I wanted because, agin, I was working on the
principle that if I could see what they were doing, if I could see the
product, I'd know more about the individuals. So I went in to one chief
and I said, "Bill, what I'd like to know, what I'd like to see, is the best
my
agent you've got." I went to each of the division chiefs with Shin questions
and spent two or three hours with them.
K. What was the reaction to that particular question,"I want to know
your best agent?
W. They shuddered. "What do you want to know that for?"
K. I'll bet.
W. See, I wasn't really leveling with them. Remember, the Director
himself wasn't welcomed aboard with open arms. He was in a dilemma when
he came on board; he could have said the first day, "I trust all you
guys and gals, and I embrace you, and I'm proud of you." Or he could methodically
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ILLEGIB
look at the organization, and at the end of that look period he could then
come back and say, "Bill, I -trust you and I'm proud of you." Then you'd
And so that was
believe him; I would. my approach. But in that interim
period he wasn't liked. I'm not saying he's loved even today. But what
ILLEGIB
he did was very 1 ogical, and that's what I told the guys that I was working
didn't
with I really 0 have an alternative. What I wanted to do was go into
for mylself
each one of these shops and find out what they were doing and how they were doing,
In~LEGIB
present it to Stan, and let Stan make up his own mind. 0 I couldn't s are
that logic with all these people; I couldn't go in and tell these division
chiefs that what I want you guys to do is give me a sales (tch; I didn\t
/
I41bcG& I I
want that. I said, You know th?agents that you've got here under your
division. What I'd like is to have`` you is put them in a book--not all of
your agents, I only want the best, the brightest. So tell me the agents
vAwwho, say, get more than five hundred dollars a month--that's one possible
criterion. And you could pick two or three who you think are outstanding for
any reason you want--not my criteria, but since you know more about it than
I do, select some for your own reasons. Then put in the ones that have
yo u'A (, -M ~A
tp tell the President
jfihere were other
ILLEGIB
criteria, about four or five in all. They took them and on the basis of
these criteria each area division gave me a book which, as I later learned,
represented
]the top ten percent of CIA's agents. I then developed a
format for presenting this data: the cryptonymn, how he was recrt iled,
what was his best contribution during the last year, what was the best
and
contribution he has ever made,Awhat are the risks inlved in handling this
a couple
agent. In the course of this process, of the divisions proved relucatnt
initial'
to share this information, and their,` eturns ran something like this:
STAT I N'JCryptonym: II
~ v Fl64 easWakUJM8/13--: CIA-RDP84BO089OR00-0SM-t1O034-6-
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ILLEGIB
Best take in the past year: 7.6 over-all reporting average.
It was just "'1 cryptic form. So I took it back to the division
chiefhnd I said, "Bill, we have two alternative ways of going. I can
pass it to the Director this way, and that's not going to convey to
him what I think he wants to know. He wants to know, How good are the
agents we have? What are they doing? He doesn't know anything about
the Clandestine Service, and this could be the way to tell him about it`'_
massage
SO they would take it back and it and give it back, and I'd go through
v 'A with
the book and say, Do this one over, and this one,' and so forth;Aseveral divisions
I went through two or three iterations of the process. I called it pablum--
ou're giving me pablum; I said. "The Director doesn't understand an average
grade of 7.6~ What is it that the person gave us? Specifically! Was
the best thing he gave us a commo link? Did a code clerk give us the actual chips
We can, we mustybe quite specific`' So, after two or three iterations like
this, we came up with the books. Now, who would see them? I told each one
of the division chiefs that only two people would see his book, myself and the
1
Director. vNow if you think it' sot warranted for me to see it, I'm willing
to take the sealed book and hand it to the Director only, but it's on your
shoulders to see that it satisfies his needs. I'll stay out of the loop; I'1\
.~ 1
do anything you want One of the divisions considered that; they said. they
and there were
would put the agent's true name and his bio data--1etails that would make
pinpoint the individual, no doubt about it
it possible to on one page, and the product on the opposite.
Would that be o.k? I said, Sure, and for awhile they considered doing it
that way and handing it directly to the Director.Finally, and with no push
on either side, they said "Rusty you know more about what he wants, why
don't you just look it over'' And I did, and that was that. Finally I got
on agent reporting
all those books put to#gether, and in addition I had a great, thick book
on a potpourri of things about the DDO--altogether, I think I had eleven
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notebooks covering the area divisions and some of the specialized operations.,'
I racked them up and Stan and I spent about two days in his office
going over these volumes. And he read every page. /Finally, I had'-'--
covering
a two-or three-page memo of my own on these volumes.
