THE 167TH MEETING OF THE CIA RETIREMENT BOARD CONVENED

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP78-03092A000900140001-4
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 19
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: May 28, 1999
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: October 21, 1971
• Content Type: MIN

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. . . The 167th meeting of the CIA RETIREMENT BOARD convened
at 2:00 p.m. on Thursday, 21 October 1971, with the following present:
Harry B. Fisher, Chairman
25X1A9a
MR. FISHER: Have you had a chance to review the M Minutes? Any
problem with them? If not, we will let them stand as is. We have the 2 September
and 24 September Minutes.
. . . The Board approved the Minutes as presented . . .
MR. FISHER: Then we can move ahead to just two employees who have
completed 15 years of Agency service and otherwise qualify for designation as
participants.
25X1A9a
Recommend approval.
Second.
This motion was then passed . . .
MR. FISHER: And under (b) we have 15 employees who have more than
five years of service and meet the criteria for designation as participants.
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So move.
Second.
. . . This motion was then passed . . .
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MR. FISHER: And then we have under (c) a
applying for voluntary retirement under the CIA System, age 50, 22 years of Agency
service, more than 120 months overseas. Looks fine. And also one request for
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involuntary retirement by He is only 48 years old but he has 27 years
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of service, 19 years with the Agency and the 95 months overseas. So, I'd like to
have a motion on both of these.
Is this voluntary involuntary?
MR. FISHER: Yes. He feels he has the right.
We have two more. One more request for voluntary
retirement - on 17 December and one more involuntary - Edward
for 31 December and they meet everything else.
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
25X1A9a
MR. FISHER: These things give you fits in statistics - this voluntary
and involuntary. Among all of the other statistics, I have been going back and forth
on separations and reasons for separations and the number of retirements and of
course I have firmly fixed win my mind the combined affect of the two systems.
Last year was 602 and when you come up with a figure it's 514. First of all, a
few of them were in contract status. People who were converted and now in con-
tract. So they didn't show as separations. And all of,.the involuntary do not show
as staff retirees. They show as involuntary terminations.
MR. FISHER: This is the way the machine records them. In a sense they
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have been involuntarily terminated and then they elected to claim retirement.
We still have to count them, obviously.
MR. FISHER: We still count them. When you go r to the regular system
and code it, it doesn't show as a regular retirement. It shows as an involuntary
separation.
25X1A9a
Does it count against the 800?
MR. FISHER: Yes. I suppose we could make a poor administrative
judgement that these aren't regular retirements - these are involuntary retire-
ments. We have always considered under CIARDS quota voluntary, mandatory, and
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involuntary counted -- disability anl~sa~t do not.
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Disability and death do not count against the 800 ?
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The number of participants retiring on annuity except
disability shall not exceed such and such.
MR. FISHER: I would like to bring up one subject before I forget it. We
may be faced with an interesting session in a subsequent meeting. You might at
least be $ thinking about it. The first few years we brought before the Board,
just as we did these voluntary retirements, disability retirements and I would sit
here and say, "We're about to retire on disability Joe Smith who has chronic emphy-
sema" - or whatever - and the Board would say, "Okay. " And it just seemed
a bit rediculous after a while. Since the regulations say I may or may not go to the
Board on all these recommendations we agreed - "Let's not send those through IN
here. " So the way the system works, the man applies for disability retirement, the
doc's convene a board, and then Dr. Tietjen writes to me as Chairman of the Board
recommending that I approve this request for disability retirement. And then I write
a letter to the man saying that I, as Director of Personnel, find you disabled and approve
your disability or do not approve it. We have our first case now of a man who is
really digging in -- a disapproval of a disability retirement -- and he has indicated
that he wants to come before the Board. And so this Board could be in the position
of sort of listening to him and listening to the doctor. And I must admit it sounds
difficult for us to say we disagree with our doctors, but nevertheless, in the Civil
Service Commission they do appeal and the first appeal goes to a lay examiner and
if he upholds the ruling of the examiners the Medical Board then can $ go to another
board, which has three lay members, for a final review. And I have been thinking
of things like if he had such a persuasive story and his doctor sort of supported him -
I don't know. Possibly we could say, "Well, we recommend that some new doctor
be brought in or you go to another doctor. " I'm just not sure. Its not here yet.
