DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP84B00459R000100030001-4
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 63
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: July 2, 2003
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: February 14, 1962
• Content Type: TRANS

7
APproved For Release 2omp : sratty459R000l000lie/
NRO REVIEW COMPLETElf
25
ux.ut 3.4 February 1962'
Tape #3
Copy No. 5
THIS DOCUMENT CONTAINS CODE WORD MATERIAL
WARNING
This document contains classified information affecting the national
security of the United States within the meaning of the espionage
laws, US Code, Title 18, Sections 793, 794, and .798. The law prohibits
its transmission or the revelation of its contents in any manner to
an unauthorized person, as well as its use in any manner prejudicial
to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any
foreign government to the detriment of the United States.
THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN COMMUNICATIONS
INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS AT ALL TIMES
It is to be seen only by US personnel especially indoctrinated
and authorized to receive COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE
information; its security must be maintained in accordance with
COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE REGULATIONS.
No action is to be taken on any COMMUNICATIONS INTELLI-
GENCE which may be contained herein, regardless of the advantages
to be gained, unless such action is first approved by the Director
of Central Intelligence.
25X1
OP SECRET
41;i7 AO 0154 eleirie /41
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /09/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
TOP SECRET
DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS
Tape: #3
Date: 14 February 1962
Time:
P resent:
25X1A9A
James Cunningham
Kelly Johnson
Francis Gary Powers
Standing by
Jim C. Well, I don't know exactly how to begin on this, Frank,
except to say - well let's see - Johnny McMahon
who was going to come up with us, I don't know whether
you remember John or not
Powers Yes, Ido
Jim C. He got the flu over the week-end because of no sleep since
long about Wednesday to Monday but a he .. I talked to him
this morning he said be sure and give you his best regards
and he hoped to come up if he could with the group tomorrow.
Kelly and I came up today simply to sort of associate ourselves
with you again and not to conduct any kind of detailed discussion
necessarily on the aerodynamics but since Kelly built it I
can't think of any better guy to ask you some of the questions
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2993/99194-:-GIAfDP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
I
25X1
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
that I know have been on his mind over these past few years
a good many of which I think we had from the beginning as a
function of what we saw in the press and what we heard from
the other side. Kelly, do you think you would like to pursue
the line of questioning at this point?
Johnson Well, I want to ttart off with saying Pm awfully glad to see
you again, Frank.
Powers Thank you.
Johnson We certainly did our best to try to study what happened when
the famous Mayday came around. We've taken May 1 off
our calendar from now on - we could wreck you to May 2.
After the incident happened we took whatever information
we could get and we had some very good photographs from
magazines and things that when they put the job on display
and we tried to analyze all we could to see whether or not
there had been any technical shortcomings out of that and I'd
just like to hear from you just what happened as nearly as
you can remember and see how it fits together with the
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 201/09/04 : CIA rDP84B00459R000100030004-4
25X1A
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
Approved For Release 20
03/09/04: CIA-
RDP841300459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
studies that we made on the airplane from the photographs
that were taken.
Well, as near as I can remember, and I think I can recall
it pretty clearly, the only mechanical malfunction of the
airplane was the pitch control or Mach censor of the auto-
pilot and that happened only twenty minutes before the
thing went down and I was flying manually all the time
after that.
Well, that's interesting because I was wondering whether
or not the auto-pilot had given you any trouble.
It gave me some trouble for several minutes ma there and
finally I just discarded it altogether. I could have made
a decision there to turn around and come back, which
would have been a very good decision to make I think, but
since I was - by looking at the maps - approximately
halfway, the weather was bad behind and peffectly clear
ahead, and I had some short-cuts I could take ahead - I
thought Pd go along. I
Pll just say one question. You were reported and said
you were at 68, 500 at that time I think. Was this.. this
I believe was a lesser altitude wasn't it than you had-?
Approved For Release 200
RDP84600459R000100030001-4
3
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers Yes. That was, .1 tried to save as much altitude as I
could. I mean, not let them know what the altitude was.
Jim C. But you had.. oh, I see.. were you actually at 60?
Powers I was at 70.
Jim C. 70, I see.
Powers My scheduled plan was to climb until I reached 70 and
maintain 70 for the duration of the flight.
Jim C. But you had not at any point prior to that been above 70?
Powers No
Jim C. Flying manually, I mean as far as that
Powers They showed me a radar track they had on me or what
they said they had on me, and anyway, they had every
place - every reading - altitude reading they had was
20,000 meters except one which was 22,000 meters. So,
they were apparently reading a little low or didn't put the
truth on their paper there. But I arrived at this place
just south of Sverdlovsk. I don't know k whether you've -
may have the flight plan
Jim. C. Yes, we happen to have it - a copy of it here.
4
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 29'37CP37114=17X=FrDP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers Thank you. I can draw it is I
Jim C. Yes, I think I can, too. Let me see where we have here
on the actual maps.
Johnson When you were cruising along what things acklx - all under
control as far as you were concerned?
Powers Everything. I had oxygen
Johnson Oxygen and electrical system working at this time?
Powers Yes, everything was fine.
Johnson You were't inbuffeted at this altitude were you?
Powers No, it was smooth.
Jim C. Let's see. This marks the demarkation of the weather
here. The overcast up in this area and then you presumably
broke on through.
Powers Well, there was a clear place in here also. Just southeast
of the Aral Sea. But, it became undercast again here
over the target that I was supposed to hit there. This
looks like a pretty accurate plan. I mean, let's see, the
broken line is the course
Jim C. This broken line is your course and the other one is
your track.
25X1A
5
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200709/04-:-CVIDP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
TOP SECRET
Yes. Yes, this is pretty good except for up here. I know
I was right, of course,. here. I could
These are the reported altitudes that they had.
In the southern part of the route, apparently, I had a
stronger westerly wind and right at course and got a good
position on a radio station. I don't remember which c ity
it was but it was one of these little cities in here. Very
good.. .about six miles to thexmt west of this city is where
I was supposed to be so I was pretty well on the course
in this area but I drifted to the right up here and it cleared
up. This river south of - what do you call it - Turiton?
Aim v.%
latleakt4140,44 yes.
Powers This river, apparently, was in flood and there was a lot of
streams, according to my map, going in but they were
small. But they all looked about the size of the Mississippi
on this particular day.
Jim C. Lowland flooding.
Powers Yes. That's what it appeared to me and it was very hard to
find myself and I wandered around trying to get on course
again in here a little . Came up here and approaching
6
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20070-47?CT7DP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
this place I could see this river under the clouds. But
as I got closer it was completely overcast here. There's
a...I sqw an airfield here. On a larger map I could
show you where it was.
Sure, I believe we'll have some larger maps tomorrow.
Came on north here. I still...I made it ..a course
correction to try to take care of the wind but I still drifted
to the right of course and somewhere in this area here my
auto-pilot
Pooped out on you.
Well, it, at first it nosed out but I was watching everything
close - it started very slowly and I grabbed it, overrode it,
disconnected it, hooked it up again...about ten zroaxatesc
minutes later the same thing happened and let it rest a
while and did it one more time I think and after about three or four
minutes the same thing happened so I discarded it somewhere
in this area.
