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• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00459R000100240001-1
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 50
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 8, 2004
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: February 22, 1962
• Content Type: TRANS

i i i i i i ii i i ii iii
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22 February 1962
THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS INFORMATION PERTAINING TO
PROJECT IDEALIST:
THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS CODE WORD MATERIAL
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I am a medical doctor, a graduate of Northwestern
University and following graduation I was in general practice for two years
in the Western part of the United States and served four years in the United
States Navy prior to my affiliation with the Agency in 1956.
MR. HOUSTON: You were assigned tbamedical responsibility for
the Powers' case, were you not?
0
I believe it was on Friday -- the day prior to the
arrival of Mr. Powers -- I was asked to join a team that would meet Mr.
Powers and my assignment was to try to evaluate him from a psychiatric stand-
point for whatever length and in whatever way it would be passible for me to do so.
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was then sworn as a witness by Judge
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They were interested in his physical medical condition and besides a dual
responsibility initially which later I devoted most of my time to the
psychiatric evaluatinn.
MR. HOUSTON: Where did you first see Mr. Powers?
immediately after he had landed at Dover. I was one of the two who went
aboard the aircraft. My presence aboard was for the purpose of talking to
Colonel Smith, the flight surgeon who had accompanied Mr. Powers from
Germany. I wanted to get a statement from him as to Mr. Power's condition,
although I didn't have much time to get it. I then accompanied Mr. Powers in
the automobile and three other men from Dover to the Government installation
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that I moved into the house and saw him and his wife and his mother and father
intensely until his mother and father left and with the exception of --
How long?
Sunday morning, as I recall, about 1:10 in the morning. I was with him then
until about five in the morning when I went to the hotel to sleep. I returned
about noon and stayed in the house with him and his family until we moved.
I'-believe it was on a Tuesday. We moved to the other safehouse. I accompanied
Mr. Powers and his wife on that move. I came to Washington, stayed overnight
and returned the following day and stayed with then until Sunday when I
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returned to Washington. I returned once again and I finally came back
Tuesday evening. I have not seen him since Tuesday.
MR. HOUSTON: Do:Vou believe you have had sufficient opportunity
to observe ILr. Powers in that time?
observe him. I have had a unique opportunity to see himinitially and
during certain adjustments he has made since he returned. I have also had
the unique opportunity of seeing him in relationship to his mother and father
and to his wife.
MR. IIOUSTON: Would you give the Board your medical evaluation.
I would say very briefly on the medical condition and more in detail your
psychiatric evaluation of 'Mr. Powers?
JUGE PRETTYMAN: I think we are probably more interested in
your concludions.
physical examination on Mr. Powers around mid-day on Sunday, the day of his
arrival. His wife was due to arrive around 2 o'clock. He was asleep. I
woke him around 1 o'clock because I wanted to have a chance to examine him
and chat with him before his wife arrived. I woke him. He was sound asleep.
He recooiized me and there was no confusion. I did a physical examination
and found him to be in what I'd say, good physical condition. There are multiple
small complaints and multiple small physical findings, none of which were
worrying me to any extent. Two days after that I had a technician come
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down and do an electrocardiogram because of some irregularity in his heart
beat. There are things that will have to be done as a follow-up, of course.
When the technician came down we took urine, stool and blood samples, most
of which have come out within normal limits with the exception of his urine,
but I didn't find any physical finding that would make me worried or want
to get him to a hospital or anything like that. The findings that I did note
were such that could be looked into more thoroughly later.
To describe Mr. Powers for you from my standpoint) he looks
about his stated age of 32 years. lie shows some evidence of weight loss
--
in-fact he has lost around 20 pounds. He has a rather heavily lined face
with a pallor, which I assume is a prison pallor; his. skin is the color of
a faded suntan; his hair is turning fey. He is alert and responsive. lie
is friendly. He is rather tense and has remained rather tense. He is quick
of movement. He frowns when he is preoccupied and at times seems like he
doesn't hear you. He is polite, responsive to the needs of others.. Ile is
quick to smile in a social situation. He seems eager to please. He has a
quilt rather pleasing sense of humor. By that I mean it is not an aggressive
sense of humor, but he usually includes himself in the humor. He is very
sensitive to the publicity he is getting and clearly, I thinly, feels un-
comfortable in the spotlight. Iie is quick to pick up nuances, almost to the
point of vague suspiciousness, I would say. He seems to feel he has made the
best of a very difficult situation and is quite sensitive to any possible
or implied criticism. He usually reacts with some irritation, if not anger
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to that. At other times he seems quite remorseful. I think he seems more
guilty than the usual person and I have reasons.to believe this is characteristic
o f him. He is not a demanding person. He is very helpful in small ways,
perhaps overly so. He is quick to wash the dishes, wait on people, get
them matches and drinks -- this sort of thing.
I was struck by the response he elicited in others.
I have observed a number of people who have been in contact with him and
I haven't felt that anybody even felt neutral about him. Everybody seems to
like him. I think this is without exception in my observation, and this
does not seem to be a technique or manipulation that he uses but it seems to
be how people respond to his personality. He is quite aware, and overly
concerned about his health -- his physical condition -- almost at times
to the point of what we would call sort of hypochondriac. lie is very worried
about any changes or any possible meanings to various symptoms he has or he
feels he has.
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it isn't only his heart he was worried about, he was worried about his
bowels, his skin, his teeth, his hair. Ile has a rather broad spectrum of
physical concerns.
JUDGE PRETTYMAN: It is rather normal in a fellow like that not
to like physical examinations.
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high level of anxieties, rather self-effacing
I would like to give you an impression of my initial
contact with him. lie was quite intense -- moreso, of ::parse than later.
