ZABLOCKI AMDMT TO H. RES. 988, CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE REFORM FLOOR DEBATE ON CIA; COVERT ACTION/OVERSIGHT ISSUE.

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP79-00957A000100070037-3
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 2
• Document Creation Date: December 20, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 11, 2006
• Sequence Number: 37
• Publication Date: October 8, 1974
• Content Type: OPEN

Zablocki amdmt to H. Res. 988, Congressional Committee Reform 019~v
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at long last it is pretty well established
now.
Mr. Chairman, I hope very much this
amendment will be acted on favorably.
Mr. MEEDS. Mr. Chairman, will the
gentleman yield?
Mr. CLEVELAND. I yield to the gentle-.
man from Washington.
Mr. MEEDS. Mr. Chairman, the gen-
tleman's amendment simply incorpo-
rates the language which the House
adopted on July 22, 1974, and which was
Included in none of these resolutions,
because the base resolution (H. Res. 988).
was reported in March before the House
acted in July. So the amendment does
exactly what the gentleman says, and
we have no objection to It.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
the amendment. offered by the gentle-
man from New Hampshire (Mr. CLEVE-
LAND) to the amendment in the nature
of a substitute offered by the gentle-
woman from Washington (Mrs. HANSEN).
The amendment to the amendment in
the nature of a substitute was agreed to.
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. ZABLOCKI TO THE.
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTI-
TUTE OFFERED BY MRS. HANSEN OF WASHING-
TON
Mr. ZABLOCKI. Mr. Chairman, I offer
an amendment to the amendment in the
nature of a substitute.
PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY
Mr. Chairman, may I propound a
parliamentary inquiry before the read-
ing of the amendment?
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will
state his parliamentary inquiry..
Mr. ZABLOCKI. Mr. Chairman, I have
an Identical amendment which I wish
to offer to each of the resolutions, House
Resolution 1248 and House Resolution
1321.
It is my understanding that as a result
of the action yesterday, with the limi-
tation of 5 hours of debate, an identical
amendment would be in order to be con-
sidered to both of the substitute amend-
ments pending before the committee.
The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will in-
form the gentleman that the gentleman's
amendment would not be in order at this
time to the Martin substitute because
there is an amendment already pending
to the substitute.
Mr. ZABLOCKI. Then, Mr. Chairman,
I wish to offer the amendment which is
at the Chairman's desk to House Reso-
lution 1248, the amendment in the na-
ture of a substitute offered by the gentle-
woman from Washington (Mrs. HANSEN).
The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will re-
port the amendment.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. ZABLOCKI to the
amendment in the nature of a substitute of-
fered by Mrs. HANSEN of Washington: Page 5,
line 6, after "administration," Insert the fol-
lowing: "intelligence activities relating to
foreign policy,".
Page 63, line 10, after "administration,"
insert the following: "intelligence activities
relating to foreign policy,",
(Mr. ZABLOCKI asked and was given
permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. ZABLOCKI, Mr. Chairman, my
amendment amends both section 101
jurisdiction of the Committee on Foreign
Affairs.
The purpose of the amendment is to
provide the Committee on Foreign Af-
fairs with the special oversight function
of reviewing and studying on a continu-
ing basis-and I quote-"intelligence ac-
tivities relating to foreign policy".
At this point, I wish to provide some
background in order to put this amend-
ment in perspective.
The select committee recommenda-
tions which are also pending before the
House provide that the Committee on
Foreign Affairs shall have special over-
sight functions with regard to-and I
October 8, 1974
Affairs with the leadership of the House
and of other appropriate House coln-
mittees, to improve the committee's ac-
cess to intelligence Information,
The public announcement of this
agreement was made by the distinguished
chairman of the committee, Dr. MORGAN,
on October 1.