Probably where this course becomes a little erratic in
here. I suspect it might have
Well, now
Of course, you broke, ,was that a fairly good line squall
of demarkation right in here?
TOP SECRET 7
25X1 Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
25X1A
109/04: CIA-K
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers No, it wasn't. There was a thin overcast that I could see
through straight down somewhere in this area. But then I
don't remember exactly the position but it broke off completely.
Jim C. Yes, the weather map showed it as a category one beyond
a certain point in here.
Powers Beautiful weather along in here.
Jim C. Yes.
Powers Got back on..I had Chelyabinsk - I don't know how to pronounce
it - on the radio. Came in real good. Saw the city and
corrected back on course. There were important flight lines
of targets in here and I got excellent, would have had excellent
coverage on the mountains. There was...this map I don-'t
believe is quite accurate.
Jim C. No.
Powers It was about a 900 turn to the right here, flight line. And
then, a little more than a 900 turn to the left.
Jim C. Yes,
Powers I made this 900 turn to the right and I think it was about a four
minute leg, not very long, flight line and that was good.
Made the turn back to a heading of, northwesterly heading,
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 2003
DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
2X1
Jim C.
TOP SECRET
lining up on a long flight line just over the southwestern
outskirts of Sverdlovsk. I had rolled out on course, had
everything lined up, and was taking my readings and times
that I passed this che-kpoint, and that's why I don't think
anything happened to the engine because I was looking at
the instruments at the time it happened.
You didn't owtopiii;orniaeli-vvith anything at that point?
Powers No, I was dropping back. I was, .1 had been dropping back
for quite a while here to maintain 70,000 feet so I was
under the maximum. Everything was operating perfectly
except the auto-pilot.
Jim C. Did you have plenty of exygen?
Powers I had plenty of oxygen, fuel curve was good.
Jim C. You were on your curves, as far as you can reaall -
at this point?
Powers Well, I can't remember exactly, I know I wasn't below either
one of the curves. I might have been a little above.
Jim C. But, you at this point in here then debated this question of
whether it might not be a wise idea to come home.
Powers Yes, I thought about it there because of the auto-pilot. I
9
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003 : - DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 20
DP84600459R000100030001-4
knew that it was going to be a long trip but it was a long
trip back anyway I looked.
Interr You were about halfway, weren't you?
Powers Just about, because I had been told to cut off here, anyway,
to come up as far as
Jim C. You had your various cut off points.
Powers And it was already planned in and if necessary I could have
cut off and made it even shorter, so, say this...extending
this flight line here straight over to could have
saved. ..well, it was much closer here.
Jim C. I see.
Powers So I decided to go on. B1: sides that, I wanted to get some
pictures anyway.
Jim C. Sure
Powers I can only estimate at the time after I rolled out - the -
lined up on this flight line and I'd say between one and two
minutes. I don't know exactly - that making these readings.
and I either heard or felt some sort of an explosion. But it
wasn't anything violent. Just seEnned like a little boost, I
had a sensation of, I think a littel acceleration is what it
10
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 209/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003
!09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
seemed like to me.
JimC. Pushed little. You mean - is it anything like the shake,
rattle, and roll you get on take-offs?
Powers Oh, no, no, nothing-
Jim C. Nothing at all of that nature.
Powers Nothing... just.. like someone had just pushed.
Jim C. Was your seat belt tight at that point, by the way?
Powers I always keep it pretty tight and I had never loosened it after
take-off so it was tight as it was then. Got to a - heard or
felt that - I really don't know how I knew that something..
but I knew that something was wrong.
Jim C. Had you just prior to that point had you - you say you'd had
your head in the cockpit, of course, looking at the instruments.
Had you had any ground observations other than the general one
that the weather was getting better? Had you been looking
below you?
Powers Oh, yes. I had been looking below and looking around quite a bit.
Jim C. Had you seen at that point any of these sites that are later
identified as surfact-to-air missile sites?
Powers I didn't see anything or I couldn't recognize anything as such but
11
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200
3/09/04: CIA-
.RDP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003t09/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
25X1
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
25X1A9A
they showed me some photographs they said they got from the
negatives there and it showed some of those but I saw none.
I saw no contrails, no vapor trails, no smoke, no nothing.
Were you making con at any point in your trip?
Only before penetration here. The contrails were a little
higher than predicted but they quit, I think 65 or 66, 000 feet
and I think I leveled at full power with full fuel and I think
somewhere about 68,000, I don't remember exactly.
Penetrated below 70 and climbed up to 70.. .it didn't take
long. I don't remember exactly where it and the rest of
it was on altitude and I was at 70 when this happened. After
sensing this explosion, I looked up from the instruments
and all I could see is just a - everything was orange. I can't
remember whether it was just a flash but I only remember
seeing it for a short time. I looked up and everywhere I looked
and I don't remember whether x I looked all around or not,
just I know I looked out the front. Just the whole sky was orange.
Did you associate any odors with that at all? Was there
any strange--?
Of course, he wouldn't on oxygen.
12
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003109104: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200
/09/04: CIA-
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers Well, 100%.
Johnson That's right, you were on 100%.
Interr So you wouldn't...that.
Jim C. You might have 'gotten odors later down, but
Johnson But it was in front of you that it was orange.
Powers No, I saw...well, see I couldn't see behind me, it was just..
They whole sky - all around as well as I know was
Johnson All around?
Jim C. It was an orange flame or anything of that sort?
Powers No, it was just a color. It didn't look like anything
3C13011)1A burning or...but everything was just colored orange.
The right 36De wing went down or started to
Jim C. First, you got a pitch up, though, you said I think--
Powers No.
Jim C. Or was that earlier when you had your auto-pilot trouble?
Powers That was the auto-pilot trouble. The right wing.. it started
just going to turn to the right. Very slight - corrected
back and the wing came ;up fine but as the wing came up
just about the time it got level the nose started -pat to drop
and I made a good pull back on the stick and there was no
13
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 . ClAFrDP84B00459R0001000300014
25X1A
Approved For Release 2003/
09/04: CIA-R
DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
connection between them. It was loose and the nose
just kept going right down. Now all I can do is
Johnson It wasn't sudden? It was gradual?
Powers Well, it's hard to tell how fast this happened.
Johnson These things take a lifetime
Powers I remember that - well, time seemed to stand still there
for quite a while.
Interr It didn't just flip right on over?
Powers Well, it started down very gradually, just as if.. ,normally
flying when your auto-pilot is doing something like that.,
or you are on the stick and it
Johnson Did it feel you had cut the control cables or something?
Powers Just like it was normally, the nose., normally going down
and all you've got is a little bit of correction. That's the
way it started but as I applied the correction there was no x
resistance to the
Jim C. In other words, it was just as though the cables were gone.
Powers They were gone, at that time. They had to be cause
Jim C. All you got was the yabilk in your lap.
14
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20031
09/04:
.DP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers A very loose stick.. .I pulled it all the way back.
Johnson Did you try to trim it out?
Powers No, I didn't have time because it started going down...got
a hold of this ting - pulled it back and nothing happened and
I came on back and by that time it was--. It - some very
violent maneuver, I don't know exactly what happened but in my
opinion it was like this. Nose got down, the wings were
broadside to the wind, and I think they must have folded.