He seemed frightened and quite suspicious, but this is understandable in a
way because he was pushed out of an aircraft into the night in a car with
people he didn't know with the exception of one person. In spite of this
he was friendly. He joked a bit, but he was looking behind him and was
worried about lights of other cars and was wondering where he was being taken.
lie is difficult to evaluate. I was a little concerned, I guess, the first
night at his seemin.y oversuspiciousness, but he didn't solidify any
opinion in my own mind and since then I think this has decreased a great
deal. He was very over-talkative the first night and overactive. Almost
what we call maniacally -- on the go -- on the go. He kept repeating he
hadn't talked to anyone in two years and --
JUDGE PRETTYMAI Did this condition cause you to prescribe say
quieting pills?
he apparently had not taken. lie stillhad them. I did not feel that this was to
the point of being inappropriate. I knew he had the medication in case he
needed it. He didn't go to bed until 10 aan. that morning, although he had
not had a good deal of sleep on the plane, and by his own statement, had really
not slept since the preceeding Wednesday evening when he was informed.
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He dramk too much too fast but this was I think in a spirit of the effort
on his part to be a regular fellow -- to feel at ease, which he quite
obviously didn't. There was some comment lie made as the morning wore on.
I wasn't present when he made them but comments that indicated some resentment,
some increased suspiciousness, but the following day when I examined him
this had largely disappeared. He was much less active; much less tense
until it came in relationship to his wire's arrival when I saw him at his
maximum degree of tension when it was announced that his wife was downstairs.
I finished my physical examination. I had been talking with hint then about
15 or 20 minutes and he told me that he was terribly tense. At this point
he asked if there was something I could give him. I did. I gave him a
tranquilizer and talked with him for awhile, potnting out there was no
hurry in his going downstairs and he was quite worried about what lie might
do when he saw her.
JUDGE PRh'L'Tr1AI ; Now he had not seen her - had he seen her
while he was in prison?
tom. HOUSTON: Once right after the trial and one more visit
0
For 18 months he hadn't seen her at all
September of 1960 at the trial.
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Now I would like to give you a brief evaluation --
JUDGE- PR,TTYMAN: Before you get into the evaluation, earlier
in your testimony you made reference to some apparent guilt feeling on his
part. Did your conversation with him identify the possible source of
any feeling on his part -- guilty feeling?
felt most remorseful about.HIis major feeling of remorse was related to
his disclosure of names of people with whom he had worked. He stated that
at the time he had given the names it seemed logical and reasonable that
these would be people that would be known.
JUDGE PRETTYMAN: This is remorse, as distinguished from any
0
Yes, I believe there is a distinction. I would
call this remorse. The feeling tau that he probably didn't need to give
these names and he was puzzled as to why he did. At the time he had given
them he had not felt this as being incongruous. He felt guilty in relation
to first of all, his mother and her health. It seems that his mother suffered
a heart attack or became ill shortly after his imprisonment and he felt
responsible for this. I would call this guilt. The other aspect was at the
point of his major emotional difficulty in prison which was in October and
November of 1961, when on October 13th -- and he can remember the day which
I think is significant -- he received a letter from his wife's mother telling
him that she had been committed to a hospital for alcoholism. For awhile he
apparently came near to going into a panic. IIe was extremely tense. His
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I think unquestionably. I would like to say a few
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cell mate even wanted to call a doctor. He was ealking'around cursing and
extremely angry at his wife. This was solved by feeling guilty, that if he
hadn't been in prison perhaps he could have helped her more and that he in
essence - in part, or in essence was largely to blame in this also.
Perhaps in my evaluation of these things they can be
clarified. He is a friendly and responsive individual, as I mentioned.
He seems to like people, but he has a reserve against too much closeness
from people. I don't think he has ever had a really close friend, although
he has many good friends. As he grew up he certainly did not have any confidant
and because of this he has learned to keep his own counsel. I will get back
to this later because I think it is very important. He has been described to
me as docile. This word I discussed with two of the men who knew him in
This is the word that came as closely as they could to describe him.
This is a pacifity about him that is percieved by all and responded to by most.
You have a feeling you want to help him -- of liking It isn't that he
appears helpless, but there is a quality about him that you respond to in a
kind of protective way. I believe this is in part a means he has to maintain
peace in conflict-free situation in general. He has a great need for harmony;
a great need for peace; a great need for no disrupting elements about him.
JIIDGP, PRI7TU4AK: Was it a fact that he was a lone boy in a family
with five sisters -- would that have something to do with that general
characteristicY
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words about this a little later, if I may.
He likes everyone. This is in quotes. By that I mean
even with people he doesn't like, he likes them. He goes out of his way to
be nice to people and not to antagonize people and he has a great need not to
have any disruptions with harmony.
As to his intelligence, I'd say he has good, average
intelligence. If I may use the term, he is somewhat unsophisticated in
that his interests are not highly intellectual, but he is of good average
intelligence, I would say. His intelligence seemed unimpared. There has
apparently been little, if any, interest in the past with abstract positions,
political, philosophical matters. By his own comment he feels he has changed
in that he is less interested materially than he was prior to his imprisonment,
but I don't have the feeling that he was very interested materially prior to
his imprisonment, really. He was oriented. ..By that I mean he knew where he
was. He knew where he was, the time of day, place, who I was. He could place
himself in time and space, but there were gaps or confustions not only about
certain parts of his imprisonment but even the pauple-.og years preceding his
imprisonment.
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these weren't the picayunish kind of dates. They were rather major points.
He couldn't remember if it happened in one year or the next year, and these
were very important events in his life. Nov just briefly, this could be due
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to what we call repression. In other words, a need not to remember -- a
painful reineinberance and he doesn't wish to remember, or it could be due
to an actual defect. I'm not clear really which it is at this point.
I am and have been a little congerned about something that
happened his first night and morning in prison. He was given an injjection
of an unknown substance following which he - or about that time he was
asked if he'd like to go on a tour of Moscow the following afterngon.
