(UNTITLED)

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP78-03092A000600080002-3
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: S
• Document Page Count: 42
• Document Creation Date: December 9, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 10, 2001
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: January 1, 1969
• Content Type: MIN

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The 110th meeting of the CIA RETIREMENT BOARD
convened at 1:30 p. m. on Wednesday, 2 April 1969, with the following
present:
Mr. airman
Mr. DDP Member
Mr. I Member
Dr. T Member
Mr. DS Alternate Member
Mr, al Adviser
Mr. Executive Secretary
Mrs Recording Secretary
Guest: Mr. Edward W. Proctor, ADDI (For consideration
(case only.
MR. Let's let Mr. Proctor have his moments here
so he can get back to his busy routine.
You all remember the case, of course.
wrote a fine letter, and everything he says is true.
MR. PROCTOR: Really two points that I came down for. One
is, obviously, the -case itself, but the other is to really find out
for myself what kind of criteria you people were using in deciding what was
creditable service and what was not. You have all read letter,
and 25X1A9a
putting him as a person aside, the point of concern is that we don't have any more
of these, and that we in the DD/I at least have some idea what the criteria are
that you are using so that we can give better guidance to people as to who might
opt for this and who might not, and we will be able to discourage those that
clearly will not be given approval, as it were, and those that have at least a
chance to be considered, with a good probability of beinn accepted.
It's clear, I think, that we did not have a good concept of
what the criteria would be, and on the basis of previously approved cases which
I did review, this one seemed quite appropriate. Now there may be two elements
here - either we do not understand what the criteria are, or perhaps we have not
resented the information appropriately so you could recognize his service did
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fall under this criteria. As I gather, there's no question about his 29-plus
months when he was involved in overseas duty in , as 25X1A6a
creditable service -- is that correct?
25X1A9a MR. hat is right.
25X1A9a MR. PROCTOR: Now I've gone over memo and the
initial request that was forwarded by and approved by Jack Smith,
and I've re-read the Regulation and the Minutes of the Deputies' meeting --
which I attended -- where this desire to use up the quota on the one hand, and
perhaps alleviate some of the bottleneck at the top, on the other, was raised
and discussed. I think it would be worthwhile your telling me what kind of
criteria would be used as a basis for judging domestic service as opposed to
overseas service.
MR.- Well, let me take a crack at it first, and then of
course you can hear from the others.
First of all, I'm the first to admit that this is very fuzzy
criteria that we're trying to work under, and it has been a very trying period
for everybody on the Board. We were sailing along pretty well on the routine
domestic qualifying service cases, and we had fallen into what we had felt was a
fairly comfortable pattern of being able to identify such service under (11)(a),
(b), and (c) -- and even there, under (11)(c), the Board had long said that that
would be used only in cases where retirement was imminent -- so we certainly
could bring (11)(c) fully into play for people who were agreeing to get out -
so they had that going for them.
Now, when the 31 July letter was written -- and I was at
the Deputies' meeting that you spoke of, too -- we never zeroed in on exactly
what would be done, but there was a thought that we would be more liberal during
this "open season, " so to speak, and that there was no question that part of our
job was to help management, but nevertheless, we were still left with the thought
that there had to be some germ of qualifying service within the meaning of the Act.
So we started getting into these cases and we quickly began
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having trouble reaching unanimity of opinion on many cases. So very early on
we invited Col. White to come down-- And I told him - "It's very difficult for
us to be sure how far we are supposed to go here. " Col. White was quite
circumspect -- as a matter of fact, asked that it not be made a matter of record as he talked around this thing. I think I'm accurate in saying he admitted that
using up the quota was not the magic - - it was the gimmick we sort of hung onto but since it was there, this was a good time to open this thing up -- but I think
more important was BALPA and a lot of other things that have brought people
home from overseas, etc. , and if we could help alleviate this thing, let's help
the people willing to get out. In trying to pin him down on what is qualifying
service, he still stayed with - "There has to be something there for the record --
you have to put yourself in a position that if a Congressional Committee looked
over our records they would see some handle that we grabbed onto to permit a
man to qualify for the System. "
Well, that wasn't completely satisfactory but it did set us
off again with a little better idea.
Then we clunked along- - And again, some of the Board
members may not completely agree with me here, but I've tried to analyze this,
25X1A9a
myself, particularly with relation to the -case. So, we came on down
the pike. Well, obviously, the Board was given the best cases first,
and so we began bringing a lot of people into the System. And we would help
ourselves by saying: "Now, by God! that is only under this 31 July memo -
because they wouldn't stand a chance otherwise. " And each one had to go to
Col. White, and each time he would write on it - "Okay, I approve it, but -
boy! - this is no precedent -- and it will never happen after 31 July" -- each
time sort of giving us to believe - "We're really reaching here. "
Well, the cases began getting more difficult as the
Directorates started reaching the bottom of their lists -- until finally we hit one
where we said - "No, not this guy! really, this would be stretching too much! "
Now I feel we crossed the magic point when we did that -- because they were
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getting weaker and weaker as they got to this man. Then we drew the line --
and again, this is my analysis of it - - and then we had a new base of comparison
to look back to, and it became increasingly easier as we began comparing a case
to this one that we had said "no" to, and then we Wk began saying "no" to quite
a few.
Now I feel in the last few cases that we said "yes" to,
they were the weakest ones - - and it was sort of where we drew the line - -
they could just as well have been on one side or the other side, but we drew the
line here.
As I look back on the cases, for
instance, they're not an awfully lot different from
MR. PROCTOR: Precisely!
MR. And this is hard to really explain, Sk because
25X1A9a
you do have to consider the entire case -- but at least in case he had
almost three years of overseas service and needed only two years, as opposed
to a total of five years. And again, in talking with Col. White - even when he
said "go ahead" with that last memo which says - "now take a look at those
with none" - he said, "I can't see bringing anyone in with none. " I said we
have one guy in Div D who has dedicated his whole career here to something
which would be of no use to him outside of the Agency -- so we brought him in,
and that again gave a basis for comparison.
This is the best I can tell you. It has just been a
torturous job! And we felt we had reached the end of the line. And Col.
White had said - "I'm not trying to make it easier for you fellows, and I know it's
a very tough job, but I think you're all honest men, and, by and large, when it's
all over you will not have made too many mistakes -- somehow your feel for
the thing in your voting for or against, is not going to be too wrong. "
is undoubtedly a borderline case -- borderline in
contrast with these last two that sort of slipped in under the wire, so to speak.
25X1A9a
But we all -- with the exception of who was a brand new member
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here -- we were unanimous in feeling this would bring in every intelligence
analyst in OCI.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a DR. Let me speak about one of these cases - 25X1A9a
an OSI man. In that case we looked very hard for something that would
directly relate to support of clandestine activities abroad. We had to strain,
I'll be the first to admit it -- but we did find he was in on operational planning
for overflight activities and things of that sort, and then had been in on actual
mission support while the thing was in process and being post-mortemed --
so that we gave him credit for enough of that to get him in.
25X1A9a MR. The _ case was even worse than-
DR. Yes, we had to reach way back in the- case to 25X1A9a
catch some old collection support activity he engaged in early in his career.
MR. PROCTOR: One of the impressions I got from the Regulation
was that the individual would have to have some service which he could not fully
explain to a prospective employer--
MR. Yes -- that's (ll)(c). That's right.