Jim C. Did you notice either one of them fold?
Powers I didn't notice any of them.
Jim C. Did you hear anything associated with noises?
Powers Didn't hear any noise at all I don't think but the nose went
down, I assume that the wings folded because it - very
violent maneuver there and ended up like this - with the
cockpit here and me facing this way - nose high and spinning,
I think counter-clockwise looking from the top. And it kept
doing that and didn't get any worse than that after this happened
but the worst maneuvers that this thing made was before
it got into the spin and I couldn't tell you what happened there.
15
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20 : - 84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
25X1
2
X1
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Everything was flying around tip,: cockpit. The electrical
system was still on because the lights were burning and I
remember somewhere along in here I saw the RPM going
down but I don't know where or when it was but the spin was
very violent - throwning me way forward and I couldn't
even, using both hands and both feet, force myself to the
back of the seat. But I had no sensation of a red-out or a
black-out. The G forces seemed to be forward and up. I
wasn't sitting on the seat, just hanging in the air but against
the belt.
Johnson And by this time the wings had come off.
Powers Well, they couldn't possibly have spun like that with the wings on.
Joisinson No. One thing that I was very - have always been mystified
about - I've not seen anything of a horizontal tail in these
pictures.
Powers Oh, the tail section was in good condition, there.
Johnson Why, that's to the vertical tail but the horizontal tail? The
horizontal tails had been broken off right outward of the find. -
right upward of the tersion box but I don't recall seeing the
horizontal tails.
Powers Well
16
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 . - DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 20(13/09/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Johnson Do you recall that?
Powers It seems like I saw
Jim C. I don't either. Now wait a minute. Here's the,., there's the
section right there which, of course, has got this but there's
no indication of the
Johnson that's the horizontal.
Powers Let's see now. I never did see it from this angle. I was on
this side here.
Johnson But, if you lost half, the same thing would have happened.
Jim C. Yeah,
Johnson If you lost half of the horizontal and I've not been able to
find that peiee of tail with the pictures.
Powers That looks like in worse shape than I remember.
Johnson The vertical was actually pretty good from all these other
pictures.
Johnson Have you got another view of this, Jim?
Jim C. Let's see if I do.
Powers I don't remember that
Jim C. Yes,
Powers But I thought the horizontal was on it when they took me
17
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20C13709704=1A7R1r841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
out to look at this but I can't say for sure. I just
Jim C. I'm not sure we do, Kelly. These are just a few selected
ones.
Johnson It's been a while since I've looked back over them all Riau
but I know one of the things that I was concerned about was
some of the rnian part of the horizontal - because this
would be - you could have had either the control cable shot
out or nothing to pull on.
Jim C. That's the only one of the rear. We only
Johnson I know it is.
Jim C. approximate
Powers Well, now that...no...you can't see that
Jim C. Yes, that's nothing - that's only
Powers I notice they had the drawing of the U-2 here. One of them
was taken from Aviation Week or some magazine, with the
pogo-stick The..I thought uk the tail was...the whole
tail section was in good shape, very good shape and as well
as I can remember it looked better that that. But, it's in the
same position in the building, apparantly as that.
Johnson We have some dandy photos of the thing we can show you.
TOP SECRET 18
25X1 Approved For Release 200 : - DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
Approved For Release
20039/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
TOP SECRET
Jim C
Kelly spent many a night pouring over these things with the
engineers to attempt to extrapolate some conclusions.
Powers
And that worried me quite a bit - these - you know, where the
drag chute is supposed to be and where the
Jim C.
Yes.
Powers
The
25X1A Jim C.
Powers
was?
was.
Jim C.
Yes.
Powers
Johnson
It didn't
Had you
look very damaged at all,
25X1A
switched on in course?
Powers
Yes, it
was on.
Jim C.
And was the tail light operating .. in that by the way?
Powers
Yes, it was working. I had it in the instructive
Jim C.
Yes, it was right on your map, wasn't it - as to where you
turned off?
Powers
Yes, and everything was turned on where it was
Interr
What does the map say?
Interr
This was something I wanted to imp= know
Powers
I didn't notice very much damage around here, either as
if it had been ripped or
25X1
19
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200 RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Jim C. A nice clean separation.
Powers But I don't remember seeing this side of the
Jim C. Course, they could always have taken that off, couldn't they,
Kelly?
Johnson Yes.
Jim C. I mean, since it -.1-iight have been hard to get it in the building.
They could have just removed that portion of it.
Johnson We looked at those wings - at these attachments hwre, and
they were not badly damaged, but there was a., the horizontal was
not evident.
Powers Well, there was a very little, if anything, left of the cockpit
section.
Jim C. That's right. It burned out, didn't it?
Powers Well, I don't know how much fire it had bup-there was definitely
some fire there because the - a few pieces of the maps were
CAL
burned, there was radio bar,* chart that had been scorched
and a few other...maybe let-down...I don't remember what all
was in there. There was a lot of stuff in there that I had never
seen before, in fact, there was one radio channel - channelization
25X1 Approved For Release 200
RDP84600459R000100030001-4
20
25X1A
25X1
j
Approved For Release 200 /09/04 : CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
OP SECRET
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
1K
Jim C
Powers
card from Edwards, probably fell down under the seat or
something, I don't know.
I noticed they had one on all the route frequencies as well
as your frequencies at Aadna, and so forth, which were
supposed to be the placard right ahead of you, k you know.
Well, they.. .we had it on the sun visor, that one. And then
they had this one from Edwards. Of course, I knew nothing
about that one.
It's amazing what you can find under the seat of an automobile
or under the seat of an airplane.
And they had some radio navigation charts of Europe. Italy,
France, and some of those places that I had never seen
before, I don't know where they came from.
Frank, prior to this flash that you recall, you had - had you
felt or seen any other concussive thing like a black burst
or any such thing off in the distance?
No, now I was It watching very closely for a...scanning all the
way around for contrails and so forth because earlier I had
seen an airplane parallel to my course in an opposite
direction below me.
21
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20(13/09/04 : CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Jim C.
Powers
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Was this down by TT?
Yes, south of there where it was clear and just a few
minutes later, I assume this same airplane, turned around
and came back or another one about the same distance off
course - and I estimate 20 miles to the right of myself - paralleling t
the course and passing me, going northwest a little bit and I
kept looking for those things and never saw another contrail
or anything. I had no evidence of anyone shooting at me or
anyone. I thought maybe they had lost me on the radar or
something because there were no contrails. I thought that there wart
cix would be plenty of them the farther I got in but didn't see
a single one and I don't know what kind of a trail a rocket would
leave but I assume that there is some smoke involved and that
you could see it but I saw nothing like that. But, of course,
here on - I made this turn - I couldn't fly manually - I couldn't
be scanning the sky on this turn, and it was more than 900
turn so it took a couple of minutes? I guess, I don't know
exactly how long. And, in rolling out, I was only interested
in lining up on course and not in looking around.
22
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /09/04 : CIA-TDP84B00459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Jim C. Yes.