Now in the eight DDO volumes covering the agents, if you could read
those books,, there is no way that any human could be anything but grossly
impressed. There is no way, there is absotltely no way that anyone could
logically say that they're not impressed, and that's what I was trying to
get at from the very beginning.
bvr when I started out I didn't give a damn how the chips fell; I
could have cared less--this didn't mean anything to me personally. Sure,
as a citizen I cared, but I wasn't trying to sell the place, I wasn't trying
to tear the place down. I was just trying to find out what it is that we do,
what kinds of people we've got, because I had been asked, Are we doing the
right thing? Well, one way to get at the answer, to get inside the place,
considered
wasC to findCo what h~e~orgizaatioQ fiq&t was important. The agent was
-k gr
important to them ,A but what I was really trying to find out was, How do you recrui
Specifically, Z(o you guys use dope? Do you
use drugs? Do you use sex? I got it on those sheets, because these were
their best recruitments. I wasn't interested in how you got some Cuban
corporal in Africa; he's a walk-in, some minor thing. It was how you got
the really good guy that I needed to know.
1+7
K. I gather from the way you put tit that you consider that there
should be some kind of line between methods that are appropriate for us to
use in clandestine collection and, on the other side, in our kind of society,
there are methods that you feel are inappropriate. Would you be able to
trace that line for us?
W. I've talked with some of the senior guys, some of the veterans of
the A M M M O l~t5tf l ~ R /~~ 099A@F W V 1&1i4f6 agree.
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STAT
ILLEGIB
But I admit that I feel strongly about it. I don't think it's proper IL L E GIB
ever to use drugs, or booze, or sex as a means of recruitment.
}Against the
money, STAT
he in turn used it to buy sex. I don't consider that "buying sex" by the
Agency. We did not get him on board by that means.
f I just don't see how bad can beget good. I think the strongest inducement
is the positive one. I'm sure my naivete is showing when I say this, but I
believe it. Here is the way I think the United States should go about
LI 'm a candidate for recruitment and
recruiting If I see someone who is happy, happily married, they have the
things in life that I think I want, they have freedom and democracy, all the
attributes that that person represents are things that I like--to me that's
the strongest recruitment pitch I could get. /im a case officer and I'm
overseas, and I can invite a candidate into my home, and he sees my way of
life--my kids are happy, we can freely travel, my wife can differ with me
and I accept that, I can differ with her and she accepts that, I have a nice
car, I have good clothes, in short I'm living the American dream--that's
it's not
the thing that's really attractive; Athe fact that I've got four fifths of
Jack Daniels on the coffee table and that I can sop it up--I don't think that's
it. Now we can get people that way too, but I don't think they'll be the
productive ones. I would rather see us sell America on the strengths of America;
that's what this place is to me, and we've got that to sell if we want to.
K. Without going into detail about these agent histories that you examined,
were you satisffied that in some of them, most of them, all of them the
recruiting method employed did fit your idea of what was proper?
W. I had no problem with that at all.
K. In other words, it's not just 0 an ideal; in the cases you examined
we actually did succeed, we were able to get good agents without going the
low road.
you can cite
as an example. We paid
W. Right, that's absolutely right. That's not say that we have not used
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 ILLEGIB
K. The reason I ask this is because you always get the argument that
we're in a dirty game and the opposition plays dirty and we have to match
their methods. I gather you don't agree.
W. I don't buy that; I don't buy it at all. Now, you can take an old-timer
these people
here, someone who has been around for thirty years l will differ with you
ILLEGIB
ILLEGIB
a job like anybody's in this building. I can do this every day if
I want to. I can sit here and be as objective as anybody in the world. The
only difference between me and the guy who's walking down the street is that
I've got the tickets to poke my nose into something. I have nothing to win;
I don't want anybody's job in this building, not anybody's job. My only job
is to tell Stan Turner what I really think.
K. Sort of the hired conscience of the Agency.
W. Yes, that's a good description; you're absolutely right. I'm a
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sex; I don't say that. But that's another story.
and tell you their own stories. I think on the other hand I've had a unique
in havin
experience had the opportunity to read these things objectively.
Remember., I'm not on the line; I don't have a job like you do; DI don~t h EGIB
ILLEGIB
Do you feel you were pretty successful at this? Do you
leave with a sense of accomplishment?
-W;---Oh, sure. With the screening techniques they've got in this place--
Let me tell you a story, even though it's-sort of off the subject.
