AN INTERVIEW WITH VICTOR MARCHETTI

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80M01082A000900110003-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 6
• Document Creation Date: December 16, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 13, 2004
• Sequence Number: 3
• Publication Date: April 2, 1974
• Content Type: TRANS

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PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGRAM Eyewitness News STATION WTOP TV
DATE April 2, 1974 5:30 PM CITY Washington, D.C.
AN INTERVIEW WITH VICTOR MARCHETTI
GORDON PETERSON: A U. S. district court judge has
handed the Central Intelligence-Agency a setback in its battle
to keep the lid not only on its covert activities, but on what
its former employees say about the agency. Judge Albert Bryan
ruled that the CIA exceeded its authority in ordering many deletions
from a book on the CIA by a former CIA intelligence officer,
Victor Marchetti, and former Sta-6':e Department intelligence officer,
John Marks. In effect, the judge ruled that the CIA cannot
declare something classified simply by saying it ought to be
classified.
Two years ago, Judge Bryan had ruled that the CIA
did have .a right to censor t4archetti's manuscript. At that
time, it hadn't even been written.
today.
I talked to Marchetti at his suburban Virginia home
VICTOR MARCHETTI: The book is both a critique of
the CIA and the U. S. intelligence community. But it also points
out that the intelligence is a necessary function and that some
of the things the agency does are worthwhile and should be continued.
The criticism is that -- focused on what is known
as the covert action activities. This is propaganda, paramilitary
activities, disinformation, the penetration of various student
and cultural groups; the things that are usually described as
dirty tricks.
PETERSON: Well, as I recall, the CIA was after you
to stop publication of this book even before you had any of
it down on paper. Is that right?
MARCHETTI: That's correct. About two years ago when
they learned that I was going to write this book, I had first
written a novel called "The Rope Dancer," in which I was critical
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of the agency in a fictional fashion. When I decided to go
nonfiction and they found out about it, they immediately took
me to court and managed to get a permanent injunction against
me, so that as of today, anything I write about the CIA or intelligence,
factual, fictional, or otherwise, must first be given to the
CIA for censorship.
PETERSON: Is that true even in the light of this
most recent court decision?
MARCHETTI: Yes, the injunction has not changed.
All that the judge has done -- we won a great victory. But
what he has done is he has let the injunction stand while saying
that, in this particular instance, the CIA has?been unreasonable
and arbitrary in its attempt to censor my book. And so he reduced
their request for three hundred -- roughly three hundred and
forty deletions down to something like twenty.
to delete?
PETERSON: What were some of the things they wanted
MARCHETTI: Well, because we're under -- still under
a protective order, I can only generalize about these things.
But it's references to the CIA's activities in Chile in the
overthrow of the Allende government; references to the CH's
relationships with certain leaders of foreign governments; references
to various activities such as propaganda and disinformation,
sponsoring books, for example, that are aimed at exposing, say,
the KGB, for example, but, in the process of doing that, they're
also propagandizing the American public.
And it's a wide variety of matters that they tried
to stop. In essence, whenever I would make a general criticism
in the book and then try to support it with specific examples
from my experience and those of other officers whom I knew,
these were the things they tried to take out, the examples.
PETERSON: Under the heading of national security?
MARCHETTI: Under the heading of national security.
PETERSON: I understand that Mr. Colby, the Director
of the CIA, is suggesting legislation to tighten up security
in government.
MARCHETTI: Yes, he is. He has drafted a bill which
the administration, I assume, is going to shortly submit to
Congress. There will be, in effect, the same thing as the British
National Secrets Act that will give the government carte blanche
on maintaining secrecy, particularly with regard to former personnel.
But already the FBI has informed its agents that if
they speak out that they will be prosecuted under the Marchetti
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precedent. So it's getting a little spooky. I mean if they
can beat me down and pass this new law, you'll have more secrecy
in government than ever before, and that's bad.
PETERSON: Marchetti says he'll continue his fight
for release of the book, which is to be published by Alfred
A. Knopf under the title, "The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence."
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4435 WISCONSIN AVE. N.W.. WASHINGTON, O. C. 200115, 244-3540
PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGRAM All Things Considered... STATION WETA Radic
NPR Network
April 1, 1974 5:00 PM CITY Washington. D.C.
AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN MARKS
MIKE WATERS: For the last two years the CIA has been
blocking publication of many sections of a book about intelligence
activities. It's co-authored by a former CIA agent and former
State Department employee.