Powers So, I can't,, ,there's probably a period of maybe, at the
most, at the most, three minutes, anyway, that I probably
hadn't looked behind or too much to each side but only on
the course and making this turn. I got, I was lined up
perfrectly on that - and then - I can hardly describe this
sensation - I don't know. ,it seemed like I heard it but yet
I don't know whether
Jim C. Ever been in an earthquake, Frank?
Powers Yes,
Jim C. Would it be analogous, in any way, to the dind of shaking
you get there?
Powers No, there was no...that was it - there was no trembling or
shaking. It was just - it seemed like a boost in that area.
Jim C. Like in a forward direction.
Johnson Lighting an after-burner on a high C fighter.
Powers But very mild, actually.
Johnson Here's -
23
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 . RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers Not much.
Johnson The situation that you're in as far as where the lift in weight
is. We have a very high camber to the wing, particularly
when it's spared, it's got Lagz of camber to it.
Powers Yes.
Johnson The weight here and in the lift here - your carrying a
considerable downtail of
Powers Yes, trend
Johnson Your carrying five or six degrees above the elevator
Powers I think more than that - depending on the fuel load.
Johnson Right to the limb of the auto-pilot . If you lose that
load this thing immediately tends to go on over on its back.
Powers Nose.
Johnson No doubt. Real bad. And if you lose half of this you
couldn't hold it with the other.
Powers The same thing would happen.
Johnson You'd just go right on over and finally this thing breaks -
inverted - and breaks off about six inches just this z1 side
of the fuselage.
24
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /UU/U4 : um-rP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers Well, this was closer in than the fuselage, I'd say.
Johnson ...well, some were like it just before. We've had three
cases of failures like this. Now, one of the boys from DelRio
had an accident over at the launching in Mississippi wherein
we don't know what happened, but he got out of control at
altitude - the wing failed again - down bending, in other words,
just., .well it sounded very much like what you've just
described.
Jim C. In fact, he was having auto-pilot difficulties, too, wasn't he?
Pow4rs Well, see my altitude was
Johnson Whether it was or it wasn't, we can't make out but he was
flying at night - some way the thing got away.
Powers My auto-pilot was completely off, so there was no auto-
pilot trouble.
Johnson So, you were trimmed so that the auto-pilot
Powers I was trimmed - everything was good.
Johnson So you had to lose something back there that's giving you
downtail
Powers That's what I thought; what I assumed or I wouldn't have
got that. Now, maybe if one of these had broken off
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200
3/09/04: CIA-R
25
DP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
wouldn't it give some sort of a twist to the thing?
Johnson Could. But nojmuch.
Jim C. Colonel Geary, greetings. You know
Col. Geary Hi, Frank.
Jim C. These gentelmen.
Col. G. Missed you other night, young man. Oh, Mr. Johnson,
nice to see you.
Interr ... get in here this
Col. G. This ain't so very nice. It's going to be a working on
these troubles.
Jim C. Oh, you've got no problem there. You can just walk on the
water, it will be all right.
Col. G. Oh, yes, I think I met you before.
Jo#nson Se q if you are on half of this force, you can hardly hold
the amount of camber you got in the wing.
Powers Well, see, maybe that would explain this slight turn to the
right.
Johnson Could. I'm going to go back over and look at these
pictures more carefully again. You turned to the right?
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 : - P84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2004/119/0.4_11L-R1DP841300459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
2
X1
Powers It was definitely - the plane went
Johnson And there's no left stabilizer on that.
Jim C. That's right.
Powers .... but it - very easy correction there.
Johnson It isn't a very powerful surface in terms of roll.
Jim C. As long as you had your wings you could make that
kind of correction, couldn't you?
Johnson You could.
Powers I can't remember exactly when the nose started
going down but it seemed to me as - definitely after
the wing correction - I mean the wing started coming
track up but maybe before it got level, I'm not sure,
but somewhere in this time and it went down very
gradually.
Johnson The wing went down. But, now, how fast did it
start to pitch?
Powers No, not the wing but the nose started down very
gradually, just as if it was normal flying.
27
Approved For Release 20
TOP SECRET
DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200:3/09/04: CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Johnson Were you - you were flying manually and of course you
had as much trim in as you could get.
Powezs Yes, I had. I don't remember what it was on the
indicator.
Johnson So, therefore, if you did break the cables it would tend
to - it would tend to fly level if the whole tail was there
but if it lost half - it would have to pitch.
Powers I had more than five or six degrees of trim, I know.
I - there was indication
Johnson It takes about all there is.
Powers It takes a lot.
Jim C. Kelly, you, in looking at the photographs of the wings,
did you draw any conclusions there about the breaking point?
Was this the normal point whereit would have broken under
these condidlions?
Johnson Yes.
Jim C. Close in or far out or -?
Johnson It'll break anywhere from right at the side of the fuselage
to eight feet, If - It's very uniform there.
28
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 . ClAFrDP84B00459R0001000300014
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers It seems like I can remember some left on the fuselage
there but I don't remember how much, but it wasn't
Johnson Well, Pm - I meant the center of the fuselage but
it's about five feet out from center of the fuselage which
puts it out about a couple of feet.
Powers Oh, from the center of the fuselage. Well, that would be
Johnson That's where it went
Powers As far as I can remember, that would be about it.
Johnson But, this is why it could be gradual.
Powers The nose - just as if it's flying along and maybe a little out
of trim and just - very gradually started going down.
Johnson Did you hear any sharp noises in the airplane? Any
bangs or something HMO{ like that?
Powers I heard no snaps, bangs, impact or anything else.
Jim C. Of course, you wouldn't hear much with your helmet on.
Powers Well, I had this on, the engine running, and radio compasses
turned in on a radio station, so
Johnson It would be awfully hard. You'd more have to feel it than
anything.
29
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 2002/09/04-:-Ct9DP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
2
X1
1
Approved For Release 2003 /09/04 : CIA-R
UP SECRET
Powers
Jim C.
DP84B00459R000100030001-4
anrt-irirrg-7
But, I felt no shock in the control f:-.?,..-/./4r1.. . Everything
seemed perfectly normal.
You say you noticed your RPM beginning to drift down after
this orange
Powers I noticed it but I don't remember at what point.
Jim C. Up to this point you had no, really, erratic instrument
readings ea
,...,e471=2:,
Powers No, everything was fine. Good. The EGT was back below
max level because to rnake-timi 70, 000 feet I had to
keep reducing the power....RPM was what it was supposed
to be for certain temperature that - - made all these read-
ings all along at each point and there was no indication
of anything wrolg with the airplane.
Johnson Did the engine get thrown out of the airplane?
Powers I have no idea. There was a lot of weight behind me when
I was in that spin. Had to be.
Johnson Somewhere along the line we've had cases of the engine
throwing out in a spin because the forces are so hard.
Powers But...the.. whatever it was spinning seemed to be spinning
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2007/04-:-CMTP84B00459R000100030001-4
30
25X1A
4/09/04: CIA-R
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
25X1
from a center point here like this and I... in thinking
about it think the engine might have still been there
because there was something heavy there - seemed like
to me. And, it was really going around.
Jim C. After you'd gotten out, Frank, did you see any of the pieces
falling?
