CIA CAREER SERVICE BOARD

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 27
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: August 18, 2000
• Sequence Number: 15
• Publication Date: November 5, 1953
• Content Type: MIN

Approved For Releasa2001/OLO FPEN3T6114169,914
Security Information
* 5
OGC HAS REVIEWED.
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 ? IAGONFlaDaallal.-5-0
Approved For Releaser2001/09/06SEERETP80-01826R0005Qr 40015-0
Security Information
In Attendance:
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
BOW
Acting personnel Director, Alternate for
the Personnel, Moho?
25X1A9a Member
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
time, Alternate for the DIG/P?
Lane= R. Houston, General Counsel
Specie Assistant to t A
'MEM AD/Commnnications, Member
1111111111111111 Chief, Administrative Staff, DO
Inntington. Sheldon AD/CI, Member
Clairmsno Isailastive Teak F"Ce
Lawrence K. White, Acting DD/A, Moab=
=MI Special Assistant, DOI Alternate for
the WI, Member
Lye Secretary
SECRET
Approved For Release 2043449/0/ograiginRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Approved For Release 2001/09/0Skier80-01826R000400140015-0
4,curity InformatIon
ty
of the
I NDZ
? * ? ? ? II ? ? ? $ ? ? 4) ?
? ? ? ? 41 ? S 0
**** ** ? ? ? ? 0 ? ? *
Ce ? ? ? ***** ? ? ? ? ?
on csreez'iste 0 ? ?
? ? ? ? ? 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I ? ? ? ?
SECRET
Approved For Release 20.91/09/91 :rpVertRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
acurity rt or a
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Sect! 'y InformIlion
The 13th Meeting of the CIA Career Service Board convened
p.m., 5 November 19531 in the DCI Conference Roam, Mt. Lymen B. KirIatri
residing.
4105
Gentlemen,we oome to order.
t item on the agenda la the mdnutee of the last meeting of the
eny corrections or amendments? If not, the minutes stand Approved.
pacific requeet of Colonel White we are going to take up Item 3
3 is Tab al "Tenure, Job Security and Reduction in. Faroe."
has same fairly strong views =Tab Fa, which I gather is
el White is tied up with the Director on a. budget hearing
Join this meeting later.
to Item 3, however, I'd like to read a
y so that you can take it along with you,
read it now I'll just read it off, because it has the
Jab Security."
25X1A9a
toh
Job Tenure
of Conversation between Messrs. James
in Office of Secretary
Job Security, was then read
TAb ,AN . S .
he record by Mr. Ki
Tab Got "Tenure, Job Sal
note the views of the
meeting for ceni
MR.
25X1A9a
retc
as that
ity and Reduction in Force"
retery of Labor. Having thus
on Tab G.
very directly to
is interesting to
myself I will open
that four days after this paper was dittoed General
some of the top people, decided that as a atter
the Agency would not go into a reduction in force procedure at this point.
told thereen agreement at the meeting to establish a type
Cahell asked that a paper be presented an
which was done thrc Colonel White. Now General Cabal has looked that over
Iv= his views cm it back to Personnel through Colawsliflatte's office and
tempted to put into apiece of paper the concept that he wanted conveyed
in this Agency Rsaflignment Board. That piece of paper will be sent to Colonel
Approved For Release 2001/09/06CIAQDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security information
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 CIA-RID,P80-01826R0005.00140015-0
Security Information
io
be in liii
by
tauorrov. So it does have a very definite bearing on that is contained here.
25X' A9a
Could you give us a general idea as to how it runs?
Yes, sir. The first principle would be that it an organizat on-
el element had an overage that it would first attempt, within the organisation, to
reassign that person to whatever job might exist within that organization. In that
endeavor the office would be free to designate whomever it might wish to try to
reassign. I refer there to the low man on the totem pole, but it wouldn't necessar-
lil.yh$Vitobetb*tfl*n. If that effort fails then the office would certify to the
1, Personnel Office the name of an individual which the office again would **loot as
being the overage in that particuler category. The Personnel Office would then
attempt to effect a reassignment within the rest of the Agency. If the Personnel
Office was unable to obtain on agreeable reassignment end there, vas a job that the
Personnel Office felt could be used for a reassignment, then the Agency Reassignment
Board would be convened, at which Board would be a representative of the DIVA, DD/I,
Como, and Training, with the Personnel Director as the Chairman.
Nov the Pereennel Director would recommend an assignment tat the 0
ce
homing the overage and the office to which the assignment vas to be made would have
no vote in determining whether or not the assignment should be made. If the Board
voted that the reassignment should be mode then the receiving office would be expect-
ed to come with a 52, aril the ooze road be settled? If, however, there was a
disagreement end the Board couldn't agree that the pereon should be assigned as
' recommended, then the matter would be referred to the Deputy DCI for his review end
the decision.
KR.
25X1A9a
a unanimous de
KR. Yee.
25X1A9a
MR. its only in cos* of disagreement that it eves on Apt
KR. It could be either vay. They could. say, "No, we don't
think this should take place or there could be a disagreement, but whatever
: wou3A be the result of the Board. consideration, that they couldn't make up their
mind or they were all of one mind that it shouldn't be made, then the Personnel
Director woad be required to send. the case to the Deputy DCI who would then review
it and if he determined thet the Board had acted properly and. that there was no
? Could I interject one thing? At that point can there be
by the Board that the reassignment vas not appropriate?
