DEBRIEFING OF FRANCIS GARY POWERS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80B01676R002200030006-1
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: T
• Document Page Count: 40
• Document Creation Date: December 15, 2016
• Document Release Date: September 9, 2003
• Sequence Number: 6
• Publication Date: January 1, 1962
• Content Type: MIN

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Tape: #5
Date: 14 February 1962
Time: 1631
Present: Mr. Cunningham
Mr. Powers
Cunningham: On this question of the military implications of your
equipment for example your personal equipment, did
they raise any question about where was the U. S. Air
Force insignia on your helmet or any of that business ?
Powers: No
Cunningham: Did they know it had been painted or -
Powers: They didn't say anything about it so apparently -
apparently they didn't notice it wasn't there or should
have been there or - but
Cunningham: How about your 1173 card, your Air Force civilian
identification card?
Powers: I had it with me.
Cunningham: Did they - well, this said on it that you were DA civ I
think.
Powers: This is Department of the Air Force civilian, right.
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Cunningham: Did they ever try to make anything of that in the course
of the discussions, as to why you were carrying such a
card as that ?
Powers: Yes, they wanted to know why.
Cunningham: What was your answer to that?
Powers: Let's see, how did this go. They - See I had told them
before that - that I was CIA and they asked me what this
card was, Department of the Air Force civilian, what
did all this mean? And I told them that it was just a card
that I had to have in order to be on the military base.
Cunningham: I see.
Powers: And they asked two or three times about this but that's
the only thing I told them as far as I can - Let's see,
what else did I have there.
Cunningham: You had a pawn ticket I remember from a - not a pawn
ticket, what am I saying a you know a watch claim ticket
or something from a shop in England as I recall.
Powers: Me?
Cunningham: At least they had amongst the exhibits a little claim check
which was supposed to have been from a watch repair
shop or something in England.
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Cunningham:
1 :1
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers.
No, I knever had a watch in a shop in England.
Is that right? Do you recall that by any chancexTxtx John?
No, there was an automobile storage ticket that the ah-
Oh yes, that was in -
Yah - where you'd put your machines.
Uh - hum
Yah, here it is right here, this card which is something
or other East Anglican Jewellers Wholesale Company.
Oh yes ah-
Yah, a calling card I guess you'd call it,
Uh. - huh. I didn't even know I had that. I've had that
thing for many years. I went to England once in 1954 I
think it was and
They didn't try to link that with the - any kind of -
Oh they asked me about England.
Uh - huh,
And ah I told them I'd been through there several times.
Uh - Huh.
And ah but they never x f1 referred to this card, but I
picked that up at the - there at one time ago when I was
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Interr:
Cunningham:
Interr:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
there because they had some jewelry that I hoped to be
able to afford one of these days and I carried it around
I guess all this time and forgot about it.
What was this one?
This is the 1173 card.
I see. Yah.
Ah - it's like this Em one here. Here's one. This is
what it looks under when it isn't chewed up. See this
would - this presumes - ah - we followed the same
pattern here of AF/civ or DAFC one or the other.
It was DAFC.
Yah.
Um - hum.
This was a fairly recent one but ah - kak yah 1960 ah -
I didn't know that I had any Turkish -
It's amazing what ah what ah
And I wouldn't have had that many dollars but ah had a
p_ulk poker game the night before and won.
How unusual. You even had Perry kx huh?
No, we were upstairs but ah -
Did they ask you about any of the US Air Force ah
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Cunningham: operations personalities who had been through there?
In other words -
Powers: Yes they ah -
Cunningham: Senior people
Powers: they did and I mentioned ah ah it happened I think around
Christmas when ah ah someone some general made
an inspection tour and I mentioned that lky they'd been
to the base I think Cardinal Spellman was tkxxx.xicac there
too and I mentioned that ah
Cunningham: The Cardnial jumped about eight feet off the ground
that day I remember.
Powers: Yah.
Cunningham: Came down in his own defense. It's understandable.
Powers: I don't know. I figured that they had the information
already and but I didn't know.
Cunningham: In the ah course of this did they seem at all interested in
any of the organization within the agency. Ah did they
ask you for example was this project organized within
the agency in any way ah that you were aware of. In
other words, the divisional side of - the headquarters.
They wanted to know where the meetings with ah - when
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Powers: I was recruited and so forth took place.
Cunningham: Uh - huh.
