EXPERT ON THE CIA

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: December 12, 2016
• Document Release Date: March 25, 2002
• Sequence Number: 9
• Publication Date: November 6, 1973
• Content Type: TRANS

RADIO 'TAppR W0e.sq W/04/03: CIA-RDP75B0038OR000600010009-0
1723 W. HOWARD, EVANSTON, ILL. 60202, 869-0811
41 EAST 42No STREET. NEW YORK, N. Y. 10017. 607-5100
PUBLIC AFFAIRS STAFF
PROGRAM TOMORROW SHOW STATION WMAQ TV
NOVEMBER 6, 1973 - 12:00 AM CITY CHICAGO
TOM SNIDER: Out guests do not ride around in Mercedes 600's or
Rails Royces - - I hope our next guest will not dispute that - -
his name is Andrew St. George and at the beginning of the program
this morning I told you. that he is a news reporter and what
I consider to be a better sense of the word - - a man who gets
out and looks at things that are happening and tries to deduce
for himself - - and his readers, listeners, or viewers, why
things are happening the way they are.
Mr. St. George is more than a bit of an expert on the CIA.
He has covered their operations in this country and beyond the
continental border for some years - - going back to the time
of the activities in Cuba back in the early 60's - : and Mr. St.
George its a pleasure to have you with me on the program this
morning -- - I think......
ANDREW ST. GEORGE: It's good to be here this morning.
SNIDER: What is this with the CIA Now we had this man,
Salvador Allende, who lost power in Chile some months ago - - who
was later killed - - what part did the CIA play in this - - con-
sidering the fact that over the past year there have been allega-
tions about the CIA involvement and American expansionism going
underway in that part of the world.
ST. GEORGE: Well there's no major event and certainly the
change in Chile has been a major event without measurable CIA
involvement.
SNIDER: Without the CIA?
ST. (GIORGE: Without the CIA. The CIA is always involved - -
it is today quite probably the principle instrument of.American
foreign policy - - so that we can reckon with CIA involvement
of one kind or another - -
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B0038OR000600010009-0
7
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03: CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
- 2-
SNIDER: What part did the CIA play in the military coup d'etat
in Chile?
ST. GEORGE: Simply setting the policy - - and the policy began
with a division of 'American aid - - traditionally American aide
in Chile has been getting (unclear': because of heavy accent)
When President Allende came to power a great deal of the overall
generally it was thought the aide to the military was continued
because (unclear) so that an intimate relationship developed
between the military and the CIA - -
SNIDER: The Chilean military.
ST.-GEORGE: The Chilean military and the CIA.
SNIDER: Would it ever happen where people from the CIA - -
operatives within Chile itself - - would meet with Chilean
military officers - - or military officers of any other foreign
government and say - - we're going to help you get rid of your
president - - does that kind of thing go on? Do they have
clandestine meetings and stuff like that?
ST. GEORGE: It does happen - - such meetings do occur - - they
occur probably more frequently than most Americans think.
SNIDER: We don't know - - you see we aren't told about it.
ST. GEORGE: No the country really does not know - - and these
meetings can be decisive - - they very often furnish the spark
the catalyst, the trigger - - for the kind of changeover that
happened in Chile - - They are tar more important (unclear)
than the American Ambassador - - on formal State meetings - -
that what the CIA man says in confidence is often the decisive
event..
SNIDER: How does this organization then of which so little
is known to the American people become so enormously powerful
in the implementation of American foreign policy? Because
certainly the people have not given their consent or approval
to this kind of operation we don't know about it. The Congress
certainly hasn't said the CIA will be a strong arm agent of the
American foreign policy - - from where does its power derive?
ST. GEORGE: It's hard to say. When you talk to people on
Capitol Hill - - people in Congress - - they often seem startled
by it all - - the rest of the people - - it's really amazing
how little people know - - and row little people in Washington, who
are supposed to know - - really account for and really do know.
(unclear) This is a mysterious process - -
SNIDER: Does a president of the United States know the
power he wields with an organization like the CIA?
ST. GEORGE: (unclear) and quite often the power flows not
from the president to the CIA, but from the CIA. to the president.
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
SNIDER: But can a president say to the director of the CIA,
I want something done about Allende - - I want something done
about Trujillo - - I want something done about Castro - - does
the president know he has that kind of power?