-
Approved For Release 200109/06 -CIA; P8Q-01826R000500140015-0
oacurify Intormation
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 :
Security Information
petal.
25X1A9a
into effect, and the individuel finally selected is not necessarily the ma recom-
mended by the office concerned.
25X1A9a Not nace wily, that is right,
steps here every effort is being :nee here, by this proposal, to
who ist conelderedtq the office having the overage to be the one that they should
lose in this process.
P80-01826R000500140015-0
the Personnel Office would thou have to go book
having the overage sod determine, an the basis of the com-
individual, the =Aloha IS the by men on the totem pole.
MO=
At that point you put a limited reduction in force mechanism
25X1A9a MR. IM An informal reduction
' is given as to whether it should be the men recommended or =other individual, on
the basis of retention rights1
25X1A9a
MR. UM That is right. ThentbefileoftJ
' to General *shell for a decision to termitate.
25X1A9a MR' EM And no one makes a, deciaion to te
cit
17
25X1A9a KR.
, brief, is the way he gave it to us. We have attempted to write it in that fashion.
As I say, it will come to Red for Agency-wide coordination and 413reilbedY will have
a chance to speak their piece.
25X1A9a SUP? by step it's the some procedure, except for the final
decision, as was generally Weed on in the meeting with General Cabello,
MR. SBUDON: Res he the legal right at that part/
NB=
25X1A9a
The General Counsel has advised General Cabell that he
' would have the legal authority to terminate in the interest of the United States
or in the interest of national security.
On this procedure? /bat is correct, yes, sir.
d be referred
That
in
25X1A9a MR. He would use I of ge for his suthori
said that there certainly vu no legal barrier to the Director taking this action
under 1 of 20, but that extreme caution** recommended to him on it,
25X1A9a MR. I folDeoted that.
MR. EAI: I understand then if John is the man Who was declared
available for reassignment and for whom no suitable assigtment OSA be found, that
I would point out to you that the General Counsel's opinion
3
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security initri.-.,;L;,3;
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
-
25X1A9a
MR.
KR.
since vs have
Director blpre the
be given the job and be terminated. 25X1A
That ? correct.
It would still be restricted to a liaited area.
That is right.
I don't went to cross up anyone here but it *eens to
far into the procedure, tbst not only does the Deputy
rit but the Assistant Director also has the authority
for a simple adminietri: tiring. It has nothing to do ivith 1 of Se? That iesy
) staple motion I haven't heard of this necessity to rely on the Director seal=
Iity to fire as a final step because at that point I think you are in your noral
procedure of reduction in force. I may have missed eomething along the line here.
25X1A9a MR. EM I think I probably was at float in not specifying that the
only people who would *ow under this would be people who are excess but otherwise
satisfeatory. It points out in the first statement that procedures for terminating
25X1A
1 per:tonna considered unsatisfactory are contained in Agency Notice
these are people on shon you could not, on the basis of everything that is
record end everything you know, substantiate a case of discharge for cause.
25X1A9a
Kl?
the Director's re
25X1A9a MR.
understanding General
elitablishad.
25X1A9a KR.of determining boy lett
reduction in force p
MR. KIRKPATRICK: This same procedure be used, could it not, for
eliminating any employee who doesn't oome up to standards':
!,25X1A9a mot, If you have en evloyee who doesn't awe up to standards: I
don't think you have to go to this device because there you imald be fluffing
off views an unmet efectory employee to SO= other office. Did I misunderstand
Yon
We could 'substantiate a case for elimination without using
to the
licy matter, it is my
ion in force procedures
This would be a metabeadela neaps
stating vs are applying a
25X1A9a
rocs
MR. KINPORICK
KR, Ifheisu
give him charges,
him a chance to answer, if
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 :CIA'.-R480-01826R000500140015-0
Security Iniormation
Approved For Release 2001/09196 :CIA7RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
Vs just "mat
case with tgiatica where we had no problem. We charged the
guy *ad be bad a cbance to
procedures.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: is every unusual calm,
nted that you can do it.
is going to be separated through normal
(tot, than, Charlie
been discussing is pi
se
of the Vetere/1s Preference Act -- which is in the process
tons, develop procedures for reduction in f
25X1A9a
?
Tee, t we are not
ly, however Kirk, we are sorting up?againat the ti that
. be *hanged wee are work1ng AP A *et of reduction in force
104 it ve had. to future.
MR. There is perhaps one reason for app
a. The Directorts action is final regardless of the Veterans
by there are certain gimmicks in it that complicate any other
for a satisfactory employee who is a. veteran. that masa a
25X1A9a
authority in
Preference Act, wb
separstionproced
lot of sense, too.
25X1A9a MR.
V
olioy
0
t.