Powers: Ah, I told them that everything took place in hotels
and motels -
Cunningham: Um - hum.
Powers: And ah -
Cunningham: I mean in the Washington area did they say is there any
single headquarters in the Washington area where all
- - - for this project goes on?
Powers: Not that way, but they wanted to know - they $~xsar~esc
were wanting eat me to give them a place where I was
recruited and talked to these people and got all the
information and got the job and so forth and I told them
it was all in hotels. They wanted to know the names of
the hotels andEx I told= them well there were
several trips and I coulntt remember the names.
I mentioned Dupont Plaza and I don't know, I think I
only mentioned one because I couldn't remember
any other hotel names except the Roger Smith and that
was too close.
Cunningham: Did they ever focus on 1717 H?
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Powers: Never said a word.
Interr: Jim, what are your plans for tonight?
Cunningham: I'm loose. I'm which ever way you want to play what?
Interr: Well, do you want the boys to get you a hotel?
Cunningham: Yah, I think so ah - not knowing how you all were
shaped up up here ah - Itd sort of thought I might. Itll
tell you why, for this reason. I had spoken to the
group, the rest of the boys and said I would be here
when they arrived so that in affect I could say what I
had covered without - in a few words, you know. I'd
shake their hands, and I'd go and they'd stay. You know.
Interr: We have several down at the
have them add another.
Cunningham: All right. I spoke to
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and he - and I asked
him this and he said at such time as I made up my
mind to stay would I please tell him through one of you
and then he would arrange through saxxxYfcy-iw the -
bureau he calls it here to have a reservation made.
Now I don't know how that fits with what you're -
Well, we can do that, or we can do it direct.
Cunningham: Well, --- you're the boss on that.
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Interr: I'll have - get in touch.
Cunningham: Ah - did they - outside of - let's put it this way, did
they ever ask you within the agency on the terms of
the entire U2 project operation ah - you know who was the
big brain as far as planning the missions and thinking
up the whole business?
Powers: Well see I told them that ah - No, I just said that the
missions came from somewhere else and ah - they didn't
harp on that too much it didn't seems like. Ah -
let's see what was it I was thinking of? There was
something I intended to say there and I've forgotten it.
Cunningham: Well, is it in connection with these things here?
Powers: But I don't know if it's in connection with this or -
Cunningham: Did they ask you -
Powers: Oh oh yah - I told them the contact was Mr. Collins
which was absolutely correct because that was
when I first met k3mdx him.
Cunningham: Yah, I know. He ah - when that came out over the
ticker - he ah swallowed his gum about three times.
He said "god dammit didn't know he'd remember that".
I didn't figure that would do him any kxmm harm.
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Cunningham: No.
Powers: And I told them that he did most all the contacts, all
the recruiting and all the talking and -
Cunningham: Did they get down - did - amongst these various people
concerned with the operation did they get down to the
business of asking for descriptions, visible descriptions
of any of them?
Powers: Yes, they wanted descriptions of this Mr. Collins but
ah - I hadn't seen him in many years. They wanted a
description of Shelton and ah -
Cunningham: Course all they had to do was wait, we very happily
obliged them by printing his gioni picture in the newspaper.
Powers: Would his picture have been in the newspaper if -
Cunningham: I don't know, it's hard to say. I think it would have been
for this reason that ah - ah as soon as this thing broke
the news media descended on the base.
Powers: That's what I thought would happen.
Cunningham: Ah - oh - they came down from Istanbul you know,
CBS, NBC, and so forth and ah -
Powers: I gig figured they would have much -
Cunningham: He - he and
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Cunningham: the press and saying well he isn't here and you'll have
to get your answer from Washington and so forth. But
they had their names, they had Shelton's name associated
with 10-10 ah - as early as the 5th of May as I recall
which was the first - the day of the xxxzk teb x &3e? ~t`x n
by Khrushchev you see.
Powers: Urn - hum. Well did he - when he revealed this did he
mention Shelton's name or did they have the name
before ?
Cunningham: Ah - No, it was ah - I don't - that wasn't even included
the whole imphasis was on you you see. So that this
came out subsequently and the major play on his
name came in the course of the trial as I recall. If I -
Your memory is pretty good on this John, is that fairly
as you recall it?
That's right.
Cunningham: Yah, Ah - on the 10-10 thing did they give you any kind
of a quiz on the organization? Why in the hell did -
was it called 10-10 ?