Powers I saw one piece , but, I don't know what it could have been,
Jim C. I mean - you saw no major
Powers It was a flat piece and it was falling like a leaf or light flat
piece of wood - how it twists and turns as it comes down and
Jim C.
if it). ?depending on its distance from me .would be the size
and I couldn't tell. It looked pretty small but it looked a
long way away, too.
Yes.
Powers And, that was after the chute opened. It came down, passed
?4,< ?
? But I saw, as well as I can remember,
no other piece of the plane about but after getting on the
ground I'm almost positive I saw a parachute way up and
I think the people who picked me up there thought the same
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
31 25X1A
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
thing because they were asking me if there
Johnson Was there a tail chute there?
Powers There was no tail chute in there.
Jim C. No, we had some other
Johnson O00000
Powers I mean, there was no other parachute in there.
Johnson Well, what do you mean, you saw another parachute?
Powers Well, that's something I don't know.
Jim C. This is fairly well substantiated by collateral
Johnson Is this the one that we thought they shot?
Jim C. This is one that looks as though they've ... one of their
own in the process, you see. And this has been repeating
itself in various ways since the
Johnson But did you see another chute?
Powers Well, it was so high I couldn't tell but the - I didn't even
notice it at first but these people punched me on the shoulde/
and pointed to me and asked me if there were two people.
That's what I interpreted. Then I said, "no, " and they
pointed up - I looked up and - it was high but Pm sure
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
32
25X1A
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Jim C.
Powers
JimC.
Powers
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
it was a parachute.
Well, that fits the stories that we've had, Frank,
that in the course of this somebody got the business
and was apparently killed in the accident, according
to the story.
I think this was mentioned by someone else.
They gave him a posthumous order, another medal,
or something
They also gave some missile captain a promotion or
an order, I think I heard about it.
There also was a lot of discussion about the number of
these missiles that were discharged and, of course, as
I remember the reports varied all the way from one
through 24.
Well, they were bragging there that on the very first
shot this happened.
Well, that would, of course, fit the pattern of - you know -
it's like the old story of the little tailor, you know, seven
33
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 209/09/04-:-GIA-FDP841300459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2004/09/04: CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
25X1
with one blow. When he -- killing flies and everybody
thought he was killing giants. Eix You were in this spin
or sorts - going down - had you at that point any -
were you conscious?
Powers Oh, yes. As far as I know there was no loss of
consciousness at all.
Johnson How did you get out, Frank?
Powers Well, at first I was going to use the
Johnson Did it all come around, come apart around you? Or
did you
Powers No, no, no, the cockpit was intact. I was going to use
the ejection seat. I immediately - after this thing got into
that spin - after this violent maneuver of which I don't
remember what happened and it settled down into this spin -
I reached up to get the destructor switches and stopped and
I daid I'd better see if I can get out of here first so I started
trying to get back into the seat. Couldn't. And I could
think of no other way to get out of that airplane except the
ejection seat k at that time. Didn't enter my mind that I
could open the canopy and maybe climb out. And I kept trying
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
34
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200 DP84600459R000100030001-4
IA
142'4
to push back with one foot, 044 one side back and tr.y to
tighten the seat belt JP
it was impossible to get back
to the back of the seat and I don't know how far forward
I was but it was too far. I don't know how much clearance
there is -r Ilhet iL;41 rak to el
Johnson There isn't much. There isn't much - you've got to store
everything to get it out of the way to eject.
Powers In fact, I th_nk some boys' legs were too long to use it-
t.a.azeabouts-. .Jake, or some of those people
Jim C. Yeah.
Powers I heard them mention that they didn't know if they would
ever use it or not.
04.?)!)/ti 0 iv/.
Johnson Theyl-t? because their legs will stream out...I mean
Powers
Johnson
there's so much acceleration at the start of it that their
?
legs get snapped/and tha16-ettn-'t stow the wheel when the
thing comes forward and they go on up. They might hit
their toes on the board but
That's better than
Better than rot getting r.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 209/09/04. CIA-ITDP84B00459R000100030001-4
35
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200
Powers
Johnson
Powers
Johnson
Powers
3/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
But, I can think of nothing - no way to get out but that ,114,e
that was the only thing I was thinking about and I kept
trying to get back and - glancing at the altimeter ^
knowing I was getting lower and I went through a lot of
squirming there trying to get back into the seat.
In the meantime, your seat.. your suit had inflated? Had
it not?
Yes, and I had also pulled the emergency oxygen button.
So, you were pretty stiff, anyways, weren't you?
1.
I was pretty stiff. It/inflated but I didn't even know when it
had inflated but I knew
Johnson This would make it harder, yet, to push around
Powers After it had inflated I knew it. Don't know whether it was
gradual or very fast or what but I remember - I think when
I was trying to do squirming I knew it was inflated
then. The last altitude I can remember seeing on the alti-
meter was around 34,000 feet and I made no progress what -
soever in getting back in the seat so that I could get out and
so remembering an incident that
told me about
25X1A9A
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 201r3/09/04?CIA-11DP841300459R000100030001-4
36
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /09/04 : CIA-kDP84B00459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
just stopping and thinking when he was having trouble
getting out of his airplane - I thought of that and so I
stopped and said I've got to do something and then just
like a bright light decided - well - open the canopy and
get out that way so I reached up, got the handles, pulled
them both back - the right one came loose first - it
opened up - just flew open very violently).? pulled the
other one on back,Aprobably, I didn't have it
44thowee-a- 14?tiitin4t-know-
P.a.wEnNs and it flew off to the left. Got my,l.didn't disconnect
my oxygen - I forgot the oxygen was...I had forgotten
about that but got my seat belt, opened it and ended up
about
hanging out of the cockpit/this far so ... against my legs
14 A t r le
here and I think the oxygen hose was oFtwetive
&PA. Well, then I was trying to get back in so that I could
get the destructor switches again and I couldn't reach back
in there and I couldn't force myself to get back in
Johnson Still spinning all the Wn.ile
Powers Spinning
Johnson Inverted
31
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04. CIA-F1DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers and it was trying to throw me out. Well, I was looking
at the sky all the time, probably, not looking but leaning
over this top of the canopy 'herel.and . I don't know how
long this took but I knew I was getting much closer to the
ground than where I had seen the altimeter last which was
at 34,000 feet. And when I had opened the canopy my face-
plate had fogged up and I couldn't see anything there.
Johnson How did you finally get loose? Did you get thrown out?
Powers Well, I tried two or three times to get to those destructh?Yl
switches - I didn't know how high I was above the ground
so I just gave a big kick and I don't know what gave but
something gave and I just floated. Felt like I was float-
ing and dm ost immediately, I'd say much less than a
minute, the chute opened.
Jim C. Was this automatic, in other words?
Powers Well,
Jim C. You didn't, you didn't pull the chute?
Powers I didn't...I didn't do it. You see, I opened the seat belt
and maybe that automatic cord hung onto the belt,when it
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 2007MTCPCITP841300459R000100030001-4
38
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003
.DP84B00459R000100030001-4
pulled me up - it pulled. That's the only thing I can think
and I remember the rip cord was in the chute, I believe,
when they showed it to me but I don't rememb er. I can't
be sure of that .. but I know I didn't get the rip cord and
it surprised me when this thing opened... and
Jim C. Pleasantly, I hope.