MR of
iii this out so that ye would, not be before the
t of veterans preference.
comments or questions about Tab Gt
NS.= have one, Kirk. I do have this commeot to make about
d with General CaheLl
25X1A9a
tenure. Despite current conclusion* reached by M. Mitchell, the paper does have
tenure in the title, but I don't believe the paper reflect* a great des/ of study
the problem of tenure, partially due to time limitations snd some other factor.
ainly true that over the years in Government there has: been a, tendency
nt that all career services groat tenure by virtue of statute. Now I am
ing, at his Point, that we have that, but I do advocate that we give
study s particular phase of tenure. I believe we should., for example,
Commission and discuss our problems with them in term of
they might heves and that vs shouldn't just drop the
think there are possib4 other sources of assistance we
5
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-RDi80-01826R000500140015-0
r-'fcilrity information
Approved For Release 2001,109/06,: CIAAIPP80-01826R000500140015-0
curity Information
might get. We could come upwth a lot more information on the ubject of tenure
by devoting some time to it. / vould like, in effect, to add a recommendation here
that possibly the MA be requested to study this problem further and prepare another
presentation on the subject of tenure for this grove
MR. RAM in what mg do yet/think this is inadequate/ Jan?
25)41 A9a MR. 1111111 Simply this: I an not trying to say whether this is inadequate
or for the Vetere:4s Preference Act we hare no legally restraining barriers
asfar as frivolous or unwise terminations of individuals, =political terminations
are concerned. Over the years, *gain, all. other Government career services have
found it neoessarY, and the Congrees has felt it vise to base their weer services
and tenure in those services on statute.
25X1 9a MR
Including the Civil Service Commies
On
MR Nov I an not advocating'. have the same thingas Civil 8.rvice
1 t s enough meat there so that we should look at it a little more.
MR. WIRKPORICKI Doesnq that naturalli fall in line, snd if we go forward
or any legislation that will be a fundsmental part of it? What is to be accomplish.
by a further study of the subject?
AX1A9a
point
MR. 1111111 It'll really a study= new
not teckle4 sufficiently, in my opinion
?
MR. EIMNPATRICKI Well, to my mind, and melte my thinking isn't suffic
isticated. on this, bet it falls into categorise?his perfOrmanoe being
and. his conduct being correct, and his tenure is for a career; and the
Director Sets UP the procedures Whereby his career is furtbared or terminated in
accordance vith standees which are not arbitrary or 001Pricious.
25XIA9a MR. 1111111 That is true, that is vtere we are today. All I gnawing
is that other *veer Services in Government have found that inadequate.
25X1A9a
.;)
seemed quite
45X1A9a
MR
dieours
25;0A9a
On in this paper, and I
The part of the discussion markedconclusions" here,
MR.
lusions generally.
an conclusions in general rather than
concluded vo
per bears the title, that
ve consider whether or not we Should get some conclusions on recommendations on
- 6 -
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA4DP80-01826R000500140015-0
Sccuriiy information
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : clipk780-01826R000500140015-0
FicCUrity information
that subject.
5X1A9a
reach for legislative action to establith career staff limitations. Maybe I am
wrong *bout that.
5X1A9a
the ippropriate thing to do. I think the other cncLu.siO
e no questioes on the 1ecZ1rrI36$ttOn$. The point I en
point is germane to this piper we are acting on now?
It'sgermane in that the job tenure is used in the title a
re are no recommendatione bearivg on job tenure. So it is
2 X1A9a
the piper, altho
/ germane to that
Than I would liminate subject title.
MB. K ATRICKI I think we have studied to the point where we ought to
grinding out of piper? this
t up and working and let the General Counsel's Office start drafting
on. You're going to get your tenure in that way. If you need turth
I am sure the Personnel Office files must be bulging at the sews
few every Government source.
iew of the rest of the Beard on Mr. 'a reernend*ttOn
be added to this piper suggesting that Al through
1 Office, p are ',further study on tenure',
25X A9a MR. I think in Tab I yau have to meet this thing anyway,
without regard to 0. Tenure is inevitably apart of the proposal for an equivalent
of * uniform is the subject of rt, awl maybe more Study on tenure
needs to be done in that connection, not in connection with Tab G.
25 1A9a MR. Tenure can be eonveyed in a number of different ways* by
contract, by legislative ion, by strative action, or what have you. Tenure
just a thine, it is A state and there are varying states of tenure *11 the
zero to the ultimate tenure, I believe, in the United States, which is the
the Supreme Court which is *job for lite and he can be removed only
nt. I know of no other job in the United States comparable to that.
timate in tenure but not the absolute tenure.
NR. KICK: I sense it is the view of the Board of not nd6i. the
25X1A9a
7
Approved For Release 2001/09/00:: CIAADP80-01826R000500140015-0
riry Information
25X1
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
rity information
25X1A
25X1A9
25X1A9
25X1A
25X1A9a
i are doing at the present
going somewhat contrary to tha
r an action 'which is contrary
fo
MR.
641141) after the
with the re-
for reduction in force" period which is really the basic thing that vs
e reaching for.
MR. NIRO'
let's go on
ousel= on Item 2 snyi
mitted three suggesti
Any objection to that recommendation' We will have it
that Colonel
the agenda.
4 is the definition of Career $
: "A, being the one presently evressed
et
for the die
-
We have sub
BeogulaMea
"11 as Suggested by the Legislative Task Force in its report of 13 August.
being ',Proposal, 'which I understand embodies the combined efforts of Messrs.
ldon$11111111111111111
MR. =DON: Before we get to "C -- in reviewing this per the word
still Something of a stumbling block to people I hare di used it with.
impliostion of a senior level which I don't think is intended to be
autreyett by the Mei"
MR. =REP
people vho object to it probably
Agency in that "itaff employee in its b
MR. ZDONi Is that thoroughly accepted?