MR. PROCTOR: And I think - did himself a disservice
by writing his letter the way he did, in that he didn't highlight this, he
highlighted the type of activity, as opposed to what he could or could not say to
a prospective employer.
Now I know directly what 40 he has been doing in the past
20-odd months since he has been working on this indications system. Let me
explain to you just what it is. He is trying to use ... maximum likelihood
statistical analysis in the problem of indications in estimates. Now on the surface
this doesn't sound like much, and it doesn't sound like getting into, shall we say,
intelligence information very deeply. It looks like a straight analytical job.
What it amounts to, however, is really getting into the sources of the information
that bear on a particular crisis situation, the assessment of the validity of the
reporting -- which requires and he has been going back to the Clandestine Services
and getting as complete read-outs as they can give as to the validity or likely
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validity of these people's reports, and the melding of all sorts of information,
including COMINT, and the nature of the operation in which COMINT was collected --
some of it (FID) stuff but most of it NSA stuff, and a lot of other stuff as well.
But the process here is 'essentially to develop a statistical approach to indications,
and to explain this to an outside employer without going into the detail of the kind
of special problems one has in knowing about sources, knowing about the circum-
stances in which the information was collected, and even informing an employer
of what the indications' problem is, is not only difficult but is impossible if you
can't really throw the whole thing open. I would consider that, in terms of
25X1A9a
(11)(c), as qualifying service. In memo of 14 February 1969, in his
paragraph 3. c., he says from September 1967 to the present time he has been
working on that.
Now the other-- I looked at it from the point of view,
where could we get (13) more months. In his paragraph 3. b. (1), which talks
about his work on the USIB Watch Committee 25X1 C
which was again a knowing-the-sources, a knowing-the-intelligence thing, and
something he can't really explain to a prospective employer -- so with that, I
got 60 months out of it.
There is one other element in this -- and again, this is an
element just like the previous one, which applies to the 31 July memo, and
certainly I would not expect this to be a precedent for anything beyond that period
25X1A9a
until 31 July -- and that is this fact: I think we would be happier and
would be happier if he left. This is a management problem, in this sense -
let me explain it to you. It's not that the guyst isn't doing really good work.
He is. He is a guy who has been in grade since 1961, or earlier. He is pushing
like mad for a promotion -- which he will NOT get, and he has been told he will
not get, and he's turning sour, and this is affecting his work, and the longer this
continues, the less useful he is. He's not quite at the margin - but six months
or a year from now he's going to be at the margin where this is going to be
affecting his work. In effect, we would be better off without him. This is not
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a written criteria but I think it's something we have to look at carefully. He is
occupying a GS-15 slot -- he's not supergrade material -- he's blocking the
progress of other people we would be able to put into this 15 position.
I think we have a case.
I thought perhaps you had crystallized your "Now criteria
somewhat better than I realized it was in the beginning, but I see you haven't --
and I don't blame you for it, because it's a very tough job. But I think if you look
at it not in the way he wrote his memorandum - - which was wrong - - I mean,
it didn't present the aspect of (11)(c), as it were, on what he could tell a
prospective employer.
Now he has gone out and has foundwhat I consider a very
decent job for himself. He is under what he considers serious financial
pressure -- and this is one of the reasons he wants a promotion, as well as the
recognition. He has a son who is going into college -- but we all face this
problem - - some of us with more money, obviously. He has talked to this
prospective employer in very, very vague terms -- talked about his academic
background, and that he's an analyst. The employer - the Vice President -
called me to find out just what did this man do. What could I tell him? That
he was a political analyst, was the only cleared thing I could tell him. He also
worked with statistics, was the only thing I could tell him. Was he good? Yes.
Any shortcomings? Sure. Strengths? Sure. I talked to him for a half to
three-quarters of an hour, and then he said, "But I still don't understand what
he did. " And I think that is evidence enough of (11)(c), myself.
Now I think that he can do the analytical job that he is being
hired by these people to do with systems analysis, on the basis of what I've seen
him do here, but I can't give them the detailed description of what he did that
would give them the confidence -- I was asked to assure them of this -- and
they are not that satisfied - except they're willing to take a chance. I think
has in effect been hampered by the fact that he was working on classified
material which he is in no position, really, to divulge to them, as far as sources
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As far as intelligence methods are concerned, if his new
procedure works it will be a substantial supplement to our sort of intuitive
work -- it will be a tremendous breakthrough. And I think it WILL work. So
he has made a contribution that in effect he will not be able to discuss at all.
So, that is the position I find myself in on this. Obviously,
I would like you to say "yes" on this, but I feel - as Col. White said - he
assured me that you would go at this with an open mind - and this is enough for
MR. - One question before you go on. You said that you
would like to understand this better because there were more cases to come?
Are there many more like this one?
MR. PROCTOR: I don't think so.
MR. I don't know of any pending right now, really.
MR. Have we pretty well reached the end of the line, then--
MR. I wouldn't even broadcast in the DD/I we would
consider those with no overseas service. I've even had memos prepared for
me to go out, and I refused to do it -- after the experience. This is 25X1A9a
getting people--
MR. PROCTOR: Getting people excited--
MR. Which I think support point in this - -
and I'm partly at fault for putting this in. I studied the -case --25X1A9a
25X1A9a
I studied the =case - he was an OSI analyst. And I was really not trying to
put us on the spot here, or put - on the spot.
MR. PROCTOR: Let me just add this to what Mr.
said. 25X1A9a
We are not going to encourage anybody else to put in for it unless he does have
either his five years' overseas service or is so little short of the 60 months, and
there is so much other service that is so clear-- And even if was 25X1A9a
approved, we wouldn't put another one like this up, I'm sure -- wouldn't encourage
them -- unless the guy on his own said, "Oh what the hell - I'm willing to take
a chance on it. "
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MR. - Well, we have been playing with the idea of putting
an end to this by saying these cases must be submitted six weeks before the end of
June, and therefore the middle of May is the latest we will accept them within this
31 July memo -- 31 July is the date of Col. White's memo that set this up -- and
this would mean we would have only afther six weeks to go. We've actually
heard from the DDS&T - they've come in and said they're through--
DR. -: I've discouraged a number of them that had no tour
MR. -: Now the DD/ P may still have a few more coming but again, the nature of the whole Regulation is so oriented toward clandestine
25X1A99ervice that it's a little easier to reach for theirs.
MR.
I'd like to add to that, Harry -- so that Mr.
Proctor will know that other Directorates had their problems, too -- that we had
so much of it in the CS - we had messengers, analysts, registry people, coming
down to the CSPS group asking them if their case fit the 31 July letter, and it was
because of that that the CSPS put out that November memo that the Board members
have a copy of, in an effort to explain. to everybody: If you don't fall within these
guidelines, don't come down and bother the CSPS. They had to put out special
instructions just to take care of those people.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a DR. What I wanted to bring up, Harry -- because it's
not entirely clear -- I noted that has had 30 years of service and is age
54 -- wouldn't he be eligible for optional retirement? He can take a year's
penalty now, can't he?
MR. PROCTOR: But he doesn't get his annuity right away.
DR. _ When does his annuity start?
MR. PROCTOR: Ina year.
I wondered if he did consider this alternative?