In his announcement, Chairman MoR-
GAN said, and I quote:
There is agreement that the Committee on
Foreign Affairs must have access to informa-
tion about overseas activities which affect
our foreign policy and United States rela-
tions with other countries-including covert
activities.
quote-"foreign and military Intelli- , My amendment would formalize this
gence." arrangement in the Hansen substitute by
In its report the committee states that adding in two appropriate places the
it took this action because of the grow- words "foreign intelligence relating to
ing importance of economic and political foreign policy.'
information in supplementing military Mr. Chairman, it is clear that the Com-
information as a factor in foreign policy mittee on Foreign Affairs cannot ade-
and national security. quately fulfill its responsibilities unless it
The select committee report makes has greater access to information than it
clear that this oversight responsibility currently has.
is not to interfere in any way with the First, foreign intelligence Is an integral
legislative jurisdiction over foreign and part of the foreign policy process. No
military intelligence which currently is foreign policy can succeed unless it is
within the purview of the Armed Serv- based _ on timely and accurate in.forma-
cies Committee. tion. The task of intelligence is to pro-
It points out, however, that the ar-. vide that information.
rangement is a mirror image of the over- To assess foreign policy without ac-
view of arms control and disarmament cess to the information on which it is
extended to the Armed Services Com- based is similar to estimating the condi-
mittee, leaving exclusive legislative au- tion of a house without. checking the
thority in that field to the Committee foundation.
on Foreign Affairs. Second, the task of gathering intelli-
Unfortunately, the Hansen substitute gence, or of conducting intelligence ac
as it now stands eliminates that mirror tivities abroad, can sometimes be an im-
image, portant foreign policy factor in and of
Under the Hansen proposal the Armed itself. All of us are aware of International
Services Committee would be given spe- incidents which have resulted from past
clal oversight responsibilities in the field U.S. intelligence operations. Let me name
of arms control and disarmament, but just a few of them:
the Committee on Foreign Affairs would United States support of unsuccessful
be denied similar jurisdiction over In- rebels soured relations with Indonesia in
telligence activities. 1958.
My amendment would remedy that The shooting down of the U?-2 spy
serious omission in. the Hansen sub- plane in 1960 caused the failure of the
stitute. U.S.-U.S.S.R. summit conference of that
It should be noted, however, that the year.
language which I am proposing is some- The failure of the CIA-supported in-
what more carefully defined than the vasion of Cuba in 1962 resulted in seri-
phrasing in the select committee pro- ous problems for the United States in
posal. the hemisphere.
That proposal speaks of oversight jur- A forged letter sent to top Thai officials
isdiction of "foreign and military in- by a CIA agent last year led to anti-
telligenee." My amendment would add Americanism and demands for U.S. mili-
the words "Intelligence activities relating tart' withdrawal
to foreign policy." " A third reason for giving this respon-
There are two reasons for this change sibility to the House Committee on For-
in terminology: eign Affairs is that agreement among na-
First, because the oversight function is tions for the exchange of- information or
limited to those intelligence activities intelligence is an important category of
related to foreign policy it is made clear relationships which two or more nations.
that the committee's jurisdiction does can carry .on. Such exchanges can have.
not include some aspects of intelligence great significance for the foreign rela-
activities or information--for example, tions of the.countries Involved.
general capabilities of foreign weapon The Committee on Foreign Affairs
systems or force structures of potential cannot do a fully adequate and effective
adversaries. I . job of meeting its foreign affairs respon-
Instead, the intelligence activities sibilities without having some jurisdic-
covered by the amendment are defined tion in the area of intelligence relating
as those related to foreign policy, which to foreign policy.
is a clear area of jurisdiction for the I, therefore, urge my colleagues to sup-
Committee on Foreign Affairs, , port this amendment.
Second, the words which I propose Mrs. HANSEN of Washington. Mr.
adhere closely to the understanding Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
dealing with special oversight functions which has been reached 'by ranking Mr. ZABLOCKI. I yield to the gentle-
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Octcver 8, 1 97/x,
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - HOUSE H 10109
Mrs. HANSEN of Washington. Mr.
Chairman, may I say that I understand
that we have discussed this with the sub-
committee chairman of the Committee
on Armed Services, and they have no.
objection, and certainly I have no ob-
jection.
Mr. ZAILOCKI. I thank the gentle-
woman.