Ile said he would like to go since to him that meant he would not have to
be interrogated the next afternoon. He went to bed, slept very fitfully, was
quite confused about that night and cannot remember whether he was interrogated
or not the following morning. He has the impression he was, but he is not
sure. He begins to remember that day during the ride around Moscow. Ile
can remember that it was raining and so forth, but there seems to be a blank
is
of several hours. Whether this/related to the injection they gave him, I don't
know, but this has bothered me a bit.
JLIDGI ~'RkTT3 :AlI; How many days was he interrogated there?
I' he had been interrogated a good may times he couldn't remember a particular
day.
I
time.
Do you have any thoughts, Doctor, about what
drug this could have been or what could have caused this?
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No I do not. He did not have any physical symptoms
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Yes, that is a possibility, but this was also
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in relation to it. He was able to remember the color, but it couldiaave
been colored. It was given in the buttocks. It was non-painful. There
was one thing in relation to this that he had mentioned quite early, namely,
that he has a buzzing in his ears. At first he related that to his rapid
descent, but as he began to think about it carefully during our talks, he
remembered he did not have it the second night. In other words he did not have it I
his first night in prison, which makes you wonder if it was the result of
the descent or whether this might possibly have been a toxic effect of the drug
he was given. I haven't any idea. I am mentioning it as a possibility.
Other than that there seemed to be no imparement in his intellect and in his
ability except for these gaps in which he is confused as to time, but it
has been a long time and a lot has happened to him.
I have pondered as to this man's reaction to stress. I
think he is characteristicly somewhat anxious.i-U der stress he would, of
course, become more anxious. I think he would tend to avoid - tend to get
out of situations. Here is a fellow who has traveled around a good deal
even on his rest and relaxation. Apparently his trips were very frequent.
He also would react with physical symptoms at one time or another. I look
upon his palpitation - by "palpitation", irregular heartbeat - as perhaps
a manifestation of rather intense stress and excitement. I ud.ght explain
that. The irregular heart beat can be caused by organic causes of heart
damage or can be emotional in origin. Our electrocardiam tracing showed
no evidence of heart disease, per se. I would expect they are probably
manifestations of emotional stress. I might add that they began in November
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1959 at the time when his mother had suffered a heart attack.
JUDGE. PREPTDUH; Is this condition similar to one a person
has when he has stage fright? Is that in the same general category?
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Yes, in a general way, but this doesn't occur
Palpitation is not uncommon.
Excuse me. Was this November 1959?
November 1959. This was when the symptoms of
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irregular heart beat started, which I pick up because I think it is
an important symbol.
He had gone home for a physical examination and to sign
a new contract as I understand it. When he got home he found out his
mother had a heart attack and he hadn't been told. He went out to Lovelace
Clinic and there he had some extra beats, and at Wright Patterson Air Base
under the heat test apparently he had some extra beats. 'They had to take
January of 1959 or 1960 -- fzo m then until May let he had a significant number
of heart beats which he never did mention to his flight surgeon and at
one time, althoigh he cannot remember it exactly this was quite intense.
I think this goes along with the feeling I have and have had that he was
under a great deal of stress and strain in relation to his marriage about
that time.
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As to how he would handle anger, again, avoidance, a
need to gat away, humor, understanding the other fellow, rationalization.
Occasionally his anger breaks through in the form of irritation, suspiciousness
and from indications of what others have told me there has been two or
three occasions when he has been enraged to the point of some physical
activity of one kind or another. Usually then it is followed by remorse,
guilt, apologies, making friends with his enemies and so forth.
There has been no evidence of thought disorder that I have
seen; no evidence of what we call psychosis. He has many symptoms which we
are aware of but they are not of the extent or degree to make us worry about
his mental state at this time.
I have put down a few items I thought you might be interested
Jt)GE PRETTYA 1; Do you find an his mental psychiatric makeup
anything that would indicate to you that he was a scheming kind of a type -
a type of person that would think up cute little schemes and that sort of thing?
relation to what I thought you might like to know and my evaluation of his
truthfulness, I feel Lhis man characteristically is a very truthful person.
I think he is a poor liar. I think it makes him uncomfortable -- makes him
feel guilty. I don't think he could lie successfully to any degree.
For example, he told me it was very helpful at the Moscow trial that he didn't
have to put his hand on the Bible and swear that he was telling the truth.
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This is somewhat naive as you look at it but because of his religious
background I don't think this is particularly surprising. That.would
have been another element of guilt. Thha made it easier for him. fie
told me that he had lied to the Soviets in certain aspects about certain
things. One thing in particular he lied about was in relation to the
fact that he told them this was his first overflight and when they asked
about this repeatedly he became increasingly irritated and tense and finally
mildly eplo$ed by telling their, "I have told you the answer to that several
times. Now forget it." I don't feel he can handle a lie very well, or
avoid a lie for any length of time. Ithink characteristically he is
truthful. I feel that what he has told me has been the truth. There are
many things he hasn't told me. ile wi],l either avoid the issue and not
bring it up or on other occasions, "Wei.]., Doctor, these are too personal
to talk about." We has been honest to that extent. I don't feel that he has
lied in my talks with him. I mentioned before that he is able to keep his
own counsel under a fair amount of stress. I think this is important. I
an altnost certain that he was wider a great deal of stress in relation to
his marriage, particularly toward the end of his tour over there, and to
my knowledge he never once intimated to anybody that this was so. Through
hearsay and through more than hearsay there seems to have been times when he-
contemplated divorce or contemplated sending his ,rife home, but this he
kept to himself and theme were things that were really awing at him and
really bothering him. He had nobody to relate this to; nobody to confide in.
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Habitually he didnst have people he could confide in. l;e lied to keep his
own counsel and I would like to eriphasize the degree of stress he woo
under in relation to his marriage. He is not suicidally inclined. He
hAs a fairly high degree of fear: of being injured, damaged, tortured,
brainwashed. When be was descending in the parachute this was on his minfl.