8
Approved For Release 2001/09/06.:_CIA-1DP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security information
Approved For Release 2001/094ECCUIDP80-01826R00Ci500140015-0
Security Information
contrant entrt
It is what ve have
eta
d to hit
Could I have the views
vhieh do you prefer?
I still prefer "B vith the word
25X1A9a
)4R.
be done by a footnote wouldn't
itseU by the edition of stlY words.
to which definition they prof ?
r es
",",but that is mypeZon
KIRKPATRICK:
of hands by those vho? prefer
2 X1A9a
25X1A9a
VO
by "A".
t.
I like "B" follrnred. by
e fatr4
r "C"t
rd's sweater7
that you want to
quitabe ashlar:, that is what it is.
I don't think you can ita
&U after" ? Yitin are talking abou
lob refer over
9
Approved For Release 2001/09/080-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
Serwiee
Approved For Release 2001/09/065EMP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
and the pror
25X1A9a KR.
MR
is what the
"Ws is the Career
is.
ee
"A" is the program.
ou re not talking about *programa you're trying to define
oh as cion
bars, of views, 1 'wouldlike to find it what the major
NB and Cs
is it about sCs that makes you prefer it over "B"?
Ni Well, le 1 have talked to, including my CloseAssoc
the word "dedicated", as such is a horrible word
be thing into the wrong context. We Set back into the
electionsentence of se. $o that is taken care of. I don't
because that is also covered by selection, because
question of obligation is also settled in "Cu
"B". As to what you are going tovert in is alOo covered in se. The question
satisfaction of a job well done for my money isn't necessary. I te4n't
in the Obligations part of it myself but we accepted the obligations pert of
amendment at the last meeting. I thirik that is gratuitous, too. When you
'0 you tab, the liabilities and meet* as they come. $o 1 think it's a
impler statement which actually odies sll of the ideas that are necessary.
25X1 a MB. I= As nOn..mertber or the Board but member at the Agency who
covered by one of these definitionS, I think Cs is an inadequate sort
Sr,
25X1
25X1 9a
25X1 9a
25X1 iA9a
25X,k9a
-blooded# hetlf-sar statement
KR. icumpanza
KR.
KR.
KR.
s Tab
KR.
25X19a
I like "B" much better.
how do you feel on these two?
I prefer
is the same as sCs in the agenda.
Approved For Release 2001/09/KGRETIDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : IJKERA30-01826R0005?0140015-0
Security I nf or matian
he DOI side of the house
MR SHELDON: We don't mind it on the theory
sasequently have to be settledf and this is a:forking
2 5 1 A9a
5X1A9a
MR.
MR.
oblisatiew will
on
Okay, then "C" suits me.
Mt. 111111 are you any more favorable to
heard the ergumentat
5X1A9a MB` M heard any argumeiits,
:wad be more palatable to me i a little bit were laded. My objection is to that
grau o specWy & fted inAividuale.'I don't think I'd claesity themes
specially qualified individuals." i!6. rather have it say a gramat socially
Itrained individuals *which I think i. much more to the point than
qualified.
icat
1A9a
14140 than tbx
25 1A9a MR.
N: I would assume your
ke core of that,
I: Oeneali4r a year.
it
three year propointl for the Beer&
MR.KIRKPATRICK: I think I can
to support three years.
25X1A a What would be wrong with getttn
cted and trained individuals,
I * ?
period,, as one of your seci-
going to be
d to
about to bring ou
evidence from the tiles of the
o "C"
that. trmin
tea
/ think the selection Item there is extremely irortaut.
bjections to the word trained" of a deep-rooted nature?
eiMPlY assumed the selection part of it was taken care
ca of the
n fact
Yes, but the fL
?
e, to nt mind, oocnotec more
udins a training espect
d at the last meeting the
Approved For Release 2001/09/MCCRERDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 : CIA-IMP80-01826R000500140015-0
SECRt
urity Information
rviee is a
25X1A9a KR.
MR.
Yes.
MR. MIR: I
"D think in our
X1A9a mR.
something of a presstga to a proposed.
2 X1A9a MR. Not necessarily.
MR, primarily.
KR. =CP I'd like to put it on the basis that
is going to sees and consequently everybody who ever looks at its
ttee of Congress a Jackson. Committee, or what have you.
if I bop Colonel valet for a few minutes bow do vs stand
objecti
?aver.
ke to flag wa
ink there is more warmth
some of the warmth.
Congress? Is this to be
on?
5X1A9a
5 1A9a
Cal
Kirk, why dOzt't you ask
I haven't
MR KKPiUCKi He is acting like s
Dick, mould you suggest any other changes on "C" to bring it closer in
line to your thinking'?
Kirk.
25X1A9a
Ka.=. The
gratuitous eta
I say that on the grounds
11 ?
t I
the Agency and when they're talking about Career
that pops out in this curiosity of theirs
job the rest of my life?" It seems to me
and all the rest of these things are frills.
CK: I concur in that one hundred per cent.
o if that thought could be incorporated at the end Of
25X1A9a
it
25X1A9a
MR.
by
there is
That is
the
he
back in your
ace.
Approved For Release 2001/095Egg1-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Information
Approved For Release 2001/09/061: cittir80-01826R000500140015-0
y information
had a budget problem where you had to slid te people seemed to m
ng for putting in something like this.
KIRKPATRICK: I don't think legally it would be a bit da
hink fron a morale point of view it would be a case of an expects=
j Ting
never
ieLize4 due to eircumstancea beyond the individual'e and the Agency's control.