Mr. MARTIN of Nebraska. Mr. Chair-
man, will .the gentleman yield?
Mr. ZABLOCKI. I yield to the gentle-
man from Nebraska.
Mr. MARTIN of Nebraska. Mr. Chair-
man, I have no objection to the amend-
ment. I think it is a good amendment.
Mr. ZABLOCKI. I thank the gentle-
man.
Mr. NEDZI. Mr. Chairman, will the
gentleman yield?
Mr. ZABLOCKI. I. yield to the gentle-
man from Michigan.
Mr. NEDZI. Mr. Chairman, I would
like to confirm what the gentleman said.
We have discussed this matter. It is my
opinion that the amendment conforms
to the agreement worked out between'
Mr. Colby and Pr. Kissinger, and the
chairman of the Committee on Armed
Services, and the chairman of the Com-
mittee on foreign Affairs. We certainly
think it is absolutely. essential that the
Committee on Foreign Affairs have this
kind of oversight function.
Mr: ZABLOCKI. I thank the gentle-
man.
Mr. Chairman, when the- appropriate
time arrives I intend to offer an identical
amendment to the Martin substitute,
and subsequently I Intend to offer an
identical amendment in order `to deal ,
with the same problem In the Bolling
Proposal, House Resolution 988.
Mr. HARRINGTON. Mr. Chairman, I
move to strike the last word.
(Mr. HARRINGTON asked and was
given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)
Mr. HARRINGTON. Mr. Chairman, I
would in general like to endorse the
ia,mendment recently offered, and ob-
viously agreed to by way of the consen-
sus developed between the members of
the effective committees. However, I have
one broad caveat-one broad excep-
tion-which evidently is still lost in the'
caves of ambiguity as to how this would
be implemented. I think that the pre-
ceding 20 years of inability of the Com-
mittees on Foreign Affairs of the House
and the Senate to establish what I con-
sider to be a fundamental right; if they
are going to conduct those committees
and listen to what the intention was pro-
vides some Indication of the problem that
exists, when it Is suggested that we have
solved the whole issue of oversight If we
only add the Committee on Foreign
Affairs to it without an examination of
the Committee on Foreign Affairs record
to date.
I am bothered that by attempting to
suggest that this course will deal with
all of these problems, we leave as many
questions unanswered as there were prior
to the effort this afternoon, which ap-
pears to be on the way to adoption.
Perhaps I can address my questions
either to the chairman of the CIA Over-
sight Committee or to my own ranking
senior member, the gentleman from Wis-
cousin (Mr. ZABLOcKX). If I could ask
either Mr. ZABLOCXI or Mr. NEDzI a couple
of questions with regard to the specifics
as to implementation of oversight, I think
it might be helpful both in improving
my understanding and certainly in avoid-
ing any vagueness attendant to the
Chairman's statement last week indicat-
ing the work done on oversight.
I think it was the Committee on For-
eign Affairs in conjunction with the Nedzi
suiicommittee and the existing louse
le,wdership that viewed the procedure to
include the Committee on Fore:ign Affairs
in the oversight function as to member-
ship and as to access to mater.'al. Is that
specifically worked out yet? I will ask the
gentleman from Wisconsin.
Mr. ZABLOCKI. If the gentleman will
yield, that has not yet been specifically
worked out. I am sure it will be worked
out to the satisfaction of every Member
of this House.
Mr. HARRINGTON.. Could 7: ask a sec-
ond question? Is there any thought being
given-rather than having it, as I have
put it in a letter to the chairman, In
the linkage of the senior membership
of the Committee on Foreign Affairs with
essentially the senior membership of the
Committee on Armed Services-to either
rotating or having a caucus of the Com-
mittee on Foreign Affairs to determine
membership on the oversight question?
Mr. ZABLOCKI. If the gentleman will
yield further, of course, I cannot speak
for the chairman of the Committee on
Foreign Affairs, but I do know this mat-
ter is under serious consideration by the
senior members of the Committee on For-
eign Affairs,
Mr. HARRINGTON. But as yet, there
has been no specific plan worked out as
to how we would either detemine mem-
bership or procedures to be followed In
engaging in oversight?