MR. PROCTOR: Yes, I know he did. Well, I guess it's the
pressure of his personal requirement, as he sees it, for more money, his desire
to make more money, and pushing for a promotion -- which is, frankly, becoming
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rather obnoxious -- that led us to this position of saying better now than later -
than a year or so from now, or whenever it is.
MR. - I guess it's also fair to say that he does have a
job in hand now--
25X1A9a DR. E That's why I questioned the validity of (11)(c) here.
MR. But I have long felt a man shouldn't be penalized
by that. Maybe I'm wrong. He didn't have to disclose to the Board that he
has a job lined up. We have to look at it: Was the nature of his work such
that it would be difficult to discuss it with a prospective employer. Because he
could lose this job opportunity, and then try to get another one, and there it is.
MR. PROCTOR: I think another problem here also, as far as
this job -- and obviously it shouldn't enter very strongly into your consideration,
but it still bears some relation -- and that is that this is an employer who may
be a prospective employer for some of our other people, and I just would not
like the Agency flouted around as an organization that can't make up its mind,
and misleads its people -- and the next time an Agency employee who is going
to get out applies for a job there, they may feel - "Let's not even touch this --
because we don't know if he's going to come with us after we say come. "
MR. -: Incidentally, Karl won't be 55 until 25X1A9a
March of 1970 -- so it's a full year away -- and at which time there could be
a whole new ball game.
MR. PROCTOR: And obviously this is a better financial break --
I don't blame him for pushing it.
25X1A9a
MR. ~: Of course we initiated this with
MR. PROCTOR: Because of the pressure on promotion--
MR. - -- and he was in that first group - under Col. White's
MR. Can you just speak again to that 20 months--
25X1A9a
MR. 25X1C10b
MR. PROCTOR: This is on the second page of - 14 February
25X1A9a
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1969 memo - paragraph b. (1). I mean, we could probably get b. (2) and b. (3)
in there, too, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't know if you people
meeting almost continuously. So, this was one. And the other one is the work
he has been doing since September 1967, and will be doing until he leaves. This
comes to 60 months.
I'm not asking you to make your decision here in front of
- No, we wouldn't, anyway.
Does anyone else have any questions?
Ed, in your opening remarks I think you questioned
what criteria we had for considering overseas service--
qualifying.
MR. PROCTOR: No. I assume that most of the overseas is
MR. All overseas service is qualifying. I just want
to make sure you understand that.
25X1A9a MR. PROCTOR: I said I presumed there was no question about
overseas service.
25X1A9a MR. I just wanted to make the flat statement that
there is no question, ever, about the overseas service.
MR. Mike, do you have any further questions?
25X1A9a MR. No.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a DR. have just one concerning - the
analogy between what did and what did.
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MR. PROCTOR: Only that he worked on the Watch - - but I
don't think he worked on any of these task forces.
25X1A9a
MR. - No, -did not. He was at the National 25X1A9a
MR. ' And the Board weighed that--
MR. PROCTOR: Actually, the work on them was more 25X1A
involved, as it were, with clandestine work, COMINT work, and some real
operations, than the ordinary watch stuff.
25X1A9a DR.-
Well, one of our considerations has been that we
have lots of people who serve on these various watch activities of one sort or
another, and we have tried to avoid establishment of some sort of implication
that service on NIC or a watch committee is tantamount to eligible service.
MR. PROCTOR: This was quite different. This was a feedback -
back and forth - with collection and evaluation - and guidance back and forth.
MR. This is our problem, that we did give credit for
MR. You have a precedent.
MR. PROCTOR: Well, let me leave and let you people decide.
Thank you, Ed - - that was very helpful.
25X1A9a MR.
Mr. Proctor then withdrew from the meeting
at this point . . .
Emmett, you're rather quiet--
MR. -: I'm keeping quiet. I think it's a tough case
you're into here. I don't know what you can do about it, though, really.
25X1A9a
MR. -: Let me tell you -- I'll lead off -- I've had
dealings with - over the years, and I'm very impressed with Ed Proctor's
25X1A9a
new factor on the table here of - pushing for a promotion and their
speculation that this is going to sour the guy.
Yes - - that' s the one thing that would do it, for me.
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MR. And this fits
to a "T". No. 1, he's 25X1A9a
an emotional guy -- not over emotional, but an emotional guy -- as his
memos would indicate -- and if he gets a "cause" -- I've had to deal with him
with "causes", and I can well see the concern that Ed Proctor and
have here that if they continue to deny this guy this promotion which he feels
he richly deserves, then he's going to increasingly be less productive.
. . . Off the record . . .
DR. Well, we need 31 months.
25X1A9a
MR Proctor identified--
25X1C MR thing, and this project--
DR. The thing he's on now -- and I have very great
trouble with that. We have systems analysis going on all over the place.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a MR. Don't you start knocking it, Karl -- because when
I go back and read that- case--
25X1A9a MR. Do you want to take a trial vote--
25X1A9a MR. Ed Proctor made a pretty good point in terms of
his conversation with prospective employer, that the very thing he's
trying to get hired on is the type of work he is doing now and that he really
didn't feel he could fully explain it.
Remember the Bulletin? More and more I
find that people coming to the CS are citing that Bulletin - saying, "I read in
the Bulletin such and such. " I think it was the Bulletin that said if you can't
explain in sufficient detail - even that you weren't able to explain in general
25X1A9a
terms. Well,-explained in general terms that were sufficient enough
to get that prospective employer at least interested in talking to him about
employment.
25X1A9a
MR. _: If we were at the outset of this thing and we had
a lot of cases to come-- I really don't know, but I do feel that we're at the end
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of the line -- we've given it to some that are not a whole lot better -- and there's
a big management interest in it, and that--
MR. - You have to look at it with maintaining a certain
amount of continuity, too--
MR. The secrecy about this new job is what bothers
me more than anything else. Are you sure - isn't getting a nice job
with some contractor who has been dealing with this project that-has 25X1A9a
just been working on? -- because such a contractor would very well know what
this man could do--
MR. I think if there had been something like that, he
would have disclosed it. Of course it's going to be in the same area - systems
analysis.
25X1A9a DR. In paragraph 5 of his letter of 20 March, he
says, "I was finally successful in landing a good job" -- and at the end he
says - "I must act soon on my job offer. " There's no implication here that it's
pending or that it depends on his explaining more about his work here, or anything
else. And that's the uncertainty in my mind. He has got a job offer. No
implication in Jack's letter that it isn't a job offers And so, obviously, he
hasn't been hampered so far in not being able to talk about what he has been doing.
MR. - But you have to read all of it. He says, "I was
finally successful in landing a good job, it was to pay considerably less than my
salary at CIA. " Obviously he isn't going to accept an offer unless he has his
annuity - -
25X1A9a MR. But is it $500. 00 less but with prospects of
making much more.
25X1A9a MR. Is there an "y chance they might keep that
job open until next March?
25X1A9a MR.-: No, I think he had 30 days to decide, and about
20 of them are used up--
25X1A9a MR. By 11 April, I think it was - - 11 April was the
last day.
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MR. - Karl, I'll tell you, as I said before, I have
to be pretty well management-oriented to go for this thing--
DR. -: That would be the only reason.
MR. +0 Shall we see where we stand on a vote
right now? We need a nomination - I guess from you, Bob.
Well, I recommend that be placed in
MR. -:
the System and be permitted to retire not later than 30 June 1969.