MR. MAHON: Wouldn't you thea have to administer any reduction so that
the Career Service would be the last touched?
MR. SHELDON: You're getting into your sheep and goats picture again.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You aren't going to be able to avoid that. You have
year probationary grouP, and then you have those individuals, of whom
Vito a few today, who are giving indications that they are on probation.
work hasn't met standards and they are told that.
MR.
5 1A9a
MR.
purpose
i personal satisfaction out of their jobs, they get the benefits we keep talking about,
4
Plus the grcw that refuses to go averee
Kirk, naYbe it might help for a minute
to put a vell-rounded concept on the thi
but in analyzing
the dedication,
ning process, their service during the yews, and they get
and they have &permanent career. That is the whole picture. That is why it was
done this may. "C" fills elightly abort of that veil-rounded picture and that is ehY
"B" was done in the way it was done.
2 5k1 A9 a MR. I think Mr.
with the elimination of dedication.
25X1A9a
'25X1A9a
MR' in
It does, yes.
to WX1A9a
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It also sJ4rnirrntes a catple or things.
MR. : It eliminates benefits and emolument.
M. I have no brief, particularly, for the satisfaction of a Job
agree that point is sort of gilding the lily for that articul-
MR. KIRK I th
is like punching a fee
h emoluments benefits as are
. Benefits, yes, but that is assumed; and
as appropriate" then you have to get into the definition of what is
what is in4PDroPriatet So I think with the changes suggested in
ink ion better than either. Is that acceptable to everybody?
ZDO Do we still have to leave in this obligation business?
????Pmeo.....
- 13 ?
Approved For Release 2001/09/ST(VtrDP80-01826R000500140015-0
_vN-Atrity Inforirm4nr,
Approved For Release 2001/09/06SMVP80-01826R000500140015-0
9----wity Information
MR. IEABICK: Bather than fight that battle on this battlefield let's
shift to the next battlefield, which is Tab Jr, and I would recommend that if this
is seceptsble as it is now drafted let's include obligations, pro tem, and go on
to the Tab"Restrictions and Obligations on Careerists, which I think is going to
be a controversial one.
Dan, you will have to fight for Red in this.
MR. I don't think he has the ides you tMnk he has on this.
Why don't you lead off?
John will you supplement aeything here? I think you
have bad more discussion with Red than I have. But in general his feeling was that
the section of this Report 'Which wind:: up with the recommendation that career peopi
be under an Obligation to accept Agency assignments wherever the Agency feels they
ehoeld, at whatever time they should, is not too strong acne to put on the bulk
of the Agency people.
MR. : Wher is that, Dan?
25X1A9a
ME. I an not trying to relate it now to any particular, specific
tion that mey beve been made. But in talking about this he said. it was
his feeling that the Agency could properly expect of career people their cotieentin?
to accepting the obligation to serve at any time at anyplace with sone exceptions
end be didn't get into the exceptions. Perheps Jan can amPlifywhat he meant by
125X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR.
MR.
the exception:).
25X1A9a WI It' ?
Vale? 11111111
involved.
princip
25X1A9a MR.
Anywhe
any time,
The principle i
thInks perhaps it should be modified to pr
based on individual situations of indivi
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I don't think
It is assumed that you modify it.
25X1A9a
and for any
. Be goes along in general but be
or some few exceptions, exceptions
Loyees.
a
Red wanted to make it clear that there s
for
possible exceptions.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: I think t answer to that particular statement is that
the CIA :wets career employees to serve any time, any place, and in any fashion
that it otatee, with full consideration being given to personal factors; I mean
. 14 .
Approved For Release 2001/044?1aRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
15ecurity information
Approved For Release 2001/09/06 -cgliegROP80-01826R000500140015-0
5X1A9a
vas.
125X1A9a
?
MR.
my organization I ha
a binding contract
assigned them, they
they are troops, and
Yes, I th
I think
17
poll-0Y in
oration or in Government
ion in administration, not in principle.
ould sum up exactly what his feeling in this
to have obligations
equivalent of an enliated men, and if they were to sign
hey would make one tour of three years and go any place we
ill not careerists and they won't be careeriets because
don't know whether they went to stay with us or not, they
are just taking a whack at it. For other people if you were to sign them up for life
like you do in the military, you have to have all those things that sake it worth-
while, such as retirement pay and madicel benefits of sll kinds, end you can't get
; out of it, which memo a lot of statutory things for which Congress will be lcoking
down our throats all the time. Perhaps a contract of some kind would do it. If you
had to out and recruit people or induce people to come in and they were going to
sign up for life in the Career Service, and go anywhere in the world, you wouldn't
get any one unless you could find a. yaw to break it and get out.
25X1A9a m.
MR.
MR.
2 X1A9a
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR.
'AReaerveO
is nolOngS
Re
This is, of course, unenforceable,
CK: It's unenforceable in any civilian organization.
Nobody signs up for life.
? A Regular Army officer does.
bat doesn't mean be can't get out of be service.
Re can only resign with the Approve' of the Pre
up in certain categories one of which is until his servic
the only way be can get out is to prove hardship, but a
t under any circumstances.
Your resignation doesn't mean
25XJA9a
accepted.
25X1A9a
want t
25X1A9a
MR.
MR.
ason of the Arti
t.