Powers: Yah, they wanted to know why it was 10-10 and ah ah
I just told them that ah - well I didn't know why it was
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Powers: called 10-10. I say that each organization on a base has
different designations and I just happened to be 10-10.
Cunningham: Yah.
Powers: And actually I don't even know why it is.
Cunningham: There's an answer to that but it's so damn long and
complicated and it's so far behind me now that I'm
not sure that I could pull it out. But the basic
denominator for -- was 10.
Powers: I know of the base -
Cunningham: And then you have 10-1, 10- so and so through 10. Each ten
of unit on the base had a different -
Powers: But it was 10 dash something or another -
Cunningham: Ours is 10-10 -- the way it worked out. Did they go - well -
Did you get quizzed on the other types of aircraft that the
base had --
Powers: Yah, they wanted to know about what I had seen there.
They asked for particular types, too. They asked if
there were any B-47's, they asked if there were any
I think they called them RB 130s0 And I told them that
I had seen some B-47s and had seen some C-130s, but
as far as I know a 130 couldn't be an RB because its a
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Powers: cargo aircraft. But ah - Let's see.
Cunningham: Did they go into the question of whether these various
detachments were permanent or temporary or -
Powers: No, they didn'tmhxx ask about that.
Cunningham: Uh - huh.
Powers: And that's as well as I can remember.
Cunningham: Sure, sure.
Powers: They asked me if I knew ah ah the names of people in
some of these other detachments and I said no --
Cunningham: Um - hum.
Powers: In fact after my trial just before I went to Vladimir they
called me in to see if I could recognize some photographs
of ah ah McKone and Olmstead.
Cunningham: Um - hum.
Powers: But I had never seen either one of them before that I
could remember and they gave me a group of photographs
and I couldn't pick out anyone. And ah - just a very
short time there I can't remember what all they asked.
I remember I did tell them that ah that I thought they
were lying about shooting this aircraft down over Soviet
territory.
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Cunningham: Um - hum.
Interr: You say group of photographs, other Americans besides ?
Powers: Well, there were just photographs, I don't know what
nationality.
Cunningham: How many would you say there were offhand?
Powers: I think there were four photographs.
Cunningham: Uh - huh. Did they identify all of them to you or just -
Powers: No, they never did. They just wanted to know if I knew
any of these people and I never did know which one was
which. But I thought I recognized the Americans, I
don't know. But I told them I'd never seen any of them.
Cunningham: Were these guys in American uniforms or were they -
Powers: No, they had civilian clothes on.
Cunningham: Uh - huh. Russian type civilian clothes would you say or -
Powers: Let's see. Well I don't know, I think ah there was at
least one of the photographs with a tie but I don't know
if the man had a coat. And I think the rest of them
had the collar open, and I can't remember wkNktawu*
whether - I believe a white shirt, I'm not sure.
Cunningham: Um - hum. I gather you might have, it seems to me
I sort of got the -- on this thing. But the timing on that,
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Cunningham: when did that happen? That was what July?
Powers: First of July.
Cunningham: Ah - the ah - you had heard of this incidence I gather,
had you not?
Powers: At the trial
Cunningham: Oh.
Powers: First time. It surprises - it was really a surprise to me.
Cunningham: You - I don't know whether I recall this correctly or not,
you've already said - you explained their interest in the
communications both air-borne and others ah - was
there a great deal of interest on their part in the
composition for example of the detachment security
force. How many security officers did you have and
that sort of thing ?
Powers: They asked a bunch of questions about that which I
had no information on because I really didn't know
how many there was. I told them that the *agate was
guarded ah - which I'm sure they knew it would be ah -
that only our detachment personnel came into our
detachment and ah - it was the same all over the base,
we couldn't go into anyone elses and -
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Cunningham: And did they ask such things as do they carry guns and
all that sort of thing?
Powers: Yes they did, uh - huh. And I told them the quard at the
gate and they wanted to know what kind, and I think I
told them a pistol. They wanted to know if there were
any tommy guns or rifles. I believe they said tommy
guns, I'm not sure. Ah - and as far as I knew there
wasn't. Ah - how it was arranged and I told them a
fence around it.
Cunningham: Um - hum.
Powers: Ah - they wanted to know the different - the ah - wzkk
what do you call it, the organization detachment and I
told them the maintenance section, administrative section,
ah - security section, special equipment section, I
told them those things because I assumed they would
know that there was anyway.