MR. -: Do we have a second to that? (No response. )
I'm open to any other nominations. Or perhaps we need
more discussion -- but I don't know what else can be said about this case.
MR. -: I could almost second motion - - 25X1A9a
I really could -- if I were sure there wasn't something here that's going to
horribly embarrass us 60 days from now.
25X1A9a
MR. - Such as?
as the job-is getting can be 25X1A9a
25X1A9a MR.
.
directly related with what he's doing now, and with a few hundred dollars
difference in salary.
25X1A9a MR. -
question when he was here.
. . . Off the record . . .
Well, it's too bad you didn't ask Ed Proctor that
DR. E Else why does he have to talk about it?
MR. Again, for what it's worth, I don't really know
that it's terribly pertinent how much money he's going to get- -
MR.- Will that be the reason for turning it down, then,
that he's going to get too much money?
25X1A9a MR. ~ (Continuing): -- or, as I say, the fact that he
happens to have this job offer -- because he could miss out on this one and have
to look for another one.
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25X1A9a MR.
His primary motivation could be that he has
found himself one whale of an opportunity, got himself a job with great future
prospects, so he quickly wants to dash up and retire under the System and go
out of here with twice the money he has ever made in his life -- and, I don't
know - a lot of people with that kind of assurance might beat on our door, the
same way -- particularly if this is a job that's directly related to what he has
been doing.
25X1A9a MR. None of those problems bother me. What
I'm trying to do is look over his statement of functions again and just see if we
can't find something on which we can really and truly hang our hat and say:
This looks like it falls within the criteria that we've been using under the letter
of 31 July.
he says:
Now in paragraph 3. b. (9) in his memo of 14 February 1969,
"From 1961 to 1963 was involved in the preparation
of preliminary assessments of the results of overhead
photographic reconnaissance missions. Was called in with
other analysts at all hours of the night -- just as soon as the
first read-outs of the missions were made available by NPIC.
Helped make assessments that contributed not only to positive
intelligence but to operational missions. "
I'm just wondering if we couldn't get ahold of something there. On these first
read-outs were they in a position to call some pitches on what additional flights
were required?
25X1A9a
MR. - Well, he goes on to indicate that he '"
MR. -- for collection missions. It may be I
could get ahold of something there.
DR. - Yes, except that a lot of people do this kind of thing.
We had the same sort of thing with -- I think this was cited as part of his
25X1A9a
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MR. He needed the five years.
DR. This isn't a unique activity here.
MR. Karl, can you explain to me why you would vote
for the M case and the-case and not the-case?
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR. ~ Leaving out of it for a minute -- just 25X1A9a
taking- The reason I say that is because vas involved in some sort 25X1A9a
of clandestine operations going on over--
DR. - Yes, we had him in the IDEALIST Program.
As I said, I told What I didn't think he had a chance,
but he wanted to try for it so we went ahead and worked up the memo. I don't
recall the details of who nominated it, and who seconded it -- I'm not sure
that I nominated him at all - - I may have seconded him.
MR. - Whether you go along with it or not, Karl, this
has to be a Board action.
DR. - I admitted from the outset that- was a weak
case . And if the - case had come along at the same time as this-
25X1A9a
case has come along, I don't think it would go through. So to some extent
there is an element of timing in this--
MR. - And not being consistent under the 31 July memo --
because all of these are looked at under the 31 July memo.
DR. M As Harry put it, you draw a line--
MR. Murray, do you know specifically when we had
the = case?
25X1A9a MR. No. I'm not sure.
25X1A9a
25X1A9a
MR. W It was since the 31 July business.
DR. Back in the early days of -work here he was
in charge of our (Collection) Support Staff--
MR. That took care of the requirements--
DR. M It was requirements follow-up and providing
background for DD/ P.
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MR. E Only in collateral work--
DR. No, we were the first shop to have all the
(back-stopped), cleared people. So he had this responsibility in support
of clandestine activity. Admittedly that is not the strongest thing in the world,
but we found enough of that to build the case on it.
. . . Off the record . . .
25X1A9a
MR. In
memo of 20 March 1969, if
paragraph 2 is a true statement of what happened it would appear quite clear
to me that management was probably behind the Admin Officer's suggesting
this to right off the bat. I'm very heavily influenced by the
management consideration--
25X1A9a
MR.- Well, it is that.
25X1A9a
MR. I think that's the reason we're trying to find
something- -
25X1A9a
DR.- There would be no 31 July memo if it were not
for the management consideration.
25X1A9a MR. Well, I'll second it for you.
MR. Thank you.
25X1A9a M s
essr
MR. All those in favor (
raised their hands, indicating in the affirmative. )
All those against?
and 25X1A9a
MR. I'll vote if I can look this over first --
because I'd like to find a few more months here. I'm not voting against it --
I would rather vote for it - - but I would like to find an additional period of
10 months.
MR. All right -- let's find it.
MR. W Mike, what are you rejecting of what Proctor
No, I want to go along because of Mr. Proctor's
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statement. I think we ought to find it within the purview of the cases we have
decided in the past, where we felt that we had found something on which we
could hang our hat.
25X1A9a MR.
Well, we reached on = but we have reached
on this involvement with the Clandestine Services in evaluating a lot of these
things - -
25X1A9a DR. W Right. Collection support- -
MR. And I thought this was what Ed Proctor was reaching
for on this systems analysis with this mathematical model -- it was constant
working with the Clandestine Services to confirm through their sources or
COMINT sources the validity--
MR. Which paragraph is that?
MR. Paragraph 3. c.
MR. His present functions.
MR. ind you, Proctor said it's badly written
really meant. 25X1A9a
MR. This is roughly a year and a half.
MR. If you take the period Mr. was 25X1A9a
talking about, that's two years there. It's in paragraph (9).
MR. - And you don't have to worry too much about any
others -- because he's the only one doing it.
25X1A9a DR Bob, what kind of times are we talking about
here in paragraph b. ? The first one, I take it, is about a year?
25X1A9a MR. I put 10 months down there. Proctor said
about a year.
25X1A9a MR. I think he said 10 months.
25X1A9a MR. - Then in the summer of 1962 he went back on it
for about three months.
25X1A9a MR. If you take 3. b. (1) and 3. b. (9) you have
plenty -- you have 34 months. There are two years in 3.b. (9).
ta'
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MR. - First of all, I'm assuming that Ed Proctor
was giving us a perfectly legitimate story here -- he was saying: I could
25X1A9a
tell this potential employer that-was a systems analyst, and I could
tell him that he was a mathematician, but I couldn't begin to tell him the full
import of his work without getting into all these other things. Ed said he
found it very difficult to explain to the employer--
25X1A9a
MR. And the employer finally said: "Now you've
25X1A9a
told me all this, but you haven't told me what he does. "
MR. - Now, Karl, I know we're reaching, but it seems
to me we are all looking for handles, and we've been given one by the ADDI
on this one. Again, I'm very much management-oriented on this one.
25X1A9a MR. Let me ask for a little more indication--
Now, what are we talking about here? Are we talking just about satellites,
or are we talking about recce flights as well -- and if that isn't collection of
intelligence, I'll eat it!
MR. Of course it includes recce flights !
MR. course it does!
25X1A9a MR. I can see paragraph (9).
