DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200060002-2
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 20
• Document Creation Date: December 14, 2016
• Document Release Date: December 4, 2002
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: January 1, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

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Tape: #14
Date: 17 February 1962
Time: 1604 hours to 1627 hours
Interr-: Gary, when we finished the last tape, if you recall,
we were talking about your trip from Vladimir to
Moscow, of your experiences in Moscow, and
we got you as far as getting aboard a twin-engine
plane with the Colonel and the interpreter, crew
and stewart. Let's pick up the story from that
point.
Powers: There's one thing that I thought about during the
break. I believe I arrived in Moscow before lunch.
I said after lunch, around one o'clock but I think
it was probably about eleven o'clock - or between
eleven and twelve. The mix-up, I think is caused
because I arrived in East Berlin at one o'clock - local
time there and I think that caused the mistake there,
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but got aboard the aircraft --
Interr-: Do you recall the name of the airport?
Powers: I never saw the name on anything or I didn't hear
anyone mention it, but there were predominantly
cargo aircraft andway in the distance I could see
a great number of cargo aircraft - I don't know
how many, but there was a line of them - it was a
little foggy or hazy that morning and they disappeared
into the fog or whatever it was. We,took off
somewhere around nine o'clock, maybe a little after
nine o'clock - local time - Moscow time. It seemed
to me - I was trying to judge by the sun and its
course - but I never did know my directions there
and the sun I think bears in the position it rises so
much in the spring there that I might have been
wrong but it seemed to me like we were flying too
much south to be headed toward Berlin - but I
don't know - there were several course changes. We
had nothing to eat on the plane, arrived in Berlin - non-
stop - at about one o'clock - local Berlin time.
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Interr-: Did you go to the airport?
Powers: No - saw no names there, but I counted twelve
to sixteen heliocopters. I didn't have the number, but
I know it was more than twelve. I don't remember
exactly how many it was.
Interr-: On the flight down, was the conversation general?
Did they speak to you, did they have anything to say?
Powers: Yes, they talked a little bit, but not very much. They
were reading and I read most of the way also -- this
book that I had with me.
Interr-: All friendly though?
Powers: Uh-huh. It was completely friendly. In fact, there
is something I missed - when the akoglov (? ph)
and the interpreter left - the last time I saw them in
Moscow - I heard the Colonel say something to me
and they stuck out their hands to shake hands - the
last time I saw them.
Interr-: Both the ak (? ph) and the interrpreter?
Powers: And the interpreter. I never saw them again. Let's
see - On the eighth we arrived in Moscow - On the
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ninth, at one o'clock in the afternoon - local time -
we arrived - I would say - 50 kilometers outside
of Berlin - as near as I can estimate. With a map of
the area there I'm sure I can find the place. I was
very close to the place. I remember a few names of the
towns that were fairly near and the roads that we went
on. It took quite awhile to get into the city, -
Interr-: By car?
Powers: By car - and they took me to a - looked like a
private horn - had a nice dining room - looked like good
china and crystal and a china cabinet.
Interr-: Was this a big house?
Powers: It was a two- story house - There was -
Interr-: Brick?
Powers: Brick.
Interr-: Red brick?
Powers: Yes, Ithink so - there was - you had to go through
a gate - I don't remember what kind of fence was
around it - there were some sort of fruit trees in
the back yard - I may be able to - with a map of the
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city be able to show you pretty close to where it
was - if I can get orientated on ---
Interr-: Was it a row house or separated from all other houses?
Powers: Oh - it was just in the city block - there was several
feet over itkR to the next house - not just as close as
that -
Interr-: It wasn't a row house then - it was a separate house.
Powers: Yes. There was a little hallway downstairs and a
dining room - that was the only two places I was in
downstairs. Went upstairs - there was a bedroom
where the interpreter and myself slept that night. I
don't know where this Colonel stayed - I think he
stayed there, but he went out sometime - We were met
at the airport and he was with this man who met us.
Interr-: Did you get the man's name who met you?
Powers: No, but I would know his photograph.
Interr-: In uniform or - - ?
Powers: No, civilian clothes - everyone had civilian clothes
there except the guards and the two lieutenants that
were in the house. There was one guard just inside
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the doorway and it appeared to me that there was only
one entrance to the house and from what I could tell
by looking out the windows and so forth it seemed
that there was a guard on each side of the house with
a - I guess you'd call it a tommy gun with a curved
clip about - it looked about a foot long. The
Lieutenant was carrying a pistol - that was the only
one I saw - he was there when I first arrived and a
little later on another lieutenant arrived - a first
lieutenant I believe the rank was - both of them and
they both stayed there all night and were there until
I left the next morning. One of them set up all night
also because the interpreter played some chess with
him for awhile after I had went to bed.
Interr-: Which imte c interpreter is this? This is the one you
picked up in Moscow?
Powers: In Moscow - Yes.
Interr-: You don't have his name ?
Powers: No.
Interr-: We'll try -- maybe he'll be in the pictures.