ST. GEORGE: Yes - - I suppose he does.
SNIDER: As for that tool - - does he know that he has a
rather effective tool?
ST. GEORGE: I wonder - - if presidents have felt about the
CIA in a variety of mixed ways - - as you know one of the last
things President Johnson said was that it was (unclear) and that
gives you the feeling that LBJ.was worried about the CIA throughout
his presidency - - and I think he was.
The relationship between the president and the CIA is a
curious one and this is another odd thing about the organization.
It really needs clarificaion.
SNIDER: It has been especially curious in the present
administration, which is what I would like to get to after a commercial
here - -? and we will continue with Mr. St. George and discuss the
CIA and its involvement with the current administration after this.
SNIDER: We're speaking here this morning with Mr.'Andrew
St. George who we had identified as an investigative reporter
and newsman - - and let me just define for you some of the things
that he has covered on a free lance basis - - the Bay of Pigs in-
vasion, the Algerian crisis of the 50's - - the trouble in the
Congo - - military intervention by this country in Santo Domingo,
the death of Che Guavarre(?) in Cuba - - the assassination of
Trujillo in the Dominican Republic - - the list is long and involved.
And he is currently working on a book, which will get at what
Mr. St." George calls the root of the whole Watergate mess. And I
suspect that several chapters in that forthcoming book will be de-
voted to CIA involvement in the Watergate - - the relationship be-
tween the present administration - - Mr. Nixon et al, and the CIA.
I would like to discuss that please.
ST. GEORGE: Well we do feel it's at the root of Watergate,
and we do feel that the way the whole intelligence-establishment
what we call the national security beauracracy has grown - - prolif-
erated -- - taken over a great deal of Washington. Taken over an
awful lot of functions that most Americans really don't know about.
That this had a lot to do with. Watergate - - That it was really
at the bottom of it.
SNIDER: For example?
ST. GEORGE: Well for example it created the kind of an at-
mosphere in Miami from which these Cuban Americans sprang - -who
carried out the actual burglary. It created people like E.I-Toward
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
-4-
Hunt - - shaped them - - and it shaped people like G. Gordon Liddy,
who tried to imitate Hunt in,many ways - - become the secret
agent of fact and fiction.
The CIA not'merely manages this country's affairs to an amazing
extent - - it also sets a mood to ah amazing extent. And we feel
that this mood and this secrecy and this conspiracy - - led straight
to Watergate.
ST. GEORGE : Well it led to Watergate in a number of ways - -
When we look back on it now, the idea to bug Larry O'Brien's
home, especially it you consider that half the president's cabinet
might: go to jail for it - - seems like kind of a silly idea.
ST. GEORGE: Dumb is really the word for it - - but in the
kind of a national flood - - especially the kind of Washington mood
that the CIA has created - - it seemed like a natural thing to do.
I buc,r you, you bug rae - - we bug him - - everybody bugs everybody!
Yes!
SNIDER: Yes - -. and that's what's wrong with the country - -
we're all bugging each other!
ST. GEORGE: That's precisely right - - in a literal sense.
SNIDER: From what you say the CIA has then created an atmos-
phere of paranoia?
ST. GEORGE: Well that is one of the things.. What we have to
fear is paranoia itself - - the only thing to be paranoid about
is paranoia - - precisely right!
SNIDER: You mentioned these two guys - - E. Howard Hunt, and
G. Gordon Liddy - - involved in the Watergate conspiracy and the
break in and one of those gentlemen - - Mr. Hunt:, I believe identi-
fied himself as the mastermind behind the break--in at the office
of Ellsberg's psychiatrist here in southern California in 1971,
where he had a red wig and and a mask on. What is an agency of the
United States government doing passing out masks and wigs to people?
ST. GEORGE: All I can see is that this is all part of the
mood - - part of the state of affairs that we have arrived at - -
the growing domination and the growing influence of the secret
machinery over national affairs.
SNIDER: But does the CIA have a. stock of wigs - - and masks
and paraphernalia like this? .I mean it almost sounds like a comic:
opera house that they're running -.- passing out. the stuff to guys,
to go out and do burglaries!
s'r. GEORGE: It does for the rest of us, but it's real to them.
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
-5-
That's their life.
SNIDER: How do you know these things?
ST.'GEORGE: Well we investigate. them - - we have some - -
SNIDER: Who is "we"?