Unless he goes A(OI
of the uniformed service.
I don't think we could because that is
25X1A9a
or deserts, and /
ass it is
War, and there is no civilian service that C
15 -
Approved For Release 2001/09/i6c&IRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Fri} y information
le by
d enforce
25X1
25Xra
25X1Apa
Approved For Release 2001/09/06':
,r-un
DP80-01826R000500140015-0
MR.I.E. How about the Coast and. Geodetic Survey? That is
a military service.
HOUSTON: They shift their whole composition in vertime.
Could a man in the Foreign Service be prevented frou resign
MR.
signing.
5X1A9a MR,
possible
he can be prevented from re
IS this beamed at preventftg people
beamed at attempting to build into this Agency a group of people whoive
or is it
under
don't
these conditions and will not resign, *nil pat us in the position where if t
, carry out their moral Obligation we can dispose of them?
25'X1A9a
doesn't like the housing conditions over there he comes home at his own expense.
MR.11111111111 We have that now. I send ewe= to
lend if h 5X1A6a
25XMA9a
MR. IME
he says, "I watt go" *-
25X1A9a
1
25X1A9a
25)6A9a
when
25X A9a
25X1A9a
If you vent to send a man to
You can't force him to res
and you Pick him 1424X1A6a
No, we just say *There's no other job for you." If you
to go anyplace you wanted to put him, even with the best admini-
to take care of personal WACO, you could save the Government con
you are
MR41111111 The
with a civilian and he puts up ',performance bond. Then if he doesn't
ore it is taken away from hirn
MR. KIRKPATRICK: And there goes your security p
This whole paper raises quite a red flag with Me in two respects. In the
place, / y0=7111117 much, particularly having heard some of the views of
CabeU and Genersill11111111 on the businese of even suggesting obligations
the point being that I think once you suggest than, the Congress on its
,own can think up a lot more obligations "Mich can be added, and you end up with more
of a harness around your neck. I think if you even imply obligations in going to
the Congress you vial get them, but you viii get alot more than you asked for.
ey I won't go" if they have contracted. to go
ition to say, You're through, boy,
this can be enforced with a civilian, you make
16 -
Approved For Release 2001/09/graiRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
-,t4flirity information
25
1A9a
know exa
the wor
out of a
Approved For Release 2001/43cRaRDP80-01826R000500140015-0
*ecurity infotronati
o is there
well not have him there, he'
5X1A9a MR.
I turned to the left and you can't prove that he should have turned to the left.
25X1A9a Iti? You can sit there and build a record for the rest of your life
one Intangible factor
On an op
but all the paper promi
? in
activity overseas, going to get any production
ss. If his heart isn't in it you might just as
eking up 'pace.
tion, he turns to the right where he
ve
and nobody could lynch you for it, but if his arm is twisted by obligations and he's
forced to go, you haven't get anything. Oc for that reason as well as other reasons
I wonder whether we want to get into this whole question of what the obligations
should be.
MR. KIRPAThICic I agree with you one hundred per cent. I think the
matter of obligations as far as Agency employees are concerned, and their place in
career service, could be taken care of administratively When we get this program by
indicating to loyees whet career service does for than and what it can't do for
them circumstances, with the request for furtherance of the career
cy we 'would like to have them indicate that they plan to make this
bey will go whore the Agency oaks them to go and do what it asks
e understanding that personal considerations will be given as much
ibIs. / don't think we can go beyond that at the present stage. In
't ever see the U. S. Congress passing placing obligations on
similar to what they put on a military organization. It's
25X1A9a
that will rain you, Uk
they could retire after
bill.
the
the obligations?
Ef
MR. IKOM)
life.
They will vrite into the appropriations law something
the von gent Law -. everybody had been told all their life
years'30 service, so be hooks it on to an apprePrietione
up and ask for benefi
obligations
if we have adeqoate Jus
ey alight say, *What are
that the people are undergoing what we consider unfairness
k for benefits
to suggest
iion. If
ing k?"
if we
? 17
Approved For Release 200-VaREECIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
Security Informaticfro
25X1A9a
Approved For Release 2004bcigTCIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
.:5(leurity knformation
to have these, then I don't think they will ttum around.
Motivation and leadership will accompl sh something
gn in over two years who had been in ON. It's the lower
that feeling of a, crusade, but I think we can develop it.
Slate for it.
I think there is a reason for that. They were brought
ad there was an urgent atteut to do some jobs, and they
in here in large
just haven't become amalgamatol yet under the team. As soon as we get shaken down
they will get that feeling. In the Junior Officers Panel their motivation is good.
They just haven't had a change to really demonstrate it yet, and also, being young
they frustrate easier. 25X1A9a
MR. We read au these interviews-. *Why do you want to come?
you t27 him f
e$ion en this pap
MR.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
of a
of think I'd like to try Government. So
catch fire. Some of them do.
running a little short. Is there any further
I just wondered what we do with the paper/
Is thig paper beamed at legislative action or be
d at the
olpie, regardless of whether legislation is involved?
It's beamed at both end one comes before the other.
MR. ICK: I have a suggestion as to what to do with the paper, to
the effect that in presenting the other recommendations of the legislative Task
Force to the Director, that the pertinent views in this piper be boiled down end
in the covering memorandum to the Director it be indicated to him that they have been
given a thorough look--these obligationsmil CUT conclusions are as generally have
been indicated by the Board today.