Powers Well, at first, I didn't know what happened because... I
knew it shouldn't it shouldn't
Johnson It was so calmn after all that excitement.
Powers It shouldn't open because I hadn't pulled anything and I
/.
hadn't thought that maybe that had 'snapped out: But it
opened and
Johnson Well, it must have opened around 15, 000 feet.
Powers Well, that's what I was thinking. I know it was high. I'm
sure I was above 10, 000 feet up, but I don't know.
Johnson It was set at 15.
Jim C. ittaidatlislorkEr 4
Powers
It was set at 15 and so it would have opened though automa-
tically at anywhere Li Ick,
Johnson That's right. So, you fell some distance to get to 15.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20 /09/04 : CIADDP84B00459R000100030001-4
25X1A
39
25X1
Approved For Release 200 /09/04: CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
OP SECRET
Powers Well, as almost as soon as I got out of the thing,
Johnson why there was some period
Powers It was about thirty seconds
Johnson Well, that's still quite an altitude
Powers It was, I'm sure, less than a minute and also as I was
itt threw me up over the canopy ant knocked the
rear view mirror off and that floated forward.
Jim C. Oh, yeah?
Powers The chute opened and I realized that I had to be r5, 000 feet
or lower so I took off my faceplate again and I was above
10,000 - well I was excited anyway - breathing pretty fast
but the air felt pretty thin and it was a long way to the
ground and it took a long time to get down there.
Jim C. You didn't attempt to steer your chute or anything, did
you in the course of that
Powers Yes. I tried to hit ... a wooded area but the winds were
411e,
back force. Seems like I would go toAeast a while and then
come back to the west a while. I couldn't tell what was
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200'3/09/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
40
25X1
25X1A
Approved For Release 2002
/09/04: CIA-R
TOP SECRET
DP84600459R000100030001-4
happening but I tried to get to this woods and I guess,
maybe - I don't know whether I helped the chute very
much but it was ... oh ... maybe two or three hundred
yards to the edge of this woods, from where I hit.
Jim C. Had you seen from the air, people on the ground running
towards you or anything
Powers Well, when I got down fairly low, there was a .. I didn't
know at the time that people were coming toward me but
I could see a car coming down the road towards this little
village that I landed just outside of. Good luck, apparently.
Jim C. How far did you land from the airplane?
Powers I don't know where the airplane landed. They showed me
a map and said this is where it was but I didn't know where
I had been. ,
Jim C. I see.
Powers And they showed us where the pieces were picked up.
There was a wing here and a wing there .. an engine here
and I don't know how many
Johnson The engine was separate from the airplane.
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
41 25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200 /09/04 : CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
OP SECRET
Powers It was at that time
Johnson Yet, it comes out in that spin, finally.
Powers It was at that time, I'm pretty sure.
Interr. Could you figure how much separation there was between
the pieces roughly, Frank?
Jim C. From looking at the map.
Powers It was over a several mile area. I don't know the scale
of the map you gave but I'd say the two furthest pieces
were .. well, it would just be a guess because I can't
remember what this map was but they were scattered.
Johnson Well, F etty well scattered.
Interr. scattered
Powers They weren't in a clump but around
Johnson Did they sail a long way? When those wings break off
they're awfully light.
Jim C. When they showed you the equipment at Gorki Park, Frank,
did you notice any doctoring of anyof the pieces of the air-
plane? In other words, where it looked as though it had
been taken apart and incorrectly assembled?
Powers Well, most of the equipment was very highly labelled
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200'3/09/04 : CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
42
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003109/04: CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Interns Several people whispering.
Powers I noticed the destructor ... they had a hole cut in it or
something and there was no charge in it. Some of the
radio sets, and so forth, were so banged up that I don't
believe they could have taken them apart and got them
back in.
Jim C. I think, Kelly, you saw something about the ejection seat
that you thought was a little fishy, didn't you?
Johnson Oh, we know it's fishy because they took it apart and mis-
assembled it.
Powers I didn't know this, then.
Johnson Well, we went over everything we could from those pictures
and this is very evident that they'd been interested in the
seat.
Jim C. Yes.
Powers They told me that during the investigation that it was
rigged up so that if I pulled the ejection seat it would
have blown up immediately. They were trying to ,K)11
Johnson This is absolutely not true.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 2003(09/04. CIA-rDP84B00459R000100030001-4
43
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA- DP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers Well, I know that ... I didn't believe it for a minute.
Jim C. I think we gave you a little ribbing on that as I remember,
Kelly,
Johnson Quite a little, as a matter of fact.
Inte rr . I've been ribbed for many a
Powers I knew what they were after there. They were trying to
get me angry.. with the
Jim C. Interrogators.
Powers No. To be angry with you people but later on they denied
that they'd ever said that to me because their experts
turned in .. so .. a study ofl this and they didn't know how
it was rigged up to explode because, apparently, they
didn't find the timer on the destruction. In fact, that
cockpit seemed to be pretty well destroyed.
Jim C. Oh, physically intact, you mean, the shell.
Powers Well, they didn't have that much of the shell there, it
seemed like to me, there was the canopy itself - the
front part of the cockpit and I don't remember
Interr This was pretty flattened by tie
Powers very much of the shell at all
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/
09/04: CIA-RD
P84600459R000100030001-4
44
25X1A
25X1
25X1 Approved For Release 200:3/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
TOP SECRET
Johnson The equipment bay?
Powers The equipment bay? I don't remember seeing any of
that, either.
Jim C. That's the thing we noticed was not present in any of the
Q bay stuff.
Powers Well, they had a camera there.
Jim C. This we know
Powers It had a big lens,
Jim C. Oh, yes. It had a big lens, yeah, but we never saw the
full amount of the camera.
Powers and, they had something, well, see I don't know too much
how that camera worked but they had these two pieces of
positives placed on this
Johnson Display
Powers Well, during the display they had this part of the camera,
I'm sure where the film goes through
Interr Film transport to platinum.
Powers Right. And, they had the positive prints placed on that.
Jim C. Did they ever indicate to you that the camera was des-
troyed in any way in the course of these discussions with
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
45
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2001/09/04 : CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
OP SECRET
25X1
you?
Powers No, only when they showed me there and I could see...
they had this ring too that this thing swings on. I saw
that. But, they didn't tell me anything about what was
destroyed or what was not destroyed.
Jim C. And, they didn't say, we got so many thousand feet
Powers Oh, yeah. They told me they had plenty of that. In fact,
they had ... they said a tremendous amount but I don't
know how much.
Johnson Did they show you any, Frank?
Powers They showed me some prints and it had rocket launching
sites on it.
Interr There was no way you could tell from any of your experi-
ence whether these actually were prints out of your camera
or not.
Powers No, because I don't know whether I could see those rocket
launching sites from the air or not but the ones they showed
me definitely had it on there; and I couldn't be sure that
they came from my camera or they did it themselves. I
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
46 25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003 DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
have no way of knowing that; but they told me they had a
lot of film and I saw the track of film. The first place
they took me they started bringing in pieces of equipment.