I think it determined perhaps to. some degree the decisions he made about wiat
he'd say and how quickly he would say then. I don't feel he is suicidally
inclined. I think this also determined to some extent his ectiona. He is
not a very impulsive person. He thinks things through. He is rather prcadexr~,
perhaps almost to the point of indecisiveness at times. For example, hie
father wanted him to go to college and become a doctor. Mr. Powers went to
colle for. four years, although he had no interest in medicine and not a
great deal of interest in co4ege. lie did it because his father wanted him to
and there was this indecisiveness -- and inability to act. He has told me
of two instances I know of when he contemplated divorcing his wife and neither
time did he follow through -- a sort of "should I", "shouldn't I" kind of
indecisiveness. On the other ln.nd he seems capable of action under stress.
He told me on one occasion, for example, when he had to bring back a plane
whose fuel pump had broken. This meant a long glide and flying arouid. n long
time getting the fuel out or something. This was a tense situation that he
handled very well I would expect from what he told me. There were other cases
where he had to return from missions that were uncompleted. He felt very badly
about that.
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I think you should know my feelings about his relation to money
quite
and objects. I have never/understood what about this program interested in.
He mentioned money right away but in talking with him I have noted the
feeling that this man isn t terribly interested in money. His wife unquestionably
is interested in money and I'm sure he likes to get her nice things but he
himself did not spend much money on himself. When he came back, for example,
he was in Russian clothes. He did not seem to be very self conscious about
the way he looked. When he was given clothes he thought we were giving him
too much. He said he only needed one shirt, not four. He was very nice.
He
told me he went into the program to save money so he could retire.
JUDGE PRETT71dAN: In one place he said he'd set himself up
in some business. Did he indicate that to you?
0
I
to do what he wanted to do but what he wanted to do was unclear. lie talked
about a farm. He liked to watch things grow, but you don't have the feeling
of a money grabbing, money seeking person. In contrast to this, one of the
fellows ith him told me he gambled a fair amount but in a
characteristic way he usually lost and one has the feeling he Gambled becasue
t his was the thing to do. His heart wasn't in it. I don't know what to make
of that.
JUDGE PRETTYMAN: Was gambling in the nature of a poker game?
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No. He was getting interested in the stock market,
but in a vague sort of way. He would apparently go into a crap game and lose a
hundred bucks and that would be it. Apparently he would almost feel relieved
when it was over. He is sort of a loser.
The other thing I thought y= might be interested in and
that was the question about brainwashing. I,frankly don't know much about
brainwashing but I will tell you what thought I have had on it in relation
to him. He brought this issue up himself by saying, "I imagine a lot of
people in this country will wonder if I have been brainwashed." There
is no indication of any for al indoctrination of this man -- no torture and with the exception of that one possible drug injection there was nothing
else, but he told me, he said, "I was allowed to read the London Daily
Worker, the Moscow News, which came out once a week kn English, occasionally
a copy of the Nation, and listened to Radio Moscow. The movies we saw
were Russian movies, largely propaganda in type," and he said, "Perhaps
my thinking was changed. If so then I have been brainwashed." He said,
"For example, I couldn't understand the Cuban affair from where I sat," but
he said, 11aybe some people here don't either." He was in the first prison
until September of 1960 when he was moved to Vladimir Prison in 1960 and from
then on he had a cell mate.
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His cell irate, ostensibly anti-Communist would always
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take the Party line. This cell mate had been in the West and was critical
of the West, so there was a stream of Party line coming at him. Also
during his initial interrogatiai they read him speaches from the President
and Vice President out of context which sounded derogatory to him but he
claims never to have resigned to this bait, telling them, "let me see the
rest of the statement," so there were lots of little forces working on him,
but in terms of formal brainwashing as most people understand it there was
no indication that I could gather that there was. I will say that he has shown
some interest in international affairs which is apparently something out of
character for him. The thing he is interested in is a Party line thing --
what is the relationship of Porto Rico to the United States: -- things that
the Communists tend to harp on -- what about this stockpiling and excess
profits?. -- but I reel this is more of an i~rterec to uet the other side
of the pictiwe rather tbsnn anythi: else. He is not parroting the Party
line -- put it that way.
informal discussion with me, but I would observe him when he would be reeding
t he paper and ask somebody, "What is the relationship of Porto Rico to
the United States?" but this gave me a hint that there was come concern
about these matters.
JUDGE P LlT ji21: Is there anything else, Doctor?
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2/22/62,kh/211 q
Just what I have prepared for you today. I could
talk a lot longer but I think this will give you a general idea of my
Would you say that he would be physically fit,
within a reasonable period of time, to go back to flying status?
0
have blood cells in his urine. There are a few things that have to be
evaluated, otherwise, I think he is in good physical condition.
doesn't want him. I don't know how he feels about flying per as, but the
Air Force was his career and he seems to regret not being able to go back
to it.
Does he seem to desire to fly more than any
was then sworn as a witness by
MR. HOUSTON. Would you identify yourself?
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hi&2
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Chief of Intelligence Staff,
I have here a document. Would you
handed to hira . . . .
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HR. HOUSTON; Does that docrxnent come within your custodian
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crypton n for Lockheed Aircraft Corporation. It is to the Director of
CIA for the attention of hr. Jar:u;s Cuiininghare and Colonel Geary from
Kelly Johnson, who is Vice President of Lockheed Aircraft Corporation.
I,M. HOUSTON; Maut is the nature of the coauiunication7
I it is hr. Johnson's conclusions after his discussion
with Mr. Powers concerning the incident v%.ich occurred during his flight of
1 hay.
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JLU3GE FRETTYa M: .Then was this cable sent and received?
I
and received the same day.
MR. HOUSTON: Judge, I Mould like to text this cable part
of it.
JUDGE PRrETTYMAN. Marked Exhibit 17.
. The document was:-then marked Exhibit l7and made a
part of this record . . . .