I 'r told you the story of my experience with the acquaintance who asked me for
a_job. I have complete faith in this outfit, I really 4o.--
Has the Agency benefited, do you think, from this outside view? Has
the Admiral's and the President's approac to the idea of a IL L E GIB
"proper" Clandestine Service proved out? Has it rubbed off on the right
people?
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W. I can't answer that. I can tell you one thing I do think, though,
and $ again I think I can do this because I wasn't on line. And I wrestled
with the two words I'm going to use--I searched, I groped for these two words
because I hadn't found the descriptive adjective to characterize the work
these people, the Clandestine Service, are doing. I don't like the term
DDO, by the way, and I'm not sold on the Clandestine Service as a title
either. The DDB to me is an individual, and the organization should have
some handle that you can refer to.
K. Some of us use DO to refer to the organization.
W. Yeah, but DO doesn't do it for me either. Anyway, the other
morning I was running up the stairs and it clicked. What I'm getting at is,
(And
What does it mean to be a case officer? (I'm not denigrating or ignoring
the contribution that the DDA, the DDS$T and NFAC make.) But we're
A
discussing the case officer ."'M case officer is sort of the grunt in the
What is it what is the job they are
field. The question we're addressing is, doing in this IL L E GIB
maze of things? To me, the words "properly done " are the words that
sum up the situation.
Properly done, the job of the case officer is the most difficult one
in the world. I can't think of a more difficult job in the world. Why?
Who am I comparing it to? A doctor, a lawyer, a preacher, a rabbi, a priest--
any of them. The mental turmoil, the challenges, the human challenges, that
a case officer gets exceed the demands on any of those people.What's different?
The case officer has secrecy. He can always decline, under the pretense of
secrecy, to talk about anything. With whom? With the person he loves most--
his wife, his children,, anybody elseLutside his very, very close relationships
in the organization. He has money--where else are you given money to do
something and yo 'reasked to use it in the way we do, and only that way. He
has freedom of time--he, she can go out any night of the week on the pretense
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Supervision? They're on their own, and they report to no one except their
own conscience.
ILLEGIB
Now where else, what Wother profession, has those freedoms and, on the
other hand, the concomitant responsibilities to a nation, to an organization?
I really can't think of a more demanding role, I really can't. And that
whole structure, that whole architecture of the thing that we've built up,
crumbles if you take out the words "properly done." If you take out the
words "properly done" you've got a bum on the street and you're a prostitute
and I don't want to have anything to do with it. And that's where I go
back to the drugs, the sex, the booze--we don't need that. 1 another thing
that folds into that so closely, I think, is the managerial style. I mentioned
one time to a senior group that it's hard for a case officer and for people
in the stations--I'm not singling out the case officer in this one--but here
you are in Outer Slobbovia and here's a guy and a girl. What's to keep them
apart? They each have their independent/oles to play) - yet they're physically
attracted to each other and they have all these gimmicks to hide behind.
if the COS himself is involved
The key player in that case is the Chief of Station o4someone in the
them.
chain above The peers and the supervisors have
a role to play in this. All I'm saying is that the damn' place ought to
have a heart and a face and say "I care what you do." Some of these guys, sure,
refuse to have a heart. You know, they have to be tough: "Get out there on
the street and operate, and I don't care what you do on your own time."
There are two ways of being tough, and I think that first way is a sahme.
I know COS's who have been relieved of their jobs because the organization
did not respond to the needs of the individual, and that's our fault, I feel.
If I'm out there in Timbuctu and I'm shacking up with my secretary or some
other girl in the station I can say, Sure, it's my own fault. But where are
my comrades here, why don't they tell me, "Look, Rusty, I care what you do."?
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I can remember one time g_back-_from__a~ as where I had been
in a cityAand I saw two case officers ~ in a restaurant working. ILLCGIB
was with some friends, and I looked over there, and I said,;~Jyou know,
what are the odds of some hanky-panky going on there?` Simply as a human
being who is very proud of the organization, had their COS ever told these
people, "I care what you Aba4 anyone ever said that, perhaps on the night
that he wants to shack up, the girl doesn't because of what she heard the
UIA k,
COS say, or the Division chief, or the DDO, or the D CIf- 've asked the
DCI to say that. LThis cohabitation stuff, for me, is out. I don't believe
it--I just don't believe in its v imminent ficial in a similar line
of work said in public the other day that he thoiught as long as it doesn't
interfere with their_work. I--just-don't agree not for this business, I don't agree with it at all. All those things --the money, the secrecy, the
6 V1
time--you can't argue that you can only get a little bit pregna; from
cohabitation, any more than we can with homosexuality;' It starts to
crumble right there. We can't do it, we can't afford it, not in this
business.