25X1A9a MR. I admit I'm bothered by the fact we are not
terribly consistent. I'd say the-case, other than the fact that he had a
little more overseas service, was based pretty much on overseas reconnaisance
25X1A9a 25X1A9a
activities - - which is what has, too. In the case, he had
performed 24 months and two days of overseas qualifying service.
(Reading from Minutes of Retirement Board Meeting
on 4 December 1968)
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DR. ... (inaudible)...
MR. That's beside the point. All of these guys
do this. We don't want to get every requirements officer--
MR. I'm saying, if we had drawn this line before
E I'd be much happier--
DR. We would all be happier !
MR. But we are now a little bit pregnant, and it
does seem we are a little bit inconsistent, it does seem we have gotten the
Agency and our whole system into a pretty awkward situation. It's all of
these facts -- plus - I'm sure we could write up a summary on
that would sound no different than-
MR. - To the person not knowing the situation, it
sounds great. We don't have 3, 000 analysts leveling requirements -- there's
a regular procedure for doing this -- and there's the collateral and the special
stuff. ... (inaudible) . . .
25X1A9a
DR. - Well, if you think you can get up a good Minute,
I would with great reluctance go along.
MR. - I'm sympathetic, Karl, with your point, but I
think we have backed ourselves into a corner on this because of these previous
judgments. I just hope this is the end of the line--
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I do, too! I agree with you 100%, Harry.
Because I'd hate to see another one come along
25X1A9a
saying - "Now this is just like
25X1A9a
DR. I'll switch my vote, and then that will make it
a majority vote.
I'll go along.
I'll go along.
on't forget words like "clandestine collection"
and things like that when you write it up.
MR. And I'd pull out some of Ed Proctor's words
there, too -- some of them were awfully good.
Motion was then unanimously passed for
granting membership in and retirement under
the CIARDS . . .
25X1A9a MR.
Next, Item A of the Agenda. One employee -
who appears to meet the criteria for designation
as a participant in the System and has completed 15 years of Agency service.
25X1A9a MR. I move we designate and offer him an election.
25X1A9a DR. Second.
. . . This motion was then passed . . .
25X1A9a MR.
Four employees -
who have
completed more than 5 years of Agency service and appear to meet the criteria
for designation as participants in the System.
I move we designate.
Second.
. . . This motion was then passed . .
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MR. - Now we have four voluntary retirements -
MR. I move we consider favorably the four
requests for voluntary retirement.
25X1A9a DR.
This motion was then passed . . .
MR. I'm delighted to have you here for the next
case, Emmett -- and I'm sorry we don't have Mr. Meloon here, since this is
one of his cases. Actually, I was going to do some inquiring on this--
MR. George (Meloon) called me on it.
He is 54 years
old and has 29 and a half months of overseas qualifying service, and he is
agreeing that if we find some domestic qualifying service for him, of some
30 and a half months, he would be willing to retire on 30 June 1969. It's
interesting in his case that by December of 1969 he will also have the 55/30.
I understand that he is back on the job -- isn't that right,
MR. Yes -- and notwithstanding anything that is
implied in paragraph 2 of Coffey's memo, is able to and
desirous of staying on until 30 June. That is what George Meloon called me about.
The memo implies that he is through right now - - or something like that -- but
actually Tony does want to remain until June 30th if this is approved.
Well, I'll start the ball rolling by saying that it
looks like straight Headquarters' logistics duty to me.
MR. The only thing I can add on this -- because I had
been involved some years ago -- Tony was a crackerjack Log man who went
overseas and George looked upon him primarily as part of his overseas cadre.
Tony does have a very serious family medical problem. About five years ago
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another overseas assignment came up, and the possibility of sending him, and
he said he was no longer willing to go overseas. It caused Logistics' manage-
ment a great deal of trouble -- because they needed him overseas. He was
personally able to go but he could not take his wife with him, and he could not
leave her behind. So from management's point of view the man is an obstacle
in their overseas staffing system. And that's about it, I think.
25X1A9a MR. I read it as a less strong Directorate statement
here which says: (Reading from Bannerman's memo dtd 11 Mar 1969)
"I am not able to evaluate from this position the
merits of the service claimed for consideration as 'qualifying 25X1A9a
service, ' however I do concur in Mr.
nomination to the CIA Retirement and Disability System
if the Retirement Board can rule favorably on the noted
'qualifying service.' I would also add m concurrence to the
Director of Logistics' point that Mr. early 25X1A9a
retirement would assist the Support Directorate in resolving
personnel management problems currently existing at his age
and grade level. "
MR. Well, if it were not for the statement that
Emmett made about the trouble management had, I think this case would
have been a stronger case than the-case. I felt this man, starting
out, met five requirements for participation in the System, out of the six --
he just needed to have the 60 months. Early in his career he performed
overseas qualifying duty and it seemed to be likely that he belonged to that corps
of people in Logistics that was destined for overseas on a regular basis.
MR. Absolutely!
MR. And he had done a tour - - as - had 25X1A9a
done. He had had three TDY tours in the course of his career -- which-
hadn't done. He was assigned to the CS and worked five years, as Chief of
Logistics, supplying and being much closer connected with clandestine activities.
He's also a management problem -- as I got from the record -- in that they are
over ceiling -- it would help them to get down to ceiling. Adding this all up,
I felt that maybe we could put him in the System.
25X1A9a MR. What did I say that undercut that, Mike?
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MR. You said he refused to go overseas.
MR. He couldn't go overseas -- this man was
prohibited from taking his wife overseas -- his wife has a condition that
is such that her Doctor says, "Your husband must not leave you. "
MR. Oh! Well, I'm sorry.
MR. It's an impossible situation. He couldn't
take her with him and he couldn't leave her here.
25X1A9a MR. Then he still belongs to that corps--
I'm sorry -- I thought you said he has refused to go.
MR. -: Emmett said he balked, but he didn't mean
he refused--
25X1A9a MR. He couldn't go -- he couldn't take her --
MR. I think having found it o we
could find it in this case.
DR. s a 31 July case.
after you've
Precisely! And only as a 31 July case.
25X1A9a
Maybe that is the benefit of the-case--
es, that's true, you find it hard to say "no"
crossed the bridge on
- and yet if you try to 25X1A9a
relate the problem as far as describing his work, where are you?
Not very far.
MR. Any other discussion on this? or do you want
a motion, Harry? I move we admit to the System and
25X1A9a
permit him to retire 30 June 1969.
MR. I second the motion.
. . . . This motion was then passed . . . .
MR.- This is quite typical of what we've gone through
from time to time -- we're now conditioned to - "Let's help management" -
and a couple of cases get dragged in along with it.
25X1A9a MR. I think the management problem comes through
25
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more clearly on this case, to my personal knowledge, than in the - 25X1A9a
case.
25X1A9a MR. - This is part of the basic concept of the 31 July
memo -- which maybe we lost sight of a little bit, as we went along, between
25X1A
the case.
George Meloon doesn't help the case a great deal
by saying - "While by no means anxious to lose the services of this senior
logistician" etc. But really there are little intangibles in here that do help,
and that is that the guy started off going overseas and then through no fault of his
own he became unable to go overseas. In a sense, it comes a little closer to the
Congressional intent that people who in one way or another have burned themselves
out from this overseas duty, therefore should be allowed to move out.
. . . Off the record . . .