ST. GEORGE: The media I guess - - and "we" is a good question,
because it takes courageous editors as well as reporters - - but
I think the editors don't get enough credit. At the Washington
Post Dan Bradley hasn't got enough credit for the superb job
the Post did - - and if I may say so - - at Harper's Bob Schnerr(?)
Lou Lapham(?) and Larry Froinlish(?) - - especially courageous
editors - - who have made it possible for us to investigate the
CIA the way it should be in depth.
SNIDER: Yes, for example in the current issue of Harper's
Magazine, I believe it is - - or one of the recent issues - - you
have a rather extensive piece on CIA operations. And it does take
some courage to print that kind of thing - -
ST. GEORGE: Especially on the editor's part - -
SNIDER: Is there any fear on your part that they will exert
reprisal upon you or your editors for publishing this information?
Saying these things on a program like this - - talking about it.
ST. GEORGE: They have been known to do that - - I have an
editor shot out from under the other magazines for similar projects.
There is a risk. They don't talk about it very much but it exists
and we are all aware of it - -
SNIDER: Why then would the Congress - - elected representatives
of the people - - tolerate this power in the hands of an organi-
zation like the CIA? Why would there not be more congressional
investigations - - certainly they must read the papers back there
and watch the television programs - - why would they not be more
concerned in your estimation?
ST. GEORGE: I personally would say that the Congressional cover up
for the CIA is a national shame. I have no other word for it. It
really is a mystery - - a bafflement as we say - - and although we
suspect that we know some of the reasons for it - - it's a disgrace.
That's the only word for it.
SNIDER: All right. We will continue here with Mr. St. George
after this announcement.
COMMERCIALS
SNIDER: Mr. St. George, you made a rather serious allegation
here - ?- calling the cover up of the CIA in Congress a national
disgrace. Can you be more specific than that?
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03: CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
ST. GEORGE: Well I can only be more specific by saying that
what the press discovers Congress could also discover, more quickly,
and more easily and. more thoroughly - - but it never has. Very
few of the meaningful discoveries about the CIA have come from
Capitol Hill - - and that's the disgrace.
SNIDER: Is it possible there could be a feeling on the part
of some lawmakers and on the part of administrators in the executive
branch, that there is a need for an organization like the CIA, and
that even though it does conduct itself with excess on occasions,,
that must be forgiven because of-the need for the organization
to begin with. I mean that we have to have-an organization like
that.
ST. GEORGE: I susoect there's a feeling on Capitol Hill that
they better not fool with the CJ:A because it may kind of explode
in their faces. There is a need for an organization like the
CIA - - the way it was originally conceived in the National Security
Act of 1947 - - which set it up? There is no need for an organi-
zation like the CIA is today.
ST. GEORGE: A radical reorganization - - and that would have
to come from Congress in fact.
SNIDER: Now there's a new director of the CIA, Mr. Colby I
believe?
ST. GEORGE: (unclear) Colby - --
SNIDER: How do you see his role? Would there be any possibility
that, he may be aware of the need for some revision of the mission
of the CIA?
ST. GEORGE: None of the changes that director Colby has
made so far sound encouraging. They all sound ominous. He has
cracked down on what is called the thinker in the agency - - the
analyst - - the scholar - - the estimators - - Colby is known for
his specification programs - - in Vietnam a similar program was
carried out - - in Guatamala -
SNIDER: Still for all the seriousness we attach to the CIA,
they've blown some things. The E. Howard Hunt thing - - I don't
want to keep going back to the :=right wig and the mask, but I
mean, we laugh about this sort o:= things - - they do goofy things.
I'm sure in your experience you've seen them commit mistakes that
were hilarious!
ST. GEORGE: I would laugh at the CIA more easily if I didn't
remember - - and I'm old enough to remember as a boy - - how we
laughed at Hitler on the way to power.
SNIDER: Boy, you're really serious about this - - I mean you - -
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03:, f IA-RDP75B0038OR000600010009-0
ST.. GEORGE: I'm very serious about it - - serious and concerned.
I think I mentioned to you that I turned off my own telcpahone - -
a year ago when I started work on this book - - because 1was
absolutely certain that the phone would be bugged and while I
could control some of my own conversation, I could not control
the conversations of others who might call me - - so that I lived
and worked without a telephone.