Cunningham: Um - hum.
Powers: An - Let's see.
Cunningham: Let me know if you get tired Frank, because I don't want
to push you.
No, no I'm trying to think. I can't think of it all right now.
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Powers: That's about all there is.
Cunningham: Did they seem at all interested in the base commander
down there?
Powers: It seems to me they wanted to know who he Y. was, I
n k don't remember. And if they did ask a question
I'm sure I told them that ah -
Cunningham: Well you can get that -- you saved your phone book --
Powers: Yah. But it seems like they didn't. In fact, I'm
almost positive.
Cunningham: One question that has been of very general but at the
same time very specific interest to us was the amount
of questioning they may have aked you regarding the
kind of training you got in the aircraft. Ah - as far as
the number of hours you put in on flight training ah -
the conditions under which this gxg training was
conducted, the ah location of the training base, ah
any special things of - of you know that delt with
the physical locationAidox at Watertown or that delt
with the people that trained you to fly the airplane.
Did they get into the question of - for example
I 7th group you know --
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Powers: No, they never mentioned that.
Cunningham: How extensively did they question you on the training
phase and the training base?
Powers: They went over it fic fairly good. They - questioning
and I told them that I didn't know exactly where it was
but it was on this reservation there. Ah -
Cunningham: I mean did they ask jac you how you got in and out. Did
you fly in, walk in, drive in that sort of thing or -
Powers: I don't remember. Let's see. I really don't remember
whether they ah covered that or not.
Cunningham: Did they ask you for what kind of installation it was in
terms of how many buildings, what kind of runways,
or did they just seem to be more interested in knowing
that you did train 'x' =xxyL -; Rx at some place?
Powers: Seems like to me they did ask me about these things ,
but I couldntt recall at the time and I can't right now
how many buildings there was and I told them it was
a lake, dry lake.
Cunningham: Did they seem at all interested in any kind of - how you
got into the place, by special permission of somebody
or ah -
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Powers: No, they didn't seem interested in that. This is as well
as I can remember and maybe later I can think of
something that will tie in. But as well as I can remember
that wasn't mentioned.
Cunningham: Did they get into the question of any personalities in the
training phase that you might have come in contact
with like say Kelly Johnson or -
Powers: They didn't aks - they didn't mention any $x names, I
think they asked for people's names but I have a very
hard time remembering people's names anyway so ah -
Cunningham: How convenient.
Powers: I don't remember, it seems like to me that they weren't
so much interested in the training of learning to fly
the airplane, but the intelligence training that I had
gotten.
Cunningham: I see.
Powers: And ah I told them that I had never received any
intelligence training. That I was just a pilot contractor.
And I didn't mention that I had been through this ah ah
course down ---- They don't know about that ---
Cunningham: Did they quiz you on that in connection with the special
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Cunningham: equipment in your survival packet. I mean the twenty two -
Powers: They - oh that twenty two. They went over item by item
what was this for and what's this used for. They came
out - you know these little fire starters for igniting wet
wood, it was an incinerator device with the insinuation
that you can set fires to buildings with it and so forth
and this twenty two ah
Cunningham: Was used to kill women and babies with I suppose --
Powers: Well, it was for xx assassination, but I could never
convince them that the only thing I wanted that gun for
was to hunt with.
Cunningham: Hunt quietly with.
Powers: Yah. That's what I tried to tell them but even during
the trial this judge interrupted me I think when I was
trying to explain that I only intended to use that gun to
hunt with and he mentioned that I can't do much hunting
at 25 meters or something like that.
Cunningham: tiaqc Yah, I remember that.
Powers: But ah - they wanted to know why I didn't bring a rifle
for hunting and I told them that you couldn't carry a
rifle in the cockpit of an airplane.
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Cunningham: At least you didn't have that hand cannon that
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used to have --
Powers: Oh I'm very very thankful I didn't have this little 38
with the special ammunition.
Cunningham: Yah That had been - by the way, were you
aware of that John? That special ammunition?
Yah.
Cunningham: I know that was one of the things we were jumping on
the day afterwards or so ah with the special rounds in
it you know the 38 --
Powers: See they didn't seem to press this twenty two too much
because -
Cunningham: Did they ever ask you if you were going to use it to
kill yourself with?