On Friday Judge Albert Bryan Jr. ruled that only 15
of the 162 CIA-censored portions of the book should not be published
on grounds of national security.
John Marks, one of the co-authors, learned of the
court's decision today. Judy Miller interviewed him this afternoon
in our studios.
JUDY MILLER: Mr. Marks, the CIA seems to have suffered
a major defeat in their efforts to censor Victor Marchetti-'s
and your book on the CIA. What, in effect, has Judge Albert
Bryan decided?
JOHN MARKS: Well, we got word today that Judge Bryan
has decided that of the 162 items that the CIA demanded be censored
from our book, that 147 of them would be returned to us. In
other words, the CIA now is only successful in censoring 15
items, not 162. And I can say we're very happy about this decision.
MILLER: What kind of items were censored and what
reasons were given for their being censored?
MARKS: Well, the CIA in court didn't give very many
reasons at all. They essentially said, "We know what the national
security of the United States is and it is up to us to decide
what items contravene or hurt the national security, and we
say these items are bad and therefore they're bad."
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They were things that discussed, for instance, the
CIA's role in Chile in 1970, the CIA's black propaganda efforts
around the world, the CIA's use of dummy front companies, in
other words, companies that are supposedly private, but actually
belong to CIA. Things of that sort.
MILLER: And how many items will now remain censored
from your book and how will your publishing company handle the
deletion of these items?
MARKS: Well, we're not exactly sure on how we're
going to handle them because the decision just came through
today. We were originally planning to publish a book that had
blank spaces spread across its pages. I've just seen the gallye
proofs and it's quite impressive. I mean some pages are all
white.
But now with this material returned, I think what
we're going to do is put it in, but in bold-face type so the
public can see the kind of material that the CIA did not want
in the book.
Incidentally, I might add that the government still
has the option to appeal this, and considering the unprecedented
legal effort that they've gone through in the last two years
to block publication of this book, I would be very surprised
if they didn't appeal. But we're hopeful that the appelate
courts will quickly clear the material because Judge Bryan made
a decision and under the terms of the laws and the injunction
he was working under and everything of that sort -- that we
were working under and that sort -- and I think that it would
be unlikely that an appelate court is going to overthrow.
MILLER: What kind of evidence did the CIA present
to the court that the information that you wanted to publish
was in fact classified?
MARKS: Their main tactic was to bring in front of
the court -- and I might add it was a closed courtroom, at the
insistence of CIA, but they brought in the four deputy directors
of the agency who said, "We are men who are authorized to classify
material and we hereby say that this material is classified."
And they didn't submit much evidence beyond that,
though they did put various pieces of paper on the record, on
the secret record, which supposedly showed why the information --
that the information was in fact classified, but the judge carefully
read through that information and he found only in 15 cases
did it prove the fact of classification.
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MILLER: Is this a total victory for you and Victor
Marchetti, or do you feel there's still something that has to
be done?
MARKS: Well, in practical terms, it's a very large
victory for us, but on First Amendment grounds, we won absolutely
nothing.
MILLER: How so?
MARKS: Well, the judge did not address the fact of
whether or not the CIA had the right to censor our book. All
he addressed was the question of whether they had properly or
improperly censored, and he ruled that in the large part they
improperly censored it. But we feel that under the First Amendment,
that the government has no right to censor our book and that
this whole framework of censorship we've been working under
is unconstitutional.
You might remember that the reason the government
says they have the right to censor is that Marchetti used to
work for the CIA and I used to work for the State Department,
and when we joined our respective agencies, we called what are
called secrecy agreements in which we signed a piece of paper
saying we would not reveal any information without the permission
of the government. And the government's position all along
has been that they are trying to enforce a contract, the contract
being that secrecy agreement and it has nothing to do with the
First Amendment.
Our position is that you can't sign a piece of paper
that signs away your First Amendment rights.
MILLER: So the First Amendment issues in this case
are still to be decided.
MARKS: That's right. And we plan to appeal up to
the Supreme Court on the First Amendment question. The Americar
Civil Liberties Union has been representing us. And I might
say, without the ACLU, we never would have been able to come
this far. They've been wonderful. And the ACLU is more interested
in the constitutional issue than the technical issue we won
on today. But I can say it's very nice to win on some technical
issues, too.
MILLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Marks. John Marks,
co-author with Victor Marchetti, of "The CIA: the Cult of Intelligence."
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