SNIDER: But if it's so serious and if it's such a danger,
how could they.bungle a simple thing like tapping the telephone
or bugging the telephone of Larry O'Brien in the Watergate Hotel?
.SST. GEOR E: WP-11 ~-~nz~-k3r F
althoua'h h~ Lanni nn of T -?rr.~'Bri en's phont-
by- ~,ras not rn 7 ly bUn led
the CIA, it w s ht,xigle by this White F{ntt~t, rntt ~n3 f-}h -
even some; ap.eculation th- i1 t~,,_ .l ~,~G ran
ba th. as it_may - their b6ncrl ea d1n not- _
Z h b13ng1_eS are the 1 ttledeta 1s that com They
don'- .e.aasure me__= ? ? .
SNIDER: Tell the naked lady
my -- - -
ST. GEORGE: It is not a story - - it's a fact - - I was shooting
a story in Miami. for Look Magazine, andI left my hotel room to
shoot some film at the airport and partly to-let the girl to whom
I had given my room key - - to change for our next photographic take.
She went upstairs, undressed - - the CIA men watching me in a rather
casual matter of tact way in which we assume we are watched and followed,
saw-me drive to the airport in my little convertible - - and went
upstairs with his friend to exchange my phone for a bugged phone, be-
cause that's a simple way of doing it - - You simply lift the regular
phone out of the hotel room and you put in a telephone that already
has a tap and a bug in it - - but the poor girl whom I had told to
change was standing naked in front of the mirror - - as these two
men entered without knocking - -
There was a scream - - there was confusion - - there was hell to
pay. They went into the bathroom, had a little conference and
walked out without a word - - This sort of thing makes life in-
teresting - - but I'd rather do without it! .
SNIDER: Probably the lady who was standing before the mirror
in the hotel room without her clothes on - - would just as soon do
without it tool
You see little incidents like that make me wonder if the CIA
is really to be worried about that much - - on the one hand you
say they're killers and on the other hand, they walk in and
get involved in a caper like that. Maybe I'm just not taking
them seriously enough.
Are they involved in my life in any way? Are they involved in
the lives of an average American citizen in any way?
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B0038OR000600010009-0
 Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0
-8-
>T. GEORGE: They are involved in the lives of average American
citizens to a far greater degree than Americans realize - - and you
see that's really the problem. This organization has become an
enormous power - - we don't really realize that. They think of it
as a little group of specialists who are listening in on the phone - -
SNIDER: (unclear) Sure -? - tucked away in 'Virginia - - down
a little dirt road without an awful lot of publicity - - no big
sign on the front of the building - - that says CIA headquarters or
is there - - I've never seen it.
ST. GEORGE: No there isn't. There's a sign saying Langley
Water Station, or something - - but they are important. They
used to ao around with false press credentials saying - - I'm from
UPI, or - - Z,o they _set up theirown press ,g= called AIP - -
Rd haC1. k
that was _ a? whey , ctidng ~>~ dicer--a+ +ha rTA . They were able to
open many of the (unclear) there would be AP, UPI, AIP, ).iut nrp was
CZ.A.
SNIDER: You've got an awful lot of initials there - - I'm sure
I can't follow all of them - - the CIA operated its own press agency.
--S.ir_P-SY1.C~?
ST. GEORGE: J_t'S own
SNIDER: Is there any way - - to correct these alleged abuses?
ST. GEORGE: There's always a way to correct abuses - - but the
way is not always easy and I for one - - have no prescription. It's
up to Congress - - it's up to the people - - to some extent it's up
to the media - - even up to people like you - t We must keep trying.
That's about all we can say at this stage.
SNIDER: Yes except I don't. want to get to the state - - none.
of us do - - where you have to take out your telephone - - and
you :nave to be afraid to go down the street - - or you have to
start getting paranoid that somebody is looking over your shoulder
every minute of the day. I don't want to feel like that - - and
I'm sure you don't either. Yet you've gone through this now for
some years - - and you've taken your own telephone out!
ST. GEORGE: It gets to be a. nuisance - - my little boy's
social life is upset - - his dates can't call him - - it gets
to be a real nuisance. It inflt:.ences your life in more ways
than one..
SNIDER: All right. Mr. St. George thank you for being with
us here this morning, and maybe some day they'll quit bugging us!
ST. GEORGE: I hope so.
Approved For Release 2002/04/03 : CIA-RDP75B00380R000600010009-0