Powers: No, I don't think so, I don't think they did. I don't
remember them asking me that; I don't think so. Ah
of course the pin, the needle and the pin they -
Cunningham: What ever became of that silver dollar, we never could
figure out?
Powers: I threw it away.
Cunningham: What on the way down?
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Powers: Uh - huh ---
Cunningham: Oh I see, gee you were a busy guy. ------
Powers: I was trying to think of things and I couldn't think
very well at all.
Cunningham: How did the needle stay then? Did that come out of it?
Powers: Well I unscrewed the little ring that was screwed in
the top of the cork and poured it out in my hand, threw
the dollar wx away, and put the - dropped it in my pocket
thinking that even if they did see it, it's just a pin that -
but when they found it they immediately were very
pleased. Seemed like that they suspected something
like that, and they sort of examined me there before they
did find it for - They looked in my mouth, my ears, my
hair, and even made me drop my trousers and -
Cunningham: And inspected your x&&xx rectum and so fkAix forth
Powers: Yah, then they --
Cunningham: Course they've seen what happened at Nuremberg.
Powers: I had that pin for several hours until I got to Sverdlovsk
and I thought maybe I could have kept it longer but this
one man found it in the pocket and they made me take
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Powers: all my clothes off there. They searched the clothes
two or three times and on about the third time they
found it.
Cunningham: You mean looking for special things sewed in the
linings and stuff.
Powers: Yah, they felt all around the collars and -
Cunningham: Ana Who were the people who did the searching? Were
they police types or -
Powers: Well they vx were military I think. They - well many
people there have uniforms .
Cunningham: Yah, just like England.
Powers: But there seemed to be no - as I noticed the civil police
in Moscow, there was none of that kind of uniforms at
all, the military type uniforms.
Cunningham: One thing that we were trying to get a make on that
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
particular day through various and sundry sources was
how soon after you had arrived at Sverdlovsk did the
special adxxxxx aircraft come to get you?
It wasn't a special aircraft.
It wasn't a special xiammodtx aircraft.
It was a commercial aircraft.
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Cunningham: It was, really? What kind, do you recall?
Powers: A twin jet ah I don't what it's called but ah the -
Cunningham: The big, great big mother wasn't it?
Powers: No, it was a twin engine jet - the first Soviet jet
aircraft, airline I think. I'm sure it wasn't a special
aircraft because we were in a little compartment
to ourselves but they were ah ah other people in the
back,
Cunningham: You mean like passengers.
Powers: And it was just ah it was oh 30 minutes or an hour after.
Well I don't know -----
Cunningham: The reason being that we had fitx attempted to
establish through the embassy in Moscow which we
thought we had done - there's a special air mission
group kbooci there in Moscow which flies the important
people around and that afternoon the embassy had
reported that they had discovered the - one of these
aircraft that is normally there, a special air mission
airplane was gone and it - they discovered it having
returned again that evening and by virtue of calculating
when they first missed it and when it came back they had
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Cunningham: ridimx estimated that it had been dispatched up to
Sverdlovsk because it was T 104 as I recall which is a -
Powers: Well I don't know what -
Cunningham: big - this is a great big bdx ckty bloody airplane that -
this - bigger than xx a 707.
Powers: Well I haven't seen it so I ---
Cunningham: Ah well you know like a ----
Powers: But ah - it's the one -
Cunningham: If you had to estimate how many people it xmx
unbut carried what would your guess have been?
Powers: Well they had three seats on at least one side and I
think maybe two on the other I?m not sure and this
compartment had seats here, three seats here,
three seats here and a table in the middle and I think
there were only two seats ah the row of seats was two
seats wide on the other side and we were right up near
the front of the compartment.
Cunningham: That's a fairly standard configuration.
Powers: Ah there was a stewardess on the airplane and the
pilot was not in military uniform or anything but ah-
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Cunningham:
Cunningham:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunningham:
--- in other words.
And they kept the curtain pulled but there were a lot
of people in the back. When they la brought me out to
the airport, stopped at the gate a while, drove me out
to the fmmmmt front - I think it had two loading ramps,
one in the back and one in the front.
Yah, that's the one ---
And hurried me very fast, made me run up the steps
into the compartment.
Would you say it was about the size of la a DC 4, C 54,
or would it be bigger than thatR in your recollection?
rl- ~~.