5X1A9a NE. 11111111 May I make a suggestion, Kirk, thit this paper be perhaps
edited or redrefted in view of the conclusions that have been arrived at today,
bleb is on the transcript, because the paper as such makes no recommendations
ause the recommendation/5 sal/ that this Board at this time is the only one that
e it. Well, it bee been resolved, in some measure, by the transcript.
MR. KlBKPATBDCK: Having been boiled do= what were you going to do with
I think it can be covered in the memorandum.
? BOONTON: Couldn't you state this as the Object of all the other moves,
-13
Approved For Release 2001c(Mk FIA-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
,:tecunty Inform:Ator:
SECRLT
Approved For Release 200,1/09/06 :, CIA7RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
u r ity informal-ton
er be erits and the proper administration of them, and leadership,
reate a :spirit which vill assume these Obligations?
MR. KIRKPATRICK* Does that offend the dignity of the Legislative Task
25X1A9a orce in any 'ways mr?
25X1A9a ; MR. I couldn't answer course, but I am not
quite sure whet that amounts to. I em just indexing what it will mean to the Direct
or when he reads it? Certainly the central issue among certain people with whom it
, has been discussed, is this: Are we as a matter of policy, internally, going tohave
this type of obligation to serve abroad?
MR. KIRKPATRICK: It is my understanding that it is the view of the Board
career employees should accept the obligation to serve when, where and how
wants them to.
I would have to object o that. be
t, because I think you would never get
n this club.
25X1A9a
MR, laRIP
side of the house that
Lou
research offices to Timbuktu.
25X1A9a
, mental policy, supposing on the DD/I aide the:
ly qualified for a particular job and you di
the DD/P side. It would logically follow tha
MR.
There
easonable proportion
d* Ting, with the underst
i or isn't going to pick up
le to
bough.If that were the funda
one individual who was particular
vs a, man as good* temporarily, on
DD/I individual particularlY
Velified for that Joh would be tapped for tha aseignment, and there would be a
moral Obligation and. pressure, on him, with th*t policy enunciated, to be put in that
job. I can't accept that responsibility in assenting to the policy enunciation as
made. I would have to dissent from it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: My reaction to that would. be that the individual
erned, if it were in the best interests of the Agency end he simply said. I won't
, SO there then he would loss his career service status, and Should. We can't
otherwise have a career service, it people are going to say, 10014 I like it much
better here in Washington."
MR. =ELDON: Those things Ile tha
pressure would be brought to bear on that individual maybe quite rightly, but I
nk it is something you went to write down on paper end **mos as an
ion and
-19.
Approved For Release 2001/0MCM71-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
security information(
Approved For Release 2001/098KFORDP80-01826R000500140015-0
itv Information
obligation, because in effect you sssunpan obligation.
MR. MOM* CK: That is the gist of the whole di
MR. HOUSTON: My office, an a small scale has the seme problem, and I
d be delighted to accept the statement.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR
had to go through
We wanted nine people to take an overseas assignment. We
100 to get anyone to say they would go. All the others
said "I won't go. I don't have to go."
We have these re4io operators we recruit to train. They
cate they will go anywhere, but vhen you go down to the Training Center and you
I want you to go toll. they *ay "No." I am wondering if the Task Force
the poseibility of a contract that might be more enforceable by taking away
retirement the person might have?
MR. We looked into the question of penalties ar4 at this point we
think that was really desirable, that if we could get over the hump of estab-
his as &principle that was going such a long jump that we would look at
25X1A9a
liehing
penalties later.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
es Arabic to their people but they have to
tract that they will stay for a certain length of time.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is only part of it. They sign a contract but they
ay them so mudh their people don't vent to leave.
MR. It's a question of establishing t the
ipla I don't see how the Agency can administer it.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: my feeling is very strong to this line: We are all
want one Career Service, as such. We recognise that there are at the
ted benefits that can accrue, and that the benefits don't differ much
between he who serves overseas end he who doesn't. We can't give a Shorter retire-
ment period for the fellow who serves in a bedpost overseas as compared to the
fellow here in Washington. We hove two alternatives either we have one Career
Service for the Agency or one for the DNA complex and one for the DD/I. It is mY
understanding the Director wants one service, so I think individuals right across
the Agency have to accept the same obligations end same possibilities. But under-
stand there is not going to be capricious use of the fact that the Director can send
somebody overseas.
New, to tallow through on your illustration, it there was a man on the
- 20
Approved For Release 2001/0WERfirk-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
;ocurity Information
Approved For Release 2001/04-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
informdtIon
DD/I side who was needed in the side, and the individual refused to go, PY
feeling on that fellow would be that it was almot cloce to treason it be refused
to go, if it vas an important job, :there the national Security is as important as
it is in this Agency.
MR. OBLIDON: But it is the enunciation of as firm a policy as that which
going to bring about a situation viler* you will not have one Career
will only have every limited acceptance of the Career Service by the
ppersonnel. And as a result of that, I am trying to arrive at something
less Severe, should 1 may, so that you would achieve the Director's desire
a single Ceram Service. What I sense is happening around the table
t it is being tied to apoixt where you Will have a real cleavage in the
f my money, on a long..range basis, that is a serious error.
MR. XlMATRICK: I don't think there will be a cleavage in the Agency
if the "I" side of the house and the "A! side of the hems
25iX1A9a
obligation.
ga,
MR. IMM: Colonel White feels very strongly that we hairs to have this
I . . Colonel White joined the
? ? ?