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Powers: But he has been in the states in 1939 - I know that -
or at least that's what he told me - and the way
that came up - he had a Gurelex (? ph) watch which
he said was twenty-two years old that he had bought
in New York - And I asked him if he'd spoke English
then, and he said no - he'd studied English after
that, so there might be someway to trace that.
Let's see, the Colonel came back - he was out most
the afternoon - it seemed like or he might have just
been downstairs -- I was not allowed to go downstairs.
There was a bathroom across the hallway upstairs
that I went into and just that room and the bedroom
were the only ones I was in besides the dining room
downstairs. It was- a - I hadn't eaten anything and
didn't eat anything until suppertime. That was a long
day without food and the interpreter who was with me
all the time had not eaten either so it wasn't intentional.
..... They got some food brought in from somewhere
and a bottle of Cognac - set it on the table - the
interpreter, the Colonel and myself ate together --
drank some of the cognac - he told me that - the
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next morning I was going to be released. This was the
first time that I knew when it would take place and
there was something about - I think xx something
about a bridge mentioned - but I didn't know where
it was - no, there wasn't - that was mentioned the
next morning - nothing about a bridge that night.
Nothing about procedure or what was going to take
place. Part of the evening I spent after eating
supper - I spent reading and someone had brought
a chess board in later and I played two games of
chess with the interpreter. He won both - I went to bed
and he stayed outside and played with the Lieutenant for
along tim e - in fact, he woke me u:p when he came in
and he probably only got a hour or two of sleep that
night. It was very close to the time we had to get up.
The door was open all this time, but they were sitting
out in a little room right off the hallway.
Interr-: Remember if the windows had bars on them?
Powers: No, they had no bars on them, but they had these
wooden slats that they pull up with a rope from the
inside and let down and completely block off the view.
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They were up when I first got there and I could see
outside and see the guard walking around to the back
yard. It was a fairly big back yard and quite a
aways to the nearest building out that way. At night
they let those wooden slats down. Got up the next
morning - ate breakfast again with the Colonel,
the interpreter and myself and he told me at breakfast
time the procedure that would take place. He said
it would take place on a bridge; that we would go up the
one side, the Americans would come up to the other
side, that the negotiators - three from each side - would
go out on the bridge and talk and I think that he said
we would follow them out - and stay about ten yards
behindthem,Che said meters - approximately ten yards
behind them. And - that whenever they reached some
sort of an agreement - that someone from the American
side would come over to me and said one of their men
would go over to the American side. He didn't say
what for - and I assumed that when the American came
over and a Russian went over it was more or less
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a hostage type thing - that one had control of each
of the other and there was no mention of any exchange
or anything like that - and that was about it - shortly
after breakfast ---
Interr-: At what time?
Powers: Let's see - the night before they told me this would
take place at 7:30 - but I think we left at 7:00
and I thought it would be fairly close to where we
were, but they must have just made a mistake in
translating or in conveying the idea to me because
it was to take place closer to 8:30 I found out later,
because we were still driving at 7:30 - but it was
shortly - I think it was 7:15 when we left the house
there. We drove back along the same road that
we came in on back toward the airport for quite
a ways - for quite a distance - and at someplace along
through there we turned off and went into Potsdam -
I think it was. They arrived there a little early and I
think we made bbout three trips around a three or
four block area to kill time. They were laughing about
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it and the interpreter asked me if I knew what they
were doing and I said I think so - just too early or
something and he said - yeh. They went on down
toward the bridge - still a little early - they pulled
over and stopped for about three to five minutes - and
we pulled up at the - on the East German side of the
bridge approximately twenty-five after eight - local
time. I think we were the first car there, but there
was another car sitting, that appeared to be waiting
close to where we were, and there was also a car
following us. We pulled up, several other cars pulled
in and I couldn't get out of the car - I had to sit there
and a bunch of people started milling around. I saw
an American Captain drive up to this side of the
bridge - we were back from the bridge a little bit.
They had to move one of the cars to let this man
through. He was attache or something - he didn't
look around or nothing - he set there and looked straight
ahead until they opened the gate and he went through this
.... pass to get across the bridge. I thimght he might
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have something to do with the exchange, but he didn't.
Also, there was a British car and Britisher - I
don't remember if he was in uniform or not - who
came through.
Powers: It was just about 8:30 - maybe a little later - that
an interpreter that was with this other group -
probably the negotiators although he didn't go out on
the bridge to negotiate with them - came up to me
and asked me if I understood what the procedure was.
I told him, Yes, I'd been told. He spoke very good
English -- excellent English. He said he would run
through it again and he told me the same thing - no -
not exactly the same thing - that the three people
who wouldnegotiate would meet the three Americans in
the center of the bridge and when they reached some
sort of agreement they would signal for these two men
to bring me up. I was still in the car all this time.
He also said, Now, if you get out on the bridge, you'll
be thirty feet behind the three men in front. If things
do not come off, you are to come back with us,
understand? And I said, Yes, I understand; but I
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don't know whether I would have or not. I can't
really say, I don't think so. I would have jumped off
that bridge or got across it somewhere.