25X1A
25X1A
to retire.
The next case i
He just wants in the System. He doesn't want
I have a letter here which I would like to read 25X1A
because it says what I would want to say. It was written by
Now, John, I think this is as good a time as any to really
come head to head with this thing. I'd like to go back to the origins of this
Board -- and Emmett, of course, knows better than I how we tortured with some
of these basic concepts as we tried to get going. At the risk of boring you a
minute -- because I think it's very important that we make some sort of policy
determination at this point - - we started out by* saying: Let's take care
of the qualified people with 60 months of overseas first, and all the others we'll
red-line, so we can get on with this job of going through thousands of people.
We did that and got a lot of people in the System.
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`SECREt.
Then we subsequently-- Incidentally, we put out a
while he
Bulletin which tried to reflect what we thought -- and
cited the Bulletin, didn't really cite it completely, because at that time
the Board approved the contents of this Bulletin, which says:
25X1A
"5. e. lso contains in subparagraph b(ll)(c) a
criterion of 'qualifying service' based on the performance of
duty 'on a continuing basis which would place the individual at
a distinct disadvantage in obtaining other employment.. .
Application of this standard requires determinations based on
conditions at a time when the individual seeks to enter other
employment and on retrospective consideration of his Agency
career in light of current conditions. "
Again, that did reflect the opinion of the Board at that point.
Subsequently we were troubled with people at the 15 year
review -- we had one that we had put out of the System and then he said -
"I'm ready to retire" - and we said, "All right, put him back in, and retire
him. " So we then said: Let's take a better look at this domestic qualifying
service when the time comes for the 15 year review, and then let's take a
good look at (a) and (b) -- which is the hazardous part of it, and the practice
of stringent security and tradecraft procedures to protect cover and so on.
Now, (11)(c) - we have thus far been saying we will
consider that when it's time for the guy to leave. I really believe that if we
don't there could well be a thousand DDP'ers - DDS'ers combined, who could
say - "Well, I've got three years - or I've got four years - and why shouldn't
I get in the System" - either as a point of pride, as it seems to be with this
man_ or - "My wife is entitled, in event of my death, to another
three and three-quarters protection. " And then we could be besieged with
a great number of cases way before the time that it's truly necessary. They
could go out again, and therefore obviate the whole consideration. It's possible
that the whole nature of their work will change in the later 10, 15 years of their
25X1A
service. This is what bothers me with
Now let me read Emmett's memo to you.
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4 August 1967
MEMORANDUM FOR: Deputy Director for Plans
THROUGH: DDP/OP
SUBJECT: Designation of is a Participant in the 25X1A
CIA Retirement and Disability System
REFERENCE: Memo for Director fr DD/P dtd 18 Jul 67, same subject
1. Before forwarding your request that be
designated a participant in the CIA retirement System at the present time, I
think you should have the benefit of my views on this case (and similar cases
which have arisen and will arise).
25X1A
2. I agree that may indeed be eligible for the CIA 25X1A
Retirement System should the contingency ever arise that such designation
would serve a useful purpose and has a need for the special benefits
provided by the CIA Retirement System.
3. As I see it, after has attained age 50 and has
completed 20 years of Federal service including 10 years of Agency service
and at such time as he might desire to be retired early or you may desire to
retire him (i. e. before completing 30 years of Federal service creditable
under the Civil Service Retirement System) it would be perfectly reasonable to
consider placing him in the CIA Retirement System. It would only require that
the Director favorably determine that his early retirement is in the best
interests of the Government and that the nature of his duties for at least 60
months constitute qualifying duty.
4. In the interim, there appears to be no basis for designating
him as a participant in the retirement system and no particular advantage in 25X1A
being so designated. Judging from the presentation made, the nature of his
duties would appear to qualify him under paragraph 11. c of Headquarters Regulatioi
at Oft such time as he is faced with the prospect of finding other employment. 25X1A
5. To designate at this time would be utterly contrary
to the established administrative concepts and procedures for implementing
the CIA Retirement System. There are doubtless many hundreds if not thousands
of employees who can present identical or highly similar reasons for their immediate
designation although perhaps with less justification. To do so, however, would be
contradictory to our commitments to Congress. 25X1A
6. I do think that should be emphatically disabused of
his feelings that failure to be designated is any reflection upon his status as a
professional intelligence officer. The simple fact is the CIA Retirement System
was only authorized for a small portion of the professional intelligence personnel
of the Agency -- most specifically for those who, regardless of circumstances, do
perform services hazardous to life and health in the conduct or support of
intelligence operations abroad. Provision admittedly was also made for those
whose duties require the development and use of esoteric skills and knowledge who
would be at a distinct disadvantage in seeking other employment. It is on the latter
basis that I suggest may indeed qualify at such time as he is faced with
the prospect of seeking such other employment. The administrative system 25X1A
established for the CIA Retirement System contemplates waiting until this
contingency is a known and imminent fact.
/S/ Emmett D. Echols
Director of Personnel
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Again, it's a concept we either have to accept or 25X1A
reject at this point.
Why, Harry? - if the man contends that he
falls not within the (11)(c) but he could argue for Section 203 of the Act - so
specialized because of security requirements as to be clearly distinguishable
from normal --
But you can't read the Act without due regard to
the Regulations.
Well, it looks like we all agree there's no action
What are you going to do with it?
I'll go back to him --
Not to the Director--
No. I'm going to suggest to him that if he
would like to-- Well, that's the way it seems to me. And if they want
to bring it up again to the Director, that they write to the Director. I'll give
them the guidelines of our #&decision--
Actually the letter from Tom Karamessines to
the Director of Personnel on 26 February 1969 -- the most recent letter --
that's the one you ought to answer, I think.
Yes. Right. But I do think we have to again
point out to Tom K. -- because he might have lost sight of this -- that we don't
see it under (11)(a) or (b), therefore it can only be considered under (11)(c), and
we couldn't consider it under (11)(c) at this stage. It looks like he might have
a good case at the point of retirement when he's seeking another job. But to
bring him in earlier, with the very few facts available, we just can't do.
I don't see how you can say you don't see it
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under (11)(a) or (11)(b). It's just that there's no basis for making a judgment.
There's no information on which to make a
determination on (a) or (b).
And (c) seems untimely.
Yes.
Okay.
Next case -
54 years old--
HeTs not going out by 30 June.
a Security officer,
last letter - dated 3 March -
It Z. Due to unexpected Graduate School expenses, it
would be a hardship to retire at this time. However, if the
application for participation in the Agency System were approved,
the undersigned would still plan to retire as of 30 June 1971. "
Right. Now he just wants in the System - -
but he still plans to retire in June 1971. 25X1A
Now this case appeared before the Board very
briefly once before, and we were asked to pull it back because apparently they
were confused on which way he was going. And I think when we considered
it initially it was on the basis that if he could get into the System he would get out
in 1971 -- and at that time we had some difficulty with it and we said if it were a
30 June one, we could do something on it.
25X1A
Now, I'll tell you, the way I looked at the case - 25X1A
the=case was about as well documented a case as you could get, because
it took it year by year and set out specific periods of time which you could add
up and say - "All in all it does look like this man = - who needs only
34 th - And we found it, finally, after a lot of soul-searching.
s
mon
25X1A
I may be over-simplifying here, but in this
case after I started to add it all up I said to myself - "What does this boil down
to in his paragraphs g and k?" First of all, there's an awful lot of overlap
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in periods of time, where he could well be getting double credit - - but you
can't be sure of it. In his paragraph g he is saying: "conducted numerous
investigations in recognized high-crime areas, such as Harlem, during which the
Agent was unaccompanied because of cover considerations -- more than two
years between 1951 and present. " Maybe if he is on a routine basis subjected
to this sort of thing -- and we satisfy ourselves that it was a dangerous type of
investigations -- then maybe he has two years -- and, as I say, that's not for
sure yet -- but assuming that he did.