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MR. FISHER: Neurological - kind of a strange one. He feels that his
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I'm familiar with this case. There has been atrophy. I
think he's got a very good case. And there is a lot of points that he doesn't know about
that exist on paper dealing with encouragement that the medics gave downstairs.
They felt that his case requires disability.
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MR. FISHER: _ is a very honorable guy.
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Why do the medics say --
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MR. FISHER: I don't know. We are going to have to get him up here.
He not only says "no" but he says "unanimous". Not even "close". I got them back
together again. ~ I told him, = get some more information from your
doctor and take it back. " He had never talked to John personally. They went back
and talked again and they got nowhere. So it is rather a strange one. And of course
could stay out on sick leave and run it out.
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He's not going to retire, of course.
MR. FISHER: He could get much of the benefits of disability retirement
by just running out of sick leave. He has very strong letters from his doctor. Not
that he is sick but that he is disabled.
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That leave would give him another year.
MR. FISHER: Yes. If he ran out his full amount of sick leave - - it
would be the tax benefit of ~ maybe seven years for "X" amount of money, say
$5, 000 or $6, 000.
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MR. FISHER: It isn't to be ignored. But, in any event --
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If he doesn't get this is he going to refuse to retire?
MR. FISHER: Not refuse - that's not the question.
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He plans to get an advanced degree and teach, but he has a
son in college and he felt that he needed this additional benefit for disability retire-
men pin orddEprt~et$a% g9p~0Rf'lbrcC~%- e A . AgQR%l. 4 at the same time -
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I don't believe that. Whether he gets medical disability
or not wouldn't persuade him.
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He kept me advised over the past couple of years about
conversations he had had with the medics and according to they assured him
that - the doctor in question assured him that he had a very good case for disability
retirement. And on the basis of this assurance and the statements from his own doc-
tor he made his plans to retire and so on. Otherwise he wouldn't have gone this far.
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Is he able to work? He does work now?
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Yes. He takes regular exercise to keep his muscles from
further atrophy. He's lost 15 pounds. His arms are getting smaller and smaller.
Both of them now. It was on one side - both shoulders are being affected now.
They realize that downstairs but they claim it doe:sn't affect him.
MR. FISHER: I think you are quite right. Doctors talk to these people
and sort of indicate that you are disabled. When it really gets down to the line
25X1A they back down. In this case= really was led down the garden path. Do you
realize he got a Career Award and a ceremony? He really gave up his job. He's
been replaced. And it came as a real shock to him to 0 have this thing turned down.
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When was he scheduled to retire?
MR. FISHER: There was no schedule. He was applying for disability.
Whenever it was approved he would then run out his sick leave. He has almost a year of sick leave.
Okay. We have quite a group then of 15 year reviews. Starting with 111 item
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number three - That one seemed pretty clear-cut to me. There-
fore, I think we can have a recommendation that he be transferred out of the System.
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Second.
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. . . This motion was5eemsed . . .
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MR. FISHER: On 25X1A9a it seems to me that what we are talking
about here is a nine month - roughly nine, ten months. In other words, I'd like
to see us tickle this for October recognizing that we are going as far as nine months
be
since the man is overseas. And I assume you will/in close touch with them in the
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event that he returns earlier. (Speaking to Since I'm the Head of
his Career Service you can keep in touch with me. Does that seem reasonable to
you all?
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Yes, indeed.
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
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MR. FISHER: Then we have Medical Service. While
they don't make the specific recommendation they are certainly implying that he
doesn't have it. We have no choice here but to transfer him out.
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Right.
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
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MR. FISHER: Then we have
much the same. I see no basis for keeping him in.
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from Finance. This is very
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
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MR. FISHER: is terribly close.