MR. HOUSTON: The temb we would like to put in the record
does not have the cable address and other items which are of a classified nature.
Are there any further questions?
~ras then sworn as a witness by
B:R. HOUSTON: Cun you identify yourself for the record`:
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States Air Force.
BR. 1IOUSTOI'I :
the U-2 Project.
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The date of the cable is 21 February 1962,{ sent
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Yes, sir.
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From the period October 7, I believe, 1957
until approximately 29 July 1960.
25X1 A9A MR. IIOUSTON: Did you fly operational missions in the U-a?
MR. HOUSTON: Did you fly any overflights to Soviet Russia?
25X1
There was some discussion on that. As such,
MR. HOUSTON: How many mission have you flown?
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17 missions -- operational missions. I could be off there, sir.
MR. HOUSTON: Were you informed of the mission that was to be
flown about the end of April 1960?
MR. HOUSTON: Tell we what you were told? Flow were you informed?
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I was alerted for a ferry mission into
and this was - the purpose of this was to ferry a U-2 operational airplane
25X6C to idr. Pgwera at
The flight was at night -- late taking off and
after arriving there I was put on a back-up standby for Mr. Powers on his
flight of May 1.
NB. HOUSTON That meant you might be chosen for the mission
instead of Mr. Powers if there was any reason why he coul4n't fly?
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2/22/ 621 kkh/# j '"
MR. HOUSTON: Were you then, as back-up pilot, briefed on the
MR. HOUSTON: Were you also briefed on the policy which applies
in case anything happens to the mission and you fell into Russian hands?
I had been briefed much earlier on this situation, sir.
By reading and initialing, I believe the formal
information with the exception of try to hold down on the altitude capabilities
of the airplane and the range. The rest of the information as far as the
CIA, our employer, anything on this order was completely above board.
HR. HOUSTON: Were there any special briefings in connection
with this mission or any unusual aspects that you recall?
I
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I was instructed that I was to, if at all possible --
MR. HOUSTON: Will you tell us how you were briefed?
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r1/sue'`
went over the navigational route, and the briefings together and if he had
previous briefings on the mission, which I an quite certain he did, I didn't
get these.
I
1 :1
evasion, of course, if we were to go down in any portion of the country
along the mission route and this was more or less a situation where one might say,
"Now which way am I going to go from this point? What um I going to try to
do and look for and if at all possible to remain clear of towns or populated
areas. What were we going to use for food, and through a study of the
geography of the land, how are we going to live off the land." Particularly
we were concerned with water and maintaining health during a trek of possibly
a year and a half, or even two years it might take to walk out of the USSR,
and of course there was the possibility of which border crossing we might
attempt -- which one was going to be the easiest -- and I'm quite sure none
of it woU$d he easy. I think we were both adequately briefed as far as
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Did you discuss with Nr. Powers or anyone else
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a.~
2/22/62/Okll/,ylr~
escape and evasion tactics, we knew that if we were, captured wily then we
xuight be able to bargain with t`.ie information for our lives.
M. riOUSTON: You discussed specifically this possibility?
1 :1
MR. HOUSTON: hake it a little more clear exactly what you
xaeaii -- if you felt in danger you would, by volunteering information, bargain
for your lives?
course of the United States Air Force, and through trainingihere, I think
we had both confirmed in our own Lxin.ds that under duress a man cannot wit~ihold
inforxzatioxx even if he wants to. With drugs and certain procedures that we
found out in Korea, it is impossible to withhold inform.:ation, thereby, if
under possession of our own wits we could divulge any of this information, if
asked, and be able to withhold some of the more important txings -- such as
range and altitude of the airplane -- then we might not be asked mmae
other questions.
MR. HOUSTON: Were you in possession of any other information
which you knew was regarded as sensitive besides the plan.e's perforr=ante,
such as other flights that would be of interest to the Russians and would
cause propaganda or embarrassment to this country?
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FIR. HOUSTON: And was there other information which crossed
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COL. GLARY: Were you completely familiar with all the inner
workings and mechanisms and the capabilities of the camera? Would you have
considered yourself qualified to talk on the capabilities of this camera?
camera could do. I had seen training mission results of the product but
so far as what an intelligence photo interpreter tight gain from photographs,
I could not.
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your Commander, did you, of your on volition, in your exchange of ideas
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develop any other category like the illustration of the plane's altitude
capabilities -- any other category of intelligence that you felt of your
own accord you would protect like personnel involved, foreign country
involvements?
Not to nay knowledge, sir. As I recall there was
no other highly classified information at that time. Granted, all of it
was classified and we regarded it as such. The two things that I was
primarily interested in were the altitude capability of the aircraft and
the range. We felt that if we could protect these then we Wight have a
future to continue to work.
MR. iiOUSTON: Another subject I would like to bring up is
25X1A9A that
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Downi-bending of the wings from a portion outboard
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has read this report from Mr. Johnson. I asked him to
read it since he is knowledgeable of the plane and its technical aspects. I
wonder if the Board would like any description of this message.
JUDGE PRETTThAN: Speaking just for myself, I don't know that
aiy elucidation of the woold thing would, but the definitions of some of the
terms in here would be helpful. Some of the questions I might ask him would
be pretty elementary because I Itnow nothing about it.
you have read this, and speaking
maybe from the picture up there [pointing to a picture of the U-2-7 could
you describe your understanding of what Mr. Johnson thought happened?
JUDGE, PR TT1 AN: He speaks of 'down-bending" of the wings
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of the fuselage of the aircraft would mean toward the ground as the airplane
is flying. Normal bending of the wings flexing from the fusalage is in an
upward direction, toward the sky -- toward the blue as you see here Jindicating
on the photograph of the U-2-7-
JUDGE PRETTYriAN: I have to ask some question that are pretty
amaturish and probably don't make any sense but I do want to understand
what that fellow was saying. Do those wings bend in normal operation`:
Yes they do. They are not rigid as one might
say "the stick is rigid". They are built hollow and these wings flex. This
is normal. We design aircraft like this for the simple reason we like to
carry fuel out in these cells that we have installed in a hollow wing.