ILLEGIB
K. Along those lines, but a little bit off the subject,
younger
a new phenomenon, for the DO in particular, is the number ofAofficers coming
in whose wives are professonals in their own right, if not professional
case officers, then lawyers, journalists, that sort of thing, and they are
used to earning a salary for their own work. Neither the DO nor the Foreign
Service has yet found a way that works all the time in every place where
you can assign married case officers, two case officers who happen to be
married to each other, to a single station without running into the nepotism
laws and that sort of thing. Would a solution to this problem be part of
an answer to the question you raised, the question of temptations of life
ou_h.aue
abroad and the kind of life the case officer has to lead.-*"-,e-h-.
s /081'331-f>Bn~8$bRbdD) 1-gn that area?
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I think
W. No,^that's quite a separate issue. On that score, I went on a trip
where I
met wif i a number of couples of the type you suggest,
where they both couldn't pursue their career: One couple was in a small
station and one had to give up for the other and they complained that they
didn't think this was fair.,T~nother couple said they were leaving a small
station for a big one so that they could both get back on the street, but
they didn't really want to do that, they didn't want to go to that large
station. I told he Director that the organization should ta'ce a serious
look at how we handle married couples when both of them want to be
what
professionals, and let them sharethe problems of management are in
10
fulfilling their desires. So Stan wrote a note to the Deputy Directors--
DDA, NFAC, DDO, and the DDS&T--and he said, Why don't you fellows get
together some of your married couples as a group and have a brainstorming
I know
session on what we could do about this? k!' don't whether anything has ever
been done; this was about a year ago. But he's very interested in this;
he's very interested in a day care center for children, too; I don't know
what has happened on either of those fronts.
K. I think there is a task force working on both of them. But I
didn't mean to get you off the subject, because obviosuly you feel very
strongly about this whole area of ethics, morality and, taking your phrase,
a job properly done.
W. Yes, really, the case officer's job goes to zero--it's zero in my
view--I have absolutely no respect, none, for the case officer who isn't
doing his job in a proper way. And by proper I mean using recruiting techniques
and his or her own personal conduct in a way that's uplifting to this nation.
I abhor any other way. Now, I'm not saying that I've lived in a glass
house my entire life; I've done things that are bad, I'm not saying that.
But when you come on board here, you sort of have to put your personal
deb A sdiOS.I a ew b8 1 '` IA D 6 8~$R 5 ~ 3 ither;
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since
I haven't been all that good. ButAthe day I came on board here I have
been willing, because I am here, to live in accordance with the ground
rules that I think this organization ought to have.
K. Do you think we're getting in that direction? If the idea
of a job properly done wasn't a generally recognized way of operating befor$
do you think that in the three years or so that you've been here there's been
a new direction?
W. No. I think the tweaking that's been done has been minimal. The
place doesn't need it. I didn't find anything out. You ask me,tusty, what
did you find out, the 4 amily jewels'{ and that sort of thin . I didn't even
look at those things. I conducted my 90 or 120-day review of this placearrd
the night beforeUt was on a Friday night and 7I was going to meet Stanion
Saturday to go over the books,` and I'd been feeding Stan little tidbits here
and there,, _vwI said, Stantonight I'm going to take home Jim Schlesinger's
family jewels; I don't have any idea what's going to be in there I took
them home and it was pablum. I didn't learn a single thing that I hadn't been
told ten times over in my interviews from various people. In the macro, what
I found out, in the bad sense, was MKULTRA and 0 Those two things. STAT
Later on I reported those two things to the President. I had already
been up there one time, and I was given guidelines by the President. Stan had
taken me and said, Mr. President, this is
have a look at himSTAT
This is the guy I have asked to do this job' And the President had said,
Well, Rusty, who are you, and how are you going to go about it, and that sort
of thing. And I said I'm just an ordinary citizen, and that was it.
And then when I went up there again, and Stan marched me in, I gave
him a wrap-up of what I had found out.