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We had him on the Board once before and it was deferred
because of the fact that he was going to get some additional TDY. It was deferred
for, I think, four or five months. Well, he still hasn't gotten any more.
MR. FISHER: Didn't he go at all?
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No, not since December 1969. They still say he'll get
it sometime but they don't know when.
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They say he'll get it soon, don't they?
That's what they said before, too.
MR. FISHER: How much past is he?
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It was 24 September.
MR. FISHER: Okay, so it's only a month or two. Let me mention this
one to Huizenga and see if we can't wrap it up. I'd like to take a look for another
three or four months. We have almost an unofficial agreement that if they get
to within 15 days we are not going to fuss. They're indicating that he is supposed to
routinely do this. I'll get the true story by checking with Huizenga.
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I'll code it to the end of January, again.
They won't come out and tell you, "No, he's not going. "
MR. FISHER: I mean if he tells me it's completely impractical, then we
can reconsider it.
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I think, Harry, you mentioned a 15 days there. Is that a sort
MR. FISHER: We have on occasion said -- you know, we w don't know
where to cut it but we have never gone beyond 15 days.
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If they're in -- not to put them in.
MR. FISHER: That was specifically for taking them out.
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Have we ever had a 16 day one before? I would urge
that 16 days is as good as 15 days. Go ahead and put him in.
MR. FISHER: What about 17? what about 26? You'd have to draw the
line somewhere. Okay. I'll find out. We may have to come to grips with that if
Huizenga tells me that the chance of his going out are slight.
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What happens if Huizenga tells you there is no chance that
he'll ever go?
MR. FISHER: Then we have to face up to the 16 days question.
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What are you going to say to that? That's just too flat.
MR. FISHER: He'll give me an honest answer. He should be able to know
within the next three or four months whether this guy will go out.
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They say these people have the feeling that they are
above the rules. I don't know whether that's true or not. The people in ONE,
I mean.
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MR. FISHER: Now we have In his case I'm particularly
sympathetic. I think, too, this one -- I recall very clearly at the time he is
talking about that we had a few of these who came to us right at the time they were
originally told the initial choice was "you can stay until you're 62 in Civil Service
and M at age 60 you go out under the CIA System. " We had a couple of people
who elected not to go in the CIA System in the thought that they could go to age
62 with Civil Service. Very soon thereafter the policy changed to be 60 in both
25X1A Systems. Some of these came back and said this wasn't fair. was over-
seas. The decision he made is so clearly contrary to his own benefits. Does
anyone have any other feeling about this?
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Looking at the regulations - while we are on the subject -
all the way back it's clear that in 1967 after he made this decision then this thing
started tightening down.
MR. FISHER: Right. Those here at Headquarters immediately became
aware of what had happened to them. The only possible question could be there were
some people who felt, to use the phrase that was popular at that time, this was an
'upholstered"701 system here. If they got into the System they could be involuntarily
run out. He felt he could work until age 62. I think we have a motion here that he be
allowed to reenter the System.
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. . . This motion was then seconded and passed .
MR. FISHER: We now have
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This is the young man
MR. FISHER: We have made an adjudication now that he will m t be 60 until
1975. Haven't you got that 0 cranked into his file yet?
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MR. FISHER: He came in and said, "I'm really two years younger than
all my records show. " And he gave us a photostat that he had gotten in Richmond
which indicated that they scratched through the birthdate that he had and put in a
birthdate two years later. And somehow it was very amateurish looking. We sent
it up to OG C. We agreed with OGC that we go to Security and let them run a little
check on it and it developed that he had gone through the correct procedures and
the appropriate courts had adjudicated that he was born two years earlier. And
that is how the records had been fouled up. But the funny thing is that the basis
for the decision was something out of the family Bible that said he was born on
Sunday, whatever it was, February 25th, and just for the heck of it we checked the
back of the telephone book where it gives the days and February 25th in that year was
not a Sunday. Right up to the end it was a fouled up thing. We have no choice, really;
but to accept the fact. He did have one thing going for him. His school years seemed
to tie in better with being two years younger. He came from a big family and they
just put the wrong date in the Bible. It became pertinent because he was also asking
that his household shipment be made in advance - five years in advance! But I
didn't know whether it was five years in advance or three years in advance or what.