Due to the fact that something that is hollow does not have rigidity then
we expect it to flex. This in turn takes up some of the positive G-loading
on the fuselage and the aircraft itself. You weigh, sir, 1-0 sitting where
you are and I wiegh 1-G standing where I am. With centrifical force which--.can
either make you weigh twice as much, which we call 2-G; three times as much
which we call 3-G and so on. Negative G means that you don't weigh but
half as much with half a G or that you weigh zero with..a zrmtnus 1-G. An
aircraft in flight weighs 1-G normally in straight and level flight. As
you would swing a bucket of water around your head and the water remains in
an open bucket, you have to create more than one G for the water to stay
in the bucket as it is on the top of its arc. As it comes around it weighs
more than one G because of centrifical force.
JUDGE R T LEiAN: Now, I understand that. how come back to
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2/22/62",,ch/30
the down-bending then of these wings is a normal incident to flight.
of flight and the wings will flex. Now don-bending in a straight and
level flight is not normal for this particular airplane or any airplane.
JUDGE PRETTYMPN: Now we have gotten this far. The down-bending
is not normal incident to flight.
JUDGE PRETMAN: Now what would cause down-bending?
II
abwn-bending. Vertical currents of air as the aircraft is traveling through
one sea of air and moves into another sea of air that might be moving in an
opposite direction, the aircraft would have a tendency to go in the direction
of this other moving sea of air. As you may or may not realize there are
a.r currents that move in opposite directions or at different speeds to one
another very much like the Gulf Stream moving in the Atlantic Ocean.
JUDGE PiETTThAN: A vertical current of air would cause the
wings to down-bend.
turbulence of air these wings might bend more.
JUDGE PREM.'ftiW: Are the wings built straight through the plane,
or are the wings attached on to the fuselage?
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2/22/62 /i / 2
Z was very careful with it and I hiGhly respected it. Although it does have
those characteristics it might come apart with very little positive G and
even less negative G.
vjR. HOUSTON: You mentioned one way of doin(; this was running
into a sudden down current.
0
This, is true, such as in a landing. This airplane
uses two landlai& tears and lands just like a bicycle rolls on the wound.
Once flying speed is lost a wing will drop and touch the skids on either
side of the wings themselves. If the airplane happened to be dropped in other words, flown to a coi:plete stall at which the airplane is no loner
flyint, fairly high above the rotuid and then hit on these two skids the wines
xiiht breal or the gear would come through the fuselage.
JiMGE Pi?E'iEI)R'iAPI: How about an air pocket?
tried to explain to you as a virtical current and that is what you would
normally associate with an air pocket.
Another thing that ~ni;ht tear an airplane apart, and with
this down-bending{ peculiarity to this type of aircraft and the delicate
ba],ance,is the tail of the aivcra7't which is comprised of a horizontal
stabilizer on either side of the fuselage and the vertical stabilizer.
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JUDGE PREiT'DjAN: Now that horizontal stabilizer is what
25X1A9A
1's. Johnson calls a horizontal tail.
Yes, sir, that is correct.
JUDGE FREE i'Yci'W: Now is that one piece that goes all through
25X1A9A
the plane, or is there a right and a left?
JUDGE P ETTINAP: Say the right horizontal tail was torn off.
25X1A9A
I
deci i limits of the aircraft. On this particular aircraft we know that this
portion of the aircraft will fail first [indicating the horizontal stabilizers
in the photograph of the U-2_], or it will bend and once this has been altered
it no longer works riechanically correct.
25X1 A9A I Other things that rai grit do it would be some sort
of internal failure or explosion or an outside force other than turbulence.
25X1A9A
25X1A9A
Yes, this is quite true. If this does fail
and the tail does come off -- I say the tail -- either the right or left tail
the pilot no longer can maintain control of the aircraft.
. Ni3. HOUSTON: Then what does the aircraft do?
The aircraft characteristically will pitch forward
and with the stress, this down-bedding, of the wings, and from that point on
I really don't know what the airplane is really liable to do.
i,lii. kOU3TO1: When it noses over quite rapidly it is just the
opposite of ccintrifical position ';rizen you pull up.
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An increase in air speed, turbulence, exceeding the
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JUDGE PRETTYMAN: Nov the use of course of the horizontal tail
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JUDGE PRETTNAN: In other words, he pulls something or other
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JUDGE PRETTYi4AN: Now if the horizontal fin come off and he
immediately noticed, or say the plane then started down as it would do,
and he pulled on the stick what would happen?
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has lost the tail he can no longer maintain control of the aircraft either
in a yawing motion left and right, or a pitching motion up or down, or in a
longitudinal motion, left and right. To turn you must maintain longitudinal
flight, meaning level, which is the direction the airplane is going. To be
able to control the airplane he still has to maintain control of this. If he
loses control of either direction there is not much telling what it is going to
do. It is an act of God.
JUDGE PRETTYIAN: Now, Pair. Johnson says in none of the pictures
was there evidence to show that the horizontal tail was recovered.
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JUDGE PRLTTYMAII: When he says "horizontal tail" does he
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JUDGE PI ETTYdIAI1: Now then he says, "Shows clearly that the left
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horizontal tail.
JUDGE PRLITYT L.1: He means that there is nothing to show that
the horizontal tail was recovered. He indicates this horizontal tail
came off.
0
JUDGE PRETTYMAN: Here's that he said, "In none of the pictures
was there evidence to show that the horizontal tail was recovered." That
means either one of them?
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high tensile strength, it would clearly reveal and hold its jagged edges
in the same direction in which it broke. Do you agree?
JUDGE PRETT) AN: I don't know a thing in the world about it.