Someone would bring in a little piece of metal and they
had ... about this ... not much of the tracker but there
was a lot of film there so it ... I'm sure they get some-
thing out of that and they laid it over there and I saw it.
I immediately ... when they started questioning, admitted
that we always carried a camera that shows where the course
was, and so forth. But, I told them that I never knew what
kind of equipment was in there. I didn't even know that there
was cameras in there and that's where I made one mistake
because my check list had cameras written on it.
Jim C. Uh, HUH! Did they remind you of this error?
of it
Powers No, they didn't remind me/but they gave me this-
Interr Did they ever remind you of it?
Powers -check list and I saw it.
Jim C. Well.
Inte rr They never mentioned it to you.
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 20crimiu4 : u1A-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
47
25X1A
09/04 : CIA-R
25X1
Approved For Release 200
2P84B00459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Powers They never mentioned it. They didn't say you're lying.
Jim C. Do you think that they accepted your attempt here to pass
yourself off as just a truck driver?
Powers Oh, yes.
Jim C. There was a feeling among some of us that they may have
accepted you as pretty much just a guy who went along and
drove the front end he didn't know what the hell the
Powers That's what I was trying to kid them - that I knew nothing
about what was going on back there and I convinced them
that I knew nothing about the equipment. Although, I didn't
convince them that I didn't know that there were cameras
on board because since it was written right there that there
was but I didn't remember that that was on my check list.
Jim C. I see.
Powers And, I didn't even know that they had a check list.
Jim C. You mean thecamera on*, thecamera off'
Powers And it says
Jim C. Mode one, mode two and
Powers Well, it says the procedure for turning a camera on and
during flight not having to turn it off and
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20131u9/04 : CIA-RDP84B00459R000100030001-4 48
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 200
3/09/04: CIA-R
TOP SECRET
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Jim C. I see.
Powers All of this and it had, I think, A Camera, B Camera.
That was bad.
Jim C. Yes.
Powers But I didn't remember that those things were on one of
these check lists so they knew I was lying there but I did
convince them that I had never seen the equipment - that
when the things were loaded no one was around. That all
I had to do was go-when it said on this map - turn a switcl:
on.. I turned a switch on - and that's where they got this
little trick of saying, well - in turning one of these little
switches on couldn't you have dropped a bomb.. or some-
thing. And, I told them this airplane couldn't carry a bomb
and they knew that, I'm sure, from just studying the design.
But, they used that in the trial to .. would it be possible for
this plane to be carrying a bomb without your knowing it
or something. I said, "Yes, it would be possiblejbut it
can't. It's not designed for that; it can't drop any weight.
Johnson Jim, I must leave in a few minutes. I'd like to change
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 : iArDP84B00459R0001000300014
49 25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
the course of conversation
Jim C. Alright, you go right ahead.
Johnson slowing up out here but, Frank, I wanted to tell
you that - I don't know what your plans are, or what life
will come but if you decide you want to come back to work
we've got places where, I think, we can give you something
to do. Perhaps, if you'd want to work down in our Mari-
etta, Georgia plant, close to where your wife is, or some
other place - if you'd give Jim a ring - I'd like to do what
I can to get you back into this thing.
Powers That's very nice of you. I have no idea what the future's
going to be like,
Interr I think that you're going to have to go to work, sometime.
Jim C. Yeah, you can't
Powers Yes. You can hardly walk to it.
Johnson I want to let you know that's the way we feel about it.
Powers Well, that's very nice. Thank you.
Johnson You can get a hold of Jim or Leo. They know how to get
a hold of me and could work something out.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200110-970-47-C9DP841300459R000100030001-4
50 25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
Jim C. We can't get a hold of you in the right places, usually,
Kelly, that's
Interr You mean around here?
Interr He's pretty well had it.
Jim C. One question. Did they quiz you at all about the Company?
About Lockheed.
Powers No, they didn't.
Jim C. Any of the personalities involved in Lockheed?
Powers They didn't ask a word about it.
Jim C Uh, huh. They had no doubt that it was Lockheed - I
would say.
Powers that was quite obvious, I think. I'm sure they
Interr Couldn t you tell them it was Convair?
Powers They had it in magazines.
Interr Couldn't you tell them it was a Convair or a Douglas?
Jim C. Looking for advertising, Kelly?
Interr Looking for advertising.
Powers They asked nothing about that that I can remember, anyway.
Jim C. Well, I know you're anxious, Kelly, to
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 209/09/04: CIA-TDP841300459R000100030001-4
51 25X1A
3/09/04: CIA-R
25X1
Approved For Release 20
TOP SECRET
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Johnson This is fast yearning but Mr. Geary, here, gives me
that fishy eye
Several people speaking at once here. Inaudible.
Col G. you can have fifteen minutes if you want to, Kelly,
as long as the wind doesn't get out of hand
Johnson Well, you just keep the wind controlled and we'll go
right on
Jim C. What kind of a thing are you in, by the way?
Col. G. I've got an H-21.
Jim C. Oh,
Col. G. Do you want to go back with us?
Jim C. No thanks. What am I going to do with this car? Bury it?
Laughter.
Col. G. I don't know
Interr If you wish.
Col. G. policy, you ought to bury it
Inte rr Run that recorder down.
Jim C. No, I thought if it was, I mean, I've assumed you all were
going thata way and I was going thisa way because I thought
TOP SECRET 52
25X1 Approved For Release 200/09/04 : CIA-1rDP84B00459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 2003/09/04 : CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
25X1
I might sort of stick aroulid depending on Frank's plans
Col G. Of course, on the other hand, Kelly, there's no heck of
a reason why we should become associated with UGA,
anyway.
Powers I want to say one thing, here. I have no idea what this
explosion could have been and I can't even be positive
if it was an explosion but I can be almost 99% positive
that there was something
Interr Are you sure of the light, Frank? Are you sure of the
orange light?
Powers I'm sure that it was very orange.
Johnson About what time was this?
Powers I think I can figure that up on
Jim C. You mean the local time over there?
Inte rr Yeah, the local time.
Powers It was pretty early..
Jim I think it
Johnson I was wondering whether or not this could have been a
white cloud with the sun shining on it to give it a
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
53
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200
/09/04: CIA
RT
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers No, it was perfectly clear.
Jim C. Well, here's a
Johnson Perfectly clear.
Powers at this point, straight ahead.
Johnson But, you said
Jim C. Yeah, we...they estimate a
Powers It was straight up and there were no clouds above me.
Johnson No, I mean... the thing that you saw.. was the explosion
Jim C. Course, this is happy thing here. This is all in Z time -
it says that subsequent to zero six two zero Z they though.
that you had bailed out.
Powers Zero six two Z
Jim C. Yeah, two zero Z. Ah, as I recall the time and
Interr It's four hours difference
Powers It was
Jim C. Yeah
Powers something like four hours or
Jim C. here are the times that we had.- right here -
this time up here zero five three six Z
Iffterr Well, would that be
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 : ClAIrDP84B00459R0001000300014 54
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 2003
TOP
V09/04: CIA-R
P84600459R000100030001-4
25X1
SECRET
Interr
This is seven or eight in the morning?