So I guess instead of being 58 he is now 56 and therefore his retirement date is four
years off. However, today we are considering whether or not he is qualified for
CIARDS. And the keystone I feel to this decision was he engaged in activities or
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operations in support of Clandestine operations abroad and as recent as this morning
I conferred again with Mr. ...... and Mr. Wattles and they both confirmed to me
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I can't see it.
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Neither do I.
MR. FISHER: Any of you? Well, I guess we have a motion.
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
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In the other case - Air America - how do you --
MR. FISHER: The major effort there was so operationally oriented and
so much in support of clandestine activities overseas. Therein laid the big differ-
ence. Plus, because of the worldwide impact to the System and all the things over-
seas, he had to get into all kinds of unusual negotiations and really protecting the
CIA name in terms of these activities. Where we will run into a similar thing
is an --
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An annuitypcheck.
MR. FISHER: Yes, and I'm sure we will have to block it over at Civil
Service. We haven't gotten that yet and a so we have been told by direction, "Let's
wait until we are out from under any quotas, period, until we do that. " If we got
to the point where we were saying anyone that cannot be surfaced with the Civil
Service Commission as an overt CIA employee to the extent that he can get a regular
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Government retirement check, then he should be retained in our own System because
there are so many. There wouldn't be a lot that wouldn't make it conventionally
but yet who would be in a category. But there could be some. So_ could
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argue, "How can I get a Civil Service check? I supposedly worked for
Our answer at this point would have to be, "Okay, we can protect this. " Even to
the extent of getting a reimbursement arrangement and sending him a check. We
have done that. We have worked it out. It's the hard way of doing it and what 25X1C
concerns me most about it is that it rests entirely on one man -
It's strictly an arrangement
with him. If he ever leaves there is no guarantee that the next guy will be as cooper-
ative as he is and is willing to do all this on his own authority. So I think down the
line it may be a consideration. But, again, I discussed this upstairs and the
feeling is, "Let's try and get by 1974 when the quota is no longer a problem. " But
Cover Division has sort of raised this point, too, that they might have ~ "X"
number of people whom they would greatly appreciate having the ability to keep it
entirely within the CIA M System. Okay. I think we have a motion and a second.
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has not been approved or designated as a
participant in the System.
. . . This motion was then passed . . . 25X1A
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this one once before. As I boil this one down now -- -has updated the ser-
vice -- it's another one that's terribly close. He has 56 months and 17 days and I'm
saying he needs about 104 a more days to get in. And he has 28 days from paragraph
2(a) of the cover letter which is supported in the original --
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The way I figure it he doesn't need 104 days.
MR. FISHER: I am saying 13 days to bring us to 57 months and, you know,
91 more days is 104. The service mentioned in paragraph 2(a) of the 20 October
letter is supported in the 9 April memo - about 28 days. The one month is also
supported in that April letter. Let's say 30 days. There is three weeks in 1962
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which comes out of the new memo. It's 21 days. And then out of this two months
he therefore would need 25 days to put him in. I might also add there are extenuat-
ing circumstances in this one that make it administratively very desirable that we
not play around with it too long. On the balance I can see now sufficient qualifying
service. It's close. But even if we only gave him ten days out of that two months
he'd be within 15 days and then we'd be faced with this quibbling about this 15 days.
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I move we approve.
Second.
. . . This motion was then passed . . .
MR. FISHER: Jay, do you have any trouble with it?
25X1A9a
Yes. It's aw
two months at all, frankly.
MR. FISHER: It is pretty thin.
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But I have to accept the Board's decision, essentially.
MR. FISHER: If we were being very, very strict constructionists on this
one - he obviously had to meet them under more difficult conditions as a result of
this flap at the end. If it wasn't for that it would be a straight escort service for
visiting foreigners. But he apparently had to be pretty fast on his feet. It makes
it a little more difficult. This guy is kind of emotionally unstable at this point and
there is a feeling that there might be a even more, but we can't push it very much.