Then his paragraph k says:
"conducted numerous special inquiries and participated in other
functions in support of overseas and covert activities, including
clandestine meetings. During OIJW these assignments, the
Agent not only was exposed to grave danger but was frequently
compelled to work in confined quarters for long hours without
time for proper rest, food or opportunity for necessary relief --
it
more than five years between 1951 and present.
Again, the same period of time - five years. I don't know what that is.
25X1A
I wonder if in the paper that he originally
submitted -- which was evidently sterilized by the Office of Security -- whether
there might not have been something more specific there. Because it leaves
us with too many generalities here, it seems to me, to be able to determine
was he doing this in support of clandestine operations abroad.
acted as his guard for a period of a month and a half -- and we could add up
those periods and we knew; just what was taking place and we knew it was
in support of clandestine operations abroad. 25X1A
I don't get that in this ase. Now, is it
possible that that original paper might have specified some of these things
that would have made it clearer, and would it be possible to get ahold of that or
look it over? Now it sounds as though there are some very sensitive matters
in there -- and of course we don't need that -- but just enough to show us that it
was in support of clandestine operations.
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On both of your points (indicating Messrs.
it seems to me if they prepared it in the same fashion 25X1A
in which the Mase was prepared--
has sort of disclaimed his ability
to do this, by saying: As you can understand, the nature of my work was such
that I couldn't keep files and records -- so I can't document all of this--
25X1A
There's nothing wrong with the way it was
25X1A
done in the~ase, and he didn't identify the individuals, and so on. 25X1A
The fact that we bought the case in 1966,25X1A
I think is also significant. It was very early on -- a trial case. 25X1A
In Emmett Echols' memo of 20 October 1966
on the-case, he said:
"2. During its review of this case, the Board noted
that while there was enough of clearly qualifying duty to constitute
a basis for its favorable action, there was also listed a variety
of types of duty the nature of which was not considered to
constitute qualifying service. Therefore, it was the
unanimous recommendation of the Board that you be advised that
nomination was approved under the Board's adopted
philosophy that it was acting upon a case, judged on its individual
merits, and that it was not to suggest a precedent that all of the
duties performed by~ during the period as outlined were
considered qualifying. "
This was accorded affirmation by Col. White, who said
in his memo dated 18 October 1966:
"1. I have reviewed and discussed with the Director the
attached papers concerning the nomination of
25X1A
as a participant in the CIA Retirement and Disability
25X1A
System. I understand that this is the first case considered by
the CIA Retirement Board in which part of the qualifying service
is domestic.
2. It is agreed that this case meets all the necessary
criteria. It is important that we proceed with the utmost care
when domestic service is credited for any part of the 'qualifying
service.' I therefore agree wholeheartedly with the action of the
Board in approving this case and in stipulating that it not be used
as a precedent.
3. In addition to the careful consideration which I am sure
the Board will give every case, as an added precaution until we
gain further experience with the System, please forward each
individual case involving domestic qualifying service to my office
for informal review before final action is taken. "
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SECS.
It's because of this last paragraph (in Col. White's memo)
that we're doing this to this day. And admittedly, we have come a long way
since then, but at this point you could see how-- And really,
it's part of the problem you may be having with this - - but starting from this
hard-fought first case, and the others that have come along, you can see how it
has been difficult for us to move on over into this never-never-land of this
31 July letter.
Well, if I correctly sense the feeling of the Board, I think
that at the very least I'm going to have to go back to Mr. Osborn and tell him
we need some more details to support the true time that was spent in
qualifying duties.
Now it may be time -- because Bannerman hits me on
this with some regularity, each time saying that back in the days when this
System was aborning, he had always hoped that these (resident) Security
officers as a body would be brought into this sort of thing.
25X1A
That is true. That is very true.
That they would be looked upon as the Jea FBI
and Secret Service types who have earned for themselves an early retirement.
25X1A
Now he realizes the Board has not yet reached that point -- that the- case
was specifically cited and didn't set the precedent for approving every other
such case -- but he is am anxious to get that first case that begins to open the
door for all the others.
Now he actually called me on one - it was a guy that
was past 60, and I said, "Bob, don't -- you won't make it on this guy -- it's a
lost cause. " So he actually had written a three page memo on him, and he
tore it up right in front of me and said - "Okay, I'll cave on this one, but with
these guys you can't say they did this once a week, or they did this three times
a week -- but the fact is they're there-- " Maybe Bannerman has something
he could give the Board that would be helpful -- and maybe this is the case to do
it on. Let me go back-nd tell him the Board thinks there's not enough
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information on this case-- 25X1A
I'd put it a little differently -- I'd say it
25X1A
isn't well enough organized to give us a good feel. Maybe the'way it was 25X1A
done in the_ case wasn't the best way, but it was - - 25X1A
There are some implied parallels with the =
case that just don't hold up. There isn't enough information here to make 25X1A
them hold up.
case was a very good one for me to
Well, I might say that that was not his first try.
If had been accompanied
by a statement that he would retire by 30 June--
That's right - by 30 June. Now that may be
something for him to think about if we end up turning this down.
Well, there's this other difference, too -- the
case was an Office of Security prepared memorandum -- it wasn't =
himself saying, "I did this - and I did this. " In this case it's simply
saying, "I did this. " And really, you just look at the beginning
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
of the case, and it's very orderly -- it's saying when he was hired, what
he did, and all the rest of it -- assertions by the Office of Security that he did
these things -- and then the chronological listing. To me this is a lot stronger
25X1A
presentation than a man himself writing an emotional, rambling memorandum.
25X1A
But the first-memo started out something
Yes, I'm sure it did.
And in the _ case you will notice he
indicated periods when he did not perform qualifying duty -- and then he picked
it 4 up again when he did.
Yes, the =case was a good presentation.
All right, I'll go back to Osborn on this one.
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
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SEC 1,1E I
The next case is I should tell the
Board I spent a couple of hours on this case trying to bring myself to the point
where I probably would have faced up to a legal determination and lost--
But here was a guy that, to me, was hired as a civilian, and had been out of
But you asked me to pick up on this--
hen we added it all up and projected this guy
through to the end of his tour, he only needs four months -- and he did a tour
in for example, so I asked Mike to check--
If he wants to retire, I'd have no problem with this.
Go ahead, Mike.
I talked to a fellow by the name of Bob
who was out there all during the period that- was there -- and
this chap said =was the man who when he arrived he was Deputy Chief
of their entire Training show but shortly after he arrived he became the Chief
of the whole Training program for JMWAVE. That involved training in
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Mike, I don't think any of us have any trouble
25X1A
with this.
25X1A
was in charge of the whole show.
25X1A
Also, they hired and trained ~nstructors, and with those people
25X1A
was known under an alias constantly.