You are teaching me. Don't ask me. Whatbt..means is that the photograph shows
a jagged edge on the rear part of the fuselage, right
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by the shape of that edge that the tail came off due to an up-bend.
JUDGE PRETTD4APT: Now he said,,"It also appears from the position
of the aft end of the fuselage in a corner that the right section of the
stabilizer is also missing." PTow?what does all that mean? Translate that
into En.3lish.
All right, sir.
JUDGE PRETT d?AT: "The position of the aft end of the fuselage" --
I' m all r iGht on that. That means the hind end.
considered to be the aft section of the aircraft. Now he says that in
looking at the aft section --
JUDGE PRTTI IATT: -- aft section in the corner.
like to see it we have a picture that could explain this. We could probably
put this photograph in the record and have it available for you to look at.
JUDGE PRETTMA T: hark it for identification now and we will
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Exhibit 18 and made a part of the record . . . .
I
is the tail end of the plane with the vertical stabilizer there, and the
whole plane is pushed in the corner of the room, and he is referring to
its position in. the photograph.
JUDGE PRETMIAPT: Now he said something or other in this
photograph that he is looking at indicates that the right section of the
stabilizer is missing.
JUDGE PRETTYP`AN: He goes on and says, "I have one other
photograph in which it appears that the right stabilizer --" That is the
same right horizontal fin?
JUDGE PRETTTYDIAN: "-- is very severely damaged." I mean one
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different photographs, in this case, revealing one portion of the right
horizontal stabilizer in one and in the previous photograph, indicating that
it wasn't there at all'?
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The picture was taken in Moscow. You see, this
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JUDGE PRITTY4AN; I can't make much sense out of that. I don't
know-why he would look at one photograph and say, "This right stabilizer
isn't in this photograph and that shows it is missing; however, if we look at
another photograph, it is very severely damaged."
He Bays, "The right section of the stabilizer" and
down here he says, "The stabilizer is severely dammed." Is the stabilizer
divided into sections?
JUDGE PRETT-N: This confused me. When he talks about the
right stabilizer, is he talking about the right horizontal fin?
To the best of my knowledge he must be talking
about the outboard section -- the outer portion of it in the direction
away from the fuselage.
JUDGI 1 ETT3i'AN; It doesn't make any sense for a guy to look
at one photograph and say, "There is nothing in this photograph," and then
turn the page and say, "here itis."
Don't they use the term "stabilizer" in sic
last instance to cover both right and loft?
JUDGE P "W NI He to a about the right stabilizer.
in
9ometimas, but I think/this lost one he to
speaking of the stabilizer in general.
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"; I/' /39
about it, sir. It was something that they gave us in the airplane to use.
We were to turn it on and use it. It was called for in this particular
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I izaow an;/thing about this.
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naturally be on during his flight -- turned on -- if it was called for in the
operations orders and it was in this case.
JUDGE PRi"TTSNAN: it ta turned on. Now you don't know enough
to know if there was a possibility that it might act
JtJDC PRE7.0NAN; I think I understand this one. I don't know
why I should. "While the dmaage to the stabilizer could have taken place
conceivably on landing, it does not seem very likely, because of the relatively
undamaged status of the vertical tail itself."
Now the vertical tail is the stand-up piece that stands
straight up above the rear end of the fuselage as it appears in the picture.
(indicating kchibit 12,] you may see for yourself the virtical undamaged
portion of it.
JIA)GE PRaITT'1AN. Hero we get back to this that confuses me
over again. In the next paragraph he says, "I repeat that it is interesting that
nowhere in the exhibit -- " that means the Russian exhibit " -- nowhere in the
exhibit was there any?siga of the horizontal tail."
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2/ 22/u2 f /leh/1+l
JUDGE PRETTYMAN: Way he just got through saying he is
looking at a picture in which it appears that the right stabilizer is very
severely damaged.
JUDGE Pi1J2 Li4Ai't; The right stabilizer is damaged and over here
he says, "It is interesting that nowhere in the exhibit was there any sigh of a
horizontal tail.'.'
He didn't say "stabilizer" but from what I understand scorn
you it is the same thing.
JUDGE Pi2E7.X M~JUT: Now iie says, "'.Phis photoZrraph indicates that
the fuselage probably hit on the right lower side in a manner that would not
da3aaLe the left-hand stabilizer as badly as the picture indicates."
JUDGE PRMaC)104l: In here he is sayin; that a picture here indicates
that the left hand stabilizer was badly dammed. :fe just got through saying
there is no sign anywhere of the horizontal tail.
MR. HOUSTON: Maybe that is what he means by "damaged", judge.
Sir, might I add something here? Had the tail been
on the aircraft at the time of impact I believe it would have remained crutioled
and damaged but he says the horizontal stabilizer there wasn't even on the
aft section of the fuselage.
JUDGE PB'GTTMM: Right here he says, "The fuselage probably hit
on the right lower side in a mate r that would not damage the lefthand
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stabilizer as badly as the picture indicates."
MR. HOUSTON: And the picture indicates it is damaged to
the extent its gone.
JUDGE PRETTYhiAN: You mean to say that if the stabilizer isn't
in the picture at all he would say that the picture indicates it is badly
dama; ed
!1R. HOUSTON: He is doing a rather extreme thing. It's like
saying a man who has his are amputated has his hand damaged.
JUDGE PRETT' .1APT: It may be, but I don't u7nderstend it. Here
this clearly says that a picture shows that the left hand stabilizer was
badly damaged and now right back here in the beginning he says, "In none of
the pictures was there evidence to show that the horizontal tail was recovered."
If it wasn't recovered I don't know how you could assert it was badly damaged.
It doesn't add up in my mind. I think we have put enough time on this
Thank you very much, Captain.
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develop the down-bending of the wings of the aircraft and how this occurs
and why. I wanted to get the picture of what occurred after -- the hypothesis
assuming that the stabilizer was broken off. What happens next?