It has made the whole case kind of difficult to handle. In appreciation for these
extenuating circumstances I'm not satisfied to -- you just can't push him any more to
pin it down.
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He didn't like the idea of putting down so much operational
detail. They sat down with this in front of him and tried to reconstruct this. He was
trembling long before they got past the first 15 minutes.
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fully thin. I don't see anything in the
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MR. FISHER: He's about as far gone as he can be without going for dis-
ability retirement. I'm not sure he wouldn't be a medical disability except he will
not apply and pursuing a medical disability against a recalcitrant is a very, very
difficult job. So we have sort of done our best, really.
25X1A9a
I think you read these to a minimum of four weeks - at least
MR. FISHER: Yes. I think there has been a motion. Seconded and
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carried. It's a tough one.
. . . This motion was then passed . . .
MR. FISHER: There was one previous case where we turned one down that ^
was very much like this and the Director, after much thought, said, "Why must we
cut our own throats when this is so close and so obviously a way to go?" and so on.
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Now, the next fellow - the add-on o Actually, I'm
afraid he's rapidly approaching the same status. This man's about to have a L
breakdown. I do feel I should give you a little of the background. I sup ose we
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could just consider it on the merits, but I think you ought to know this. _
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Is he correct in his statement that he had gotten a job and
we talked him out of it and sent him to
25X1A9a
MR. FISHER: says, negative.
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MR. FISHER: Incidentally -- I don't like to get too far afield here.
There has been discussions with some force on applying training at the end of the
line out of CIA funds. Even though it's clearly for commercial employment.
25X1A9a
This would be in line with what we are planning here.
MR. FISHER: This is the sort of thing that you might be planning here.
I've always had this in mind as it was too bad that we are stymied by the Training
Act that applies to the Government at large. When you send someone out for train-
ing it is supposed to improve his capabilities to the Agency. That's the one I was
interested in. State Department had asked for special regulations for retread and it
has been turned down. The FAA legislation came through= and they said that
for air controllers who are, for one reason or another, no longer qualified - and
it's a very broad sort of windup - which for any reason in the opinion of the head
of the Department of Transportation he's no longer qualified, he can give him two
years of training to work elsewhere in the Government or in the commercial world,
pay his salary, and not count him as strength. So they really won. You know -
you can works elsewhere or attend a university during that period. Well, I'm
not looking to counting as strength, but surely we should be able to pay for all that he
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needs for this Agency if he doesn't feel -- Well, it's necessary for the pro adminis-
tration of this Agency to do this type of thing. And really, for some of these people
I think it's very true. Now obviously it could be abused. Everybody could jump for
it. So I don't know where we are going to go with it. Interestingly, I finally found
a 65 page paper from Larry Houston saying, "Yes, this Agency can do it. "
25X1A9a
MR. FISHER: I have. That's going to be part of the whole package.
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25X1A9a
Why don't we resurrect that?
This would be salary and educational --
MR. FISHER: Again, there are some tricks to it. You even have a
question in your own mind. First of all, I would like to make it CIARDS as well
as Civil Service. I'm not too anxious to crank it just into the CIA legislation.
But I don't feel -- I'm not too sure that we want to make it, "If you retire at age
60. " In other words, you would like it to be an incentive to earlier retirement
and then how long a period? Six months? One year? That sort of thing. None
of it is terribly costly. If a guy goes to college for a year maybe you are talking
about $4, 000. That's not so much if it could get people out earlier and retread
them. We had one that went to the training. He might have
left earlier. So it's trying to work out the best way of administering it. And I
know right now if I was leaving - and I have no intention of doing anything in par-
ticular -- but if I knew that if I = leave at age 59 instead of 60 I can get a Masters
Degree somewhere -- that would be nice to have. Well, how do you stop that?
You know the man can always just say I'm getting it to teach.
25X1A9a
for this ?
MR. FISHER:
retread.
25X1A9a
Does the Department of Defense have an ~ allowance
Yes. They have an approved statute which allows them to
0 Military or civilian?
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MR. FISHER: Military, only.