Mr. ZABLOCKI. If the gentleman will
yield, there is no specific plan 'worked
out, but as soon as there is one, the gen-
tleman from Massachusett, will be one
of the first to hear about it.
Mr. HARRINGTON. I should appre-
ciate that. With that Information, it is
nice to hear it without reading about it
in the papers. I thank the gentleman for
the additional information on that.
Let me just conclude by suggesting
that I think, with obvious appreciation
for the differing views of the gentleman
from Michigan, at least in one narrow
instance as far as it affects our knowl-
edge of what went on in Chile, that gen-
eral knowledge acquired either in present
sense or while in the formation stage
has been virtually nonexistent for the or-
dained oversight committees of the Con-
gress. And any effort made to suggest,
whether it be by agreement or otherwise,
that because we suddenly have to decide
that after a very, very prolonged absence
In the field, the Committee on Foreign'
Affairs added presence to the existing
Oversight Committee on Armed Services
presence will suffice for real oversight, I
think, is contributing to the illusion that
has gone on altogether tco long in this
Chamber. I hope whatever is done, and
evidently endorsed, is done with an ap-
preciation for something that approaches
effective, meaningful, systematic, well-
staffed, and. I hope not homogeneous-
membership. If they do anything at all,
they should begin to get the Congress
into something more than simply reac-
tive leadership alone.
Having this agreed to, there will be a
start in that direction, I hope. But I at
least wanted to voice my sentiment
today.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the re-
mainder of my time.
Mr. YOUNG of Florida. Mr. Chairman,
I rise in opposition to this amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to this
amendment for a very simple reason. I
believe that the more Members of this
I-louse, or more members of any orga-
nization, that we .bring into the ques-
tion of foreign activities, in CIA activi-
ties, or intelligence gathering, or what-
ever it might be, we are just creating
that many more possibilities of leaks of
information that should not be made
available to a potential enemy.
If we want to change the jurisdiction
relative to the CIA or foreign informa-
tion gathering to the Committee on For-
eign Affairs, we can do that.
If we want to leave it in Armed Serv-
ices, we should do that, but let us not
spread it out and give every committee in
the House a piece of the action. Let us
not give to more people the opportunity
to leak information that should not be
leaked.
I believe the amendment is a bad
amendment and I think it will seriously
hamper our activities in gathering for-
eign intelligence information.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
the amendment offered by the gentle-
man from Wisconsin (Mr. ZABLOQKI) to
the amendment in the nature of a sub-
stitute offered by, the gentlewoman from
Washington (Mrs, HANSEN).
The amendment to the amendment in
the nature of a substitute was agree dhtp
AMENDMENT OFFERED Dr' AIR. BBADILLO TO THE
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE Or A SUBSTITUTE
OFFERED BY MRS. HANSEN OF WASHINGTON
Mr. BADILLO. Mr. Chairman, I offer
an amendment to the amendment in the
nature of a substitute.
The Clerk read as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. BADILLO to the
amendment in the nature of a substitute
offered by Mrs. HANSEN of Washington: Page
76, after line 5, insert the following new sec-
tion (and redesignate the succeeding sections
accordingly) :
"SEC. 322. Rule X of the Rules of the House
of Representatives, as amended by the previ-
ous sections, is further amended by adding
at the end thereof the following:
(t) Committee on Urban Affairs.
"(1) Public and private housing.
"(2) Urban development.
(3) Urban mass transportation.
"(4) Relocation assistance.
"(6) Regional planning for urban tffairs,
including environmental protection, eco-
nomic development, residential patterns, and
other matters which have a related or simul-
taneous impact on a large metropolitan cen-
ter and adjoining suburbs or nearby cities
and towns.
In addition to its legislative Jurisdiction
under the preceding provisions of this pares-
graph (and its general oversight functions
under clause 2(b) (1) ), the committee shall
have the special oversight functions provided
for in clause 3(f) with respect to urban plan-
ning and the impact of government programs
on major urban centers."'
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