INTELLIGENCE CHARTER LEGISLATION HEARINGS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP81M00980R000800030024-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 5
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: November 16, 2006
• Sequence Number: 24
• Publication Date: April 25, 1978
• Content Type: MFR

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25 April 1978
SUBJECT: Intelligence Charter Legislation Hearings
Deputy Director for Science and Technology Herbert Scoville, Jr.
2. Neither Senator Huddleston nor Senator Mathias made any substanti re
opening remarks. Each of the three witnesses read into the record a
prepared statement. Mr. Karamessines, in his prepared statement, discussed
a large number of points, sme of the more interesting of which were:
the legislation has too many reporting procedures and requirements;
the legislation should provide sanctions for the unauthorized disclosure
of intelligence sources and methods; the legislation should specifically
address the responsibility of Government agencies to provide cover for
intelligence officers; requiring by statute that intelligence liaison
arrangements must be reported to Congress is inappropriate and would have
a detrimental affect on such relationships; and if the Director of Nationa:
Intelligence (DNI) is separated from heading the CIA, then the Agency at
least should, by the terms of the statute, be headed. by a separate Directo
rather than the Deputy or an Assistant DNI. In his remarks STAT
stressed that the DNI should not be separated from heading the C JA; t e
legislation is crowded with too many obligatory reporting requirements-
the legislation should "eliminate covert political action altogether"; and
clandestine operational activities and human collection "should by and large
be diminished, if not eliminated." In his remarks, Mr. Scoville also cexpre ;ed
the view that the DNI must remain as head of the CIA in order fo- r_etaii a
strong and independent intelligence collection and analysis capability.
Mr. Scoville also endorsed the notion that not only should the CIA not
be responsible for "special activities," but that the U.S. Government
should in fact no longer be authorized to conduct any special activities.
Deputy Director for Intelligence and former
1. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) today held
its fourth public hearing on the intelligence charter legislation, S. 2525
Senators Walter Huddleston (D., Ky.) and Charles Mathias (R., Md.), and
several staff members, were present for the Committee. Present on
behalf of the Director of Central Intelligence were
Assistant General Counsel, and the undersigned; Office
of Training, was present also as an observer. The witnesses were:
former Deputy Director for Operations Thomas Karamessines; former
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3. During the question and answer period:
--Senator Huddleston asked the witnesses whether special
activities might have "more potential" for harm than "for
good" and whether they should therefore be proscribed
altogether.
--Senator Huddleston asked whether the Government
could obtain necessary intelligence information without
clandestine human collection.
--Senator Huddleston asked the witnesses whether there
should be in the legislation specific prohibitions on types
of intelligence activities.
--Senator Mathias asked Mr. Karamessines for his opinion
as to morale and career prospects of DDO employees in light
of recent reductions.
--Senator Mathias noted that the U.S. Government's counter-
terrorism capability was perhaps weak, as was the treatment
of the subject in the charter legislation.
--Senator Mathias asked whether or not there should be
an attempt in the legislation to categorize different types
of collection activity in terms of the authority to carry
them out and the requirement for reporting thereon.
--Senator Mathias asked how would gaps in intelligence
gathered by technological means be filled.
--Senator Mathias questioned whether any positive
purpose would be served by placing certain categories of
persons "off limits" for intelligence purposes in the
legislation.
--Senator Mathias asked whether, in the opinion of the
witnesses, intelligence officers should be made liable by
statute for tortious conduct.
--Senator Mathias asked whether it is ever really possible
to ensure that the necessary intelligence gets to the President.
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4. In response to question and comments by the Senators:
and Scoville recommended that special
activities be specifically prohibited in the legislation.
--Mr. Karamessines, on the other hand, recommended that
the legislation recognize that the Government should retain
the capability to conduct special activities in certain
circumstances (Mr. Karamessines recommended that the criteria
in the legislation that the special activity be 11'essential"
to the national security before it could be implemented, be
changed so that it be "important to the national security."
--Mr. Karamessines objected to the many reporting requirements
in the bill and expressed concern that sensitive intelligence
information would be very widely disseminated pursuant to the
various requirements in the legislation.
expressed the opinion that, generally speaking,
the Government can obtain necessary intelligence information
without having to resort to clandestine collection.
--Mr. Scoville expressed the opinion that clandestine
collection of intelligence by human means is "rarely of great
value" and that the authority or capability to engage in such
collection should be very narrowly drawn (e.g., for counter-
terrorist intelligence).
I noted that, in his view, the caliber of
intelligence analysts was not as high as it should be, at
least partly the result of the unfavorable light in which
the CIA has had to operate recently.
--Mr. Karamessines said the recent DDO reductions had
been "unfortunate" in the manner in which they had been
carried out and had led to a lowering of morale.
--In the context of discussing the morale of CIA analysts,
Mr. Scoville was critical of the '"A-B Team" exercise in that it
"undercut" the expertise of CIA analysts (Senator Huddleston
noted that the "Committee came to the same ....conclusion").
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--Mr. Karamessines strongly endorsed the need to retain
the capability to conduct clandestine collection activity
(he noted that "day-to-day" or "brush fire" intelligence,
as opposed to "survivor" intelligence, was difficult to
collect and did not lend itself to technical collection).
--Mr. Karamessines recommended against providing for a
separate bureaucracy or category of intelligence for
counterterrorism information (in response to a specific
question by Senator Huddleston, Mr. Karamessines said that
in his opinion the CIA should not be in charge of counter-
terrorism activities).
--At least partly in response to comments made by
Messrs. d Scoville, Mr. Karamessines noted that
clandes ne ing did play an important role in the
production of intdl'ligence analysis.
In discussing the value of intelligence gathered by techno-
logical means, Mr. Scoville noted that whatever "gaps" exist wil)
be filled by technological rather that human' lection.
--Mr. Karamessines noted that it probably would be impossible
to convince people that the CIA was really not involved with certain
categories of persons even if the legislation placed them "off limit:"
for intelligence purposes.
--Both Messrs. Karamessines and Scoville supported the notion
that intelligence officers should be liable for tortious conduct
if these were clear violations of law, provided, in the view of
Mr. Karamessines, that a "good faith/scope of authority" defense
were available (in this regard, Mr. Huddleston asked rhetorically
whether it was important to have a statute that clearly tells intell
gence officers what conduct is "within the law").
--On e issue of specific prohibitions in the statute,
I lendorsed the notion, noted in earlier hearings, that
an enumeration of specific prohibitions carries the risk that all
other activities are inpliedly authorized.
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--On the matter of recruiting individuals for intelligence
use, Mr. Karamessines said that in his view res 'c ions on the
use of journalists were appropriate, an stressed
that any person should be free to exchan n with
intelligence agencies of the Government (in the context of
this discussion, Senator Huddleston noted that it was intended
that the legislation make the Peace Corps completely off limits
for intelligence purposes, and that the Committee would take a
close look at the relevant provisions to ensure that this was
the case).
ounse
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1 - Compt
1 - IG
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1 - As for Public Affairs
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