Jim C.
Yes.
Powers
It was this early in the morning?
Jim C.
Yes.
Johnson
Well, I was wondering if there had been an explosion with
white smoke-then could the sun have colored it to give it
the orange impression?
Powers
Well, it didn't appear to be smoke it just seemed that the
whole sky ? . was .. smoke
Johnson
Oh, you didn't see any
Powers
I saw no smoke
Johnson
smoke, as such. You just an orange
Powers
I felt or heard this - looked up - and everything looked
orange and all I could see was the sky
Jim C.
Did that color persist - when you next got a look at the
sky was it still orange?
Powers
Well, I don't remember ever seeing the color again.
J:.m C.
They were asking me this, yesterday, I think.
I see.
Powers
And, I cannot remember - - I don't know when it went
25X1A
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-PDP841300459R000100030001-4
55
25X1 Approved For Release 200:3/09/04: CIA-RDP84600459R000100030001-4
TOP SECRET
away or how long it lasted but I don't remember ever
see ng it again. But this is a little wrong .. here I
mean the supply .. well, its very greatly wrong here
but I was exactly on
Jim C. It stops being right about somewhere in here, we suspected.
Powers No, I think it stops being right along in here. Well, I
was perfectly on course through these places. Where
was that flight line that was very? - - - Right in here.
Jim C. The broken line is your flight line.
Powers There was a target. A very important target in here
someplace - perfectly on course - made this turn -
was on course here and was perfectly lined up on this
and one or two minutes after - in here
Jim C. Right about in here
Powers Where is Sverdlovsk?
Jim C. Well
Powers Again
Interr Right in here
Jim C. Where is the town? This is the city right here.
Powers Right there?
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20037DP84600459R000100030001-4
56
25X1A
/09/04: CIA-RD
25X1 Approved For Release 20
Jim C.
Powers
Jim C.
TOP SECRET
P84600459R000100030001-4
Yes, this blue circle.
Well, my flight line, as well as I can remember on
the map went over the southern edge of thecity here -
right on the southern edge right there - and right in
here was an airfield that wasn't on the map and I was
pointed directly at that airfield directly over the edge
of the city and had just made this turn here - so this
is a little far. I landed just south of the city here, some-
where.
Uh, huh. These are the things here that
missile sites as well as you could
see coming in
Powers Well, see .. they had me .... This photograph was a
vertical and they said that I went right over - well they
didn't say it but I could see ... they showed me two or
three of them and you don't have any plots here
Jim C. Don't have any on the vertical, Frank
Powers That's what I've noticed here, now.
Jim C. Depending on this - the accuracy of this, of course, now
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200 . RDP84600459R000100030001-4
57
25X1A
25X1 Approved For Release 204/09/04 : CIA-kDP841300459R000100030001-4
OP SECRET
25X1
it could have been this
Powers: If this is mykist plotted flight plan this is definitely inaccurate
here and this is definitely inaccurate. I don't know what
scale this is but it's several miles isn't it?
Jim C.: Ah, yeah
Powers: ...all through this area here I couldn't have been, I'd say,
more than a mile off course, at the time. And, right on here
...up through here
Jim C.: See, these computed speeds worked out pretty well, you know
the speeds k between but then they began to get
kind of fuzzy in here. Of course this is fairly normal...
Powers: Well, I don't know...
Jim C.: ...degradation of track...
Powers: I've heard about this, I have no idea what that could have
been, but it definitely wasn't that U-2.
Jim C.: The only thing that was curious was that this portion of the
course here is almost the obverse of your out-going leg,
you see, and it looked as if you picked up a head...
Powers: ...to head it back out and also it showed a descent right?
Jim C.: Uh-huh. That's correct. You can see there were...here's
the 62, 3...
Powers: What altitude did they have me?
TOP SECRET 58
Approved For Release 200
DP84600459R000100030001-4
25X1A
25X1
25X1
Approved For Release 200
TOP SECRET
3/09/04: CIA-
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Jim C.: Well, they had you 72, 2 and 73,8 right in here. Well, of
course this degree of inaccuracy. Here they had 68,8 you
see so that there's a...
Powers: They never aaid anything about whether they believed my
story on the maximum altitude being 68,000 feet. Never
said anything about it, but...as far as I know they only
know 68,000 feet. I know that they only know it foom me.
But they, or I heard somewhere while I was there - I don't
know whether it was after the trial or before the trial or
what - that something was released in the paper that they
were going to make some more flights at 75,000 feet//i.
This was American papers, I think, or western papers.
And I told them as far as I knew that was impossible.
Jim C.: Did you ever hear them speak about, in their inventory, having
an aircraft which had an analogous capability to the U-2? In
other words, was there ever any indication that they had
started to build an aircraft specifically to combat the U-2?
Powers: No. The only thing they said was a rocket.
Jim C.: They never said anything about a manned airplane that they
were developing that max might have been capable of knocking
you down or something?
TOP SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/04: CIA-RDP841300459R000100030001-4
59
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200
/09/04: CIA-
DP84600459R000100030001-4
Powers: Never said a word about that and they concentratedlon strictly
on the rocket business.
You need a ggc good watch.
It stops running occasionally.
Did the natives take it away from you?
UNINTELLIGIBLE
Jim C.: Frank, we'll be right back in a half second. I think you can
probably stop the machine if you want, John.
UNINTELLIGIBLE
Interrog:
Powers:
Jim C.:
John:
Powers:
Interrog:.
Powers:
Interrog:
I just want to thank Frank and tell him that the end is here.
Well, I'm real sorry that your airplane...
. ...couldn't stay together...
...ended up like that, but as far as I know it wasn't faulty
construction. I don't, I can almost - well, I can say this
if I had to make any sort of a statement of what k had hap-
pened, I would say that there was an external explosion and
I would say that as near as.. .well my impression at the time
was thk tbsix that it was behind and on my right. I don't know
why I have that impression, but that's what I have.
I am going to loo again at all these pictures now in view of
what you told me and see if I can find that half of stablizer.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 200/09/04 : C171DP841300459R000100030001-4
60
25X1A
25X1
Approved For Release 200 RDP84600459R000100030001-4
Jim C.: If you can it might be useful...if you can let us know by
phone.
Interrog: I will.
Jim C.: Whether, I mean, negative or affirmative on the search on
ta that.
Powers: See, I assumed that the tail section came off all together. I
couldn't think of the stablizer...
Interrog: The stablizer coming off alone upward...
Powers: I didn't even think of Oita and I knew that if the tail section
came off off it would be out like this.
Interrog: ...but if half it came off it would too.
Powers: But I kept thinking...
Interrog: Well, I'll look, Faank..
Powers: Well, thari.is a lot.
UNINTELLIGIBLE
Interrog: The tape concluded at five minutes of three. This is Tape #3
on 14 February.
TOP SECRET
25X1 Approved For Release 20 109/04 : CIA-11DP841300459R000100030001-4
61
25X1A
/77111/2//
Approved For ReleaseTOP/OS ElateT300459R000100030001-4
(/
11/ Approved For Releaselep/05ECRIEr00459R000100030001-4