Once the stabilizer is broken off and upsets the
balance that Mr. Johnson speaks of in his wire, of course the pilot has no
further control of the aircraft, conceivably. Possibly he has a little.
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2/2 /624 ykh/ 3
As I said earlier he will eventually lose complete control. If the aircraft
then loses its balance by virtue of most of the tail gone, its going to come
cbwn,t and possibly even so far as to rotate the fuselage around the axis
of the wings creating negative G's breaking the wings off through down-bending;
and virtually rendering the pilot incapable of doing anything.
What comes down?
The nose will come down and the Plane::comes down
The rear part of the plane comes up and the nose goes
down and it then completes a circle.
is going to do in every case. We can't predict this completely one hundred
percent without error.
COL. GLARY; What normally happens is the tail breaks off,
it pitches up and about this time it begins to angle, the wings will break
off, the man goes on his back and loses all lift and he starts to fall in
an inverted spin. This is characteristic of this airplane.
rc aired in the aircraft in the fuselage. Depending on actually how much
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2/22/62 kh/44
and whore it broke. It would of course reach terminal velocity as
fast as it is going to fall sooner or later. We don't know how far or
how fast it is going to be.
If
MR. HOUSTON: /the plane goes into a spin it would come down
floating down or spinning. We actually don't know and can't predict what
everything is going to do at the time when this thing breaks up. Once.
the aircraft breaks up I would say it's pretty well time to leave, if possible.
JLWGB PRETT7'1I: I think I will ask you a hypothetical question
and Ask you to express your opinion i..answer to the question. In your opinion
as an experienced air officer and experienced with this particular plane -
I'm not sure that I can recite these facts accurately, but I will try and
make them clear enough so you will understand -- suppose a man is flying
a U-2 and he is on flight and he is flying about 70,000 feet and his flight
course calls for a turn. He makes that turn. As he gets straightened out
on his flight line his right wing dips just a little bit and he corrects
that easily and than at that point he feels something which he describes
as a mild kind of push -- no explosion, no fire no smoke, but he feels a kind
of a push and then his nose starts to dip and he pulls on the stick or whatever
it is he pulls on, and there is no response. Do you have an opinion as an
air officer as to what that could have been --as to what that push or whatever
it was that caused hhatever happened, loss of the horizontal fin and what
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2/22/62~/kh//
have you. If you don't have an opinion I don't want you to just guess, but
if you have one what would it be? What would your opinion be?
under control in the fact that it does not go pushing left or right or
forward. Had there been an explosion in the engine I'm not certain that the man
in the cockpit would know it unless he felt severe vibration throughout the
airplane or had indications on his instrument --
JUDGE PItET MM: let's assume he had none. He had no sense
of vibrations, no extreme turbulence, but this push as though something had
pushed his suddenly and then when his nose started to drop he tried to pull
it in and it was out of control.
combat mission, air.
JUDGE PRETTYM&M: Thank you, Captain.
MR. HOUSTON: In a slightly different vein I have one more
question. If, at 70,000 feet there is a flame-out and', ha the first place,
to restart you have to reduce altitude by how much?
In th*s aircraft with this engine we were normally
restarting at 45,000 feet. This meant a descent of 25,000 feet.
PRSR. IJOUMON: About how long would that take?
Depending upon the situation whether you wanted to
glide and in other words trade altitude for distance or whether you wanted to
come down as fast as you could and get a light and go back up, and I speak of
a light as starting the engine again. This could vary from initial rate of
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desent of about 1,500 feet rate of desent and gradually then increasing
up to 3,000 feet per minute.
A,R. HOUSTON: In that about the maximum?
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limits of the airplane and this is under certain configurations -- with
speed brakes out and with the Leer extended and with the engine flamed out
no thrust comes from the engine. A characteristic of this particular aircraft
with the engine in the idle position we get quite a lot of thrust from it at
altitude. This might make the desont very, very slow. It takes almost an
hour to desend normally from 70,000 feet to sea level.
M. HOUSTON: But if you wanted to come down fast for a light
it would get down to 40,000 feet in what -- 10 minutes?
D
MR. HOUSTON: And then suppose for some reason or another you
failed to get a light at 45 or 40,000 and from then on you wanted to
get distance so you put it into your best gliding position.
airplane it was that you could get about 210 miles from maximum altitude
to the ground and I say this, the ground being sea level, under most ideal
conditions -- 240. This is under no wind conditions and it might take as
long as an hour and fifteen minutes to do this.
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2/22/621
JUDGE PRETTYNtfl: Something else came to mind. That horizoalt:.l
fin - now I want to call your attention to that. You said that this
airplane's wings are so constructed that they are subject to thin down-
bending and could break off and throw it into a spin. This particular plane
d oesn't have very much margin insofar as the wings are concerned in respect
to catastrophe. Nov how about those horizontal fins. Is that subject
to down-bending under some conditions and if so what, and going still further
with the question, would it be at all possible that if you were to turn -
your flight calls for a turn and you went into the turn then you rolled out
of the turn back on to your flight path could that fin tear off?
If through exceeding the limitations of the
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horizontal fin is the first component of the aircraft to break up.
JUDGE PRETTYIAiA,N: Is the first to break up if what?
If exceeding the structural limits of the aircraft --
the design limits of the aircraft.
JUDGE PRMTYt4AN: Which might happen in the course of making a
turn and rolling out back on your pattern?
don't think so -- not normally, sir.
But if there were some other conditions present --
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Yea, we have encountered extrelncly heavy clear
air turbulence at this altitude. I hesitate to call it heavy because I
believe if we ran into extremely heavy turbulence I believe the aircraft
would break up.
JUDGE PRETTY,MT: I wonder whether in this particular instance the
right horizontal fin torn off could have caused the sensation of a bump -- kind
of thrown forward -- and when he sought his stick he didn't have any --
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