Well its a good sized aircraft but only two1
Yah the inboard mount is --
Uh - huh built into the wings. I think it's the first jet
airplane they've built - or a jet passenger airplane.
But I really don't know how big it was. I'd say maybe
bigger than a C 54 from looking at it from the outside,
the fuselage -
About the size of the 121 you came back in do you think
Oh, I don't think it was quite that long, but - see I couldn't
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Powers: see inside, I sat there ands saw it through the car
window they had the curtains pulled around but I could
see through the front and ah but I feel sure it was a
passenger airplane because there were a lot of people
in the back and they didn't let anyone come through there.
Cunningham: I gather though they had sent somebody down from Moscow
presumably to escort you back had they or -
Powers: Well I don't know where these people - when I got to
Sverdlovsk these people were there, and they searched
again and that's where they found this needle, this pin.
Cunningham: Ac&. And they quizzed you did they about tlm the needle
right then and there or did they ---
Powers: No, they didn't quiz me about it there - in fact, they were
trying to establish who I was and this is the first time
they had an interpreter there to speak to.
Cunningham: Good English?
Powers: Not very good, so he wasn't -
Cunningham: Sort of like out in the boondocks you didn't have --
Powers: I think he was a local - probably a local man who just
probably a local KDB man that spoke English but he
wasn't - it wasn't his job to speak English. He accompanied
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Powers: me to Moscow also, there were five of them. One was a
military x x uniform. I think major or something
like that. The other - maybe there were just four , there
were just four of them.
Cunningham: Frank let P. me ask you one question which I'm sure there
will be shades of this question that people will try to
ask you for a long time to come but in connection
with this which - the fact that you retained the needle
there, what did you retain it for ?
Powers: Well -
Cunningham: Why did you not throw the whole shabang away?
Powers: Well I thought maybe I might need it.
Cunningham: Did you seriously at any point during that brief interlude
consider using it?
Powers: Well I thought about itx xtkk in the parachute descending
and well it's a pretty hard decision to make. The only
reason I took the thing was I wanted to be able to retain
the thing as ak long as possible and I expected to be
tortured, expected - that was the big fear in my imx
mind, and I wanted to try to have that in case this stuff
got started and I would id have used it in a case like that.
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Cunningham: I have a particular interest in that hzimxxx because I
sent that out myself just prior to the flight I recall
having sent it out - - - -
Powers: It was - I know we didn't have it very long.
Cunningham: No it was in my safe for several days, and I toyed with
the idea of not andodpgx sending it and then I decided I
would after talking with some of the people who were
concerned with wi& making it. And one of the things
that we were anxious to get was the opinion from the
1 field- ah one of the things we were anxious in getting
was the reaction of you pilots to the device since we'd
zdx already had these other ones out there which I gather
weren't to terribly popular.
Powers: No, I think most people refused to carry them.
Cunningham: Yah. There's a humorous antidote I thinker John,
which I suppose can go on here about one of the boys
who had a habit of eating lemon drops ah this was
0
you remember little
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used to keep a supply of these with these English lemon
drops in his pocket and this was up at -- so he'd sneak
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Cunningham: these damn things and climb out you know and pop open and
shove it in and shut it up and xxk suck on it because he
was a guy who used alot of sugar and when he was
descending or anything like that he'd fix fill his mouth
with these, well one day he was - he reached in and
fortunately for him the drops were X2?& rough to the
touch and he'd even take his damn glove off you know
to get them on occasion pick up training flights or anything
like that, he wouldn't admit this of course while ?x he
was working for us but on this one particular occasion
he reached in and got what he thought was a lemon
drop and he was about oh 25, 000 feet or something like
that and he pulled this tH ng out and he just IDappnadad
happened to look at it he said he didn't know why and
he hadn't taken his glove off and he looked down and
by God it was one of our little friendly devices and was
getting set to pop it in and he said k do you know something
he said I never sucked those damn drops he said I always
chewed them put them in and come right down on -
He said I went back and I raised holy ned with ah whoever
the entail officer was at that point and ah and I can't even
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Cunningham: remember, I remember the guy, he was a lieutenant
colonel and he said, well
I thought you'd need it
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so I put it in your flight suit and ah sneaked it in. Course
that was one of the reasons by the way, why we really
started reconfiguring this whole concept was knowing
that guys eat candy and the damn thing had a
configuration like candy. We wanted to get something
that was not the same configuration where you actually had
to go through a rehearsal in order to use it.