25X1A9a
Are they all for two years?
MR. FISHER: Most of them usually take two years.
25X1A9a 25X1A9a
got a PhD in one year, didn't he?
MR. FISHER: He got a Masters and, you know, sometimes they get
them both at the same time. Sometimes they take much more than M they need.
25X1A9a
This is education as opposed to --
It's a retooling to permit r --
MR. FISHER: You could ask him, "When did you teach last?" And if
he says "X" years ago, then okay. So if you can sponsor him, subsidize him to
teach somewhere -- and it isn't tocO difficult to find colleges as hard pressed as
they are. There have been one or two other cases like this where they pay either
difference
a minimal amount and we put in the and they let him teach. And then
A
he can go to his next job and say, "I taught last year at such and such a college. "
This man wrote a long appeal as to why we shouldn't. He was then declared
surplus and told that he was going to be separated under the System. And he
wrote a long appeal and it reached Col. White's office. We had gone through this -
back and forth with him - and the last action was, "You now have ten days to
appeal. I'm recommending to the Director that he terminate you under 102c. "
By the time it hit Ed's office he resigned. So we pulled the whole thing back because
there is no sense -- In other words, he didn't particularly want to be terminated
under 102c. Then as an added thought he thought, "I'd be a lot better off if you put
me in the CIARDS. " He is now applying for active duty in the Air Force and I
think he's going to be accepted. Jack Thomas, the little General up in NIPE, came
down to see me on it - and the Air Force is using him as sort of a liaison - asking
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how come this guy is leaving the CIA and wants to come back in the Air Force?
So I didn't want to blackball the guy so I gave him a fairly honest answer on it.
So the next thing that struck me is - can he keep his annuity? I've never had
someone retire here and go into the Air Force. It has always been the other way
around. And, yes, the answer is he can keep his full civilian annuity and draw
a full Major's pay. Isn't that right, Murry?
25X1A9a
Yes. That's what 1iM tt the Commission said.
MR. FISHER: Now, he will only get Social Security. He will not earn
additional credit. I just hope he gets this job. He's looking for a stopgap to
keep him employed and I think he's going to be used on this declassification thing
at the Archives. He's been an Intelligence Analyst.
25X1A9a
When will the decision be made on this?
MR. FISHER: By the Air Force? I don't know. It must be very
current.
25X1A9a
His time is drawing very close here.
MR. FISHER: Now, after all of this we get back to his application for
CIARDS for which there is just no basis at all other than as you see here -- "My
real hope is being a teacher and working for CIA has tainted me. " I am afraid we
an
have just had too many people who have 1b gone back to/academic working world
to go for this.
25X1A9a
Is that true? I understood that with ClAers we are
MR. FISHER: It's mixed. I don't honestly see it as a major factor.
25X1A9a
At some places, obviously -- just left to become president of one.
25X1A9a
That was unique.
MR. FISHER: I realize that.
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25X1A9a
He is a hometown boy, his family is very prominent -
a completely unusual situation.
MR. FISHER: Nevertheless, there must have been some board who still
had to say - "Do we take this man back from CIA?" We have a long list now.
We must have 30 or 40 at least over the last couple, three years who have gone
25X1A9a
back to the academic world. I'm afraid nothin
says -- as I do
read into it it's "because I'm from CIA. " I'm afraid that is part of it. But I
don't think it's enough.
25X1A9a
What if this Air Force thing falls through and he wants
to revive the offer?
25X1A9a
You'd have to carry him.
Was it in fact an offer or just a discussion?
Well, they called him by phone. He go went out there
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really
MR. FISHER: Nevertheless, I can't see a basis for bringing
him into our System. Does anybody feel any differently? There is an awful lot
of circumstances here. But when you get right down toW it, "Is he qualified
for the CIA System? It That's not the answer. I'd be happy to find any other
solution. I think we then have a motion.
. . . This motion was then seconded and passed . . .
. . . The meeting adjourned at 3:00 p. m.
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