STAT
in
Now if you look m0i i the# way I view it, the MKULTRA and th
case, here's an organization that is more than and has been STAT
C?X av.~iVIH tv~ `k rvti,5 c,
go4flpr"tdy@& yse,g A -IpE~ 9( , ` 1 days , ha-,,-4ng
 Approved ForRelease 2003/08/13 : CIA-RDP84B0089OR000500110034-6
given them the right--and we're going right back to where I had started--
to secrecy, to money, to unaccountability--do you mean to tell me that
you found only two cases? You compare that to any
other profession in the United States. I have worked in industry,I have
worked in think tanks, I have been a consultant--I know of no other community
n
in the United States whose wares could be put publicly before mankind and
come anywhere near that record. I am not bothered in the least; I'll defend
it in any court in the land. Two cases?
Now, thelyase--I'm not proud of it; it was abhorrent, it was
inadmissible, it was wrong.
MKULTRA? Terrible. I'm not condoning those
things. But here are two cases out of that many people-dayslthat,I think, is
an admirable record considering the perks that we've got here, and the
opportuni1 s that we've had, and the number of times that they've been abused.
who were
I think the people Aassociated with~hould feel a great deal of STAT
embarrassment and remorse over what they did. I think the people in MKULTRA
certainly don't feel good about it.t But if you look at the
there
STAT
was a rationale to go with that, though I happen to differ with it. Even
MKULTRA, if you take a good look at it, was laid out very scientifically.
The first phase was to get the LSD, synthesize it, analyze it, find out what
makes it click. The next phase was to test it on animals; what response
does get if you feed it to animals? The next phase was to feed it to
witting human beings, a very logical thing to do, very scientific. Where
we went astray was when we said we ought to give it to unwitting people.
It was the fourth step of a three-phase program that took us astray. Now if
you look at any large organization in the United States, I don't care
where; if you sent me to look into the Post Office, I'll bet you I could
find things that are worse than what I've just told you about this
or l hospitals,
ganization. R 20 El0ctric, Raytheon, y8IM,Rma0s0medii0ca
g >
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I'll find you things that are just as bad. If you give me that number of
people-days,
,i. I'll turn something up that is just as gross as that.
K. Gi a-- - m& we-have left for this -interview and focusing
`particularly as a result
' ave n the-P is there anything else you feel ood about,
gF, of the unique viewpoint from which you have been able to observe the Agency?
last message to the people who work in the lower decks of-that area?
Are-we-in--pretty good shape, do you think, as the U.S. Government's
peculiar arm overseas?
W. 4zines~ the-bott --l e-- -z 4t-pin_going_._away---feeling very proud
,of- the I_tonsider -i-t---a -real privilege to have worked here,
I-eally ce I think the people who work here, as a result of the
psychiatric testing, and the polygraph, and all that, as offensive as it
might be, have a binding energy thing that puts us together as a team.
I think it's a cameraderie that just trancends the other government
organizations I-have. a - 1 organ at3~n in--any w~,y,-shape
K. Would-you say, still focusing on the DDO, that we're in pretty good
shape as the U.S. Government's peculiar arm overseas?
W. I have no qualms with the organization in any way, shape or form.
K. How about a last message to the people who work in the lower decks
of that area?
W. Well, one more experience of mine gives the message. We had a couple
of PNG's early in the Director's tour here and I was privileged to serve on
a review panel for those two cases. We were trying to probe and find out
why these people were PNG'd. The immediate cause was that a couple of agents
had been wrapped up and we were trying to find out why this had happened.
The unfolding of those cases before a guy like me--and I have to emphasize
this again, I'm just an average Joe Doakes, I'm as typical as anybody--clearly
showed the importance of all the players who contribute to running a case overseas
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This check, double-check, triple-check, quadruple-check that goes on between
the station and headquarters is vitally important and it makes this organization
unique; that's why we can run the cases that we've got. People at all levels
shouldn't feel offended at the dumb questions, the brilliant questions, or
any other questions that keep being asked along the way; that's the unique
however
strength of this organization: the willingness to review an operation-/\
clear it might be to someone on site or vice versa. The counterintelligence
of a case,
aspects _\for example: we can't afford to let the case officer fall in love
with his agent. And in reviewing an operation, we may have to sit and listen
or some young man
to some girl,\who has never been in the field, not ever; we have to let them
their
ask t questions of the seasoned veteran with all the naivete in the world;
we have to listen to them, because that's what makes this organization
better than the KGB, in my view. All I learned from those two cases was
that it's the teamwork in this organization that makes it go, and if we're
not willing to let that occur we won't be a damn bit better than they are.
K. Rusty, you've been the Director's eyes and ears, and the conscience
of the community, for"_ ue&t- es"years. Are you going to miss the place?
W. I guess the bottom line is that I'm going away feeling very proud
of the organization. I consider it a real privilege to have worked here,
I really do.
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