Powers: We had a briefing on that ---
Cunningham: Did you - you elected this didntt you, you yourself?
Powers: Yes, I chose to take it. Well, it was as
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told us, in case of torture you might want to do this,
you might want to use it, if we - and it sounded good to
me, I figured that maybe in case of torture I would want to.
And the possibility of being able to use it as a weapon
he suggested that and --
Cunningham: Ah I used to - I told Kelly today we were talking about it
in the car coming up6 I said that it it was sort of a -
he'd asked me some questions about it and I said that it
was like a hat pin, you could get on the elevator with it
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Cunningham: and stick some guy in the seat of the pants with it as you
were going up and by the time you got to the third floor
he'd be through. He said gee that was kind of rapid
wasn't it, and I said yah,
Powers: Well I think they estimated in their tests of that ah ah
poison I guess it was a minute or something like that.
Cunningham: Yah, that's the outside time. Its all related to blood
circulation. How long it takes the blood to get to the
heart.
Powers: Oh well, it would have taken just a fraction of mine at
that time, my heart was just - but I'd never had any
instructions to use it and it'd never been told that it
was necessary to use it, it was strictly up to to me.
Cunningham: Well this of course was the whole thing which I suspect
has not been fully understood by the press, and I'm not
sure they wanted to xA understand it all the time, was
that in a Christian Judaic civilization the concept of
manditory suicide is completely unhospitable with the
whole orientation of that particular civilization. I can
see why it would Iaxxg kx perhaps seem more reasonable
to them, with their particular views on human life, but
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Cunningham: there - this is the one thing for example when the press
would make a hoop-de-do about this, I used to say it's
really too bad we can't defend ourselves in some way
because it is - it never was intended that it be anything
but optional.
Powers: Uh - Huh. Well, that's the instructions I received, could
take it or leave it; and I had never had any instruction to
if anything happens, you must kill yourself, nothing like
that. It was -
Cunningham: I'm sure they wanted to know that though, did they not?
As to what kind of instructions you had with this particular -
Powers: They asked uh - huh, and I told them that also, but I don't
think they - they probably tried to make it appear that I
was supposed to, I don't know, cause that's the way
their question went seems to mexxKBbn9LimpdirA it was
implying that that I was supposed to kill
myself and not as I k had said optional. And I
told them that in case I was tortured I would have used it,
I would - and I couldn't stand the tortures and so forth.
That scared g me quite a bit because talking to
0
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he told me that there would definitely be tortures,
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Powers: in fact, now this is - I don't remember just when this
briefing came about, but it was either before my flight
or Bob's flight ooo~hl earlier.
Cunningham: Did you sit in on those briefings, I gather you did most of
kbn3m the boys ---
Powers: Which briefing?
Cunningham: Well I mean - say if you were on the barrel but you
weren't going to fly the next day but and yet you were on
x them for staging like this and there sxa was a briefing
going on on a particular s Rx mission with no bar -
no particular reason why you couldn't sit in on the mission
briefing on thatis particular pilot whoever it was.
Powers: Uh what, wait a minute I don't understand.
Cunningham: Well for example, say that
had been flying the 25X1
day before and you had been next in line to go, and you
know you go in for your consolidated mission briefing,
there's no reason why you couldn't sit on that briefing
even though you weren't going to be the pilot was there?
Powers: Well on on our local flights that was all right, but on the
others they - only the people concerned. But on my
particular flight at one time or the other, every pilot just
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Powers: about had gotten briefed on it, I think, except maybe
ho couldn't possibly have flown it because he
was to bring it back -- The rest of them - there were
two or three of us, I think two, and I believe it was
I get - I keep mixing
up and that's because
we got briefed on the flight just k shortly before that.
I'm almost positive it was
and miself. Had the
briefing there of the possible flight groups. This was one
of them, the one that I took. Another was the penetration
coming out toward the Black Sea somewhere, I don't
remember the exact route. And I think that was the two
that we studied, and we were to study the maps and
F ' h1w
a to information that wasn't on the maps that we put
on there, like an airfield and so forth that would help
us navigate. And both of us did this and part of it was in
my b ? handwriting and part of it was in I I'm pretty sure
it was Barnes. They asked me about that because they
had a handwriting expert supposedly although they were
wrong in some cases and they knew that I didn't do all of
this and I told them it was probably the navigator because
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Powers: I got briefed just before the flight and I didntt have time to
do all of this because I was busy. They k didn?t know that
I had studied the route maybe a week before.