Interr-: You'd have sprinted, huh?
Powers: I'd have gotten someway (?). We went out and they
kept motioning us to come on and then to slow down.
This happened two or three times - slow down - come
on, slow down - come on until we got to approximately
twenty or thirty feet behind these men and then stop.
never was so happy to see anyone in mykioc life. .
I didn't recognize
0
I recognized him by
the position he held. I thought - I made up .my mind
was smiling and I smiled at him and he came up to the
three Russians - I guess they were three Russians -
standing there in front and I heard him say - he seeened
to be a little angry - he said, well, can I go talk to
him - something like that - and it seemed to me he
grabbed one of them by the arm - I don't know - and
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they said, yes. He walked back to me and we shook
hands, he asked me several questions - to identify
myself and so forth. I think he was pretty well
convinced that I was who I was anyways. He asked
me - do you want the questions as well as I can
xxx remember them? He wanted to know who he was
Then - that might
have shook him up a little, I don't know - but he
knew the association between the positions there. He
asked me about my dog - I told him the name of the
dog - he asked me who did the dental work on my
teeth in Germany - I told him that - he asked me who
went with me to get the dog or something like that - I
don't remember the exact question - I told him that,
how I took the dog back to Turkey and there were
several more but I don't remember.
Interr-: It was quite the routine of identifying yourself ?
Powers: Yes. And of course, shaking hands never has missed.
He was real glad to see me and I was real glad to see
him. These two men who were standing beside me
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which was the Colonel and the interpreter who came
with me from Moscow never said a word during this
whole time and they had told me before that I could
not leave their side until the Colonel turned around
and shook hands with me. And we stood there and
talked for awhile,
and I, I don't :know how long
a time passed there and someone said something
and it was all right to leave. The Colonel shook
hands and I think I shook hands with the interpreter
also, I'm not sure.
line passed the six negotiators in the middle. I didn't
notice too much what was going on on the other side.
Interr-: Did you see Abel coming the other way?
Powers: No, not at this time. We got about thirty feet on the
other side of the white line and we had to stop and
wait there, but we walked over to the side of the
bridge. I don't know why, I think we were suppose to
stand in the middle and be diplomatic about this or
something, but I guess the excitement for both of us kept
us from doing it.
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this was the first time that I knew that this was
involved and I cannot understand why they didn't
tell me because they knew that Iwould know very
shortly after that.
Powers: Maybe he didn't know, but he surely did, surely.
So I looked at Abel, standing back there, and I was
real surprised at the way he looked - I had expected
something different - I had not read too much about
him, but I had heard some and that my Father had
been trying to contact his wife and XX all this
sort of stuff.
Interr-: Where did you hear that?
Powers: My Father wrote me that. He had written a letter to
East Germany - - he had talked to Donovan. He told
me he had written a letter to East Germany and was
waiting on an answer and I don't know what all. I
remember reading something about Abel's trial but
I didn't pay too much attention to that or remember or
didn't remember too much about it, but his appearance
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surprised me. Finally, it -
still kept asking 25X1
me questions occassionally of the identification type.
Finally it was all over and we walked back to the end
of the bridge and felt very good.
Interr-: I would imagine.
Interr-: Before we stop this tape off, we, of course, will
probably try to talk in greater detail later, but as
you understand, we are attempting to get this
narrative down so Washington will have it.
Powers: Well, there's one other thing - I don't know, it seems
sort of unusual, strange or something - I didn't know
who this man was, but one of the Russians -- I
though he was maybe one of the Americans at first
because he spoke good English and it was the chief
of the group there, Shishkin (? ph) came over and
invited me to come back to the Soviet Union as a
tourist or something like that. I don't remember
exactly what I said. I might have said - I might come
back as a tourist or something like that - I don't know -
I didn't know who he was. I thought he was one of the
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Americans first because he spoke good EL3glish and -
Interr-: How could you identify him as XC Shishkin?
Powers: Someone mentioned this later, the name - I think it
wasn't there, but I think it was he that
mentioned that Shishkin had come up and invited me
to come back. Someone mentioned it since I've been
back - I don't remember who it was. Then, we
was.lked off the bridge.
Interr-: In retrospect now of the story that has been unfolded,
is there anything that you would like to put with the
narrative. We have covered it quite good in detail,
but if there is anything that you would like to put in it,
we can put it in now or we can just wait until you have
had a chance to refresh your memory by going through
these pictures and we have plenty time to go through
this again and maybe look for certain things that might
be of interest to us.
Powers: Well, I can't think of anything right now, but if you have
any questions to ask that would bring something to mind,
it ----
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Interr-: Well, I shall hold off on any questions right now
because I am most interested in putting this narrative
down on the tape. I might have some,
may have some, but it is advisable
for us to conclude our narrative now -- so I am going
to put this down as the end of Tape #14 and if we
decide to add to it we can. I'm just going to stop
now. For the present, this is concluding the
discussion between Mr. Powers and Ion
Tape #14. The time is now 4:Z8 P. M., 17 February.
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