No problem here.
lived under a cover.
Mike, you're over-selling. I think all of the
the
Board members are satisfied that we have found/four months of qualifying duty.
Do we have to go to Col. White with this?
If we do, we don't have any paper to back it up.
We can ask him to give us a paper in a hurry,
and zero in on the JMWAVE duty -- and tell him to hit this training - the
paramilitary,
_ living under cover--
And it was over a two-year period.
25X1A
e only needs four months.
My point is, if we give him the whole period
now, then he knows he's in and could retire-- 25X1A
I'd be inclined to say the Board projected his time
through the end of his tour and found that he needed only these few months. 25X1A
You see, himself said he would be shy a few months at the end of his
present tour if he isn't credited with this military service. Now we're going
to say we didn't find his military service qualifying -- because the law is
quite clear on this, as the Deputy General Counsel has pointed out on a number
of occasions -- but we do feel that we have found the necessary additional
qualifying service in his JMWAVE duty. 25X1A
Then we don't put him in the System until
the end of his present tour.
he has the qualifying service.
That's right. We are just assuring him that
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We will go on record that as of June 1970
he will have the 60 months.
I don't think we have to go through Col. White
now. I don't think there is anything we have to do right now other than assure
him that he has the qualifying service -- but the Board's finding will be
documented here, so we don't undercut him when the time comes- 25X1A
I understand contact has been made with FE
to try to go to the field- - But we don't need that now, so why don't we
stop that--
Just tell them to write up the paper on
the JMWAVE duty.
Yes, tell them to go ahead and write up the
paper on the JMWAVE duty, so that it will be ii file along with the
documentation on the Board's action today, so that whex case comes
up again we can see that we considered it and we guaranteed him that he has
the necessary qualifying duty.
And then something will go out to
in answer to his inquiry.
25X1A
25X1A
Yes -- help them write it -- and I'll coordinate
on it - I'll initial off.
is the next case -- a Commo man. I
did try very hard on this guy to see if he has anything. But he really doesn't.
He is strictly a cryptographer. And he and OC are both satisfied that he
must move out of the System at this point in time.
Now Commo did have another case somewhat similar to
this one, but they had him somewhat ready to go on orders before the 15 years
would be up -- so I told them when they sent that one up to just assure us that
at that time he was under orders. Because we're okay when they're under
orders to go overseas.
Well, I think we're ready for the motion.
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I so move.
Second.
. . . This motion was then passed . . .
25X1A
25X1A
a pretty easy one, too.
MR. MITCHELL: I might just add on this one that they have a
group of 11 officers in this unit -- and I checked on all 11 of them. Four of
them have a medical hold on either themselves or their wives, so that they
can't go. Four of them have just returned from overseas. One was this
man - - that they had planned to send to but because of other
pressing requirements they had to take him out of this assignment. One man
is getting ready to go to So this is why they've asked that
be kept on.
It seems to be a very legitimate operational
requirement. And I'm happy that DD/P sharpened it up further by saying
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
25X1A
just a two-month extension, rather than six months. And I'm going to sharpen
25X1A
it up a little more by asking them to please return in time
so that he can retire on 30 June -- not bring him back on the 30th of June
and say they need 60 more days. They have to bring him back early enough
so that he can be retired on 30 June. This one is for only 60 days, so we
don't really have to go to Col. White on it, but I think it's the type where we
might well go to him anyway, because it's truly an operational requirement,
and there's plenty of time, and so on.
So I guess we're ready for a motion on this one.
I move the request for extension be approved.
Second.
This motion was then passed . . .
The next one is
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This is the only man that ever brought us
That is why I put a note on this one, Harry --
because when I read this I thought to myself: We're the luckiest
people alive - i is really sincere about this.
Emmett, what did you mean--
There was an effort to fire this man at one
point, and he went to the Court of Claims, and we had to back off.
Was it before that fellow here in the District -
what's his name?
No, not the District Court. It was the Court
of Claims -- what is known as a plaintiff's court. And they were finding
that we hadn't quite followed our regulation, etc., so we withdrew, in effect.
I've heard various reports that there were
No. There were three separation cases
that went to the courts, that we won. But this is the only case that didn't,
in effect, come to a final decision, because we backed off because it was going
to come to an adverse decision.
I have a feeling this case will be back here
next year, too, if we extend.
That's another thing here. The first plea is:
I want an extension. The second plea is: We need him. Which is which? 25X1A
I must admit, I didn't know any of the background
on this - - I really didn't. But yet I found that within the DD/I they're being
fairly liberal with people between age 60 and 62 -- and they really need him --
so I couldn't get awfully excited about this one.
In the interim period -- and I'm sure the soft
file would show it -- there were several episodes where his behavior, etc.,
was outrageous, but we didn't dare touch him - because it would have been
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interpreted as being a prejudicial, retaliatory action on our part. So he got
away with murder for years.
When he got his promotion to Captain in the
Naval Reserves he just walked into my office and said, "I want my promotion. "
I said, "What are you talking about? " "When you're a Captain in the Reserves
you're supposed to be a GS-14. " He's a real bulldozer -- just give a little
bit and he'll plow right through you.
nd Jack Smith really mean
~~~~~Ues, yes. That graphics over at
NIC had always been handled by an Air Force sergeant, I think, and when he
left they had this requirement there for a graphics type. Now Gerry does
have a lot of ability--
Indeed! He is very talented.
And he works best by himself -- because being
a guardhouse lawyer, he has great ability to get his co-workers stirred up to
the high heavens. So when this assignment was finally worked out -- and
this was after his reassignment from OCI to OBI, because Graphics was
moving -- they worked up this assignment for him -- and God! we haven't 25X1A
heard a word from him since -- and he works like hell -- and
is just delighted with him. And
on his own part, in the thing.
memo is really a sincere effort, 25X1A
25X1A
And Jack Smith did concur. 25X1A
Jack knows the case quite well -- maybe not as
well as Ting Sheldon.
Yes, if is really sincere about this thing, I
think we're very fortunate--
Well, from what has been said here, I think
that if he had wanted two years --
Of course you never know what has
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i n the back of his mind. I figure his black book is much more complete than
anyone else's. And I think Gerry does a lot of moonlighting on the outside --
he's in various activities.
Well, I think we're ready for a motion.
On the strength of endorsement
by his memo here, yes.
Are we doing it on the needs of the service?
Yes, because there is no other basis.
He never got a five year notice. It came up at
a time when instead of five years they got three years--
Mike, just the idea that he's entitled to a 20 year
The date he asked for amazes me. It wouldn't
have surprised me at all if he had said he wanted to stay on until he was 70.
I think we have a motion and a second for a
one year extension for
. . . This motion was then passed .
I have one thing I'd like to report for the
information of the Board members. I talked with yesterday,
and he, as you might suppose, feels he has won a moral victory now. He
feels, however, that the reasons he gave for requesting an extension are as
valid for a four or five year extension as they are for a one year extension.
So he's not making any commitment about whether - - He will believe that
one year that was in Red White's letter, but he says, at the same time, he is
looking around and he "hopes" he will be out of here before the end of that
one year extension- -
25X1A
25X1A
That's good to hear. 25X1A
-- but he says he hasn't decided, finally, on
what course of action he may be taking.
. . . The meeting adjourned at 3:45 p. m. . . .
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