Cunningham: Did they ever indicate to you in the course of your debriefing
Frank, that they were concerned more about this
particular flight than about any other one. In other words,
any imprints that you could draw from what they said
that you were coming close to pay dirt in their estimate
by virtuire of the fact that you came to Sverdlovsk.?
Powers: No, they didntt anything like that. But -
Cunningham: I mean that would have had to have been an slip on their
part.
Powers: Um - hum. The only things they said was they waited so
long so that they would know what my intentions were
I mean they - when I got 1, 000 miles in they didn't know
I was a spy but when I got 1200 in they did. But when the
C 54 got half a mile in or if it was across the border,
you know they shot down in Turkey - Turkey
Resevoir, that was a spy. So I coulnit quite correlate that.
Cunningham: Did they ever say anything about the fact that you were
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Cunningham: on a more or less single compass heading as being a
contributing factor to their ability to get you?
Powers: Oh, this was mentioned. They said they would have
gotten me earlier except for my maneuvering, but that
is impossible because there are practically all straight
lines, but ah -
Cunningham: That's what I mean. Did they - they never said to you
that the straight lines made it real easy for us.
Powers: No, but they just said that they would have got me
earlier but for my maneuvering. Now the only way
that they could have done that earlier would've been
all this maneuvering took place mmoyx maybe ten minutes
or -
Cunningham: But they if - they were implying that you were doing a
dicing mission almost compared to what 3& you were doing
then I ga x gather huh, you know, criss cross, dicing.
Powers: I don't know, they didn't have that on their radar that they
showed me, but I think this was a release that they made
and I - it was mentioned during the investigation, they
jc told me that they had me all the time and that they would
have shot me down earlier except for my turning but I knew
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Powers: that was a lie because bps there was only - well most
of this was straight lines and long straight lines, and just
before this particular place there were a couple of pretty
good turns and that was within the last maybe 10 or 15
minutes.
Cunningham: Did they ask you why your flight took the particular turn
it did and everything, did they ask you about your
knowledge of targets beyond Sverdlovsk, and why did you
want to go to -- and so forth?
Powers: There was part of the map missing beyond Sverdlovsk.
Everything that was noted on the chart, they wanted to
know what it was -
Cunningham: You mean all the A B C D -
Powers: Yah, they wanted to know all that, and they very
meticulously took down this is a little figure there,
elevation took that down -
Cunningham: Your ------
Powers: They took that down, and they had, let's see, it was an
interesting point I was going to say, and I forgot.
Cunningham: If 3rx= your' re getting tired don't push yourself.
No, I'm not tired but I seem to think of something and
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Cunningham: And ah ah it looked like they were just trying to add a
little bit of you know -
Powers: Mystery
Cunningham: Cloak and dagger to this whole jazz.
Powers: They - they were very curious about that and I told them
I didn't know what it was, they thought maybe it was some
some sort of signal, maybe some code in it or, I don't
know what they thought. I had them going on that and
How would you know who they people were that you were
supposed to meet? They - I would know. They would
know me, and they'd see the airplane come in or come out
and they'd take over the airplane and -
Cunningham: Did they seem at all interested in the composition of
the group that was make - meet you, in other wards
would this be like a staging, in other words xkbax another
airplane like the 130s that would be there, what would
happen to airplane when it got on the g ground, any
of that sort of jx thing did they ask about?
Powers: They asked x these things and I only told them that all
I know was that I was supposed to go there and land
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Powers: and that I would be met, and what they did with the airplane
after that I had no idea but I knew I wouldn't fly it any
farther. And didn't know who would meet me -
Cunningham: Did they ask if you'd have any kind of alternate on account
Powers:
Cunningham:
Powers:
Cunnincri-- .
socked in,
of weather if you got up there and found
where would you have gone ?
I don't think they did.
And ah wxk what's his name -
Ah let's see.
-- -y u1 #-iub a alan't come into the act, do you
know the other airfields up to the North,
that we had looked at one time ?
P
owers: I don't believe they mentioned that at all. - asked or
even thought about idxzkxDjk my landing any where $$a
other than there, except in ang ehemergency.
But I can't remember them mentioning ids} it, an alternate
airfield.
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