R. BAIRD: Do you have in mind the specialist, Tinge Because when we
rnske our OT certainly a lot of than go to the DD/I and eign a atateent to the
effect they we accept this kind of an obligation. We know that it is not
binding on then but there isn't a one of than that has ever said that he wouldn't
sign. That is one of the reasons he comes in. Be expecte that. But I can see
that your specialists who come down for ORR or OSI might question it.
MR. SHELDON: Yes, they would quemtion it.
MR. BAIRD: But are they, in effect, careerists?
MR. SHELDON: Then you set up a series of terms of reference vbere you
e a Career Service which each end every selected and well-trained individual
That is my difficulty.
4R. KPATRICK: That is quite right. I think from that
of excluding themselves by refusal to accept Obligations, then they do exclude
themselves, and if there comes a cut or reduction in force, or the Agency in any
yogi has to contract in its sive, then you are obligated to let them go first,
Approved For Release 2001/09/CfSEGUDP80-01826R000500140015-0
'iccurity Information
Approved For Release 2001/09/0&.- P80-041426R000500140015-0
5 rity Inform,Y--n kof ONFIDENTIAL
before the ones who say they will go anywhere and do anything,
25X1A9a MR? They are willing and able to devote themselves to the
ency's business, but on their own terms.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: That is right,
MR. SHELDON: On reasonable terms.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: There is nothing unreasonable about these terms,
1 *anima.
25X1A9a
her
devoted to foreign intelligence which
ing to live abroad.
SHELDON: Nobody says they would not be
an immediate obligation to go at
r you us
this to me to have an organization
quantityof people who are unwill
Ye abroad.1 but
moment to any pisoe that you are
old to go, and having come into the Agency you have already signed indicating
ther you would or not, you are changing the rules of the game.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: You are getting into a slightly different aspect. There
uestion but that these rules of the game are going to have to be injected on
besis. We *imply cannot Change our commitments to people already in the
t we can indicate to them that whereas they will have tenure, their tenure
e as permanent as those who will accept the rules of the game. I don't
think in that way we will breach a contract in any way. In other words, as I see
the next step, Ting, after we get these things threshed out snd decide how the
er Service works, the next step is that every epployee in this Agency will re-
calve a questionnaire on his intentions regarding Career Service, which will then
lace him either as a candidate for acceptance or definitely exclude him.
Rather than prolong this meeting, unless there is further discussion, and
I think the issue is pretty clearly drawn and kneem4 I 'would recommend that the
best way to join this further is to take it directly to the Director, because I
think it is fundamental to the ehole Career Service program, and any further joust-
ing is simply going to prolong the agony.
MR. SHELDON: It's simply a question of being told by the Director:
his way." Alright then we go ahead and do it that way.
MR. KIRKPATRICK: What is the desire of the Board as to how this should
to the Director?
I think it has to have some of this in it, that isn't in
be pre
25X1A9a
Approved For Release 2001/ -RDPC)
Security information
1)1i)ENZitAL
Approved For Release 2001/09/0
Security Inform 01...1
he
?
of the AD'
that corrects
25X1A9a
MR.
eding these meet
I believe my s
Yes, in
26R00050014001b/VF54)
I think it should be presented orally. And,
/I that you vlsh
ta reflect not my personal feeling; my
ts
that have been spoken to in DD/I. I
md discussed all these matters with each
ients would be concurred in by Bob is
ink he and I at
MR. KIRKPATRIq4t I think the best
is you
d the
o invite
Vizector, end possibly the Deputy Director, to attend the meeting of the Boar
hear the Board, and you and DD/I can bring anybody he vents. Is that agreeab
Any new business?
MondaY, the 23rd
be
November, gentlemen, rat
Thursday the 26th you will probably be eating turkey.
that meeting at 4:00 on Monday, the 23rd. And
at the next meeting
2 X1A9a
MR. 'At me
have had so far with
sed Retirement System for .loyees, and t
we were aeked to determine from the Kaplan
rested in having from Us, and also find a
t an hour with Mr. Kaplan and found. hi
who would be quite willing to have the
will discuss Tabs 'V and
ort to the Board on the
In relation to Tab *D
covering memorandum of the
mrnittee just what they
what they are doing.
easy.to.talk.With
viewpoints =what
have considered in a retirement system. So I told him that I
d be quite willing to give to hlr our thinking, because his
this point is to take a. complete loot at all retirement systems of the
and to meke a reaommendation to the Congress early in the session. So
now come to you, or however you wish to get it die-
him the consensus of the discussion that has gone on here
on the liberalized retirement plan.
'k 1AL
!, I
Approved For Release 2001/0* 0,0?1-RDP80-01826R000500140015-0
S*curity Information
Approved For Release 2001/09/0
P804726R000500140015-0
urity Inkwmaihm 1'1 (7,40/r:17 r,
MR. uBKPArBicic I woui.5. suggest that it come to the Board, in view of
the fsct that is one of the Tabs o the Teak Force, and get the Board's views on
It. Thank you, Charlie.
Any other business? Thank you, gentlemen.
? ? *
Approved For Release 2
in adjourned et 5:1,j.m. . .
ET
Vt?ci,MitgP
r
P80-01e2 aRo op 1,4 opiip